EVE Search - Which is better of these

Search EVE-Online forums for:

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Which is better of these

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page

Author	Topic
Lance Mercer	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:09:00 - [31] Originally by: General Sadistis Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Myrmidon is one of the worst battlecruisers, and loses in every way to Brutix (for Gallente), or the Drake/Harbinger (for BCs in general). ARE YOU RE-TAR-DED... See Merin I'm not the only one with this sentiment to you!!!
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Lance Mercer Now I can see why your seeing nothing but long range hacs, your a 0.0 warrior in your spare time when your not EFT warrioring it! Well I would love for you to come to lowsec, anypart of and find out how much of your theory works, with no bubbles. Actually I'm a lowsec pirate, and it works just fine. Quote: Can I tell you that your idea of the ishtar being forgetten after the speed nerf, is well silly, becuase after the speed nerf combat at 100km+ will nearly cease to exist, since HICS and dictors will no longer be able to zip across the field to tackle. CCP's goal as has been stated is to bring the game to the small skirmish point again, like it was back before the HP buff.. do you remember that merin? Small gang roaming ops in 0.0 still involve large quantities of Ishtars, dont play! And guess what nerfed speed and close-range combat means: goodbye Ishtar. I hear there's this other drone ship, kind of like an Ishtar, except it gets more tank and more neuts. If only I could remember what it was... Oh yes, it's called the DOMINIX. Try using one post-nerf. Quote: I understand the brutix and deimos have the same dronebay, but did you notice that I also stated the "normal" fittings... Brutix=GANK Deimos=Gank,ECM drones. Most of your brutix pilots have the idea of if I can kill it first then I WIN! Most Hac pilots have the idea, well if there smart, of let me kill it in time before his help arrives, then GTFO! the HAC pilot actually involves logic in his action, the brutix pilot invloves too much testosterone in his diet! Dear god this is just stupid. Can I have some of what you're smoking? Seriously? How the ** can you possibly think "but BC pilots suck, and HAC pilots are smart" is anything even remotely resembling a good argument? I guess I'll just have to accept your concession about the ships, since you're so desperate that you have to make this wild overgeneralization instead of making a relevant argument. Quote:** Your a falcon pilot.... what he hell are you doing then talking about ships you never even fly. We all know that falcon pilots are permantelly stuck to there puss-mobiles! Well, I thought your previous "argument" was bad, but in the very next paragraph you somehow managed to come up with something even more painfully stupid. I will wait eagerly to see what brilliant wisdom you can come up with next! Quote: Oh and just to clerify I didnt say you and you're interceptor buddy and carb kill the ishtar I said cerb vs. ishtar! No interceptor buddy, cuz if that the way you want it then my arazu friend sneaks up on your cerb and damps it till it cant even targat that ugly nose on its face. Oh and also damps that inty till it is useless, cuz with all properlly fit recons if it cant remove more than one foe from its field using its proper ewar then it might aswell go home! And now you get the point: solo PvP is for losers who are too honest to betray a 1v1. Once you start bringing in multiple ships, the tactics I'm talking about become even MORE effective. Quote: And if I dont get the arazu then I guess the web on the ishtar will make short work of that inty, or maybe its the nuets in its highs.. I dont know but either way the inty tackle idea of an Ishtar is silly, you remember what the ishtar is right? A drone boat, that means is packs warriors aswell!!! Do you even know what an interceptor is? How exactly is your Ishtar going to tackle an inty going at over 10km/s at 25km? You do know what the range on medium neuts is, right?
Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:41:00 - [33] not gonna lie.. it's amazing what merin can do with her WERDZ... get's everyone and there cat all kinds of ****ed off. I beat many brute pilots in my deimos cus like it or not, that range bonus is actually really effective for the deimos if you actually use it. And i'm talkin about the ones who are smart and fit correctly and have skillz. In gang the deimos just does outperform the brute. it really is too bad that the Ishtar sux compared to domi.. but hey, I fly Diemosts... you gotta love merin's adamant composure
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 06:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Vanthropy not gonna lie.. it's amazing what merin can do with her WERDZ... get's everyone and there cat all kinds of ****ed off. I beat many brute pilots in my deimos cus like it or not, that range bonus is actually really effective for the deimos if you actually use it. And i'm talkin about the ones who are smart and fit correctly and have skillz. The problem is the Deimos' range bonus really doesn't add all that much range. Not only is it a falloff bonus, but it's a falloff bonus to very short range guns. Even with Null, you aren't going to be doing very much damage outside of web range, so you're stuck getting in close. And at that point, it's just a question of damage/tank vs. damage/tank, a fight the Brutix wins. Sure, that Deimos might be able to use it effectively against a Brutix, if everything goes absolutely right, but that's only going to work against other blaster boats. Even AC ships will have no problem out-ganking a Deimos in falloff, while lasers and missiles will just rip it apart. Compare this to the range bonus on the Zealot. An optimal bonus added to the longest-range close-range guns means the Zealot can put out a lot of dps from far outside web range, with enough speed to really make use of that extra range and stay away from a closer-ranged target.
Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.05 07:04:00 - [35] well if we're talking about the standard gank fit Brutix.. [Brutix, Fittings.] Reactor Control Unit I Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Stasis Webifier II Sensor Booster II Warp Disruptor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Heavy Neutron Blaster II Empty Empty Empty Vespa II Vs. a fairly standard gank fit deimos.. [Deimos, 1600mm] Armor Explosive Hardener II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Prohibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M [empty high slot] Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I Hammerhead II x5 the deimos will kick it's ass with like a lot to spare.. albeit more expensive.. these are the standards we're talking about and those are the facts.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.05 08:59:00 - [36] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 05/10/2008 09:00:45 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Muad' Dib Flew geddons before they were the new FOTM, flew them when everyone hated amarr, and amarr was worse than how Tempest is now. Geddon can fit a MWD, and so can the Raven - i think i said that, but fitting one means that you give up too much, and the OP was talking about solo pvp. No MWD = comedy killmail. The fact that your argument for the Megathron depends on the target NOT fitting a MWD is the exact reason you DO fit one. Quote: MP II with scorch hits at 45km, DHP II with scorch hits at 42km, falloff is 10km with trajectory analysis 5. Tank does not impact the range you hit, as you might think, and the top range for MP II is 121km optimal with Apoc, BS5, and 3 tracking mods fitted, and Scorch L. Rigs. Learn to love them. Quote: Most close range BS fighting takes place at station, gate, jumpgate, either way, a warpable object, and at worst you will start off at 45-50km. For battleships, this means 4 cycles of MWD followed by letting yourself carried by inertia but doesn't matter because i was refering to sub-bs class. In which case combat is within WD range. Unless your target, not being an idiot, MWDs in the opposite direction, forcing you to chase. And guess what that means: zero transversal, and very low closing speed. That is, if your plated Megathron can even get into range at all. Quote: Cerberus at 250km is bloody useless unless you fight in very laggy fleet environments. Travel time is so bloody huge that your better off in anything else. Not to mention that you need 3 targeting mods to reach 250km. Two SB IIs. Learn to fit your ship properly and train some skills. And a 250km Cerberus is hardly useless. Even if you just force the target to warp, a Falcon/Scorpion that warps out is no longer jamming your fleet. And the Cerberus is one of two ships (the other is the Eagle) that can do that while still being decently mobile for a roaming gang. Quote: So what if in a 1;1, Deimos is maginally worse than the Brutix. No 2 pilots are the same and nobody fits as well, Deimos has higher kin/therm, and that's the damage the Brutix does; Deimos has better agility, speed, and even range. Who cares about a 1v1 vs. the Brutix. The point is the Brutix is the better choice of ship in general. 99% of the time, given a choice of flying a Brutix or a Deimos, I'm taking the Brutix. Quote: You need to get your nose out of EFT numbers and maybe fly some ships, maybe you will understand why there are some thing the Deimos can do, and the Brutix simply cannot do. Been there, done that, recognized that blasters suck. I didn't always fly Caldari, you know... I don't think you use logic anymore. You compare close-range setups with long-range setups, you compare setups efficient in fleets in 0.0 to those used in low-sec small gang. MWD is not that required and in many cases very hard to fit. As for kitting with battleships, don't make me laugh, you won't get that outside of battleship 1;1's with hardly real pvp setups. Kite in battleships died long ago and it's final nail in the coffin came with armor rigs killing speed and an emphasis on plates over active tank. 90% of time, i prefer the Brutix too, but one of the big reasons for this is because i'm cheap and i fit the barely necesary on it - no rigs. I'm gonna start flying the Deimos soon though, just because i have some setups ideeas and way to use it. PS: That apoc setup has optimal rigs btw, feel free to try to get more than 121km with scorch L, and i don't mean a marginal 2-3 km increase. PPS: I like how you try to convince ppl of how awesome Cerberus and Eagle are, yet your last Falcon loss was against a Vexor. :) --- I smack just for myself.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 09:37:00 - [37] Originally by: Muad' Dib MWD is not that required and in many cases very hard to fit. MWD is mandatory. The fact that you don't understand this severely undermines your credibility here. Quote: As for kitting with battleships, don't make me laugh, you won't get that outside of battleship 1;1's with hardly real pvp setups. Kite in battleships died long ago and it's final nail in the coffin came with armor rigs killing speed and an emphasis on plates over active tank. You completely misunderstand the the concept of kiting. You don't kite to stay completely invulnerable, you do it to keep your range advantage as long as possible. It's easy to arrange for all of your battleships to spread out and keep focused fire, while making it very difficult for blaster ships to get into range fast enough to be useful. It doesn't have to be 100% effective, the damage/EHP difference between a blasterthron and a Raven/Armageddon is pretty low, so even a moderate delay in getting into range will kill the Mega. And who cares about plates/armor rigs. What is important is relative velocity, if everyone is equally slow, my point is just as true. I'll let you see if you can figure out why. Quote: PS: That apoc setup has optimal rigs btw, feel free to try to get more than 121km with scorch L, and i don't mean a marginal 2-3 km increase. I know, but your Armageddon setup doesn't, and that's the ship I was talking about. You claimed the Armageddon/Raven only have 45km range, I pointed out that you are off by a fair bit. Not that it really matters anyway, as 45km is more than enough range to make a blaster ship useless. Quote: PPS: I like how you try to convince ppl of how awesome Cerberus and Eagle are, yet your last Falcon loss was against a Vexor. :) Lag and overview glitches, ever hear of them? I got scrambled by a ship that didn't flash red on my overview (I had to dig the game logs out to find out that it had actually joined the fight), and therefore didn't bother jamming. The Cerberus and Eagle are awesome because they can kill a Falcon without needing the help of game bugs.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.05 10:48:00 - [38] This thread... Despite being rather, er, tetchy and rigid about it, Merin is broadly right. The Deimos is an utterly pointless ship because both Brutix and Myrm do more DPS with better tanks. It really is as simple as that. The Cerb and Eagle are top-class HACs because they do things that cannot be done by not only BCs, but also other HACs.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.05 11:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Gypsio III This thread... Despite being rather, er, tetchy and rigid about it, Merin is broadly right. The Deimos is an utterly pointless ship because both Brutix and Myrm do more DPS with better tanks. It really is as simple as that. The Cerb and Eagle are top-class HACs because they do things that cannot be done by not only BCs, but also other HACs. And this is a legitimate point. In spite of the squaking (especially regarding the Cerb), most HAC's operate in a very different fashion than the other medium class ships. The Diemost however is simply nothing but a blaster boat. Sure it's got some extra bonuses and puts out face melting damage for a cruiser but it suffers from all the same flaws as other blaster boats to achieve that. At the end of the day a blaster boat is nothing but guns away from a horrible death - it's quite literally a do or die ship. There is no magic to making it work or not work - you burn as hard as you can to get close, then you open up with every ounce of firepower you have and hope for the best. Looked at in that light, where success or failure depends on a thousand circumstances outside of your control, the Deimos becomes an unattractive ship when compared to it's lower tech, cheaper and yet equally (and arguablly better) effective BC cousin.
n3oAnG3l	Posted - 2008.10.05 12:09:00 - [40] WOW.... It seems to me both sides are making valid points,I love the deimos and ishtar but i have never used another hac so i can't comment. As to the OP i would say the best to use would be the myrm is a decent ship imo and cheap easy to fit, check out battleclinic loadouts you will get good setups thier.

Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Gypsio III This thread... Despite being rather, er, tetchy and rigid about it, Merin is broadly right. The Deimos is an utterly pointless ship because both Brutix and Myrm do more DPS with better tanks. It really is as simple as that. The Cerb and Eagle are top-class HACs because they do things that cannot be done by not only BCs, but also other HACs. And this is a legitimate point. In spite of the squaking (especially regarding the Cerb), most HAC's operate in a very different fashion than the other medium class ships. The Diemost however is simply nothing but a blaster boat. Sure it's got some extra bonuses and puts out face melting damage for a cruiser but it suffers from all the same flaws as other blaster boats to achieve that. At the end of the day a blaster boat is nothing but guns away from a horrible death - it's quite literally a do or die ship. There is no magic to making it work or not work - you burn as hard as you can to get close, then you open up with every ounce of firepower you have and hope for the best. Looked at in that light, where success or failure depends on a thousand circumstances outside of your control, the Deimos becomes an unattractive ship when compared to it's lower tech, cheaper and yet equally (and arguablly better) effective BC cousin. which would mean that a conceivable niche is either solo or small gang pvp where the diemost will be able to break most gate camps, catch most victims, and run away from most other stuff.
Mutabae	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/10/2008 23:44:47 Hyperion, by process of elimination. The Deimos is spared the title of "worst HAC" only be the fact that somehow CCP found a way to make the Muninn suck even more than the Deimos. Under no circumstances should you ever fly this ship. The Myrmidon is one of the worst battlecruisers, and loses in every way to Brutix (for Gallente), or the Drake/Harbinger (for BCs in general). The Megathron is impossible to fit compared to the Hyperion. Now, this should not be taken to suggest that the Hyperion is actually a good ship, but it's the least-bad of the four you listed. If you absolutely insist on flying a non-Dominix Gallente battleship for some bizarre reason, the Hyperion is the least likely to generate a comedy killmail. Highlighting your utter fail. Almost all of what you say is totally wrong. Are you that inept at fitting/flying Gallente ships, or are you just dense?
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.05 15:31:00 - [43] Edited by: BiggestT on 05/10/2008 15:32:40 Edited by: BiggestT on 05/10/2008 15:32:25 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Muad' Dib MWD is not that required and in many cases very hard to fit. MWD is mandatory. The fact that you don't understand this severely undermines your credibility here. Shhhhh Merin, The more ppl that dont fit MWD's the better for me, so i can catch them in my (!)1000(!)ms nighthawk of pimping doom. Besides Merins total lack of inter-personal skills and unfortunate trolling tendancies, Merins argument is flawless here... Awesome EVE history
Mr Ignitious Gallente R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:18:00 - [44] Merin is right. Personally I rather enjoy her brutal honesty. Merin has even gone out of her way to highlight the "valid" arguments that were actually quite invalid. Someone said that it was ridiculous comparing dps of long range to short range ships. Actually, its not ridiculous when you realize the long range ships are dealing nearly the same dps as the close range ships. So to the dear old OP, I'd recommend the hype. Why 1. Deimos is bad. Why? extreme short range glass cannon. This will be the end of you in any 1v1 situation, and more so in larger situations. 2. Myrmidon is nice, however I assume you're talking low sec. If its low sec, then there is to high a probability for gates to be an issue, which means drones are toast. 3. Megathron (if in range) is ok I guess, however buffer means a lot of hope that you can out last them as well as repping after a fight. That really isnt my thing. 4. Hype, the winner, because it being a battleship still gives it a fair amount of inherent hp to buffer with, accompanied with a nice tank and nice dps. Its low reliance on drones is another bonus. Repping in 1v1 or 1v2 or 1v3 I think can be more lucrative because even if you cant tank the damage at first, once you make that 1v3 a 1v2 your chance of surviving gets that much better. Now if you want to pick a ship thats NOT on that list, the Geddon, Abaddon, or Raven are all great choices imo =)
aggi345	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:33:00 - [45] Thanks for all the posts guys. Some were helpful and others were interesting . I've decided to go use the Hyperion (might use the Myrm a little as well because it is cheap and fun in my opinion to fly). My question is how is it best to fit the Hyperion. My current fit gives me around 60% in all resistances in armor. I have 20k armor and Ion II guns with 2 magnetic stabilizers II and a hybrid collison rig helping but only 1 large armor rep II. I like the setup but my question is whether 20k armor is enough (i like have a lot of armor and good resistance) and is 1 large rep enough (it gets a huge bonus with my bs lvl 5)
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.05 18:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 05/10/2008 00:42:36 Originally by: William Caldon You know, if your unhappy with Eve, QUIT. Quit posting such hateful stuff about ships. You've put so much negative stuff on these forums its a wonder your happy at all. You misunderstand completely. I am very happy in EVE right now. My decision long ago to give up Gallente and train Caldari has paid off wonderfully. It's not my fault the rest of you can't handle the fact that your ships suck. Merin 4 president -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!!
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.10.05 19:08:00 - [47]
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.05 19:16:00 - [48] This thread delivers in sooo many ways. LowSuck vs 0.0 fit fights are always funny as shit.
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.05 19:23:00 - [49] Wow, how many people here actually get decent 1v1 fights on a regular basis? Honestly, I don't. I face mostly gangs, oten outnumbered. Range advantage means nothing when you've got tacklers with you, which tends to be the case. If it gets even a puny rifter to put web on its target for a cycle, it's enough for a blastership to get within range of it, use its own web and then the deed is done (although I'll admit that the damage bonus of blasters is not enough to truly compensate for their horrible range, especially when popular amarr ships are the damage bonused ones). you want to know what advantage a deimos has over a brutix : base align time of around 10s for a deimos, 16s for a brutix, and that counts a lot more than tank and gank if you fight outnumbered on a regular basis because a deimos has a chance to survive where a brutix will get tackled and die. Get out of EFT numbers and see in which situations you can take advantage of your ship's strength. This subject has been beaten to death even before the existence of tier2 BC. Stat-wise, a HAC going toe-to-toe with its BC equivalent will lose because it's inferior in all aspects except resists and mobility. You know what, vagas are inferior to other HACS in all aspects except mobility. Still it's hugely popular. Maybe because sometimes being able to travel in hostile territory means something. Maybe because pilots have recognized this mobility as a huge asset and actually use it to pick their fights and fly smartly. Awesome dps means nothing if you can't apply it to the target, and awesome tanks doesn't mean much either if you can't escape the enemy and get swarmed.
William Caldon	Posted - 2008.10.05 19:39:00 - [50] Ignore Merlin, he seems to bring doom and gloom to every post someone makes. He has no concept of ships except that they don't pwn everything. He wants a titan that can do everything. Just ignore him.

Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:28:00 - [51] Well, in order to follow on my last post and give advice to the op. don't pvp in a Bs if you have little pvp experience, start with something that allows you to pick your fights and GTFO when the big hostile gangs try to catch you.
aggi345	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Vathar Well, in order to follow on my last post and give advice to the op. don't pvp in a Bs if you have little pvp experience, start with something that allows you to pick your fights and GTFO when the big hostile gangs try to catch you. examples would be nice. I've always been in it till the end but i've been looking into faster more agile ships
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:58:00 - [53] Honestly, depends on the type of pvp you're after. - Will you be pirating against NPC fitted ships? - Will you join a militia? - Will you join a 0.0 alliance? - Will you join a merc corp and do empire wars? - Obi wan Kenobi Honestly, different situations require different ships, and that's what some narrow minded pilots face to realize.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:34:00 - [54] Originally by: aggi345 Originally by: Vathar Well, in order to follow on my last post and give advice to the op. don't pvp in a Bs if you have little pvp experience, start with something that allows you to pick your fights and GTFO when the big hostile gangs try to catch you. examples would be nice. I've always been in it till the end but i've been looking into faster more agile ships Cruisers are pretty much the best bet. They have far more combat potential than frigates making them useful for something beyond the suicide tackle. They are incredibly inexpensive to replace again and again. They are quick to align and escape should things go wrong, and the worst case scenario is you lose about 3 million isk. BC's are more of an "Advanced" ship. They aren't much faster than BS when it comes to outright speed/align, and most of them are constructed along the same theory of tank/gank. They are fairly inexpensive to replace but not nearly as much as cruisers. Generally speaking if you go with a BC, the Tier 2 is probably superior for just about any role you can come up with.
Bayushi Kitsuke	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:44:00 - [55] Merin has won this debate by far. The main highlight is that on 1v1, range wins especially if both targets are going near the same speed (pretty much always). In classic warfare, only light cavalry easily kills range units. Which the closest to this case is the Minmatar. Gallente reminds me of heavy infantry and chasing Caldari is like chasing longbowmen. I'll be surprise if the foot soldiers ever get close. Just putting it into a different perceptive.
Vanthropy	Posted - 2008.10.05 22:05:00 - [56] Merin always wins this debate.. it's her debate. ofc the bigger ship that's cheaper = the better option when the more expensive, faster ship is trying to fill the same role as the bigger ship.. therefore, if you want to fly a deimos with plates and trimarks... don't, fly a brutix instead. If you want something that won't die to every gate camp, fly a deimos
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.06 08:34:00 - [57] Originally by: Vathar Range advantage means nothing when you've got tacklers with you, which tends to be the case. If it gets even a puny rifter to put web on its target for a cycle, it's enough for a blastership to get within range of it, use its own web and then the deed is done (although I'll admit that the damage bonus of blasters is not enough to truly compensate for their horrible range, especially when popular amarr ships are the damage bonused ones). Actually, this is where range advantage matters the most! Once you bring dedicated tacklers into the fight, your dps ships are no longer limited by the 24km warp scramble range. Instead of trying to stay in a narrow area between 15-20km away (allowing a safe margin on both web range and losing point), those Armageddons/Ravens/etc are free to use their full range advantage. Once your Megathron gets webbed by MY Rifter, the fact that you webbed my Armageddon doesn't really help you when it's 50km or more away, and hitting you for 1000 dps. Quote: Get out of EFT numbers and see in which situations you can take advantage of your ship's strength. This subject has been beaten to death even before the existence of tier2 BC. Stat-wise, a HAC going toe-to-toe with its BC equivalent will lose because it's inferior in all aspects except resists and mobility. And this is the entire problem with the Deimos: as a blaster boat, it's required to go in to point-blank range and slug it out with the target. This is the exact situation where a BC's advantages over a HAC are most effective, a straight-up comparison of gank/tank vs. gank/tank, and the BC is always going to have more of both. Compare this to the Zealot, where the (relatively) long range of pulses and a 50% range bonus allow it to really use its mobility advantage and stay out of range of the target's return fire. Quote: You know what, vagas are inferior to other HACS in all aspects except mobility. Still it's hugely popular. Maybe because sometimes being able to travel in hostile territory means something. Maybe because pilots have recognized this mobility as a huge asset and actually use it to pick their fights and fly smartly. Unlike the Deimos, the Vagabond doesn't have to fight deep within web range. Once a Deimos enters the fight, it either kills everything or dies trying. And in that kind of fight, you want the superior gank/tank of a BC or BB. Quote: Awesome dps means nothing if you can't apply it to the target, and awesome tanks doesn't mean much either if you can't escape the enemy and get swarmed. Congratulations, now you understand why the Zealot/Cerberus are good HACs, and the Deimos sucks. The Zealot/Cerberus can easily apply their theoretical max DPS to the target, while using their superior range and speed to get in and out of the fight at will.
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.06 14:02:00 - [58] Edited by: Vathar on 06/10/2008 14:02:36 This is somewhat boring, and I'm not sure I'll lose hours pointing the obvious. If you stop reasoning with theoretical max dps applied at given range you might actually get your head out of a place where the sun doesn't shine. Multiple pilot engagements: I won't go into too much debate over multiple pilots engagements as there are many variables, but Having a ship dealing 1kdps 50km away isn't really useful either when the puny rifter dies. That's the great thing about blasterboats, once they're in range, they tend to tackle too, whereas a zealot sitting 50km can just watch the target say goodbye once the tackler is dead. Now we will be stuck on a debate about which is the best tackler, which is beside the point. Too many IFs to be productive on either side of the argument tbh ^^ BC VS HAC some genius pointed out the obvious and repeated that 1v1, a HAC loses to its BC counterpart, and that's entirely true, pretty much like said BC will lose trying to beat its repective BS big brother at the same game. wow, big discovery here. Now as I said, 1v1 engagements are for tournaments and EFT contests, I'm talking about the cold and silent depths of space here! Now what happens when said BS/BC blunders into a gatecamp or faces a tougher opposition than expected? Or when reinforcements arrive and the order to GTFO is given? Odds are it will be to cumbersome to disengage. what happens when you're chasing a relatively agile gang over a few systems? I'd rather have a deimos readily available to apply dps to the offending party than an armageddon struggling to follow two jumps behind. you totally disregard mobility as a factor that gets you into fights and out of shitty situations, which is a grave mistake if you do other things than random ganking. when I pointed out the manoeuvrability difference, between a brutix and a deimos, you missed the point, and missed it agains when I mentionned the vaga's manoeuvrability. I'll even bold it for you: HACS have the ability to PICK THEIR FIGHTS (to a greater degree than BC/BS). They are not meant for frontal assault like their description implies, not anymore at the very least. You're so focused on straight engagements that you willingly blind yourself to everything else. Even if it packs tremendous power for its size, a deimos is not meant to be hurled stupidly in the spaceship equivalent of a brawl. you dont' send a brutix toe to toe with a blasterthron, I won't send a deimos toe to toe with a brutix, simple as that. I'm also a vaga pilot, I don't value my vaga's ability to fight into falloff and out of web range as much as I value its ability to prey on opportunity targets, warp in and out of a fight and generally have the privilege to decide WHEN I will fight. In this area of huginns, rapiers and zomg fast inties, being able to fight in falloff is overrated. And at this game, it's far better than a deimos I have to admit. I tend to pick a vaga for hit and RUN operations, whereas a deimos fits HIT and run operations better. Zealot vs Deimos I'm not talking about theoretical 1v1 here. Actually, the zealot is a wonderful ship, and as I said, blasters don't really get enough dps advantage to compensate for their limitations. However, I've yet to see a zealot that can launch 5 med drones (ECM, remote rep, damage drones, name it you get it o the market). Remember that tiny bit I said about fighting outnumbered? I'll trade the opportunity for a long range fit over a versatile dronebay anyday. The zealot is a one trick pony, and that does not suit my piloting style at all. EDIT:type, and there it is, I nearly DID waste hours preaching in the desert.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:10:00 - [59] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 06/10/2008 16:11:00 Originally by: Vathar Multiple pilot engagements: I won't go into too much debate over multiple pilots engagements as there are many variables, but Having a ship dealing 1kdps 50km away isn't really useful either when the puny rifter dies. That's the great thing about blasterboats, once they're in range, they tend to tackle too, whereas a zealot sitting 50km can just watch the target say goodbye once the tackler is dead. Now we will be stuck on a debate about which is the best tackler, which is beside the point. Too many IFs to be productive on either side of the argument tbh ^^ Honestly, get better tacklers (IOW, interceptors), or bring more gank so the target dies before the tackler. But really, the larger the fight, the less useful blaster ships are. Consider a 3v3, two battleships and a tackler on each side. The tacklers are non-webbing interceptors and will just scramble the primary. And just to be nice, I'll even assume that the Megathron is faster than the Armageddon, and both Megathrons have a covops warp-in at 15km on one of the Armageddons (a perfect scenario for the blaster ship). Here's what happens: 1) Both Megathrons MWD towards the first target, while both Armageddons MWD away in different directions. 2) The Megathrons slowly close range, one of them taking heavy fire the whole time (due to near-zero transversal). 3) The Megathrons get into range of the first target, with much of their cap gone, and the primary's armor heavily damaged. However, their DPS advantage is enough, and the first Armageddon goes down quickly. 4) As the Megathrons turn to engage the second Armageddon, the first Megathron is finished off by the surviving Armageddon. The surviving Megathron now faces a long MWD trip (potentially up to 50km) to get into range even if the Armageddon does not move at all, again while taking considerable fire that it can not reply to. 5) The second Megathron either caps out trying to run its MWD and dies horribly, or is ripped apart long before getting into range. Even if it somehow gets into range, by that point it will have taken so much damage that its slight dps advantage is not enough to overcome the Armageddon's completely intact armor before dying. Net result: two battleships killed at the cost of one battleship. Pretty good deal, I'd say. And it only gets worse with more ships. More time spent MWDing between targets = more blaster ships dying without ever putting a shot on target = more advantage to the non-Gallente ships. Quote: BC VS HAC Obviously those are the advantages of a HAC, and the reasons why the Zealot, Vagabond and Cerberus are so awesome. However, the Deimos does not have mobility. To do any meaningful damage, it has to engage deep within web range. So if things go bad, the Deimos has very little chance of escaping. Where a Zealot/Vagabond/Cerberus can often just MWD out of scram range and warp out, the only way a Deimos is going to survive is if every hostile ship in the battle has been killed. If you're going to fly a do-or-die ship like that, you want the maximum possible damage and tank, and that means a Brtuix (if you need cruiser-level tracking) or Hyperion/Megathron (if you don't). Just to be clear: my point here is that Gallente suck, not that HACs suck. Some HACs can be very powerful ships if used correctly, but the Deimos is not one of them.
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.06 17:51:00 - [60] K, now I get what's wrong here ... lack of creativity. You seem to be so intent on knowing the way a fight is supposed to happen that you can even state with dead certainty what's gonna happen anytime 2 megathrons meet 2 armageddons. But even your first scenario is flawed as it is. If they have to mwd 50km towards the second arma after step 3, why keep on fighting? Just warp away and you've got 1 arma down and 2 megas alive. A blaster pilot won't commit suicide by mwding 50km towards a target knowing he'll be dead before he arrives. however, speculating on possible combat scenarios is fruitless, just keep in mind that battles are not always fought till no one is left standing, always flying as other people do is following a FotM. I've seen a few major battles in this game where fleets have been **d because the opposing FC thought out of the box, or adapted to a new environment faster (read nerfbat sequel or laggy conditions or whatever else you fancy ...) I'll grant you one thing though, short ranges weapon in general get suckier as the fleet size increase as you lose the ability to focus fire, there's a reason why 0.0 fleetbattles are fought long range. Originally by:** Merin Ryskin Just to be clear: my point here is that Gallente suck, not that HACs suck. Some HACs can be very powerful ships if used correctly, but the Deimos is not one of them. Key word here is "used correctly" and you obviously have no clue as how to fly one, no offense intended. I've seen pilots flying their deimos with their brains instead of their balls. cunning beats testosterone when flying this thing.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.