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Falcons, jammers, ECCM and Eos

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Author	Topic
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.06 12:40:00 - [31] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Sokratesz ECCM doesnt improve EFT dps, thats why I fit ECCM on 90% of my ships, and I can say you're either flying caps only or just pulling the 'omg, EFT warrior' card without any real arguments. Fact: 1 ECCM means you're out of 50% of the fight in a average BS vs a single racial jammer. I was just showing the reason why many people do not fit ECCM, because it doesn't give any direct observable 'improvement' to their fits. EFT can be a great tool but too many use it as their only source to judge whether a set-up is good or not.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.06 13:26:00 - [32] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Sokratesz ECCM doesnt improve EFT dps, thats why I fit ECCM on 90% of my ships, and I can say you're either flying caps only or just pulling the 'omg, EFT warrior' card without any real arguments. Fact: 1 ECCM means you're out of 50% of the fight in a average BS vs a single racial jammer. I was just showing the reason why many people do not fit ECCM, because it doesn't give any direct observable 'improvement' to their fits. EFT can be a great tool but too many use it as their only source to judge whether a set-up is good or not. True to a point, although EFT does have sensor strenght listed. Anyone ignoring that parameter in today's age is being stupid, tbh. Not fitting one on a BS is just asking for trouble. I mean, it is a useful tool, as it does push you from 'effectively permajammed' to 'out for 50% of the fight' given spread-out jams. Most arguments revolve around ECCM not being powerful enough rather then 'ECCM is useless' which it, of course, isn't. I generally fit one for soloing as well, since ECM drones are very popular on other people's solo fits and will often win a fight (other parameters being equal) if you don't have ECCM. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Izo Alabaster Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.10.06 13:30:00 - [33] Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 06/10/2008 13:31:22 Originally by: TZeer As most people know the Falcon might be a bit overpowered. Anyway, why are there so few people using a Eos to boost their gangs sensorstrength? You basically free up a midslot for the whole gang, 1 ECCM and a Eos = 50+ sensortstrength on most BS. And even most Pvp oriented T1 frigs get their strength up to BS size with 1 ECCM and the Eos.... To answer the OP's question, the reason why you don't see Eos' fit like this is: 100% increase of 0 is still 0. If a falcon is jamming you 85% of the time (BS w/o ECM, worse if you're in a smaller ship) then it's not freeing up a slot, since 1 - .85 = .15 (15% chance not to be jammed) and increasing that by 39% (if sxndy's numbers were correct) gives you not even a 6% increase in the likelihood that you'll avoid a jam. Moving it from 85% chance to be jammed down to 79% chance to be jammed by a falcon with a single racial jammer pointed at you. Negligible at best.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.06 13:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Izo Alabaster Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 06/10/2008 13:31:22 Originally by: TZeer As most people know the Falcon might be a bit overpowered. Anyway, why are there so few people using a Eos to boost their gangs sensorstrength? You basically free up a midslot for the whole gang, 1 ECCM and a Eos = 50+ sensortstrength on most BS. And even most Pvp oriented T1 frigs get their strength up to BS size with 1 ECCM and the Eos.... To answer the OP's question, the reason why you don't see Eos' fit like this is: 100% increase of 0 is still 0. If a falcon is jamming you 85% of the time (BS w/o ECM, worse if you're in a smaller ship) then it's not freeing up a slot, since 1 - .85 = .15 (15% chance not to be jammed) and increasing that by 39% (if sxndy's numbers were correct) gives you not even a 6% increase in the likelihood that you'll avoid a jam. Moving it from 85% chance to be jammed down to 79% chance to be jammed by a falcon with a single racial jammer pointed at you. Negligible at best. The more reason to fit an ECCM then, so that your base chance starts out at rather better than 50% chance to not be jammed. (Something like 60% base chance even with a Geddon IIRC)
Multimorph Gallente NailorTech Industries Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.06 14:01:00 - [35] Edited by: Multimorph on 06/10/2008 14:01:58 Originally by: Izo Alabaster Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 06/10/2008 13:31:22 Originally by: TZeer As most people know the Falcon might be a bit overpowered. Anyway, why are there so few people using a Eos to boost their gangs sensorstrength? You basically free up a midslot for the whole gang, 1 ECCM and a Eos = 50+ sensortstrength on most BS. And even most Pvp oriented T1 frigs get their strength up to BS size with 1 ECCM and the Eos.... To answer the OP's question, the reason why you don't see Eos' fit like this is: 100% increase of 0 is still 0. If a falcon is jamming you 85% of the time (BS w/o ECM, worse if you're in a smaller ship) then it's not freeing up a slot, since 1 - .85 = .15 (15% chance not to be jammed) and increasing that by 39% (if sxndy's numbers were correct) gives you not even a 6% increase in the likelihood that you'll avoid a jam. Moving it from 85% chance to be jammed down to 79% chance to be jammed by a falcon with a single racial jammer pointed at you. Negligible at best. I do not think you can calculate like this. Chance for succesful jamming is p = Jammerstrength / Sensorstrength If a EOS increases your sensor strength by 38.8%, the new chance is p_eos = Jammerstrength / (1.388Sensorstrength) Thus, it is p_eos = (1/1.388)(Jammerstrength/Sensorstrengh) = 0.72p Now, if a Falcon has a 85% chance of jamming you without EOS bonus, it has a 61.2% ( = 0.7285%) of jamming you with EOS bonus. Correct me, if i am wrong :)
sxndy Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.06 14:17:00 - [36] Originally by: TZeer As most people know the Falcon might be a bit overpowered. Anyway, why are there so few people using a Eos to boost their gangs sensorstrength? You basically free up a midslot for the whole gang, 1 ECCM and a Eos = 50+ sensortstrength on most BS. And even most Pvp oriented T1 frigs get their strength up to BS size with 1 ECCM and the Eos.... To answer the OP's question, the reason why you don't see Eos' fit like this is: 100% increase of 0 is still 0. If a falcon is jamming you 85% of the time (BS w/o ECM, worse if you're in a smaller ship) then it's not freeing up a slot, since 1 - .85 = .15 (15% chance not to be jammed) and increasing that by 39% (if sxndy's numbers were correct) gives you not even a 6% increase in the likelihood that you'll avoid a jam. Moving it from 85% chance to be jammed down to 79% chance to be jammed by a falcon with a single racial jammer pointed at you. Negligible at best. Indeed. I took my figures from ôPatrick ScottÆsö ôLeadership Gang Assist modules and Fleet Structureö Google and download it, it is really good. Patrick calculates a maxed bonus of 38.8% for eccm given by an EOS, this is a 38.8% boost to your ships base sensor strength. One racial eccm (conjunctive or t2) fitted to your ship will give a 96% boost, One projected (projected on your ship) eccm (phased muon or t2) will give you a 120% boost to sensor strength. Data from Battle Clinic. In a small gang I use local eccm, in a decent gang we use anti-falcon/ecm ships. No-way would I rely on an eos to keep a fleet safe from ecm, the figures tell the story.
Izo Alabaster Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Multimorph Correct me, if i am wrong :) John has 15 apples. With an Eos around, John's apples increase by 39%. John now has 39 apples. Does this sound right?
Multimorph Gallente NailorTech Industries Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Izo Alabaster Originally by: Multimorph Correct me, if i am wrong :) John has 15 apples. With an Eos around, John's apples increase by 39%. John now has 39 apples. Does this sound right? Well, beside the fact that a EOS giving a bonus in the amount of reallife apples would be a fantastic thing for any apple farmer - no, it sounds pretty wrong. However, I do not understand what this has to do with my post or any other posts here in this thread. Help me please!
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:46:00 - [39] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 06/10/2008 15:46:17 Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: 40% sensor strength means 40% less chance of being jammed per jammer WTS: math knowledge. You can use it... EOS is underrated imo, but your math still sucks. According to you one ECCM would make you invunerable to falcons (+100% sensor strength = 100% less chance to be jammed?). Sigh. Yeah, that was really stupid. This is what I get for posting absurdly late at night. While the actual numbers I posted are wrong, the general point is true: ECCM is not about keeping yourself unjammed, it's about making ECM less effective against your fleet as a whole. And for that, it works very effectively.
Marcus Aurelius Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.06 16:11:00 - [40] people are ****ing lazy, they dont want to adapt to ecm. It's been that way since launch. Whenever ecm turns good, the same people or type of them start whining about their gank/tank equasion being interfered with by a third factor. Damps and TD's should be made better, instead of nerfing ecm. Variety is good. Makes for fun results when specialised fleets meet up.

Izo Alabaster Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:37:00 - [41] Originally by: Multimorph Originally by: Izo Alabaster Originally by: Multimorph Correct me, if i am wrong :) John has 15 apples. With an Eos around, John's apples increase by 39%. John now has 39 apples. Does this sound right? However, I do not understand what this has to do with my post or any other posts here in this thread. Help me please! I'm well aware that I'm arguing with the guy who quite literally wrote the book on how ECM performs. I have your thread open on another tab as I'm typing this, and I realize that I'm probably about to embarrass myself. For anyone interested in reading a good ECM thread, check out Multimorphs thread on ECM. http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=870370 I'll mail you in game to save one of us (probably me) some embarrassment, and because I have a comment or two.
Izo Alabaster Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.10.06 19:52:00 - [42] Multimorph is correct, I was mistaken. 61.2%
Donkey Dingaling	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:05:00 - [43] Edited by: Donkey Dingaling on 06/10/2008 20:06:21 Originally by: Izo Alabaster Multimorph is correct, I was mistaken. 61.2% *****!!!!! Rymes with BORE!!!
Death Scourge	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:05:00 - [44] Edited by: Death Scourge on 06/10/2008 20:05:41
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2008.10.06 20:28:00 - [45] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 06/10/2008 20:39:50 Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia i speak for you boy, no need for any logical argument. let your attack pwn itself. lol-posting sure is terrible. Because pulling citations out of context, always make sense. I just had to prove that point. Personally i enjoy the fact that Merin at least tries to argue the discussion at hand, and show some heart and passion in the process. Continue to post more constructive comments on ECCM and Command links (and less bickering about who said what). I'm sorry for the interruption, i'll go back to reading the thread now, hopfully i can contribute with something more constructive later on.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.07 07:00:00 - [46] Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 07/10/2008 07:00:52 Info links can be useful in some situations; Eos pretty much never is. Its bonuses to the info links are not large, and given its poor survivability, crap maneuverability and non-existent effective damage output, any other CS is a better option even for ECM fleets. (With maxed skills, the numbers are as follows, unbonused -> max-skilled Eos: EW range 15% -> 17.25% Sensor str 22.5% -> 25.87% ECM/TP str 15% -> 17.25% TD/SD str 9% -> 10.35% Mindlink increases all values by half.) -- Gradient forum
Multimorph Gallente NailorTech Industries Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.07 08:59:00 - [47] Edited by: Multimorph on 07/10/2008 08:59:00 Originally by: Izo Alabaster Multimorph is correct, ... Ah, me always loves to hear these words
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.07 09:15:00 - [48] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 07/10/2008 07:00:52 Info links can be useful in some situations; Eos pretty much never is. Its bonuses to the info links are not large, and given its poor survivability, crap maneuverability and non-existent effective damage output, any other CS is a better option even for ECM fleets. Bonus to useful links is what gives you a reason to fly it. As for your gripes about the Eos: (a) Poor survivability is only because it's got stupid (active) rep bonuses rather then awesome resist+EHP bonuses of the Damnation (the only CS which 'tanks' the way a CS should). Even so, in small gangs, it can field a preety solid local tank - in larger gangs, by plating / trimarking / raising resists, you can still field BS level buffer tank. Not nearly as good as the Damnation, true, but meh. (b) All fleet commands do like 100 DPS in a proper fitting (meaning, three links, etc). Eos still outdamages them and does like 200 DPS in a proper fit. Where's the problem in that? (c) Maneuverability... the only maneuverable CS is the Claymore. It's definitely more maneuverable then the, say, Damnation. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.10.07 10:08:00 - [49] If you had five people in your gang and you had the option of either having an Eos in the gang OR a Falcon, what would it be, assuming that the other four ships can not be either of the two? Or one better: you already have one Falcon in the gang of five, you have the choice of adding an Eos or another Falcon, which will it be? My bet is on the Falcon, in both situations. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.07 10:26:00 - [50] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 07/10/2008 10:26:22 Originally by: murder one If you had five people in your gang and you had the option of either having an Eos in the gang OR a Falcon, what would it be, assuming that the other four ships can not be either of the two? Falcon, obviously. With no ECM in the gang, two of the Eos' three links are useless, and ECM of your own is better at dealing with hostile jamming than 40% ECCM when gang sizes are that small. This is mostly because the Eos just plain sucks for anything other than running 7x gang mods AFK at a POS. If the ship actually had a purpose in combat, there might be an argument for bringing it. Quote: Or one better: you already have one Falcon in the gang of five, you have the choice of adding an Eos or another Falcon, which will it be? Falcon, of course. This is another problem with the Eos, for a 25% bonus to ewar strength to be more useful than another ewar ship, you need at least five ewar ships in your gang already. Easy to do in large fleets, but it makes the ship and its links pretty useless in a small-gang fight, while the other three races have ships/links that can be very effective. The obvious conclusion is to get over CCP's absurd idea of "fleet commands are not combat ships" and fix the Eos (and the other field command ships). With a ship that is useful for more than just a gang mod platform, the argument changes considerably. How would it be if the Eos became a true ewar/drone boat, had its removed mid slot replaced (CCP, WTF were you thinking?), and got a bonus change to drone damage and ewar strength? With 3x gang mods, SDAs/tank in lows, and some ECM in the mids, it's a close-range Falcon with nice dps... in other words, a perfect gang support ship that could easily be favored over a Falcon for a lot of gangs.

Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.07 12:48:00 - [51] OMG! Firstly: EOS sucks coz it HAS to be parked away from fight at POS or somewhere else. U guys are talking if ALL fights are happening with gangs 50 vs 50 at system, where both gangs have at least one POS. What about roaming gangs? U can encounter falcons there too (specialy if u dont want a blob with u, like going solo or in duel!). From this point: not all the fighting happens with 50ships involved, half on each side. I, for instance like to fight solo or in small group. And even if we have a mixed gang in this case (like, we have to be ready for everything, right?!?!) one EOS aint gonna save anybody. I rather have another heavy DPS monster with me then a wet-paper-bag-dps eos which can be disabled by one neutralizer. And if one eos can change your changes for beeing jammed from 80% to 70% that sucks tbh. Example of gang that we come by on daily basis: http://www.smp-alliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9208 U notice 3 falcons?? no matter how big our gang would be, with three falcon, they can jamm like 10BSs easily. OFC, we can blob them with 150 BSs, but is that really a point of fighting in EVE?? Bring bigger blob.. ----- TCODA corporation is recruiting! TCODA is awesome!
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.10.08 14:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Miss KillSome OMG! Firstly: EOS sucks coz it HAS to be parked away from fight at POS or somewhere else. U guys are talking if ALL fights are happening with gangs 50 vs 50 at system, where both gangs have at least one POS. What about roaming gangs? U can encounter falcons there too (specialy if u dont want a blob with u, like going solo or in duel!). From this point: not all the fighting happens with 50ships involved, half on each side. I, for instance like to fight solo or in small group. And even if we have a mixed gang in this case (like, we have to be ready for everything, right?!?!) one EOS aint gonna save anybody. I rather have another heavy DPS monster with me then a wet-paper-bag-dps eos which can be disabled by one neutralizer. And if one eos can change your changes for beeing jammed from 80% to 70% that sucks tbh. Example of gang that we come by on daily basis: http://www.smp-alliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9208 U notice 3 falcons?? no matter how big our gang would be, with three falcon, they can jamm like 10BSs easily. OFC, we can blob them with 150 BSs, but is that really a point of fighting in EVE?? Bring bigger blob.. So the eos doesn't ever have a role; or it doesn't ever have a role in your style of play?

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