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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:54:00 -
[1]
Considering that NANO is only used in small gang fighting and that to be useful against a well balanced gang (logistics, ewar + dps) it needs logistics, ewar + dps why do you consider it needs nerfing in the first place.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.08 13:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 13:16:15
Originally by: lebrata
Considering that NANO is only used in small gang fighting and that to be useful against a well balanced gang (logistics, ewar + dps) it needs logistics, ewar + dps, and why do you consider that the non extreme fits need nerfing in the first place.
Originally by: kezz2411 actually ive been in large nano fights of 80 to 150 so no nano is not limited to small gang fights
Having nano ships in a large scale fight is not the same as having 200+ pure nano ships fighting each other.
Originally by: kezz2411 and yes speed needs to be nurfed.
WHY?.
Wouldn't you honestly prefer modules added of buffed to help catch and combat it instead of just removing it as a option?.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:05:00 -
[3]
Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 15:06:31
Originally by: Trimutius III
Originally by: lebrata
WHY?.
Wouldn't you honestly prefer modules added of buffed to help catch and combat it instead of just removing it as a option?.
As i remember there was told something aboyt serverside problems. And that they wasn't able to boost Drones and Missiles (to make faster drones and faster missiles). But I need interceptor that would be really good for blockade running. (Like now i have no problem while flying through camps in 0.0 secs on my Crusader) (Flying on Covert Ops is slower and not so funny)
Why it is impossible to make speed of drones and missiles about 10-20 km/s?
I was not referring to increasing missiles and tracking to the point where all you need do is throw out dps to pop stuff without the need to tackle it.
PVP is not PVE and trying to make it so all you need do is hop in your ratting drake or raven (or gunnery equivalent) and throw out a certain amount of missiles/ammo towards a hostile ship until it goes boom without the need to tackle it is not a skill.
What the pvpers are saying is that the addition of longer ranged webs that fit only on BS or even scripted webs that sacrifice str for range and visa versa along with the mwd killing scram and a slight alteration to nuets (so they kill cap at the start of their cycle instead of the end if they do not already) is of considerably more player skill orientated and would lead to much better pvp fighting than just swinging the nerf bat blindly at speed and turning gang fighting into slug fest f1-f1 crap.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 15:46:51
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Trimutius III
I was not referring to increasing missiles and tracking to the point where all you need do is throw out dps to pop stuff without the need to tackle it.
PVP is not PVE and trying to make it so all you need do is hop in your ratting drake or raven (or gunnery equivalent) and throw out a certain amount of missiles/ammo towards a hostile ship until it goes boom without the need to tackle it is not a skill.
What the pvpers are saying is that the addition of longer ranged webs that fit only on BS or even scripted webs that sacrifice str for range and visa versa along with the mwd killing scram and a slight alteration to nuets (so they kill cap at the start of their cycle instead of the end if they do not already) is of considerably more player skill orientated and would lead to much better pvp fighting than just swinging the nerf bat blindly at speed and turning gang fighting into slug fest f1-f1 crap.
But why there is no such types of missiles and drones that would be able to hit interceptor (with not really big DPS though) Boosting of webs also good idea, but why not make extra light and very fast drones, and why ships are able to fly faster then any missile. Very expensive missiles with MWD (special edition for missiles) inside why not?
Because ppl would only fly and fit those missiles and not bother to tackle plus its not just about missiles its about gunnery as well.
The real issue is team work, if you need to tackle to kill you need to defend your tacklers so you need to bring ewar and logistics to do so and work as a skilled and well organized team.
If all you need do is hit f1-f8 and throw out dps to kill summat all you will bring are dps ships and the only team work needed is to lock and fire on the same target (so no real team work or skill at all).
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cordial Ripper GGAAAAAAA MY EYES
Fix your text or nobody will read it.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:42:00 -
[6]
Edited by: lebrata on 09/10/2008 12:43:59
Ship classes made pointless for gang pvp with this nerf are:-
Frigate class (all) - Cannot speed tank post nerf so will be melted by hostile gangs in the first volley.
Cruisers and Hacs - Out performed in every relevant way by BC and BS after the nerf.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.10 10:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 09:33:51
Originally by: Murina .... with obviously no tackle (or they would have caught the gang)...
But the problem is, a nano'ed ship can just tap the MWD button and be out of web range in 2-3 seconds. That is faster than most other ships can lock! Once out of web range, they're out of scramble range too in 2 seconds more.
When you CAN'T effectively tackle, how can you catch people? You CAN'T, which is exactly why this unbalanced advantage has to be taken from nano-ships (and CCP seem to be realising this).
So no, I'm neither stupid nor deluded. I'm objectively evaluating the pro's and con's of the matter, and is finding nano'ing to be overpowered. If nothing else proves it, the sheer amount of nano'ed ships roaming around is a hard give-away.
YOU on the other hand is highly biased in favour of your I-Win button and will do anything to keep it!
Eh what are you using to tackle? battleships?
Proly ratting setups with a crappy t1 web fitted and no sensor booster lol. |
lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.10 13:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Scaen I didn't read many of these posts, but just want to add my opinion: Proposed nano nerf is of way too big scale, and this is from Caldari pilot who's alliance was struggling against nano gangs - and still is for great part, and crying for not being able to catch many of them There are some very good proposals, like one for Warp Scrambler that disables MWD, and some reduction in speed is probably good, but not this big. IMO things shouldn't be so straight forward, why there wouldn't be (actually single) cruiser class ship that can outmaneuver interceptor? Why should missiles have to be able to catch every cruiser class ship? (I'm Caldari pilot, remember?). You want to counter nano ships? Have a nano squad in fleet. You don't have minmatar race pilots? You don't need to, you can train any race ship class, remember?
So I'm not sure will this kill or not skirmish warfare, but I like those damn "rebels" outmaneuvering our heavy fleets, killing those foolish single ceptors who dare to follow them too far away from fleet. It's not like there is currently no counter to nano gangs, just people are lazy to setup fleets properly - yes, pilots and FC's need to finally understand that fleets to defend 0.0 space can't be straight forward and formed with ships that pilots offer/come in, fleets need sound construction. If you're lazy to make properly constructed fleet, if pilots doesn't want to change from their heavy tanked whatever_ship_he_currently_is_but_most_probably_a_drake than GTFO from 0.0 or die silently, don't cry about it.
Also it looks to me that many people think they must be able to kill absolutely whole opposing 30man fleet if they come with 100 pilots!?! But, since those 30 are nano, and they are nano to evade those heavy 100 man mostly_bs/drake fleets, most likely is that 25 of those 30 will escape. And there comes whining about those damn nano ships. But guess what? That will continue to happen even after nerf because you don't have enough tacklers in your poor constructed 100man fleet, they will run out of dic/hic bubles even after nano nerf, killing your ceptors and again you will need to adopt to game just like now. Or you will just continue to whine about those damn reds runing out of your guns/missiles range and warp away (damn them, how they dare do that!?).
Please, don't reduce choices in game, it's broad availability of choices is what makes this game so great.
cheers
/signed
Well said and well thought out.
I officially take back 50% of the bad things i have said in the past about MM. |
lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.12 09:37:00 -
[9]
Edited by: lebrata on 12/10/2008 09:43:40
The very fact that ppl are looking at removing options like speed instead of making additions that would take skill and team work to be effective against speed shows how much this idea is in favor of the blob F1-F8 i-win buttons PVE crowd.
Web range/strength scripts (like ammo has dmg/range) and the mwd killing scram are additions that would leave killing fast ships in the hands of players and much preferable to just removing the option from the game along with the usefulness and any survivability of almost all cruiser hulls and all destroyer and frig hulls in gang combat.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.12 09:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: lebrata on 12/10/2008 09:43:40
The very fact that ppl are looking at removing options like speed instead of making additions that would take skill and team work to be effective against speed shows how much this idea is in favor of the blob F1-F8 i-win buttons PVE crowd.
Web range/strength scripts (like ammo has dmg/range) and the mwd killing scram are additions that would leave killing fast ships in the hands of players and much preferable to just removing the option from the game along with the usefulness and any survivability of almost all cruiser hulls and all destroyer and frig hulls in gang combat.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 12:55:37
Originally by: Korizan Okay for balancing out of the ships base speed is great I don't think anyone can complain there, it is long over due.
Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 12:55:37
Originally by: Korizan Okay for balancing out of the ships base speed is great I don't think anyone can complain there, it is long over due.
Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:49:00 -
[13]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 13:53:11
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: lebrata Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
80% of the people flying said nanoships due to their overpoweredness, sure. Who would want to give up their button of invincibility after all?
Invincible against what?...ppl who wanna pvp in ratting and PVE setups maybe but against another pvp fitted and setup gang NANO is not overpowered in the slightest its quite weak.
If a nano is tackled its dead, if a RR BS or a member of a mixed gang with logistic support is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, wanna talk about invulnerability how about snipers, all standardly fitted ships cannot even lock them at the range they operate at let alone hit them and if you get close or summat drops out of warp near them they just warp.......
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:49:00 -
[14]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 16:07:12
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: lebrata Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
80% of the people flying said nanoships due to their overpoweredness, sure. Who would want to give up their button of invincibility after all?
Invincible against what?...ppl who wanna pvp in ratting and PVE setups maybe, but against another pvp fitted and setup gangs NANO is not overpowered in the slightest its quite weak.
Wanna talk about invulnerability?...
If a nano is tackled its dead, NANO melts when tackled.
If a RR BS is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
If a member of a mixed gang with logistic support is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its logistic buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
How about snipers?
All standardly fitted ships cannot even lock them at the range snipers operate at let alone hit them and if you get close or summat drops out of warp near them they just warp.......ect ect.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:46:00 -
[15]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 16:55:14
Originally by: Tehyarec Blaster ships. Autocannon ships. Rail ships. Anything with limited range and tracking, really. Hell, even missiles don't hit nano ships because they move too fast, or if they hit, they do no damage. Drones can't touch them either. Unlike what you seem to think, PVP fit doesn't exclusively mean nano fit, even at this day and age.
So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?...ok i see the problem now you think like a ratter. Maybe you should call this nerf the "waaa sit still so i can kill you like i do rats" nerf?.
Originally by: Tehyarec While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them.
So let me understand this, NANO should be nerfed cos your alliance does not have a varied and versatile membership, maybe you should recruit a pvp corp that can show you how to tackle and defend tacklers instead of just having carebears with carebear skills and complaining cos eve is too hard for you?.
Originally by: Tehyarec And what, pray tell, will tackle (that is, web) a nano aside from another nano or a Huginn/Rapier? Nothing. As such, your point is not valid.
Fast tacklers are almost essential against any form of gang not just nano and yes the web bonused ships are the best but any will do if you work as a team and defend them with logistic and ewar.
Originally by: Tehyarec You assume he has buddies, whereas a single Vagabond can kill many battleship fits easily (yes, even PVP ones). And even he has buddies, the nano can just run off too. Again, not really a relevant point.
Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Except when the logistics gets annihilated due to being focus-fired.
Except when there's no logistics around to begin with.
And again you present a scenario where the target can survive, but CANNOT FIGHT BACK.
1. You wanna try breaking a spider tanked logistic fit with nano that needs to slow down at close range to hit anything while the rest of the MIXED gang webs points and melts you?.
2. No logistics around?..oh look we are back to your lack of preparedness again.
3. "Cannot fight back???" A mixed gang includes some fast tacklers or it would not be fully mixed so they can easily catch nano ships while the EWAR and LOGISTICS in the mixed gang defend them and the dmg dealers pop the nano.
That is called team work noob.
Originally by: Tehyarec Nanos are actually quite a perfect counter against snipers.
How odd im sure the corp with one of the best K/D in eve uses snipers and not only snipers but RAVEN snipers very effectively against all forms of gangs including NANO. They tackle with fast ships, jam/damp with ewar on the ravens and a ECM ship and kill with cruise from the ravens.
That is also called team work noob.
Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting in a alliance.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:46:00 -
[16]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 16:57:12
Originally by: Tehyarec Blaster ships. Autocannon ships. Rail ships. Anything with limited range and tracking, really. Hell, even missiles don't hit nano ships because they move too fast, or if they hit, they do no damage. Drones can't touch them either. Unlike what you seem to think, PVP fit doesn't exclusively mean nano fit, even at this day and age.
So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?...ok i see the problem now you think like a ratter. Maybe you should call this nerf the "waaa sit still so i can kill you like i do rats" nerf?.
Originally by: Tehyarec While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them.
So let me understand this, NANO should be nerfed cos your alliance does not have a varied and versatile membership, maybe you should recruit a pvp corp that can show you how to tackle and defend tacklers instead of just having carebears with carebear skills and complaining cos eve is too hard for you?.
Originally by: Tehyarec And what, pray tell, will tackle (that is, web) a nano aside from another nano or a Huginn/Rapier? Nothing. As such, your point is not valid.
Fast tacklers are almost essential against any form of gang not just nano and yes the web bonused ships are the best but any will do if you work as a team and defend them with logistic and ewar.
Originally by: Tehyarec You assume he has buddies, whereas a single Vagabond can kill many battleship fits easily (yes, even PVP ones). And even he has buddies, the nano can just run off too. Again, not really a relevant point.
Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Except when the logistics gets annihilated due to being focus-fired.
Except when there's no logistics around to begin with.
And again you present a scenario where the target can survive, but CANNOT FIGHT BACK.
1. You wanna try breaking a spider tanked logistic fit with nano that needs to slow down at close range to hit anything while the rest of the MIXED gang webs points and melts you?.
2. No logistics around?..oh look we are back to your lack of preparedness again.
3. "Cannot fight back???" A mixed gang includes some fast tacklers or it would not be fully mixed so they can easily catch nano ships while the EWAR and LOGISTICS in the mixed gang defend them and the dmg dealers pop the nano.
That is called team work noob.
Originally by: Tehyarec Nanos are actually quite a perfect counter against snipers.
How odd im sure the corp with one of the best K/D in eve uses snipers and not only snipers but RAVEN snipers very effectively against all forms of gangs including NANO. They tackle with fast ships, jam/damp with ewar on the ravens and a ECM ship and kill with cruise from the ravens.
That is also called team work noob.
Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting along with preparedness in a alliance.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.15 10:18:00 -
[17]
Edited by: lebrata on 15/10/2008 10:18:55
Originally by: lebrata Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off.
Here is the real issue for you and the rest aint it pal.
You have spent all that time killing rats and living in a dream world where your a great pilot and ship killer, having day dreams about your awesomeness. Then a vaga comes along and kicks your butt cos you were fitted with no nuet or any other form of pvp module and it bursts your little bubble.
A ratting ship forcing a pure pvp fitted ship like a vaga to disengage just by fitting a single nuet is a huge benefit to the ratting ship but you seem to think that its not enough...so what your mission running piece of crap should now be able to make pvp pilots stupid and sit still so you can shoot them as they do in your day dreams?.
The above attitude is your problem pal in a nut shell, your lazy, unimaginative (unless its a dream about how uber at pvp you think you are) and unwilling to improve yourself or modify your thinking.
You and ppl like you will be the downfall of eve.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.15 10:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: lebrata on 15/10/2008 11:53:51
Originally by: lebrata Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off.
Here is the real issue for you and the rest aint it pal.
You have spent all that time killing rats and living in a imaginary world where your a great pilot and uber ship killer, and having day dreams about your awesomeness. Then a vaga comes along and it bursts your little bubble by not sitting still like the rats do.
A RATTING ship forcing a pure PVP fitted ship like a vaga to disengage just by fitting a single nuet is a HUGE benefit to the ratting ship but you seem to think that its not enough...so what your mission running piece of crap should now be able to make PVP pilots stupid and sit still so you can shoot them as they do in your day dreams?.
The above attitude is your problem pal in a nut shell, your lazy, unimaginative (unless its a dream about how uber at pvp you think you are) and unwilling to improve yourself or modify your thinking.
You and ppl like you will be the downfall of eve.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.27 12:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Itukki Has anybody found a recording of the devblog?
***insert link here**** ;)
Its a few pages back. |
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