Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 20:06:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Originally by: fuze You are kidding right? Ever heard of conflict of interest? If a CSM member is banned from the game/forums the CSM itself should decide among themselves about the fate of their fellow member.
No, not kidding. Yes, I've heard of conflict of interest. I agree that the CSM itself should decide the fate of their fellow member, however this is problematic, as it means a faction in power can totally kick-out all other votes in CSM-members.
So based on the comments so far, I'll revise the ejection process like this; Forum banning gives the CSM members the right to vote on whether the forum banned CSM member is kicked from the CSM. One vote may be taken per forum banning.
I still don't really like it, but that's much less bad. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 20:19:00 -
[32]
Depending on the CSM member, and what alliance (if any) they are in, ejection via CSM candidate votes could be just as bad!
A forum ban could be looked at by CCP (not forum admin) first, the CSM informed and some reasoning given (ie, serious breach/not serious breach). The CSM could then vote, CCP be informed of the wishes of the CSM, and ultimately someone in CCP to take responsibility for a final decision.
A forum ban would entail some warnings first, plus the CSM member would not be able to interact with players via the forum (which I'd say is a pretty important duty). If CSM members are aware of the consequences of actions beforehand, then choose to act in unprofessional ways, I'd say they had fair warning.
Take care, Arithron
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 20:26:00 -
[33]
Upon reflection, and in danger of opening another can of worms...
What about removal of a CSM member by vote for dereliction of duty?
The definition of duty could be decided (a commitment agreement by CSM members) at the start of a CSM term.
Take care, Arithron
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
Farrqua
Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 21:10:00 -
[34]
Is any one else sensing a witch hunt is a foot? Getting support to take to CCP to go after someone currently on the CSM? I thought there was some kind of movement already to oust Jade for some things that everyone had heart burn about,had a lot of support and CCP said "nope."
Well if this is a last poke in the eye of whoever it is on the board..I am going to need popcorn for this.
|
Miz Cenuij
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 21:27:00 -
[35]
OFC this should be the case, if they are unable to conduct themselves in a proper manner ingame or on the forums, then they have no place on the CSM.
Or perhaps you believe that CCP allows any old muppet to be a forum mod and furthermore allows said muppets to ban anyone for no reason.
"Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them" |
Jarvis Hellstrom
The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 21:38:00 -
[36]
Heck yes! May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 21:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Farrqua Is any one else sensing a witch hunt is a foot? Getting support to take to CCP to go after someone currently on the CSM? I thought there was some kind of movement already to oust Jade for some things that everyone had heart burn about,had a lot of support and CCP said "nope."
Well if this is a last poke in the eye of whoever it is on the board..I am going to need popcorn for this.
Originally by: Farrqua Is any one else sensing a witch hunt is a foot? Getting support to take to CCP to go after someone currently on the CSM? I thought there was some kind of movement already to oust Jade for some things that everyone had heart burn about,had a lot of support and CCP said "nope." Well if this is a last poke in the eye of whoever it is on the board..I am going to need popcorn for this.
As far as I know nobody on the CSM is forum banned at the moment. I don't think its so much a witch hunt as just trying to set up some solid rules of conduct for the people going into a second term and being joined by the new intake.
As for people going after me - bah, that was just trolling. Nobody sensible took that to heart - certainly not ccp or the csm.
... nothing ever burns down by itself
|
Farrqua
Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 21:45:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Farrqua on 06/10/2008 21:49:22
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As far as I know nobody on the CSM is forum banned at the moment. I don't think its so much a witch hunt as just trying to set up some solid rules of conduct for the people going into a second term and being joined by the new intake.
As for people going after me - bah, that was just trolling. Nobody sensible took that to heart - certainly not ccp or the csm.
For myself, I just can't seem to conect the ingame stuff to the forum stuff. Forum stuff your really not logged in. Whilst in game I see and feel a completley different manner a play and behavior. That when I get my role on so to speak.
Here..it's like having a beer with the fellas and talking about how much you suck "in-game" Or talk about how we can fix this or that, and tell funny stories of **** poor fittings and scamms.
But I guess most just can't seem to sperate themselves from ingame and out.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 21:53:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Farrqua For myself, I just can't seem to conect the ingame stuff to the forum stuff. Forum stuff your really not logged in. Whilst in game I see and feel a completley different manner a play and behavior. That when I get my role on so to speak.
Bit different for a CSM delegate though, you do need to use the forums to communicate with the players and you can't afford to use them lightly - ultimately its a medium for discussion and has to be treated with respect.
... nothing ever burns down by itself
|
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 03:47:00 -
[40]
Lets try and look at it another way:
If you are a taxi driver and are taken away your drivers license, don't you think you are going to get fired? You obviously can't do your job(Driving around) without it.
|
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 04:11:00 -
[41]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Lets try and look at it another way:
If you are a taxi driver and are taken away your drivers license, don't you think you are going to get fired? You obviously can't do your job(Driving around) without it.
If a Member of Parliament stops sending out newsletters, do they have to resign? That seems a much closer metaphor. The forums are hardly necessary for the CSM role, as evidenced by how many of you shun them frequently. They are unnecessary for internal communication, for attending meetings, for consulting with constituents, or for anything else essential. If the CSM moves to a forum-based system, then this might change, but given the present system, forum access is a throw-in, not a core responsibility. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 05:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto They are unnecessary for internal communication, for attending meetings, for consulting with constituents, or for anything else essential. If the CSM moves to a forum-based system, then this might change, but given the present system, forum access is a throw-in, not a core responsibility.
I beg to differ.
If you want an item on the agenda, you have to post on the forum. We now have our own private forum, where communication DOES happen. It hasn't been the case that the CSM is forum-based, due to the lack of tools provided to us.
The fundamental role of a CSM member is to communicate. It's a 2 way communication in my mind. A ban will keep you from doing this job.
|
fuze
Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 05:59:00 -
[43]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Lets try and look at it another way:
How about this example:
You continue to keep posting on the forums about the age question for CSM and get a forum ban because of it (purely hypothetical ofc). Would it then be fair to get kicked out CSM? Besides even then when the rest of CSM don't vote you out would CCP still communicate to you? What if then all of the CSM would resign because of that? It's all a big WHAT IF but it's better to think about it now and not when it's too late.
|
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 06:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: LaVista Vista Lets try and look at it another way:
How about this example:
You continue to keep posting on the forums about the age question for CSM and get a forum ban because of it (purely hypothetical ofc). Would it then be fair to get kicked out CSM? Besides even then when the rest of CSM don't vote you out would CCP still communicate to you? What if then all of the CSM would resign because of that? It's all a big WHAT IF but it's better to think about it now and not when it's too late.
The hypothetical situation is not likely to happen. You need a more likely example to make a point.
But if it did happen, then several things can be done. Either write to Wrangler, stating the case(Assuming I didn't break the rules). If he just doesn't bother, then internal affairs will have to look into how the community team does their job.
However, the example is really bad and only suits to try and prove a point which in my eyes isn't valid. Yes, the mods are trigger happy from time to time. But they aren't unreasonable people.
|
fuze
Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 08:31:00 -
[45]
Originally by: LaVista Vista But they aren't unreasonable people.
Being unreasonable isn't as black and white as you might think. The CSM should at have the ability to form its own opinion about this. Is CCP's change of the min age for CSM reasonable? Is getting banned from the forums because you lost your temper when you got trolled for months reasonable? Is getting banned because of outing CCP mishaps reasonable? |
Joss Sparq
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 08:57:00 -
[46]
Eh, I still don't like the idea of removing CSMs on the basis of a forum ban (and letting other CSM members vote on it either) but on the other hand if you're banned then that'll probably affect your ability to do your expected tasks, from which I can see the value of a banned CSM member being diminished to the point I may prefer an Alternate being put in their place anyway.
In the case of a game ban I'm inclined to fully agree with an automatic removal. So, I approve, both on this aspect and primarily the fact that having some clear direction for future CSMs is very important too. Thumb up.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Well to be quite honest, I very much doubt any CSM present or future is going to get as badly trolled and insulted and flamed and stalked than I've been this summer and at the end of it all I've still got my posting rights and managed to avoid breaking forum rules handling CSM business in the midst of some extremely ugly discussions.
And to be honest I enjoyed almost every minute of it. I may not agree with some of the opinions I've seen you put forward, but your responses (and some of their charges against your opinions) often made many subjects I wouldn't have taken much interest in more engaging to read/consider and a convenient distraction from my studies too.
So, what're you wearing?
|
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 09:00:00 -
[47]
Quote: Is CCP's change of the min age for CSM reasonable?
Yes, it is, now that they have explained why. Of course you might not agree with them. But they listened and postponed the rule. Quote: Is getting banned from the forums because you lost your temper when you got trolled for months reasonable?
Assuming the reason one would get banned is that you broke the rule, sure. But we must assume that the troll got banned too. In either case, you can reason with the community team about your ban if you think the ban is wrong.
Quote: Is getting banned because of outing CCP mishaps reasonable?
Sure. You broke the EULA, so it's reasonable. And you can always petition it to a lead GM or talk to internal affairs. I don't want to get into a discussion on if the kugu case was justice or not though. Lets just say I have an opinion, but it's unrelated to this specific point I'm making.
Reason is not a 1-way thing.
|
fuze
Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 10:07:00 -
[48]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Reason is not a 1-way thing.
Originally by: fuze Being unreasonable isn't as black and white as you might think.
I guess we agree on this. No system and nobody is perfect otherwise there wouldn't be the need for CSM.
Lets take the following rule:
Quote: 17. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.
http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp It basically means that if you get moderated on the e-o forums you can get banned for it and then consequently be removed as CSM. It simply depends on the way you interpret this rule. And that's an example of where it can go wrong. When CSM continues to disagree about a decision CCP made, do they then still kick that member or can he/she stay? |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 12:13:00 -
[49]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I beg to differ.
If you want an item on the agenda, you have to post on the forum. We now have our own private forum, where communication DOES happen. It hasn't been the case that the CSM is forum-based, due to the lack of tools provided to us.
The fundamental role of a CSM member is to communicate. It's a 2 way communication in my mind. A ban will keep you from doing this job.
I know posting on the forums to add a topic is standard procedure, but if a CSM were forum banned and still on the Council, the Chair would surely accept submissions by email, in-game convo, or a similar mechanism. And while I don't dispute that 2-way communication is critical, it can be done just as easily in Jita Local, or in most of your corp chats, as it can be in the Assembly Hall.
I'm not saying that it'd be good to have a forum-banned CSM member, even temporarily. I'm just saying that, given present methods of operation, I don't think it'd be bad enough to justify ejection. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Niraco79
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 14:17:00 -
[50]
I support this
|
|
Irongut
M'8'S Frontal Impact
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 15:45:00 -
[51]
If they receive an in-game or permanent forum ban then they should be removed immediately with no exception. However for a short temporary forum ban I think they could be required to abstain from voting until their ban was lifted and one of the alternates allowed to vote in their place.
--
The future is Black. Brace for Impact! |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 16:46:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 07/10/2008 16:49:09
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well I'd agree there could certainly be some kind of behind the scenes discussion going on - but ultimately if you are getting forum banned under the new enlightened forum regime we've got now then something is going wrong Ank. People do get sent emails from the moderators telling them when they've had posts removed/moved/whatnot and why and if they keep insulting other players then its really their own fault.
The new forum moderation team is no more enlightened than the old. Action is created by nothing more than the click of a report button, with no examination of the context of the reported post done.
Now, I'd agree with a review by the council of the offending posts, but that lends itself to the same silly bullying the "moderation by report button" lends itself to. A situation where a majority in the council can remove minority representatives is not a healthy one per se.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Well to be quite honest, I very much doubt any CSM present or future is going to get as badly trolled and insulted and flamed and stalked than I've been this summer and at the end of it all I've still got my posting rights and managed to avoid breaking forum rules handling CSM business in the midst of some extremely ugly discussions. I've had literally hundreds of forum alts trolling me and the ultimate answer is simply to install CAOD-cleaner and block entire organizations and alt posters if you really can't handle these people with an even temper on Eve online.
I'm not sure if this is meant to be ironic or not. Suffice to say you've broken the rules plenty, and everyone's had their fair share of forum alts attack. Let's at least be honest if nothing else.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.07 16:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Assuming the reason one would get banned is that you broke the rule, sure. But we must assume that the troll got banned too. In either case, you can reason with the community team about your ban if you think the ban is wrong.
No, you cannot. I also do not think the community moderation team should be in the position of determining the player's CSM candidates. Especially given that forum moderation has been placed outside of the purview of the CSM.
If the council has no input into the actions of the moderation team then I'm astounded we would request that the moderation team have input into the makeup of the council.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Ice Baby
Caldari Ice Cream Express
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 03:27:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Ice Baby on 08/10/2008 03:29:36 Edited by: Ice Baby on 08/10/2008 03:27:42 NAY, because it's ccp, and quality of GMs and CMs are sloppy at best. And besides it should not be up to the above to decide over CSM.
PS. who got banned, the goonswarm guys? ------------------------------ Adding bounty will not make it easier to kill me. |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 03:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ice Baby Edited by: Ice Baby on 08/10/2008 03:29:36 Edited by: Ice Baby on 08/10/2008 03:27:42 NAY, because it's ccp, and quality of GMs and CMs are sloppy at best. And besides it should not be up to the above to decide over CSM.
PS. who got banned, the goonswarm guys?
Me
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 09:12:00 -
[56]
Originally by: James Lyrus Given that you cannot apply to be on the CSM if you have had a ban in the past, that seems not unreasonable.
This is not true. Jade has had a full permanent forum ban in the past and was allowed to participate. There was a cut off period, where, if you had had a ban that was not due to an EULA violation or "egregious violation of the forum rules"[not an exact quote] you were given amnesty. This amnesty carried over into the CSM process.
Re: Darius. Oftentimes they will not discuss it with the person in question either. I have received warning and other moderation and not once heard back asking for clarification or protesting the decision.
|
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 10:16:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Goumindong Jade has had a full permanent forum ban in the past and was allowed to participate.
Full permanent bans ain't what they used to be.
Originally by: LaVista Vista The fundamental role of a CSM member is to communicate. It's a 2 way communication in my mind. A ban will keep you from doing this job.
You must be an INSANE forum ***** to think such a statement. I read the AH and JPSC and a post by the CSM is a rarity, not the standard. Communication from CSM delegates? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. CSM can't do their job without posting on the forums? You overestimate the power of the eve-online forums.
LaVista Vista, I suggest you actually go take the time (omg, effort incoming!) and read the AH topics, not just the ones that interest you. Note how many CSM repsonses their are. Then go to a topic that you or another CSM member really cares about and see how many CSM repsonses over one line are in that thread. Communication? My ass, more like using the CSM to further your own agenda. Don't bullshit me. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
|
SickSeven
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 10:51:00 -
[58]
so who got banned?
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 11:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Goumindong Jade has had a full permanent forum ban in the past and was allowed to participate.
Full permanent bans ain't what they used to be
Yes, it was harder to get a full permanent ban back then than it was today and the penalties that accrue leading up to said ban are more severe now.
|
Another Forum'Alt
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Goumindong Jade has had a full permanent forum ban in the past and was allowed to participate.
Full permanent bans ain't what they used to be.
Originally by: LaVista Vista The fundamental role of a CSM member is to communicate. It's a 2 way communication in my mind. A ban will keep you from doing this job.
You must be an INSANE forum ***** to think such a statement. I read the AH and JPSC and a post by the CSM is a rarity, not the standard. Communication from CSM delegates? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. CSM can't do their job without posting on the forums? You overestimate the power of the eve-online forums.
LaVista Vista, I suggest you actually go take the time (omg, effort incoming!) and read the AH topics, not just the ones that interest you. Note how many CSM repsonses their are. Then go to a topic that you or another CSM member really cares about and see how many CSM repsonses over one line are in that thread. Communication? My ass, more like using the CSM to further your own agenda. Don't bullshit me.
Name me one CSM member who doesn't do that... Goons? Hmm, no agenda there, I'm sure </sarcasm> As for Jade Constantine, LOLAGENDA Same for all the rest, they are just the most obvious examples. And do you know what, NOBODY CARES. It was EXPECTED they would, which is why players voted for the one they wanted. This is not part of my sig.
...Or is it? |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |