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Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.03.30 13:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, After all this mess, the end result is that a huge mass will remain with their voices unheard in the next council.
Even if CCP wont adimit that, this rendered the Council totally not representative of the playerbase.
And that will happen just because theres no logic system in place to replace someone that opt out his position.
Taking the next in line is not the best method. And, leaving the position unattended like CCP wants is even worse.
In real life elections, usually a candidate has a vice, a seccond in line that supports his views and standings, and is able to carry on his work in case the worst happens.
The proposal I put forward tot he CSM is simple:
Let from now on the candidates to CSM appoint a vice. Should anything happen, this vice would be able to step forward, keeping the representative system intact and thus not disregarding the will of the voters who chosed one candidate over other.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1137
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Posted - 2012.03.30 21:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
The existing process is democratic, using first-over-the-line, in order of votes. Just because your alliance bloc-voted for a candidate who self-destructed doesn't make the process non-representative. You as a bloc could nominate two or three candidates and vote them in, thus you would not have all of your representation eggs in one candidate basket.
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Dustie Pyryt
Solar Sun Imperative Blazing Angels Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.03.31 01:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game. Why does CCP put up with the crap. It seems easy enough to track down and ban all players with Goon in there alliance/corp associations... |
Jack Parr
University of Caille Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.03.31 02:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dustie Pyryt wrote:I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game. Why does CCP put up with the crap. It seems easy enough to track down and ban all players with Goon in there alliance/corp associations...
Can CCP still allow them forum access. I would be lost without their tears. "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average goon." -á -á-á - The Mittani |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1142
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Posted - 2012.03.31 10:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dustie Pyryt wrote:I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game.
Not our game, just your game. They don't want to ruin EVE, they just want to ruin your day.
Just one example of how understanding doesn't necessarily lead to friendship ;)
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Uronksur Suth
Viziam Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2012.04.01 04:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Welsige wrote:So, After all this mess, the end result is that a huge mass will remain with their voices unheard in the next council.
Even if CCP wont adimit that, this rendered the Council totally not representative of the playerbase.
And that will happen just because theres no logic system in place to replace someone that opt out his position.
Taking the next in line is not the best method. And, leaving the position unattended like CCP wants is even worse.
In real life elections, usually a candidate has a vice, a seccond in line that supports his views and standings, and is able to carry on his work in case the worst happens.
The proposal I put forward tot he CSM is simple:
Let from now on the candidates to CSM appoint a vice. Should anything happen, this vice would be able to step forward, keeping the representative system intact and thus not disregarding the will of the voters who chosed one candidate over other.
No. See post #2 by Mara Rinn. Just because your alliance's candidate self-destructed and you don't get to put another Goon in his place doesn't mean it wasn't democratic. |
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
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Posted - 2012.04.01 09:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
kick Amokdot |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
85
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Posted - 2012.04.01 15:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
The person who will be replacing The Mittani on CSM 7 is someone that other players voted for who would otherwise not have had a voice on CSM.
It might not be fair, but it is certainly democratic.
Seems to me I've heard a certain group wax eloquent over the inherent unfairness of EvE before. I wonder who that was? |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1132
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 16:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:The person who will be replacing The Mittani on CSM 7 is someone that other players voted for who would otherwise not have had a voice on CSM.
It might not be fair, but it is certainly democratic.
Seems to me I've heard a certain group wax eloquent over the inherent unfairness of EvE before. I wonder who that was?
Are you referring to the random blog post on April 1st by some random player claiming that someone who barely made it into the top-7 of the CSM is going to be chairing the CSM? Ha. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
86
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Posted - 2012.04.01 21:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
No, I must have missed that one.
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Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
77
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Posted - 2012.04.02 01:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well since Two Step was Second after Mittani, Why not make him the chairman since the votes show him to be favored over the other candidates. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1263
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 15:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm confused. Did the leap year throw you off? You missed April 1 by a wide margin.
Let's face it: the Goons would oppose any idea resembling this had their glorious leader not been the one to fall on his face. Do yourselves a favor and quit giving everyone so much to gloat about. Shut up, have your little Burn Jita party, and carry on.
Adapt or die, Goons. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.04.02 19:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Uronksur Suth wrote:Welsige wrote:So, After all this mess, the end result is that a huge mass will remain with their voices unheard in the next council.
Even if CCP wont adimit that, this rendered the Council totally not representative of the playerbase.
And that will happen just because theres no logic system in place to replace someone that opt out his position.
Taking the next in line is not the best method. And, leaving the position unattended like CCP wants is even worse.
In real life elections, usually a candidate has a vice, a seccond in line that supports his views and standings, and is able to carry on his work in case the worst happens.
The proposal I put forward tot he CSM is simple:
Let from now on the candidates to CSM appoint a vice. Should anything happen, this vice would be able to step forward, keeping the representative system intact and thus not disregarding the will of the voters who chosed one candidate over other.
No. See post #2 by Mara Rinn. Just because your alliance's candidate self-destructed and you don't get to put another Goon in his place doesn't mean it wasn't democratic.
It isnt democratic at all. Might be simpler and >> no effort << to CCP. But isnt democratic as it dosent try to maintain the representability of the interests of the voters.
In democracies, should a president step out, his vice would come in. Should the vice die, some other representative like a president of the senate of something would step forward. Not the underdog.
Theres no sense in the next, less voted candidate stepping in.
And see, i am not advocating that someone should replace Mittens or a revote, THIS SUGESTION is in regard to the future ellections and for the betterment of the process.
Is this hate-group so blind by hate that they cant have a civil discussion without bringing the torches and the forks? Gee.
Though i get the "eggs in a basket" popular simple-minded analogy, it has no bearing in a democratic process. Its like saying let Democrats/Republicans run with 4 candidates..... makes no sense.
~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.02 19:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:Well since Two Step was Second after Mittani, Why not make him the chairman since the votes show him to be favored over the other candidates.
In the current state of affairs, that seems logical. Any word on it? ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2012.04.02 19:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
HELIC0N ONE wrote:kick Amokdot
Not in the face! ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Isabella300
FinFleet Raiden.
15
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Posted - 2012.04.03 15:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Welsige wrote:Uronksur Suth wrote:Welsige wrote:So, After all this mess, the end result is that a huge mass will remain with their voices unheard in the next council.
Even if CCP wont adimit that, this rendered the Council totally not representative of the playerbase.
And that will happen just because theres no logic system in place to replace someone that opt out his position.
Taking the next in line is not the best method. And, leaving the position unattended like CCP wants is even worse.
In real life elections, usually a candidate has a vice, a seccond in line that supports his views and standings, and is able to carry on his work in case the worst happens.
The proposal I put forward tot he CSM is simple:
Let from now on the candidates to CSM appoint a vice. Should anything happen, this vice would be able to step forward, keeping the representative system intact and thus not disregarding the will of the voters who chosed one candidate over other.
No. See post #2 by Mara Rinn. Just because your alliance's candidate self-destructed and you don't get to put another Goon in his place doesn't mean it wasn't democratic. It isnt democratic at all. Might be simpler and >> no effort << to CCP. But isnt democratic as it dosent try to maintain the representability of the interests of the voters. In democracies, should a president step out, his vice would come in. Should the vice die, some other representative like a president of the senate of something would step forward. Not the underdog. Theres no sense in the next, less voted candidate stepping in. And see, i am not advocating that someone should replace Mittens or a revote, THIS SUGESTION is in regard to the future ellections and for the betterment of the process. Is this hate-group so blind by hate that they cant have a civil discussion without bringing the torches and the forks? Gee. Though i get the "eggs in a basket" popular simple-minded analogy, it has no bearing in a democratic process. Its like saying let Democrats/Republicans run with 4 candidates..... makes no sense.
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Delilah Wild
Concordokken Holdings Concordokken.
15
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Posted - 2012.04.04 12:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
I must admit that I chuckled reading Welsige bemoaning the absence of a fair and civil discussion. How ironic....
In any case, The Mittani's lead in votes and former position of chair was hardly in the best interests or tradition of democracy.
The CSM uses at-large voting, one of the more regressive forms of representation. Electing at-large representatives magnifies the power of minority bloc voting (read Goons). While meeting a low bar of democracy (voting), it fails more rigourous tests of fairness and substantive representation. It is for this reason that real world voting is geographically bounded by districts or ridings.
If Welsige is really concerned about improving the CSM, he should turn his attention to replacing at-large voting with a more representative system.
Cheers |
Temmu Guerra
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
57
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Posted - 2012.04.04 20:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
To use a quote you goons love to use.... "HTFU" |
Frying Doom
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
159
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Posted - 2012.04.05 10:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
You forgot ~Deal with it~ Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge. |
Samillian
Moonshine Industries The Last Chancers.
111
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Posted - 2012.04.05 10:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dustie Pyryt wrote:I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game. Why does CCP put up with the crap. It seems easy enough to track down and ban all players with Goon in there alliance/corp associations...
This kind of attitude leads to bad, bad things. Goons have always said they want to ruin "your" game not "the" game and they have held true to that the entire time I've been playing, just because you don't like it is no reason to call for a cull of the playerbase.
Edit: By the way I'm fairly sure there is no such word as "democratical". |
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Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1144
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Posted - 2012.04.05 12:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dustie Pyryt wrote:I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game. Why does CCP put up with the crap. It seems easy enough to track down and ban all players with Goon in there alliance/corp associations...
No you misunderstand Dustie. We don't want to destroy everybody's game, just your game. Dustie Pyryt. You are the only one we have any interest in messing with.
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Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
32
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Posted - 2012.04.07 01:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Delilah Wild wrote:I must admit that I chuckled reading Welsige bemoaning the absence of a fair and civil discussion. How ironic....
In any case, The Mittani's lead in votes and former position of chair was hardly in the best interests or tradition of democracy.
The CSM uses at-large voting, one of the more regressive forms of representation. Electing at-large representatives magnifies the power of minority bloc voting (read Goons). While meeting a low bar of democracy (voting), it fails more rigourous tests of fairness and substantive representation. It is for this reason that real world voting is geographically bounded by districts or ridings.
If Welsige is really concerned about improving the CSM, he should turn his attention to replacing at-large voting with a more representative system.
Cheers
I see the merit of your thinking, but you will agree this is a diferent topic enirelly.
One leads to the replacement of a ellected representative, other deals with the chosing of the representative.
Wich, btw, considering allt he incarnations the same person can have, might become tricky to separate people in "districts". What criteria would be used ? I totally think its worth its own thread. ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
32
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Posted - 2012.04.07 01:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I'm confused. Did the leap year throw you off? You missed April 1 by a wide margin.
Let's face it: the Goons would oppose any idea resembling this had their glorious leader not been the one to fall on his face. Do yourselves a favor and quit giving everyone so much to gloat about. Shut up, have your little Burn Jita party, and carry on.
Adapt or die, Goons.
u mad?
Seriously, your post makes no sense. Raging much? ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
32
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Posted - 2012.04.07 01:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Samillian wrote:Dustie Pyryt wrote:I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game. Why does CCP put up with the crap. It seems easy enough to track down and ban all players with Goon in there alliance/corp associations... This kind of attitude leads to bad, bad things. Goons have always said they want to ruin "your" game not "the" game and they have held true to that the entire time I've been playing, just because you don't like it is no reason to call for a cull of the playerbase. Edit: By the way I'm fairly sure there is no such word as " democratical".
Democratical
There, dont say you never learned anything from me. ;) ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
GondriA
BLUE EAGLES Pinked
6
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Posted - 2012.04.07 02:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Welsige wrote:Samillian wrote:Dustie Pyryt wrote:I think CCP should ban all Goon players since they have publicly declared that they want to destroy our game. Why does CCP put up with the crap. It seems easy enough to track down and ban all players with Goon in there alliance/corp associations... This kind of attitude leads to bad, bad things. Goons have always said they want to ruin "your" game not "the" game and they have held true to that the entire time I've been playing, just because you don't like it is no reason to call for a cull of the playerbase. Edit: By the way I'm fairly sure there is no such word as " democratical". DemocraticalThere, dont say you never learned anything from me. ;)
Democracy things on a game that CCP let us have the csm.... the bottom line is that the game is ccp's and they make the rules .... |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
245
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Posted - 2012.04.08 00:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Welsige wrote:It isnt democratic at all. Might be simpler and >> no effort << to CCP. But isnt democratic as it dosent try to maintain the representability of the interests of the voters. But it is democratic. You voted this clown into office precisely because of what he is. And true to himself and you he did not dissapoint. His interests are your interests. His decisions represent YOUR decisions. Live with the choices and consequences that you and your candidate made.
FFS, you're all part of the same alliance. Choose a better (less destructive) candidate next time...
Or choose another clown and watch him make an ass of himself. Your choice, because that's how democracy works.
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Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial Rooks and Kings
1266
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Posted - 2012.04.08 21:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
People who voted for mittens will be represented, just not by him, in the same spirit as the 30K+ votes that went to people who didn't make it top 14 will be represented too, just not by the person they voted for.
Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1486
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Posted - 2012.04.09 18:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
This wouldn't even be an issue if the CSM took the proper position of representing the entire playerbase of EvE and not just their "constituents". The entire constituent point of view proves that the CSM is being used as nothing more than a meta-gaming tool for one large alliance in Nullsec. If you make it onto the CSM, you should be taking ideas and points of view from everybody and considering what is best for EvE and CCP as a whole and not just what would benefit your alliance the most. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1291
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 19:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Welsige wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I'm confused. Did the leap year throw you off? You missed April 1 by a wide margin.
Let's face it: the Goons would oppose any idea resembling this had their glorious leader not been the one to fall on his face. Do yourselves a favor and quit giving everyone so much to gloat about. Shut up, have your little Burn Jita party, and carry on.
Adapt or die, Goons. u mad? Seriously, your post makes no sense. Raging much? These forums need a :wtf: smiley. Or not. It would probably be the only content in half the posts. Anyway... :wtf:
Mad? Why would I be mad? Other than field far too many badposters in these forums, the goons have never done anything to anger me. I rather like some of you...which is why I suggested you guys shut up and quit pulling this very public hissy fit. It eats away at your credibility. Now instead of fearing you, the pubbies are laughing at you. I've got no reason to be mad. How about you?
Oh, and don't let us down on 4/28. I'm looking forward to shooting all the GCC ships. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Drake Draconis
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
452
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Posted - 2012.04.09 19:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Welsige wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I'm confused. Did the leap year throw you off? You missed April 1 by a wide margin.
Let's face it: the Goons would oppose any idea resembling this had their glorious leader not been the one to fall on his face. Do yourselves a favor and quit giving everyone so much to gloat about. Shut up, have your little Burn Jita party, and carry on.
Adapt or die, Goons. u mad? Seriously, your post makes no sense. Raging much? These forums need a :wtf: smiley. Or not. It would probably be the only content in half the posts. Anyway... :wtf: Mad? Why would I be mad? Other than field far too many badposters in these forums, the goons have never done anything to anger me. I rather like some of you...which is why I suggested you guys shut up and quit pulling this very public hissy fit. It eats away at your credibility. Now instead of fearing you, the pubbies are laughing at you. I've got no reason to be mad. How about you? Oh, and don't let us down on 4/28. I'm looking forward to shooting all the GCC ships.
Sorry Welsige....your gonna have to eat your foot now...you just got owned. ================ Get PAID FOR SPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152 |
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