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Author	Topic
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.06 23:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Well, thats the dillema every Caldari and Amarr pilot needs to weigh. If the RR is not on you by the time you are out of shields, then your RR gang is beyond fail - they are downrright incompetent. Or there was lots of lag. I like the last admission. What happens in all cap fights? Lag. True, excapt when you are dealing with the kinds of buffers in caps, and that you would be suprised how much lag actually increaces your chances to survive in large ops where caps are deployed. A bigger concession for me is losing the sensor booster. . .but thats another topic. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky I have simply stated that if you belive in DCUs, and you are going to fit one on your Chimera, then don't bother with CPRs - CPRs are a calculated module, and its either all in or don't bother. I understand the DCU sympathizers, and the pros and cons of both setups are clear - its the OP that makes the call as to what he fits. There's nothing wrong with fitting a DC and CPRs. -Liang Yes there is, thats the whole point. Every CPR added is more cap for a smaller negative effect (the negative effects are stacked, the positive are not) - that means CPRs only start to 'pay back' in terms of positive benifits with the addition of more mods - remove one and the benifit is significantly reduced. If you have lots of lows (shield tanked Niddy for example) then fitting one DCU is less of a crime (even though its still a crime) whereas the Chimera has to rely on every one of those lows - take one out and the whole thing fails in a spectacular way. You write that you are working towards a Niddy, thats a very DCU friendly capital (and it needs all the help it can get), but for the primary tankers (Amarr/Caldari) - DCUs are really a bad choise - especially when you fit CPRs. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.06 23:33:00 - [32] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky True, excapt when you are dealing with the kinds of buffers in caps, and that you would be suprised how much lag actually increaces your chances to survive in large ops where caps are deployed. A bigger concession for me is losing the sensor booster. . .but thats another topic. I know about lag and survivability... And yeah, I really like my caps having a sensor booster myself. :P Quote: Yes there is, thats the whole point. Every CPR added is more cap for a smaller negative effect (the negative effects are stacked, the positive are not) - that means CPRs only start to 'pay back' in terms of positive benifits with the addition of more mods - remove one and the benifit is significantly reduced. If you have lots of lows (shield tanked Niddy for example) then fitting one DCU is less of a crime (even though its still a crime) whereas the Chimera has to rely on every one of those lows - take one out and the whole thing fails in a spectacular way. Well, ok, from my perspective: - HP+Resists from DC II overrides need for CPR - Localtank is largely irrelevant, so fit CPRs Thus, Fit DC + CPRs... Quote: You write that you are working towards a Niddy, thats a very DCU friendly capital (and it needs all the help it can get), but for the primary tankers (Amarr/Caldari) - DCUs are really a bad choise - especially when you fit CPRs. Well all of my characters have all the sub-cap support for carriers of their respective races (Caldari x2, Gallente, Minmatar). The Minnie is just the first to start jump skills. Anyone need a triple of 30M SP characters extremely near caps in their corp? :P -Liang --
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.07 04:41:00 - [33] Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 07/10/2008 04:48:05 Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 07/10/2008 04:46:56 Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 07/10/2008 04:42:10 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Yes there is, thats the whole point. Every CPR added is more cap for a smaller negative effect (the negative effects are stacked, the positive are not) - that means CPRs only start to 'pay back' in terms of positive benifits with the addition of more mods - remove one and the benifit is significantly reduced. If you have lots of lows (shield tanked Niddy for example) then fitting one DCU is less of a crime (even though its still a crime) whereas the Chimera has to rely on every one of those lows - take one out and the whole thing fails in a spectacular way. Well, ok, from my perspective: - HP+Resists from DC II overrides need for CPR - Localtank is largely irrelevant, so fit CPRs Thus, Fit DC + CPRs... The first instance ( HP/Resist <=> CPR) is the marginal utility curve, if HP/Resist > CPR - then fit PDU, if HP/Resist < CPR - then fit all CPR. To do HP/Resist = CPR - so add them devalues both the HP/Resist (you gain resist, but boost penalty) and the CPR (not enough cap recharge). In the second instance (local tank is irrelevant), CPR = more RR = more de-local tank (via RR). To lose one CPR is less tank for everyone because you will cap out faster. Infact, local tank is irrelevant is the reason 33% cap regen is greater then the effect of one DCU's resist bonus. thats why DCU + CPR for Chimera = not good. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky You write that you are working towards a Niddy, thats a very DCU friendly capital (and it needs all the help it can get), but for the primary tankers (Amarr/Caldari) - DCUs are really a bad choise - especially when you fit CPRs. Well all of my characters have all the sub-cap support for carriers of their respective races (Caldari x2, Gallente, Minmatar). The Minnie is just the first to start jump skills. Anyone need a triple of 30M SP characters extremely near caps in their corp? :P -Liang No Amarr is sad - I wonder if there is some RP thing there. I know I trained Caldari because Felix is Caldari. . .I feel I made the right choise. So for me its Amarr, Caldari and Minmatar capitals. . .and I will say streight off the bat - 25% rep is an inferior bonus to 25% resists flat out. Th Niddy bonus should be closer to 10% per level - making the level 5 bonus 50%, 1500 HP = 1850 at 25%, 1500 should = something closer to 2000/2200 ish, a real boost. Infact, the previous rep-speed bonuss was a LOT better then this in terms of really making the RRs work hard. And the former slot layout was better too. As I see it, Niddy has been nurfed twice!! And it started bad. But its your 15 bucks. Also, I find you only ever need one carrier, but having 3 dreads is fantastic :) So unless your rich, I would say, get one Carrier (Caldari) and get a Moros (t2 sentries a must), Pheonix (torps suck in so many ways. . .but its always nice to be asking the FC which target is next because you have to account for the 1 ~ 2 min delay before impact) and get the Mini into a Revelation (or Nag if your feeling lucky). Save a bunch of isk, and be more effective!! If you get a mom, having a second account with a Carrier becomes important, especially if its the same race. As to your last quary - it depends on which mom your planning to fly eventually. . . ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.07 05:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky The first instance ( HP/Resist <=> CPR) is the marginal utility curve, if HP/Resist > CPR - then fit PDU, if HP/Resist < CPR - then fit all CPR. To do HP/Resist = CPR - so add them devalues both the HP/Resist (you gain resist, but boost penalty) and the CPR (not enough cap recharge). In the second instance (local tank is irrelevant), CPR = more RR = more de-local tank (via RR). To lose one CPR is less tank for everyone because you will cap out faster. Infact, local tank is irrelevant is the reason 33% cap regen is greater then the effect of one DCU's resist bonus. thats why DCU + CPR for Chimera = not good. I know where you're going with it, but I consider the DC II a "required module" - and it's HP/Resists are extremely welcome... but that's all the buffer I'm hoping to need, thus the PDUs are an inefficient choice (from my perspective). Quote: No Amarr is sad - I wonder if there is some RP thing there. Maybe. I've always been a Minnie apologist. :p Quote: But its your 15 bucks. Yeah, I know. :) Quote: Also, I find you only ever need one carrier, but having 3 dreads is fantastic :) So unless your rich, I would say, get one Carrier (Caldari) and get a Moros (t2 sentries a must), Pheonix (torps suck in so many ways. . .but its always nice to be asking the FC which target is next because you have to account for the 1 ~ 2 min delay before impact) and get the Mini into a Revelation (or Nag if your feeling lucky). Save a bunch of isk, and be more effective!! If you get a mom, having a second account with a Carrier becomes important, especially if its the same race. Good advice. :) Quote: As to your last quary - it depends on which mom your planning to fly eventually. . . Probably a Wyvern or Nyx. In the end, I don't think I'll really care. -Liang --
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.07 08:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky As to your last quary - it depends on which mom your planning to fly eventually. . . Probably a Wyvern or Nyx. In the end, I don't think I'll really care. -Liang Very fair. I think Moms need a major buff, untill then, I'm hard pressed to justify one. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.07 08:18:00 - [36] Edited by: Sokratesz on 07/10/2008 08:25:37 If you check the numbers, a DCU-II doesn't add that much EHP to begin with. And while the stories of one surviving due to it are easily exaggerated, you never hear of the other 99.5% where they live and die without. It's simply a trade-off of effectiveness. Either you give yourself a slight improved chance of surviving or you gear your entire fit towards what a carrier should be doing. If everyone in the fleet would fit for max EHP, the entire fleet would die, because it compromises rr-ability. And Liang. A DCU-II really has no place on a CPR-shield tank fit. The last CPR adds the full bonus with virtually no penalty. It would be madness to forfeit that for a little more EHP, you need the cap. Just yesterday proved again why you need every bit of cap you can get. The lag was horrid (at least, for me) so it was impossible to even think of timing the mods properly. One less cpr and i would have been out of cap.
Lubomir Penev Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.10.07 14:22:00 - [37] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: velmistr Ecco I think DC t2 in lows of chimera can buy few seconds to other capships. Yes, you do lose out on a few EHP but contrary to dreads (where EHP matters alot, because you're stuck with 10 minutes cycles of doom in which you cannot be repped!), carriers can always be rr'd so it's not nearly as much of a concern. Better to have 33% more cap recharge instead. Out of curiosity do you know if that TRI Chimera that was saved at 4O% hull sunday evening had a DC II fitted? (The Phenom) -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/

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