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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.10.06 14:27:00 -
[1]
Live Dev Blogs are back and first out is one about speed balancing! Greyscale and Fendahl will be prepared to answer your every question in this area and as always the Live Dev Blog will be hosted by Mindstar. This event will take place on Wednesday, 8th October, in the in-game channel "Live Dev Blog". It starts at 20:00 GMT and lasts for about one hour.
Post all your questions in this thread, but keep in mind that the topic for the evening is speed balancing!
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email
Reducing lag in EVE: The Jita Conundrum - StacklessIO or: How We Reduced Lag - Such Stuff As Dreams Are Made On - EVE64 - More to come... |
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.06 14:39:00 -
[2]
I'm wondering about your rational for doing this nerf. It seems like you are nerfing the effect(nano) rather than the cause(nano). Do you have any plans, other than nerfing nano's, to actually fix this? Or is now the time to train Caldari and just not bother with speed at all?
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Kappas.
Galaxy Punks Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm wondering about your rational for doing this nerf. It seems like you are nerfing the effect(nano) rather than the cause(nano). Do you have any plans, other than nerfing nano's, to actually fix this? Or is now the time to train Caldari and just not bother with speed at all?
Pretty much the same here, i really don't like the idea of the web/scram changes |
Xantina
Lyonesse. KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:09:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Xantina on 06/10/2008 15:10:18 I am wondering how you plan to accomplish to bring speeds back in line so ships are no longer untouchable while being able to spit missiles at their slower counterparts, while at the same time not making interceptors and some HACs pretty much obsolete. Under the assumption that this can't be done, will there be a follow-up patch "soon" to fix e.g. Vagabonds (always assuming they'll loose their current role by this patch, and need a new one).
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Gripen
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:11:00 -
[5]
I have one obvious question: WHEN???
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ArmyOfMe
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:25:00 -
[6]
well, ill make my question rather simple then.
a speed nerf isnt needed at all, its your gamemechanics that made nanos the only thing a small gang can use to survive in 0,0 against big alliances, titans, bubbles and jumpbridges, so my question is WHY??
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
The Froon
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: The Froon on 06/10/2008 15:38:30 Edited by: The Froon on 06/10/2008 15:37:15 As gamebreaking speeds are a problem, would a speed cap be a better way of balancing rather than web/scram changes? Depending on type of ship any speeds over a certain limit would generate hull damage for example. This way very short bursts of speed to escape are still do-able but combat at those speeds would be impossible. Failing that just setting a max speed without the hull-damage effects would be better. Normal 4-5k/s nanoships are easily countered as it is(BS heavy neuts,rapiers etc) so the only problem are the 15k/s crows zooming about |
w00kie
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:36:00 -
[8]
nerf the nanos!
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Kromaatikse Alain
Gallente Thiokol Spacefaring Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:40:00 -
[9]
I get the impression that interceptors won't be affected much, but that it will be much harder to use speed as your *only* means of tanking, especially on ships which aren't inherently supposed to be super-fast. It will still be quite possible to close distance quickly, I bet, so the SOP of a blaster-Thorax is not nerfed.
My question is about the effects of warp disruption weapons on the MWD. Will it just be a certain number of "points" required to disable it (which seems quite reasonable to me), or will it be specific module types? What effect, if any, will warp-core stabilisers have on this? (Bearing in mind that WCS have drawbacks of their own.)
An obvious solution to the "supersonic missile spammer" problem mentioned above, would be to cause launchers to jam if the ship is travelling faster than the missile would. This would balance missiles against turrets in this context, preventing ships that are effectively invulnerable from being dangerous. I wonder if the devs have thought of that one?
--- The key to knowledge is not to rely on others to teach it to you. |
Megumi Yumiko
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:42:00 -
[10]
How do you make the inty's and the hac's still something to learn for? and is there going to be a missile nerfe as if you nerf the speed you also need to nerfe missiles somehow..
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:02:00 -
[11]
Will there be a transcript or a written dev blog anytime this week for those of us unable or unwilling to attend a live dev blog at this time of day? --
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:23:00 -
[12]
What are your plans for ships that have a high speed base to begin with? Such as the Firetail, Scythe fleet issue, Machariel and so forth? It would be rather unfair to nerf these ships. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Arte
AFK
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:25:00 -
[13]
"What's more important. Do the ends justify the means or are the means to achieve your aims of nerfing speed equally important here"
"Are there one or more aspects of the original nerf proprosals that you feel are needed and would still like to introduce as a gameplay change "
I ask these because a couple of the original ideas smacked of offerings to those that would be smited by the God of 'Balance' with these changes, as they preyed at the temple of 'Gameplay'.
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Cat Gilligan
Caldari THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:28:00 -
[14]
Why the wide sweeping changes with speed that affect everything, even those that didn't need a speed hit (ie: interceptors and everything ELSE that isn't speed fitted at all getting slower)? We all know the problem is with cruiser sized ships and larger being able to reach insane speeds so why not just speed cap THEM instead of shooting everything else?
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Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity Utterly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:30:00 -
[15]
I would like to know if you have any solutions for blaster ships if the changes go through as planned. The web changes will cause huge problems for gallente ships in their trademark blaster role, who need good webs to lock down their target and kill them before capping out. Maybe web bonuses or tracking or range changes to make up for it?
Put in space whales!
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manasi
Caldari Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2008.10.06 16:37:00 -
[16]
Only one question...the idea of balancing the speeds seems effective, but brings out other issues, i.e. changes in all tactics relating to frigates and cruisers. What is being to done to adjust weapon systems that would not scale to the speed needed?
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:16:00 -
[17]
When the changes appeared briefly on Sisi they highlighted a problem with the tracking formula that, until now, 90% webs had largely covered up.
Namely: the tracking formula makes no account of the fact that as a target gets closer it subtends a larger angle and is therefore easier to hit. Because this is missing from the tracking formula on TQ it is possible to, for example, miss another Battleship at close range with large Blasters. With the web changes, the situation becomes even worse for large Blasters (e.g. a T1, unfit cruiser can kite a Blaster-Megathron all day at 1.5km).
My question is: Have you considered fixing the tracking formula to account for effective target size? There were a number of good suggestions on page 18-19 of the Blaster thread (Game Development forum) for using æfalloffÆ to modify the signature radius of the target as it gets closer, using a simple logarithmic function.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Dwindlehop
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:17:00 -
[18]
Will speed fit rigged interceptors with T2 modules be able to outrun light missiles? Will they be able to outrun Warrior IIs?
Is the ability to re-approach the gate and jump back through under various conditions (one web, multiple webs, webs plus warp scrambler, webs plus afterburner) a game design consideration for speed balance? Can you elaborate on those design goals?
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Avalira
Caldari Tau Ceti Green Card Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LaVista Vista It seems like you are nerfing the effect(nano) rather than the cause(nano).
Did you mean: the effect(nano) rather than the cause(blob)?
------------- Selling the following: Ark Jump Freighter
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Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:37:00 -
[20]
Did I do the right thing skilling up for a missile spewing Damnation?
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Meridius Dex
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:38:00 -
[21]
I too am in great support of the announced changes (web/scram/mass/speed) and also feel your additional attention to missiles based on relative ship classes shows additional insight on the part of the dev team.
I cannot wait for the changes to be implemented, so I second the poster above who's one question for the live blog is: when? -- Meridius Dex --
Amarr = EVE on Hard setting |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.06 17:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Avalira
Originally by: LaVista Vista It seems like you are nerfing the effect(nano) rather than the cause(nano).
Did you mean: the effect(nano) rather than the cause(blob)?
Yeah, I'm sorry
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TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:13:00 -
[23]
Q: why do you intend to nerf the minmatar recons? what was so overpowered about them in the first place.?
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TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Avalira
Did you mean: the effect(nano) rather than the cause(blob)?
There is absolutely nothing you can do about blobs. blobs are caused by the fact that nobody is willing to be the first to be outnumbered and numbers always helps.
changing game mechanics is completely ineffectual against blobs. You're better off trying to change how people think ( which cannot be done).
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Drumul Oaselor
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:33:00 -
[25]
Question: Are missiles or any other weapons being nerfed (or adapted) in order to suit these speed changes ? This is regarding all the rumours that have been circulating.
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EyeCeeYou
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:45:00 -
[26]
How, if at all, does the new server tech (Stackless IO) and hardware (Wolfsdales) change the speed hard-cap, which IIRC was one of the main justifications for the changes?
If the new tech you're using permits present speeds, then perhaps the entire speed nerf should be revaluated. As I understand it, slowing down the intys has required changes in turn to missles, which is going to affect balance across the board.
If existing speed cap can be handled by the new tech, perhaps internal specs for future design that keep the cap as it is coupled with specific nerfs to ships that shouldn't be going quite so fast(HACs) is a viable alternative worth investigating.
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:49:00 -
[27]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 06/10/2008 18:51:57
The problems as I see them are:
1. Cruisers that go faster than interceptors and frigates and generally ALSO have really good tank and tracking.. nothing can kill them (well.. ok mostly nothing). They should either be fast with bad tracking or slower with good tank.
2. Assault Frigates are worthless. They *should* be good ships to fly and definetly need a bit more speed.
3. Battleships should NEVER do more than 1200m/s. Thats just silly.
The speed of everything else is.. er.. satisfactory as far as i'm concerned. I would LOVE to see a rebirth of small ship combat. I'm sick of Titans. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.06 19:14:00 -
[28]
My question for the Live DevBlog:
- What has changed in the latest internal revisions compared to what we had seen on Singularity? A quick 30sec breakdown would be cool, and it keeps us from raising concerns that are already addressed.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dwindlehop Will speed fit rigged interceptors with T2 modules be able to outrun light missiles? Will they be able to outrun Warrior IIs?
Is the ability to re-approach the gate and jump back through under various conditions (one web, multiple webs, webs plus warp scrambler, webs plus afterburner) a game design consideration for speed balance? Can you elaborate on those design goals?
I think CCP defined those speeds as over the top in a previous blog. You just should not be able to outrun drones whose task is to kill small, fast things. Same with light missiles.
Here's my question: Marauders have been designed with the ability to kill small ships easily with their main weapons. NPCs, really, since their cost and sensor strength make it clear they're not really viable pvp ships. That's one of their perks.
If you tinker with webs (as it should, 90% mod for one module is a tad overpowered), how will you keep that ability intact in Marauders?
BTW, keep Domination webs as the best webs, they're absolutely no point changing changing the meta hierarchy, aside from screwing up their users. ------------------------------------------
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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:22:00 -
[30]
Uggg.
CCP, DO NOT DO A LIVE DEV BLOG FOR SUCH AN IMPORTANT ISSUE!
This is ******ed. All a live dev blog does is muddle the facts. You never present the actual mechanics of anything when you do a live dev blog. Its a stupid promotional stunt.
The Speed Nerf or whatever you want to call it is much too hot an issue to do it in this manner.
Write a freaking dev blog about it that actually has something concrete in it. Give us meat and not fluff. Hell, write 3 or 5 dev blogs about it. But PUT IT IN WRITING that way we can actually read it and decipher it and not try to glean from unclear verbal communication what you are actually saying.
Sheesh!
------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
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D4RT N3RDiUS
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:35:00 -
[31]
question: we can still get 5000 speed boats with a normal t2 fit? or we need to xpend one zillon isk in one snake set and obious and ridiculous faccion items to obtain that velocities? and wen we obtain thath velocities we are inmune ??
question: why you dont simple nerf the problem ships like the sacri ( a turret change for example remove the missiles and put some turrets ) ?
question : recons minmatar are useless now becouse of the web change? we got forced to train to gallente to fill the same role ? with the new scrambler modification? recons minmatar gona get some special boost like the falcon?
question: you gona nerf drones upgrades so small drones cant go to 8k of velocity? and you gona change the game mechanic so drones can do dmg witout orbiting you at 4000 mtrs sec?
question: so how is your new ideas of gerrilla warfare now and wath ships you think gona be the next nerfed becouse they broke the new gamemechanics? falcon ? is the next? or can you give us one idea of wath are you thinking with this patch? how is the new gerrilla warfare for ccp? RR batleships and ? seriusly pls.
question: how the large fleet batles are gona change becouse of the new mass of the batleships aling times and so you change time of titans alignment and DD activation time or you are gona make them more uber/good mode on?
question: is the small gang lost? now the only way to kill ppl in 00 is geting in the biggest blob?
question: you gona nerf missiles to and get some new ways to calculate dmg on missileboats?
question: were do you want to go with this patch? nerf small gangs?? and solo pvp?? and boost big camps in low sec as the new way to live in eve?
question: wy one new player gona train for comand ships minmatar now? or recon? or hacs?
question: can you tell us wy dont just nerf the problem boats
question:it is posible in the new patch pass one camp? with the new hic and the new scrambler bonus and webs changes? with ANI ship?
question: is stasis webifier useless with the new change? and now we use scrambler only?
question: assault frigs are the new takles?
question: we can obtain normal speeds like 5000 with a vaga? with normal t2 fit or 4000 at least? not 3000? at full speed? or we are gona use the double rep fit of the FUNNY GM who i dont remember his name? and says we maybe se some new fits with AB and MWD on ships ( seriusly nooz you are a joke and a lousy developer and i think you are one frustrated nano pilot who only fly ravens and get ****ed ) ...
question: Are you seriusly reading me??? lol im bored and i think this patch are still in development but i like to hear what ccp whant with this "nerf" i hope you get some good ideas and get some problems solved i hope but not destroing almost half of the decent and fun ships to fly in eve in the prosess of nerfing 4 or 5 especific ships and especific problems in eve maybe the solution is nerf the problematic ships and items so we cant go ridiculous speed not change the whole game mechanics..
PS: be carefull CCP with this pach remember lots of ppl are reading this and DONT like YOUR changes or you want all that ppl go to wWARHAMMER ONLINE or WOW ... i hope you got some good ideas :) not the crapyones who nooz have
PS2: HOPE YO UNDERSTAND IM FRIKING SPANISH AND CANT SPEACK well ENGLISH SRY ABOUT MI LOUSY ENGRISH SRY
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Slave Runner
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:42:00 -
[32]
1. The devblog detailed how you plan to apply a broad nerf that will keep the relative effectiveness of the speed modules intact. Why isn't the same logic applied to stasis webifiers? How keeps the reduction of faction overdrives to tech 2 stats the relative value between these two?
2. X-Instinct boosters will swap from speed increase to signature radius decrease and have their effect reduced to 7.5%. This results in a 8.6m reduction for a 115m signature cruiser hull. What do you hope to accomplish with these pitifull numbers? Seeing that HG Halo Omega implants are sold in Jita for less than even the ISK fee one has to pay in Angel Cartel LP stores, it should be obvious how generally unuseful even a 20% reduction is compared to other options. (Give it its 10% and move it to booster slot 3).
3. Will ships with the racial attributes "skewed slot layout" and "weak capacitor" that so far relied on damage evasion to survive will get some kind of adjustment to compensate their reduced survivability?
4. Since missiles are a weapon system that is designed to always hit, is resilient to many classic forms of electronic warfare via FOF and has no practically working counter (lol defenders), will we see the introduction of a "missile tracking disruptor", considering that the current outrunning of missiles as damage evasion is one of the primary reasons for this rebalance?
5. Ships with MWD cap penalty bonus were changed not too long ago to not generate cap out of thin air anymore. With the new MWD stats, will we return to those times or will we see a redesign of these ships?
6. What is your current take on the effects these changes will have on ships that are designed around a stasis webifier bonus, and the new web+scram combination warp scramblers on ships with a scrambler range bonus?
7. Why were scripts introduced with the reasoning that medslot modules with 3 distinctive benefits were too powerful, when now the warp scrambler gets a second effect without scripts?
8. The most prominent speed enhancing implants (Snake Omega, Rogue CY and MY series) are relocated to the same slot. What will happen to clones that have all 3 of them plugged in?
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D4RT N3RDiUS
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:43:00 -
[33]
and one thing i forgot to mention
question: why you only say this 2 days before the live dev blog? so ppl can get informed? and why is this issue lees importan than the walkin on station and fanfest?
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:46:00 -
[34]
Speed, while annoying when taken to the excesses currently used, does not really need to be hit at all.
What needs to be adjusted is the ability to A) Engage & pin these ships down, but not remove their ability to disengage & escape entirely. Specifically by enhancing the range of speed reduction modules (or introducing a larger class of module with greater range but higher fitting requirements).
B) Engage these ships and actually do some damage to them. Currently drones and missiles are largely ineffective against speedfits. -- Drone velocities should be increased considerably, and return range (currently leading drones beyond the commanding ship's range and then warping leaves the drones sitting dead in space). Drones without targets should return to their launching ship immediately or switch to another target. -- Missile explosion velocities and explosion radii need to be expanded considerably. Currently many missiles have the ability to overtake speedfits, but the pitiful explosion rad/velocity renders them wholly ineffective. This flaw completely removes entire classes of ships from the combat arena.
Tech 2 ammo, specificall, needs to be looked at very closely, especially those that have effects on the ship as a whole (speed, cap regen) as these stack where effects that are weapon-based (tracking, cap use) only affect the single weapon loaded. Bringing a ship's speed or cap regen to a standstill to use an ammo type renders that ammo type useless, if not more dangerous to the user than target. Again, these 'nerfs' eliminate entire ship classes from the combat arena (specifically: missile boats!).
T2 'high accuracy' missiles (javelin/precion) specifically need to have their 'nerfs' shifted to a per-launcher affect. They should also have their explosion velocity increased considerably as their primary role is to hit speedfits (not distant targets, as the range on jav/precision is only 3/4 that of standard T1).
Better yet, remove the heavy nerfs from all T2 ammo entirely as the detriments have made the only viable ammo used in PvP (for the most part) Faction. |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: The Froon Edited by: The Froon on 06/10/2008 15:38:30 Edited by: The Froon on 06/10/2008 15:37:15 As gamebreaking speeds are a problem, would a speed cap be a better way of balancing rather than web/scram changes? Depending on type of ship any speeds over a certain limit would generate hull damage for example. This way very short bursts of speed to escape are still do-able but combat at those speeds would be impossible. Failing that just setting a max speed without the hull-damage effects would be better. Normal 4-5k/s nanoships are easily countered as it is(BS heavy neuts,rapiers etc) so the only problem are the 15k/s crows zooming about
A speed cap is somewhat logical, but not one that causes damage to the fast ship.
A speed cieling, that gets harder to reach the closer you get (just like resistances) would make a lot of sense.
But then you'll know exactly how fast that enemy vaga can get, and if they exceed an expected norm you'll know you want the ship dead because it's fitting insane loot & snake sets. Fast ship pilots would suddenly find themselves chased like mice in a room of starving cats.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: D4RT N3RDiUS and one thing i forgot to mention
question: why you only say this 2 days before the live dev blog? so ppl can get informed? and why is this issue lees importan than the walkin on station and fanfest?
Walking on stations is the least important topic germain to Eve. It should never be brought to any table, period. Throw it out. Let people who want to play Vampire in space wait until WoD comes out.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:54:00 -
[37]
Considering that NANO is only used in small gang fighting and that to be useful against a well balanced gang (logistics, ewar + dps) it needs logistics, ewar + dps why do you consider it needs nerfing in the first place.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:58:00 -
[38]
Questions:
- What alternatives do you propose to maintain small gang/guerrilla/raiding warfare without a drastic mobility advantage?
- What justifies the massive blasterboat nerf on multiple fronts (approach speed, acceleration, effective 75% tracking nerf, MWDs can be disabled), and what do you propose to do about it if the speed change goes through as planned?
- Do you think cruiser sized ships are now survivable enough compared to their battlecruiser equivalents (eg. why use a HAC over a BC/CBC/BS now?), now that their huge mobility advantage is gone?
- As per last question, does this hold true at different ranges? (Eg. cruisers might be now MORE survivable within web range but far far less at 15-30, for example)
- Do you think this will encourage frigate warfare again, or increase heavy-only gangs e.g. BS remote repping + falcons?
- Have you considered other forms of changing speed and combat (e.g. Sarmaul's proposed "no damage dealth while MWD is active" solution) or is it only a matter of refining your current plan?
- How effective do you feel small, highly skilled outnumbered gangs are post-nano nerf? How much scope for fighting outnumbered do you feel there will be?
Thanks for your time. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:02:00 -
[39]
Why are you reducing cruisers and smaller to virtual uselessness with this nerf while also making tackling something that is not or rarely required to kill a ship in gang combat?.
Shouldn't you keep speed as it forces those that want to pvp to fit pvp modules like webs, nuets and points and work together as a team to get kills instead of just fitting for raw dps and hitting f1-f8.
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Furb Killer
Gallente Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:03:00 -
[40]
When can we expect AFs to be usefull? (In other words: When is the patch coming that will make the FOTM chasers cry?)
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Chavu
Minmatar Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:08:00 -
[41]
Question: I have Minmatar cruiser V, should I train HAC V (aka Vagabond V) or not? -------- Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:10:00 -
[42]
Will, should heavy missles be able to hit a frigate for the same damage as a light missle?
what are you doing about this?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Originally by: D4RT N3RDiUS and one thing i forgot to mention
question: why you only say this 2 days before the live dev blog? so ppl can get informed? and why is this issue lees importan than the walkin on station and fanfest?
Walking on stations is the least important topic germain to Eve. It should never be brought to any table, period. Throw it out. Let people who want to play Vampire in space wait until WoD comes out.
oh god I would never weant to play vamp in space, I want eve in stations.
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D4RT N3RDiUS
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:13:00 -
[44]
Quote: When can we expect AFs to be usefull? (In other words: When is the patch coming that will make the FOTM chasers cry?)
lol after the patch you gona cry more thah the FOTM ppl believe me :) lots of ships are screw after the current idea dont worry m8 :) ...
question: missiles gona get change in this patch? if so how this afect the mission runers with the velocitis of the fastest npcs ships now sometime barely hiting them with cruise missiles with the new missiles cant hit the small frigs how this gona work? you thnk this? caldari now are usseles for mission runer? dont forgot ppl who rat to live in 00 .. and rats gona scramble to? in 00
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:46:00 -
[45]
This...
What justifies the massive blasterboat nerf on multiple fronts (approach speed, acceleration, effective 75% tracking nerf, MWDs can be disabled), and what do you propose to do about it if the speed change goes through as planned?
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar This...
What justifies the massive blasterboat nerf on multiple fronts (approach speed, acceleration, effective 75% tracking nerf, MWDs can be disabled), and what do you propose to do about it if the speed change goes through as planned?
i guess its time for us to use null ammo and replace a web with a tracking computer.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.06 22:10:00 -
[47]
The fundamental question that must be asked:
WHY are you making such broad changes to a relatively balanced game, when the only problem ships are the high-end nano HACs/recons? Why not use a more precisely focused nerf, bringing nano ships back within the range of "damage reduction, but not invulnerability"? Such as:
1) Nerfing polycarbons back in line with all other rigs relative to their T2 module equivalents.
2) Nerfing speed implants to fix the problem of the huge gap between the top-end speed setups and the plain T2 speed setups, a gap that is FAR larger than the gap between T2/top-end for any other class.
3) Fixing precision heavy missile explosion velocity to allow them to be a useful counter to modern speed setups.
Since a more precise nerf like that would deal with the problem ships without all of the collateral damage, why not try something like this and then wait and see how it goes before adding other nerfs?
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Xenomorphea
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.06 22:27:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The fundamental question that must be asked:
WHY are you making such broad changes to a relatively balanced game, when the only problem ships are the high-end nano HACs/recons? Why not use a more precisely focused nerf, bringing nano ships back within the range of "damage reduction, but not invulnerability"? Such as:
1) Nerfing polycarbons back in line with all other rigs relative to their T2 module equivalents.
2) Nerfing speed implants to fix the problem of the huge gap between the top-end speed setups and the plain T2 speed setups, a gap that is FAR larger than the gap between T2/top-end for any other class.
3) Fixing precision heavy missile explosion velocity to allow them to be a useful counter to modern speed setups.
Since a more precise nerf like that would deal with the problem ships without all of the collateral damage, why not try something like this and then wait and see how it goes before adding other nerfs?
I completely agree with Merin. Implementing the changes as were seen on Sisi is going to open a huge can of worms and imbalance almost every ship class way beyond the current "imbalance" of the high-end nanofits.
The "nerf" should only affect ludicrous speeds such as the "faster than interceptor" 8+ km/sec Vagabond, or interceptors so fast that no type of weapon (also those built specifically for that ship class) can hit it.
Cheers,
-Xeno
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Shera Gron
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Posted - 2008.10.06 22:32:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Shera Gron on 06/10/2008 22:32:47
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The fundamental question that must be asked:
WHY are you making such broad changes to a relatively balanced game, when the only problem ships are the high-end nano HACs/recons? Why not use a more precisely focused nerf, bringing nano ships back within the range of "damage reduction, but not invulnerability"? Such as:
1) Nerfing polycarbons back in line with all other rigs relative to their T2 module equivalents.
2) Nerfing speed implants to fix the problem of the huge gap between the top-end speed setups and the plain T2 speed setups, a gap that is FAR larger than the gap between T2/top-end for any other class.
3) Fixing precision heavy missile explosion velocity to allow them to be a useful counter to modern speed setups.
Since a more precise nerf like that would deal with the problem ships without all of the collateral damage, why not try something like this and then wait and see how it goes before adding other nerfs?
qft.
i would also agree to the scrambler changes for an additional counter.
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Tak Sder
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Posted - 2008.10.06 22:36:00 -
[50]
One big reasons Nanos are so invulnerable is a previous patch. When you web someone their agility decreases, their inertia increases, and they don't slow down very fast. This allows a nano you web to fly right out of web range. How about undoing that, and maybe even giving webs a mild buff to increase range or rate of speed slowdown. Then they can slow down ships that are going too fast to fight. Voila, problem solved, and much less baroque than some of the solutions being proposed.
And of course, there was a very heavy handed missile nerf which brought in explosion speed, and oh by the way (for that and other reasons) rendered missile boats almost useless in PvP.
So now because of two previous nerfs, you have to pile on yet another ill considered, far reaching nerf? One that is very complicated, and has a lots of side effects. Like most nerfs, it will have lots of lots of side effects, will render billions of invested ISK worthless, render months of training time wasted, and be a medicine worse than the disease it is meant to cure.
How about making VERY SMALL, incremental changes here, and focusing on undoing parts of previous changes instead of adding on new ones?
-----
I know a old lady who swallowed a dog What a hog to swallow a dog! She swallowed the dog to catch the cat She swallowed the cat to catch the bird She swallowed the bird to catch the spider That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her She swallowed the spider to catch the fly But I don't know why she swallowed that fly Perhaps she'll die
Switch "old lady" to CCP, every animal to "nerf", and for die put in "have all her customers go play something else".
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.10.06 22:43:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Vitrael on 06/10/2008 22:43:20 With future HACs being much slower than the ones we have now, what will be done to preserve their usefulness and utility over T1 battlecruisers, which typically offer greater firepower and tank at less price and skill requirement?
In a phrase, how will you keep HACs from being the new AFs?
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ikoban
Amarr Scarlet Scourge Society
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: ikoban on 06/10/2008 23:09:30
Originally by: D4RT N3RDiUS question: we can still get 5000 speed boats with a normal t2 fit? or we need to xpend one zillon isk in one snake set and obious and ridiculous faccion items to obtain that velocities? and wen we obtain thath velocities we are inmune ??
question: why you dont simple nerf the problem ships like the sacri ( a turret change for example remove the missiles and put some turrets ) ?
do some research you fool!!
sacri used to be a turret ship. adapt or gimmie thine stuff!
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Irish Whiskey
Caldari The Black Fleet The Black Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:15:00 -
[53]
It would be very nice to hear the reasoning of not reducing a ship's agility while under the effect of MWD, since warping dependent on being aligned (a straight line).
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:17:00 -
[54]
just nerf poly's and im happy
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:37:00 -
[55]
Should be an interesting Dev Blog, although Im not sure how youre going to stretch a live dev blog to an hour just by talking about speed rebalancing..
So, in case youre looking to widen the topic a bit;
What's the teams thoughts on rebalancing the Black Ops BS and some of the faction ships (ashimmu, bhaalgorn etc) that have ended up a bit behind after a long series of changes (nos, EW, etc)?
Also, whats the teams views on dispersing the 'blob', - any news on 'fleet formations'?
ta.
C.
Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
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Demus DaVet
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:39:00 -
[56]
Minmatar frigs and cruisers are nanoed because that is the only way they can be of some use in the field. Minmatar recons are useful only because of their ability to counter speed. The only advantage Minmatar battleships have is the slight advantage of dictating range because of their slightly better agility and smaller mass. Even the faction BS, Machariel is flyable only if nanoed.
With this patch you effectively take any advantage off of Minmatar ships.
Question: Which of the proposed changes keeps any Minmatar ship from being outclassed and outperformed by the respective ships of the other factions and why should anyone keep flying them ? Other than having spent millions of SP and time on them ? ---------------------------- Implement Racial Fleet Setups
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:47:00 -
[57]
So the new cookie-cutter setups will be remote-rep gangs with falcon support?
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Billy Merc
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 00:09:00 -
[58]
As an amarr pilot it dont really effect me...but i would like to know how you intend on balancing out the vagabond..
All it has is speed...its dps is laughable..its sensor strength is a joke (ie a single multi can shut it down)..and the fact that in order for it to fight it takes a lot of risks getting in close.. neuts / webs / nos / ecm / hell even damps are all effective coutermeasures against a vagabond...
All they have going for them is speed...ie there forte is escaping...this is such for a lot of minmitar hulls...but this proposed nerf really only hurts one minmitar ship to the point of useless'ness...and thats the vagabond...now im liking the idea that yeah maybe it needs a lil toneing down...but not to the point of uselessness.
i mean you only need to look the the rook as a measure of how brutily sideways this game is becoming (as a player of 5 odd years)..and really what was the motive behind boosting force recons in such a way that combat recons are just a bunch of lemons ?? basicly why fly a rook when u can fly a falcon....then on the other side of the fence..u chave the badger mk III IE the pilgrim..it does not share none of the "enhanced" attributes u have bestowed upon is combat recon brother..where as the falcon..it shares same ew bonus as rook (getting a little side tracked..but there is relevence).
I find strengths and weakness's in all of the races...but really part of why this game has been so good is that in the past u needed a little cognitive ability to play it..by that i mean u needed to put a little thought into what u did...now days its becomming a matter of warp in, press go...fights over...i understand there needs to be a little balance in relation to speed..i'll be the first to say that..my gripe is more with the way in which you tend to "nerf in one hand" and wave a so called "boost" in the other..
as i pointed out, im not a go fast kinda guy..i like it nice and close...but im not everyone and IMO (yes im alowed to have one of those)this speed nerf needs A LOT more thought as it will be one of the biggest changes to this game in a very long time (gameplay wise)
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Techila Kalitas
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Posted - 2008.10.07 00:46:00 -
[59]
With regard to the possible nerf of polycarbon rigs, market forces have made these exceptional rigs more expensive than their counterparts (a point that could be argued in their defense) and the way I see it, it would be considerate to those who have invested in polcarbons (for their ships or as manufacturers) if the intention to nerf or not nerf polycarbons and the date of the speed nerf patch were made clear well in advance of their execution to ease the inevitable market crash. I'm sure that those who own Vagabonds or have invested in Vagabond invention or god forbid a Vagabond blueprint will agree with me here. |
Redklaw
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Posted - 2008.10.07 01:46:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Redklaw on 07/10/2008 01:48:52 I've never understood nerfing the entire community because of discrepancies that can occur at the bleeding edge of what is possible. So it's possible to get a Vagabond over 10Km/s if I spend billions on deadspace / faction equipment, T2 Rigs, and Full HG Snakes... At the cost of billions (notice its plural) of ISK worth of investment.
I'm not sure if CCP needs to be told this, but the average vagabond pilot doesn't have this type of money to spend on one setup with that kind of investment; after all, one disconnect / lag spike / whatever can put you out of the value of a couple of carriers.
The average Vag pilot is stuck at about 5-6km/s, which may be a bit excessive if you don't factor in the fact that Vagabond puts out less than half the dps as its Gallentie cousins, and has about the entire conventional tank as T1 Cruiser.
Well your nerf, from testing reported from the test servers puts that billions of isk Vag, at about 3.4km/s... Those of us that could never afford such setups are double screwed at this point.
Also there is going to be a huge impact on the rest of the Minmatar ships, such as our Recon Ships, Stabber, and Slepnir to consider in this matter. You're stripping almost every really good Matari ship away except possibly Typhoon on this nerf (BS Weight numbers are highest on Minmatar BS's for what reason btw?).
I'm pretty glad I spent a lot of time cross-training Gallente so I could make use of some of their blaster boats... oh wait...
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Xavieer Naidoo
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.07 02:00:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Xavieer Naidoo on 07/10/2008 02:00:43
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
1) Nerfing polycarbons back in line with all other rigs relative to their T2 module equivalents.
2) Nerfing speed implants to fix the problem of the huge gap between the top-end speed setups and the plain T2 speed setups, a gap that is FAR larger than the gap between T2/top-end for any other class.
^^pretty much my ideas too. CCP is touching way too many things at once. Instead of nerfing the nano's they're pretty much messing up many aspects of pretty well balanced game.
P.S And give me back my portrait you bastards!
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Kreeak
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Posted - 2008.10.07 02:30:00 -
[62]
The only question that needs asking is: why has it taken so long to do this re-balance?
Speed ships get to avoid most damage as a form of near-immune tanking, but speed also allows one to dictate range(how many tactics are affected by range?) and have far superior tackling capability compared to other setups.
...or lets have freighters, capitals, and battleships going 10km/s because it's fun and beats regular tanking anyway.
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f1ve dollar
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Posted - 2008.10.07 03:10:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Slave Runner Edited by: Slave Runner on 06/10/2008 21:02:17
4. Since missiles are a weapon system that is designed to always hit, is resilient to many classic forms of electronic warfare via FOF and has no practically working counter (lol defenders), will we see the introduction of a "missile tracking disruptor", considering that the current outrunning of missiles as damage evasion is one of the primary reasons for this rebalance?
This is my main question. Will there be some explosion velocity mod introduced because currently missiles have nothing against them except for speed where as guns have tracking disruptors that effect tracking speed or optimal or both along with speed.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.07 03:51:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 07/10/2008 03:52:48 Knowing that this entire "speed" topic is a very controversial topic for many who play EVE as it stands. More often than not, it is a sole reason why people continue to play EVE (because speed is fun), which is why takign any step forward regarding the matter is a delicate and potentially dangerous process to take.
QUESTION: Considering the huge (and often unseen) implications of even small changes to certain ship stats and mod stats, will you consider a "staggered" deployment of the speed patch so as not to "bite more than you can chew"?
QUESTION: Will this speed patch eventually give the AF a viable role again besides being a more expensive cruiser in a frigate hull?
QUESTION: What would happen to speed-based ships like interceptors, Vagabond, all blaster ships, etc once you deploy this speed patch? Will they still retain what basically is a distinct trait and survival tactic that is speed (either as damage avoidance/mitigation or as a method to get within range)?
QUESTION: What will be the proposed changes to make the MWD not a "mandatory" module alongside the stasis webifier? Most ship setups often suffer from having to fit a MWD, and often make more sense without the MWD.
QUESTION: Will anti-speed-based weaponry (like javelin missiles) actually be given a reason to be used? Also, will anti-missile deterrents be of use (defenders are basically lolfail)
QUESTION: Are AB's part of this speed patch and if so, what are the proposed changes?
QUESTION: Are there any planned changes to the stasis webifier and web disruptor/scramblers? If so, what are the proposed changes?
QUESTION: Will ships currently ingame affected by the speed patch be given a new role in case their old one becomes invalid after the patch? -
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Cheekything
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Posted - 2008.10.07 03:52:00 -
[65]
Why not create an item that activates a dead space area effecting a racial group's ships like the doomsday but not such a vast range sorted then :)
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Azieza
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Posted - 2008.10.07 03:55:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Azieza on 07/10/2008 03:56:20
Originally by: Kreeak The only question that needs asking is: why has it taken so long to do this re-balance?
Speed ships get to avoid most damage as a form of near-immune tanking, but speed also allows one to dictate range(how many tactics are affected by range?) and have far superior tackling capability compared to other setups.
...or lets have freighters, capitals, and battleships going 10km/s because it's fun and beats regular tanking anyway.
There are many ways to counter a speed tank, hit the average nano hac with a heavy neut and watch what happens. Most of them are weak vs ECM, or better yet use a Matari Recon ship against one (while they are still useful of course). Speaking of near-immune tanking, a falcon can tank about any ship that isn't specifically built to handle the threat of one. Nano-ing ships is not some I-win-at-eve-super-exploit as there are perfectly viable ways to counter the use of them, much as there are viable ways to counter ECM Jamming and other unique tactics.
You forget to mention in exchange for being able to dictate range and tackle, you run an incredible risk of being turned into wreckage fast if your tactic has been accounted for by your opponent.
That being said, I don't think that the extreme end of nano usage such as deadspace MWD's, Faction Mods, Snakes, and the such pushing BS'es over 10km/s is balanced (you can get a Machriel to about 11.4km/s with top end gear). Nor do I think that the usage of said equipment on a hac is balanced.
But I do believe that their is a niche for nano's in this game, and by destroying accessiblity to ships and setups that are NOT broken CCP will be destroying something that makes the game fun.
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45thtiger 0109
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:53:00 -
[67]
Quote: But I do believe that their is a niche for nano's in this game, and by destroying accessiblity to ships and setups that are NOT broken CCP will be destroying something that makes the game fun.
Question
Will the speed changes affect all ships from all of the races and what ship types will it affect mostly.
Question
Will CCP fix all of the T2 missiles as i have seen somewhere else in the fourm and what fixes will be dose to missiles.
Question
will CCP nurf the speed like what they did with the shield, Armor, Seige Launchers,NOS,Torp Range, ect. Do you think alot of people would packup and leave the game and CCP would then loose money. CCP i am asking you guys think before you put this Speed Nurf into action because as a great game as EvE-Online is you do not want to loose your player base or loose the money you are making with silly misstake with putting this nerf in.Because i would like one day to fly a vagabond, Rapier or a Munnin. like the other races. The minmatar race will not be a race of people choices anymore when they create a new character because of the speed nurf.
Thankyou
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:55:00 -
[68]
I have some questions. And I want them answered immediately.
1) What are the final mass considerations for ships in the Minmatar line? Specifically the Vagabond and Minmatar BS?
2) Will the warp scrambler still shut down MWD?
3) What will the final strength of the webifier be?
4) Can we get a real fourth bonus on the AF?
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.07 05:48:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The fundamental question that must be asked:
WHY are you making such broad changes to a relatively balanced game, when the only problem ships are the high-end nano HACs/recons? Why not use a more precisely focused nerf, bringing nano ships back within the range of "damage reduction, but not invulnerability"? Such as:
1) Nerfing polycarbons back in line with all other rigs relative to their T2 module equivalents.
2) Nerfing speed implants to fix the problem of the huge gap between the top-end speed setups and the plain T2 speed setups, a gap that is FAR larger than the gap between T2/top-end for any other class.
3) Fixing precision heavy missile explosion velocity to allow them to be a useful counter to modern speed setups.
Since a more precise nerf like that would deal with the problem ships without all of the collateral damage, why not try something like this and then wait and see how it goes before adding other nerfs?
Your proposal do little to fix interceptors going at 12km/sec. If they end up going 11km/sec, they're still nearly invulnerables. And just making missiles usefull isn't enough, guns need to hit them more than they actualy do. You need to change more things that you suggest, or, for practical purposes, you won't have fixed the issue.
Speed tanking had been designed with afterburners in mind, not MWDs. I applaud CCP for going back in that direction.
------------------------------------------
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Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.10.07 06:10:00 -
[70]
Why does your approach to slowing down the ships that you (CCP) seem to think go too fast include making ships that are ALREADY slow, slower? Namely: Battleships.
Is this poorly thought out speed nerf, that is seemingly mandating and even more poorly thought out missile nerf, going to include the catastrophically not thought out agility nerf too?
Is there anything you are planning to not nerf so that you can try to justify nerfing speed across the board rather than simply lowering the percentage boost you get from MWDs, which are the real problem to begin with?
Why are you guys NOT putting all of this in writing so we have something to hold you to when it goes live?
Why am I bothering typing in these questions when you guys aren't going to answer a single one in the live blog?
*
* |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 06:23:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Shadowsword Your proposal do little to fix interceptors going at 12km/sec. If they end up going 11km/sec, they're still nearly invulnerables. And just making missiles usefull isn't enough, guns need to hit them more than they actualy do. You need to change more things that you suggest, or, for practical purposes, you won't have fixed the issue.
Interceptors are not a problem. Notice that nobody ever complained about invulnerable interceptors, speed setups only became an issue once it was HACs and recons becoming invulnerable. Interceptors pay a heavy price for their speed, they have pathetic dps and tissue-paper "tanks" if they ever slow down. They can keep a point on you, but that's about all. And outside of people flying interceptor gangs just for the fun factor, interceptors have always been support ships, not a one-strategy-for-everything ship like a modern nano gang.
And guns can hit interceptors just fine. Properly fitted AFs, interceptors and destroyers have no problem killing even the fastest snake/poly interceptors.
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Vanthropy
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Posted - 2008.10.07 07:12:00 -
[72]
please keep proposed web changes!
that and what merin says..
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 09:18:00 -
[73]
Hmmmm... with the proposed changes to Webs i can see a lot of people getting back to gates/stations before u can kill em. More targets escaping ftl.
Yet again i feel the long way around option has been taken here. Wouldn't a simpler solution have been better like giving a webber & webber drones an accuracy falloff??
A T2 Webber with a falloff off 5km :
10km100% 11km90% 12km 80% 13km70% 14km60% 15km 50% 16km40% 17km30% 18km20% 19km10%
Overheat
13km100% 14km90% 15km80% 16km70% 17km60% 18km50% 19km40% 20km30% 21km20% 22km10%
Now i aint saying 5k falloff should be the set limit i just use 5k as an example more math would have to be done to find a ballance i'd say
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Steyny
Caldari Fun Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.07 09:43:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Steyny on 07/10/2008 09:43:27
Originally by: Antdung Hmmmm... with the proposed changes to Webs i can see a lot of people getting back to gates/stations before u can kill em. More targets escaping ftl.
Yet again i feel the long way around option has been taken here. Wouldn't a simpler solution have been better like giving a webber & webber drones an accuracy falloff??
A T2 Webber with a falloff off 5km :
10km100% 11km90% 12km 80% 13km70% 14km60% 15km 50% 16km40% 17km30% 18km20% 19km10%
Overheat
13km100% 14km90% 15km80% 16km70% 17km60% 18km50% 19km40% 20km30% 21km20% 22km10%
Now i aint saying 5k falloff should be the set limit i just use 5k as an example more math would have to be done to find a ballance i'd say
This!! , but have CCP considered this at all ?
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.07 11:09:00 -
[75]
Edited by: BiggestT on 07/10/2008 11:18:24 Edited by: BiggestT on 07/10/2008 11:10:18 Edited by: BiggestT on 07/10/2008 11:09:37 PLEASE remember Command ships in this nerf. Their already marginally useful compared to cheap insured BS's and losing one of their tiny advantages of higher speed is going to hurt.
Oh and dont over-nerf missiles either Awesome EVE history
Missiles ba-oom! |
Ahimsaka
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Posted - 2008.10.07 11:10:00 -
[76]
I have HAC V (for vaga) and Recon V (rapier and huginn), and have specialized in these ships. I have maxed most the skills, and put in a few cheap hardwire implants. I fly t2 only (except perhaps a faction warp disruptor from time to time), and have never owned a single snake implant. It is barely viable, but I enjoy speed since it requires more than f1 through f8.
Q: on a scale of 1-10 (1 being a significant amount, 10 being like a fire from deep within), how much should I loathe the devs for potentially screwing up a year and a half of skilling?
Q: do you care at all that if you whipe out *arguably* the best ships Minmatars have, many people will quit on principle?
Yes, I have cross trained into the sub BS, non nano options that Minmatar have to offer. They aren't that impressive. Leaving us with the Sleipnir as one of the only shining ships in the Minmatar fleet is a joke. Especially when it's questionable if it will survive the nerf.
I have no problem with high end faction ships slowing down a bit, especially the ones that do not need to slow down to deal damage. Vagabond dps is a joke, and everyone knows it. Fighting at falloff is a joke. Even my damage fit is low at best, and the shields melt excessively quick.
Q: Have you considered changing the snake set effectiveness? Tweaking that would do wonders. OR making a slight polycarbon rig change?
Q: Will you boost the Rapier/Huginn web bonuses to increase to at least close to 90% (perhaps trade that for the TP bonus. A double web bonus makes sense to me, and is far more usefull most the time)?
Q: Why not just address the problem ships specifically, so that each is reduced to a rational speed, instead of making blanket changes that effect over all gameplay unpredictably?
Q: Are there intentions to allow Minmatar sub BS ships to use speed as a tanking / over-all strategy (ie dictate range, slow down to hit, speed up to tank)? Or will speed be used for dictating range only, effectively ending the days of nano ships?
My suggestion is to slowly leak changes, instead of slaping on another unpredictable, broad scale patch/nerf that will inevitably screw up the ballance (which at this point isn't THAT bad imo...). Truth is individual ships need help more than the game mechanics.
My character is starting to look depressing. Give us pure Minmatar skilled characters some good news...
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 11:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The fundamental question that must be asked:
WHY are you making such broad changes to a relatively balanced game, when the only problem ships are the high-end nano HACs/recons? Why not use a more precisely focused nerf, bringing nano ships back within the range of "damage reduction, but not invulnerability"? Such as:
1) Nerfing polycarbons back in line with all other rigs relative to their T2 module equivalents.
2) Nerfing speed implants to fix the problem of the huge gap between the top-end speed setups and the plain T2 speed setups, a gap that is FAR larger than the gap between T2/top-end for any other class.
3) Fixing precision heavy missile explosion velocity to allow them to be a useful counter to modern speed setups.
Since a more precise nerf like that would deal with the problem ships without all of the collateral damage, why not try something like this and then wait and see how it goes before adding other nerfs?
I have to say Merin does have a point in the end.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Shadowsword Your proposal do little to fix interceptors going at 12km/sec. If they end up going 11km/sec, they're still nearly invulnerables. And just making missiles usefull isn't enough, guns need to hit them more than they actualy do. You need to change more things that you suggest, or, for practical purposes, you won't have fixed the issue.
Interceptors are not a problem. Notice that nobody ever complained about invulnerable interceptors, speed setups only became an issue once it was HACs and recons becoming invulnerable. Interceptors pay a heavy price for their speed, they have pathetic dps and tissue-paper "tanks" if they ever slow down. They can keep a point on you, but that's about all. And outside of people flying interceptor gangs just for the fun factor, interceptors have always been support ships, not a one-strategy-for-everything ship like a modern nano gang.
And guns can hit interceptors just fine. Properly fitted AFs, interceptors and destroyers have no problem killing even the fastest snake/poly interceptors.
Interceptors must be able to go over at the very least 7-8km/s to avoid them from being suicide mobiles.
6km/s interceptors die to a freaking battlecruiser using guns with enough range (say, FMPs / 220s) to hit, and unlike nano HACs/recons, they don't have the EHP to disengage well if something actually can hit them.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.10.07 12:16:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Antdung Yet again i feel the long way around option has been taken here. Wouldn't a simpler solution have been better like giving a webber & webber drones an accuracy falloff??
A T2 Webber with a falloff off 5km :
10km100% 11km90% 12km 80% 13km70% 14km60% 15km 50% 16km40% 17km30% 18km20% 19km10%
Wrong (assuming I'm interpreting your meaning correctly), that's not how falloff works. Asides from the fact that chance to hit as you go further into falloff isn't linear, my understanding is that you expect a 90% web to act as a 45% web at 15km.
It doesn't. What it does act as is a 90% web with 50% chance to take effect. (Chances are this will never change as otherwise any time a ship moved the server would have to recalculate the effects - range changed from 13,354m to 13,353m? OK, web strength changes from 75.114% to 75.131% - and work this out dozens of times per second)
This would be much much worse than what we currently have, since it introduces more chance-based mechanics that will quite possibly determine whether you live or die. A 10km web with 5km falloff would have something like a 2% chance of working at 22km, so if a fast ship was orbiting you with a point on, it would be completely down to luck (1 in 50 chance every 10 seconds) whether your web managed to "hit", at which point you could approach and probably get within 13km before the cycle ended, or not. There wouldn't be any real skill involved from either party, just one side hoping that the random die rolls kept missing and one side hoping they don't. The sad thing about this is that there is no absolute cap on range either, so you could potentially web someone at 35km if they got really unlucky.
Falloff works for turrets because each individual shot has a relatively low effect overall (removing what is generally a small amount of HP) and each shot's chance to hit generally has no relation to whether a previous shot hit. Webs don't fall into this category, as getting a web cycle on someone (especially someone who relies on speed) is a really big deal, it lasts for 10 seconds, and furthermore it is likely that you'll be able to close range meaning that your future web 'shots' will be much more likely, if not guaranteed to hit. Imagine if the chance to miss for turret falloff was rolled every 10 seconds and applied to every shot in that period, and furthermore once you started hitting well you got a bonus to future attempts...
Falloff for webs doesn't work. Mutable strength for webs in some sort of falloff range isn't technically feasible. What could work is multiple models of web with varying ranges and strengths (as per Goumindong's suggesting a while back), so you could fit a long-range low-strength web or a short-range high-strength one.
I am of the opinion that the strength of webs needs to be reduced in general, regardless of any considerations of nanoships or otherwise. 90% webs create a 13km sphere in which the only valid tactic is tank & gank. Signature radius, speed and so forth are almost completely irrelevant when both parties are webbed - hence why even an interceptor can't go within web range of a battleship. This is why AFs are currently useless (since their small signature and relatively high speed compared to large ships don't count for much) and also partly explains the push toward nanoships - if you eschew simplistic tank & gank setups then you need to stay out of web range in order to avoid the enemy forcing this on you.
To my mind a single-webbed cruiser should be very difficult to hit for a turret battleship, and a single-webbed battlecruiser should still be getting noticable damage mitigation (somewhere in the 20-50% area perhaps) from its lower signature radius and higher speed (as compared to a battleship). Obviously multiple webs increase the smaller ships' vulnerability and this is fine and good. I suppose my question (at the end of all this) is how CCP devs view this relationship of sizes.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.07 12:24:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 07/10/2008 12:24:06 I would like to know when we can expect to see these changes put into tranquility.
There are alot of us looking forward to these changes. As long as missiles are balanced to the new speeds (Are they yet?) I belive that the changes will make eve a better game. Thank you. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 12:30:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Antdung on 07/10/2008 12:30:37 It doesn't. What it does act as is a 90% web with 50% chance to take effect. (Chances are this will never change as otherwise any time a ship moved the server would have to recalculate the effects - range changed from 13,354m to 13,353m? OK, web strength changes from 75.114% to 75.131% - and work this out dozens of times per second)
Yea this is the effect i was referring to not the turret style falloff of a yes or no hit with a reduced chance but i do indeed see the problem of recalculation you've pointed out with my suggestion now.
I do however stick to my point that with reduced web efficiency people will however simply opt out of fighting and be able to simply carry on flying back to a gate and jump.. yet again favoring gank squads that can bring a lot of webs to bear and making smaller or 1v1 engagements very hard indeed.
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:29:00 -
[81]
My only real question is.. and its kinda complicated....
Do you see this fix as a stop gap... or do you see it as a once and for all fix.
A lot of the "fixes" I've read over the months and weeks on this issue are simply crap. Ad-hoc stopgap affairs that really only put a bandage on the problem, but leaves the issue to fester around the edges. Others I think are true solutions.. assuming CCP makes this a fundamental principal of game design going forward.
So, what I want to know is; Is CCP actually going to see this one through to a true conclusion?
Many types of focused setups are going to be hurt here. A few types of gameplay are going to go right out the window. Some of the design ideas for a couple races are going to be badly mauled(Min, Gal). And all because a few ships, with the right amount of money invested in them.. can become untouchable.
So is there some grand Unified Field Theory type force at work in the dev lab? I can live through a massive shakeup in combat mechanics if I think that there's some light at the end of the tunnel, some golden ideal about how combat should work. But if this is just a bandage on a problem because CCP isn't exactly sure how combat should play out, but knows it shouldn't happen like its currently working.... Well, I'm less inclined to be excited.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:37:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
It doesn't. What it does act as is a 90% web with 50% chance to take effect. (Chances are this will never change as otherwise any time a ship moved the server would have to recalculate the effects - range changed from 13,354m to 13,353m? OK, web strength changes from 75.114% to 75.131% - and work this out dozens of times per second)
I like the idea of variable ranged webs and solving the calculation per second issue could be solved with range vs str scripts.
10km 100% script 11km 90% script 12km 80% script 13km 70% script 14km 60% script 15km 50% script 16km 40% script 17km 30% script 18km 20% script 19km 10% script
Or less variations, but you get the idea.
Additions to combat a style are preferable to nerfs or the removal of a style.
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 13:40:00 -
[83]
Yea that'd eb a good idea! never thought of scripts
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Pattern Clarc
Naglihiem
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Posted - 2008.10.07 14:09:00 -
[84]
have you considered more fundimental changes to the hit/game mechanics in order to solve balance problems?
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.10.07 14:41:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Mitsuni Abashadoni on 07/10/2008 14:41:31 Since most of the questions I want answered are allready asked, I've got only one question, though from the last debate, it's a rather important one (I'd rather not see that a t2 rigged, faction Vaga with high grade snakes can reach a straight line speed of 5000 km/s used as an argument that Vagas still work again please)
1) Do the people who are going to be responsible for this understand the difference between straight line speed (i.e max speed, also known as bloody useless) and orbit speed, aka. usefull speed?) and that raw speed isn't the be all, end all to this equation?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.07 15:08:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Antdung
Yea that'd be a good idea! never thought of scripts
Id go for:-
10km 100% script 12km 90% script 14km 80% script 16km 70% script 18km 60% script 20km 50% script 22km 40% script 24km 30% script 26km 20% script 28km 10% script
That way they are just over the range of a t2 scram, giving players the chance to get into or out of scram range. Although it may make rapiers a little too powerful.
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Svjeza Roba
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Posted - 2008.10.07 15:10:00 -
[87]
Well,let me say this way.....NO NEAD FOR NANO NERF Como on,waisting time here,this all nano nerf thing is just geting crybabis calme down,so thay can again fly thay huge BS sit there and just push F1-F8,and watch the fight.Nano ships are easy to kill,easy to avoid and thay cost a lot of money,even a notmal t2 fit is still expencive.Hacs are usefull only if nanod,and still thay allso sufer consequencins of relaing on just one form of fight,Spead.On other side if someone did spend billions of isk to get his faction gear and expenciv implants,he deservs to be untuchibel for 50M BS.Dont u think so.A ferari Car will allways go faster than your sporty fancy Opel car,for a reason,it cost way more money.Intys r ment to be fast,faster than anything,cose only thing thay r ment to do is to tackel,and that is what thay do,relaing on their spead,as thair only wepon.So leave tham that way,please.CCP is trying to do uninteligent move and change whole game to suposly balance something that is not broken.Thay r going to afect to many aspects of game whit curent proposal of spead nerf.All nerf that did do in past to certain ships did make this ships uslesss.Thay did nerf all gallent ships and now going to do so to minimatar.So we can all just train for Caldari ships,and do the great scenario of pvp,means,warp in activate wepons and sit there,not moving,and watching the misilis fly all over.The only fun that pvp actualy have is the only one that make actuali do fighting tactics and improvise on batell field,is based around mwd,web and point,move fast,think fast,react fast,and actuali do activ pvp-ing and now CCP propse that we all shud fly BS ships size and fire misiles. CCP i know i did spen last few month working on your nano nerf idea,and it is hard after so long to see that u did go wrong direction,and just quit,but be reasnebel,just quit it befor u fu.. up this game.I can keep along whith few ships beeing nerf down,like gallent recons and mymr but if u going to nerf all pvp based moduls and all game mechanich i will quit this game.Cose im tired ,like many others,of your mesing up stuff. Im flying my vexor in pvp,and im hapy whith it,i dont mind geting engaged by vagas,or ishtars,or intys.I can stil survive and have fun,and i dont expect that im going to kill vaga in t1 cruiser,but from time to time it hapends.So basicli to every one out there,learn how to fly your pvp ship,form mixed gangs of diferent ship typs,and u will kill all nano guys.Stop crying on forums if your raven canot kill a nano ishtar,just kill his dronse you nobs and chil out.U can allways desingage and jump thru gate or dock,and if u r cought in belt,than that is your own stupid mistake for not using scan and watching local.So please give us all a break and learn how to pvp. CCP once more quit speed nerf,u are still in time. THX
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.07 15:23:00 -
[88]
Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 07/10/2008 11:18:24 Edited by: BiggestT on 07/10/2008 11:10:18 Edited by: BiggestT on 07/10/2008 11:09:37 PLEASE remember Command ships in this nerf. Their already marginally useful compared to cheap insured BS's and losing one of their tiny advantages of higher speed is going to hurt.
Oh and dont over-nerf missiles either
Oh and also.. You generally nerf mods that every ship setup tends to require, to stop homogeneity, fair enough. Remember that this isnt like the nos nerf CCP. You generally nerf mods that every ship setup tends to require, to stop homogeneity. But you cant simply nerf mwd's and expect everything to be ok.
Nos can be changed for guns and neuts, U really think an ab is gonna cut it? Remeber that speed is a MUST in fleet ops, ships without mwds atm often get booted, (all bs's need a mwd aswell ofc). Speed is a must, just as dps is a must, tank is a must and ewar is a must for any gang. You cannot change that.
By doing this your trying to change a current playstyle, as you did with nos. Nos worked, this wont. Why?
AN MWD IS STILL THE BEST MOD TO GET THE HIGHEST SPEED POSSIBLE
This will never change unless you omg boost ab's. While mwds are the fastest, every ship will require one. You dont like it? Well change the need to reproach gates, escape bubbles etc. (Yeah right like thatll happen). Doing this crazy stunt with warp scramblers shutting off mwd's wont work, ull just force ppl to fit smartbombs (GUESSE WHAT!?!?! SMARTBOMBS ARE THE NEW MANDATORY FIT! WELL DONE CCP U FAIL AGAIN!)
Some ppl will say..so what? just fit a mwd, even with the changes they wont be that bad. Then gueese what? CCP has compltely failed in thier objective to remove them from cookie cutter setups. Therefore the whole nerf was pointless. But as a side effect youve gimped blaster boats, sub-bs t2 ships, most minmatar ships, missile boats and to boot, youve skrewed up gate camping balance...
OR
you could just nerf poly's+snakes.
MWD will always be mandatory no matter what u do CCP, AB's will never be superior. Case closed. Nerfing poly's wont change this, but nano fits will be less common and we can all go home happy that the game is balanced.
/rant
Thankyou and Goodnight!
Awesome EVE history
Missiles ba-oom! |
Angelic Eviaran
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Posted - 2008.10.07 15:33:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Svjeza Roba Well,let me say this way.....NO NEAD FOR NANO NERF Como on,waisting time here,this all nano nerf thing is just geting crybabis calme down,so thay can again fly thay huge BS sit there and just push F1-F8,and watch the fight.Nano ships are easy to kill,easy to avoid and thay cost a lot of money,even a notmal t2 fit is still expencive.Hacs are usefull only if nanod,and still thay allso sufer consequencins of relaing on just one form of fight,Spead.On other side if someone did spend billions of isk to get his faction gear and expenciv implants,he deservs to be untuchibel for 50M BS.Dont u think so.A ferari Car will allways go faster than your sporty fancy Opel car,for a reason,it cost way more money.Intys r ment to be fast,faster than anything,cose only thing thay r ment to do is to tackel,and that is what thay do,relaing on their spead,as thair only wepon.So leave tham that way,please.CCP is trying to do uninteligent move and change whole game to suposly balance something that is not broken.Thay r going to afect to many aspects of game whit curent proposal of spead nerf.All nerf that did do in past to certain ships did make this ships uslesss.Thay did nerf all gallent ships and now going to do so to minimatar.So we can all just train for Caldari ships,and do the great scenario of pvp,means,warp in activate wepons and sit there,not moving,and watching the misilis fly all over.The only fun that pvp actualy have is the only one that make actuali do fighting tactics and improvise on batell field,is based around mwd,web and point,move fast,think fast,react fast,and actuali do activ pvp-ing and now CCP propse that we all shud fly BS ships size and fire misiles. CCP i know i did spen last few month working on your nano nerf idea,and it is hard after so long to see that u did go wrong direction,and just quit,but be reasnebel,just quit it befor u fu.. up this game.I can keep along whith few ships beeing nerf down,like gallent recons and mymr but if u going to nerf all pvp based moduls and all game mechanich i will quit this game.Cose im tired ,like many others,of your mesing up stuff. Im flying my vexor in pvp,and im hapy whith it,i dont mind geting engaged by vagas,or ishtars,or intys.I can stil survive and have fun,and i dont expect that im going to kill vaga in t1 cruiser,but from time to time it hapends.So basicli to every one out there,learn how to fly your pvp ship,form mixed gangs of diferent ship typs,and u will kill all nano guys.Stop crying on forums if your raven canot kill a nano ishtar,just kill his dronse you nobs and chil out.U can allways desingage and jump thru gate or dock,and if u r cought in belt,than that is your own stupid mistake for not using scan and watching local.So please give us all a break and learn how to pvp. CCP once more quit speed nerf,u are still in time. THX
Wall of text strikes you perfectly for a wrecking 932453457234 damage.
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Elhina Novae
Sky's Edge
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Posted - 2008.10.07 15:35:00 -
[90]
From all I heard this kind of started about the day I started to play this game, with Revelation:
What happened was, Rigs was introduced (?), New nber implants was introduced as the Snake implants (?).
Am I correct on this? Was nano considered a problem before Revelation?
What about simply trying to fix those, and make "ludicrous" speeds stacking "nerfed" instead of doing a complete makeover on all ships mass/agility/speed? ------------
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem?
Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.07 15:59:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Elhina Novae
What about simply trying to fix those, and make "ludicrous" speeds stacking "nerfed" instead of doing a complete makeover on all ships mass/agility/speed?
Why not adjust everything that has to do with speed/agility/mass while youre at it? ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:01:00 -
[92]
why attempt to fix something that isnt broken....
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:03:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Red Thunder why attempt to fix something that isnt broken....
Yeah but its like saying ishtar is good enough even without it being able to use both its bonuses to its full extent. Its like saying why give meaning to the TP bonus on rapiers because rapier is good even with a wasted bonus. Fixes and adjustments are GOOD. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Cybele Lanier
Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari QUESTION: What will be the proposed changes to make the MWD not a "mandatory" module alongside the stasis webifier? Most ship setups often suffer from having to fit a MWD, and often make more sense without the MWD.
I'd be interested to hear this too.
After the nerf comes round, it's going to be interesting to see how many people actually do up and leave. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence." |
thrillhelm
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:22:00 -
[95]
well i just want to reply to the topic instead of everyone that wants to critizize how they are doing this lets be logical do ya really think that by slowing ships down it will hurt the game . I think not. what ccp is doing is making the game more as it was intended a tactical game. there will be more engagments better engagments and more tactical fights rather than a few fast ships picking there fights getting back to gates when they dont wanna fight. and just plain old boring. what happened to nice gangs of all ship types jamming damping webbing.and all having a tactical role. the point being whats wrong with tactical gangs because those of us asking to keep the ships fast have gotten away from that. so let me just throw out there 3 things that i miss some good some bad. number one is putting together a gang using each ships highlights. and not its ability to go fast. alot of great ships set simply because they cant go fast. makes no sense. number 2 i miss flying around and going oh crap when i hit a bubble. thats how it should be thats what there 4 if we can motor out in 2 secs guys whats the fun when ya hit a bubble and its ok thats not the intended effect and i dont like that. they are in place to make it difficult to travel. and number 3 length of engagments really stink with the nano gangs no tank. so its can we get one no lets warp away and keep waiting for easier targets we go 12 k pretty hard to force the issue there aye. and battles will be much more intense and longer funner and more frequent with alot better tactics and such. also all ships are getting it so if ya had a fast ship you will still have a fast ship. so in closing what the nay sayers to nerfing are really saying is hey its not fair my ship cant outrun bubbles missles drones ceptors guns and can pick engagments come on guys do ya really think you should go faster than drones and missles and that the only ships in game that should should be able to battle u should be limited to 4 or 5 and thats it. maybe they should give us forcefields we could turn on whenever we dont feel like fighting that would be great. final thought if u are good at pvp you will be just as good after they fix it. i like both methods of fighting i have alot of fun nano and not but lets face it it needs fixed guys let ccp do there work and get it done. theres a reason this game has lasted so long and its not because of nano ships its because of staying realsitic ships outrunning things 1 1000000 of there mass is not very realalistic just wanted to shed my opinion on the subject thanks thrill
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Aydjile
Amarr The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:26:00 -
[96]
q - how about changing effect of the web?
instead of reducing speed, you could reduce agility of the ship. and increase range of the web of course. Reality exist only in our imagination. |
A Ingus
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:40:00 -
[97]
Originally by: thrillhelm incredibly painful wall of text
You might have excellent commentary or suggestions contained in that, but we will never know unless you edit it.
This is now the second recent wall of text post. People, use paragraphs and line breaks between them, please, kthnxbye.
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Rajere
Vicious Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:49:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Rajere on 07/10/2008 16:50:52 Why did it take so long to balance nanos? This isn't the first time they've had to be brought back in line.
After the nerf to Istabs/Nanofibers/OD to fix Nano-domi's nano-phoons back in the day, didn't it become obvious that you shouldn't allow -mass and +speed to exponentially impact mwding speed without stacking penalties?
Who allowed the Polycarbon rig to be added at all, much less implementing it in it's completely overpowered state of being superior to its T2 module equivalent? Was the developer who thought that was a good idea fired?
What checks will you put in place to prevent this from happening again, the next time someone gets a "good idea" to re-add the things you already know will break the game?
Unlike the vast majority of the players, some of us recognize the absolute necessity for these changes and realize that the current state of nanoing breaks not only the games physics but also breaks every single weapon and module mechanic. We also recognize that these changes are also intended to "undo" many previous bandaid attempts to bring speed in line, which fail to counter current speeds yet further breaks those combat systems against ships not able to reach those speeds. We applaud you for recognizing that you must bring the game back to some semblance of balance first, so that you may observe each system in their normal state and fix what is still broken. Some of us also realize how these changes will correct many outstanding balance issues, in addition to correcting nanoships.
However with that being said, there are outstanding concerns, particularly with the initial mass changes that were released, that impact in relationship to the agility boost to caldari ships, as well as for certain minmatar ships. Will you provide a full breakdown of the new mass/speed/agilities for each races lineup of ships? How to Fail at Eve
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Grath Telkin
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:16:00 -
[99]
Question 1: Say you were to hypothetically listen to the people worried about the vaga, and left it relatively fast, but nerfed all other nano ships, what would be its counter with your new crappy web stats? (that one is more for the ******s asking the vaga NOT get changed if the rest are)
Question 2: Why aren't you just looking at implants and rigs first? Seems the most logical step, for normal people, assuming your realize the huge jump in speeds you get from adding those
Question 3: What impact do you think this will have on small gang roaming (be realistic, put the script down, and answer honestly, not that pre canned "It will be fine" crap)
Question 4: Your new stackless I/O has made blobbing even easier, by actually allowing them to play when blobbed up. Have you thought of that in conjunction with question 3?
Question 5:
How much will it cost me for you to just leave it alone?
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:27:00 -
[100]
Q:
As a result of testing that's happened so far, what are the Dev's current opinions on the changes outlined in the original blog and their results? Especialy: - The viability of Afterburners - Web effectiveness reduction - Warp Scrams shutting down MWD (do not like personaly, but maybe if it were a % chance like ECM...) - Effectiveness of blaster boats - Effectiveness of gurilla warfare vs blobs.
Q:
In a coupple ship discussion threads people have tossed out the idea of giving some t2 ships resistances to webs as an ability, or having web effectiveness based on ship size, or different sized webs. Have you considred these ideas (at least on paper) and if you already think they won't work, explain why?
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Euriti
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 17:47:00 -
[101]
1) What are you planning to do about small gang warfare? Currently it's very hard to do small gangs without the usage of speed ships to avoid certain things like jump bridges and gatecamps?
2) What are you planning to do with the minmatar recons, the stabber family and other ships that currently only justify their cost if they are speedfit?
3) What are you planning on doing when it comes to Interceptors? Having light missile and drones tear interceptors apart in seconds will break them as they will have a harder time than currently tackling targets?
4) What are you planning to do when it comes to blasterships? Broken webs and much slower speeds with make blasterships even worse as holding down a target and getting in range will be impossible.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:07:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 07/10/2008 18:09:39 I'd like to know what CCP plans to replace nanos with for small gang warfare. Assualt ships are broken, black ops are broken, recons are fragile and tough to fit, RR bs are slow, bombers are slow and inneffective, ceptors are fast but very ineffective.
There are no compelling alternatives. Breaking the one thing that fits this role before replacing it would be irresponsible.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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John Duster
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:15:00 -
[103]
Edited by: John Duster on 07/10/2008 18:28:11 Edited by: John Duster on 07/10/2008 18:24:14 Edited by: John Duster on 07/10/2008 18:16:17
Originally by: Tak Sder One big reasons Nanos are so invulnerable is a previous patch. When you web someone their agility decreases, their inertia increases, and they don't slow down very fast. This allows a nano you web to fly right out of web range. How about undoing that, and maybe even giving webs a mild buff to increase range or rate of speed slowdown. Then they can slow down ships that are going too fast to fight. Voila, problem solved, and much less baroque than some of the solutions being proposed.
And of course, there was a very heavy handed missile nerf which brought in explosion speed, and oh by the way (for that and other reasons) rendered missile boats almost useless in PvP.
So now because of two previous nerfs, you have to pile on yet another ill considered, far reaching nerf? One that is very complicated, and has a lots of side effects. Like most nerfs, it will have lots of lots of side effects, will render billions of invested ISK worthless, render months of training time wasted, and be a medicine worse than the disease it is meant to cure.
How about making VERY SMALL, incremental changes here, and focusing on undoing parts of previous changes instead of adding on new ones?
QFFT /Signed /please
IIRC CCP stated that the big reason for the nerf is the only counter to nano currently is to bring more nano. I believe if anyone can can effectively carry an anti-nano module then balance will happen all on its own.
Has the thought of webs stopping people right away, or very rapidly, been considered? If it was considered and rejected in favor of an overall speed nerf why? Why is a nerf to overall ship speed needed when its combination of modules and rigs and plants that cause these insane speeds? Has the Idea of nerfing poly carbons, then nanos and MWD's been considered instead? If so, again, why was it dropped in favor of nerfing ships speed instead?
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.07 18:31:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 07/10/2008 18:09:39 I'd like to know what CCP plans to replace nanos with for small gang warfare. Assualt ships are broken, black ops are broken, recons are fragile and tough to fit, RR bs are slow, bombers are slow and inneffective, ceptors are fast but very ineffective.
There are no compelling alternatives. Breaking the one thing that fits this role before replacing it would be irresponsible.
A mix of EAS, AFs and inties? Fast aligning ships like hacs will still be viable for fast operations. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:01:00 -
[105]
Edited by: lecrotta on 07/10/2008 19:04:15
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
A mix of EAS, AFs and inties? Fast aligning ships like hacs will still be viable for fast operations.
Friggie gangs that can be wiped out by warriors II's and medium sized gun or missile spams?.
Fast aligning hacs for fast operations???????. Wtf are you going on about??????
Would you care to clarify that absurd drivel you just spouted or are you just spewing out words?.
Never post again please miss Lyria Skydancer you are an embarrassment to pvp and to eve.
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SSteejans
Blake Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 19:55:00 -
[106]
have the people in charge of the speed nerf changes looked at their targets much. the nerf is targeted at the very very few individuals who fly VERY expensive ships and pods to achieve crazy speeds. these people are flying at a great risk due to the extremely fragile nature of "nano" ships, and have extreme isk risks if they are defeated, which they are regularly. the proposed massive changes seem to be due to a tiny fraction of a percent of the eve population who are able to bring a select few ships to extreme speeds though extreme effort and expenditure. this seems like something they deserve to have due to the amount of effort, time, isk and risk involved.
in previous dev blogs about speed it was stated that an average pilot with no special implants and just a t2 mwd were achieving the "insane" speeds, which is contradictory to the evidence provided in the charts in said dev blog. please evaluate your thoughts again and explain how there is a problem with using no implants and standard t2 modules to make any ship go fast.
currently no HAC or even t1 frigate can come close to the speeds an interceptor can achieve with the same kind of gear.
please explain how the bolded statement needs massive sweeping changes that will create many many more unbalances that will need even more time and effort to be spent to fix. _______________ if CCP's logs really never show anything, i have to wonder, do they even have logs? |
SSteejans
Blake Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:01:00 -
[107]
Edited by: SSteejans on 07/10/2008 20:01:10 edit: double post. got an error first time.. please delete this. _______________ if CCP's logs really never show anything, i have to wonder, do they even have logs? |
AiYuJiao
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:06:00 -
[108]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 07/10/2008 19:55:20
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
A mix of EAS, AFs and inties?
Friggie gangs that can be wiped out by warriors II's and medium sized gun or missile spams?. These kind of gangs get owned by everything now on tq with speed as it is ffs.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Fast aligning ships like hacs will still be viable for fast operations.
Fast aligning hacs for fast operations, wtf are you going on about??????.
Making up vague and silly comments to try and make ships that will be reduced to virtual uselessness (cruiser sized and below and especially hacs) by this absurd nerf perhaps.
Or would you care to clarify that absurd drivel you just spouted?.
Never post again please miss Lyria Skydancer you are utterly transparent in your lies and manipulation and a embarrassment to pvp and to eve.
you sir, do not seem to know what youre talking about. frigate gangs still work. they just have to pick their targets. ive been in a gang of faction frigates and a few destroyers. we ran 20 jumps through lowsec, scored several kills, then found a carrier onlining a POS, proceeded to tackle it for 10 minutes while we waited for bigger guns to show up. if a carrier with smartbombs, heavy neuts and a near endless supply of drones cant take out a 10 man frigate gang in 10 minutes.... seems your little smack theory is wrong.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:43:00 -
[109]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 07/10/2008 19:55:20
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
A mix of EAS, AFs and inties?
Friggie gangs that can be wiped out by warriors II's and medium sized gun or missile spams?. These kind of gangs get owned by everything now on tq with speed as it is ffs.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Fast aligning ships like hacs will still be viable for fast operations.
Fast aligning hacs for fast operations, wtf are you going on about??????.
Making up vague and silly comments to try and make ships that will be reduced to virtual uselessness (cruiser sized and below and especially hacs) by this absurd nerf perhaps.
Or would you care to clarify that absurd drivel you just spouted?.
Never post again please miss Lyria Skydancer you are utterly transparent in your lies and manipulation and a embarrassment to pvp and to eve.
Learn to play. I have tried out the changes on sisi. I've tackled drone boats for several minutes in my malediction. Warrior IIs a problem for you? Learn to use your weapons for protection. Learn to fit a light tank even on a frig. Just because YOU get obliterated by warrior IIs doesn't mean everyone else is/will be. Oh and you can go ahead and fly your "great" tier 2 bulky BC in "fast" ops while I'll be in my hacs and we'll see about the worthlessness of hacs. Too much emo'ing over nothing tbh. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:46:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 08/10/2008 00:47:33 MAYBE WE SHOULD NERF SMART CARS, BECAUSE WITH ENOUGH MONEY THEY CAN GO FASTER THAN A FERRARI...
this nerf could very well be a game ender for alot of people... but i guess we will see...
its not like we get much of a choice in how our pay to play game actually plays....
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.08 01:00:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Jesse Jamess Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 08/10/2008 00:47:33 MAYBE WE SHOULD NERF SMART CARS, BECAUSE WITH ENOUGH MONEY THEY CAN GO FASTER THAN A FERRARI...
this nerf could very well be a game ender for alot of people... but i guess we will see...
its not like we get much of a choice in how our pay to play game actually plays....
If everything people cried about was a game ender, this game would have died years ago...
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Jesse Jamess
Caldari Red Tides
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Posted - 2008.10.08 03:42:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Jesse Jamess Edited by: Jesse Jamess on 08/10/2008 00:47:33 MAYBE WE SHOULD NERF SMART CARS, BECAUSE WITH ENOUGH MONEY THEY CAN GO FASTER THAN A FERRARI...
this nerf could very well be a game ender for alot of people... but i guess we will see...
its not like we get much of a choice in how our pay to play game actually plays....
If everything people cried about was a game ender, this game would have died years ago...
and attitudes that basically state ccp do whatever you want with my money and i dont care... is what allows companys to ignore input...
im not saying im right, im stating my opinion against the nerf.
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Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
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Posted - 2008.10.08 03:44:00 -
[113]
All the speed nerf is going to do is promote blob warfare. It will be 1700's warfare brought to eve. You line up here, I'll line up over there and we'll shoot each other till everyone dies. No tactics, No way to break the blobs.
But then again I guess thats how the BOD's want it huh?
Maybe CCP should pull there head outta BOD's ass, and do whats best for eve and not what there "elite" childern want. My Siggy :) Prove it wrong!
Originally by: SirMolle Strategy
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greeny knight
Amarr Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 07:22:00 -
[114]
i'm a long time player and saw the dual mwd ravens , why don't you implement that when you use more then 1 type of module that speed you up but you get penelized like hell if you use a combo of mods, for example, you have a interceptor with 1 mwd on fine then he puts a nanofiber in low , sig radius goos up 200% , instead of a nano in low he useses a overdrive injection system 200% penalty on his enertia ? so you stil have a variation in ship layouts but we can have a chance to splatt hem like flies
isn't it a better solusion then nerving with the bat so you break somthing again that whas not intended ??
and pleas fix cloackers , make the mods so they only can used on the ships they designd for
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Murkon Salesgirl
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.08 07:48:00 -
[115]
How do you intend to finally rebalance afterburner vs MWD? It seems the M = mandatory in most cases, no, in fact, in all cases where there's fitting left for a speed module, it's always the MWD.
The current problem with this is really simple to analyze: AB will help you avoid turrets at close range (or with a turret disruptor at long range), but the speed is simply too slow to avoid missiles and drones. Also, more speed is required to avoid bubbles or to burn back to gates etc, making MWD the obvious choice.
Suggestion for rebalancing: Make a script for AB (we know how ccp loves scripts!). Script would increase speed and acceleration (without the added mass of ab/mwd), but only for 1 activation as it would increase reactivation time. This would allow AB to have a short fast burst usage for the purpose of burning to gate/bubbles etc. For ships that rely on constant high speed, the MWD would remain the preferred option.
This would remove half the reason for automatic usage of MWD on pretty much every ship type. Think about it CCP. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.08 07:48:00 -
[116]
Originally by: AiYuJiao
you sir, do not seem to know what youre talking about. frigate gangs still work. they just have to pick their targets. ive been in a gang of faction frigates and a few destroyers. we ran 20 jumps through lowsec, scored several kills
I do not know what im talking about???.
We are talking about gang vs gang pvp and your bleating on about the ability for a bunch of frigs to gank a few solo morons and tackle one of the slowest and most vulnerable ships in the game if not supported?.
Maybe you should read back a little more before you make claims about ppl not knowing what they are talking about.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.08 07:58:00 -
[117]
Edited by: lecrotta on 08/10/2008 07:58:31
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Learn to play. I have tried out the changes on sisi. I've tackled drone boats for several minutes in my malediction. Warrior IIs a problem for you? Learn to use your weapons for protection. Learn to fit a light tank even on a frig. Just because YOU get obliterated by warrior IIs doesn't mean everyone else is/will be.
Oh joy you managed to tackle solo a single ship, im sure that means that if you and he were in a gang you would still be able to survive longer than the first volley?. We did gang vs gang combat on sisi when the nerf was in place and we tried out frig gangs, all of us had high sp and were good pilots and they sucked at anything apart from ganking solo morons.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Oh and you can go ahead and fly your "great" tier 2 bulky BC in "fast" ops while I'll be in my hacs and we'll see about the worthlessness of hacs.
You and ppl like you disgust me, you make up crap on a forum that is for real problems and solutions just to serve your pathetic wishes.
My BS aligns in under 10 secs, BC align even faster and cruisers not much faster than BC and none of them faster enough to make any difference in pvp so stop trying to make up nonexistent pvp scenarios where they will be useful.
You disgust me.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.10.08 10:01:00 -
[118]
Originally by: thrillhelm well i just want to reply to the topic instead of everyone that wants to critizize how they are doing this lets be logical do ya really think that by slowing ships down it will hurt the game . I think not. what ccp is doing is making the game more as it was intended a tactical game. there will be more engagments better engagments and more tactical fights rather than a few fast ships picking there fights getting back to gates when they dont wanna fight. and just plain old boring. what happened to nice gangs of all ship types jamming damping webbing.and all having a tactical role. the point being whats wrong with tactical gangs because those of us asking to keep the ships fast have gotten away from that. so let me just throw out there 3 things that i miss some good some bad. number one is putting together a gang using each ships highlights. and not its ability to go fast. alot of great ships set simply because they cant go fast. makes no sense. number 2 i miss flying around and going oh crap when i hit a bubble. thats how it should be thats what there 4 if we can motor out in 2 secs guys whats the fun when ya hit a bubble and its ok thats not the intended effect and i dont like that. they are in place to make it difficult to travel. and number 3 length of engagments really stink with the nano gangs no tank. so its can we get one no lets warp away and keep waiting for easier targets we go 12 k pretty hard to force the issue there aye. and battles will be much more intense and longer funner and more frequent with alot better tactics and such. also all ships are getting it so if ya had a fast ship you will still have a fast ship. so in closing what the nay sayers to nerfing are really saying is hey its not fair my ship cant outrun bubbles missles drones ceptors guns and can pick engagments come on guys do ya really think you should go faster than drones and missles and that the only ships in game that should should be able to battle u should be limited to 4 or 5 and thats it. maybe they should give us forcefields we could turn on whenever we dont feel like fighting that would be great. final thought if u are good at pvp you will be just as good after they fix it. i like both methods of fighting i have alot of fun nano and not but lets face it it needs fixed guys let ccp do there work and get it done. theres a reason this game has lasted so long and its not because of nano ships its because of staying realsitic ships outrunning things 1 1000000 of there mass is not very realalistic just wanted to shed my opinion on the subject thanks thrill
--- DIY copying in Liekuri 20:1 mineral compression Eve Online folding@home team |
Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:22:00 -
[119]
My only question is :
It's 9PM here (in GMT +10 land), on Wednesday the 8th of October. That makes it about midday in Iceland.
Where's the live dev blog that was scheduled for 8:00am? Where can I find answers from devs to some of the questions that have been asked?
All in all this has been a prety unpleasant thread to read, full of whining. I came here to find updated dev comments, not flaming and complaining.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:27:00 -
[120]
Originally by: REV001 Where is the written update on the changes that has been promised and never came ?
Everyone flooded the thread demanding for it and everyone had their own ideas that sounded far better than what CCP could think up and so didnt release their changes instead for fear of embarrasment?
...what it was a hypothesis -
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Trimutius III
Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:28:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 08/10/2008 11:28:32 Question for dev blog that will be 8 PM
I understand why you are balancing speed. But many ship will have their speed significantly reduced. Of course the possibility to get speed about 30 km/s or even higher isn't really good thing... But why speed falls to about 5 km/s (as I remember)? Is the only reason that it's hard to make drones and missiles moving at a speed 10-15 km/s?
------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ |
Aveng3X
Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:51:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Aveng3X on 08/10/2008 11:57:05 Hi CCP,
What will happen to AFs and EAFs? I *really* liked the speed changes to AFs when they were applied to Singularity.
Another bonus to AFs would also be nice, though the Harpy is great for long range work, the Hawk is sort of lost with very little difference to the Kestrel in terms of damage. The velocity bonus at the moment is next to useless, as even with precision missiles, interceptors and fast ships are hard to hit. I can't comment on the other races' AFs as I can only fly Caldari at the moment, but the Hawk does seem a little bit lacking.
Also, could you *please* fix Defender missiles? NPCs don't seem to have a problem spamming them and neutralizing half of my volleys, but on TQ (and indeed Singularity at the moment), they're next to useless. How about a specific defender missile launcher that can be fit in the highs, and the defender missile skill bonus changes with a 7.5% increase in "chance of interception", with the base value being around 15-25%?
Defender Missile Launcher I Powergrid: 60 CPU: 70 Capacity: 30 defender missiles (this is their only chargegroup) Rate of Fire: 5 seconds (reduced with Rapid Launch etc) Reload time: 15 seconds
Try testing it.. that way missile boats can easily be countered but aren't totally screwed over. With good skills you could be firing a defender off every 2.5 seconds. With Defender Missiles to 5, you'd be taking out an incoming missile with 18.75 of the 30 defenders you fire.
Could you also make it so Defenders are viable for fleet-wide defence, instead of a localized system? Make it so that they can target incoming missiles to your gang members, so that they're a viable form of fleet defence, much like tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners etc.
Overall however, I think missiles should be going faster to even have a chance of hitting the nano ships. As it stands though, I'm not really too bothered by HACs going around 3-4km/s, as to do any damage they have to get in close, and when they get heavy neuted, they die.
Deadspace fit Vagabonds and Rapiers that can manage over 10k is silly, as is having interceptors going that speed.
Have you considered maybe increasing calibration cost for astronautic rigs, or perhaps consider changing their drawbacks to signature radius increase, or powergrid cost or capacitor penalty to MWDs and afterburners?
I also think astronautic rigs that affect warp speed and cargohold amount should be separated as these aren't really combat oriented, more industrial/transport based. That way industrial characters using them shouldn't be penalized, though blockade runner pilots putting polycarbs on their ships are. Will you be rebalancing this section?
Having flown in many gangs with my FC almost exclusively flying a Rapier to tackle nano ships has given me second hand experience of what it's like through his constant moaning about how paperthin the ship is. Minmatar recons don't need to be weakened any more.
Oh, and also decrease the mass of webbed ships. Increasing it doesn't make sense - in the description it says something about "Micro Energy Streams" - surely these would encapsulate the ship and make it slow down faster?
I think the warp scrambler bonus, although an interesting idea, isn't going to be that useful for combating ships like the Vagabond. Any interceptor able to outrun one and get into 9km-12km range would be instapopped by its guns, drones, and web. I personally think that the new warp scrambling mechanics will be better suited for dispatching blasterboats that get in close.
Also people whining about how the Arazu will be the ultimate recon, it won't. A warp scrambler on an Arazu will have a maximum range of 18k, assuming with Recon 5 your scramble range is doubled. Sure you'll be damped, but drones and other gang members will be able to knock it out. In solo work, its DPS is crap, and if you can't tank an Arazu solo, chances are you can't tank much else. __________________________
Any views expressed are not necessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
YARR! |
AiYuJiao
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:57:00 -
[123]
Edited by: AiYuJiao on 08/10/2008 12:05:23 Edited by: AiYuJiao on 08/10/2008 12:00:22 Edited by: AiYuJiao on 08/10/2008 11:59:29 Edited by: AiYuJiao on 08/10/2008 11:58:15
Originally by: lecrotta
My BS aligns in under 10 secs, BC align even faster and cruisers not much faster than BC and none of them faster enough than the other to make any difference in pvp so stop trying to make up nonexistent pvp scenarios where they will be useful.
what BS aligns in under 10 seconds? actually, what BC aligns in under 10 seconds. please explain how you do this without fitting inertia stabs. you are making up numbers, while at the same time calling other people liars.
Originally by: lecrotta
Or would you care to explain how a hac aligning half a second or so faster than a BC will make it so uber?...no..your a pathetic and disgusting liar.
if you would remove your cranium from your rectum and look at some real numbers you would see that a BS or BC are much much slower compared to a HAC. for my proof i will use various setups for amarr crusiers, battlecruisers and battleships. im using my current skills and the same implants for all setups. information provided by eft: (also i should note these are with current tranquility mechanics, not post speed nerf, either way, the align times shouldnt be effected TOO much. if anything they would all be a bit higher.)
align times in seconds: (with mwd on/with mwd off) dual poly carb sacrilege: 7.9/5.5 dual armor rig sacrilege: 10.6/7.5 plated dual armor rigged sacrilege: 12.3/9.2 curse, 1 nano, 2 OD, 2 polycarb: 7.5/5.4 curse, no rigs no nano/istab: 10.9/7.8 harbinger, no rigs or plates: 15.7/11.4 harbinger, 1 plate, 3 armor rigs: 18/13.8 armageddon, 3 plates, 3 armor rigs: 25.1/17.6 armageddon, no plates no rigs: 23.9/16.4 abaddon, 3 plates 3 armor rigs: 26.2/18.7 abaddon, no rigs no plates: 25/17.5
please now explain how the align time differences shown here would never make any difference in pvp. as you can clearly see, based on just these average samples of a few ships, there are massive differences between the agility of a recon/HAC fit for speed and a battleship fit for tanking. you claim your battleships align in under 10 seconds and nano hac's align only half a second faster.. i have to ask what game youre playing, because its certainly not the same one as the rest of us.
in addition i would like to point out that as a fairly average skilled and implanted player, i find that nearly all of these numbers are pretty much on par with what i would expect each ship and setup to do. i would sure hope that my fast and fragile nano curse would align very quickly, while my triple plated abaddon would be a giant slow lumbering battleship. i mean if you think about it, ive added more than a meter and a half of armor plates to the abaddon, how in the world would it be as agile as a ship designs to be fast, with modules fitted to make it even faster?
oh yeah, you used the wrong "your". you wanted "you're".
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Frank Fry
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Posted - 2008.10.08 11:59:00 -
[124]
Ah yes, and boost afterburners on frigates. They're awesome.
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AiYuJiao
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Posted - 2008.10.08 12:04:00 -
[125]
Edited by: AiYuJiao on 08/10/2008 12:04:00 <continued from above due to character limit>
more on topic: i would like to somewhat agree with the person above with the smartcar analogy. just because a very very tiny group of people can take something normally fairly mundane and turn it into something rediculously awesome and fast, doesnt mean that a giant blanket nerf should be applied. there's guys out there who turn their piece of junk family sedans into insane dragsters. they spent thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to make this happen, and now their cars are not really very functional. sure they go crazy fast in a straight line, but they arent very practical for picking the kids up from school in. its the same way with pimped ships. sure, someone can spend insane amounts of time and isk to make a macharial go 25km/s.. but when hes going that fast, what can be possibly do that an interceptor couldnt? why not let him take is super expensive toy out and risk getting it killed. he worked for it, so its his right to have and fly it. personally, i think those crazy pimped ships are pointless ways of waving ones e-peen around.
also, i would like to say, fix assault frigs. by the sound of it, they are much much better after the "speed nerf" patch. how about implementing small changes like this rather than HUGE changes to EVERYTHING. little baby steps towards a greater goal please.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.08 12:16:00 -
[126]
Edited by: lecrotta on 08/10/2008 12:24:16
Originally by: AiYuJiao
what BS aligns in under 10 seconds? actually, what BC aligns in under 10 seconds. please explain how you do this without fitting inertia stabs. you are making up numbers, while at the same time calling other people liars.
align times in seconds: (with mwd on/with mwd off) dual poly carb sacrilege: 7.9/5.5 dual armor rig sacrilege: 10.6/7.5 plated dual armor rigged sacrilege: 12.3/9.2 curse, 1 nano, 2 OD, 2 polycarb: 7.5/5.4 curse, no rigs no nano/istab: 10.9/7.8 harbinger, no rigs or plates: 15.7/11.4 harbinger, 1 plate, 3 armor rigs: 18/13.8 armageddon, 3 plates, 3 armor rigs: 25.1/17.6 armageddon, no plates no rigs: 23.9/16.4 abaddon, 3 plates 3 armor rigs: 26.2/18.7 abaddon, no rigs no plates: 25/17.5
Your kidding right you really not this inexperienced and stupid?.
Let me guess you consider aligning to be the same as getting up to top speed, did you bother to login or just run str8 to eft?.
Stop posting until you know at least a little about pvp and also how fast a ship needs to be going to enter warp and how to turn and align fast.
From a dead stop and needing to turn my ship as well i can get a 6 x 1600mm plated hyperion (i used this unrealistic fitting example because its as heavy and slow as i can fit a conventional ship) into warp in around 15 seconds (and that is not including using and pvp tricks like a mwd turn).
Sisi seems to be experiencing problems at the moment but il give you a update on other non eft figures as soon as i can login, until then i suggest you think before you post about other ppl having their heads up their craniums.
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kezz2411
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.08 13:04:00 -
[127]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 06/10/2008 20:56:03 Considering that NANO is only used in small gang fighting and that to be useful against a well balanced gang (logistics, ewar + dps) it needs logistics, ewar + dps why do you consider that the non extreme fits need nerfing in the first place.
actually ive been in large nano fights of 80 to 150 so no nano is not limited to small gang fights and yes speed needs to be nurfed.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.08 13:11:00 -
[128]
Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 13:16:15
Originally by: lebrata
Considering that NANO is only used in small gang fighting and that to be useful against a well balanced gang (logistics, ewar + dps) it needs logistics, ewar + dps, and why do you consider that the non extreme fits need nerfing in the first place.
Originally by: kezz2411 actually ive been in large nano fights of 80 to 150 so no nano is not limited to small gang fights
Having nano ships in a large scale fight is not the same as having 200+ pure nano ships fighting each other.
Originally by: kezz2411 and yes speed needs to be nurfed.
WHY?.
Wouldn't you honestly prefer modules added of buffed to help catch and combat it instead of just removing it as a option?.
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Trimutius III
Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 14:42:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 08/10/2008 14:42:31
Originally by: lebrata
WHY?.
Wouldn't you honestly prefer modules added of buffed to help catch and combat it instead of just removing it as a option?.
As i remember there was told something aboyt serverside problems. And that they wasn't able to boost Drones and Missiles (to make faster drones and faster missiles). But I need interceptor that would be really good for blockade running. (Like now i have no problem while flying through camps in 0.0 secs on my Crusader) (Flying on Covert Ops is slower and not so funny)
Why it is impossible to make speed of drones and missiles about 10-20 km/s? ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ |
lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:05:00 -
[130]
Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 15:06:31
Originally by: Trimutius III
Originally by: lebrata
WHY?.
Wouldn't you honestly prefer modules added of buffed to help catch and combat it instead of just removing it as a option?.
As i remember there was told something aboyt serverside problems. And that they wasn't able to boost Drones and Missiles (to make faster drones and faster missiles). But I need interceptor that would be really good for blockade running. (Like now i have no problem while flying through camps in 0.0 secs on my Crusader) (Flying on Covert Ops is slower and not so funny)
Why it is impossible to make speed of drones and missiles about 10-20 km/s?
I was not referring to increasing missiles and tracking to the point where all you need do is throw out dps to pop stuff without the need to tackle it.
PVP is not PVE and trying to make it so all you need do is hop in your ratting drake or raven (or gunnery equivalent) and throw out a certain amount of missiles/ammo towards a hostile ship until it goes boom without the need to tackle it is not a skill.
What the pvpers are saying is that the addition of longer ranged webs that fit only on BS or even scripted webs that sacrifice str for range and visa versa along with the mwd killing scram and a slight alteration to nuets (so they kill cap at the start of their cycle instead of the end if they do not already) is of considerably more player skill orientated and would lead to much better pvp fighting than just swinging the nerf bat blindly at speed and turning gang fighting into slug fest f1-f1 crap.
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source killer
Amarr NorCorp Security
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:08:00 -
[131]
will there come a "text version" of the live dev blog, or did any1 get a audio recording of it? Since i mist it.
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Trimutius III
Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:19:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 08/10/2008 15:27:02 Edited by: Trimutius III on 08/10/2008 15:20:53 Edited by: Trimutius III on 08/10/2008 15:19:25
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 15:06:31
Originally by: Trimutius III
Originally by: lebrata
WHY?.
Wouldn't you honestly prefer modules added of buffed to help catch and combat it instead of just removing it as a option?.
As i remember there was told something aboyt serverside problems. And that they wasn't able to boost Drones and Missiles (to make faster drones and faster missiles). But I need interceptor that would be really good for blockade running. (Like now i have no problem while flying through camps in 0.0 secs on my Crusader) (Flying on Covert Ops is slower and not so funny)
Why it is impossible to make speed of drones and missiles about 10-20 km/s?
I was not referring to increasing missiles and tracking to the point where all you need do is throw out dps to pop stuff without the need to tackle it.
PVP is not PVE and trying to make it so all you need do is hop in your ratting drake or raven (or gunnery equivalent) and throw out a certain amount of missiles/ammo towards a hostile ship until it goes boom without the need to tackle it is not a skill.
What the pvpers are saying is that the addition of longer ranged webs that fit only on BS or even scripted webs that sacrifice str for range and visa versa along with the mwd killing scram and a slight alteration to nuets (so they kill cap at the start of their cycle instead of the end if they do not already) is of considerably more player skill orientated and would lead to much better pvp fighting than just swinging the nerf bat blindly at speed and turning gang fighting into slug fest f1-f1 crap.
U haven't understood me. Of course Cruise and Torpedoes and Heavy Drones should fly the same speed (or even slower, because of such nerf). But why there is no such types of missiles and drones that would be able to hit interceptor (with not really big DPS though) Boosting of webs also good idea, but why not make extra light and very fast drones, and why ships are able to fly faster then any missile. Very expensive missiles with MWD (special edition for missiles) inside why not? ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ |
lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.08 15:42:00 -
[133]
Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 15:46:51
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Trimutius III
I was not referring to increasing missiles and tracking to the point where all you need do is throw out dps to pop stuff without the need to tackle it.
PVP is not PVE and trying to make it so all you need do is hop in your ratting drake or raven (or gunnery equivalent) and throw out a certain amount of missiles/ammo towards a hostile ship until it goes boom without the need to tackle it is not a skill.
What the pvpers are saying is that the addition of longer ranged webs that fit only on BS or even scripted webs that sacrifice str for range and visa versa along with the mwd killing scram and a slight alteration to nuets (so they kill cap at the start of their cycle instead of the end if they do not already) is of considerably more player skill orientated and would lead to much better pvp fighting than just swinging the nerf bat blindly at speed and turning gang fighting into slug fest f1-f1 crap.
But why there is no such types of missiles and drones that would be able to hit interceptor (with not really big DPS though) Boosting of webs also good idea, but why not make extra light and very fast drones, and why ships are able to fly faster then any missile. Very expensive missiles with MWD (special edition for missiles) inside why not?
Because ppl would only fly and fit those missiles and not bother to tackle plus its not just about missiles its about gunnery as well.
The real issue is team work, if you need to tackle to kill you need to defend your tacklers so you need to bring ewar and logistics to do so and work as a skilled and well organized team.
If all you need do is hit f1-f8 and throw out dps to kill summat all you will bring are dps ships and the only team work needed is to lock and fire on the same target (so no real team work or skill at all).
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Poje
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:02:00 -
[134]
I saw a lot of talk about reducing speed and augmenting tackling, but one thing i didnt see much is instead of reducing the speed of ships, why not boost the speed of missiles, drones and tracking ?
If we look at today's planes, even if they are very fast, missiles are fast enough to shoot them down and tracking on automated guns is even fast enough to shoot down missiles !
So i would say keep the speed like it is right now, but boost all types of weapons so that shooting down a Nanoed ship is possible, if skilled and equiped properly.
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Trimutius III
Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:08:00 -
[135]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 08/10/2008 15:46:51
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Trimutius III
I was not referring to increasing missiles and tracking to the point where all you need do is throw out dps to pop stuff without the need to tackle it.
PVP is not PVE and trying to make it so all you need do is hop in your ratting drake or raven (or gunnery equivalent) and throw out a certain amount of missiles/ammo towards a hostile ship until it goes boom without the need to tackle it is not a skill.
What the pvpers are saying is that the addition of longer ranged webs that fit only on BS or even scripted webs that sacrifice str for range and visa versa along with the mwd killing scram and a slight alteration to nuets (so they kill cap at the start of their cycle instead of the end if they do not already) is of considerably more player skill orientated and would lead to much better pvp fighting than just swinging the nerf bat blindly at speed and turning gang fighting into slug fest f1-f1 crap.
But why there is no such types of missiles and drones that would be able to hit interceptor (with not really big DPS though) Boosting of webs also good idea, but why not make extra light and very fast drones, and why ships are able to fly faster then any missile. Very expensive missiles with MWD (special edition for missiles) inside why not?
Because ppl would only fly and fit those missiles and not bother to tackle plus its not just about missiles its about gunnery as well.
The real issue is team work, if you need to tackle to kill you need to defend your tacklers so you need to bring ewar and logistics to do so and work as a skilled and well organized team.
If all you need do is hit f1-f8 and throw out dps to kill summat all you will bring are dps ships and the only team work needed is to lock and fire on the same target (so no real team work or skill at all).
Like u can make special AntiInerceptor Cruiser, which will be using such drones (for Gallente), missiles (for caldari) and gunnery (for amarr and minmatar), they will be not very well tanked, so killing single interceptor will be easy, but for normal pvp u'll still will need a gang. And u know taklers will still be needed, if this ship will be good only against frigates. ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ |
Commodore Thurn
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:11:00 -
[136]
make speed a multiple of sig radius, the higher the speed the larger the sig radius of ships. this way ships could still benefit from speed by being able to put distance between themselves and other ships, but if they mix it up in orbit around other ships they will be vulnerable to receiving damage because their sig radius makes them easier to hit
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Telula
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:11:00 -
[137]
I'm wondering what will happen to Officer webs and scramblers?
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Optimus Primairy
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:13:00 -
[138]
Question: Are you gonna listen to the nano users that have been ganking other ppl for 2 years in the most horible way and now are afraid to be ganked very badly cause of their skill layout?
Hope not.. its only the speedfreaks that are complaining really
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Trimutius III
Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:14:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Poje I saw a lot of talk about reducing speed and augmenting tackling, but one thing i didnt see much is instead of reducing the speed of ships, why not boost the speed of missiles, drones and tracking ?
If we look at today's planes, even if they are very fast, missiles are fast enough to shoot them down and tracking on automated guns is even fast enough to shoot down missiles !
So i would say keep the speed like it is right now, but boost all types of weapons so that shooting down a Nanoed ship is possible, if skilled and equiped properly.
exactly what I was asking. As i remember there was some serverside problems with such speed. Why CCP couldn't solve that probems? (if i understood right the first devblog about nanonerf) ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ |
KillingMe Hardly
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:19:00 -
[140]
I have some question? request?!;
1. IMO, Speed Balance is NP, But its true that there is no opposition plan now. I neeeeeeeeeed web bubble!!! wanna propose!! 2. Do U know Interdictor? How does this ship use it atm??? I usually call this ship "Cuffin" I think this ship is no need atm because there is Heavydictor.... PLS MANAGE TO DO FOR HELP THIS SHIP!!!
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:35:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Poje I saw a lot of talk about reducing speed and augmenting tackling, but one thing i didnt see much is instead of reducing the speed of ships, why not boost the speed of missiles, drones and tracking ?
If we look at today's planes, even if they are very fast, missiles are fast enough to shoot them down and tracking on automated guns is even fast enough to shoot down missiles !
So i would say keep the speed like it is right now, but boost all types of weapons so that shooting down a Nanoed ship is possible, if skilled and equiped properly.
Speeds over 8km/s breaks the physics engine. That's why it's not really a very good solution.
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shnooker
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:37:00 -
[142]
I think that most of you speed tards are missing the whole concept here about what CCP is saying why have ships that are constantly untouchable for instant as everyone has obviously chosen often the VAGA for a minmatar pilot who is going to make a 10k per sec cruiser and never be touched by guns missiles or anything and is able to take down 1 single battleship and not get a scratch is a little ******ed especially when all other races have the same tech 2 ability. Stopping a vaga is imposible with other races cause they can't do the same speed to do so and the vaga is able to coast out of a rapiers range quite easily along with the ishtar no one cares about the speed really people want to be able to protect them selves from most speed tards who rely on speed to win.
1. I think speed should not be cut but the range of they're drones lowered alot. To have the speed on a vaga or an ishtar with 80km range with drones is rediculous.
2. I think guns and missiles should be able to track and hit the targets all the time and not get a hit of 0.0 cause the speed tard is doing 10k and hitting you doing 175 damage per hit.
3 for gate camps to solve that problem and get people to use tech 2 have the T2 BUBBLE be capable to shut down all forms of microwarp drives cause it causes the same type of anomalies as what it does in a mission to prevent people to use it hense brings back after burners as well
So all in all what I am saying I don't care about the speed at all but even speed has it's limits to be able to tank. Damage should still be recieved no matter how fast you go
And as far as the people go with they're ideas CCP is trying to keep a slight REALISM to this game to not make it seem arcadish the way most of you would like it that is what makes EVE so unique STICK to the real thing
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Bruder Predaiter
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:46:00 -
[143]
Make the speednerv and do it quick!!!!!!!!!!
I think BOB and the pets are against the nerv, so CCP dont patch the server. CCP is on BOBŠs side.
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Galvatr0n
Gallente LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:46:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Galvatr0n on 08/10/2008 16:46:57 I would like to know how CCP intends to justify changing the game in such a radical way when I and many others have spent a large amount of money on this game in order to A) train the skills it takes to fly these ships as the are skill intensive and being skill intensive should be hard to kill (and will we be able to move around our sp when the ships that we had trained for become obsolete since you changed them after we trained them?), B) Are you going to deposit isk into our accounts from the drop in price of items which were very expensive to buy thus making the ships harder to kill because the cost anywhere from 200 million isk to 2-3 billion isk. Should ships that cost this much and require millions of specific sp to fly not be difficult to kill?
And to Nozh I would like to know if you feel like maybe you are doing something wrong and that you have some very bad ideas and maybe listen to whining carebears to much or people that are too mentally shallow to think about how to stop various ship setups? Does it bother you that both your carrier nerf idea and now your nano nerf + screwing with unbroken mods idea have recieved the biggest outcrys of opposition in Eve's history? To management, maybe you need a new lead dev.
WE ARE LEGI0N. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. WE DO NOT FORGET. EXPECT US. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:51:00 -
[145]
Originally by: lecrotta
Oh joy you managed to tackle solo a single ship, im sure that means that if you and he were in a gang you would still be able to survive longer than the first volley from hiss buddies?...no...short sighted unrealistic moron much?.
This just shows how little you really know about how combat works TODAY even. I can obliterate any frig in an anti support sniper like the zealot in seconds. Your frig will be dead, speed changes or not. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
SnoopDizzle
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:54:00 -
[146]
Whilst better speed in the long term is a worthy goal. Surely more effort needs to be put into making smaller gangs more effective against large blobs. Perhaphs the anti blob weapons that exist need to be updated and bonuses for gangs changed so that there are weapons that get more effective the higher the concentration of ships on one grid. I am not talking about doomsday style weapons but perhaphs something similar to chain lightning that does a small amount of damage to the first ship and more damage as it passes from ship to ship.
We have all seen the latest video and there is clearly an anti capital ship weapon can you provide anymore information about this?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:54:00 -
[147]
Originally by: shnooker
1. I think speed should not be cut but the range of they're drones lowered alot. To have the speed on a vaga or an ishtar with 80km range with drones is ridiculous.
Fine il just fit drone range augments to compensate.
[shnooker=quote]2. I think guns and missiles should be able to track and hit the targets all the time and not get a hit of 0.0 cause the speed tard is doing 10k and hitting you doing 175 damage per hit.
Wtb vaga or gunship that can track anything at 10kms.
Originally by: shnooker 3. for gate camps to solve that problem and get people to use tech 2 have the T2 BUBBLE be capable to shut down all forms of microwarp drives cause it causes the same type of anomalies as what it does in a mission to prevent people to use it hense brings back after burners as well.
MWD killing bubbles are jump bridges not enough?.
If this happens nobody will jump into a bubbled camp again ever unless they have a massive blob thats bigger than those running the camp.
Originally by: shnooker So all in all what I am saying I don't care about the speed at all but even speed has it's limits to be able to tank. Damage should still be received no matter how fast you go
Doing so will spell the end to ppl flying small ships as without speed a volley from a very few ships will melt quicker cruisers than you can imagine and frigs will insta pop.
Small ships (cruisers down) should need to be tackled to be killed or they are useless in anything other that solo ship ganks.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:05:00 -
[148]
Edited by: lecrotta on 08/10/2008 17:14:03
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: lecrotta
Oh joy you managed to tackle solo a single ship, im sure that means that if you and he were in a gang you would still be able to survive longer than the first volley from hiss buddies?...no...short sighted unrealistic moron much?.
This just shows how little you really know about how combat works TODAY even. I can obliterate any frig in an anti support sniper like the zealot in seconds. Your frig will be dead, speed changes or not.
Ok can you make you mind up about what is good or bad muppet cos your arguing against yourself:-
Quote:
There are no compelling alternatives. Breaking the one thing that fits this role before replacing it would be irresponsible.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A mix of EAS, AFs and inties?
So first you claim that "A mix of EAS, AFs and inties" can replace roaming gang nano ships (post 105). Then you clearly point out that even now you can "obliterate" any frig in seconds even now on tq before the speed nerf?.
Wanna make up your mind if they suck or not or does YOUR truth depend on what you want nerfed???.?.
PS have you tried fighting NANO gangs in a mix of logistics, your fast frig obliteraters, ecm and few web and nueting recons?. After all if you can track fast frigs a cruiser should be child's play, we do and its good fun although it may be above you team and individual skill level as you seem to want ccp to do your fighting.
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Philip Sterling
Fat J Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:06:00 -
[149]
I'm suprised i haven't heard much about the lag factor in these threads. In my experience, a short lag on module or warp activation was not a big deal in the past (before speed became as big as it is). Now, when there's more people playing eve than ever before and lag seems to be getting worse before it gets better, a 2 second lag for one ship is enough time for a nano'd ship to close in from 40k and have you scrambled. Maybe it's just the connection out here in middle-of-nowhere utah, but I personally prefered the slightly slower overall pace.
Here's my question: have you guys (ccp) looked at any simpler solutions? eve is such a complex game that changing modules usually has some pretty wild consequences. Maybe it's time to simplify some things. One suggestion might be to just set a new attribute to each ship that is a maximum attainable velocity, regardless of any modules you have fitted (seems simpler than changing all the other attributes).
Another suggestion is to just change the equations for turrets and missiles to make it possible to hit ships going 10k/sec if their sig radius is high enough. IMO, this appears to be the best option. That way there would still be some strategic value in going very fast, but it wouldn't make you invincible. I realise that getting the right math behind that is far easier said than done, but it still seems worth a shot (see what i did there? sweet pun, eh?). There's a lot of folks out there who have invested a lot of training and isk into their speed, and it really would be a shame for that to be a complete waste after the changes go into effect.
P.S. - CCP, please nerf/boost EVERYTHING. |
Rock Gibson
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:13:00 -
[150]
I want you to solve the communications problems of getting knocked off the system when there are more than 20,000 people on! I continue to get knocked off and you should be concentrating on making what you have WORK, before you think about upgrades or enhancements! A lot of people in the US are getting VERY irritated about this and are definitely thinking of pulling the plug and going to another game!
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:14:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/10/2008 17:14:14
Originally by: lecrotta
So first you claim that "A mix of EAS, AFs and inties" can replace roaming gang nano ships (post 105). Then you clearly point out that even now you can "obliterate" any frig in seconds even now on tq before the speed nerf?.
Wanna make up your mind if they suck or not or does YOUR truth depend on what you want nerfed???.?.
Yeah, all anti support hacs that are bane of frigs use turrets. There is a ship called sentinel and it can fit TDs fyi. Besides, the whole point of making frigs the guerilla warfare ships is that they HAVE an EFFECTIVE counter. Nano's have an effective counter and it is to use the same type of ship but more of them; yes rapiers are nano ships aswell. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Eran Laude
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:22:00 -
[152]
Are there any plans to rebalance speed with the release of Empyrean Age 1.2? If so, when will we see that patch being rolled out?
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Stormee1
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:28:00 -
[153]
Ok I just have to put my two cents in on this one... I personally am GLAD they are nerfing the nano's its stupid that a ship that can do 400+ dps can move 8km/s+. HAC's with maybe the exception on the Vaga dont come with there rediculus dps and formittable resists for nothing. Also, I keep hearing people saying to nerf missiles... why whould they nerf missiles? missiles already have enough drawback as is. They dont do instant damage like turrets do. Torps aside they dont do very much dps. Also they dont get the "wreaking" facor that turrets also get. So it seems time that missiles have a good role in fleets imo, and that role is to counter fast ships.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:29:00 -
[154]
Edited by: lecrotta on 08/10/2008 17:45:15
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Yeah, all anti support hacs that are bane of frigs use turrets. There is a ship called sentinel and it can fit TDs fyi.
Like you say you can "obliterate" any frig in seconds solo so a TD is worthless unless you TD every "obliterator" ship in the gang your fighting.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Besides, the whole point of making frigs the guerilla warfare ships is that they HAVE an EFFECTIVE counter.
Effective counter??? f1-f8????
WOW your like bringing the skill needed to kill in small to med sized gang combat to all new levels with your amazing tactical and team work intensive counter to the friggie replacements to nano roaming gangs. Do you run f1-f8 combat classes?.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Nano's have an effective counter and it is to use the same type of ship but more of them; yes rapiers are nano ships as well.
You do not need more nano to beat nano you just need better pilots and organization and you can do it with less easily, especially if you have a well balanced gang. Seems you got the blob mentality bad their pal maybe you should skill up a bit and join a better alliance or corp its the only cure for blobitus.
Anyway you seem to think i do not want changes, im all for additions that involve skilled use and make gang fighting more interesting you Muppet. The scripted web idea that had less str but increased range the longer range the less web str and visa versa is a great idea, that would be perfect tbh along with the mwd killing scram and nuets that take effect at the start of their cycle not at the end.
Positive additions that need skill to be successful instead of blindly swinging the nerf bat is what is needed, only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:31:00 -
[155]
Is it totally understood by CCP that ALL of the proposed changes ALL happening at once has been analysed to death and found to be a completely insane idea?
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jacobean
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:34:00 -
[156]
Edited by: jacobean on 08/10/2008 17:40:43 To CCP
When is the cap empire carebear ship going to be introduced to the game is it going to be at xmass when the new patch is deployed .
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El Roi
Rainer Luxus
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:38:00 -
[157]
My suggestion:
Every ship gets a maximum speedlimit, but this limit can be exeeded. However, this won't be without consequences.
If a interceptor, which has a speedlimit of 5000m/s, flies 9000m/s it gets a permanent, percentaged damage on it's structure. That can't be countered with any resistance. With a total loss of the scructure , the ship explodes, regardless of any armor or resistance.
reg
Roi
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Aoi Hane
Amarr MagnaDyne Navy New MagnaDyne Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:38:00 -
[158]
Can we get dual monitor support, I would love to be able to move the overhead and alot of the windows over to my second screen so i can actually see what's going on.
Thanks!
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BFish
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:42:00 -
[159]
1. What is your motive for the nano nerf balance?
2. What do you think will happen as a result of this balancing?
3. What do you think would happen if the nano was in fact boosted rather than nerfed?
4. Rumours have been going around that you may change the CPU or Powergrid requirements of speed modules to lessen their usage. Is this true?
5. If the above is true, what will happen to the people who, during the nano nerf downtime, were undocked. Will they be flying ships which defy the laws of physics?
6. Are there plans for an interdictor-bubble-style webber, which webs everything in a 50km range?
7. Do you know that by nerfing nano you are upsetting many caldari militia members who treasure their precious nano drakes?
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:48:00 -
[160]
Edited by: SomeHardLovin on 08/10/2008 17:53:06
Originally by: Redklaw Edited by: Redklaw on 07/10/2008 01:48:52 So it's possible to get a Vagabond over 10Km/s if I spend billions on deadspace / faction equipment, T2 Rigs, and Full HG Snakes... At the cost of billions (notice its plural) of ISK worth of investment.
So here's the problem with that.. if you pop into 0.0 you will meet literally HUNDREDS of pilots flying that exact setup. What used to be special is now "the norm". That's where problems are now occuring. It wasn't that big a deal before because although a 8000ms Vaga is silly.. it was rare. Now everyone has one, and the problem is very obvious and they have pretty much overrun 0.0, making it less fun to play in. CCP are hoping to fix that somehow and I agree.. it needs fixing. Titans need fixing too now that everyone has 5 or 6 laying around.. but will it happen? Who knows.
And don't tell me "Just go fit some heavy neuts!". I've spent a LONG time trying to fight nano gangs (fleets really at this point) and there is VERY little you can do other than hold your own and call a stalemate (unless you have a Titan.. which you probably do haha). ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
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Tibberg
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:51:00 -
[161]
Dear CCP
Do you not think that the problem of nano gangs is only present because people are not prepared to take the means with which to fight fast cruisers, such as heavy neuts and ships with a web bonus, and that the only real problem is from the 10-15 km/s interceptors? And providing more means to combat fast ships AND nerfing the speed modules and rigs, while bringing things like interceptors down to an acceptable speed is effectivly putting fast skirmishing ships out of buisness?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:53:00 -
[162]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin
Originally by: Redklaw Edited by: Redklaw on 07/10/2008 01:48:52 So it's possible to get a Vagabond over 10Km/s if I spend billions on deadspace / faction equipment, T2 Rigs, and Full HG Snakes... At the cost of billions (notice its plural) of ISK worth of investment.
So here's the problem with that.. if you pop into 0.0 you will meet literally HUNDREDS of pilots flying that exact setup.
LOL just LOL.
Most nano vagas do around 7kms max most others nano hacs do 5ish kms max, very few fly the 10kms or faster fits and they are only used in specific fights due to the expense and the fact that they are really not that much better in gang fighting as both need to slow to hit anything and the non mwd speed is very simular.
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Zo5o
Gallente Longcat is Long
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:54:00 -
[163]
Blasters are at a disadvantage as a close-range weapon in TODAY'S eve. They do about 10% more dps than pulses or torps, but pulses have about 100% more range, torps about 600% more range.
The last time I saw the speed changes on SiSi, including the mwd-deactivating scrams, general mass increase of ships, and web nerf, the changes seemed to make blasterboats completely non-competitive in pvp, as it took 4 times longer to reach your target post-nerf, and cruisers could orbit fast enough to completely evade a blaster bs's tracking without an AB or MWD.
What changes, if any, to the previous speed changes have you made to ensure that blasterboats retain a viable and competitive niche in PVP?
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SomeHardLovin
The Nietzian Way Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 17:56:00 -
[164]
I should point out its not just the Vaga that is screwed up. The Ishtar is another ship that needs this nerf. It drops 5 drones and is instantly orbiting at 50km at 5000ms. Again you pretty much have no chance of killing that thing. Get a group of them and there isn't really anything to counter them with.. it will be a stalemate. ---
* The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:00:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Murina on 08/10/2008 18:01:48
Originally by: SomeHardLovin I should point out its not just the Vaga that is screwed up. The Ishtar is another ship that needs this nerf. It drops 5 drones and is instantly orbiting at 50km at 5000ms. Again you pretty much have no chance of killing that thing. Get a group of them and there isn't really anything to counter them with.. it will be a stalemate.
Tell your amaar pilots to jump in a few of their sniper BS and focus on the ishtars, if you have a few they will melt the orbiting ishy in seconds and if you time the volleys right he will have no chance to align and warp.
Simple answers to simple problems tbh, nano aint the problem lack of pvp knowledge is.
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Brayiel
The Double Cross
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:01:00 -
[166]
Originally by: SomeHardLovin I should point out its not just the Vaga that is screwed up. The Ishtar is another ship that needs this nerf. It drops 5 drones and is instantly orbiting at 50km at 5000ms. Again you pretty much have no chance of killing that thing. Get a group of them and there isn't really anything to counter them with.. it will be a stalemate.
Drones die quickly when you web/shoot them
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Moya81
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:06:00 -
[167]
To make a long story short, when are you going to consider making the Black Ops ships useful for anything apart being an expensive target? Would be nice if with the discussed speed-tweking you would consider giving the blackops some survivability such as speed AND the ability to warp while cloaked.
Off-topic suggestion:
1. Make random spacial phaenomenas that for a certain amount of time can disrupt warping out of a system; targeting; cloaking; capacitor power; communications (shutting down chat) etc etc in a system or region. This would shift tactical tactical situations and result in a more realistic feeling to the game and exploration and opportunities.
2. With the same concept as point 1, you have implemented the last expansion allowing faction warfare but have failed to give a real ambience of war. Factional warfare has become (unfortunately) a big blobbing with no sec penalty. You have correctly implemented NPC fleets in certain systems, but it would make the whole scenario alot more realistic if NPC fleets where to fight among each other, push forward into enemy systems allowing players to participate with clear objectives and possible rewards. This way you could "channel" into a certain path of low populated systems the masses of players participating, without further lagging out the systems already overpopulated.
3. Collisions ship-to-ship and ship-to-collidables with no damage whatsoever is very unrealitstic and also implies various problems with intentional bumping from docking range by neutral flagged alts, to the advantage of the main players character (exclusively a highsec problematic). Furthermore having so called shutlle blobbs dropped in such numbers as to render movement of a freighter completely impossible. Allow damage to occur when two object collide, the amount of damage distrubuted should be shared proportinally to the masses and speed of the colliding objects. This would mean that a nanoship "bumping" a carrier off a station to actually die from the collision, while the carrier taking a scratch at it's shields. It would also mean that pilots docking or undocking would have to fly their ships with more attention and skills. The overall realism would be improved.
4. Self-destruct mechanism are to be tweked, the amount of time necessary to self-destruct a ship should be proportinal to the ship size. The only benefit the current self-destruct option provides, is a way for a doomed ship to avoid giving a killmail and loot to his aggressors and as such it is very frequently abused creating frustration. The self-destruction should have a few advantages aswell as disadvantages. Allow self-destruction to do splash damage in the surrounding area, the amount of damage and range should be proportional to the size of the ship. The self-destruction sequence should be "quiet" and only the pilot who activates it should be given a timer warning. The self-destruction sequence should have a disadvantage of not allowing the pilot to survive if he doesn't eject before the countdown ends. Allow the countdown to continue even after the pilot ejects and only to be disarmable if another pilot boards the ship in time.
5. Allow modules to take damage and fail once the target starts taking structural damage. This would allow various options among them the possible advantage of having a new specialization (wich in my view should be the present one called: surgical strike) allowing a pilot to target certain primary modules categorized in: weapons; propolsion; power (targeting this shouls have a certain percentage of causing either an instand explosion or total ship deactivation). This would open a whole new range of options and strategies forcing pilots to think even more during stress situations. E.G succefully shutting down the power would eject the pilot in his pod...
These are the main ideas and tweaks I consider would greatly improve the quality and overall ambience to this game.
Best regards
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:12:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Murina on 08/10/2008 18:14:15
Gotta say i love the idea of variable str/range script webs.
It would solve a lot of the missile/tracking vs speed issue as at distance a weak web will slow a fast ship enough to be hit lightly and if it closes swap script and slow it more so you hit it harder. Along with the mwd killing scram and nuets that effect at the start of the cycle instead of the end i think a great phase in pvp would be here.
This solves a lot of problems, those caused by speed and those caused by nerfing speed.
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Elise Randolph
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:27:00 -
[169]
I guess my question is, why use a sledge hammer to do the job of a scalpel? Bring polycarbons inline with nanofibers and reduce the effect of overheating on MWDs and problem solved! Nothing else really needs to be done. If someone spends billions of isk on a ship setup that goes at blistering speeds, it's because they've spent billions of isk. If you throw money into things, you can get ships that severely outperform others.
You have the tools to combat nano ships in webs, e-war, and cap neutralizing. Just because people aren't smart enough to utilize these tools doesn't mean you need to change them.
Making Polycarbs something other than the end-all-be-all rig that is more powerful than any other rig in its class will be sufficient to combating this problem. Even toy with making nanofibers, overdrives, and i-stabs stack on one another (albeit not with a typical stacking penalty, maybe the effect of overdrives stacking is half as much when stacking against nanofibers, or something of the sort).
Readers Digest version: you don't need to completely overhaul the system when slight tweaks will be more than sufficient. The average nano pilot does not have t2 rigs and full snake sets with a max-skilled Claymore pilot in gang. Removing nano as a viable PVP option will severely shift the dynamic of small gang warfare. ----------
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IR Scoutar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:30:00 -
[170]
1: How long was the design/fleshing out process with the speed balancing and has anything at all changed with the speeds themselves from the original SiSi release ?
2: will the needed changes of at least missiles and drones be rolled out at the same time ?
3: What thought has been given to the rebalancing other things that seem required to be change with the slowing down of eve ? Such as Afterburners , Tracking of all class of guns , signature radius, inertia , etc.
3: Will this obviously large modification of "accepted" gameplay pave the way for other similarly big gameplay changing modifications ?
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Xybex
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:35:00 -
[171]
I believe that the speed issue is more about the interceptor and other frigs not being able to get the speed they are design for.. i think you should approch this as a constructivte fix rather than a destructive..
By adjusting a bonus cpu or power to the ship or ships that need it. To many people have time invested in their ships to have it robbed of the very skills they got the ship for...
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Aliyah Sheli
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:43:00 -
[172]
I have just one question... Why is the problem being addressed by penalizing all speed modules rather than creating a greater stacking penalty?
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:52:00 -
[173]
1. How will you address the Blaster/AC boat issues that the patch will bring.
2. How will you address the null survivability of most HACs after the nerf and why would someone want to use them over an insurable BC that can tank better and in some cases has more DPS as well.
3. How will you address ships like the Deimos/Thorax that feature an MWD bonus when the close rangeness of said ships will always bring them into scrambler range nullifying the bonus and the ship design altogether 99% of the time?
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muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:56:00 -
[174]
What I would ike to know ccp is with YET ANOTHER PATCH CHANGING THE ORIGINAL DESIGN...is what do you plan to do to reimburse me for the months upon month's i've dedicated to making ships like the sabre, vaga, and other ships go extremely fast. I fly a vagabond about 9km/s...ONLY AFTER 1 billion isk in implants...and even as is if duel webbed by a rapier im knocked down to below 200m/s while running my microwarp. This game doesn't require these changes. Especially seeeing as so many of us have put so much time into training our charactors based on the current game mechanics. The people whining/crying and saying we need these changes are the tards who put skills souly into armor and shield tanking expecting to be able to tank a 20+man fleet in 0.0. I designed my charactor around the ability to go fast, and catch other people who go fast.
Now from the sound of things..my charactors year worth of trianing is about to become redundant..basically going out and spending a billion on a set of snakes is now going to be a total waste of isk as compared to feeling superior because I trained cybernetics 5, i trained accelleration control 5, i trained navigation and spaceship command 5, and decided to back those skills up with about a weeks worth of pure isk making.
Another case of CCP being too worried about pleasing a bunch of whiney noobs who should play a different game rather than dedicating focus to this games real issues, which happen to be the evergrowing population and its effects on the server.
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Lord Shamino
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Posted - 2008.10.08 18:58:00 -
[175]
It is well known that Jita is overpopulated due to cheap sell/buy orders. What are you going to do to improve the trading system so buy and sell orders are spread throughout the galaxy equaly ? My topic / solution would be improved contracting of large scale courier missions.
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Mrappy
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:01:00 -
[176]
One thing I'm sure everyone agrees wouldbe cool would be if u could explore the staton your at.Like if u docked somewhere u could leave your ship and walk around the station and acutally go to a repair shop or agents office and if we could walk around station it would be more realistic.Another thing i think repairs should actually take a hour or two.
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Zenst
Gallente Omniscient Order Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:10:00 -
[177]
I have an easy fix for this which solves the problem withought totally killing what it solves.
Introduce WEBBY BUBBLES for dictors and HIC's
Simple, effective, add's to the games dynamics and overall a fairer fix to a problem thats a fix to another problem that isn't being addressed.
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Antgunner
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:10:00 -
[178]
I think the game is balanced fine, it was balanced fine when I first started 1.5 years ago. CCP needs to stop nerfing stuff, in the real world nothing is as balanced as stuff is in this game. Ships all need to have their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. Every patch is leading us to an eve with more and more similar ships. Or to rephrase that every ship is becoming the same. CCP could save them selves a lot of work by eliminating all race ships and giving us 1 ship for each ship class, thatÆs 1 frig 1 cruiser 1 battle cruiser and 1 battleship, everything would be equally balanced then. And does anyone want that? NO! but that is where all the patch nerfs are taking us. And if battleships are having issues hitting a nano frigate then they should have a web fitted. Im sure someone will say what if the frig is over 10kms? That would be an issue, but every ship has to be vulnerable to something, thatÆs what the ships in eve are all about. So people are complaining about the tracking on battle ships, rather then nerf lets give the tracking script a little boost or just give all battle ships a small tracking bonus. Also shouldnÆt the range of a scram and a web be proportionate to the size of the ship? I would think so, larger ship, more power behind a battleship, a 20km web would do wonders in this case. And as for everyone crying about nanoed frigates and hacs, they are balanced too, with great speed comes great tracking problems, range problems and most of the time a nanoed ship has little to no tank making them quite vulnerable. Ive watched nano HACS pop like shuttles many times and IÆve even seen a raven pop a vagabond, how did he do it? He had a web, a lethal weapon against a nanoed ship. As stated before, I think our game is balanced enough, if CCP wants to make the game better: update the servers so it quits lagging every time 60 people want to have a fight, Bring more content to the game, how about more ships? There is a huge gap between battleships and capitals a small drone carrier might be nice, Introduce another playable race, how about a mod that takes a large high slot and turns it into 2 med high slots- Or the other way around. There are lots of interesting things that can be done to make the game more interesting and fun, nerfing is the last thing that should be done.
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Cabablanka
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:15:00 -
[179]
if you change anything, u kill all pvp.
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Kiithnaras
Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:15:00 -
[180]
On the whole, I have to agree with the general proposal as far as altering ship statistics. Battleships need to slow the F down, bombers and other small and mid-range ships need a hand up, but the ships that hit in excess of Warrior II's speeds should be hard, if not impossible to come by. I even agree with the Speed Goals.
Specifically, however: the proposed changes to Microwarps are sound if and only if the changes to Webs are tied to them, and vice versa. De-microwarping an interceptor and webbing to 90% is just insane, it's basically dead at that point. Having mwd's not affected by warp disruption (Only Scramblers, or Disruptors, Probes, Bubbles, and Fields, too?) and only webbing to 50% is useless.
Changes to Polycarbs make sense, they do have a very large bonus. T1 should be between T1 and T2 nanos, and T2 should be a little more than T2 nano. Nanofibers themselves aren't necessarily a bad thing, but perhaps they should split up their bonuses? A slight speed bonus, a slight agility bonus, and a reduced mass reduction? That way they stack with overdrives and inertial stabs, but not completely.
X-instinct should not change. The bonuses are present, but every booster has an inherent drawback. You take a booster, there's a good chance you're going to suffer, and suffer severely. The better boosters, the better the chance. If you change the bonus to a signature radius bonus, X will not sell as Sooth does not sell. No one wants to risk a loss of combat effectiveness for such a trivial bonus. By the way, the only way to get people to use Sooth is to effectively double the Falloff bonuses. Most falloff ranges are tiny as it is, and no one wants to use Sooth because of it. Why use Sooth when you can use Frentix? Furthermore, falloff is decaying accuracy where optimal is full accuracy. It should stand to reason that a balanced booster for falloff would provide a larger bonus than one for optimal, right?
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Doktor Feeelgoood
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:15:00 -
[181]
My corp mate has noticed that his racial jammers are alllllll messed up. Instead of having a jam strength of like 11, they are jamming at like three. Comments?
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Adam C
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:15:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Adam C on 08/10/2008 19:15:46
Question; Will a Polycarb nerf solve the speed issue alone?
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Ferenc Puskas
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:17:00 -
[183]
In relation to the nano nerf making Slave set useless will there be more pirate or empire set of implants to boost stats on ships for a moderate price?
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arbiter reformed
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:18:00 -
[184]
as for missile changes that are dirctly related to the speed nerf due to balancing issues, how do you forsee this to change the feel of pvp from a missile users perspective and from the perspective of ships that will still speed tank. also are there any planned boosts to any ship atm, ishtar may need some help to fit more tank as will curses huggins etc Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
Crimson Royals
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:20:00 -
[185]
is the orca going to be coming out in the winter industrial expansion and can you give us any of its stats.
would it be possible to make a folder in people and places places tab whos bookmarks will show up in the overview for quicker access. a lot of time right click links to bookmarks are blocked bye other objects and planets in the view window
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xXDarkestLordXx
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:22:00 -
[186]
A megathron fitted with a afterburner just doesnt sound as scary. Guess i wont have to worry about getting primaried anymore thats one good thing. As for nano fits i really dont see it as a problem. Yes it does sink getting caught by a nano gang but it still has its place in eve. So... should i go ahead and sell all my blaster boats and fittings before there worthless and start training for a raven?
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:22:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 08/10/2008 19:23:02
Some questions from the top of my head:
- Have you (the devs) ever considered scripted stasis webifiers?
- Will you try to preserve diversity as far as possible (i.e. speed tanks & viability of all weappon systems)?
- Have you considered re-balancing only or mainly the 'straw to break the camel's back' factors like implants, warlinks and polycarbons?
- Will you try to preserve the option to speed tank for players with a moderate wallet?
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:30:00 -
[188]
Nerf polys. Nerf snakes. Make small adjustments to the speed of ships in their respective size class. Take it from there and see what happens. Take it slowly.
Anything more than that and you risk seriously messing up this game.
Originally by: Kiay Stryx
Your an idiot.
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heretic06
Minmatar Forsaken Death Squad Angels of Immortal Blood
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:33:00 -
[189]
hey, ccp, can i just ask, why are you nano nerfing something that is so usefull, if you think about it, a small alliance that needs to grow would be able to clear out enemys with a nano fleet, to nerf the nano fleets is like taking all the guns away from ******, it isn't realistic, you can't win a war by removing something, instead, people need to think how they could combat against nano fleet, eg. a falcon fleet would stop them doing anything, also, look at the cost of a nano fleet, it's like 3 billion isk per character (implants and ships and rigs etc) a reasonable falcon will only cost arround 150 million isk - 200 mill isk, look at the isk difference, nano is expensive, but you get what you want for your money, you officer fit a falcon it could probably be just as leathal, all i want to ask, what is your evidence that the nano needs to be nerfed... nullnullThis is the way the world ends! |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:37:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Cabablanka if you change anything, u kill all pvp eve will DIE!!!111.
Fixed that for you! ...
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morefeeus
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:38:00 -
[191]
How about a mechanisum for tidying up Freighter cans! Either allow for them to be picked up or delete them during DT.
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Koikarmin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:40:00 -
[192]
How about waiting to hear what is actualy going to happen, when Nozh and Fendahl come online then we can ask the right questions.
I vote not to nerf, but definately to balance the speed out a bit more, and also to make all ships a bit faster, the gameplay is a bit too slov in my opinion.
JUDGE |
Chienka
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:40:00 -
[193]
Question:
- With regard to battleships, particularly the ones that do not go fast (Amarr, Caldari), would we ever see a speed nerf? With the previously proposed changes, some of these battleships (like the abaddon for instance) would be quite literally going nowhereÖ, due to the fact that they are normally fitted with speed lowering modules as standard.
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Sola Sun
Jita Trade Services
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Posted - 2008.10.08 19:45:00 -
[194]
Will you consider just hard-capping maxium speed for given ship hull type, leaving all the rest modules the same?
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE. United Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:03:00 -
[195]
X2 the Threat is quality space game
removing warp drive may enhance PvP on the whole
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S1r Minealot
Shade.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:03:00 -
[196]
after all what has been said about this topic allrdy i cant imagine some ppl are still thinking of nerfing speed. I've been moslty flying nano (without snakes) all my pvp career and found enough gangs that could counter us easily. Imho speed is fine like it is now, and for those people that are going amazingly fast there's mostly a huge isksink involved so i rly dont see the problem. We had nano pilots in our space also which took us ages to catch and kill because of there ludicrous speeds but still we did so and made sure they got podded at the end. We havent seen them return very fast then. So please stop this noncence yo uare taking the fun away for a lot of people.
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quickshot89
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:03:00 -
[197]
i have a question,
eve supports the xbox 360 live headset for audio input only, not output, any ideas if there is a way to fix?
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:03:00 -
[198]
Speed has gotten out of hand when a fast cruiser can take NO damage form any cruiser based weapons.. One v one is the lowest possible "multiplayer' in eve, and you currently cannot fight a nano hac with any other hac if its not nanoed and "kill" the oposing nanohac.. Cruiser sized neuts and webs CANNOT be used because of the extended range of orbits now due to overheating and t2 disruprors.. they put a nano safely out of harms way to ANYthing a non nano SHOULD be able to counter the nano with.
Keep in mind, if nanos had to orbit you at a range in which a t2 web or a CRUISER sized neut could reach (even if just when overheated), no nerf would be needed.
Make neuts and webs have scripts and a skill tree that makes training them more involves... range, web/neut amount, make sig raduis matter, and trainable to counter...
you should just hire me, i have all the right answers :)
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Dray
Caldari The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:04:00 -
[199]
Why so many changes, small reduction in snake bonus, stack all speed mods, sounds a lot better to me?
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BogWopit
Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:04:00 -
[200]
Nerfs aside, heres an idea for a new ship type.
Drones only, one of each class (frig, cruiser, bc, battleship) and having them get the same bonus as carrier, +1 drone per level. some of us are drone *****s and prefer them to turrets and bays :)
B.
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Anshin Wataru
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:05:00 -
[201]
Please turn the volumn UP! Having a hard time understanding him!!! |
Crudamus
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:05:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Crudamus on 08/10/2008 20:05:27 My question is at the end after I put a thought on the idea.
The thing about speed is that it comes with a price tag. There is no simple skill train to poses that makes you "invulnerable" and the same there is no simple isk value set to make you "invulnerable".
It's like all the other great ships, titans, motherships. They all take mass amount of skills and isk, maybe on a lower level but it is the same thing.
My question to the live dev blog is.
If people are willing to spend ludicrous amounts of isk and skill time, is that fair to nerf there skill set and isk items for a player that dose not invest this to have a GOOD chance at being on there level when clearly they are not?
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Korbann
Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:05:00 -
[203]
Volume extremely low, I cant hear much.
I'm having to max out my volumes and I know something is going to blare hardcore and blow out my headset :/
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thelung187
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:05:00 -
[204]
Edited by: thelung187 on 08/10/2008 20:05:29 Can the person who is speaking currently (first person after Mindstar's introduction) crank his microphone a bit? Quite low tbh
edit: Thx Mindstar, you south african pimp!
[ 2005.05.19 22:54:23 ] InnerDrive > only solution safespot till you leave or mine in empire till you leave or s |
Tyen
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:24:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Tyen on 08/10/2008 20:24:33 Perhaps I'm understanding this wrong, but it sounds like you're simply trading Microwarps as a necessity to Afterburners. Can you be more specific on how both are still viable choices and not just changing places?
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:25:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Viqer Fell Why not simply give each Ship Hull a max speed and that if it travels above that speed then it takes heat damage to all modules as if you were overheating them. This means that you can still use ludicrous speed but only in very small bursts and mostly you can just go sensibly fast
great idea... would stop them from NOT taking any damage at least..
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Sasha Starfire
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:25:00 -
[207]
question: are you planning on making autopilot easier on the players? shorten the gate between gates? from default 14km to maybe say 0 - 10?
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WaTT0
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:25:00 -
[208]
As i recall there was a Speed nerf some time ago, that targeted BS ships doing insane speeds (eg. nanophoon). and as i recall the majority of people were satisfied with the results of this patch (nanophoon pilots excepted).
So after this patch was applied, why did we add extra things to the game that increased speeds again?
Seriously the last speed patch was good, why not just nerf the new stuff added to the game that screwed it up?
And don't let this happen again. Don't add new features to the game without seriously considering the impact on pervious nerfs.
And take a good look at this and other threads. How many people are actually supporting the changes and how many people are unhappy? i don't see a lot of people who are activly supporting the changes so why exactly are these changes being implemented? We are the paying customers, so if the majority of people are happy with the game as it stands, why change it?
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Krem daBrut
Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:26:00 -
[209]
Will target painter become in future some kind of useful ?
|
Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:26:00 -
[210]
Someone tell the dev that before ludicrous speed there werent bridges and titans eveywhere. Trying doing guerilla warfare in 1k m/s hacs under those conditions...
- Gob
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F90OEX
F9X
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:27:00 -
[211]
Webs.
Regarding Max Velocity Bonus it will be changed or not and if so will it be the same as it was on SISI from T2/fleeting webs from 90% to 75%
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Dray
Caldari The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:27:00 -
[212]
How does he expect guerilla warfare to remain? how will we counter the blob beyond black ops being fixed?
|
CowsCANBark
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:27:00 -
[213]
assault frigates are stupid.
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Tylor Smith
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:28:00 -
[214]
CCP please PLEASE remember that not every one has billions of isk to spend on black ops ships. So using black ops ships to save guerrilla warfare is not a viable solution. |
Car Wars
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:28:00 -
[215]
BLASTERS please comment on speed nerf effects
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Crudamus
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:28:00 -
[216]
With the rogues and omega being the same impl slot. What about the skermish impl?
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Random5154
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:29:00 -
[217]
Was this even a serious devblog? Did they even mention the impact to Minmatar? And "small gang warfare won't die because I think so?" Seriously, that's your answer to the changes without providing detail?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:29:00 -
[218]
How do the small ships get close if speed is nerfed ffs they will melt on the way in.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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Dray
Caldari The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:29:00 -
[219]
Assault frigs...... hahhahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahhaahhahahahahhhaha
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Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:29:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Random5154 Was this even a serious devblog? Did they even mention the impact to Minmatar? And "small gang warfare won't die because I think so?" Seriously, that's your answer to the changes without providing detail?
LOL
/SIGNED.
|
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Supreme Feather
Indigo Rising
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:30:00 -
[221]
so.. didn't we know all that crap already? what's the news CCP? LOl :S let down ftw.. Signature: WTB: T2 Minmatar/Gallente drone BPO's. Most wanted atm: warrior II bpo. |
CowsCANBark
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:30:00 -
[222]
This was an hour long devblog that lasted 30 minutes. Why did you cut it so short?
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Xeax
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:30:00 -
[223]
So basicaly say it's a nano nerf, just change a few of the game generics and let them still blob in small ships.
A lot of hard work there.
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Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:30:00 -
[224]
The Retribution will need a second mid slot, kthxbai!
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:31:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Car Wars
BLASTERS please comment on speed nerf effects
Web nerf + everybody whith AB = Blaster going to miss ANYTHING. MWD nerf = Taking age to go at range.
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
Kwa Kaine
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:31:00 -
[226]
To put it simply that dev blog was pathetic. EVE Online Customer Support <- It would be nice if this actually existed.
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:31:00 -
[227]
Was that it? wth :(
- Gob
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Car Wars
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:33:00 -
[228]
it is the people spamming the chat channel now that have asked for the speed nerf.
as you can clearly see they are ******ed....
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Isil Rahsen
Gallente IsilZheHa Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:34:00 -
[229]
I love how they avoided the subject of blasters entirely. Guess us blaster users just get ****ed by the current speed changes. Lets take away your ability to even get into range and then if by some miracle you do get into range, you can hit shit not even another battleship ffs. Guess it went like this "Oh look webs needs teh nerfz cause assault frigates sux!". Way to gimp an entire weapon class into complete uselessness and not eve bother to comment on it at all.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:34:00 -
[230]
That was it?.... er hello Blasters troubles post speed changes?? --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
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BFish
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:34:00 -
[231]
Edited by: BFish on 08/10/2008 20:35:00 Pathetic dev blog is pathetic.
I don't know what I disliked more, the idiots who spammed after the dev blog, or the failness.
And notice how the only questions asked were those on pages 1 and 2. I mean come on.
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:39:00 -
[232]
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: BFish Edited by: BFish on 08/10/2008 20:35:00 Pathetic dev blog is pathetic.
I don't know what I disliked more, the idiots who spammed after the dev blog, or the failness.
And notice how the only questions asked were those on pages 1 and 2. I mean come on.
Ahaha no. You are just going to see more "nano" AF and inty and less nano cruiser, that all.
An hour long session cut in half well.... sucked.. but on the bright side... NANNOS ARE GONE SOON!! yeeeaaa!!
...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:39:00 -
[233]
This blog was an embarassment, Fendahl and Nozh ought to be ashamed.
There were dozens of important issues unadressed (e.g. blasters, huginns) and mostly just a big re-iteration of the 2-month old dev blog. Why not announce some actual CHANGES to the original version? Why not take into account some of the feedback? _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:39:00 -
[234]
Originally by: ice***** There will be a day when EVE will not be EVE anymore and all we will be left with is a pile of p**. A completely unrecognisable game. CCP please stop messing with things. I'm sick of going in one direction only to have the rug pulled from under my feet. You don't always know what's best and people will eventually cease to follow you on your non-sensical path.
That sir, is the problem with being a one trick pony.. nanno guys tended to only train, well... nano stuff.. I SO cant wait to kill ex nanos, tears... MORE tears please!
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Thorn Kross
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:40:00 -
[235]
howdy, real simple,nerf polycarbs, nerf highend speed implants,increase stacking penalties of speed modules.Minmitar ships as a whole will directly be affected from speed nerf,and lets be honest the only thing that tricked people into flying them was speed + agility + challenge. Hope that helps, If not i'll take my 4 accounts and go play warhammer, good luck.
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Solcypher
The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:40:00 -
[236]
may the best blob win
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:41:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Thorn Kross howdy, real simple,nerf polycarbs, nerf highend speed implants,increase stacking penalties of speed modules.Minmitar ships as a whole will directly be affected from speed nerf,and lets be honest the only thing that tricked people into flying them was speed + agility + challenge. Hope that helps, If not i'll take my 4 accounts and go play warhammer, good luck.
can i have your stuff?
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:41:00 -
[238]
For starters... i am totally against these ridiculous nanno changes your making. THERE DOESNT NEED TO BE A NERF!! BLOBS ARE ALREADY TOO HARD TO COUNTER!
but... as it seems you've already made up your minds and changing it regardless of the outcry why go over the top like this.
I'm sorry but even with web stacking penalties gone if you propose to make webbers 50% then even 2 on a target will leave enough speen + inertia for a lot of targets to simply reapproach gates and jump out.
Also as to saying webber falloff ranges would cause too much lag there was a suggestion of scripting them to defined range which would stop this.
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Elis Verone
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:43:00 -
[239]
will we ever see some decent roles for super caps. atm when your in a super cap your there for life!! so a few more roles would be nice..
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Killer Rasta
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:45:00 -
[240]
u CCP and Dev sucks great time. What the sht whas this,no real subjects and no real answers. That was crap.all that dev live stuff,crap,crap,crap,sharade,usless. That was trowing dust in ayes of ppl who r paying this game.U did give not any answer,any usefull informaton,and as publict comunicator u suck,even a 3 years old kid can give more information than that franch guy. My god.
Get us real inteligent answers and inuff of that crap u r doing.And u r still in time to quit this nerf cose u r nerfing thing all over,and resaults sucks big time.
What u mean to acomplish whith this is that we all shoud just fly ravens and fire crapi misils.....
OMG
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BFish
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:47:00 -
[241]
So, Gallente and Minmatar are going to lose faction warfare.
[sarcasm]Great[/sarcasm]
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ArmyOfMe
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:48:00 -
[242]
great dev blog guys. im actually quite impressed how you only managed to have the nice easy questions posted here and avoiding all major issues this nerf raises
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
Azura Skye
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:49:00 -
[243]
*looks around*
A lot of constructive Ideas here. Obviously there has got to be some place in the game for speed tanking and hit-n-run style warfare, but the fact that a cruiser can achieve speeds of over 5K/S is simply game breaking. The idea to hard code top speeds in makes sense, but it removes the open ended feeling we all enjoy in this game. The idea to have speed affect hull or armor is nifty, but simply put, overcomplicated. It seems like a simple fix to me. Simply adjust the stacking penalty for speed related mods. Have it take into account the mass of a ship (so things like plates, ship class) are still important. Just make the bell curve for speed mods steeper. This, in addition to the changes already proposed to Nanos and MWD's should balance out nicely. This solution seems to tick everyone off equally, no?
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Antgunner
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:50:00 -
[244]
CCP always has to screw things up! why? whats the point? Why change the entire pvp mechanics when it wasn't broke to begin with? Listen to your subscribers that are paying $15 a month to play this game that gets sillier by the patch. if disabling a MWD is a must, why not create a new mid slot mod to do just that, and let the player decide what he wants, not make a combo item that scrams and kills the mwd. And why nerf the web? The web is about the only reason people die in 0.0 otherwise they just run back to the gate.
and what a ridiculous developers blog that was. like listening to a soap opera USELESS!
Do something productive instead of counter productive
I'm disgusted
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Xeax
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:52:00 -
[245]
The way it stands from that convo is that webs will be getting a nerf. Why not just base the duration webs slow down ships on thier mass.
Big ships take a long time to slow down with webs. Firgate size ships slow down almost instantaniously.
You can still keep thier nerf of how much they are slowed down by, but boost the time it takes them to slow down and keep the heavier ships with a fighting chance to carry on moving. This way your mass based speed change still works, afterburners still work, everything in your nano nerf ideas still work except that webs won't be nerfed.
If the patch stays the way it has been stated goodbye hugins.
It needs to go back to the way it was when battleships could beat the crap out of little ships, instead of a small group of frigates killing battleships.
CCP need to stop worrying about upsetting the nano blobs and make EVE the way it should be with Big ships reigning supreme.
|
ishkabibble
Aztec Industry
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:54:00 -
[246]
You can really see ITT who is pro-nano's and who is anti-nano's. You should all just stfu and adapt, one trick horse doesnt last forever.
Cant wait for the day i kill my first vaga with an AB on it, ohh the joy Always remember that it's never your fault when you lose.Ö |
Fistme
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:55:00 -
[247]
Why does patch after patch just promote blob warfare...
I'm disgusted...
|
S1r Minealot
Shade.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:56:00 -
[248]
i hope a lot of people think like me when this goes through just stop playing this game.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:57:00 -
[249]
I get the feeling that the questions asked were so carefully chosen. They didn't even address the real issues of Blasters/ACs/MWD bonus ships/close range combat. They just asked generic stuff. And on top of that some of the answers were really sad:
Quote:
Black ops fuel bay will counteract the loss of mobility in guerilla style small get-in get out gangs.
Right...
|
Fistme
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:57:00 -
[250]
Originally by: S1r Minealot i hope a lot of people think like me when this goes through just stop playing this game.
I'll tell ya, Warhammer Online is looking a whole lot better all of a sudden
|
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Eivy
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 20:58:00 -
[251]
My only concern in regard to balence is the lack of choice in freighter class ships. I would very much love to see this expanded. I use a Charon but I never need the maxium amount of space in the cargohold. Perhaps a Freighter Ship with smaller cargo space but bigger engines for greater speed would fit well in eve.
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:00:00 -
[252]
Interesting blog - if a bit on the short side.
Testing the changes when they were on SISI and I was quite encouraged. The changes are noticeable, but once you adapt to them the mwd/scram/web changes do make combat a more tactical affair - surprisingly I didn't find classic 'nano ships' to be that worse off, with the exception of missile damage.
IMO there's going to be a lot of 'over-hype' about how the changes could be 'game breaking' but that wasn't my experience.
C.
Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:02:00 -
[253]
Originally by: S1r Minealot i hope a lot of people think like me when this goes through just stop playing this game.
can i have your stuff?
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Face dePhasme
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:02:00 -
[254]
Originally by: S1r Minealot i hope a lot of people think like me when this goes through just stop playing this game.
Your stuff? Can I have?
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Reptzo
Channel 4 News Team
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:02:00 -
[255]
Does anyone have a quick summation of what was said in the blog??? Simply what was said, no opinions.
|
JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:04:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Reptzo Does anyone have a quick summation of what was said in the blog??? Simply what was said, no opinions.
Intys will still be fast, and the vaga.. but get ready to ACTUALLY commit to a fight.. running away isnt going to be the norm anymore.basically
|
sus antler
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:05:00 -
[257]
wel i donno how to reply to a topic this size im playing eve for a bout 1 and a halfyear and was liking the minmatar race over the others as its like the eve hard modus ( unlike those lasy caldari missile spammers) yes it has dual weapon systems yes we can tank armor shields or on speed and yea im not rich enough to go buy a super duper expensive faction setup with snakes and all but i fear ive been training hac for ......g nothing if this is goin through wich is realy a shame vagabond isnt realy a high dps machine and it only has its speed to rely on to survive, sensor strenght even a turd ina can has more sensor strenght, capacitor pftt a low voltage battery has more power in it. i feel like a sad pandaif this is ccp's way of making thing beter. i might end up selfdestructing it or sell it for scrapmetal. p.s i dont do gtc's or watever im paying for the game cause i loved it but i feel like im beeing ripped off atm spending time training for stuff that gets nerfed anyways fly safe cya around
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Koikarmin
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:05:00 -
[258]
if CCP nerf the ships then they would have to extend the completion time of missions too, otherwhise we will all loose alot of good LP, and bonus, or maybe that is the whole point. JUDGE |
JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:12:00 -
[259]
Originally by: S1r Minealot
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: S1r Minealot i hope a lot of people think like me when this goes through just stop playing this game.
can i have your stuff?
i'm not giving you my stuff as you fit a cloak, plate and OD on an ishtar... ROFL !!!!
When hunting a russian plex farmer in deadspace you have to get creative with setups.. dont hate the man cause of a situational setup...
|
big juggs
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:14:00 -
[260]
if you cant catch a vagga , GET A BETTER WEBB
|
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Deej Montana
Caldari Outbound Flight
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:15:00 -
[261]
That was a serious waste of my time. There was no new info presented and, as was pointed out by many other posters, several VERY important issues weren't addressed, e.g. short range turrets and Minmatar ships.
You have a lot of anxious players here CCP. Actually giving us some answers would go a long way towards calming those anxieties and planning for how to cope with the coming changes. As a side benefit it would help with some of the forum angst. |
Jimmycs83
Gallente The Angry Mob
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:16:00 -
[262]
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: Reptzo Does anyone have a quick summation of what was said in the blog??? Simply what was said, no opinions.
Intys will still be fast, and the vaga.. but get ready to ACTUALLY commit to a fight.. running away isnt going to be the norm anymore.basically
No, people who were crap at pvp before and whined for this change will still be crap at pvp after and those that are decent will continue to use tactics that give them the ability to disengage when they need. All that will change is that combat becomes more static (less roaming gangs) and generally more boring.
Also i may have missed it but no comments on the effects this will have on blasters? And what about large bubbles maybe being reduced in size to compensate for a decrease in speeds?.
|
Waxau
Mortis Angelus The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:17:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Deej Montana That was a serious waste of my time. There was no new info presented and, as was pointed out by many other posters, several VERY important issues weren't addressed, e.g. short range turrets and Minmatar ships.
You have a lot of anxious players here CCP. Actually giving us some answers would go a long way towards calming those anxieties and planning for how to cope with the coming changes. As a side benefit it would help with some of the forum angst.
Agree with this. However, im up for the nanonerf. It'll be a boost to piracy in some aspects, as currently, we're currently plagued by nanos. You cant field huggins or nanos on empire gates, and as such, we have no real counter.
Bring on the nerf, but CCP - You did fall down tonight. Get back up, and get to work on ze nerf :D
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S1r Minealot
Shade.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:17:00 -
[264]
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: S1r Minealot
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: S1r Minealot i hope a lot of people think like me when this goes through just stop playing this game.
can i have your stuff?
i'm not giving you my stuff as you fit a cloak, plate and OD on an ishtar... ROFL !!!!
i wouldnt if i didnt see your sleipnir fits in orvolle.
anyway back to where we come from you wanted my stuff, come get it.
When hunting a russian plex farmer in deadspace you have to get creative with setups.. dont hate the man cause of a situational setup...
|
x psy
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:18:00 -
[265]
Good lord, we really need that ambulation expansion. There's so much testosterone in here!
|
S1r Minealot
Shade.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:19:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Deej Montana That was a serious waste of my time. There was no new info presented and, as was pointed out by many other posters, several VERY important issues weren't addressed, e.g. short range turrets and Minmatar ships.
You have a lot of anxious players here CCP. Actually giving us some answers would go a long way towards calming those anxieties and planning for how to cope with the coming changes. As a side benefit it would help with some of the forum angst.
Agree with this. However, im up for the nanonerf. It'll be a boost to piracy in some aspects, as currently, we're currently plagued by nanos. You cant field huggins or nanos on empire gates, and as such, we have no real counter.
Bring on the nerf, but CCP - You did fall down tonight. Get back up, and get to work on ze nerf :D
indeed pirates will get a very nice buff, not to mention the empire war deccers. I'll guess they nerf that one after that.
I thought this whole nano nerf was adressed to help out the empire carebears, where's the idea to get more people to 0.0 or am i missing a point?
|
Shin'Tor Varikior
Minmatar Tactical Information Tribunal
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:23:00 -
[267]
Will there be a transcript made available?
|
Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:25:00 -
[268]
Is there a recording available yet? ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) Pirate Coalition (Yar?) |
Jason Edwards
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:30:00 -
[269]
Well I always have my audio turned off and never need eve voice. The only other time I've tried to use eve-voice is back when eve-voice on sisi was just enabled on all accounts... and they got some fight together on sisi. Which didnt work. The bughunters also said they didnt have it neither.
I apparently still dont have eve-voice. I guess I'll wait for someone to post a capture of it. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:35:00 -
[270]
At least now they can't pretend the CSM experiment was anything but smoke up our ass when 2:1 vote against a nanonerf with a big turnout and it's back anyway.
|
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Angelic Eviaran
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:47:00 -
[271]
I feel there is alot of anger here. so I'll just ask. Can I have all your stuffz?
|
Shin'Tor Varikior
Minmatar Tactical Information Tribunal
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:47:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran I feel there is alot of anger here. so I'll just ask. Can I have all your stuffz?
I'll do Rock, Paper, Scissors with you for it.
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S1r Minealot
Shade.
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:50:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Shin'Tor Varikior
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran I feel there is alot of anger here. so I'll just ask. Can I have all your stuffz?
I'll do Rock, Paper, Scissors with you for it.
touchT ! nn guys
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Semkhet
The Priory
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:57:00 -
[274]
LOL at balancing. This game has so many aspects that are incoherent that if you would genuinely rebalance it you could as well start a rewrite from scratch.
All what a nanonerf will achieve is to render more static and boring a game where you must already wander during 20 jumps around to have the chance to engage a target after breaking through the usual gate blobs. Works for the peeps without a life who can spend half day online, or for those whose tactical excellence stops at remaining glued at a gate like flies on poo, but not for folks which set standards a tad higher and don't use their little valuable free time to log into a paid game just to get bored.
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Dwindlehop
Uninvited Guests
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 21:58:00 -
[275]
Which ships may need more tweaking than just a speed/agility/mass change? I am thinking specifically of Assault Frigates, but if there are others on the list, such as Minmatar Recons, or if AFs aren't on the list, please let us know. What are the design goals for the speed and agility balance between racial battleships? Are there any plans to change range of EW, missiles, or turrets as a result of the speed reduction?
It would be great if a dev could address these issues in a future blog.
|
InSession
Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 22:20:00 -
[276]
CCP,
I left the live Dev Blog early because I didn't find it interesting and most of the material seemed repetitive. I am a frequent nano-user, but at the same time I have an alt who rats in a Raven and I have run into nano's before.
People talk about insane speeds that can't be countered. Not everyone is rolling around in HG Snake clones, with faction/complex/officer mods. Those that are are putting A LOT of ISK on the line and that is the balance already in place with use of such modules (loss of ISK if caught). Nano's are countered already with Rapiers and Huggins. The problem is people don't know how to field them correctly. I don't see how a few BS with RR + a few Rapier/Huggin or even a few interceptors with webs can't immobilize the nano ships log enough for the BS's to destroy the nano's within a few volleys. Once webbed a nano ship is paper thin, the problem is people fail to utilize the tools that we already have at our disposal to catch nano pilots.
There are two scenarios that I run into frequently when it comes to nano ships.
#1 - Raven tackled by a solo nano ship in a belt (Usually me being the nano)
1) People complain the Ishtar is just a drop drones, orbit and fall asleep pwn mobile. Well Raven pilots, you have two free high-slots to play with on your ship so use them. Most Raven pilots I have run into put a cloak on so lets say they have just one high-slot. Simple fix, fit a large energy neutralizer. An Ishtar can carry a maximum of 9 cap booster 800s iirc. So simply neut the Ishtar, and shoot his drones and most of the time the Ishtar will leave you alone. I can tell you right now as an Ishtar pilot who solo's frequently that when I get neuted and a Raven stars pounding at my poor Ogre's I usually bug off unless the said Raven is melting.
2) For other nano ships especially the Vaga which rarely fits a cap booster to it, one volley of energy neuting will immobilize a Vaga, forcing it to run away. For the other ships the solution is the same...heavy energy neut. Problem solved. Be smart about combat. PvP isn't the mind numbing easy shenanigans that PvE is.
#2
1) The second scenario that I run into is fighting nano ships with nano ships. How do we counter this? Rapier...yes mmmm a Rapier. A Rapier coupled with two nano-scimmatars does the trick. That Rapier won't die because it can nano and get its shield repped by two scimmatars. Those scimmies will be kept alive by each other and the fact that they can nano as well, and that enemy nano-gang will most likely go die or be forced to run.
-----------------------
So there you go, two scenarios, and some solutions to go with them in regard to nano's. People just need to start using what we already have at hand to fight. It's completely a pilots responsibility to either defeat a nano because he/she has superior knowledge of the game/tactics, or fail because they lack the above. Everything we need to counter nano ships is already in the game...use it.
I really am going to be displeased if a speed patch goes through forcing small corporations like my own to recruit noob pilots just so we can form a bigger blob than corporation B who is camping the gate. Don't leave us in the dust please CCP.
Thanks for reading.
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Virgo I'Platonicus
Ex Eventus Corpi
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:31:00 -
[277]
Will there be a published version on what transpired in the live dev blog?
br, V.
<3 |
FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:36:00 -
[278]
I'm sorry but the proposed changes are ridiculous. For once listen to the vast majority of the eve player base (ya know the people who pay to play). How for example is a megathron going to catch anything when its MWD has turned off at 7.5km and it's optimal range is 5.5km? I'm a Caldari pilot and I know that the way to kill a mega is to pop it before it gets there not to just enable EVERYONE to be able to run away from them.
I fly in small gang warfare and its great but dying because of previous changes its dying already as people are pushed into mass blob warfare. So make everyone able to escape everyone else in the game and we'll all just mine 24/7 and mission cause that will be the most exciting thing we can do.
I'm with the guy who asked the question "Why am I paying you to ignore me?"
If you push these changes thru the game will die.
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Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:41:00 -
[279]
Originally by: InSession
#1 - Raven tackled by a solo nano ship in a belt (Usually me being the nano)
1) People complain the Ishtar is just a drop drones, orbit and fall asleep pwn mobile. Well Raven pilots, you have two free high-slots to play with on your ship so use them. Most Raven pilots I have run into put a cloak on so lets say they have just one high-slot. Simple fix, fit a large energy neutralizer. An Ishtar can carry a maximum of 9 cap booster 800s iirc. So simply neut the Ishtar, and shoot his drones and most of the time the Ishtar will leave you alone. I can tell you right now as an Ishtar pilot who solo's frequently that when I get neuted and a Raven stars pounding at my poor Ogre's I usually bug off unless the said Raven is melting.
This is the issue they are trying to address.. Most of the time the nano is at zero risk. Worst case they simply disengage. No ship should be able to disengage at will like this.
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Srg HappyPants
Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:46:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
Originally by: InSession
This is the issue they are trying to address.. Most of the time the nano is at zero risk. Worst case they simply disengage. No ship should be able to disengage at will like this.
Whats the difference whether we disengage at will or you carebears hug station and dock at will when being attacked? |
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:48:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder This is the issue they are trying to address.. Most of the time the nano is at zero risk. Worst case they simply disengage. No ship should be able to disengage at will like this.
No need for fix there. Not being able to break my tank is equal to ability to disengage. Speed fitted ships are ones fitted for max defense.
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InSession
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:54:00 -
[282]
Edited by: InSession on 08/10/2008 22:54:17
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
Originally by: InSession
#1 - Raven tackled by a solo nano ship in a belt (Usually me being the nano)
1) People complain the Ishtar is just a drop drones, orbit and fall asleep pwn mobile. Well Raven pilots, you have two free high-slots to play with on your ship so use them. Most Raven pilots I have run into put a cloak on so lets say they have just one high-slot. Simple fix, fit a large energy neutralizer. An Ishtar can carry a maximum of 9 cap booster 800s iirc. So simply neut the Ishtar, and shoot his drones and most of the time the Ishtar will leave you alone. I can tell you right now as an Ishtar pilot who solo's frequently that when I get neuted and a Raven stars pounding at my poor Ogre's I usually bug off unless the said Raven is melting.
This is the issue they are trying to address.. Most of the time the nano is at zero risk. Worst case they simply disengage. No ship should be able to disengage at will like this.
So not only should your PvE ship grind through rats like cake but it should be able to successfully destroy any opposing force whether it be AI or human? That sounds just a tad overpowered to me. Every ship has a weakness, either you fit your Raven with webs, point, and whatever mods you want to take my nano ship out, but you will lose your edge in PvE. Or you tank it up, and put some mods in your high slots to make me run away. Either way you win, it's just that one of the outcomes doesn't give you a KM.
Like the reply above me states, the nano's best defense is its speed. It can't take a whole of damage without an MWD so once you immobilize my speed I am out. You win.
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Murtala
Mushin Market
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:58:00 -
[283]
Please add my vote to the "Nerf Nano" list.
Thank you for you time.
pfff silly nanophags
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.08 22:58:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Berious At least now they can't pretend the CSM experiment was anything but smoke up our ass when 2:1 vote against a nanonerf with a big turnout and it's back anyway.
2:1 is actually a pretty damning number, given that people will often shout loudly when they're AGAINST something, but will stay silent when they AGREE with something.
I love the salty tears when people have their I-Win buttons taken away
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:01:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Berious At least now they can't pretend the CSM experiment was anything but smoke up our ass when 2:1 vote against a nanonerf with a big turnout and it's back anyway.
2:1 is actually a pretty damning number, given that people will often shout loudly when they're AGAINST something, but will stay silent when they AGREE with something.
I love the salty tears when people have their I-Win buttons taken away
'I win button' was not removed. PvPers will always have it because they can adapt, learn and evolve. It is you being left with 'salty tears' and whines forever... |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:04:00 -
[286]
Originally by: InSession Either way you win, it's just that one of the outcomes doesn't give you a KM.
Like the reply above me states, the nano's best defense is its speed. It can't take a whole of damage without an MWD so once you immobilize my speed I am out. You win.
You don't get the difference between 'not losing' and 'winning'. They're not the same.
Nano'ing means you can't lose (unless you're a complete tool), and often win. Other ships can't win against nano's, but often lose. Ie. risk/reward for nano'ing is skewed.
On an EVE-wide average, nano-ships should die approximately as much as any other well-fitted ship. We all know they don't, thus they need a nerf!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Karbowiak
Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:09:00 -
[287]
Nanos are not an iwin button far from it..
Only thing the nanonerf will lead to is more blobs, but hey CCP just gave us stackless IO and are giving us bigger and better servers - so i guess it all goes hand in hand? :P
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bodycollecter
Caldari Free Galactic Enterprises Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:13:00 -
[288]
sweet its not caldari being nerfed. this has been a long time coming and to all those who are against it i feel your pain. Train something up then set up multiple ships for this. train x y z skills to augment the play style. Then Whammy!! Nerf bat strikes for 10inches in your eye socket.
Welcome to EVE baby!
p.s. I'm a pure caldari pilot i don't like nano gangs/ however I know what its like to have the shoe on myself. So i feel for the people this will effect.
Signed/BC FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION VIDEO |
James Marshalll
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:15:00 -
[289]
Ive tried to read it all but I didn't see if this was posted.
Why not leave speed alone? Leave everything alone but change Warp Disrupts? Have them scripted.
for example:
2pt short range warp scrams:
Unscripted: 1pt warp scram / 50% chance to disable target MWD while activated for one cycle. Scripted w/ Point: 3pts. Scripted w/ MWD Disable: Disable of MWD of target ship while module is activated using the current base range of the module.
Same idea with the long range 1pt scrams:
Unscripted 1pt warp scram / 25% chance to disable target MWD while activated for one cycle Scripted w/ Point: 2pt Scripted w/ MWD Disable: Disable of MWD of target ship while module is activated using the current base range of the module.
To me people need to start realizing the risk vs reward of using a super nano ship. The snakes, complex/officer loot is an expensive option to swallow. You spend loads of time either camping isk, or running complexes/running missions for mods and snakes. Either way, you lose your ship, you are out a lot more then the person who is fighting against you.
Use ships like rapiers, use modules like neuts, nano ships are not the end all be all of a fight. No reason to slow down this game anymore then it already has gotten, please, it would be the last nail in the coffin of a lot of players.
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Koto Mogwet
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:17:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Tak Sder One big reasons Nanos are so invulnerable is a previous patch. When you web someone their agility decreases, their inertia increases, and they don't slow down very fast. This allows a nano you web to fly right out of web range. How about undoing that, and maybe even giving webs a mild buff to increase range or rate of speed slowdown. Then they can slow down ships that are going too fast to fight. Voila, problem solved, and much less baroque than some of the solutions being proposed.
And of course, there was a very heavy handed missile nerf which brought in explosion speed, and oh by the way (for that and other reasons) rendered missile boats almost useless in PvP.
So now because of two previous nerfs, you have to pile on yet another ill considered, far reaching nerf? One that is very complicated, and has a lots of side effects. Like most nerfs, it will have lots of lots of side effects, will render billions of invested ISK worthless, render months of training time wasted, and be a medicine worse than the disease it is meant to cure.
How about making VERY SMALL, incremental changes here, and focusing on undoing parts of previous changes instead of adding on new ones?
-----
I know a old lady who swallowed a dog What a hog to swallow a dog! She swallowed the dog to catch the cat She swallowed the cat to catch the bird She swallowed the bird to catch the spider That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her She swallowed the spider to catch the fly But I don't know why she swallowed that fly Perhaps she'll die
Switch "old lady" to CCP, every animal to "nerf", and for die put in "have all her customers go play something else".
QFT, QFFT
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Rick Thwaites
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:24:00 -
[291]
Edited by: Rick Thwaites on 08/10/2008 23:25:34 Odd. Here I was thinking that nanos have ALREADY been REBALANCED (nanoDomi anyone).
So, they are being rerebalanced? --
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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:30:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Karbowiak Nanos are not an iwin button far from it..
Only thing the nanonerf will lead to is more blobs, but hey CCP just gave us stackless IO and are giving us bigger and better servers - so i guess it all goes hand in hand? :P
Funny how its always tri that emo's so much about this. Learn to adapt? Used to hear that alot from tri members a while back on the forums.
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Killer Rasta
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:30:00 -
[293]
Lets resume: 100% of ppl who did listen to dev live sad it sucks and it was all waist of time,CCP is filing our ayes and ears whith sand.
99% of ppl who want nano to be nerf r crapi pve players which idea of pvp is biger the ship-biger posibiliti of win is,and still thay dont fit not even 1 pvp modul(point,web,heavy neut and so on).
99% of ppl who are agains nano nerf are real pvp players,who do understand time and efort,isk price and dedication necesery to properly fly nano ship,and allso fragil side of nano ships,and knowing all the posibilitis that players do have to kill nano ship.
CCP you are doing big mistake here,by trying to nerf top speads that dedicatid player do reach by nerfing so many diferent moduls,wepons,and ship clasys and certan factions like minimatars who are going to sufer great hit and all their ships.
IN A SIMBOL OF PROTEST IM TAKEING OUT OF GAME OF OF MY ACOUNTS,FOR A PERIOD OF 1 MOONTH.ccp GET SERIOS AND DO STUFF PROPERLY,THAT DEV LIVE WAS CRAP,SHAME ON YOU......
FOR PVP QUESTIONS LISTEN PVP PLAYERS AND NOT SOME CARBEARS WHICH R FLYING RAVEN PVE FITID IN 0.0 BELTS.
BYW IF SOMETHING HAVE TO BE NERFD NERF THE DRAKE,A BC SIZE THAT CAN TANK 2 HAC PILOTS,FLYING 100M WORTH SHIPS, WHITH ALL SKILLS TO LVL5, NOT BEING ABEL TO BRAIK A TANK OF CHEAP BC AS DRAKE.SO LETS ALL CRY ABOUTH THAT AND SEE WILL U NERF THE DRAKE... BAH
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Psyfr
Minmatar Sounds Of Violence Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:33:00 -
[294]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: Karbowiak Nanos are not an iwin button far from it..
Only thing the nanonerf will lead to is more blobs, but hey CCP just gave us stackless IO and are giving us bigger and better servers - so i guess it all goes hand in hand? :P
Funny how its always tri that emo's so much about this. Learn to adapt? Used to hear that alot from tri members a while back on the forums.
hard to adapt when the changes arent live. there is a right way and wrong way to balance speed. guess which way ccp went
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Psyfr
Minmatar Sounds Of Violence Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:38:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Killer Rasta Lets resume: 100% of ppl who did listen to dev live sad it sucks and it was all waist of time,CCP is filing our ayes and ears whith sand.
99% of ppl who want nano to be nerf r crapi pve players which idea of pvp is biger the ship-biger posibiliti of win is,and still thay dont fit not even 1 pvp modul(point,web,heavy neut and so on).
99% of ppl who are agains nano nerf are real pvp players,who do understand time and efort,isk price and dedication necesery to properly fly nano ship,and allso fragil side of nano ships,and knowing all the posibilitis that players do have to kill nano ship.
CCP you are doing big mistake here,by trying to nerf top speads that dedicatid player do reach by nerfing so many diferent moduls,wepons,and ship clasys and certan factions like minimatars who are going to sufer great hit and all their ships.
IN A SIMBOL OF PROTEST IM TAKEING OUT OF GAME OF OF MY ACOUNTS,FOR A PERIOD OF 1 MOONTH.ccp GET SERIOS AND DO STUFF PROPERLY,THAT DEV LIVE WAS CRAP,SHAME ON YOU......
FOR PVP QUESTIONS LISTEN PVP PLAYERS AND NOT SOME CARBEARS WHICH R FLYING RAVEN PVE FITID IN 0.0 BELTS.
BYW IF SOMETHING HAVE TO BE NERFD NERF THE DRAKE,A BC SIZE THAT CAN TANK 2 HAC PILOTS,FLYING 100M WORTH SHIPS, WHITH ALL SKILLS TO LVL5, NOT BEING ABEL TO BRAIK A TANK OF CHEAP BC AS DRAKE.SO LETS ALL CRY ABOUTH THAT AND SEE WILL U NERF THE DRAKE... BAH
youre giving nano pilots a bad name. the drakes specialization lies in its tank, much the same how a vaga has its speed. any nano ship that cant lay down dps and mwd at the same time (read: everything besides the ishtar and sac) will get eaten alive by a drake, solo or paired. l2p nub.
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BFish
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:48:00 -
[296]
Edited by: BFish on 08/10/2008 23:50:05 Edited by: BFish on 08/10/2008 23:48:49
Originally by: Killer Rasta Lets resume: 100% of ppl who did listen to dev live sad it sucks and it was all waist of time,CCP is filing our ayes and ears whith sand.
99% of ppl who want nano to be nerf r crapi pve players which idea of pvp is biger the ship-biger posibiliti of win is,and still thay dont fit not even 1 pvp modul(point,web,heavy neut and so on).
99% of ppl who are agains nano nerf are real pvp players,who do understand time and efort,isk price and dedication necesery to properly fly nano ship,and allso fragil side of nano ships,and knowing all the posibilitis that players do have to kill nano ship.
CCP you are doing big mistake here,by trying to nerf top speads that dedicatid player do reach by nerfing so many diferent moduls,wepons,and ship clasys and certan factions like minimatars who are going to sufer great hit and all their ships.
IN A SIMBOL OF PROTEST IM TAKEING OUT OF GAME OF OF MY ACOUNTS,FOR A PERIOD OF 1 MOONTH.ccp GET SERIOS AND DO STUFF PROPERLY,THAT DEV LIVE WAS CRAP,SHAME ON YOU......
FOR PVP QUESTIONS LISTEN PVP PLAYERS AND NOT SOME CARBEARS WHICH R FLYING RAVEN PVE FITID IN 0.0 BELTS.
BYW IF SOMETHING HAVE TO BE NERFD NERF THE DRAKE,A BC SIZE THAT CAN TANK 2 HAC PILOTS,FLYING 100M WORTH SHIPS, WHITH ALL SKILLS TO LVL5, NOT BEING ABEL TO BRAIK A TANK OF CHEAP BC AS DRAKE.SO LETS ALL CRY ABOUTH THAT AND SEE WILL U NERF THE DRAKE... BAH
Screw nano pilots, you're ruining the English language. Learn to type like a civilised person and maybe I won't go tl;dr all over your face.
Anyway. In conclusion, CCP were cowards in the live dev blog. They noticed the influx of questions about things they didn't want to answer, and thus made the dev blog shorter so they didn't have to answer them. Thats my speculative opinion due to my current excessive levels of rage and anger.
CCP, stop ruining the game. Two terrible nerfs do not make a right.
/spewing of hatred.
PS - Please record the names of people who spam like that on the in game chat after the dev blog, as a result my eve crashed and I had to reboot.
PPS - At the quote: Fail troll is fail.
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.10.08 23:50:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
This is the issue they are trying to address.. Most of the time the nano is at zero risk. Worst case they simply disengage. No ship should be able to disengage at will like this.
Flying a nano ship is nowhere near zero risk, especially if you get hit with a large neutralizer. If CCP are to eliminate zero risk is space they should address the following first:
Aggression timers outside stations: Way too often I see players sit within docking range of stations that are near impossible to bump off due to a huge docking radius, in tanked ships (BS / Command ships) The aggression timer is so short they have zero risk, if anything scary appears, they just de-aggro and dock. Why not increase aggression timers when a station is on grid? (by the way. if they nano-nerf is put through, bumping will be near impossible, so this will be an even bigger problem.)
Zero risk NPCing in 0.0 thanks to cloaking battleships and no NPC aggro timers: Ratting in 0.0 space can be quite profitable, why should it be zero risk? Even if a logoff macro is not used, all a player has todo is watch local and warp to a safe and cloak as soon as another player appears in local. Even if the ship is somehow caught, all it has todo is logoff before its aggressed by another player and it will be safe in 30 seconds. Again zero risk, why should a battleship even be able to fit a cloak? and why not give NPCs the same aggression timer (15 minutes) as player aggression.
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2Bad4Ux2
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:01:00 -
[298]
Edited by: 2Bad4Ux2 on 09/10/2008 00:02:41 I don't know if these suggestions have been tossed out, but 1) base web decel and inertia penalties on masses of ships..(tougher to slow down something small and agile, compared to a heavily plated bs) so maybe inties would only get -60% to top speed due to a web.. compared to 90% min agility plated BS.. giving smaller ships chances to orbit larger ones while webbed still harming tracking. 2) no nerf at all or simply some adjustment to stacking penalty of rigs and/or how they stack in addition to fitted modules.
TBH nano's aren't fantastic at all.. they are vulnerable to many things. 1) lasers 2) autocannon's 3) NEUTS/curses/huginns. Many of us good pvp'rs that can actually claim to be pvp'rs.. (not I mission all day and accidentally took a wrong turn people) know that most nano hacs.. can and will get beaten by a t1 cruiser.. infact a t1 cruiser with a 1600mm rolled tungsten slowing it down and no rigs. I kill inty after inty in my 100mm plated unrigged ranis, with no speed hardwirings/snakes at all.
If speed is nerfed I don't really care.. but attempt last time nerfed everything up to BS's and all turrets etc. There's no use for T2 ships if they can't go fast tbh. 1 on 1 they are just sad. People only ever really get beat when not prepared for them or they are in a gang. Any lone player should lose to any PVP fit gang, so that's a null arguement.. and if they aren't pvp fit.. with neut..maybe web drones or stuff that can hit 20km out well then they just lost and got beat in a 1 on 1. I killed a ruppy yesterday with a punisher with no speed b/c he wasn't pvp fit..nerf that too eh? TRuST me I felt this way also a long time ago, but skills have changed and it's fairly easy to defeat them 1 on 1 they get confidence from gang ganks.. but without all the variable support ships they are not by any means something that makes my boots shake when i see one.
sorry for long essay! ------- W2A! How Cruel Stickin' It X2
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Zaknussem
Caldari The Ironbreakers
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:02:00 -
[299]
Edited by: Zaknussem on 09/10/2008 00:04:19 I listened to the dev blog. Many people seem to have not heard the question that went along the lines of "Will non-related modules (like guns) be looked at in relation to the speed nerf?" The answer was yes. That doesn't neccessarily mean that they'll look at it right away, it might take a patch or two to sort all that out...
But there was one thing in this that I couldn't catch the details on, the bit with moving several implants so that they all share the same slot. Exactly what implants were they talking about (I heard Snake Omega and one of the "Rogue" implants being mentioned) and what slot was being referred to?
EDIT: Wrong implant. Corrected. |
Kreeak
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:11:00 -
[300]
Nothing new in the blog, therefore...
Deploy the patch!
My freighter (the one with the banner of a polycarb crossed out on the side) will be picking up rage-quitting stuff all day.
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Killer Rasta
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:13:00 -
[301]
Screw nano pilots, you're ruining the English language. Learn to type like a civilised person and maybe I won't go tl;dr all over your face.
MAYBE THIS WILL SOUND LIKE BIG SUPRISE TO YOU,BUT I HAVE TO INFORM YOU THAT THERE IS A BIG WORLD OUT THERE AND NOT ALL HUMAS ON PLANET DO HAVE ENGLISH AS THAIR FIRST LAUNGUAGE.SO WHILE THIS PLANET IS FULL OF DUMBAS..... AS YOU ARE,THAT DO ESPECT THAT ALL HUMANS DO SPEAK AND WRITE PROPERLY ENGLISH,IT IS GOING TO BE WORLD FULL OF IGNORENC. IM MORE THAN HAPPY WHITH MY ENGLISH,NOW LEEME SEE HOW DO U SPEAK AND WRITE CROATIAN,SPANISH OR ITALIAN MR.GREAT GRAMMA MAN.
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Arro Cera
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:20:00 -
[302]
I am All for the speed nerf i think its totaly needed, i know it may take alot of money and skill wiether to fly nano alot, and even experience, butit should not be a way of pvp, maybe away of escape in certain ships. i belive some ships are designed to go fast and i respect this becuase they have thier advantage but when they are ships that are completly over powered(for example ishtar, Sac, cerb). So i think that you should redesign webbers to have a certain effectiveness on how big the ship is for example interceptors were designed to go really fast and they are small and they would keep this effect and i think the vagabond may be good in nano its not all that great and it genrally has a smaller sig radius (and could even be fixed to make it smaller since ITS only viable option is to go fast). So in the idea of this, when people are in battle ships and are big hitters it webs them down to the 100% effectiveness of the module. where as if your in a bs vs a cruiser sized ship it could only have 60-70% effectiveness. now to fix the people who still will be able to go at much faster speeds; if the all the webbers were to have a 50% range increase it would even it out completly. now it is still possible to fly at a fast speed and risk it but to stay out of web range you would need a significantly less damage, longer range, dealing weapon to fit for speed and still be safe, usally in most cases longer the range the less the damage, not always true but for the most part it will work out. so in this idea the nano ship after the nerf will only really have the role of the tackler at thier own risk.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:26:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Raquel Trotter
Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
This is the issue they are trying to address.. Most of the time the nano is at zero risk. Worst case they simply disengage. No ship should be able to disengage at will like this.
Flying a nano ship is nowhere near zero risk, especially if you get hit with a large neutralizer. If CCP are to eliminate zero risk is space they should address the following first:
Aggression timers outside stations: Way too often I see players sit within docking range of stations that are near impossible to bump off due to a huge docking radius, in tanked ships (BS / Command ships) The aggression timer is so short they have zero risk, if anything scary appears, they just de-aggro and dock. Why not increase aggression timers when a station is on grid? (by the way. if they nano-nerf is put through, bumping will be near impossible, so this will be an even bigger problem.)
Zero risk NPCing in 0.0 thanks to cloaking battleships and no NPC aggro timers: Ratting in 0.0 space can be quite profitable, why should it be zero risk? Even if a logoff macro is not used, all a player has todo is watch local and warp to a safe and cloak as soon as another player appears in local. Even if the ship is somehow caught, all it has todo is logoff before its aggressed by another player and it will be safe in 30 seconds. Again zero risk, why should a battleship even be able to fit a cloak? and why not give NPCs the same aggression timer (15 minutes) as player aggression.
Agreed, nano's probably need a little bit of a rebalance but not the kick in the face CCP has planned, there are more pressing issues that are actually easier to deal with like station hugging etc...
Also, did anyone actually record this? Haven't seen anyone pp up with a link yet =[
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Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:31:00 -
[304]
CCP - Too cowardly (lazy?) to put out an actual dev blog stating the latest game changes. Add to that a lame-assed "live" dev blog that was half as long as it was supposed to be, had shit audio, and reached even a smaller fraction of the player base than those that read the forums.
CCP continues to show complete contempt for their customers and boundless arrogance through the utter disregard for ideas and suggestions that come from players that have been involved with the game longer than some of CCPs own developers. ---- Train more. Whine less.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:37:00 -
[305]
null null This may come as a surprise to those of you who just joined the community in the last 1.5 -2 years.. But.. Eve was fun and VERY playable BEFORE nanos were a glimmer in CCP's eye. Hacs were all over and feared, blobs were present ( not a new feature ) and you learned to use a scout or your scanner, or to die like a man. Eve will be fine when nanos are gone, and they WILL BE GONE, they are broke.
True pvpers will adapt and be just as deadly, altho they will have to learn to pick targets cause running wont be an option 95% of the time as it is now.
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kiwiaka
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Posted - 2008.10.09 00:39:00 -
[306]
Hello ccp, I come from a film editing backgound and spend my days sitting opposite an avid. I assume some of u might know what that is. Here's something that i think will be easy for u guys to implement and will add a lot to the playability of eve. In avid u can have multiple, logical, and custom item sorting. I think the market, the assets and the hangar tabs could benefit greatly from having for eg. a custom sort column where the player can enter his own classification and sort the items using that - or maybe multiple sorts whereby a player can sort items by amount in stock and then by item group etc.. Have a look at how Avid does it in their bins... it would be a very powerful tool to decrease the amount of time a player goes cross eyed trying to locate an item in their hangar. I dont know if this applies to your topic of speed balancing but it will certainly add speed and function to the interface.
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Johnny Trigger
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:06:00 -
[307]
Immediately when the live blog started, they linked the original nozh forum blog. That right there showed me that nothing said in response to that blog was even read. all that constructive feedback ignored. and the vote thread 'against' the nerf is ignored too.
so whats the point....
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stagz
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:14:00 -
[308]
Edited by: stagz on 09/10/2008 01:14:33 OH MY GOD
take things one step at a time!!! WHATS THE RUSH?
NERF SNAKES > assess impact
NERF SPEED RIGS > assess impact
NERF NANOFIBERS > assess impact
dont just go smashing everything with a sledge hammer and then adding a few stupid little things like web, scram and missile changes to try and balance the failfix
yes ridiculous speed needs to be fixed, but not all speed. anyone with half a brain can counter a nano gang if you have the right fleet the nano gang will die, if you have the wrong fleet you're fleet will die. i wouldnt even go that far, its more the correct fitting as opposed to the right gang for a good counter. this is what makes eve a great game, its a gamble. non of this wow rubbish where everything is the same and outcomes are determined by numbers as opposed to TACTICS!!!! dont take eve down this path, YOU ARE DUMBING IT DOWN.
minimal changes to the right areas NOT WHOLESALE CHANGES!!!!!! anything else and you are going to break minmitar
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2Bad4Ux2
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:33:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Arro Cera but when they are ships that are completly over powered(for example ishtar, Sac, cerb)... if the all the webbers were to have a 50% range increase it would even it out completly. now it is still possible to fly at a fast speed and risk it but to stay out of web range you would need a significantly less damage, longer range, dealing weapon to fit for speed and still be safe, usally in most cases longer the range the less the damage, not always true but for the most part it will work out. so in this idea the nano ship after the nerf will only really have the role of the tackler at thier own risk.
1) you seem to not know much about pvp or appear to do it much. They aren't overpowered.. 1v1 ishtar.. kill drones.. while it flies around with no guns or 2 small railguns.. Sacrilege cerb ishtar.. counter is a rupture with a 1600 plate and whatch them melt. 2) Nano makes them weak 1v1, they have no typical hac tank, ishtar has 2 shield extenders or 1 med rep typically nano'd and sucks b/c it will not web you.. so you dock up jump.. or fight and kill it's drones in a big ship. 3) webs going out to 15km. That's a terrific blaster nerf, do you think about anything before typing ideas? How is any BS supposed to mwd to another for naturally close weapon range being webbed at 18km (overload).
Nano's are weak.. gangs of nano's are strong.. gangs of anything are strong. SKills defeat nano pilots easily, and it's demonstrated in eve movies on this forum every week, they are the easiest t2 ship to kill in a 1 v 1 with a rupture. So as everyone stated before your arguement is about gangs of ships, which have always been there, or the fact that you haven't learned how to fit a web mwd and train thermodynamics yet, which would be your own fault. ------- W2A! How Cruel Stickin' It X2
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OrDeR
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:38:00 -
[310]
nano nerf will make alot of alliance fail, which base all their tactics on these nano ships, this will be interesting =)
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:47:00 -
[311]
name one that is full of ppl spec'ed in nano and then stopped training after they had all of those 2mill skillpoints trained?
Not that I think speed slow down is a good idea, I'd sooner see missiles go 10x as fast Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it." |
Shin'Tor Varikior
Minmatar Tactical Information Tribunal
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Posted - 2008.10.09 01:55:00 -
[312]
Needless to say though, with these incoming changes, it shall be some interesting times in EVE while the player base adapts to the new speed limits.
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Cpt Crash
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Posted - 2008.10.09 02:09:00 -
[313]
all i have to say is welcome to MMO's that's what pushes us to find the next big thing and believe me there will be something. however i will comment that i like the idea of just adding a punishment to the speed such as structural damage or something else the global nerf is good though because what ccp is really trying to do here is not completly ran sack nano it really comes down to they are taking everthing and starting over which is a good idea. at first nano and close range ships will take a large hit but will gradually regain there stature. stop looking at it as a nerf as ccp has commented that the idea behind it is to completly start over. which means in the near future they will gradually re introduce ways to achieve speed tanks. for the most part this is what makes MMO's so much fun they are in a constant state of change. secondly the passive shield tank yes can be frustrating but without it then what good are bc's, this deosnt just appply to the drake as the myrm actually out performs the drakes passive tank esspecially if you put autocannons on it then your not useing cap what so ever. personally maybe a small adjustment to them but nothing crazy i would like to see more creative tanks like this maybe a matching armor tank such as being able to use drones or a passive repair module for armor tanks or even combo tanks that are actually effective. i hate to see speed go so quickly as it is one of the unique tanks but im sure its not the last we will see of it and i pray that ccp will start introducing new unique tanks that arent race specific. even sustainable structure tanks would be awesome.
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El ConejoBlanco
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Posted - 2008.10.09 02:12:00 -
[314]
I know I'm wasting my time. But I just can't help myself.
There is not a SINGLE piece of evidence out there that points to a speed nerf being needed, and I can counter any you think you might have.
I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. Simply saying, "Nanos are broke because they are.", isn't a valid argument.
See here to post replies: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=892649
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Nayomi
Minmatar Mean Anglo-Danes
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Posted - 2008.10.09 02:32:00 -
[315]
Edited by: Nayomi on 09/10/2008 02:40:31 Edited by: Nayomi on 09/10/2008 02:37:39 Edited by: Nayomi on 09/10/2008 02:35:34
Originally by: The Froon Edited by: The Froon on 06/10/2008 15:38:30 Edited by: The Froon on 06/10/2008 15:37:15 As gamebreaking speeds are a problem, would a speed cap be a better way of balancing rather than web/scram changes? Depending on type of ship any speeds over a certain limit would generate hull damage for example. This way very short bursts of speed to escape are still do-able but combat at those speeds would be impossible. Failing that just setting a max speed without the hull-damage effects would be better. Normal 4-5k/s nanoships are easily countered as it is(BS heavy neuts,rapiers etc) so the only problem are the 15k/s crows zooming about
I think this is a great idea. Make the maximum speed a factor based on a ships mass and hull integrity, ships that break this 'balance' would incur hull damage at some rate akin to heat damage. This would keep small ships faster than bigger ships and would still allow bigger ships to be fast at a cost.
This would also make hull modules sell more and be an actual viable component as increasing you hull hp would allow you to achieve higher speeds, at the cost of having a tighter fitting of course.
Or you could just make it so that MWDs only allow you to go in a straight line. Make them destroy your ships agility, something similar to the tunnel thing in standard warp. Make it a 'navigational computer' limitation. Make the MWD a 'travel to' module rather than a fighting module, it would still be useful in getting ships in close fast, but then to maneuver when they arrive they have to shut it off or perhaps fit both MWD and AB, you would even reduce the fitting requirements for MWDs a little to allow for both to be fitted. One to get in close, one to maneuver when you get there.
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chopper14
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Posted - 2008.10.09 02:46:00 -
[316]
there are already ships out there that can kill interceptors effectivly and im sure that a hac can kill a hac sounds to me like we are getting a nerf because of some peoples inability to build up and balance their fleet. I liked independance war better interceptors could destroy carriers if they got on their 6 fast enough and acelerate to almost the speed of light out thrusting and manuvering any missile with regular thrusters of course asteroids also stoped incoming fire and would destroy you instantly if you hit them with any speed a little too realistic for eve i know. I belive the problems are isk based and skill based. only the few can fly or even afford the proper counters to these ships and since it is set up like a chess Game. its almost impossible for a small fleet to route a large one especially when several of the pilots in any new fleet are in t1 ships that are obsolete the moment you finalize a war dec or step into 0.0. Nerfing any missile boat more than they have already is silly their dps already stinks and missiles have to fly to the target on top of that. why not just make ships easier to aquire and stock up on gila's, rooks, crows, marauders, and other fine caldari faction and t2 vessels ;P as for reducing blobs make the space based warfare more realistic where a few good pilot's can actually use their non skill chart based skills in combat to take on more than one ship, via opening universal weaknesses and strengths to all ships and mayby people wont feel like the only chance they have to win is by fc'ng the biggest blob on the map. try playing independance war 2 in instant action mode for awhile to get a feel for how a interceptor can kill a super capital and vise versa. if this was independance war online and I was in my interceptor people would be calling for a character nerf p.s. scram jam bam the hac's with interceptors ecm cruisers and finally sniping battleship w/ medium t2 drones. as for the "too fast" interceptors. each race has 2 types, one of them is well suited to takle and kill its counterpart and that ship is just slow enough to get gang banged by a simple t1 moa with a scram double web tackle gear. Now stop nerfing make a strategy guide and get to work on our t2 battlecruisers!
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ghim
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Posted - 2008.10.09 02:58:00 -
[317]
To the Devs,
If your planning on nerfing Nano HACs and other "ships that are too fast" then please realize that your also hitting a large population of folks that like pvp which does not require a simple numbers to win. Small roaming gangs are far more fun than hours of lag and useless time in blobs.
Regarding counters for nano ships, simply look to ewar, drone navigation computers (yes, t2 light drones can hit over 9k with two fitted, that's a lot faster than most HACs) and/or gang tanking. The idea that you can't win against nano gangs is simply false. The alternative is to bias the game towards high dps gank ships that force folks to fly in larger and larger gangs....and then we get lag. Did we forget Jita or any major 0.0 engagement?
If you want to balance the game, include rigs or modules to boost webbing and energy neutralizer range and effectiveness. Adding to the game gives us options, breaking the nerf bat out simply shows a lack of creativity.
Also, would you be willing to refund the months of training time and millions of isk folks have in these ships?
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sdchew
Gallente Jazz Associates Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.10.09 03:19:00 -
[318]
I missed the live dev blog due to timezone differences.
Anyone recorded it?
The day that EVE is truly bug-free, the EVE Gate will probably go super nova and kill us all. |
Celia Cornelia
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Posted - 2008.10.09 03:32:00 -
[319]
I understand the need to do it and agree with most everything, I love the idea of scramblers being able to break a mwd too, but I want to know why are we reducing the effectiveness of the web, and I also would like to know if interceptors will still have there insane speed because without it they will be nearly useless?
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Foulque
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Posted - 2008.10.09 03:44:00 -
[320]
Originally by: stagz Edited by: stagz on 09/10/2008 01:14:33 WHATS THE RUSH?
NERF SNAKES > assess impact
NERF SPEED RIGS > assess impact
NERF NANOFIBERS > assess impact
^ Would be a far better way to go about things, maybe not so drawn out as above but something like....
Nerf Snakes, Polies and slight mass changes i.e. AF's etc..
Then take a look and see if that has the desired effect, I'm pretty sure just that would take away the ridiculous speeds wihle also leaving speed as a viable option.
Lumping the above changes together with the whole host of other changes proposed is just asking to break something. With the amount of time between the original proposal by CCP and now I had thought they were taking their time to guage feedback from sisi and take note of the huge amount of feedback here on the forums. Not all of it was constructive but there are a great deal of very well thought out arguments against the proposed changes.
From people comments about the blog it seems like this isn't the case though
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Ivana Screwyou
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Posted - 2008.10.09 04:10:00 -
[321]
Finally a minmatar nerf... Finally a nerf not on caldari.... I never thought I would see the day! |
muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.09 04:50:00 -
[322]
- general game facts
A properly fitted Vagabond can NOT perma run it's MWD by any means. It can also be reduced to slower than a carrier by minmitar recons or a pair of interceptors that can orbit it so fast that they dodge his turrets (we dont have room for a web..less we sacrifice the shield hitpoints that give us any chance of sticking around to do dps, because even if we could perma run our MWD's we wouldn't be able to hit you for flip even w/ a full rack of tracking computers/enchanchers.) autocannons optimal range are within 3KM, meaning if we want to do full dps we need to be up close and personal, putting ourself in web range, neut range..basically putting ourselves at total risk just by deciding to engage.
Sure with t2 ammo, we can sit w/ 22-24km falloff, however at that range we have reduced changes of hitting...the ammo is already reducing our tracking to almost nothing..and basically in order to kill even a t1 cruiser that's tanked we need to be upclose and doing as much damage as possible. Yet again putting us in a position to be webbed and neuted and committed to the fight. and even without that our only defense to interceptors is jumping through a gate as we can't touch them without some kind of ceptor/rapier/hyena pilot there to slow them down.
Im a vaga pilot..i've been through enough combat in one to know that it is very squishy, and quite vulnerable. In a 1 on 1 experience i am frightened to death by a sacrilidge or a rapier..even a curse. if i even see interceptors my only hope is they have less skills devoted to navigation and speed and didn't buy the rigs, implants, and hardwirings that i worked my ass off for.
My corperation CEO has a phiolosophy...-if they bring 1 ship we bring 2. and its the truth...it may take a pair of t2 ships to catch and down a highly skilled pilot with a lot of isk invested into his clone and ship. But what is it that you're expecting that one ship to do? The most he is going to do is gank a solo battleship setup for pve in the belts.
Unfortunately to be an effective tackle pilot you need to be in a fast small ship with insane locking speeds and the ability to somehow not take damage..and even then you probably need support as you may need to fly away and break your tackle due to incoming drones or dps. As it stands if x pilot were able to rig and fit a vagabond that did 9km/s w/ the help of some extremely expensive implants, that same pilot could hop into a stiletto (the slower yet more capable ceptor of the minmatar) without rigs and fly faster than the rigged vagabond which has no strong point other than 5 turret slots and its speed. There's no reason with a dictor or large bubble around + a rapier that the 3 ships couldn't stop mr. exepensively fit vagabond and rob him of his snake clone.
It's not like a nano fleet can waltz into a system of capital ships and sniping bs's and come out with even 1 killmail. they would be decimated by inty pilots with fighters.
The question is for the people griping about those of us who took the time to train for these expensive rigs and implants - What in the hell are you guys doing sitting and camping gates without something to drop a bubble, and without ships that lock fast enough to catch a cruiser sized target before it goes into warp?
Maybe making it so ships slow down at a faster rate when webbed than they currently do would be nice but all in all..these "nano" ships w/ the "i win" button are not unstoppable..they don't put out the best dps and don't do well without a proper assortment of ships in your small roaming gang. As it is, its a boasting right to say "We caught and killed this nanoship". At the same time - a solo nano ships only boast is "I killed this dude in his ratting setup"..when ultimately it was the ratter's fault for not watching local in the first place. I think the people crying for a nerf are wanting to be solomobiles in a universe based around fleet warfare.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 05:05:00 -
[323]
Originally by: ghim To the Devs,
If your planning on nerfing Nano HACs and other "ships that are too fast" then please realize that your also hitting a large population of folks that like pvp which does not require a simple numbers to win. Small roaming gangs are far more fun than hours of lag and useless time in blobs.
Regarding counters for nano ships, simply look to ewar, drone navigation computers (yes, t2 light drones can hit over 9k with two fitted, that's a lot faster than most HACs) and/or gang tanking. The idea that you can't win against nano gangs is simply false. The alternative is to bias the game towards high dps gank ships that force folks to fly in larger and larger gangs....and then we get lag. Did we forget Jita or any major 0.0 engagement?
If you want to balance the game, include rigs or modules to boost webbing and energy neutralizer range and effectiveness. Adding to the game gives us options, breaking the nerf bat out simply shows a lack of creativity.
Also, would you be willing to refund the months of training time and millions of isk folks have in these ships?
you 100% correct i dont know why ppl think that nanos are the end all unkillable pvp pwn boats cus they are not! like he said t2 small drons can hit really fast ships. if you are scared of the nanos bring a bs or cruiser along with large drone bay so he can launch the anti nano t2 smalls. all in all there is nothing wrong with the game as it is. what is wrong is the lack of creativity in players that run around in gank blobs. eve is supposed to be a tactical game and time and time again it turns more and more into you typical run of the mill mmo. and i know no one here wants to see that happen especially you CCP. Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Chenrezig
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Posted - 2008.10.09 05:05:00 -
[324]
Where can we hear this dev blog? Text transcription? Online audio recording? Somewhere?
Thanks!
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 05:07:00 -
[325]
(1)
I have said this many times over. If you can go faster then a cruiser nano'd to all hell then there is a serious unbalance. And cruiser and above sould not be able to go fastet then an interceptor.
So why te hell are vagabonds going faster then an interceptor. I have seen a nano'd Minatar commandship go faster the festest interceptor nano'd. So you guys tell me where and when do game mechanics take place then what you want to make your ship invincable. if half of the eve players quit because of a speed nerf then good.
I have herd stories where you could fit a entire row of mid slots full of Micro Warpdrives. The speed they had was rediculous. So all you nano geeks start wineing and complaineing about the microwarp drive nerfs. so you can become even more demi godly and invincable. Go ahwad and complaine. And watch eve players start to leave because you cant play a game the way it was supposto be played.
(2)
Zarnak Wulf
Quote: 2) Will the warp scrambler still shut down MWD
Those mods do exactly what they are designed to do. the MWD shuts down the MWD just like the webafier does. But te scrambler is already nerfed to the use of smaller tacklers. Webers are better used for cruiser because they have the range bonuses.
Sylthi
Quote: Why does your approach to slowing down the ships that you (CCP) seem to think go too fast include making ships that are ALREADY slow, slower? Namely: Battleships
Any ship smaller then a cruiser should at all times go faster then the ship bigger than it. In real life a bomber can not go faster then a regual fighter plane.
Antdung
Quote: A T2 Webber with a falloff off 5km
Non projectile weapons wont have any fall off. that would be like saying people that think have a sertin capacity to think or a brain will over heat like a computer. GET REAL
(3)
A lot of pilots in eve have become to used to unbalance in this game. Basically this whole post is about nerfing the speed demons wo thing they can make anything rediculously fast and in turn they become godly.
This is probably the 20th time i ave said this. any ship smaller then a cruiser shoud be faster then any ship nano'd.
Hacs, Assult frigs and so forth, if CCP is gonna introduce new ships to take the place of these ships then so be it and makes sence if they are slowly dying. If ccp is not gonna introduce new ships to take the place of these ships then they need to be beefed up considerably.
Jesse Jamess
Quote: this nerf could very well be a game ender for alot of people... but i guess we will see...
its not like we get much of a choice in how our pay to play game actually plays....
Well said.
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SeerinDarkness
Minmatar An Tir Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:02:00 -
[326]
im not against ships going fast, that are supposed to go fast, however it should Not be able to constantly flat outrun everything else , we have cruiser class ships outrunning interceptors, this should not be happening except for a couple of exceptions thorax/stabber vaga /demios come to mind specificly. i personally fight nanos just about every day and i see every class of ship going insanely fast for the ship class, i see nanoships beating faction webbifire fit webbing range bonus ships time after time after time from standing starts and making it out to 150+ km warp back to gate range after jumping thru gates, i see a huge amount of targeting failures and the guy has decloaked from jumping and moved 50 km before someone gets a lock. webbifier's that do get applied seemingly dont work,3 webbies applied to any nano ship going 10km m/s or less should be dropping that guy to under 100 m/s even with stacking penalties and it flat is not happening , somehow cruisers are getting BS like mass effects or greater or something. So either something is broken that needs fixing OR there is widespread cheating/3rd party hacked a client program use going on. I am for a speed rebalence and stat fixing of certian items that are overpowered , however that being said i dont see the reasons for some of the other changes in the proposed change that appear to be gameplay changes just for the sake of changeing something else and glosses over the real issue here. For those concerned about blasters/ac's i do suggest looking at the falloff rigs they are very useful. SeerinDarkness
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:16:00 -
[327]
This is fu**ing stupid. And i honestly belive now that CCP is either run by Forest Gump or by the ret*rded brother of Tom Cruise in Rainman (altho the second option might be to kind since at least that guy was smart at something)
WHY IN THE FREAKING RAPTORJESUS NAME YOU NERF SHIPS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FAST!! stupid imbecils i wasted 1 freaking year training my navigation skills and the stupid spaceship command so i could fly fast ships, and since a bunch of skilless players who cant shot sh*t whine like beyotches you got to go and nerf my ships!
*Whiner: BUAAAHHH I CANT CATCH HIM!! *CCP: there there ill slow it down for you.
Wanna kill a vagabond? get into stupid rapiers you dorks brainless mother truckers, use neutralizers, use a falcon and jam the chit out of him... GET A FREAKING CLUE BEFORE WHINING!
You adress the least of the problems here, you push the whole player comunity into eother being a stupid 1.0 carebear or being in a hugemegamorphing blob, and later you hear whinings about lag. There is a lot of options, but you had to go and pick the one that would put the last nail in the coffin where lays small gang skirmish.
I guess its all over what i found fun in EVE, now its either carebear or huge fleet engagements. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:26:00 -
[328]
Originally by: SeerinDarkness im not against ships going fast, that are supposed to go fast, however it should Not be able to constantly flat outrun everything else , we have cruiser class ships outrunning interceptors, this should not be happening except for a couple of exceptions thorax/stabber vaga /demios come to mind specificly.
SeerinDarkness
what in the hell kinda pilots are flying your interceptors? I have maxed navigation skills regarding mwd and ship speed. There is NO unrigged cruiser that could be fit to go faster than any interceptor i could fly in. vagabond = fastest cruiser size vessel - w/o snake implants and only using polycarbons i push it to a little over 6km/s.
without rigs at all in a stiletto i can easily push 6.5km/s permenantly and still have cap to tackle.
Again your argument boils down to a lesser skilled, less risky pilot that doesn't want to throw rigs into a ship that the pilot you're complaining about was willing to spend the isk on. A polycarbed claw will do 11.3km/s easy. my stiletto with lg snakes and no rigs does an easy 9.3-9.5km/s where my vaga with poly's and lg snakes will only push 9km/s. No cruiser t2 or not is faster than the vagabond...
please...put some real facts behind your arguments. Interceptors are by far the fastest ships in the game and the best designed towards getting the initial tackle.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:49:00 -
[329]
This whole issue about nanos is pathetic in the first place.
Not a single aspect which delivers true power in EvE like sovereignty struggles, POS wars and CAP clashes are achieved in any way with nanos.
And there's a very simple way to get a glimpse into how clueless is the antinano crowd:
Set a damn tournament where two gangs of 20 peeps face each other. One made of non-nano fits flown by prominent nanoers, and the nanogang flown by prominent antinano advocates. Giv'em 20 minutes to make the best out of it and then we just count the points based on the amount of popped ships.
But why will it not be done ? Anti-nanos don't want to take the risk to be ridiculed in public. CCP don't want to take the risk to be ridiculed in public.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 06:52:00 -
[330]
your saying that a ship heavier then an intercepor can fly faster ?
think about that.
A vaga has exceptional as fare as cruiser classes go. the fastes cruiser to enter the game. generates more speed per ton then any other cruiser class. and that makes it deadly.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:09:00 -
[331]
Black Necris
Quote: WHY IN THE FREAKING RAPTORJESUS NAME YOU NERF SHIPS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FAST!! stupid imbecils i wasted 1 freaking year training my navigation skills and the stupid spaceship command so i could fly fast ships, and since a bunch of skilless players who cant shot sh*t whine like beyotches you got to go and nerf my ships!
OK YOUR FIRST MISTAKE
You put all that time to take advantage of a bug in the game. That bug is common sence which ou seem to have none.
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Desirable Carnage
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:12:00 -
[332]
Ok food for though for the devs just give a web scrambler 75% velocity penalty and have the Scrambler disable the Microwarp drive or Afterburner and that double benifit/action will drastically change the way things happen and occur ....
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:38:00 -
[333]
Desirable Carnage
Quote: Ok food for though for the devs just give a web scrambler 75% velocity penalty and have the Scrambler disable the Microwarp drive or Afterburner and that double benifit/action will drastically change the way things happen and occur
Once again you are over complicateing things. You are adding more nerfs to the problem.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:40:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Lusian your saying that a ship heavier then an intercepor can fly faster ?
think about that.
A vaga has exceptional as fare as cruiser classes go. the fastes cruiser to enter the game. generates more speed per ton then any other cruiser class. and that makes it deadly.
didnt we just get through explaining that there is not ship that can go faster than a interceptor? and im sorry if in your experience that has happend but that is not the game mechanics being messed up that is your inty pilot sucking it up.
Originally by: lusian
Originally by: Black Necris WHY IN THE FREAKING RAPTORJESUS NAME YOU NERF SHIPS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FAST!! stupid imbecils i wasted 1 freaking year training my navigation skills and the stupid spaceship command so i could fly fast ships, and since a bunch of skilless players who cant shot sh*t whine like beyotches you got to go and nerf my ships!
OK YOUR FIRST MISTAKE
You put all that time to take advantage of a bug in the game. That bug is common sence which ou seem to have none.
he didnt put all of his time into a bug. there is no bug in the game. we could say the same thing for the people complaining about nanos. that they put all of there time inot x and thats why they cant kill us. its true nanos are great ships but they are by far not untouchable. Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:42:00 -
[335]
Scramblers are not webbing mods. Scramblers and webers do different attributes. webafiers reduce your volacity while scramblers nok out your mwd which is why scramblers ave a short range to begin with. Scramblers came out pre nerfed.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:43:00 -
[336]
to be ohnest Xzanos i think its an exploit like being able to use a full rack of MWD's like way back when.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:47:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Lusian Scramblers are not webbing mods. Scramblers and webers do different attributes. webafiers reduce your volacity while scramblers nok out your mwd which is why scramblers ave a short range to begin with. Scramblers came out pre nerfed.
they where not pre nerfed. they have a shorter range yea so what but they also have lower cpu need. they are easier to fit true you still have to get in range but if you got some one scanned out and pinpointed. then you warp on top of them and tada your in range. its true that they are not used that often but if you want to change that just give them strength 2 or something.
nerf=bad adding to the game=good Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 07:50:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Lusian to be honest Xzanos i think its an exploit like being able to use a full rack of MWD's like way back when.
but thats just the thing. that was way back when the game was young there where lots of things wrong with it. and that was a huge extreme i mean the speed bonus that and mwd gives you vs how much you get out of nanos is way different. Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Zecks Marquise
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:01:00 -
[339]
tbh the only reason that they are adding the new thing to the warp scrams is because nobody buys them because they have crap range and ccp is giving people a reason to buy them. Tbh i think they should just get rid of them all together and just make a moduel that does the same thing this "new scram" is suppose to do
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:01:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 08:03:52 Yes the game was fresh and just came out of beta. But the nano ships are the same exact thing like the ful rack of mwd's in gang or fleet warefare. People need to learn to let go and remember that ballance is much better then haveing unrealistic advantages that such ships are not ment for. CCp never thought that a heavy assult ship would out run an interceptor, if they knew nano ships would have been invented by players then CCp would have either scrapped and goten rid of the Interceptors or nerfed the nano ships.
They would have nerfed the nano ships to give the interceptor the ability to implement its affects.
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Zecks Marquise
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:04:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Lusian Yes the game was fresh and just came out of beta. But the nano ships are ther same exact thing but in gang or fleet warefare. people need to learn to let go and remember that ballance is much better then haveing unrealistic advantages that suc ships are not ment for. CCp never thought that a heavy assult ship would out run an interceptor, if they knew nano ships would have been invented by players then CCp would have either scrapped and goten rid of the Interceptors or nerfed the nano ships.
They would have nerfed the nano ships to give the interceptor the ability to implement its affects.
plz stop talking i am going to throw up if i hear anymore from you
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:05:00 -
[342]
Xzanos and i are haveing a friendly discussion and trying to understand eachothers views.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:07:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Lusian Yes the game was fresh and just came out of beta. But the nano ships are ther same exact thing but in gang or fleet warefare. people need to learn to let go and remember that ballance is much better then haveing unrealistic advantages that suc ships are not ment for. CCp never thought that a heavy assult ship would out run an interceptor, if they knew nano ships would have been invented by players then CCp would have either scrapped and goten rid of the Interceptors or nerfed the nano ships.
They would have nerfed the nano ships to give the interceptor the ability to implement its affects.
heavy assault ships cant out run intys!!!!! you cant look at this through your experiences you have to look at what could be. i mean sure x suck as pilot in an interceptor fit with t1 stuff could be out run by the best vaga pilots out there but a semi good inty pilot could easily outrun the same vagas.
in the mulit-mwd days ppl could go near warp speed such is not happening now. there are so many ways to take down nanos.. Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Zecks Marquise
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:08:00 -
[344]
what is to understand....this patch is going to suck harder than a 9 dollar hooker on a friday night plain and simple and if ccp had anyone behind the wheel in the upper story they would take one look at this thread, see that the 99.9 percent of people are against this and tell the other .1 percent to suck it up and deal with it
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Jona Angelus
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:19:00 -
[345]
I realy hope CCP and the anti-nano gang use their brains and figure out that the ships they see going soo fast are fitted with officer modules/polycarbs and the pilots have speed implants,all adding up to about 1bil isk.
Why do people expect to be able to easily catch a player who has invested that much when they have only invested 10mil ?
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:30:00 -
[346]
Edited by: Xzanos on 09/10/2008 08:33:29
Originally by: Jona Angelus I realy hope CCP and the anti-nano gang use their brains and figure out that the ships they see going soo fast are fitted with officer modules/polycarbs and the pilots have speed implants,all adding up to about 1bil isk.
Why do people expect to be able to easily catch a player who has invested that much when they have only invested 10mil ?
i totaly agree with you. and its not only isk but maxed out skills Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Boss BIG
Minmatar Bladerunners
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:35:00 -
[347]
I have an idea maybe they want us to go mining. Battle hulks for the win
________________________________________ I'm the Boss, what else is there to know? |
Stelani Bellana
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:37:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Xzanos
Originally by: Jona Angelus I realy hope CCP and the anti-nano gang use their brains and figure out that the ships they see going soo fast are fitted with officer modules/polycarbs and the pilots have speed implants,all adding up to about 1bil isk.
Why do people expect to be able to easily catch a player who has invested that much when they have only invested 10mil ?
i totaly agree with you. and its not only idk but maxed out skills
ive been saying this for ages.
moaning bastard > wahhh that 3 billion isk ship is going faster than my 10mill isk ship. wahhhh ccp halp. i am crap at eve and cant afford to do that nerf them wahhhhm
hg snakes, 5% rouges shaq speed enhancer, domi mwd, domi overdrives. this costs a fortune, and somone willing to risk so much in a single ship/pod deserved to have a ship that is very very difficult to kill.
the rest of nanoships can easily be countered with a heavy neut or a rapier.
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Iog Krugar
The Rising Stars Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:37:00 -
[349]
less idle bickering, more live dev blog transscripts please... --- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods |
Zecks Marquise
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:44:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Iog Krugar less idle bickering, more live dev blog transscripts please...
this thread is to discuss the topic not grant your every wish you missed it its your fault
STAY IN BED WE GOT IT |
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Tikay Fortooun
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:44:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Lusian your saying that a ship heavier then an intercepor can fly faster ?
think about that.
A vaga has exceptional as fare as cruiser classes go. the fastes cruiser to enter the game. generates more speed per ton then any other cruiser class. and that makes it deadly.
sure it can go faster- it's made of cardboard and it has a bigger engine!
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Mumemafu Praetoriam
Minmatar Comando Vermelho
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:44:00 -
[352]
Well after expend 2h reading all posts, im still bored, in alll my 3 /12 yers playing eve, aways getting nerfed and losin time and isk, well I think is time to quit this games, CCP never listen the players, we expend times, isk and REAL MONEY, OMFG. I knows someone will be "nasty" and say " may I have your stuff now?", so I ll say This crap 44KK SP will be terminated and I ll go back to play ET, is very simple, but they will nerver nerf the Panzer dont matter if the noobs are crying... so, No 1 will get my stuff. lol. And yes, W I ll do w all vagas and pollys? it will be very bad to builders and blablabla.
I think everybody is losing the time. CCP will destroy EVE, its the WOW time ( i cant play it )I think they pay CCP to did it . lol sorry to this long and Useless post.
conection closed by peer.
cheers
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Wodanonline
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:55:00 -
[353]
imo
reballance speed rather then nerf it. indeed nothing should go faster then a interceptor could go.
and dont give minmatar a speed advantage and the also the only recon to stop the advantage.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:59:00 -
[354]
What kind of a moron claims the AF's with a afterburner are gonna be the new roaming gang ship of choice and then points out that they can only tank if they are close to a ship?.
So if theirs more than 1 ship, say theirs a gang of 5 the other 4 are gonna melt the frigin AF or any other tackler cos he will not be under their tracking.
Are ccp stupid or just trying to remove small ships from the game by making tackling against gangs imposable and a guaranteed death sentence??..
CCP learn to play the game before you try to fix stuff cos you have no frigin clue.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 08:59:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Wodanonline imo
reballance speed rather then nerf it. indeed nothing should go faster then a interceptor could go.
and dont give minmatar a speed advantage and the also the only recon to stop the advantage.
minmatare need a speed advantage. true not to all of there ships but alot of miny ships main defense is speed and what does it matter that mini has the best webing ship everyone can use it ------------------------------------------------
Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:12:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Stelani Bellana
Originally by: Xzanos
Originally by: Jona Angelus I realy hope CCP and the anti-nano gang use their brains and figure out that the ships they see going soo fast are fitted with officer modules/polycarbs and the pilots have speed implants,all adding up to about 1bil isk.
Why do people expect to be able to easily catch a player who has invested that much when they have only invested 10mil ?
i totaly agree with you. and its not only idk but maxed out skills
ive been saying this for ages.
moaning bastard > wahhh that 3 billion isk ship is going faster than my 10mill isk ship. wahhhh ccp halp. i am crap at eve and cant afford to do that nerf them wahhhhm
hg snakes, 5% rouges shaq speed enhancer, domi mwd, domi overdrives. this costs a fortune, and somone willing to risk so much in a single ship/pod deserved to have a ship that is very very difficult to kill.
the rest of nanoships can easily be countered with a heavy neut or a rapier.
Ok, this is just stupid. The gap between a 3 billion ISK nano ship and a T2 nano ship is FAR more than the gap between any other 3 billion ISK ship and its T2 equivalent. A fundamental concept of EVE is diminishing returns, the more skills/ISK you invest in specializing in something, the less return you get for each ISK/SP. Nano ships, on the other hand, give you increasing returns and an exponential increase in effectiveness for your billions.
There are two choices for how to deal with this problem:
1) Boost all other faction mods/implants/etc to the point where expensive setups on all other ships can be just as invulnerable. This will obviously not be popular with those of us who don't have 16 hours a day to farm ISK and/or our dad's credit card to ebay it.
OR
2) Nerf Snakes/faction MWDs/etc down to the level of all other faction mods.
The choice here is obvious, nerf the few problem modules/implants and remove the ability to buy your way to complete invulnerability.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:29:00 -
[357]
Quote:
ive been saying this for ages.
moaning bastard > wahhh that 3 billion isk ship is going faster than my 10mill isk ship. wahhhh ccp halp. i am crap at eve and cant afford to do that nerf them wahhhhm
hg snakes, 5% rouges shaq speed enhancer, domi mwd, domi overdrives. this costs a fortune, and somone willing to risk so much in a single ship/pod deserved to have a ship that is very very difficult to kill.
the rest of nanoships can easily be countered with a heavy neut or a rapier.
Quote:
Ok, this is just stupid. The gap between a 3 billion ISK nano ship and a T2 nano ship is FAR more than the gap between any other 3 billion ISK ship and its T2 equivalent. A fundamental concept of EVE is diminishing returns, the more skills/ISK you invest in specializing in something, the less return you get for each ISK/SP. Nano ships, on the other hand, give you increasing returns and an exponential increase in effectiveness for your billions.
There are two choices for how to deal with this problem:
1) Boost all other faction mods/implants/etc to the point where expensive setups on all other ships can be just as invulnerable. This will obviously not be popular with those of us who don't have 16 hours a day to farm ISK and/or our dad's credit card to ebay it.
OR
2) Nerf Snakes/faction MWDs/etc down to the level of all other faction mods.
The choice here is obvious, nerf the few problem modules/implants and remove the ability to buy your way to complete invulnerability.
i dont know why you ppl think that nanos are invulnerable they arnt. we chose to specialize in something. do the same and kill us. if you keep it up the nano fad will die down just like anything in rl ------------------------------------------------
Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:46:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Murina on 09/10/2008 09:49:48
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
The choice here is obvious, nerf the few problem modules/implants and remove the ability to buy your way to complete invulnerability.
Rubbish.
You fools use the word invulnerable way to much imho. When the truth is that these ships are only invulnerable to ppl who do not have the piloting/teamwork skill and cannot be bothered to try.
Almost every nano ship has to slow down to non mwd speeds to do any dmg and those that do not like the ishtar are easily made useless by popping the drones.
NANO is just what the incompetent are pointing their finger at and blaming for their lack of skill at the moment, if this utterly absurd nerf does go through they will soon find summat else to blame until all the true pvpers sit still and let them selves be shot like rats by the useless tards (in other words never).
Morons who know nothing about pvp or eve combat should not be the ones deciding its future.
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Cordial Ripper
Minmatar g guild Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:49:00 -
[359]
Edited by: Cordial Ripper on 09/10/2008 09:52:45 Edited by: Cordial Ripper on 09/10/2008 09:50:57 first of all excuse me for my bad english but i did not studied on the school i just learned it by ear u might say. second of all refering to the speed nerf there are several things to keep in mind. a. everyone complains about nano but not all bother to train for countermeasures, rappier huginn and hyenna are there for a reason u know? b. everyone complains about missiles always hiting the target (even me) and until now speed was the only thing that could make u survive it. c. Stasis webbifiers have their role but rather than nerf them i would see the modification diferent. i would actualy boost them so that ppl would stop complaining about nanos. how? simple. dampeners tracking computers and trakig disruptors already have that methor applyed. made them have scripts. my ideea is this: stasis webbifier without scripts: range 12km speed penalty -75% stasis webbifier with script for range increase: range 18km speed bonus -55% stasis webbifier with script for speed penalty : range 10km speed bonus -90% as u can see each scrip has also a down effect o nthe other attribute. and with this u can still use huggin/rappier like before (the speed bonus attributes must be the attributes of the tech 2 version of the current webber) as for the warp scrambler (2 points) making unable to use the microwarpdrive. the ideea is plaussible but in return there must be made counter measures.(like if the target scramed has 1 wcs on it the special attribute wont apply since there will by only 1 point of scraming and that will be affectign the ship.) this will also leave us with the ideea "why can't 2 warp disruptors then have the same effect?" the way i see it they cant sice warp disruptors have 1 point of scraming and that will be designed just for ships warp drive. now let's return to speed modules that have been so "balanced" lateley
the nanofiber has found it's rightfull attribute tbh, the overdrive injector has the right bonus, the rigs affecting the speed also but what is wrong? they all have stack penalty. not normal. indeed it was made so that no other non-nano capable ships (like battleships and such) can start nanoing around and p**s ppl off. this must be revisited. the incapability of making a inty/vaga go faster now it's a bigg issue. at least if the overdrive stack make the cargo penalty go away as a i see now if u want speed u sacriface to damn much 1. u get less cargo - thus less ammo 2. u get no tank (unless a large/medium shield extender can be called tank) 3. u run out of cap when mwding (except intys but even so some cant keep runing the mwd indefinetly) 4. u get a size penalty when u are mwding thus the chance of beign hit is bigger.
and what do u get in return ? the sole ability to run like hell when a blob is after you. nerfing the speed totaly will cause more extreme lag battles making the game undesireble my dear CCP employes rather than nerfing and "balancing" stuff in eve make sure the ppl asking for a nerf can understand game mechanics first and know how to use them. oh and as a P.S.: u guys need a beter way to keep ure logs or at least record ure logs. many ppl lose stuff and when they ask for reimbursment they all get the "there is nothing in our logs" standard message. and i'm not saying it's GM's fault or anything (i had a problem recently and the GM Sparkle helped as fast as he could and as best as he could, Good work there m8) but the thing is, as it stands now the tech support aint helping much on reimbursment level when the trouble is with the game. how about fixing that?
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:51:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Cordial Ripper GGAAAAAAA MY EYES
Fix your text or nobody will read it.
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Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 09:51:00 -
[361]
1) I missed the live feed.
2) I dont care much about or for the nano nerf though I do use nanos.
3) Havign said all of that if what I see written here that the devs said is half true I worry... Oveur et all used to play this game ... they wouldnt spew bs like eft warriors... What has heppened. Has working for CCP become just another job. Are the new guys in it for a pay check?
4) I think even of the nerf goes through in absolute idiocy as perceived, small gang warfare and rubbing big alliance faces in the mud will still be possible. After all we have been doing it since forever... certainly since before nanos...
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:13:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Semkhet on 09/10/2008 10:16:44
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The choice here is obvious, nerf the few problem modules/implants and remove the ability to buy your way to complete invulnerability.
Complete invulnerability my ass. The last ceptor I lost costed me close to 2 bil isk between the ship + pod. And you know what ? I congratulated the rapier pilot who popped me.
The only problem here are missiles. FFS, the explosion velocity CCP uses is even slower than gun power used in the 18th century... And it's a SciFi game ? Gimme a break.
Ever heard about Scimitars ? Ever heard about Rapiers/Huginns ? Ever heard about Curses ? Ever heard about big bubbles ? Ever heard about Logistics to keep your stuff alive ? Tracking links ? Remote Sensor Dampers ? ECM ? Drone mods making Warriors II fly beyond 10 Km/sec ?
All I know is that competent nanopilots risking that amount of isk in a paper ship would equally kick butts if they were to replace their nanos with faction battleships and caps, it's due to the conjunction SP/isk/experience. Do you really believe that people used to risk that amount of isk in PvP will resort to plain T2 fits after a nanonerf ?
All what nanowhiners will achieve is to turn EvE into an even slower & boring game as it is atm. And sorry, live is short, I don't have time to log in and spend hours hoping to have a bit of fun, specially when I'm paying for it.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:14:00 -
[363]
Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 10:16:30 Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 10:14:28 They nerfed the Myrmidon that used to use 5 heavy drones. Do they Nerf your nano ship and you will fly it like it was supposto be flown, So get over it. or quit, which is what you should do anyways.
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stagz
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:18:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Lusian your saying that a ship heavier then an intercepor can fly faster ?
think about that.
A vaga has exceptional as fare as cruiser classes go. the fastes cruiser to enter the game. generates more speed per ton then any other cruiser class. and that makes it deadly.
have you ever flown one? i doubt that, and if you have it would be fair to say you haven't killed anything in it.
A VAGABOND IS NOT DEADLY WHEN ITS GOING FAST!!!! YOU CANT HIT ANYTHING WHEN YOUR MOVING QUICKLY!! VAGA AT SPEED = NO DPS HOW IS THAT DEADLY?
seriously, to do any damage you need to get in close and go slow. which makes it more vulnerable than any other ship in its class. sure it can go quick, but to actually hurt you it runs a high risk of getting neuted and dieing or tackled by one of your allies.
if you're not a nub and can fit a ship a vaga shouldnt worry you unless you are a lone battle cruiser, and why the hell should a t1 BC be able to solo a T2 cruiser which costs triple to buy and fit...
vagas sacrifice speed for dps and tank, with out speed what good are they? wtf is anyone going to do with a slow untanked ship which cant deal out decent damage...
think about that....
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:22:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Lusian Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 10:16:30 Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 10:14:28 They nerfed the Myrmidon that used to use 5 heavy drones. Do they Nerf your nano ship and you will fly it like it was supposto be flown, So get over it. or quit, which is what you should do anyways.
Ah, here we have another genius. Comparing a nerf to the drone bay of a single ship to a nerf which will affect a multitude of ships all races included.
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Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:33:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Berious At least now they can't pretend the CSM experiment was anything but smoke up our ass when 2:1 vote against a nanonerf with a big turnout and it's back anyway.
2:1 is actually a pretty damning number, given that people will often shout loudly when they're AGAINST something, but will stay silent when they AGREE with something.
I love the salty tears when people have their I-Win buttons taken away
You must work for the election board in Florida.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:39:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Lusian Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 10:16:30 Edited by: Lusian on 09/10/2008 10:14:28 They nerfed the Myrmidon that used to use 5 heavy drones. Do they Nerf your nano ship and you will fly it like it was supposto be flown, So get over it. or quit, which is what you should do anyways.
personaly i dont think that should have been nerfed. but it was a bit imbalanced. the big difference between that and this is it was a nerf to one ship because it was more powerful than other ships in its class. now this on the other hand is a nerf to like everything speedy. and there is no imbalance in this. just people who dont want to take the time to do what it takes to pop the uber nanos out there ------------------------------------------------
Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Hagan Sirius
Gallente Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:40:00 -
[368]
Common nano T2 fitted or partially faction cannot reach speed where it is invulnerable, still can be popped. Yes here exist some really expensive stuff what make this one fast as hell, but in that speed is hard to hit something or pop (well industrials are still weak and they will be). And still sword is on top of your head, Rapier will come and say goodbye. And when some bigger nano gang will arrive - its same like big blob of BSes - alone You dont have a chance to survive against that organized thing so who cares. Make webbers scripted, or polys bit weaker, but slowing down everything will bring alot of sideeffects. Speed is also part of tank cost armor and resistances, make some T2 missiles more usefull, or whatever, but dont nerf speed at all. For people who whinning on speed - did You hear about overloading, or cooperation in gangs, setting roles for gangmembers? I also dont like Caldari nasty strong shield tank or falcon ECM power and what I must live with that. Make a exact changes or what You need but no complete speed nerf, it will break one part of fun in this game.
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Alex MakBlack
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:48:00 -
[369]
Minmatare have only speed. They havnt good dps and range weapon, and have only weakest tank. If you nerf speed minmatare as race will be gone at all.
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Teclador
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.09 10:55:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Cordial Ripper
b. everyone complains about missiles always hiting the target (even me) and until now speed was the only thing that could make u survive it.
Use f.... defenders, so you want be hit so bad =) Don't change anything on missiles, they are as good and as week as they are.
Change other issues 1st, they are even more needet as the speed patching.
1. POS management and access rights. (special for alliances) 2. Corp management and access rights. 3. Server Load Ballancing on large Fleet Battles or on large System populations.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:05:00 -
[371]
Quote: Ah, here we have another genius. Comparing a nerf to the drone bay of a single ship to a nerf which will affect a multitude of ships all races included
you miss understand. CCp will nerf your ship no matter how much you want to keep it the way it is. judging by your reaction i would sayyou would be one of the first to cry you reyeballs out then thorw your computer out because your worte nightmare nano nerf actually came true.
So please. we are all getting affected by ccp's decisions in the mattr of nerfing. hell i want the dps nerf taken off. but guess what, tough luck. so learn a nouther way to fly your ships.
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Scrutt5
Snuff inc
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:06:00 -
[372]
I would like to know how the dev team feel the markets will react to the proposed changes.
Surley the Vigilant and Vindicator will be the blaster boats of choice as the both have the additional mid that will be invaluable after the changes.
Duel MWD and AB fits, double web or both scram and disrupter are choices that will be considerably more viable on the faction models.
Cheers
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Cordial Ripper
Minmatar g guild Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.10.09 11:53:00 -
[373]
Edited by: Cordial Ripper on 09/10/2008 11:53:56
Originally by: Teclador
Use f.... defenders, so you want be hit so bad =) Don't change anything on missiles, they are as good and as week as they are.
not all ships have missile bay slots thus not all can use defenders. that's my point. for gunes there are 2 types on coutermeasures, 1 is trackign disruptors and 2 is jamming. if u are using missiles u can still hit using fof (even jammed) guns cant do that. thus missiels have a superior way of atack. if u want to be a true player stfu and play the game.
p.s. to know this i trained for all the races. so i know this for a fact not from what i heard.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:26:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Lusian you miss understand. CCp will nerf your ship no matter how much you want to keep it the way it is. judging by your reaction i would sayyou would be one of the first to cry you reyeballs out then thorw your computer out because your worte nightmare nano nerf actually came true.
So please. we are all getting affected by ccp's decisions in the mattr of nerfing. hell i want the dps nerf taken off. but guess what, tough luck. so learn a nouther way to fly your ships.
I frankly don't care that much for myself if nano gets nerfed. I've a wife, a business to run and plenty of stuff to do. Eve is really only a marginal activity which wouldn't affect me a iota if it were to disappear.
The problem here is multiple:
1) Pure & simple financial fraud: it's CCP alone which has seeded all the ships, items, implants and whatever along with their respective stats. It's not the players who have invented all this stuff, they merely put 2 and 2 together with what got handed to them. Speed has been a viable alternative for at least 4 ( F O U R ) years down the drain. And suddenly it's not ok ? I remember you that while it's a game and all the bla bla bla, the money CCP is cashing through monthly subs is not virtual at all. By nerfing speed, CCP is voiding months of player's patient training. It's not difficult to translate the training time spent by the average nanopilot to max out navigation and support skills in real financial costs. Then multiply this by the number of players who will be affected by a nanonerf.
2) EvE is already a slow game where without experience, isk & sp's you go nowhere. By nerfing nano, CCP hits young players twice: first by voiding their (until know legitime) playstyle, second by obliging them to reorient their set of skills since speed was one of the few abilities which could be successfully applied no matter the race involved. Veterans are the ones who are least harmed technically. When you enjoy 60 million sp's and up and good cross-training, there's many ways to solve a given problem. Those with 20 million end less are the ones who will suffer the most, ergo most of EvE player's.
3) CCP is not taking into account the reality of modern life, where TIME is a finite asset. A nanonerf linked with the current endemic blobbing makes that if, despite paying a sub, I can't play when I log on because either I don't have enough corpm8's on to blob ourselves, or they aren't doing at that precise time something I'm interested in, or are too far from my location, there's simply no reason for me to continue to get headaches. I shall log on for enjoying a game, not to continue to solve problems, thank you very much. I do that 10 hours/day and I get quite a bit of real money out of it. And undocking solo in a conventional fit just translates into playing lottery each time you jump, unless you use two accounts in order to scout ahead. Now for playing lottery I've way better alternatives in real life, and mind you, at least I can also get some real money out of it instead of being certain to just loose my time and pixels.
4) As always, CCP is approaching what they identify as a problem by the least efficient angle. Nanowhiners complain that they can't kill nanos (which in itself already tantamount to the admission of utter incompetency). Why not just fix the explosion velocity of these damn missiles and maybe make webs somewhat better in order to help the braindead segment of EvE's community ? To me, the only logical explanation for CCP's attitude is that technically they farted higher than their butt and have a game engine which can hardly cope with the items they have implemented ingame. But whatever the perspective, it's a loose-loose situation. Either they don't respect player's time and resources, either they did not have a clue what they were doing with their game during all those years. In both cases I'm not inclined to continue to support an entity showing such traits.
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Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:40:00 -
[375]
^^ Semkhet. You nailed it.
I'm pretty much in the same position as you. Family, business, etc. Eve is supposed be decompression for me, but for all the points you mention, it is just frustrating. I'm likely moving on. I like(d) the game, but it's not important to me in the least and I have little time to play as it is. Like in business, when you see your investments going bad, you get out and invest elsewhere. ---- Train more. Whine less.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:42:00 -
[376]
Edited by: lebrata on 09/10/2008 12:43:59
Ship classes made pointless for gang pvp with this nerf are:-
Frigate class (all) - Cannot speed tank post nerf so will be melted by hostile gangs in the first volley.
Cruisers and Hacs - Out performed in every relevant way by BC and BS after the nerf.
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Ratio Legis
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:51:00 -
[377]
The most serious problem I see with all those changes is that under the proposed rules it will be very difficult to stop ships reapproaching a gate they just jumped through - practically impossible to do with a single tackler. The answer we were given to that concern - that CCP are contemplating to remove stacking penalty on webs - will ultimately lead to the impossibility to conduct solo combat in any form short of belt ganking.
They are aiming to give more viable choices for mid slots of pvp ships, yet at the same time we will be required to fit multiple webs or a combination of webs, short and long range scrams to just reliably tackle ships at gates, taking up more slots than are needed at the moment - that, or basically require blob camps cause small outfits won't be able to catch anything anyway. Oh, and the idea that marauders will be the best webbers in the game - that's a brilliant notion, sell your huginns and rapiers to buy T2 BS and tackle away. Or just stick 4 webs on that rapier since they will not be stacking nerfed, and you still have the choice what to put in the last two, no? Oh wait you need a point and a speed mod too. Real variety for those 6 mids.
The other thing that was not addressed in a satisfactory way was the question what will minmatar as a race get in exchange for their lost advantage in mobility, since that is their single strong point at the moment. They cannot tank, they cannot do dps, have no racial ECM and are already the most skill intensive race - all of this at the moment balanced out by the fact they have the viable alternative of speed-tanking and hit and run tactics. When the latter 2 are gone - and they will be since all races' ships within a class will have very similar speed so there will be no real advantage to anybody here - what'll stop minnie ships from just plain sucking? Now I realize Eve is unique in that in time it will balance itself out cause people will train up whatever is usable at the moment, but that is not exactly what I'd call a satisfactory solution.
Oh, and the moment nano disappears from game, I can tell you right out what's getting the shaft next - logistics and ECM. They will be essentially uncounterable, except with more ECM and logistics.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:52:00 -
[378]
Have all of you lost your eardrums or something?
Give the live dev blog another listen
It doesnt sound like they're about to break their baby that is EVE. Heck, they're trying to FIX it actually, thanks to you lot whoever has HG snakes and broke the physics engine by going above 8000m/s. -
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Aramith
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:54:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Semkhet 1) Pure & simple financial fraud: it's CCP alone which has seeded all the ships, items, implants and whatever along with their respective stats. It's not the players who have invented all this stuff, they merely put 2 and 2 together with what got handed to them. Speed has been a viable alternative for at least 4 ( F O U R ) years down the drain. And suddenly it's not ok ? I remember you that while it's a game and all the bla bla bla, the money CCP is cashing through monthly subs is not virtual at all. By nerfing speed, CCP is voiding months of player's patient training. It's not difficult to translate the training time spent by the average nanopilot to max out navigation and support skills in real financial costs. Then multiply this by the number of players who will be affected by a nanonerf.
Umm, CCP have been going after extreme speed fittings for a long time.
When i first started playing the fitting of choice was a dual MWD Raven with torpedos. That way you fly in at your target with insane speed while launching torps so that by the time you reached the target they were hit by 12, 18, or even 24 torps at the same time. Once that became the cookie cutter fleet set-up that got nerfed as that is not how the Devs intended the players to fit thier ships and play.
Now we have the current nano-craze where nearly everything needs to be Nano-fit in order to be remotely useful. People even Nano fit Titans for crying out loud. if the previous example is anything, then again players have gravitated towards fittings that are beyond what CCP intended. Therefore they will fix it. You may call it a legitimate play style but in the grand scheme i bet CCP sees it as abuse of a game mechanic that needs to be fixed.
CCP fixing speed problems is not new. CCP fixing set-ups that are beyond the scope of what they intended is not new. If they did not care about speed or ships being ouside what was intended, we would still fit cruise missiles on any ship class, we would still have dual MWD fit ships (now with nanos too), and WCS would never have recieved thier nerfs so that everyone can go really fast and escape from any fight and the only people that would lose ships in any real quantity would be those that do not jump on the speed-***** bandwagon.
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Hamma Kavula
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Posted - 2008.10.09 12:59:00 -
[380]
Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it.
Discuss!
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Hamma Kavula
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Posted - 2008.10.09 13:03:00 -
[381]
And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang.
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Koikarmin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.09 13:08:00 -
[382]
Edited by: Koikarmin on 09/10/2008 13:11:57 Hi to everyone, after reading all 15 pages I think I might have found a solution to the problem, but I would like everyone to add to this solution.
1 - Lower the max speed that is possible with all forms of speed features that are available, to an ammount that the server calculations can handle.
2 - Make warp scramblers and webifyers able to use scripts so that if you have the right scripts at hand you will be able to web and scramble nano ships, but maybe those scripts should also have a disadvantage of some sort, I am not shure what.
3 - Balance guns, missiles and lasers so that it dosn't matter which ones you use they should all be just as affective against nanos, and maybe make new scripts for the tracking computer, to make them more effective. The main issue is with the short range blasters, which if you can't get within range then you won't be doing alot of damage. Something has to change with the blasters, not sure what though.
4 - Nanos should also have an advantage ofcourse, it should in some way be equally balanced if you have a ship with the right tools fitted agains a nano and a nano equiped with the counter parts of that ship. (if that makes any sence)
I have read that to be the ultimate speed freak you need to invest both time and isk into implants, modules, and skills, which comes to a XX billion ammount of isk, and if people are willing to use that much to move so fast they should ofcourse get the upper end advantage, but it should not make them invulnerable.
I would like people in this forum to work together to find a good solution to the main problem which is that CCP's server cant handle the calculations when moving at such high speed, or at least that is what I understood (and don't come with the stupid solution of... they should get a better server)
I think if we worked together at setting up a good plan of acction we could work things out for the better of all of us.
I personally think that it should be the modules that you have chosen to fit to your ship, and skills, that should determin how succesfull you are in a pvp fight, and not the ammount of isk you have.
I would like to see more modules using scripts, and more script types, so that you have more options in the way you can tackle pvp imbalances. If every weapon module had its counter part then I think the balance would be the persons way of fitting the ship that would determin the success of the battle, and not the skills or implants, which would make even pretty new players have a chance if they work together, and it would also make skilled players already have an advantage, which I think is only fair.
Please post your suggestions, and views on this post. I hope that if we could come up with a solution, then CCP could test it and all this would be over and done with alot quicker, so they can get back to fixing bugs, and evolving this game, instead of trying to kill it.
My motto is: We pay for it, We should get a voice CCP's motto should be: You pay for it, we listen to your ideas.
CCP: you should listne to your gaming family as we are the ones putting bread on your table, and we all want this game to grow and be better, and more fair.
With all regards Koikarmin JUDGE |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.09 13:35:00 -
[383]
Edited by: Murina on 09/10/2008 13:44:59
Q1. Whats the status of changes.
A. Dunno we are busy but they maybe on multi in a week and sisi on the next expansion..
Q2. Considering how much you need to change because of how much this nerf breaks will you be staggering the changes?.
A. No (as it will illustrate how much it sucks).
Q3. Will speed fitted interceptors be able to out rum warrior II's or small missiles.
A. NO (so f1-f8 missile spam and drone swarms ftw).
Q4. Will a ship be able to re-approach a gate if it jumps into a camp.
A. NO (your totally f*cked and have no chance if you jump into a camped gate, so bring a blob and jump or do not jump and logoff for the night).
Q5. Will weapons be changed so they are not overpowered.
A. They will be changed but they will still hit and cause dmg (sig radius dependent) so blob and missile spam ftw.
Q6. The first patch sucked balls so you pulled it off sisi, what are you gonna change.
A. Missile dmg formula and agility.
Q7. How will web bonuses on marauder's be kept.
A. We are gonna increase the bonus but they will still be weaker.
Q8. What is gonna change to make mwd a non essential module in pvp.
A. Afterburners and scram changes are gonna be better than mwd we think.......
Q9. Why make all ships slower instead of just slowing the ultra fast ones.
A. T2 being better than T1 and ppl not wanting to tackle or work to kill stuff.
Q10. You can disrupt guns but defenders suck and also missile ships get FOF, what you gonna do about that.
A. Fix defenders...perhaps.
Q11. Why not boost existing anti-speed modules instead of nerfing the crap out of everything related to speed.
A. Its easier to swing the nerf bat and see if we can fix the problems that it causes.
Q12. why not just change the extreme speeds instead of screwing over the entire game.
A. We think its easier to nerf everything then try to fix the problems that causes than to fix the real problem.
Q13. med slot mods that get 2 effects were considered too powerful and yet you introduce a scram with two effects..why.
A. Nobody was using the scram so we thought we would make it overpowered.
Q14. What will happen to the clones with implants now the slots are moved.
A. They will be unplugged and dropped in your cargo or hangar.
Q15. How will small roaming gangs avoid getting blobbed in 0.0 without speed.
A. erm erm dunno but we are gonna boost black ops ships......maybe.
Q16. Will AF's be any good after this patch.
A. I think so cos the speed changes will allow smaller ships to get in close and use transversal to speed tank guns and missiles (missiles with transversal issues??? lol). Did somebody forget that if you at 0km on one ship your at the perfect range for others in his gang?.
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Ratio Legis
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:10:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Murina
Q4. Will a ship be able to re-approach a gate if it jumps into a camp.
A. NO (your totally f*cked and have no chance if you jump into a camped gate, so bring a blob and jump or do not jump and logoff for the night).
You didn't get the question OR the answer right. The concern is that with the nerfed webs ships will actually be able to reapproach much more easily than now, in some cases making it impossible to stop at all. And the answer went something like "yeah we know that's a problem, one solution we have in mind is to remove stacking penalty on webs" - which admittedly is not a good option, since it substitutes the word "impossible" with "requiring a blob of webbers" in the previous sentence.
How about making webs' effect based on sig radius instead? Something along the lines of a MWD-ing BC getting close to the same effect as now, while a frigate would get those 50-60% that the new webs work for anyway? Or, if sig radius is not a good distinction by itself, make the effect a function of speed AND radius - again with the goal of a MWD-ing BC getting close to 90% speed penalty, a MWD-ing frig - about 60-70, and a non-speed-modded frig getting 50-60?
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:20:00 -
[385]
Looking forward to this blobbing buff.
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Koikarmin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:32:00 -
[386]
Edited by: Koikarmin on 09/10/2008 14:34:14 Edited by: Koikarmin on 09/10/2008 14:32:25 So is this whole forum just a f......g waste of time or what, where are the members of CCP to write out a nice dev blog for us to discuss, instead of all this unknowing bollacht. No one knows anything about their actuall plans or the ideas, and the live dev blog was a total Epic Fail, what tha hell can you use any of the answers or the questions for if the whole matter of speed balancing isn't explained properly to begin with.
I could just make a blog saying: agility deminishment, and let people figure that out for themselves. JUDGE |
Hamma Kavula
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Posted - 2008.10.09 14:44:00 -
[387]
Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it. And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang.
Discuss!
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momotaro
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.10.09 15:12:00 -
[388]
i didnt have the patience anymore after the page 8, so maybe this has popped b4.
in sniping fleets how would an interceptor catch a bs, i could catch even in my slow ranis a bs at 120km if he was not very carefull. all they talked was about speed tanking, but how about speed takling, how is flying a cepter to catch a far bs good anymore?
why don't they do something about staking modules on a 12k/s caldari cepter? or minmatar hac.. maybe something like "because of the alloys, electronics and layout of the hull from witch the t2 variant has emerged, at extreme speed the engine housing reaches a limit and the integrity of the vessel can be compromised" and so nerf in ranges of speeds, like 1-2000 m/s current nerf. 2001-4000 m/s higher nerf and 4001-8000 m/s extreme nerf and so on. so almost no ship can get over 8000m/s. this can be calculated at fitting screen and the nerf in modules cand be arranged different for the classes of ships. so a snake and such fitted ship cand go almost 8000 m/s and maybe a t2 fitted one would cap somewhere in the 5000 m/s range. (by nerf at 8000m/s an ideea is "engines produce massive ammounts of heat and radiation that makes overloading modules a hazard" and so overloading your mwd would last 3 times less than now, so you could get maybe 1 run of the bastard before it crashes. also that could be done for all modules. even make weapon mounts fire less often or weaker because of the radiation)
with this you can choose if you want to make a very fast ship but slightly innefective or a slower one but fully functional. and also give players a lot more options to fiddle with, we all like that about eve. instead they are putting us in a new box and make blobs viable again.
sorry about my english, i hope you understand my ideeas. ******** The nail that stands out, gets hammered.
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Antdung
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Posted - 2008.10.09 15:23:00 -
[389]
Q15. How will small roaming gangs avoid getting blobbed in 0.0 without speed.
A. erm erm dunno but we are gonna boost black ops ships......maybe. (dunno so il mumble stuff about PVP in eve 4 years ago before speed, when we had a tiny percentage of the player base and no jump bridges).
The fact that CCP think a Black opps improvement will keep skirmish warfare alive in ANY form really does show me little they have reviewed the entire issue on speed balance and how deluded they actually are.
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BFish
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Posted - 2008.10.09 15:28:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Killer Rasta
Screw nano pilots, you're ruining the English language. Learn to type like a civilised person and maybe I won't go tl;dr all over your face.
MAYBE THIS WILL SOUND LIKE BIG SUPRISE TO YOU,BUT I HAVE TO INFORM YOU THAT THERE IS A BIG WORLD OUT THERE AND NOT ALL HUMAS ON PLANET DO HAVE ENGLISH AS THAIR FIRST LAUNGUAGE.SO WHILE THIS PLANET IS FULL OF DUMBAS..... AS YOU ARE,THAT DO ESPECT THAT ALL HUMANS DO SPEAK AND WRITE PROPERLY ENGLISH,IT IS GOING TO BE WORLD FULL OF IGNORENC. IM MORE THAN HAPPY WHITH MY ENGLISH,NOW LEEME SEE HOW DO U SPEAK AND WRITE CROATIAN,SPANISH OR ITALIAN MR.GREAT GRAMMA MAN.
You seem to have misunderstood me. I was referring to your love of caps lock, and your rage-fuled rant at CCP with, IMO, silly things like your "protest" etc. When I said talk like a civilised person I was requesting that you explain to CCP your concerns with what they have said or done, instead of exaggerating made up facts, having permanent caps lock and just generally being immature about it.
Sorry if you don't like it but if you want people to take you seriously you should explain without accusation, rather than accuse with immaturity.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.10.09 16:12:00 -
[391]
Why the hell were blasters NOT ADDRESSED? FAIL CCP! ****ING FAIL! ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) Pirate Coalition (Yar?) |
Hamma Kavula
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Posted - 2008.10.09 16:32:00 -
[392]
The ultimate Solution!!!!!!one111111 read it ffs
Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it. And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang.
Discuss!
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.09 16:45:00 -
[393]
Oh well, time to play something else I guess.
Clearly CCP just wants static blob warfare (which everyone except CCP knows breaks Eve). The answers in the blog are clear to anyone that knows PVP.
Too bad, small gangs / limited warfare is fun for all, and honestly the only reason I play :(
Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !! |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.09 16:46:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Hamma Kavula The ultimate Solution!!!!!!one111111 read it ffs
Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it. And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang. Discuss!
Noone is discussin since this is not "ideas thread", but what is turning into one more pleet to CCP to reconsider what they are doing and how they are doing it. CCP won't accept such ideas, since are given more then enough job explaining what they are doing, and we are yet to see a reasonable and inteligent answer to the real issues adressed by "anty-nerf" guys.
But thing that crossed meh mind when reading your idea is a low slot engine module that, when activated, would perform such a jump. Would be sweet. --------- phew phew
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momotaro
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.10.09 17:12:00 -
[395]
Hul'ka i think ppl are giving ideas because apparently devs were kinda mumbling responses, its pointless to do a live dev blog if you don't have the answers for questions that we're taken from here. even worse if the questions asked we're scripted.
someone said that devs nerf bat the whole thing and fix stuff after, well i think that extreme speed on some ships is a thing that need fixing. you don't scrap a whole car project because the rubber fittings in the rearview mirror are the wrong color.
i think that from 40 000 players sometimes online must come 1 with a solution for this, CCP just needs to filter these ideas, combine them in a way that balances things. they don't even have to tell a soul where the inspiration come from. the change with the implants was very good, why not implement only that for the beginning and go from there. ******** The nail that stands out, gets hammered.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.09 17:37:00 -
[396]
Originally by: momotaro Edited by: momotaro on 09/10/2008 17:18:18 Hul'ka i think ppl are giving ideas because apparently devs were kinda mumbling responses, its pointless to do a live dev blog if you don't have the answers for questions that we're taken from here. even worse if the questions asked we're scripted.
someone said that devs nerf bat the whole thing and fix stuff after, well i think that extreme speed on some ships is a thing that need fixing. you don't scrap a whole car project because the rubber fittings in the rearview mirror are the wrong color.
i think that from 40 000 players sometimes online must come 1 with a solution for this, CCP just needs to filter these ideas, combine them in a way that balances things. they don't even have to tell a soul where the inspiration come from. the change with the implants was very good, why not implement only that for the beginning and go from there.
"Clearly CCP just wants static blob warfare (which everyone except CCP knows breaks Eve). The answers in the blog are clear to anyone that knows PVP.
Too bad, small gangs / limited warfare is fun for all, and honestly the only reason I play :(" i agree completely.
I've seen tons of ideas, some of them ware really good and developed. None of those ideas ware accepted. It's like they don't even want to consider an option this whole concept is wrong.
To repeat what I and almost every anty-nerf" guy have said: Yea, I agree speeds on some ships are overpowered when fitted for speed. Those are that ships that can avoid most (rerelly all) of the damage and still make full damage to their targets. Nerf ludicrus speeds that comes from stacking of high end modules/implants/commands by nerfing those modules/implants/commands, not by killing guerrilla warfare. No, Covert ops gangs are not suitable viable guerrilla warfare tactics for, oh so many reasons!
And consider that by nerfing missiles you'll be nerfing every caldari carebear who will come after you when they realise what you have done. And they will come in numbers!
After all this time howcome CCP doesn't realise they are opening a Pandoras box and cereating so many problems in a situation where solution was so simple.... It's beyond me... --------- phew phew
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.09 17:38:00 -
[397]
Originally by: HotSeat Oh well, time to play something else I guess.
Clearly CCP just wants static blob warfare (which everyone except CCP knows breaks Eve). The answers in the blog are clear to anyone that knows PVP.
Too bad, small gangs / limited warfare is fun for all, and honestly the only reason I play :(
Same here. That a guy CCP has supposedly put in charge to "look at speed" can even consider that skirmish warfare should resort to the use of Black Ops is simply depressing and raise questions about CCP's selection process in human resources...
The bottom point CCP should understand for PvP'ers is this:
A) Player pay a sub, mostly in the attempt to have fun. B) When player logs in, he wants to take a ship, undock and do whatever business please him in every region of space, with or WITHOUT his merry mates.
Instead what we will get with the nanonerf is:
A) Player pay a sub, mostly to enrich CCP and marginally to get fun. B) When player logs in, he can take a ship, undock and do whatever business please him, but unless he does it together with the highest amount of merry mates, he will get popped at the next camp.
Since I play this game and with the number of accounts I subscribed, I must have given to CCP close to 2000 Ç to date. Looking at EvE's evolution (regression IMHO), it looks to me unprobable that this game will ever regain the appeal it had in 2005/2006, and I see less reason to maintain my subs after listening to that dev blog. Let's get real here, do you think that any sane recruiter would hire peeps who can't even talk about the work they're paid for ?
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.09 18:34:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Have all of you lost your eardrums or something?
Give the live dev blog another listen
It doesnt sound like they're about to break their baby that is EVE. Heck, they're trying to FIX it actually, thanks to you lot whoever has HG snakes and broke the physics engine by going above 8000m/s.
yea because people who pay absolutely ******ed amounts of money setting up ships to do these crazy stunts can do them we need to nerf the whole dam game rite?
a full deadspace/officer nano with a HG snake set is usually in the 2-4 billion isk range ie Costs a ton of money and then they are going to balance the entire game around people do this rather then just change these items a bit? yea that makes a lot of sense, its a very CCP answer to this kind of problems just changed a whole pile of crap hope it comes out for the best.
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KurB
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Posted - 2008.10.09 18:36:00 -
[399]
Originally by: JVol
null null This may come as a surprise to those of you who just joined the community in the last 1.5 -2 years.. But.. Eve was fun and VERY playable BEFORE nanos were a glimmer in CCP's eye. Hacs were all over and feared, blobs were present ( not a new feature ) and you learned to use a scout or your scanner, or to die like a man. Eve will be fine when nanos are gone, and they WILL BE GONE, they are broke.
True pvpers will adapt and be just as deadly, altho they will have to learn to pick targets cause running wont be an option 95% of the time as it is now.
Says it all, whiners take note. Eve will still be the best game out there. Isk + training should'nt = 0.0 damage, EVER!! It dosent apply to BILLIONS spent on sheild /armor tanking implant and modual, shouldnt apply to speed as it does atm..
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 18:51:00 -
[400]
i am totally against this nerf.
the only reason you should nerf something is if it provides a unfair advantage which the nanos do not have. people are saying ridiculous things like nanos can easily go faster than interceptors but thats total crap.
correct me if im wrong but from what i see here most people dont want this nerf to take place. we are the paying customers shouldn't the game stay how it is if the majority of its players see nothing wrong with it?
if you say that the reason it seems most of us don't want the nerf is the fact that the people wanting it stay quiet while we who appose it make all the noise then you are stupid. if you want the nerf but arnt willing to stick up for what you want and all you can do is whine to ccp behind a curten the you don't deserve to get what you want.
i really think that it should be held to vote. ------------------------------------------------
Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 19:20:00 -
[401]
Dear Lusian:
Just when i was thinking ppl coulnt be any more imbecil whiners i found you.
Your arguments perfectly embody the arguments of all those nanobiotches who can play sh8t and want to justify they nerdiness by crying HAX!!
You obviusly dont know shit about nano ships, you just know that you cant kill them cose your stupid, there fore ill try to educate you in the subject... even if i know its imposible to educate a monkey like you.
First Complain: Nano ships cant be caught!! waahhhh!! waaaahhh!! HAXORDS! Answer: Well of course they are hard to be caught... behind the nanoship is an experienced pilot who had used those ships from starters and know them like the palm of his hand... he knows when to engage how to move how to bump when to disengage etc etc... either you learn that or you go broke bcos NANO SHIPS ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.
Second Complain: Nanoships go faster than my frigate!!! WHAAA! WHAAAA! Answer: Well of course they go fast!! If my vaga does 9k and your intie does 6k its because i got a set of implants/rigs/named items not to mention MAXED OUT NAVIGATION SKILLS. As an example, if i do 9k in the vagabond, and i switch for an interceptor... THEN ILL DO 12k, SIMPLE AINT IT?. How in the freaking name of jesus you want your sheety 3 million interceptor with no rigs no experienced pilot to go faster than my 1 billion vagabond with my implants rigs and maxed skills? explain pls?
Third Complain: Nanoships killed meh!! wahhh!! wahhh!! he orbited me doing 12k a second!! hax hax!! Answer: Well of course this aint possible!! cose it dosnt happen!! you cant hit shiet while at speed!! have you even flown a vaga before??? you need to orbit and if you have the mwd on you wont be abble to hit nothing... you need to slow down to do damage.
Fourth Complain: Nanoships cant be killed!!!! waaahhh wahhhhh!! nerf nerf!! Answer: This just show what an imbecil you and your friends are... have you heard of rapiers? hughin much?? neutralizers??? a nano ship without capacitor is a dead duck.... but of course you cant know of this things... cose you want your shiety tier one ships to be abble to do as t2 ships do... and with cheap modules.
To resume... you sir... you are an imbecil... now leave the forums, we dont want you here anymore. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.09 19:36:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Black Necris Dear Lusian:
Just when i was thinking ppl coulnt be any more imbecil whiners i found you.
Your arguments perfectly embody the arguments of all those nanobiotches who can play sh8t and want to justify they nerdiness by crying HAX!!
You obviusly dont know shit about nano ships, you just know that you cant kill them cose your stupid, there fore ill try to educate you in the subject... even if i know its imposible to educate a monkey like you.
First Complain: Nano ships cant be caught!! waahhhh!! waaaahhh!! HAXORDS! Answer: Well of course they are hard to be caught... behind the nanoship is an experienced pilot who had used those ships from starters and know them like the palm of his hand... he knows when to engage how to move how to bump when to disengage etc etc... either you learn that or you go broke bcos NANO SHIPS ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.
Second Complain: Nanoships go faster than my frigate!!! WHAAA! WHAAAA! Answer: Well of course they go fast!! If my vaga does 9k and your intie does 6k its because i got a set of implants/rigs/named items not to mention MAXED OUT NAVIGATION SKILLS. As an example, if i do 9k in the vagabond, and i switch for an interceptor... THEN ILL DO 12k, SIMPLE AINT IT?. How in the freaking name of jesus you want your sheety 3 million interceptor with no rigs no experienced pilot to go faster than my 1 billion vagabond with my implants rigs and maxed skills? explain pls?
Third Complain: Nanoships killed meh!! wahhh!! wahhh!! he orbited me doing 12k a second!! hax hax!! Answer: Well of course this aint possible!! cose it dosnt happen!! you cant hit shiet while at speed!! have you even flown a vaga before??? you need to orbit and if you have the mwd on you wont be abble to hit nothing... you need to slow down to do damage.
Fourth Complain: Nanoships cant be killed!!!! waaahhh wahhhhh!! nerf nerf!! Answer: This just show what an imbecil you and your friends are... have you heard of rapiers? hughin much?? neutralizers??? a nano ship without capacitor is a dead duck.... but of course you cant know of this things... cose you want your shiety tier one ships to be abble to do as t2 ships do... and with cheap modules.
To resume... you sir... you are an imbecil... now leave the forums, we dont want you here anymore.
/signed.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.09 19:45:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Black Necris Dear Lusian:
Just when i was thinking ppl coulnt be any more imbecil whiners i found you.
Your arguments perfectly embody the arguments of all those nanobiotches who can play sh8t and want to justify they nerdiness by crying HAX!!
You obviusly dont know shit about nano ships, you just know that you cant kill them cose your stupid, there fore ill try to educate you in the subject... even if i know its imposible to educate a monkey like you.
First Complain: Nano ships cant be caught!! waahhhh!! waaaahhh!! HAXORDS! Answer: Well of course they are hard to be caught... behind the nanoship is an experienced pilot who had used those ships from starters and know them like the palm of his hand... he knows when to engage how to move how to bump when to disengage etc etc... either you learn that or you go broke bcos NANO SHIPS ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.
Second Complain: Nanoships go faster than my frigate!!! WHAAA! WHAAAA! Answer: Well of course they go fast!! If my vaga does 9k and your intie does 6k its because i got a set of implants/rigs/named items not to mention MAXED OUT NAVIGATION SKILLS. As an example, if i do 9k in the vagabond, and i switch for an interceptor... THEN ILL DO 12k, SIMPLE AINT IT?. How in the freaking name of jesus you want your sheety 3 million interceptor with no rigs no experienced pilot to go faster than my 1 billion vagabond with my implants rigs and maxed skills? explain pls?
Third Complain: Nanoships killed meh!! wahhh!! wahhh!! he orbited me doing 12k a second!! hax hax!! Answer: Well of course this aint possible!! cose it dosnt happen!! you cant hit shiet while at speed!! have you even flown a vaga before??? you need to orbit and if you have the mwd on you wont be abble to hit nothing... you need to slow down to do damage.
Fourth Complain: Nanoships cant be killed!!!! waaahhh wahhhhh!! nerf nerf!! Answer: This just show what an imbecil you and your friends are... have you heard of rapiers? hughin much?? neutralizers??? a nano ship without capacitor is a dead duck.... but of course you cant know of this things... cose you want your shiety tier one ships to be abble to do as t2 ships do... and with cheap modules.
To resume... you sir... you are an imbecil... now leave the forums, we dont want you here anymore.
I tried to explain all this before, but you took it and made it more readable. <3 Almost makes me feel bad for killing an einherjar miner in lowsec...but then again you guys did respond w/ hyena's and rapiers and ate my cap all to hell...killed a lg snaked 9km/s vagabond. I couldn't do **** against you guys..and it was fun as hell.
Here here Black Necris. OMG YOU KILLED MY VAGA NERF ALL YOUR NEUTS AND WEBSHIPS
/signed
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 20:07:00 -
[404]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Black Necris Dear Lusian:
Just when i was thinking ppl coulnt be any more imbecil whiners i found you.
Your arguments perfectly embody the arguments of all those nanobiotches who can play sh8t and want to justify they nerdiness by crying HAX!!
You obviusly dont know shit about nano ships, you just know that you cant kill them cose your stupid, there fore ill try to educate you in the subject... even if i know its imposible to educate a monkey like you.
First Complain: Nano ships cant be caught!! waahhhh!! waaaahhh!! HAXORDS! Answer: Well of course they are hard to be caught... behind the nanoship is an experienced pilot who had used those ships from starters and know them like the palm of his hand... he knows when to engage how to move how to bump when to disengage etc etc... either you learn that or you go broke bcos NANO SHIPS ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.
Second Complain: Nanoships go faster than my frigate!!! WHAAA! WHAAAA! Answer: Well of course they go fast!! If my vaga does 9k and your intie does 6k its because i got a set of implants/rigs/named items not to mention MAXED OUT NAVIGATION SKILLS. As an example, if i do 9k in the vagabond, and i switch for an interceptor... THEN ILL DO 12k, SIMPLE AINT IT?. How in the freaking name of jesus you want your sheety 3 million interceptor with no rigs no experienced pilot to go faster than my 1 billion vagabond with my implants rigs and maxed skills? explain pls?
Third Complain: Nanoships killed meh!! wahhh!! wahhh!! he orbited me doing 12k a second!! hax hax!! Answer: Well of course this aint possible!! cose it dosnt happen!! you cant hit shiet while at speed!! have you even flown a vaga before??? you need to orbit and if you have the mwd on you wont be abble to hit nothing... you need to slow down to do damage.
Fourth Complain: Nanoships cant be killed!!!! waaahhh wahhhhh!! nerf nerf!! Answer: This just show what an imbecil you and your friends are... have you heard of rapiers? hughin much?? neutralizers??? a nano ship without capacitor is a dead duck.... but of course you cant know of this things... cose you want your shiety tier one ships to be abble to do as t2 ships do... and with cheap modules.
To resume... you sir... you are an imbecil... now leave the forums, we dont want you here anymore.
/signed.
/signed. ------------------------------------------------
Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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dsfyxdg23 32
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Posted - 2008.10.09 20:43:00 -
[405]
Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it. And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang.
Discuss!
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momotaro
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.10.09 20:53:00 -
[406]
Originally by: dsfyxdg23 32 Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it. And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang.
Discuss!
dude fraking grow up. if you use some weird arse char to say it more than once is not the answer. ******** The nail that stands out, gets hammered.
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.09 21:36:00 -
[407]
Originally by: dsfyxdg23 32 Introduce micro-jumps. Jumping into any given direction you are aligned to. minimum range is 100km, maximum is 1000km. Add some engine damage, similar to overheating (or maybe extreme cap usage) to prevent ppl from constantly jumping around and there u go. This wouldnt nerf the nanos, but allow the rest of us to counter them. And most important this would increase the tactical diversity of this game by far. I would really appreciate it. And if ur just working on it, maybe introduce tracking warheads, which allow u to warp to a once hit target as if it was in your gang.
Discuss!
Discuss what? you being an imbecil?
"but allow the rest of us to counter them" maybe you cant read or you are mentally impaired. NANO SHIPS ARE NOT INVINSIBLE!! what is more likely to be true? than the ships are overpowered? or that you are stupid and cant find a way to counter them.
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Mad Proffesor
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Posted - 2008.10.09 21:45:00 -
[408]
I believe that it is a very simple answer to the entire speed problem.
A CCP Dev create a character that can modestly fly all ships under BS and can use all the T2 equipment in a minimal capacity.
Use the cookie cutter setups and look at the speeds he can obtain.
Then level the playing field with each races ships reducing their mass boosting their stock speed or what ever it needs to be level for that ship class.
I agree that a BS shouldn't be able to outrun a cruiser but an interceptor should be able to out run anything.( give the inty's a break their in a dixie cup with a spitball shooter and a flimsy net) A HAC should actually be slower than a cruiser remember its a HEAVY assault cruiser. An assault frigate should be faster than a cruiser and so on and so on.
So many people in this game fall in love with a certain type or race of ship. And then they get accustomed to fitting it a particular way and when someone says its unfair, their passion takes over and they will defend it to the death even, if they deep down inside know the other guy is right.
A system wide nerf will not only destroy those ships badly needing improvement but will cause more problems with other things that don't need to be adjusted at this time.
Fix the ships first, then the modules, then do something about the interfaces, oh and one last thing...consider giving us the ability to remotely destroy jump clones and when you take a station to get rid of the jump clones people have in them that don't belong there.
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Xzanos
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.10.09 22:58:00 -
[409]
heavy assault ships= the heavy in the name has nothing to do with the ships weight.
its a heavy assault ship..
1. because assault ship was already taken as a name 2. because it is for assaulting larger targets (has more dps)
some ppl i swear ------------------------------------------------
Mess with the best.....Die like the rest.
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Aardvarki
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Posted - 2008.10.09 23:27:00 -
[410]
A simple speed cap would do the trick, why make it more complicated and cause unwanted side effects... |
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BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
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Posted - 2008.10.09 23:49:00 -
[411]
Cause they must justify the money CCP give to them :) They make gamemech who are going to create new disbalance, to work on it, and then make another ebil patch, who is going to create new disba... ect, ect. ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |
muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.10 00:07:00 -
[412]
Edited by: muffminer on 10/10/2008 00:32:58 Edited by: muffminer on 10/10/2008 00:20:48 Really CCP in a plea for you to come to some kind of realization of what your plans are going to do to many pilots in the game, a majority of which can't afford to run w/ even lg snakes. I've seen people make claims of "40km/s" vagas? lol..only 1 person said that but i've seen people talk about 15km/s20km/s.
Do you people even have your velocity tab on your overview? as far as i've seen it tells me exactly how fast someone is going and i watch it frequently as a sign of whether or not i can get too or get away from someone. the fastest cruiser sized vessel i've seen personally out of months of daily pvp engagements against mainly nano fleets is maybe 12km/s..with command bonuses + lg/hgomega mixes most likely. without bonuses i've seen interceptors from even the amarr doing 18K+.
My point is...it is likely very rare that you will see a lone vaga break 10k. If they are they spent alot of time paying for some high end snake implants and faction mods. And you can't gripe about someone getting in a fleet w/ a claymore or even a sleipnir..hell a hurricane w/ a command ship pilot in and using the ships bonuses.
On that note as far as the other races of the game, ishtar's i've seen standard around 5k-5700, sacrilidge running 3.8k-4500, and honestly haven't come across enough zealots or gallente hac's to say. these are without expensive imps as far as i can tell but i can't pilot the other races myself, for testing purposes i sometimes have corpmates setup their hacs to go as fast as possible with only their skills and fit.
Now, generally if people are running higher numbers than this..then they were smart to bring a skilled claymore pilot along, or feeling ballsy...as a rapier w/ duel web fit will easily stop any one of them in their tracks should they engage you. Try some 0.0 combat. The complaints against us that enjoy our skirmish boats haven't experienced how good it feels to drop a bubble on some nano to watch them get squeezed to death by the grips of a huginn or even a pair of interceptors or eas, or turn tail and run hiding. if they can get back to a gate before you lock them, well i would generally count them as scout and be prepared for his bigger larger friends by alerting people systems away to box them in.
Their mission is over. they got scared. Victory by forfeit.
Try it out..work a pilot from the ground up..t2, interceptor, interdictor, assult frigs (so you can fly a hac later)..then into hacs and recons.
Focus those skills to NOTHING but those ships in that order. max them out.
Then when they get ripped out from under you by all the people that just don't seem ot get situational warfare...see how you feel? There are going to be alot of paying customers affected by this. some of which might be charactors that have devoted nothing but skill training to this type of ganksquadishness. There are ships designed to catch them..if you don't fly one...get a friend that does. That's how free universe pvp works.
(edit) - Let's not forget battleships with a properly skilled pilot are capable of reaching near 200km with turrets or even (god forbid) cruise missiles. web a nano and watch it melt much? |
Reto
The Last Resort
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Posted - 2008.10.10 00:53:00 -
[413]
my biggest concern are bubbles.
i tested some regions in 0.0 today flying tru and counting bubbles on my way. i flew tru some pipes leading into 0.0 and i flew around regular 0.0 aswell. i used a noobship or a shuttle.
within an hour of flying (around 70 jumps in 0.0) i counted 7 medium mobile warp disruptors, 2 large mobile warp disruptors, 2 interdictors, 1 Heavy interdictor.
meaning you theoretically land in a bubble every 5.8 jumps. without a fast ship you will die in say every second camp meaning youll die 6 times before you fly more than 70 jumps... now think about a small gang not packing the firepower of a bs contingent.
i dont know where this leads but if people cant enjoy a game because they are dying to often theyll leave.
if you nerf nanos nerf mobile warp disruptors and interdiction technology aswell. |
Amelia Jun
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Posted - 2008.10.10 01:11:00 -
[414]
I finally listened to this live blog.
Unlike others, I think its good much of the same being re-iterated in a different format is a good thing. Many people will listen to something they wouldn't bother to read. The questions were good.
My main point of criticism is that Mindstar doesn't ask and kind of follow up questions. He just says "okay" and moves on to the next question. Good interviews depend on questions, responses, follow up questions, responses, etc. Not only would this make the live blog more interesting to listen to, but make for a more complete and unambiguois interview. |
Orwell Lok'errt
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Posted - 2008.10.10 04:40:00 -
[415]
I don't get it. So they wanted to make those changes some months ago but there was such an outcry against them that they pulled them from the the test server. Good, i thought, they must have seen what a crappy idea it was or maybe the've gotten a clue about the game from somewhere. And now they announce these exact same changes as something new... What hapenned? Have you guys lost it? The clue, i mean. wts a freaking clue. Hell i'll even give it to you for free.
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Velvet69
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.10 06:31:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Have all of you lost your eardrums or something?
Give the live dev blog another listen
It doesnt sound like they're about to break their baby that is EVE. Heck, they're trying to FIX it actually, thanks to you lot whoever has HG snakes and broke the physics engine by going above 8000m/s.
Did that Dev say 'remove the stacking penalties from webifiers' at the 7min 24 sec mark?
IXC Velvet69 Proud Member of 'The House of Prawn' |
Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.10 07:36:00 -
[417]
Ratio Legis
Quote: The most serious problem I see with all those changes is that under the proposed rules it will be very difficult to stop ships reapproaching a gate they just jumped through - practically impossible to do with a single tackler. The answer we were given to that concern - that CCP are contemplating to remove stacking penalty on webs - will ultimately lead to the impossibility to conduct solo combat in any form short of belt ganking.
And that is the problem with nano ships in the long run. i ave seen this with ishtars, Intercepters, and just about every hac, bc and smaller. BASSICALLY MAKEING THEM INVULNERABLE.
I mean lets face it. All you have to do is add waypoint to the system you came out of then set autopilot and typically with autopilot on... you never miss a jump. But if you dont have auto pilot on then the nano pilot is bound to make a mistake after the second or 3rd try.
That is an exploit. And CCP needs to take care of tis or every ship Commandship and smaller is completely untouchable because of that alone. |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.10 07:44:00 -
[418]
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 07:44:40
Originally by: muffminer Victory by forfeit.
You don't understand the difference between 'winning' and 'not losing'.... or rather, you distort it... Your nano-gang win by killing enemy ships... They 'win' by chasing you away... You really show your biased thinking there!
You also just described the whole problem with nano's. The defenders reacted quickly, predicted their enemies move, blocked off their path, caught them..... and they escaped anyway! The defenders DESERVED to annihilate that gang! They didn't 'win', but got cheated out of a win they deserved by broken game mechanics.
Winning is killing the other guys ship, not 'chasing them away'! Nano ships should on average die as often as other reasonable ship fittings, but we all know they don't (not even by a long shot). That is why they're so popular.... or in other words, unbalanced!
Everyone + dog is either flying nano these days, or training for it. 'One fitting to rule them all' is bad for the game, thus nano gets a well-deserved nerf.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.10 07:57:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Lusian
And that is the problem with nano ships in the long run. i ave seen this with ishtars, Intercepters, and just about every hac, bc and smaller. BASSICALLY MAKEING THEM INVULNERABLE.
I mean lets face it. All you have to do is add waypoint to the system you came out of then set autopilot and typically with autopilot on... you never miss a jump. But if you dont have auto pilot on then the nano pilot is bound to make a mistake after the second or 3rd try.
That is an exploit. And CCP needs to take care of tis or every ship Commandship and smaller is completely untouchable because of that alone.
You are so clueless than I don't even know where to start. But I will try.
If you believe the nonsense you're spitting, it means that you have NEVER flown nanoships. No lone nanoship can escape a large bubble + rapier set 80 Km BEHIND a gate aligned with the gate the nano's coming from. The only solution is to first warp to a fly-by or scouting BM set somewhere around the gate in order not to get sucked by the bubble, and from that spot warp to the gate. That, my nublet on steroids, every pilot can do it, no matter the ship or setup.
Autopilot...
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muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.10 07:58:00 -
[420]
Edited by: muffminer on 10/10/2008 08:00:17
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 07:46:03
Originally by: muffminer Victory by forfeit.
You don't understand the difference between 'winning' and 'not losing'.... or rather, you distort it... Your nano-gang win by killing enemy ships... They 'win' by chasing you away... You really show your biased thinking there!
You also just described the whole problem with nano's. The defenders reacted quickly, predicted their enemies move, blocked off their path, caught them..... and they escaped anyway! The defenders DESERVED to annihilate that gang! They didn't 'win', but got cheated out of a win they deserved by broken game mechanics. When you make a bad decision to engage in EVE, your gang should lose... BADLY. This doesn't apply for nano's as they can disengage quickly, which is exactly why a nerf is needed.
Winning is killing the other guys ship, not 'chasing them away'! Nano ships should on average die as often as other reasonable ship fittings, but we all know they don't (not even by a long shot). That is why they're so popular.... or in other words, unbalanced!
Everyone + dog is either flying nano these days, or training for it. 'One fitting to rule them all' is bad for the game, thus nano gets a well-deserved nerf.
WHen the other team in a football game doesn't show up is it considered a victory tot he other team? yes..they advance in status.
In eve..it means your space is clear..
In eve ALL SHIPS potentially have to ability to decide when to engage or when not to engage. How many 0.0 alliances do you know without a station to dock up in or safe POS's on as many moons as they can afford to populate?
The only difference is in our low dpsing groups that will only take on an actual fleet in groups can make that decision on the fly. However, unless you're camping a gate or traveling without a scout to begin with, or got scanned out for ratting in a system, if a large bubble is deployed how is it you think a like-minded rich little inty pilot isn't going to be able to catch said vagabond, and why aren't you using intel channels to cover up their escape route and box them in to a system when they're scouting into yours.
there have been very few times when anything has been able to catch me in a belt being alert...i've been in combat situations where we've had to wait for certain ship classes to show up before deciding to engage..and i've been in combat experiences where a t2 fleet with sniper BS and logistics support have been scurried up in moments. THe Skirmish warfare (ganksquad) group comes for GANKS. if it can't get the ganks they go away. There's a huge difference in assaulting a system and defending it. If the assaulting team comes, scores 0 kills, doesn't make any threat to your sov, and is moving on, i believe you've WON in defending your space with minimal losses. Next time take the strike to them. gank their ratters.
I personally feel a sense of victory when a nano gank squad fails on their mission because they knew not to f00k w/ me. And respect them for their wise choices on minimizing the loss of their fleet to come back another day perhaps.
There is no invulnerability involved..if the offense chooses to strike..the defence CAN grab ahold and sink its teeth in. or it can choose to sit back and let them pass..or hobble up and hide because they can't find within their alliance or corperation an inty pilot w/ the balls to throw some expensive rigs or implants in their heads.
I know what defeat is dude i've spent probably 2bil on my "invulnerable" ships alone learning their capabilities and drawbacks. if you don't have the tools to do the job don't step up to tackle it.
(edited for a few grammar fixes)
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.10 08:51:00 -
[421]
Semkhet
Quote: You are so clueless than I don't even know where to start. But I will try
OK , you want to know the truth. I dont have the greatest NAV skills but if i fit a nano set up and do what i just said. Basically link the system i just jumped from and hit auto pilot i get 99 % results of jumping back into the system i just came from. THERE CCP I JUST SAID IT. 99 % of te time.
You know what else ? I have haveing to nano fit. that means i am flying a HOT ROD instead of flying a space fareing war vessal. I might as well have ccp make me a new Lamborghini or how ever you spell it so i can hot rod around and take advantage of game bugs. Well wait asecone, i am flying a hot rod ship and i probably wont have to fit any nano setups.
So yes its rediculous to see pilots do the same thing and basically not get touched. which is why I dont do it anymore. I have seen bot sodes of the nano set up. Bad and Good and untimately..... If you want to not have a nano nerf then i want the nerf taken off the mwd's so i can fit a full rack of 8 mwd's and not hurt on te cap much.
Now te game wont be worth playing at all. We Need balance or the game becomes one sided, and that makes for a boring game. All ships are nano'd. You could nano a snail and it would be a force to recon with. |
Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.10 08:59:00 -
[422]
Quote: I have haveing to nano fitl
Ment to say that I hate haveing to nano fit. |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:10:00 -
[423]
Edited by: Murina on 10/10/2008 09:17:20
Originally by: Kerfira
When you make a bad decision to engage in EVE, your gang should lose... BADLY. This doesn't apply for nano's as they can disengage quickly, which is exactly why a nerf is needed.
Would you consider not bringing tacklers as a bad decision cos if we see a fast gang in our space we bring the right tool for the right job.
Originally by: Kerfira The defenders reacted quickly, predicted their enemies move, blocked off their path, caught them..... and they escaped anyway!
See what i mean..you claim they "caught" the nano gang but in truth they did not "catch" sod all, they just turned up in the path of the nano gang with obviously no tackle (or they would have caught the gang) and are crying about the nano gang not sitting still like idiots while they shot them.
Lack of organization and poor ship and fitting choices on the part of the defender is not the fault of nano.
Are you deluded or just stupid?. |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:23:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Velvet69
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Have all of you lost your eardrums or something?
Give the live dev blog another listen
It doesnt sound like they're about to break their baby that is EVE. Heck, they're trying to FIX it actually, thanks to you lot whoever has HG snakes and broke the physics engine by going above 8000m/s.
Did that Dev say 'remove the stacking penalties from webifiers' at the 7min 24 sec mark?
""question: One of the key things things that ship ware able to do qwhen speed fitted, which is perhaps not intedet, is beeing able to reaproach stargate and jump throu, even if they webbed, or if they get webbed after they start aproach, a lot of time ship is very fast and momentum is able to just carry them on backt o the gate. Is this a game design consideration for speed balance?
Answer: Yea, of course it is. Bla bla bla. We're not entire sure how it will work on tranquillity, ofc, but some options we are looking it is removing stacking penalty for webifiers. So, definitly we gonna kee an eye on this and we will resolve if there will be an issues.""
"Roaming must remain a viable option" my arse :p |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:32:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 09:33:51
Originally by: Murina .... with obviously no tackle (or they would have caught the gang)...
But the problem is, a nano'ed ship can just tap the MWD button and be out of web range in 2-3 seconds. That is faster than most other ships can lock! Once out of web range, they're out of scramble range too in 2 seconds more.
When you CAN'T effectively tackle, how can you catch people? You CAN'T, which is exactly why this unbalanced advantage has to be taken from nano-ships (and CCP seem to be realising this).
So no, I'm neither stupid nor deluded. I'm objectively evaluating the pro's and con's of the matter, and is finding nano'ing to be overpowered. If nothing else proves it, the sheer amount of nano'ed ships roaming around is a hard give-away.
YOU on the other hand is highly biased in favour of your I-Win button and will do anything to keep it!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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SciWolf
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:49:00 -
[426]
Edited by: SciWolf on 10/10/2008 09:49:56 I use a Vaga, every ceptor can catch me. Btw vaga's are not only the most dangerous ships, but also most lost ones. Its balance, isn't it? If you can't get enough ceptors in your gang - it's your problem.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:50:00 -
[427]
Kerfira
Quote: YOU on the other hand is highly biased in favour of your I-Win button and will do anything to keep it
Thankyou.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:50:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 09:33:51
Originally by: Murina .... with obviously no tackle (or they would have caught the gang)...
But the problem is, a nano'ed ship can just tap the MWD button and be out of web range in 2-3 seconds. That is faster than most other ships can lock! Once out of web range, they're out of scramble range too in 2 seconds more.
When you CAN'T effectively tackle, how can you catch people? You CAN'T, which is exactly why this unbalanced advantage has to be taken from nano-ships (and CCP seem to be realising this).
So no, I'm neither stupid nor deluded. I'm objectively evaluating the pro's and con's of the matter, and is finding nano'ing to be overpowered. If nothing else proves it, the sheer amount of nano'ed ships roaming around is a hard give-away.
YOU on the other hand is highly biased in favour of your I-Win button and will do anything to keep it!
Eh what are you using to tackle? battleships?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:59:00 -
[429]
Edited by: Murina on 10/10/2008 10:14:52
Originally by: Kerfira
When you make a bad decision to engage in EVE, your gang should lose... BADLY. This doesn't apply for nano's as they can disengage quickly, which is exactly why a nerf is needed.
Originally by: Murina Would you consider not bringing tacklers as a bad decision cos if we see a fast gang in our space we bring the right tool for the right job.
Originally by: Kerfira The defenders reacted quickly, predicted their enemies move, blocked off their path, caught them..... and they escaped anyway!
Originally by: Murina See what i mean..you claim they "caught" the nano gang but in truth they did not "catch" sod all, they just turned up in the path of the nano gang with obviously no tackle (or they would have caught the gang) and are crying about the nano gang not sitting still like idiots while they shot them.
Lack of organization and poor ship and fitting choices on the part of the defender is not the fault of nano.
Are you deluded or just stupid?.
Originally by: Kerfira But the problem is, a nano'ed ship can just tap the MWD button and be out of web range in 2-3 seconds. That is faster than most other ships can lock! Once out of web range, they're out of scramble range too in 2 seconds more.
Im sorry your passive tanked ratting drake cannot web a running nano ship in time, how about you try bringing rapiers that can easily slow and catch nano, or inties that can easily out run and slow and catch them also. Your logistics and ewar keep them safe and your dmg dealers melt them its quite simple unless your clueless and want pvp to be like pve and f1-f8 is your idea of skill and teamwork.
I fly caldari pal and just recently i was with a group that uses cruise ravens for their main dmg dealing ships along with a bit of ewar and tackle and we had no problem with nano gangs at all unless the numbers are massively in their favor, and even then we pick off a few.
YOU are unwilling to learn or think so stupid applies perfectly to you as you preach about poor decisions deserving to be punished but do not include stupid ship and fitting choices plus poor organization in that assessment.
Plenty of ppl kill nano gangs and ships every day just cos you find it too hard and are unwilling to learn is not the style of pvp's fault its yours.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.10 10:33:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 09:33:51
Originally by: Murina .... with obviously no tackle (or they would have caught the gang)...
But the problem is, a nano'ed ship can just tap the MWD button and be out of web range in 2-3 seconds. That is faster than most other ships can lock! Once out of web range, they're out of scramble range too in 2 seconds more.
When you CAN'T effectively tackle, how can you catch people? You CAN'T, which is exactly why this unbalanced advantage has to be taken from nano-ships (and CCP seem to be realising this).
So no, I'm neither stupid nor deluded. I'm objectively evaluating the pro's and con's of the matter, and is finding nano'ing to be overpowered. If nothing else proves it, the sheer amount of nano'ed ships roaming around is a hard give-away.
YOU on the other hand is highly biased in favour of your I-Win button and will do anything to keep it!
Eh what are you using to tackle? battleships?
Proly ratting setups with a crappy t1 web fitted and no sensor booster lol. |
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stagz
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:27:00 -
[431]
Lusian is there any particular reason why you are unable to answer my post? |
DeathEngine
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:45:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Svjeza Roba Well,let me say this way.....NO NEAD FOR NANO NERF Como on,waisting time here,this all nano nerf thing is just geting crybabis calme down,so thay can again fly thay huge BS sit there and just push F1-F8,and watch the fight.Nano ships are easy to kill,easy to avoid and thay cost a lot of money,even a notmal t2 fit is still expencive.Hacs are usefull only if nanod,and still thay allso sufer consequencins of relaing on just one form of fight,Spead.On other side if someone did spend billions of isk to get his faction gear and expenciv implants,he deservs to be untuchibel for 50M BS.Dont u think so.A ferari Car will allways go faster than your sporty fancy Opel car,for a reason,it cost way more money.Intys r ment to be fast,faster than anything,cose only thing thay r ment to do is to tackel,and that is what thay do,relaing on their spead,as thair only wepon.So leave tham that way,please.CCP is trying to do uninteligent move and change whole game to suposly balance something that is not broken.Thay r going to afect to many aspects of game whit curent proposal of spead nerf.All nerf that did do in past to certain ships did make this ships uslesss.Thay did nerf all gallent ships and now going to do so to minimatar.So we can all just train for Caldari ships,and do the great scenario of pvp,means,warp in activate wepons and sit there,not moving,and watching the misilis fly all over.The only fun that pvp actualy have is the only one that make actuali do fighting tactics and improvise on batell field,is based around mwd,web and point,move fast,think fast,react fast,and actuali do activ pvp-ing and now CCP propse that we all shud fly BS ships size and fire misiles. CCP i know i did spen last few month working on your nano nerf idea,and it is hard after so long to see that u did go wrong direction,and just quit,but be reasnebel,just quit it befor u fu.. up this game.I can keep along whith few ships beeing nerf down,like gallent recons and mymr but if u going to nerf all pvp based moduls and all game mechanich i will quit this game.Cose im tired ,like many others,of your mesing up stuff. Im flying my vexor in pvp,and im hapy whith it,i dont mind geting engaged by vagas,or ishtars,or intys.I can stil survive and have fun,and i dont expect that im going to kill vaga in t1 cruiser,but from time to time it hapends.So basicli to every one out there,learn how to fly your pvp ship,form mixed gangs of diferent ship typs,and u will kill all nano guys.Stop crying on forums if your raven canot kill a nano ishtar,just kill his dronse you nobs and chil out.U can allways desingage and jump thru gate or dock,and if u r cought in belt,than that is your own stupid mistake for not using scan and watching local.So please give us all a break and learn how to pvp. CCP once more quit speed nerf,u are still in time. THX
This! This! This! Read it again. Been playing now for a year and a bit and have loved every minute of it and couldn't consider playing another game until I saw this crap. Think real hard about this CCP, before you f#*k it up. All that time training for Minmatar wasted? All that time spent mining and mission running to earn isk to buy decent ships and skills wasted? If so, my 3 accounts will be terminated - the only fair response when u basically say f#*k you and your time (to me)! Only thing that's needed is 1) a little tweek (to satisfy the Caldari whingers) is a buff to missile explosion velocity (but ffs don't over-do it and allow heavy missiles to two-volley hacs!) or improve Javlins or introduce a heat-seeking missile designed to seek MWD's (but with low damage) 2) maybe nerf snakes a bit and 3) revisit the agility enhancing change to stasis webs. That's it. Read the above quote again for how it really frigging is before listening to a minute proportion of the whinging community and f#*king the game up for the rest of us.
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Apsidia
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:48:00 -
[433]
Edited by: Apsidia on 10/10/2008 11:52:27 Eve should be difficult game. Eve should not be primitive game. Each ship should be useful. The combination of various modules in the ships should be useful. The more the modules, useful variations of the fit set for each ship, the more interestingly game. Tactics should not come to an end on calculation of range of a shot, damage, quantity of armor, shield, structure - as it is primitiveness. Tactics, also, should be and in ship flight control, operating by active modules directly during fight. Success of fight should depend not only on mathematics, but also from ship-handling experience. The small ships too have the right to resist to the big ships and in every possible way to disturb it, can and for the account of big speed. To tackle interestingly as it demands calculation of speed, an orbit, a direction of movement, a overal capacity and power consumption of the ship modules. I love difficult games in all. I love, when bolts twist more tightly. I love, when in game there is a choice and in each choice there are minuses and pluses. I love balanced games. I love a variety. I do not love primitive games like lineage or wow. And I want that Eve remained such game which I love and developed in this direction. |
Eraggan Sadarr
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.10 13:10:00 -
[434]
When will there be a mp3 version for the people that missed it!??
Eve Market Scanner |
Scaen
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.10 13:26:00 -
[435]
I didn't read many of these posts, but just want to add my opinion: Proposed nano nerf is of way too big scale, and this is from Caldari pilot who's alliance was struggling against nano gangs - and still is for great part, and crying for not being able to catch many of them There are some very good proposals, like one for Warp Scrambler that disables MWD, and some reduction in speed is probably good, but not this big. IMO things shouldn't be so straight forward, why there wouldn't be (actually single) cruiser class ship that can outmaneuver interceptor? Why should missiles have to be able to catch every cruiser class ship? (I'm Caldari pilot, remember?). You want to counter nano ships? Have a nano squad in fleet. You don't have minmatar race pilots? You don't need to, you can train any race ship class, remember?
So I'm not sure will this kill or not skirmish warfare, but I like those damn "rebels" outmaneuvering our heavy fleets, killing those foolish single ceptors who dare to follow them too far away from fleet. It's not like there is currently no counter to nano gangs, just people are lazy to setup fleets properly - yes, pilots and FC's need to finally understand that fleets to defend 0.0 space can't be straight forward and formed with ships that pilots offer/come in, fleets need sound construction. If you're lazy to make properly constructed fleet, if pilots doesn't want to change from their heavy tanked whatever_ship_he_currently_is_but_most_probably_a_drake than GTFO from 0.0 or die silently, don't cry about it.
Also it looks to me that many people think they must be able to kill absolutely whole opposing 30man fleet if they come with 100 pilots!?! But, since those 30 are nano, and they are nano to evade those heavy 100 man mostly_bs/drake fleets, most likely is that 25 of those 30 will escape. And there comes whining about those damn nano ships. But guess what? That will continue to happen even after nerf because you don't have enough tacklers in your poor constructed 100man fleet, they will run out of dic/hic bubles even after nano nerf, killing your ceptors and again you will need to adopt to game just like now. Or you will just continue to whine about those damn reds runing out of your guns/missiles range and warp away (damn them, how they dare do that!?).
Please, don't reduce choices in game, it's broad availability of choices is what makes this game so great.
cheers
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.10 13:30:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Scaen I didn't read many of these posts, but just want to add my opinion: Proposed nano nerf is of way too big scale, and this is from Caldari pilot who's alliance was struggling against nano gangs - and still is for great part, and crying for not being able to catch many of them There are some very good proposals, like one for Warp Scrambler that disables MWD, and some reduction in speed is probably good, but not this big. IMO things shouldn't be so straight forward, why there wouldn't be (actually single) cruiser class ship that can outmaneuver interceptor? Why should missiles have to be able to catch every cruiser class ship? (I'm Caldari pilot, remember?). You want to counter nano ships? Have a nano squad in fleet. You don't have minmatar race pilots? You don't need to, you can train any race ship class, remember?
So I'm not sure will this kill or not skirmish warfare, but I like those damn "rebels" outmaneuvering our heavy fleets, killing those foolish single ceptors who dare to follow them too far away from fleet. It's not like there is currently no counter to nano gangs, just people are lazy to setup fleets properly - yes, pilots and FC's need to finally understand that fleets to defend 0.0 space can't be straight forward and formed with ships that pilots offer/come in, fleets need sound construction. If you're lazy to make properly constructed fleet, if pilots doesn't want to change from their heavy tanked whatever_ship_he_currently_is_but_most_probably_a_drake than GTFO from 0.0 or die silently, don't cry about it.
Also it looks to me that many people think they must be able to kill absolutely whole opposing 30man fleet if they come with 100 pilots!?! But, since those 30 are nano, and they are nano to evade those heavy 100 man mostly_bs/drake fleets, most likely is that 25 of those 30 will escape. And there comes whining about those damn nano ships. But guess what? That will continue to happen even after nerf because you don't have enough tacklers in your poor constructed 100man fleet, they will run out of dic/hic bubles even after nano nerf, killing your ceptors and again you will need to adopt to game just like now. Or you will just continue to whine about those damn reds runing out of your guns/missiles range and warp away (damn them, how they dare do that!?).
Please, don't reduce choices in game, it's broad availability of choices is what makes this game so great.
cheers
/signed
Well said and well thought out.
I officially take back 50% of the bad things i have said in the past about MM. |
Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.10 14:15:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Scaen
Also it looks to me that many people think they must be able to kill absolutely whole opposing 30man fleet if they come with 100 pilots!?! But, since those 30 are nano, and they are nano to evade those heavy 100 man mostly_bs/drake fleets, most likely is that 25 of those 30 will escape. And there comes whining about those damn nano ships. But guess what? That will continue to happen even after nerf because you don't have enough tacklers in your poor constructed 100man fleet, they will run out of dic/hic bubles even after nano nerf, killing your ceptors and again you will need to adopt to game just like now. Or you will just continue to whine about those damn reds runing out of your guns/missiles range and warp away (damn them, how they dare do that!?).
Please, don't reduce choices in game, it's broad availability of choices is what makes this game so great.
cheers
i'm afraid you are not right on this one.. This is a major blow to viriaty in game mechanics and no mather how inteligent and smart solution and organisation of a roaming gangs is, simply nothing will work more efficiantly then f1-f8 missile spam. --------- phew phew
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Scaen
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.10 15:01:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Hul'ka i'm afraid you are not right on this one.. This is a major blow to viriaty in game mechanics and no mather how inteligent and smart solution and organisation of a roaming gangs is, simply nothing will work more efficiantly then f1-f8 missile spam.
You have taken part of my post out of contents. I was refering to some fleet construction lacks that will affect it's performance after nerf as well, tho shurely not in that great scale as now. And I think it's understandable from my post that I don't really agree with changes.
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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.10.10 15:01:00 -
[439]
Transcript Click to read in browser, Right Click & "Save Link As" to download the .pdf
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.10 16:28:00 -
[440]
Edited by: Sebea on 10/10/2008 16:28:58 Questions nobody asked:
1)Snipers are going to be untouchable at 200km, nothing will live to make the trip out to them. Whats to be done about this? They now, by virtue of fitting, become untouchable due to the range ability (i.e. when you start getting even remotely close, they just warp out).
Dictors are going to get yet another nerf, slowing down even more, in a ship that already can't take any dps at all. Inties were ALOT slower on the original test, and trying to make it out to a SINGLE tempest, i either died, or he warped out long before i got there EVERY TIME
2) 50% webs means that ships that jump into camps will be able to disengage at will, by simply motoring back to the gate and jumping through
3) Falcoms join the ranks of ships that can't be touched, by jamming out at 200km, again, either cloaking, or warping at the first sign of another ship getting close.
4) Your saying your upset that the MWD is a "must fit" item, but your now saying that the afterburner will be the must fit item, and that's ok. How do you feel about being two faced?
5) Where did you get your new batch of Devs, and what happened to the ones that actually played the game and new what they were talking about?
6) How is a black ops battleship supposed to help keep skirmish warfare alive? They can only jump recons and such, how are the now useless hac's supposed to get around with them? what about the logistics that come on the roams?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.10 16:48:00 -
[441]
Edited by: lecrotta on 10/10/2008 16:57:34
Originally by: Sebea
Questions nobody asked:
1)Snipers are going to be untouchable at 200km, nothing will live to make the trip out to them. Whats to be done about this? They now, by virtue of fitting, become untouchable due to the range ability (i.e. when you start getting even remotely close, they just warp out).
No change tbh as snipers can do this now although they will be able to fire off more volleys before needing to warp off cos approaching ships will be slower if this stupid nerf goes through.
Originally by: Sebea Dictors are going to get yet another nerf, slowing down even more, in a ship that already can't take any dps at all. Inties were ALOT slower on the original test, and trying to make it out to a SINGLE tempest, i either died, or he warped out long before i got there EVERY TIME
All small ships are screwed by this nerf cos if you are close to one ship you are in the sweet spot for his buddies and are gonna get insta melted.
Originally by: Sebea 2) 50% webs means that ships that jump into camps will be able to disengage at will, by simply motoring back to the gate and jumping through
They mumbled summat about removing the web stacking penalty.
Originally by: Sebea 3) Falcoms join the ranks of ships that can't be touched, by jamming out at 200km, again, either cloaking, or warping at the first sign of another ship getting close.
No change tbh as they can do it now although like snipers they will be active longer due to slower ships approaching.
Originally by: Sebea 4) Your saying your upset that the MWD is a "must fit" item, but your now saying that the afterburner will be the must fit item, and that's ok. How do you feel about being two faced?
I doubt they feel anything as both modules will be pointless for tanking in gang combat. A most supporters of this stupid nerf are more interested in turning pvp into f1-f8 static slug fests that they can win in pve ship blobs.
Originally by: Sebea 5) Where did you get your new batch of Devs, and what happened to the ones that actually played the game and new what they were talking about?.
They were bred in vats but somebody substituted the pvper DNA for a mix of mission runner, miner and ratter DNA.
Originally by: Sebea 6) How is a black ops battleship supposed to help keep skirmish warfare alive? They can only jump recons and such, how are the now useless hac's supposed to get around with them? what about the logistics that come on the roams?.
Look stop asking awkward questions, the devs spent almost 3 minutes 47 seconds deciding to screw the game up utterly by blindly swinging the nerf bat. And its gonna take several patches on sisi before they realize (like the rest of us do already) that its not gonna work and speed in needed to make pvp different than ratting or mission running. |
Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.10 16:57:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 09/10/2008 15:19:05 DEV BLOG Q & A TRANSLATED:
Q1. Whats the status of changes.
A. Dunno we are busy but they maybe on multi in a week and sisi on the next expansion..
Q2. Considering how much you need to change because of how much this nerf breaks will you be staggering the changes?.
A. No (as it will illustrate how much it sucks).
Q3. Will speed fitted interceptors be able to out rum warrior II's or small missiles.
A. NO (so f1-f8 missile spam and drone swarms ftw).
Q4. Will a ship be able to re-approach a gate if it jumps into a camp.
A. At the moment with the nerf he has a chance but we are gonna buff webs so...NO (your totally f*cked and have no chance if you jump into a camped gate, so bring a blob and jump or do not jump and logoff for the night).
Q5. Will weapons be changed so they are not overpowered.
A. They will be changed but they will still hit and cause dmg (sig radius dependent) (so blob and missile spam ftw).
Q6. The first patch sucked balls so you pulled it off sisi, what are you gonna change.
A. Missile dmg formula and agility. (nothing that will make any difference tbh)
Q7. How will web bonuses on marauder's be kept.
A. We are gonna increase the bonus but they will still be weaker. (who cares nobody uses them in pvp anyway)
Q8. What is gonna change to make mwd a non essential module in pvp.
A. Afterburners and scram changes are gonna be better than mwd we think.......(like it matters when f1-f8 will kill anything after the speed nerf anyway).
Q9. Why make all ships slower instead of just slowing the ultra fast ones.
A. T2 being better than T1 (And ppl not wanting to tackle or work to kill stuff).
Q10. You can disrupt guns but defenders suck and also missile ships get FOF, what you gonna do about that.
A. Fix defenders...(perhaps).
Q11. Why not boost existing anti-speed modules instead of nerfing the crap out of everything related to speed.
A. Its easier to swing the nerf bat and see if we can fix the problems that it causes. (we do not really pvp in eve much so we have no real concept how bad these changes are for skilled gang pvp)
Q12. why not just change the extreme speeds instead of screwing over the entire game.
A. We think its easier to nerf everything then try to fix the problems that causes than to fix the real problem.(we do not really pvp in eve much so we have no real concept how bad these changes are for skilled gang pvp)
Q13. med slot mods that get 2 effects were considered too powerful and yet you introduce a scram with two effects..why.
A. Nobody was using the scram so we thought we would make it overpowered.(we wanna totally kill anything but static blob fighting)
Q14. What will happen to the clones with implants now the slots are moved.
A. They will be unplugged and dropped in your cargo or hangar. (who cares they are worthless now anyway)
Q15. How will small roaming gangs avoid getting blobbed in 0.0 without speed.
A. erm erm dunno but we are gonna boost black ops ships......maybe. (dunno so il mumble stuff about PVP in eve 4 years ago before speed, when we had a tiny percentage of the player base and no jump bridges).
Q16. Will AF's be any good after this patch.
A. I think so cos the speed changes will allow smaller ships to get in close and use transversal to speed tank guns and missiles (missiles with transversal issues??? lol). (Did somebody forget that if you at 0km on one ship your at the perfect range for others in his gang?.)
LOL! How true! |
Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.10 17:16:00 -
[443]
The facts remain these:
1. The dev blog was sad. No real issue was addressed. Just a few generic questions that were also sadly answered 90% of the time.
2. The nerf only benefits blob warfare.
3. The game breaking speeds were only achievable by HG snake sets which were not the standard but quite rare due to the extreme price. If the physics engine broke with those, the only thing that needed nerfing was the snake sets. Maybe a bit on polies.
4. Snipperboats is the new way to go all the way on large scale warfare.
5. Close range weapons are dead (Blasters/ACs).
6. Mini ships lost their only advantage that being speed.
7. Ships with MWD bonus (Deimos/Thorax) that were intended for close range are dead.
8. Rappiers/Huggins are dead.
9. HACs are dead. No reason to use them over a BC that is insurable, can tank much better and in some cases has more DPS.
10. Drake is the new king of ships.
11. Missiles are now the only weapon to use. It will always do damage. You can outtrack all other weapon systems for no damage. Missiles will always hit.
12. Arazu is the ship every fleet won't be without. Faction scrambs and everyone using MWDs will be halted to a crawl with 2 points on them.
13. Small gang guerilla warfare that was based on mobility is dead. Bring your blobs and join big alliances so you have numbers.
14. Nanogangs were not I win buttons. They could be countered in a lot of ways with cap warfare being number 1.
15. Anything at ludicrous speeds with snakes could not hit anything due to tracking, except drone ships. So those few extremists all they could do was tackle/support.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.10 18:07:00 -
[444]
Originally by: lecrotta Look stop asking awkward questions, the devs spent almost 3 minutes 47 seconds deciding to screw the game up utterly by blindly swinging the nerf bat. And its gonna take several patches on sisi before they realize (like the rest of us do already) that its not gonna work and speed in needed to make pvp different than ratting or mission running.
Bad news: They won't realize anything, they don't look back nor they have any responsibility, hence they do not have to be troubled by their moves. |
Killer Rasta
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:26:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2008 07:46:03
Originally by: muffminer Victory by forfeit.
You don't understand the difference between 'winning' and 'not losing'.... or rather, you distort it... Your nano-gang win by killing enemy ships... They 'win' by chasing you away... You really show your biased thinking there!
You also just described the whole problem with nano's. The defenders reacted quickly, predicted their enemies move, blocked off their path, caught them..... and they escaped anyway! The defenders DESERVED to annihilate that gang! They didn't 'win', but got cheated out of a win they deserved by broken game mechanics. When you make a bad decision to engage in EVE, your gang should lose... BADLY. This doesn't apply for nano's as they can disengage quickly, which is exactly why a nerf is needed.
Winning is killing the other guys ship, not 'chasing them away'! Nano ships should on average die as often as other reasonable ship fittings, but we all know they don't (not even by a long shot). That is why they're so popular.... or in other words, unbalanced!
Everyone + dog is either flying nano these days, or training for it. 'One fitting to rule them all' is bad for the game, thus nano gets a well-deserved nerf.
BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:36:00 -
[446]
God in heaven there are some angry, angry people playing this game. FFS it's a game people. Calm the **** down.
I have seen some good arguments and discussions on some of the forums... Some people do good work playesting the changes and posting what they find, and their opionions. However, there's precious little of value to read here.
I'm personally in favour of the changes because they bring the possibility of diversity back to the game. Nano bores me. Oh whoa, he goes 20k/sec. "Oh cool, my ping latency is so high it's russian roulette whether or not I actually get a lock on him."
Frankly, at the kind of speeds you're talking about, and the engagement ranges of weaponry in Eve, you're not playing other people. You're playing at anticipating the delay in your network connection.
I don't enjoy games that are all about reaction time. And I wish all you ****ers that do would just quit and go play counterstrike so you can complain about w4llh4x(!!1!11). In terms of style - I'd rather play hide and seek with cloakers, or barrel in with a plated blaster boat - and so on, than the ubiquitous 'rargh-charge-peckpeckpeck' of nanoships.
Otherwise, vote with your feet or wallet : Quit the game and play another MMORPG. Or : Stop engaging in fleet actions and leave CCPs precious sandbox of 0.0 if the changes work out to be that terrible in fact. Let BoB win all of 0.0 - uncontested, it'd be a hollow and pointless victory.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.10 20:27:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Black Necris Dear Lusian:
Just when i was thinking ppl coulnt be any more imbecil whiners i found you.
Your arguments perfectly embody the arguments of all those nanobiotches who can play sh8t and want to justify they nerdiness by crying HAX!!
You obviusly dont know shit about nano ships, you just know that you cant kill them cose your stupid, there fore ill try to educate you in the subject... even if i know its imposible to educate a monkey like you.
First Complain: Nano ships cant be caught!! waahhhh!! waaaahhh!! HAXORDS! Answer: Well of course they are hard to be caught... behind the nanoship is an experienced pilot who had used those ships from starters and know them like the palm of his hand... he knows when to engage how to move how to bump when to disengage etc etc... either you learn that or you go broke bcos NANO SHIPS ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.
Second Complain: Nanoships go faster than my frigate!!! WHAAA! WHAAAA! Answer: Well of course they go fast!! If my vaga does 9k and your intie does 6k its because i got a set of implants/rigs/named items not to mention MAXED OUT NAVIGATION SKILLS. As an example, if i do 9k in the vagabond, and i switch for an interceptor... THEN ILL DO 12k, SIMPLE AINT IT?. How in the freaking name of jesus you want your sheety 3 million interceptor with no rigs no experienced pilot to go faster than my 1 billion vagabond with my implants rigs and maxed skills? explain pls?
Third Complain: Nanoships killed meh!! wahhh!! wahhh!! he orbited me doing 12k a second!! hax hax!! Answer: Well of course this aint possible!! cose it dosnt happen!! you cant hit shiet while at speed!! have you even flown a vaga before??? you need to orbit and if you have the mwd on you wont be abble to hit nothing... you need to slow down to do damage.
Fourth Complain: Nanoships cant be killed!!!! waaahhh wahhhhh!! nerf nerf!! Answer: This just show what an imbecil you and your friends are... have you heard of rapiers? hughin much?? neutralizers??? a nano ship without capacitor is a dead duck.... but of course you cant know of this things... cose you want your shiety tier one ships to be abble to do as t2 ships do... and with cheap modules.
To resume... you sir... you are an imbecil... now leave the forums, we dont want you here anymore.
What a load of crap...
Nano ships can hit nothing while doing 7846378 m/s, well they will if they fit missiles/drones... a good example of this is the nano cerberus, nano sacrilege, nano ishtar, nano curses ... should I go on ?
Regarding the Cruiser sized ship going faster then a frigate... maybe is a bit wrong a cruiser/BS go faster then a supposedellly interceptor ...
Regarding the impossibility of being killed .. well they can be killed and they actually die easaly. My only objection to nano fits is that most of the times the fight just doesn't happen ...
Oh and just only a advice: Stop the abusive language...
________________ God is my Wingman |
Sylthi
Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic
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Posted - 2008.10.10 20:36:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Vengal Seyhan God in heaven there are some angry, angry people playing this game.
This is one of the major parts of your post that I agree with, but not the only part. UNfortunately, what you seem to miss is that maybe people have a very good reason to be this upset. CCP likes to tout that they are a "different kind of MMO", and with the exception of their draconian rule balance and enforcement efforts, they are largely right. The concept and gameplay of Eve is awesome! No question. The implementation and running of Eve, and how often you get to play Eve, however, are etirely different stories. Many people, myself included, have years invested in this game. Why? Because that is how long it takes to train for some of the higher end stuff. When you add all of that up, you're talking about nearing a thousand dollars, for a single account. THAT, my friend, IS a big deal.
This nerf, by itself, threatens all of that money and time invested for many people. Again, myself included, but not in the way you think. More on that in a minute.
This game isn't like WoW, where you can play for 3 months, ding your character to 60, see everything there is to see, and be gone for just under a hundred bucks. (I have not done this as I would not touch WoW with a ten-foot pole, but I have several friends who have.) For the most part, this point is a GOOD thing for Eve. But, it can just as easily become a very bad thing. Because, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Sorry, its politics season in the US, couldn't resist.
So, for the most part I agree with you. If people are that upset with CCP for the changes, then they should vote with their wallets as I have. My once five accounts have fallen down to one, solely because of bonehead rule changes like the one CCP is planning here. Who knows, one day I may be down to none if CCP keeps going this way.
Now that we are done with the "love in" we get to the part that I don't agree with, and that happens to be the majority of the tone of your post. You're attitude seems to be that: "My play style is being enhanced so: GREAT! Everyone else who's play style is getting trashed should just shut up, stop posting, go away, and die."
Honestly, if you don't see a problem with your attitude, when paraphrased like I just did, I am really wasting my time calling you on it.
The last point I want to make here is that it was my question that I posted that was answered about "Why are you making slow ships slower as part of the effort to fix the "too fast" ones." I deeply appreciate the fact that my question got answered, and the honesty in which it was answered. UNfortunately, the answer I got from the dev was just about what I expected, and why I am so angry at CCP right now.
Because, you see, I do not fly nano. I fly battleships, both in PvP and PvE all the time. Battleships are getting a massive hit with the "Speed balancing effort", because the devs answer was: "because something had to give somewhere." That is a COMPLETELY despotic answer! That is: "You are getting crapped on because we say so."
Make no mistake my friends, the "Speed Balance" and the "Speed fixing" are two entirely different things that the devs have very wrongly lumped together so as to make us swallow them. "Speed Fixing" the ships that are breaking the game is needed. But, ONLY them, and ONLY to stop them from breaking the game. The "Speed Balance" is just a blatant abuse of power on the part of the devs and is plainly wrong. It NEEDS to be stopped.
*
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.10 20:40:00 -
[449]
Originally by: DeadDuck
What a load of crap...
Oh and just only a advice: Stop the abusive language...
Sori could not resist this.
Originally by: DeadDuck Nano ships can hit nothing while doing 7846378 m/s, well they will if they fit missiles/drones... a good example of this is the nano cerberus, nano sacrilege, nano ishtar, nano curses ... should I go on ?
Meh drones pop easy and those nano ships you mention can be melted by amaar BS.
Originally by: DeadDuck Regarding the Cruiser sized ship going faster then a frigate... maybe is a bit wrong a cruiser/BS go faster then a supposedly interceptor ...
Oh dear so you think cruiser hulls are faster than friggie or destroyer hulls?..let me guess your fitting the cruisers with t2 rigs, hg snakes, claymore bonuses and faction mads aaaaaaaand the frigs are t1 crap with t1 fittings and no rigs?.
Use the same fittings on all the hulls and frigs faster than destroyers, destroyers faster than cruisers, cruisers faster than BC ect ect.....
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.10.10 23:41:00 -
[450]
How to kill a nanoship:
1. Bring Rapier 2. Bring Huginn 3. Bring Curse 4. Bring Armageddon 5. Bring Abaddon 6. Bring Apoc /w locus coordinators (instant win) 7. Bring missile spammers 8. Bring neuting battleships 9. Bring better nanoships. 10. Bring capitals
How to survive a nanoship: 1. Fit a tank 2. Fit any ewar 3. Use any remote repping 4. Don't get caught completely by yourself with no tank.
How to fly in Eve with nano nerfed to shite: 1. Hay, bring moar battleships! 2. ... 3. OH CRAP BLOB
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:07:00 -
[451]
Sebea
Quote: 1)Snipers are going to be untouchable at 200km, nothing will live to make the trip out to them. Whats to be done about this? They now, by virtue of fitting, become untouchable due to the range ability (i.e. when you start getting even remotely close, they just warp out).
Thats why we have tacklers and now dicters to make sure tey don't escape. The battleships on your side as a chance to finish them off or escape. When you think about it, Battleships are quite vulnerable to faster ships.
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:32:00 -
[452]
I think what people are missing here is the game engine is having trouble handling ships going at the speeds they are, it may not be as much of a problem now but as more and more people make extreme speed ships it is going to press the engine more and more in battles causeing worse lag and eventually crashes. And we all love lag and crashes so much. :( There is a definate imbalance in game play due to speed, but that is not the main issue. If it was the only issue they probably would have fixed it another way.
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FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:33:00 -
[453]
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XxqrFEjDswE
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Cdr Gimli
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Posted - 2008.10.11 01:35:00 -
[454]
I think "a" speed nerf is really necessary although I'm not sure if the proposed way is the right way to do it.
But I think there is at least one major issue with nanos that needs to be balanced - they are the only ships in EVE that can actually avoid a fight by just hitting a button/key. There is no real skill involved in that and it rarely needs all those expensive implants people are talking about.
Try flying around in 0.0 with any non-nano ship and you will find out that you will have to fight sooner or later even without running into a blob. But with nano you don't have to fight at all. The only real decision you have to make is if you can win a fight or not. You can even try to fight and run a bit later when you notice you can't win. But there is no real chance your opponent will be able to kill you if your not too stupid (hitting one button at the right moment).
The real problem is that with nano only one player (or side if its a gang) decides if a fight takes place! And usually a fight only takes place if the nano pilot/gang is sure he/they will win! And I honestly think this should not be the case...anybody looking for prey should have to take a considerable risk to be killed! Nanos pilots usually don't take any risks!
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Kethry Avenger
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2008.10.11 03:29:00 -
[455]
Any Plans to release the recording of the Blog? Unlike the last ones I didn't see it stated that it would be.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.11 04:57:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Lusian Sebea
Quote: 1)Snipers are going to be untouchable at 200km, nothing will live to make the trip out to them. Whats to be done about this? They now, by virtue of fitting, become untouchable due to the range ability (i.e. when you start getting even remotely close, they just warp out).
Thats why we have tacklers and now dicters to make sure tey don't escape. The battleships on your side as a chance to finish them off or escape. When you think about it, Battleships are quite vulnerable to faster ships.
actually, if you'd logged in and checked their changes on test, you would have seen the inties dying in droves trying to get to bs that were far away, many trying with near 0 success.
Yes, right now, inties burn out to the snipers, dictors too, but post change, it will take significantly longer to reach the same snipers, and since dictors are already constantly targeted upon approach and killed in droves, post nerf, they will be even worse off.
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 06:33:00 -
[457]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Regarding the Cruiser sized ship going faster then a frigate... maybe is a bit wrong a cruiser/BS go faster then a supposedellly interceptor ...
What part of this you dont understand? Nanopilot with snakes/rigs/officer fittings flying vagabond= 12k Nanopilot with snakes/rigs/officer fittings flying Interceptor= 16k Its kinda easy to understand aint it? just read a little.
Originally by: DeadDuck Regarding the impossibility of being killed .. well they can be killed and they actually die easaly. My only objection to nano fits is that most of the times the fight just doesn't happen ...
And you complain cose the nanogangs dont engage your huge blob? well lest think about it, "Captain the enemy comes to engage our 8 fast ships with 12 BS, 8 Cruisers, 2 Falcons, what do we do captain?" "we engagez! we dont want to let them down yarr!" <--- cose thats logical of course.
Originally by: Lusian Thats why we have tacklers and now dicters to make sure tey don't escape. The battleships on your side as a chance to finish them off or escape. When you think about it, Battleships are quite vulnerable to faster ships.
You just confirmed my theory about you being mentally impaired, you ask for nano nerf and now you say that tacklers can caught snippers... i bet 2 cents that you never in your life made a run to catch a sniper in an intie or a dictor, either you burn mwd and keep transversal or you die... yet with ships being slower now guess what will happen?? well actually leaving you to guess it might prove to much to your melon head.
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 08:00:00 -
[458]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 08:01:30
Originally by: Killer Rasta BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
Thank you for proving the point that nano-ships are overpowered
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design. If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races. If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning. That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning. ...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as perfectly reasonable ...just as they see it as PERFECTLY reasonable that fleets defending against them have to have multiple times their number
Your desperate focus on keeping your I-Win button prevents you from seeing the huge imbalance in current game mechanics in favor of nano-ships.... or rather, you probably DO realise it, but can't stand the prospect of losing that I-Win button that makes you seem like a great PvP'er. However, CCP sees it (probable even more clearly as us as they have a huge database to mine), and are giving nano that long overdue nerf.
Real PvP'ers will simply adapt... People who abused broken game mechanics to PRETEND they were PvP-gods will cry on the forum and threaten to emoragequit...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 08:26:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 08:30:51
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Killer Rasta BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
1. Tacklers aint special they are important in all forms of pvp and tackling should be essential for pvp fighting, you clowns just want blobs and f1-f8 to be the new style of pvp in eve cos its all you know from ratting.
2. You do not need the same number of rapiers, hyenas and huggins + dps ships but having a few tacklers would make a huge difference (ppl are not NPC rats so do not treat them like they are and expect them to sit still and let you shoot them). A fully mixed and versatile gang is always stronger than a single style of ships.
10 nano vs mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time.
Nano are a form of pvp roaming gang so fitting a pvp gang to properly combat then is how it should be. You cannot hit snipers unless you have other snipers and cannot kill them unless they are tackled and they have the ability to warp off if summat gets close, so what nerf range as well???.
All ships can fit nuets and webs and if ccp listens to its player base webs with range/str ratio scripts, mwd killing scram amopung other things will make killing ships about team work tackling and skill instead of blob and f1-f8.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.11 08:37:00 -
[460]
Edited by: Esmenet on 11/10/2008 08:38:10
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 08:07:51
Originally by: Killer Rasta BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
Lol you generally need to bring a gang tailored to fit your opponents regardless of if its nanos or something else. When you are a defender you know the fleet composition of your enemy and have every opportunity to do so. You will die just as horribly to a rr-BS gang with your noobblob of drakes and caracals.
The game is more fun if you need tacklers, ewar, tank, logistics and dps. Instead of the tank+spank strategy advocated on this forum.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:03:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Black Necris stuff
1st: Most of the times even outnumbering us they just don't engage. That's all. You don't even have to blob them ... TBH what I see is blobs of nano ships...
2nd: From what I've heard intys will continue to reach the 4/5k. Well that's more then enough to catch snipers. Intys were doing tackling long before the nano fits, and they were extremely good at it. You just need to know what you are doing that's all.
Maybe with this nerf we will start to see the extremely dangerous sniper eagles again that tbh almost disappeared in fleet battles.
________________ God is my Wingman |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:05:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Kerfira So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
Thank you for proving the point that nano-ships are overpowered
Your side complains so bitterly about blobbing, but continue to defend a broken game mechanic that makes blobbing necessary. That is completely inconsistent
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design. If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races. If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning. That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning. ...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable ...just as they see it as PERFECTLY reasonable that fleets defending against them have to have multiple times their number
Your desperate focus on keeping your I-Win button prevents you from seeing the huge imbalance in current game mechanics in favor of nano-ships.... or rather, you probably DO realise it, but can't stand the prospect of losing that I-Win button that makes you seem like a great PvP'er. However, CCP sees it (probable even more clearly as us as they have a huge database to mine), and are giving nano that long overdue nerf.
Real PvP'ers will simply adapt... People who abused broken game mechanics to PRETEND they were PvP-gods will cry on the forum and threaten to emoragequit...
Ok, just to be sure I understand what you have written:
Your unorganized gang of random ships get wtfbbqpwned by experienced, PvP devoted nano gang.
It is that what you complain about? Did you ever think it might be your fault that you have lost?
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Cdr Gimli
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:08:00 -
[463]
Quote: 1. Tacklers aint special they are important in all forms of pvp and tackling should be essential for pvp fighting, you clowns just want blobs and f1-f8 to be the new style of pvp in eve cos its all you know from ratting.
The tacklers you need against nano are very special! Just look at your proposed gang below!
Quote: 10 nano vs mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
This so called anti nano gang will be very hard to put together. Harder than the nano gang as most people rather skill for nano.
And there will be no nano kills for them as no nano gang will ever engage them. As I said a few posts before...the nano gang will decide if a fight takes place at all. They do not risk anything.
The other gang on the other hand will be quite easily forced to fight and they risk rather a lot (compared to nano) to fly around in 0.0 and that although this is a great gang setup.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:31:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
The tacklers you need against nano are very special! Just look at your proposed gang below!
Quote: 10 nano vs mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
I see a good mixed pvp gang whats so special about it wtf do you see?.
Originally by: Cdr Gimli This so called anti nano gang will be very hard to put together. Harder than the nano gang as most people rather skill for nano.
Im a pvper that lives in 0.0 and as such i have every ship listed above (and others like RR BS and snipers) ready and fitted in my hangar. That is called being prepared for combat, summat that every player in 0.0 should be.
Originally by: Cdr Gimli And there will be no nano kills for them as no nano gang will ever engage them. As I said a few posts before...the nano gang will decide if a fight takes place at all. They do not risk anything.
The choice not to engage is a individuals or gangs decision when they scout a hostile gang, blaming nano when any ship type from noob ship to titan can choose to not engage is a absurd argument.
Originally by: Cdr Gimli The other gang on the other hand will be quite easily forced to fight and they risk rather a lot (compared to nano) to fly around in 0.0 and that although this is a great gang setup.
The mixed gang is one of the strongest and most versatile type in the game and available to any reasonably sized corp or alliance if they make their members be properly prepared for combat by having a correct selection of pvp fitted ship in their hangar.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:33:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
This so called anti nano gang will be very hard to put together. Harder than the nano gang as most people rather skill for nano.
And there will be no nano kills for them as no nano gang will ever engage them. As I said a few posts before...the nano gang will decide if a fight takes place at all. They do not risk anything.
The other gang on the other hand will be quite easily forced to fight and they risk rather a lot (compared to nano) to fly around in 0.0 and that although this is a great gang setup.
It is rock-paper-scissors. All forms of tactic have their own use, their pros and cons - nanos are good for small gang warfare, mixed gangs are more suitable for larger forces, blobs are good for POS and large fleet warfare.
Following your logic, if people actually made an effort and setup their non-nano gangs properly, there would be no nano whining coz fast ships would be less of an 'issue'.
As you said yourself, once you remove nanos from warfare chain, larger gang warfare and blobs are the only option left...
Look at all those people who complain, how many of them have huggin, rapier and logistic ships in their gang? None of them I bet, and what about those hated nano pilots? Huggin/rapier is quite settled member of nano gangs. Why nerfing nano pilots that are actualy ones making an effort in their fighting and boosting unskilled gangs? Is that how the game should work? Punish those who make an effort and reward lazy?
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:45:00 -
[466]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:45:26
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Kerfira My post
Ok, just to be sure I understand what you have written:
Your unorganized gang of random ships get wtfbbqpwned by experienced, PvP devoted nano gang.
It is that what you complain about? Did you ever think it might be your fault that you have lost?
No, I'm afraid you can't see past your I-Win button to comprehend a serious argument (no doubt since it's a very large I-Win button).
The above observation is with skilled people in each of the gangs.
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not. This is a (VERY) faulty assumption made by all nano-pilots since as they're used to winning, they MUST be PvP-gods. It could in NO WAY be because they're abusing broken game mechanics.
Nano-pilots are no better or worse than other pilots! If you were as good as you SAY you are, then you wouldn't mind these changes, but simply go on killing anyway.
And even if all experienced pilots WERE using nano, this in itself would be proof that nano was overpowered. If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups.... So even if your argument about skill is correct, it just backfires and PROVES the nano-nerf reasons are valid!
Thanks for proving ONCE AGAIN, that nano'ing is unbalanced and that nano-pilots will make all kind of wild statements to keep their I-Win button.
Have a nice day
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:52:00 -
[467]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina 10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning. That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning. ...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design. If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races. If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:52:00 -
[468]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina 10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning. That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning. ...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design. If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races. If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:53:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Kerfira
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
If you bring slow BC with no tackle to fight a fast gang your a idiot, and the nano gang does not need to be pvp gads to beat you.
Originally by: Kerfira If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
A mixed gang including logistics, ewar, tackle and dmg is by far better than a pure nano setup, and yes that is exactly what experienced pilots use to fight other gangs.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:53:00 -
[470]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 10:14:29
Originally by: Kerfira
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
If you bring slow BC with no tackle to fight a fast gang your a idiot, and the nano gang does not need to be pvp gods to beat you.
Originally by: Kerfira If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
A mixed gang including logistics, ewar, tackle and dmg is by far better than a pure nano setup, and yes that is exactly what experienced pilots use to fight other gangs nano included.
The right tool for the right job, your problem is you want pve blobs to be the kill all fit for eve.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:01:00 -
[471]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 10:04:22
Originally by: Kerfira
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
30% tackle, 30% dmg dealer, 20% ewar, 20% rep..how is that not close to perfectly balanced as it covers every aspect of pvp... rep,ewar,tackle,dmg..did i miss summat?.
ECM and DAMPS can be used on any ship btw not just recons in fact cruise ravens or other smaller missile ships (if your roaming) make great dmg dealers in this setup as they can fit damps in their mids increasing the ewar in the gang.
Originally by: Kerfira
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Like what sort of gang (of similar numbers) would this setup have no chance against?.. capitals?, RR BS (NANO IS USELESS AGAINST THEM AS WELL).
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WTF YOUR TALKING ABOUT
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:01:00 -
[472]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 10:41:17
Originally by: Kerfira
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
30% tackle, 30% dmg dealer, 20% ewar, 20% rep..how is that not close to perfectly balanced as it covers every aspect of pvp... rep,ewar,tackle,dmg..did i miss summat?.
I cannot divide the 4 aspects (dmg,ewar,tackle,rep)exactly into 10 ships cos it comes out at 2.5 ships for each aspect of the gang (dmg,ewar,tackle,rep) and nobody i know will let me cut their ship in half.
ECM and DAMPS can be used on any ship btw not just recons in fact cruise ravens or other smaller missile ships (if your roaming) make great dmg dealers in this setup as they can fit damps in their mids increasing the ewar in the gang.
Its all about fitting for actual combat and working as a team instead of your f1-f8 idea of pvp.
Originally by: Kerfira
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Like what sort of gang (of similar numbers) would this setup have no chance against?.. capitals?, RR BS (NANO IS USELESS AGAINST THEM AS WELL).
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WTF YOUR TALKING ABOUT
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:36:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:45:26 No, I'm afraid you can't see past your I-Win button to comprehend a serious argument (no doubt since it's a very large I-Win button).
The above observation is with skilled people in each of the gangs.
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not. This is a (VERY) faulty assumption made by all nano-pilots since as they're used to winning, they MUST be PvP-gods. It could in NO WAY be because they're abusing broken game mechanics.
Nano-pilots are no better or worse than other pilots! If you were as good as you SAY you are, then you wouldn't mind these changes, but simply go on killing anyway.
And even if all experienced pilots WERE using nano, this in itself would be proof that nano was overpowered. If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups.... So even if your argument about skill is correct, it just backfires and PROVES the nano-nerf reasons are valid!
Thanks for proving ONCE AGAIN, that nano'ing is unbalanced and that nano-pilots will make all kind of wild statements to keep their I-Win button.
Have a nice day
As it was already said and proven by experience, mixed gang can easily counter nanos of equal gang size. Where is the 'I win button' then?
If they lose, I can't see any other option but their fault due being random setup/unskilled gang.
Different setups have different counters, it is called diversity. It seems more like it is you looking for 'I win button' - a gang that can beat any gang that can possibly encounter...
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:36:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:45:26 No, I'm afraid you can't see past your I-Win button to comprehend a serious argument (no doubt since it's a very large I-Win button).
The above observation is with skilled people in each of the gangs.
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not. This is a (VERY) faulty assumption made by all nano-pilots since as they're used to winning, they MUST be PvP-gods. It could in NO WAY be because they're abusing broken game mechanics.
Nano-pilots are no better or worse than other pilots! If you were as good as you SAY you are, then you wouldn't mind these changes, but simply go on killing anyway.
And even if all experienced pilots WERE using nano, this in itself would be proof that nano was overpowered. If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups.... So even if your argument about skill is correct, it just backfires and PROVES the nano-nerf reasons are valid!
Thanks for proving ONCE AGAIN, that nano'ing is unbalanced and that nano-pilots will make all kind of wild statements to keep their I-Win button.
Have a nice day
As it was already said and proven by experience, mixed gang can easily counter nanos of equal gang size. Where is the 'I win button' then?
If they lose, I can't see any other option but their fault due being random setup/unskilled gang.
Different setups have different counters, it is called diversity. It seems more like it is you looking for 'I win button' - a gang that can beat any gang that can possibly encounter...
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.10.11 11:03:00 -
[475]
First of the Blog at itself was very disapointing, there is not real reason to use a live dev blog if you donŠt actualy interact with Questions and leave the importent ones out or mostly unawnsered. A simple post in FAQ Style would be mutch better or a simple we working on it be more polite if you donŠt have awnsers to the important stuff ready at this point.
Second one, for the love of God can stop posting the Nano Crap over and over, it has been talked to death. Nano is one style of PVP, it is not the only style of PVP.
Your not uber because u use Nano and bringing speeds down to a level where the light Tank actualy is a drawback is a good thing and will seperate the 80% of the noobs that use Nano to get away, from the 20% of the realy good players at it(like in any other PVP Style aswell).
Third it is realy disapointing that nowhere in the Blog is everything about other PVP related things that realy get a shaft with the changes to but not related to nano.
Like close Range Setups, Blaster and AK Tracking issues when gooing close, Missle & Laser rebalancing, small ship vs Sniper balancing, tackling things solo with the weaker web in standard situations often named as piracy or defense against Drones or smaller ships vs big ones(since the 60% Web will fail you in this common PVP Situations now).
As a someone that flyes Blaster ships since 2 years, got nearly every Skill to 5 that makes them better this is very disapointing that you didnŠt mentioned the big and very constructive thread about it or awnsering qutestion about this issue. A Blaster ship that canŠt hit at his combat range or hold Targets down will be as useless as a unbonused Heavy Missle Ship is now against a common T2 Nano Fitting.
It it requires at the moment a ton of Skillpoints(where Nano is more broken at the module stacking not on the skills or ships) and ISK to even use a Blaster ship effective in PVP while not shooting only noobs and since the Laser and Torp boost, other ships dooing the same just better atm when itŠs not about solo PVP.
Again at all the Nano Pilotes out there you are not the only ones that get a nerf, you just to blind to see the other aspects of PVP that get heaviely affected by it to, so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting! ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.10.11 11:03:00 -
[476]
Edited by: The Djego on 11/10/2008 11:12:31 First of the Blog at itself was very disapointing, there is not real reason to use a live dev blog if you donŠt actualy interact with Questions and leave the importent ones out or mostly unawnsered. A simple post in FAQ Style would be mutch better or a simple we working on it be more polite if you donŠt have awnsers to the important stuff ready at this point.
Second one, for the love of God can we please stop posting the Nano Crap over and over, it has been talked to death. Nano is one style of PVP, it is not the only style of PVP.
Your not uber because u use Nano and bringing speeds down to a level where the light Tank actualy is a drawback is a good thing and will seperate the 80% of the noobs that use Nano to get away, from the 20% of the realy good players at it(like in any other PVP Style aswell).
Third it is realy disapointing that nowhere in the Blog is everything about other PVP related things that realy get a shaft with the changes to but not related to nano.
Like close Range Setups, Blaster and AK Tracking issues when gooing close, Missle & Laser rebalancing, small ship vs Sniper balancing, tackling things solo with the weaker web in standard situations often named as piracy or defense against Drones or smaller ships vs big ones(since the 60% Web will fail you in this common PVP Situations now).
As a someone that flyes Blaster ships since 2 years, got nearly every Skill to 5 that makes them better this is very disapointing that you didnŠt mentioned the big and very constructive thread about it or awnsering qutestion about this issue. A Blaster ship that canŠt hit at his combat range or hold Targets down will be as useless as a unbonused Heavy Missle Ship is now against a common T2 Nano Fitting.
It requires at the moment a ton of Skillpoints(where Nano is more broken at the module stacking not on the skills or ships) and ISK to even use a Blaster ship effective in PVP while not shooting only noobs and since the Laser and Torp boost, other ships dooing the same just better atm when itŠs not about solo PVP.
Again at all the Nano Pilotes out there you are not the only ones that get a nerf, you just to blind to see the other aspects of PVP that get heaviely affected by it to, so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting!
edit: typo ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.11 12:27:00 -
[477]
Originally by: The Djego
...so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting! edit: typo
dude, only guys avoiding other then nano aspects of this nerf are pro nerf guys. They are the only one shouting only one thing: "this nerf rulez, nano is overpowere".
All of those issues are beeing adressed by anty nerf guys, since we rerely fly only nano. --------- phew phew
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.11 12:27:00 -
[478]
Originally by: The Djego
...so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting! edit: typo
dude, only guys avoiding other then nano aspects of this nerf are pro nerf guys. They are the only one shouting only one thing: "this nerf rulez, nano is overpowere".
All of those issues are beeing adressed by anty nerf guys, since we rerely fly only nano. --------- phew phew
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.11 14:17:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina 10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning. That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning. ...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design. If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races. If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Are you mentally ******ed? Do you even PVP? The make up up his "anti-nano" gang is good for fighting ANY equal sized gang. If its got falcons, its able to likely jam 80% of the opposing group, no matter if they are nano's, rrbs, or what have you.
In fact, likely the only thing that 10 man gang wouldnt be a danger to would be a 10 man cap gang.
And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
Everybody here living in the "THERE WERE ROAMING GANGS BEFORE NANO'S" needs to step back and think for a bit. There was a LOT of stuff before nano's, and now...hold on, this will shock you....THE GAME HAS CHANGED MASSIVELY OVER THE YEARS.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Eliminating this is basically making combat a default picket line of ships just blasting away at each other, and you won't be able to roam simply by virtue of all the afk scouts, that as soon as your reported, jump bridging fleets, titan bridging fleets, and the super gay giant CVA style gate camps that will just obliterate any attempt at roaming gangs as they will no longer have the speed to get away.
Great you say. Riiight. Till the player base starts to quit because of it. EVE is special, but not so special that you should be bored to death because to even go roaming you need 50-60 guys. If players quit, it wont be "oh cool, can i have your stuff, and now we have less lag", it could end up with the current financial state of things in iceland as "we regret to inform you that due to a shrinking player base the EVE cluster will be closing as of blah blah date".
Sure, all of us PVP guys will adapt, we will change tactics, and adapt, and we will still TRY out the new system, but if its boring, or not fun, then likely as not, players may leave, and that is actually, despite all your trolling of "good riddance", bad for EVE
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.11 14:17:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina 10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning. That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning. ...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design. If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races. If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Are you mentally ******ed? Do you even PVP? The make up up his "anti-nano" gang is good for fighting ANY equal sized gang. If its got falcons, its able to likely jam 80% of the opposing group, no matter if they are nano's, rrbs, or what have you.
In fact, likely the only thing that 10 man gang wouldnt be a danger to would be a 10 man cap gang.
And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
Everybody here living in the "THERE WERE ROAMING GANGS BEFORE NANO'S" needs to step back and think for a bit. There was a LOT of stuff before nano's, and now...hold on, this will shock you....THE GAME HAS CHANGED MASSIVELY OVER THE YEARS.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Eliminating this is basically making combat a default picket line of ships just blasting away at each other, and you won't be able to roam simply by virtue of all the afk scouts, that as soon as your reported, jump bridging fleets, titan bridging fleets, and the super gay giant CVA style gate camps that will just obliterate any attempt at roaming gangs as they will no longer have the speed to get away.
Great you say. Riiight. Till the player base starts to quit because of it. EVE is special, but not so special that you should be bored to death because to even go roaming you need 50-60 guys. If players quit, it wont be "oh cool, can i have your stuff, and now we have less lag", it could end up with the current financial state of things in iceland as "we regret to inform you that due to a shrinking player base the EVE cluster will be closing as of blah blah date".
Sure, all of us PVP guys will adapt, we will change tactics, and adapt, and we will still TRY out the new system, but if its boring, or not fun, then likely as not, players may leave, and that is actually, despite all your trolling of "good riddance", bad for EVE
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 14:54:00 -
[481]
Edited by: Black Necris on 11/10/2008 14:57:07 The only thing i see here its stupid carebears complaining cose they are getting killed by experienced pilots.
Ratting and mining its not a good form of PVP its not fair for the rats and roids. On the other hand (and i place me as example) i had never fired a single mining laser in my eve life, i had ratted yes, to raise my sec status.
So as you can see i devote my entire eve time to PVP, therefore i got experience and my skills are focused towards going faster, hitting harder and from more range, and i hang around with people like me that are specialized in PVP wich helps me gain experience and boost my confidence. (shaking while pvp its gone for me now)
Then comes Joe Stupid, he devotes his time to mining and ratting, his skills are randomly trained, he barely can fit a ship, he hangs around with ppl like him and therefore his experienced in mining and ratting.
I DEMAND ALL YOU NANOWHINERS TO ANSWER ME THIS In an engagement between those two who you think would win? Hell in an engagement between 15 experienced dudes and 30 noob pilots, who you think will win??? even without nanoships... the experienced pilots will EAT the other gang by focusing fire and repping eachother, i have seen it happen.
AND THATS WITHOUT NANOS, so as you can see its not the nanoships whos overpowered, its the carebear whos undermined by his own lack of experience. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 14:54:00 -
[482]
Edited by: Black Necris on 11/10/2008 15:10:18 Edited by: Black Necris on 11/10/2008 14:57:07 The only thing i see here its stupid carebears complaining cose they are getting killed by experienced pilots.
Ratting and mining its not a good form of PVP its not fair for the rats and roids. On the other hand (and i place me as example) i had never fired a single mining laser in my eve life, i had ratted yes, to raise my sec status.
So as you can see i devote my entire eve time to PVP, therefore i got experience and my skills are focused towards going faster, hitting harder and from more range, and i hang around with people like me that are specialized in PVP wich helps me gain experience and boost my confidence. (shaking while pvp its gone for me now)
Then comes Joe Stupid, he devotes his time to mining and ratting, his skills are randomly trained, he barely can fit a ship, he hangs around with ppl like him and therefore his experienced in mining and ratting.
I DEMAND ALL YOU NANOWHINERS TO ANSWER ME THIS In an engagement between those two who you think would win? Hell in an engagement between 15 experienced dudes and 30 noob pilots, who you think will win??? even without nanoships... the experienced pilots will EAT the other gang by focusing fire and repping eachother, i have seen it happen.
AND THATS WITHOUT NANOS, so as you can see its not the nanoships whos overpowered, its the carebear whos undermined by his own lack of experience.
And BTW CCP, i already bought my cd of Warhammer online... keep pushing you stupid dorks and i might jump ships for what i care. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.11 15:58:00 -
[483]
Nano nerf is good. GJ ccp.
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Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.11 15:58:00 -
[484]
Nano nerf is good. GJ ccp.
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Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:03:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Black Necris
AND THATS WITHOUT NANOS, so as you can see its not the nanoships whos overpowered, its the carebear whos undermined by his own lack of experience.
And BTW CCP, i already bought my cd of Warhammer online... keep pushing you stupid dorks and i might jump ships for what i care.
...wait for it....waaiit foor it...CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?!
Since obviously only you are uber enough to PVP right and anyone else who thinks differently is a noob carebear. And of course you are so valuable EVE will fall apart if you should leave.
Does'nt this mindset ever get tiring?
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Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:03:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Black Necris
AND THATS WITHOUT NANOS, so as you can see its not the nanoships whos overpowered, its the carebear whos undermined by his own lack of experience.
And BTW CCP, i already bought my cd of Warhammer online... keep pushing you stupid dorks and i might jump ships for what i care.
...wait for it....waaiit foor it...CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?!
Since obviously only you are uber enough to PVP right and anyone else who thinks differently is a noob carebear. And of course you are so valuable EVE will fall apart if you should leave.
Does'nt this mindset ever get tiring?
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:38:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Victua
Originally by: Black Necris
AND THATS WITHOUT NANOS, so as you can see its not the nanoships whos overpowered, its the carebear whos undermined by his own lack of experience.
And BTW CCP, i already bought my cd of Warhammer online... keep pushing you stupid dorks and i might jump ships for what i care.
...wait for it....waaiit foor it...CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?!
Since obviously only you are uber enough to PVP right and anyone else who thinks differently is a noob carebear. And of course you are so valuable EVE will fall apart if you should leave.
Does'nt this mindset ever get tiring?
And you answer to my quesiton is that im uber to pvp? You know how to read? Ill put an example to you so maybe your monkey brain can understand what im trying to explain.
During the engagements vs the caldari milita we managed to take a gangs 3 times our size with small losses (this was done also by all experienced alliances who joined the militia). This happens not becose we where in a 'nano' gang, it happens because we where in a balanced gang that included EWAR, speed, comand ships, tanks, etc. and because we focused fire unlike the enemy gang, whos lack skills leadership, and experience proved to be fatal. ( you should see the fittings on the enemy gang, fittings to laugh about)
The point here is that no matters how much CCP nerfs there will always be whinners like you who cant win because you dont have pvp experience, you want to be left to rat and be abble to kill every ship that comes around with your IWIN button. This will never happen unless you LEARN THE ART OF PVP.
I dont claim im the god of pvp, i just state that the fact that i have been almost 3 years in 0.0 in known pvp alliances and with amazing Field Commanders, and that gives me an advantage versus the common sporadic pvper. Its a proven point that experience its a deciding factor in pvp.
To resume YOU CAN FIT A CALDARI NAVY RAVEN WITH OFFICER FITTINGS AND I CAN STILL KILL YOU WITH MY REGULAR RAVEN, ITS ALL ABOUT THE FITTINGS AND KNOWING THE SHIP.
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:38:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Victua
Originally by: Black Necris
AND THATS WITHOUT NANOS, so as you can see its not the nanoships whos overpowered, its the carebear whos undermined by his own lack of experience.
And BTW CCP, i already bought my cd of Warhammer online... keep pushing you stupid dorks and i might jump ships for what i care.
...wait for it....waaiit foor it...CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?!
Since obviously only you are uber enough to PVP right and anyone else who thinks differently is a noob carebear. And of course you are so valuable EVE will fall apart if you should leave.
Does'nt this mindset ever get tiring?
And you answer to my quesiton is that im uber to pvp? You know how to read? Ill put an example to you so maybe your monkey brain can understand what im trying to explain.
During the engagements vs the caldari milita we managed to take a gangs 3 times our size with small losses (this was done also by all experienced alliances who joined the militia). This happens not becose we where in a 'nano' gang, it happens because we where in a balanced gang that included EWAR, speed, comand ships, tanks, etc. and because we focused fire unlike the enemy gang, whos lack skills leadership, and experience proved to be fatal. ( you should see the fittings on the enemy gang, fittings to laugh about)
The point here is that no matters how much CCP nerfs there will always be whinners like you who cant win because you dont have pvp experience, you want to be left to rat and be abble to kill every ship that comes around with your IWIN button. This will never happen unless you LEARN THE ART OF PVP.
I dont claim im the god of pvp, i just state that the fact that i have been almost 3 years in 0.0 in known pvp alliances and with amazing Field Commanders, and that gives me an advantage versus the common sporadic pvper. Its a proven point that experience its a deciding factor in pvp.
To resume YOU CAN FIT A CALDARI NAVY RAVEN WITH OFFICER FITTINGS AND I CAN STILL KILL YOU WITH MY REGULAR RAVEN, ITS ALL ABOUT THE FITTINGS AND KNOWING THE SHIP.
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:55:00 -
[489]
Edited by: lecrotta on 11/10/2008 20:08:39
Originally by: Black Necris
I dont claim im the god of pvp, i just state that the fact that i have been almost 3 years in 0.0 in known pvp alliances and with amazing Field Commanders, and that gives me an advantage versus the common sporadic pvper. Its a proven point that experience its a deciding factor in pvp.
The problem is that PVE players that rat and run missions know exactly what resists to tank, exactly what ships to pop in what order and exactly what dmg type, ships and fittings to use. And when they try to do pvp....instead of the opposition sitting still like good little rats and being unthinking targets, they are against individuals who can think and counter the basic f1-f8 kind of combat these individuals are used to.
Now some PVERS see it as a challenge and work hard to learn and improve their individual and team work skills, they fill their hangars with a variety of PVP fitted ships so they are prepared to join any gang with a valuable and USEFUL asset instead of a basic PVE fitted piece of crap.
While others who are either afraid to try cos they may fail run to the forums and blame the game and call for nerfs that they hope will make PVP more like PVE.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:55:00 -
[490]
Edited by: lecrotta on 11/10/2008 20:47:53
Originally by: Black Necris
I dont claim im the god of pvp, i just state that the fact that i have been almost 3 years in 0.0 in known pvp alliances and with amazing Field Commanders, and that gives me an advantage versus the common sporadic pvper. Its a proven point that experience its a deciding factor in pvp.
The problem is that PVE players that rat and run missions know exactly what resists to tank, exactly what ships to pop in what order and exactly what dmg type, ships and fittings to use. And when they try to do pvp....instead of the opposition sitting still like good little rats and being unthinking targets, they are against individuals who can think and counter the basic f1-f8 kind of combat these individuals are used to.
Now some PVERS see it as a challenge and work hard to learn and improve their individual and team work skills, they fill their hangars with a variety of PVP fitted ships so they are prepared to join any gang with a valuable and USEFUL asset instead of a basic PVE fitted piece of crap.
While others who are either afraid to try cos they may fail run to the forums and blame the game and call for nerfs that they hope will make PVP more like PVE.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:56:00 -
[491]
Originally by: Black Necris
The point here is that no matters how much CCP nerfs there will always be whinners like you who cant win because you dont have pvp experience, you want to be left to rat and be abble to kill every ship that comes around with your IWIN button. This will never happen unless you LEARN THE ART OF PVP.
I dont claim im the god of pvp, i just state that the fact that i have been almost 3 years in 0.0 in known pvp alliances and with amazing Field Commanders, and that gives me an advantage versus the common sporadic pvper. Its a proven point that experience its a deciding factor in pvp.
To resume YOU CAN FIT A CALDARI NAVY RAVEN WITH OFFICER FITTINGS AND I CAN STILL KILL YOU WITH MY REGULAR RAVEN, ITS ALL ABOUT THE FITTINGS AND KNOWING THE SHIP.
Wow, 4 paragraphs to change nothing on your original mindset and stance. Mabe I can draw said picture to help. YOU know EVERYONE ELSE, as stated in your post, 'Does not know the ART of PVP like you'. And of course you (and those like you) do not claim to be gods of PVP, that would be immodest, you just spend 4 paragraphs attempting to establish dominance over someone you know nothing about yet can generalize in statements like 'you this, you that, Im right because this'.
Adding a statement like 'experience is more valuable than any settup' seems to hold value at first, but it does'nt take long to see through it as another attempt at self-grandizing due to your play time. Fact is, you can set your pretty raven up however you do or don't want too, your experience won't be the SOLE factor in deciding a fight. If that was the case we would'nt even have ship classes, just noob ships and we would say 'I haz more EXP, IWIN.' A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have. So be it.
You are right in that you have your experience, but factor for a moment that mabe, just mabe, others out there have experience as well, and you have never met them, and it may differ from yours. Ta Ta
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Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.11 19:56:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Black Necris
The point here is that no matters how much CCP nerfs there will always be whinners like you who cant win because you dont have pvp experience, you want to be left to rat and be abble to kill every ship that comes around with your IWIN button. This will never happen unless you LEARN THE ART OF PVP.
I dont claim im the god of pvp, i just state that the fact that i have been almost 3 years in 0.0 in known pvp alliances and with amazing Field Commanders, and that gives me an advantage versus the common sporadic pvper. Its a proven point that experience its a deciding factor in pvp.
To resume YOU CAN FIT A CALDARI NAVY RAVEN WITH OFFICER FITTINGS AND I CAN STILL KILL YOU WITH MY REGULAR RAVEN, ITS ALL ABOUT THE FITTINGS AND KNOWING THE SHIP.
Wow, 4 paragraphs to change nothing on your original mindset and stance. Mabe I can draw said picture to help. YOU know EVERYONE ELSE, as stated in your post, 'Does not know the ART of PVP like you'. And of course you (and those like you) do not claim to be gods of PVP, that would be immodest, you just spend 4 paragraphs attempting to establish dominance over someone you know nothing about yet can generalize in statements like 'you this, you that, Im right because this'.
Adding a statement like 'experience is more valuable than any settup' seems to hold value at first, but it does'nt take long to see through it as another attempt at self-grandizing due to your play time. Fact is, you can set your pretty raven up however you do or don't want too, your experience won't be the SOLE factor in deciding a fight. If that was the case we would'nt even have ship classes, just noob ships and we would say 'I haz more EXP, IWIN.' A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have. So be it.
You are right in that you have your experience, but factor for a moment that mabe, just mabe, others out there have experience as well, and you have never met them, and it may differ from yours. Ta Ta
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.11 21:21:00 -
[493]
Originally by: Victua A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have.
I'm sick & tired from the BS spitted on these boards. If you're actually able to risk your ass on line with your mouth, then I'm ready to bet 1 bil isk that one of my Raven alts pops your nub char (and I give you 4 weeks training, not 2) almost immediately.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.11 21:21:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Victua A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have.
I'm sick & tired from the BS spitted on these boards. If you're actually able to risk your ass on line with your mouth, then I'm ready to bet 1 bil isk that one of my Raven alts pops your nub char (and I give you 4 weeks training, not 2) almost immediately.
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 21:52:00 -
[495]
Originally by: Victua
Adding a statement like 'experience is more valuable than any settup' seems to hold value at first, but it does'nt take long to see through it as another attempt at self-grandizing due to your play time. Fact is, you can set your pretty raven up however you do or don't want too, your experience won't be the SOLE factor in deciding a fight. If that was the case we would'nt even have ship classes, just noob ships and we would say 'I haz more EXP, IWIN.' A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have. So be it.
Originally by: Victua You are right in that you have your experience, but factor for a moment that mabe, just mabe, others out there have experience as well, and you have never met them, and it may differ from yours. Ta Ta
whahahahahhaaaat??? ahahahhahahahahahha can anyone explain what hes trying to say here??
Originally by: Victua You are right in that you have your experience, but factor for a moment that mabe, just mabe, others out there have experience as well, and you have never met them, and it may differ from yours. Ta Ta
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 21:52:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Black Necris on 11/10/2008 21:56:38
Originally by: Victua
Adding a statement like 'experience is more valuable than any settup' seems to hold value at first, but it does'nt take long to see through it as another attempt at self-grandizing due to your play time. Fact is, you can set your pretty raven up however you do or don't want too, your experience won't be the SOLE factor in deciding a fight. If that was the case we would'nt even have ship classes, just noob ships and we would say 'I haz more EXP, IWIN.' A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have. So be it.
Originally by: Victua You are right in that you have your experience, but factor for a moment that mabe, just mabe, others out there have experience as well, and you have never met them, and it may differ from yours. Ta Ta
whahahahahhaaaat??? ahahahhahahahahahha can anyone explain what hes trying to say here??
Originally by: Victua You are right in that you have your experience, but factor for a moment that mabe, just mabe, others out there have experience as well, and you have never met them, and it may differ from yours. Ta Ta
CCP I UNDERSTAND HIM NOW!! I DEMANDZ IWIN BUTTON TO BE DEPLOYED IN NEXT PATCH! POWER TO THE CAREBEAR!
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.11 22:19:00 -
[497]
Edited by: Victua on 11/10/2008 22:25:06 Black Necris, you have spent about three pages of this topic whining about your style of play and how everyone else sucks. Actualy, alot of people on this topic have taken the position of 'My way is the ONLY way and you are a noob if you don't see it'. I have been around longer than most have if its 'play experience' you use as standard.
Bottom line on this topic is the Devs, yes, those guys who came up with everything in the EVE universe you are trying to claim as your own, are saying this is not how it was supposed to be, and they are going to change it. Its not the first change ever. I recall another big deal was cap ships, and all those DOOM!@!1 posts about how they were going to make everyone else obsolete, and t2, and cloaking ect ect ect. Fact is changes happen and people get over it or die from it. EVE will continue, with or without you or anyone else to LITTLE to actualy DO something other than cry 'ME Too BIG to be WRONG'
Edit: BTW, work on your posting skillz, I know they are hard to buy on ebay, but they help when selecting image sizes for posting, and make forum mods happier people.
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Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2008.10.11 22:19:00 -
[498]
Edited by: Victua on 11/10/2008 22:25:06 Black Necris, you have spent about three pages of this topic whining about your style of play and how everyone else sucks. Actualy, alot of people on this topic have taken the position of 'My way is the ONLY way and you are a noob if you don't see it'. I have been around longer than most have if its 'play experience' you use as standard.
Bottom line on this topic is the Devs, yes, those guys who came up with everything in the EVE universe you are trying to claim as your own, are saying this is not how it was supposed to be, and they are going to change it. Its not the first change ever. I recall another big deal was cap ships, and all those DOOM!@!1 posts about how they were going to make everyone else obsolete, and t2, and cloaking ect ect ect. Fact is changes happen and people get over it or die from it. EVE will continue, with or without you or anyone else to LITTLE to actualy DO something other than cry 'ME Too BIG to be WRONG'
Edit: BTW, work on your posting skillz, I know they are hard to buy on ebay, but they help when selecting image sizes for posting, and make forum mods happier people.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.12 00:06:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Victua Fact is changes happen and people get over it or die from it. EVE will continue, with or without you or anyone else
See, your actually wrong here, because yes, the Devs can make the changes they want, but if they change too much, that ****es off too many players, then no, EVE will not continue.
Don't believe me? What happened to that carrier nerf that got the 100+ page "no f'n way" response from the players? Never saw daylight.
Or how bout SWG, another prime example of players telling the Devs what they wanted, or didn't want to pay for, and the Dev's going oh well, were doing it anyway. Worked out well for them.
So yea, its their game, and they can do what they want, but if the players don't like it, they will leave, AND, if enough of them leave, people like YOU won't get to play EVE anymore either.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.12 00:06:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Victua Fact is changes happen and people get over it or die from it. EVE will continue, with or without you or anyone else
See, your actually wrong here, because yes, the Devs can make the changes they want, but if they change too much, that ****es off too many players, then no, EVE will not continue.
Don't believe me? What happened to that carrier nerf that got the 100+ page "no f'n way" response from the players? Never saw daylight.
Or how bout SWG, another prime example of players telling the Devs what they wanted, or didn't want to pay for, and the Dev's going oh well, were doing it anyway. Worked out well for them.
So yea, its their game, and they can do what they want, but if the players don't like it, they will leave, AND, if enough of them leave, people like YOU won't get to play EVE anymore either.
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Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.12 00:51:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Victua Edited by: Victua on 11/10/2008 22:25:06 Black Necris, you have spent about three pages of this topic whining about your style of play and how everyone else sucks. Actualy, alot of people on this topic have taken the position of 'My way is the ONLY way and you are a noob if you don't see it'. I have been around longer than most have if its 'play experience' you use as standard.
Bottom line on this topic is the Devs, yes, those guys who came up with everything in the EVE universe you are trying to claim as your own, are saying this is not how it was supposed to be, and they are going to change it. Its not the first change ever. I recall another big deal was cap ships, and all those DOOM!@!1 posts about how they were going to make everyone else obsolete, and t2, and cloaking ect ect ect. Fact is changes happen and people get over it or die from it. EVE will continue, with or without you or anyone else to LITTLE to actualy DO something other than cry 'ME Too BIG to be WRONG'
Edit: BTW, work on your posting skillz, I know they are hard to buy on ebay, but they help when selecting image sizes for posting, and make forum mods happier people.
I just dont seem to understand your point at all... you acuse me of being overconfident, and you claim that "the day of the carebear" is coming, yet you fail to provide any intelligent statement defending your cause.
PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY
I claim that i and any other experienced pilot (and there are thousands of pilots more experienced than myself) can kill with ease any guy who had spent his evelife carebearing. I claim this to be possible due to experience and supperior tactics.
I dont know about demographics of the game tbh, but i can asume at least a 70% of the community spends his time mining, ratting, producing, inventing, trading, hauling, mission running, etc. The way i asume this is just by looking at the map and searching for active pilots, a search will demonstrate that most of the active pilots are in empire space protected by Concord.
On the other hand, the pilots who spend his time in 0.0 know that its either you learn pvp or you get WTFPWNED, if you pass your time doing something you become expert at it, a simple fact of life.
Now you suggest that this "assumed" 70% carebearish of the population should have a chance at pvp without skills/experience to back them up, you see the stupidity in what you suggest?
Why in the name of baby raptorjesus should a guy with 25 mill skill points in mining/production/invention should be abble to reppel a guy with the same ammount of skill points in gunnery/navigation/spaceship command??
Answer me that and ill be a happy panda. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 00:51:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Victua Edited by: Victua on 11/10/2008 22:25:06 Black Necris, you have spent about three pages of this topic whining about your style of play and how everyone else sucks. Actualy, alot of people on this topic have taken the position of 'My way is the ONLY way and you are a noob if you don't see it'. I have been around longer than most have if its 'play experience' you use as standard.
Bottom line on this topic is the Devs, yes, those guys who came up with everything in the EVE universe you are trying to claim as your own, are saying this is not how it was supposed to be, and they are going to change it. Its not the first change ever. I recall another big deal was cap ships, and all those DOOM!@!1 posts about how they were going to make everyone else obsolete, and t2, and cloaking ect ect ect. Fact is changes happen and people get over it or die from it. EVE will continue, with or without you or anyone else to LITTLE to actualy DO something other than cry 'ME Too BIG to be WRONG'
Edit: BTW, work on your posting skillz, I know they are hard to buy on ebay, but they help when selecting image sizes for posting, and make forum mods happier people.
I just dont seem to understand your point at all... you acuse me of being overconfident, and you claim that "the day of the carebear" is coming, yet you fail to provide any intelligent statement defending your cause.
PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY
I claim that i and any other experienced pilot (and there are thousands of pilots more experienced than myself) can kill with ease any guy who had spent his evelife carebearing. I claim this to be possible due to experience and supperior tactics.
I dont know about demographics of the game tbh, but i can asume at least a 70% of the community spends his time mining, ratting, producing, inventing, trading, hauling, mission running, etc. The way i asume this is just by looking at the map and searching for active pilots, a search will demonstrate that most of the active pilots are in empire space protected by Concord.
On the other hand, the pilots who spend his time in 0.0 know that its either you learn pvp or you get WTFPWNED, if you pass your time doing something you become expert at it, a simple fact of life.
Now you suggest that this "assumed" 70% carebearish of the population should have a chance at pvp without skills/experience to back them up, you see the stupidity in what you suggest?
Why in the name of baby raptorjesus should a guy with 25 mill skill points in mining/production/invention should be abble to reppel a guy with the same ammount of skill points in gunnery/navigation/spaceship command??
Answer me that and ill be a happy panda. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 03:00:00 -
[503]
Sebea - I agree that the player base is the driving force behind any MMORP(?)G, However I don't see how my posts or positions contradict what you said. From what I've seen outside these forums and within, MOST of the playerbase is actualy in different levels of agreement with the Devs on the issue that the nanofad must be addressed. The only disenting opinions I've seem to be from people who have had great success with the current system and don't want to see it changed. Most are quite vocal about it and somewhat illogical on so many different levels. Bottom line is this is not truely an unpopular planned change and will not break the game IN COMPARISON to past 'pending doom' issues we have had. (BTW - What does 'players like YOU' supposed to mean? Do I know you? Do you know ME for that matter?)
As far as Black Necris goes, 'day of the carebear is comming'? Give me a freak'n break. You seem have a highschool level writing level, but a 12 year old comprehention. Leaving me to believe you are either another troll, or really lack the ability to process outside viewpoints. I tried to be civil with you, giving a benifit of doubt. With this consider that exausted and I will reply no more to anything you post:
Who has ever claimed that everyone should beable to do everything? Skills are only so much to EVE, PLAYER experience is very valuable as anyone who has ever ran into a 'Ebay char' or secondhand high SP char can attest to. And your stated situations are true. You can't run into an unfamiliar situation and expect to be on even playing field. That does'nt mean someone who has missioned, conducted indy operations ect ect for years knows nothing of PvP and could'nt be expected to do ANYTHING. Due to a differentated class system for ships and mods even a much lower SP and real EXP char can have great effects and even defeat 'better' players. I doubt anyone will say thats not the case.
To the topic, the speed balancing will NOT change PvP that much for people who know alot about it as you claim to. If anything I think it will make it harder for the 'Y'arr wannabes' and 'Angry Carebears' you talk of as they benifit the most from the current system.
I have no idea what part of my previous points became 'I love Carebears and they deserve Pew Pew power too'. In my experience, a 'recent convert' to PvP usualy runs along the same training path of 'MWD MWD MWD nanonanonanonano' for a reason, and thats because it is the lowest risk, highest payoff method and quite popular. My personal belief is it should be abit more complex than that.
Have a nice day
|
Victua
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 03:00:00 -
[504]
Sebea - I agree that the player base is the driving force behind any MMORP(?)G, However I don't see how my posts or positions contradict what you said. From what I've seen outside these forums and within, MOST of the playerbase is actualy in different levels of agreement with the Devs on the issue that the nanofad must be addressed. The only disenting opinions I've seem to be from people who have had great success with the current system and don't want to see it changed. Most are quite vocal about it and somewhat illogical on so many different levels. Bottom line is this is not truely an unpopular planned change and will not break the game IN COMPARISON to past 'pending doom' issues we have had. (BTW - What does 'players like YOU' supposed to mean? Do I know you? Do you know ME for that matter?)
As far as Black Necris goes, 'day of the carebear is comming'? Give me a freak'n break. You seem have a highschool level writing level, but a 12 year old comprehention. Leaving me to believe you are either another troll, or really lack the ability to process outside viewpoints. I tried to be civil with you, giving a benifit of doubt. With this consider that exausted and I will reply no more to anything you post:
Who has ever claimed that everyone should beable to do everything? Skills are only so much to EVE, PLAYER experience is very valuable as anyone who has ever ran into a 'Ebay char' or secondhand high SP char can attest to. And your stated situations are true. You can't run into an unfamiliar situation and expect to be on even playing field. That does'nt mean someone who has missioned, conducted indy operations ect ect for years knows nothing of PvP and could'nt be expected to do ANYTHING. Due to a differentated class system for ships and mods even a much lower SP and real EXP char can have great effects and even defeat 'better' players. I doubt anyone will say thats not the case.
To the topic, the speed balancing will NOT change PvP that much for people who know alot about it as you claim to. If anything I think it will make it harder for the 'Y'arr wannabes' and 'Angry Carebears' you talk of as they benifit the most from the current system.
I have no idea what part of my previous points became 'I love Carebears and they deserve Pew Pew power too'. In my experience, a 'recent convert' to PvP usualy runs along the same training path of 'MWD MWD MWD nanonanonanonano' for a reason, and thats because it is the lowest risk, highest payoff method and quite popular. My personal belief is it should be abit more complex than that.
Have a nice day
|
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 04:40:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Victua Fact is, you can set your pretty raven up however you do or don't want too, your experience won't be the SOLE factor in deciding a fight. If that was the case we would'nt even have ship classes, just noob ships and we would say 'I haz more EXP, IWIN.' A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have.
THIS "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 04:40:00 -
[506]
Edited by: Black Necris on 12/10/2008 04:46:12
Originally by: Victua Fact is, you can set your pretty raven up however you do or don't want too, your experience won't be the SOLE factor in deciding a fight. If that was the case we would'nt even have ship classes, just noob ships and we would say 'I haz more EXP, IWIN.' A noob with 2 weeks training time can turn that raven into a useless hunk of metal while being total invulnerable to any missiles or drones it may have.
THIS
(and btw i confused you with lusian) "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Amandi Casimi
Amarr Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 07:12:00 -
[507]
I do not understand why CCP has ideas to drasticly change the way the game is now. Minor tweaking is what is needed, not huge changes.
What I propose is simple. It will really slow down alot of the ships out there that right now go way to fast. And honestly guys... what threat is a Crow that does 20km/s? Ever fought one? THey can't keep you tackled, and they do such bad DPS, if you can't tank it or run away from it... well... that is quite sad.
The problem is with the larger ships going speeds that seems like they were never intended for. And the fix is so simple really, I don't see why CCP hasn't seen it before, and just implemented it.
Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate hulls. This will allow the small ships that are intended to be fast, to remain fast. And will put a damp on the ships with the serious problems... the Nano-HAC/Recon/Battlecruiser. It will bring them into line with where they should be, solving most of the issues people complain about.
Think about it. An Ishtar or Vagabond will have a much harder time running back to a gate to jump if they arn't nano'ed up. Vagabonds won't catch ceptors anymore, and more ships will have to be setup to stand and fight, rather then setup to run away.
Don't overthink this. Don't go to far in your changes. You will not change the mentality of most of the people in Eve. People will still look for low-risk engagements, regardless of whatever changes you bring. And if you change the game so much that you do make low-risk PvP almost impossible, you will lose countless subscribers.
So again... simple really. Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate Hulls... and your worries will be over. (If you wanna nerf snake sets and boosters a tad too, probably wouldn't hurt to bad...) -------------------------
Let neutrals be neutrals.
|
Amandi Casimi
Amarr Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 07:12:00 -
[508]
I do not understand why CCP has ideas to drasticly change the way the game is now. Minor tweaking is what is needed, not huge changes.
What I propose is simple. It will really slow down alot of the ships out there that right now go way to fast. And honestly guys... what threat is a Crow that does 20km/s? Ever fought one? THey can't keep you tackled, and they do such bad DPS, if you can't tank it or run away from it... well... that is quite sad.
The problem is with the larger ships going speeds that seems like they were never intended for. And the fix is so simple really, I don't see why CCP hasn't seen it before, and just implemented it.
Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate hulls. This will allow the small ships that are intended to be fast, to remain fast. And will put a damp on the ships with the serious problems... the Nano-HAC/Recon/Battlecruiser. It will bring them into line with where they should be, solving most of the issues people complain about.
Think about it. An Ishtar or Vagabond will have a much harder time running back to a gate to jump if they arn't nano'ed up. Vagabonds won't catch ceptors anymore, and more ships will have to be setup to stand and fight, rather then setup to run away.
Don't overthink this. Don't go to far in your changes. You will not change the mentality of most of the people in Eve. People will still look for low-risk engagements, regardless of whatever changes you bring. And if you change the game so much that you do make low-risk PvP almost impossible, you will lose countless subscribers.
So again... simple really. Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate Hulls... and your worries will be over. (If you wanna nerf snake sets and boosters a tad too, probably wouldn't hurt to bad...) -------------------------
Let neutrals be neutrals.
|
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 07:28:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Amandi Casimi I do not understand why CCP has ideas to drasticly change the way the game is now. Minor tweaking is what is needed, not huge changes.
What I propose is simple. It will really slow down alot of the ships out there that right now go way to fast. And honestly guys... what threat is a Crow that does 20km/s? Ever fought one? THey can't keep you tackled, and they do such bad DPS, if you can't tank it or run away from it... well... that is quite sad.
The problem is with the larger ships going speeds that seems like they were never intended for. And the fix is so simple really, I don't see why CCP hasn't seen it before, and just implemented it.
Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate hulls. This will allow the small ships that are intended to be fast, to remain fast. And will put a damp on the ships with the serious problems... the Nano-HAC/Recon/Battlecruiser. It will bring them into line with where they should be, solving most of the issues people complain about.
Think about it. An Ishtar or Vagabond will have a much harder time running back to a gate to jump if they arn't nano'ed up. Vagabonds won't catch ceptors anymore, and more ships will have to be setup to stand and fight, rather then setup to run away.
Don't overthink this. Don't go to far in your changes. You will not change the mentality of most of the people in Eve. People will still look for low-risk engagements, regardless of whatever changes you bring. And if you change the game so much that you do make low-risk PvP almost impossible, you will lose countless subscribers.
So again... simple really. Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate Hulls... and your worries will be over. (If you wanna nerf snake sets and boosters a tad too, probably wouldn't hurt to bad...)
Amandi your post its an intelligent one and your proposal its logical, yet i dont agree in "nerfing" snakes, why should my 1 billion investment be hurt to benefit ppl who dont want to invest in their pvp. Snakes its not the IWIN button neither is nanos or overdrives.
What im trying to explain is that im putting my isk on my ship, and i deserve better than some one whos not investing in it. Think of it in RL:
A guy who buys an used sedan and the guy that saves his money and buys a maserati. In what world is it logical for the guy in the sedan to beat the maserati?
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Black Necris
Minmatar Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 07:28:00 -
[510]
Originally by: Amandi Casimi I do not understand why CCP has ideas to drasticly change the way the game is now. Minor tweaking is what is needed, not huge changes.
What I propose is simple. It will really slow down alot of the ships out there that right now go way to fast. And honestly guys... what threat is a Crow that does 20km/s? Ever fought one? THey can't keep you tackled, and they do such bad DPS, if you can't tank it or run away from it... well... that is quite sad.
The problem is with the larger ships going speeds that seems like they were never intended for. And the fix is so simple really, I don't see why CCP hasn't seen it before, and just implemented it.
Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate hulls. This will allow the small ships that are intended to be fast, to remain fast. And will put a damp on the ships with the serious problems... the Nano-HAC/Recon/Battlecruiser. It will bring them into line with where they should be, solving most of the issues people complain about.
Think about it. An Ishtar or Vagabond will have a much harder time running back to a gate to jump if they arn't nano'ed up. Vagabonds won't catch ceptors anymore, and more ships will have to be setup to stand and fight, rather then setup to run away.
Don't overthink this. Don't go to far in your changes. You will not change the mentality of most of the people in Eve. People will still look for low-risk engagements, regardless of whatever changes you bring. And if you change the game so much that you do make low-risk PvP almost impossible, you will lose countless subscribers.
So again... simple really. Restrict Overdrives, Nanofibers, Polycarbs, and Aux Thrusters to Destroyer and Frigate Hulls... and your worries will be over. (If you wanna nerf snake sets and boosters a tad too, probably wouldn't hurt to bad...)
Amandi your post its an intelligent one and your proposal its logical, yet i dont agree in "nerfing" snakes, why should my 1 billion investment be hurt to benefit ppl who dont want to invest in their pvp. Snakes its not the IWIN button neither is nanos or overdrives.
What im trying to explain is that im putting my isk on my ship, and i deserve better than some one whos not investing in it. Think of it in RL:
A guy who buys an used sedan and the guy that saves his money and buys a maserati. In what world is it logical for the guy in the sedan to beat the maserati?
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
|
lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 09:37:00 -
[511]
Edited by: lebrata on 12/10/2008 09:43:40
The very fact that ppl are looking at removing options like speed instead of making additions that would take skill and team work to be effective against speed shows how much this idea is in favor of the blob F1-F8 i-win buttons PVE crowd.
Web range/strength scripts (like ammo has dmg/range) and the mwd killing scram are additions that would leave killing fast ships in the hands of players and much preferable to just removing the option from the game along with the usefulness and any survivability of almost all cruiser hulls and all destroyer and frig hulls in gang combat.
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lebrata
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 09:37:00 -
[512]
Edited by: lebrata on 12/10/2008 09:43:40
The very fact that ppl are looking at removing options like speed instead of making additions that would take skill and team work to be effective against speed shows how much this idea is in favor of the blob F1-F8 i-win buttons PVE crowd.
Web range/strength scripts (like ammo has dmg/range) and the mwd killing scram are additions that would leave killing fast ships in the hands of players and much preferable to just removing the option from the game along with the usefulness and any survivability of almost all cruiser hulls and all destroyer and frig hulls in gang combat.
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:33:00 -
[513]
Edited by: Kerfira on 12/10/2008 10:36:57
Originally by: Sebea Are you mentally ******ed?
Ahhhh, the personal attack.... Usually translates to "I know you're right, and can't argument against what you're saying, but I hate your conclusions!"
Originally by: Sebea And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
You are (like all other nano-abusers) completely missing the point (deliberately, of.c.)....
Originally by: Kerfira You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
The point was (of.c. you already know that) that while Rapiers are perfectly good tacklers against any ships, NO OTHER TACKLER is effective against nano-ships. So basically nano'ing has made obsolete any other tackler! Balanced???
There are what, 100's of different ship types in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 30% of ONE of these? There are about ~12 difference classes of combat ships in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 50% of ONE of these?
Seriously, you should step out from behind your I-Win button too. Your view is SO skewed by your nano'ing that you can't distinguish between what is good for you and what is good for the game....
I've flown nano, and I've flown against nanos. The main difference is that with nano, I didn't run any real risk when engaging. Sure, once in a rare while you were unlucky and got killed, but K/D ratio was massively better than non-nano. When not nano'ing, engaging meant risk. You could no longer depend on a quick tap of the MWD button to get you out of web range before your opponent could even lock.
In a nano-ship, killing is just too easy and riskless compared to other setups. For game-balance, this absolutely has to be changed. In an ideal EVE world, all ships and fittings should be equally valueble. This is never going to be the case of.c., but when a glaring imbalance like nano'ing is identified, CCP is doing the right thing in snuffing it out.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:33:00 -
[514]
Edited by: Kerfira on 12/10/2008 10:36:57
Originally by: Sebea Are you mentally ******ed?
Ahhhh, the personal attack.... Usually translates to "I know you're right, and can't argument against what you're saying, but I hate your conclusions!"
Originally by: Sebea And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
You are (like all other nano-abusers) completely missing the point (deliberately, of.c.)....
Originally by: Kerfira You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
The point was (of.c. you already know that) that while Rapiers are perfectly good tacklers against any ships, NO OTHER TACKLER is effective against nano-ships. So basically nano'ing has made obsolete any other tackler! Balanced???
There are what, 100's of different ship types in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 30% of ONE of these? There are about ~12 difference classes of combat ships in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 50% of ONE of these?
Seriously, you should step out from behind your I-Win button too. Your view is SO skewed by your nano'ing that you can't distinguish between what is good for you and what is good for the game....
I've flown nano, and I've flown against nanos. The main difference is that with nano, I didn't run any real risk when engaging. Sure, once in a rare while you were unlucky and got killed, but K/D ratio was massively better than non-nano. When not nano'ing, engaging meant risk. You could no longer depend on a quick tap of the MWD button to get you out of web range before your opponent could even lock.
In a nano-ship, killing is just too easy and riskless compared to other setups. For game-balance, this absolutely has to be changed. In an ideal EVE world, all ships and fittings should be equally valueble. This is never going to be the case of.c., but when a glaring imbalance like nano'ing is identified, CCP is doing the right thing in snuffing it out.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:37:00 -
[515]
I hear Jumpgate Evolution looks good.
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Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:37:00 -
[516]
I hear Jumpgate Evolution looks good.
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Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 11:02:00 -
[517]
Edited by: Murina on 12/10/2008 11:03:23
Originally by: Kerfira
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
30% tackle, 30% dmg dealer, 20% ewar, 20% rep..how is that not close to perfectly balanced as it covers every aspect of pvp... rep,ewar,tackle,dmg..did i miss summat?.
ECM and DAMPS can be used on any ship btw not just recons in fact cruise ravens or other smaller missile ships (if your roaming) make great dmg dealers in this setup as they can fit damps in their mids increasing the ewar in the gang.
Originally by: Kerfira The point was (of.c. you already know that) that while Rapiers are perfectly good tacklers against any ships, NO OTHER TACKLER is effective against nano-ships. So basically nano'ing has made obsolete any other tackler! Balanced???
Rapiers make one of the best tacklers against most forms of gangs in the game due to their inherent web bonus but this gang setup can use interceptors or a lot of other ship classes as tacklers because it relies on the ecm and logistic (skill and teamwork) to keep them alive while they tackle.
You are so blind, inexperienced about pvp i almost think your aware of these simple facts and tactics against nano but are avoiding them just to screw the game over and turn pvp into a static pve affair.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.12 11:02:00 -
[518]
Edited by: Murina on 12/10/2008 14:02:01
Originally by: Kerfira
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range) You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
30% tackle, 30% dmg dealer, 20% ewar, 20% rep..how is that not close to perfectly balanced as it covers every aspect of pvp... rep,ewar,tackle,dmg..did i miss summat?.
ECM and DAMPS can be used on any ship not just recons, in fact cruise ravens (or other smaller missile ships if your roaming) make great dmg dealers in this setup as they can fit damps in their mids increasing the ewar in the gang.
Originally by: Kerfira The point was (of.c. you already know that) that while Rapiers are perfectly good tacklers against any ships, NO OTHER TACKLER is effective against nano-ships. So basically nano'ing has made obsolete any other tackler! Balanced???
Rapiers make one of the best tacklers in the game against most forms of gangs in the game due to their inherent web bonus but a pvp fitted gang setup properly can use interceptors or a lot of other ship classes as tacklers because it relies on the ECM and logistic ships using skill/teamwork to keep the tacklers alive while they tackle.
You are so blind, inexperienced, stupidly one dimensional and self absorbed about pvp and nano i almost think your aware of these simple facts and team/gang tactics against nano and other styles but are avoiding the truth just to screw the game over and turn pvp into a static pve type of affair.
So what is it?......are you just utterly inexperienced and unwilling to learn or are you a angry carebear who tried to learn pvp failed and are now using the only thing you have left to attack skilled pvpers.......nerfs?.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.12 13:42:00 -
[519]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 12/10/2008 10:36:57
Originally by: Sebea Are you mentally ******ed?
Ahhhh, the personal attack.... Usually translates to "I know you're right, and can't argument against what you're saying, but I hate your conclusions!"
Originally by: Sebea And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
You are (like all other nano-abusers) completely missing the point (deliberately, of.c.)....
Originally by: Kerfira You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
The point was (of.c. you already know that) that while Rapiers are perfectly good tacklers against any ships, NO OTHER TACKLER is effective against nano-ships. So basically nano'ing has made obsolete any other tackler! Balanced???
There are what, 100's of different ship types in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 30% of ONE of these? There are about ~12 difference classes of combat ships in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 50% of ONE of these?
Seriously, you should step out from behind your I-Win button too. Your view is SO skewed by your nano'ing that you can't distinguish between what is good for you and what is good for the game....
I've flown nano, and I've flown against nanos. The main difference is that with nano, I didn't run any real risk when engaging. Sure, once in a rare while you were unlucky and got killed, but K/D ratio was massively better than non-nano. When not nano'ing, engaging meant risk. You could no longer depend on a quick tap of the MWD button to get you out of web range before your opponent could even lock.
In a nano-ship, killing is just too easy and riskless compared to other setups. For game-balance, this absolutely has to be changed. In an ideal EVE world, all ships and fittings should be equally valueble. This is never going to be the case of.c., but when a glaring imbalance like nano'ing is identified, CCP is doing the right thing in snuffing it out.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Do you know why people keep personally attacking you? Cause your so ignorant of basic facts in the game, and you keep repeating the same stupid things over like some mentally ******ed parrot.
Were all laughing at you, I've never flown a rapier, on any account i own, and yet somehow, magically, I've managed to tackle nano ships. I know its shocking.
See, people are presenting valid arguments to your post, but your just brushing over them like they aren't there.
So people just start making fun of you for your continued stonewalling ignorance.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.12 13:42:00 -
[520]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 12/10/2008 10:36:57
Originally by: Sebea Are you mentally ******ed?
Ahhhh, the personal attack.... Usually translates to "I know you're right, and can't argument against what you're saying, but I hate your conclusions!"
Originally by: Sebea And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
You are (like all other nano-abusers) completely missing the point (deliberately, of.c.)....
Originally by: Kerfira You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
The point was (of.c. you already know that) that while Rapiers are perfectly good tacklers against any ships, NO OTHER TACKLER is effective against nano-ships. So basically nano'ing has made obsolete any other tackler! Balanced???
There are what, 100's of different ship types in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 30% of ONE of these? There are about ~12 difference classes of combat ships in EVE, and yet you find it perfectly natural that an effective roaming gang has to include 50% of ONE of these?
Seriously, you should step out from behind your I-Win button too. Your view is SO skewed by your nano'ing that you can't distinguish between what is good for you and what is good for the game....
I've flown nano, and I've flown against nanos. The main difference is that with nano, I didn't run any real risk when engaging. Sure, once in a rare while you were unlucky and got killed, but K/D ratio was massively better than non-nano. When not nano'ing, engaging meant risk. You could no longer depend on a quick tap of the MWD button to get you out of web range before your opponent could even lock.
In a nano-ship, killing is just too easy and riskless compared to other setups. For game-balance, this absolutely has to be changed. In an ideal EVE world, all ships and fittings should be equally valueble. This is never going to be the case of.c., but when a glaring imbalance like nano'ing is identified, CCP is doing the right thing in snuffing it out.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Do you know why people keep personally attacking you? Cause your so ignorant of basic facts in the game, and you keep repeating the same stupid things over like some mentally ******ed parrot.
Were all laughing at you, I've never flown a rapier, on any account i own, and yet somehow, magically, I've managed to tackle nano ships. I know its shocking.
See, people are presenting valid arguments to your post, but your just brushing over them like they aren't there.
So people just start making fun of you for your continued stonewalling ignorance.
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Amandi Casimi
Amarr Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.12 16:08:00 -
[521]
Originally by: Black Necris
Amandi your post its an intelligent one and your proposal its logical, yet i dont agree in "nerfing" snakes, why should my 1 billion investment be hurt to benefit ppl who dont want to invest in their pvp. Snakes its not the IWIN button neither is nanos or overdrives.
What im trying to explain is that im putting my isk on my ship, and i deserve better than some one whos not investing in it. Think of it in RL:
A guy who buys an used sedan and the guy that saves his money and buys a maserati. In what world is it logical for the guy in the sedan to beat the maserati?
The snake set really is the biggest bonus really of any of the implant sets. Slaves and Crystals help you tank a bit longer, but as it currently stands, the snake set bonuses are so large, that if you have a snake set, there is really nothing that can touch you. I am not advocating that they drop the bonus from it's current form down to 5% or something total. But it realisticly shouldn't drive your Vagabond speed from 5km/s to 8-9km/s... The speed increase should be a nice one, but not overpowering. Say... a 20% bonus overall. This would still give you an advantage over the person that didn't invest his isk in the set, yet... not overpoweringly so. That is what I mean Necris. The bonus should mean something, but it shouldn't be the end all of nanoing.
If you look at some of the dev blogs, the speeds they are complaining about are the ones where people are using full on gang bonuses, snake sets, and booster bonuses to make there ships go ludicrious speeds. (Which really doesn't accomplish much for most pilots, as at high speeds it is easy to miss a tackle, or actually go faster then you can track.) The problem isn't the base speeds of the ships, but rather the huge bonuses that gang skills, snakes, and boosters give. Stacked they are insane right now. But the overall way they are trying to deal with that problem is really the wrong approach. I don't remember what ceptor you fly speed fit Necris (it's been awhile) but I am sure that if your speed dropped from 18km/s down to a more reasonable 12km/s with your snakes, gang bonuses, and boosters... it wouldn't kill you that much, especially if those HAC's speed tops out at a much more reasonable speed around 2km/s.
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Let neutrals be neutrals.
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Amandi Casimi
Amarr Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.12 16:08:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Black Necris
Amandi your post its an intelligent one and your proposal its logical, yet i dont agree in "nerfing" snakes, why should my 1 billion investment be hurt to benefit ppl who dont want to invest in their pvp. Snakes its not the IWIN button neither is nanos or overdrives.
What im trying to explain is that im putting my isk on my ship, and i deserve better than some one whos not investing in it. Think of it in RL:
A guy who buys an used sedan and the guy that saves his money and buys a maserati. In what world is it logical for the guy in the sedan to beat the maserati?
The snake set really is the biggest bonus really of any of the implant sets. Slaves and Crystals help you tank a bit longer, but as it currently stands, the snake set bonuses are so large, that if you have a snake set, there is really nothing that can touch you. I am not advocating that they drop the bonus from it's current form down to 5% or something total. But it realisticly shouldn't drive your Vagabond speed from 5km/s to 8-9km/s... The speed increase should be a nice one, but not overpowering. Say... a 20% bonus overall. This would still give you an advantage over the person that didn't invest his isk in the set, yet... not overpoweringly so. That is what I mean Necris. The bonus should mean something, but it shouldn't be the end all of nanoing.
If you look at some of the dev blogs, the speeds they are complaining about are the ones where people are using full on gang bonuses, snake sets, and booster bonuses to make there ships go ludicrious speeds. (Which really doesn't accomplish much for most pilots, as at high speeds it is easy to miss a tackle, or actually go faster then you can track.) The problem isn't the base speeds of the ships, but rather the huge bonuses that gang skills, snakes, and boosters give. Stacked they are insane right now. But the overall way they are trying to deal with that problem is really the wrong approach. I don't remember what ceptor you fly speed fit Necris (it's been awhile) but I am sure that if your speed dropped from 18km/s down to a more reasonable 12km/s with your snakes, gang bonuses, and boosters... it wouldn't kill you that much, especially if those HAC's speed tops out at a much more reasonable speed around 2km/s.
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Let neutrals be neutrals.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.12 18:16:00 -
[523]
Originally by: Hul'ka
i'm afraid you are not right on this one.. This is a major blow to viriaty in game mechanics and no mather how inteligent and smart solution and organisation of a roaming gangs is, simply nothing will work more efficiantly then f1-f8 missile spam.
Hmm what happened to ewar?
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.12 18:16:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Hul'ka
i'm afraid you are not right on this one.. This is a major blow to viriaty in game mechanics and no mather how inteligent and smart solution and organisation of a roaming gangs is, simply nothing will work more efficiantly then f1-f8 missile spam.
Hmm what happened to ewar?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.12 18:55:00 -
[525]
Edited by: Murina on 12/10/2008 18:57:05
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Hul'ka
i'm afraid you are not right on this one.. This is a major blow to variety in game mechanics and no mater how intelligent and smart solution and organization of a roaming gangs is, simply nothing will work more efficiently then f1-f8 missile spam.
Hmm what happened to ewar?
Last i checked it was next to cloaking on the EMO rage list of things to nerf the angry carebears are compiling.
And of course the fact that with this moronic nerf you cannot speed tank so that means that damped or jammed a missile boat can click approach and a f1-f8 FOF spam will make ecm and damps worthless.
Still if this silly nerf does happen it will not be long before the carebears add sniping ships and modules that help hit at long range to the EMO list of things to nerf the crap out of, cos omg they are gonna rock with the correct gang setup with speed removed.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.12 18:55:00 -
[526]
Edited by: Murina on 12/10/2008 19:14:39
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Hul'ka
i'm afraid you are not right on this one.. This is a major blow to variety in game mechanics and no mater how intelligent and smart solution and organization of a roaming gangs is, simply nothing will work more efficiently then f1-f8 missile spam.
Hmm what happened to ewar?
Last i checked it was next to cloaking on the EMO rage list of things to nerf the angry carebears are compiling.
And of course the fact that with this moronic nerf you cannot speed tank so that means that damped or jammed a missile boat can click approach and a f1-f8 FOF spam will make ecm and damps worthless.
Still if this silly nerf does happen it will not be long before the carebears add sniping ships and modules that help hit at long range to the EMO list of things to nerf the crap out of, cos omg they are gonna rock with the correct gang setup with speed removed.
LOL ppl think that speed is not balanced, just wait until they see how much range difference their is between t1 and t2 plus how much player SP makes. I can hit and lock on my main at 249km fully t2 fitted and with the maxed out dps available for my class and ship type,..a basic player is stuck at 180km max and does hardly any dmg.
CCP have no idea just how much this nerf is gonna screw up.
There has been over 4 years of game changes and additions that all took speed into account when implementing them and they think that they can just remove it without massively drastic alterations to everything.
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Seth Novus
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.12 19:52:00 -
[527]
You know - I think far too much time and effort has been put into this. When you nano a ship you are effectively reducing the structural integrity of the ship - taking out bulkheads, swapping out stronger heavier materials etc. Why not leave everything as it is but introduce a chance that as soon as you stress a nonoed ship by firing weapons or activating certain modules that your ship immediately disintegrates and you along with it (i.e. no chance to appear in a capsule - immediate clone death.
This would be far more fun - you can still get to fly as fast as you want and you might even be able to get away with firing weapons when you do so - but for the rest of us it would be a great spectator sport
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Seth Novus
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.12 19:52:00 -
[528]
You know - I think far too much time and effort has been put into this. When you nano a ship you are effectively reducing the structural integrity of the ship - taking out bulkheads, swapping out stronger heavier materials etc. Why not leave everything as it is but introduce a chance that as soon as you stress a nonoed ship by firing weapons or activating certain modules that your ship immediately disintegrates and you along with it (i.e. no chance to appear in a capsule - immediate clone death.
This would be far more fun - you can still get to fly as fast as you want and you might even be able to get away with firing weapons when you do so - but for the rest of us it would be a great spectator sport
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Burn Mac
Minmatar The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.10.12 19:57:00 -
[529]
Yeah this is paper, nerf scissors, rocks are fine.
Well doesnt matter how much they nerf minnies hell i just stick to killing n00bs that wont even fire back if i have to, im sure that with some brains and initiative i can think out a way to be combat effective again, sure ill be soar after getting the stick but ill be flying with a grudge against any nonsuspecting victim that dares to ignore the low sec warning.
/Me laughs evil super villain laugh
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Burn Mac
Minmatar The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.10.12 19:57:00 -
[530]
Yeah this is paper, nerf scissors, rocks are fine.
Well doesnt matter how much they nerf minnies hell i just stick to killing n00bs that wont even fire back if i have to, im sure that with some brains and initiative i can think out a way to be combat effective again, sure ill be soar after getting the stick but ill be flying with a grudge against any nonsuspecting victim that dares to ignore the low sec warning.
/Me laughs evil super villain laugh
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.13 07:06:00 -
[531]
IIRC, nobody asked CCP to introduce nanofibers, faction mwd's, speed hardwires, snakes, polycarbs, nav & skirmish warfare skills, gang mods, and finally boosters.
All of these got implemented separately on a game which went gold since 2003. At each introduction, the impact on speed was obvious and the way things would stack together as well. It's above all the devs and CCP's head of design who should know things better than anyone else. May I remind that "speed" got repeatedly nerfed as well over time and that at every stage, CCP APPOSITELY modified stats in order NOT to render speedtanking obsolete ? Where they blind all this time ?
But now they talk about "ludicrous" speeds ? You really have to be lacking any common sense to swallow that BS, because if you do, then you must accept the logic implications: either CCP's design over time is erratic and plagued by congenital incompetency, either they just play monkey balls with the customer base and there's no guarantee whatsoever that the time invested in this game leads to any form of capitalization, what raises the legitime question: is it WORTH playing this game ? In both cases this turns the caring customer attempting to do the best out of the tools given at hand a perfect idiot.
While I can understand that kiddies and peeps whose tactical proficiency stops at staring at a gate for hours can be pleased to avoid having to actually plan & think how to engage nanogangs, no matter which is your perspective, nerfing speed will naturally benefit blobbing and F1-F8 compulsive spammers.
CCP should take great care, because there are other venues out there which ended miserably despite enjoying a wider customer base and greater financial backbone just because their board of directors got things wrong at a given moment.
If the icelandic intelligentsia and its mindset are anywhere to be used as reference, then I'm sorry. Peeps risking almost 10x their national GDP in dubious investments are not to be trusted. And in technical matters ? Give me a break, even Tunisia, yes, a north-african nation, displays much betters stats in maths & science education than Iceland, dixit The Global Competitiveness Report 2008-2009 by the World Economic Forum of Davos.
And when you propose stuff like touching webs instead, they say that it would bring the system on its knees due to calculations overhead ? But if it's a game FFS ? Who gives a F.....g rat's ass to enjoy 17,27767634% in a given skill or module stat if this means using equations which will scale badly with the increase of concurrent subscribers in terms of CPU load ? Did the geniuses designing this game forget the wisdom you apply in iterative scientific calculations or microcontrollers programming, where critical parts are designed from ground up to achieve the highest efficiency and using simple data models ?
When you want to cyclically refresh dynamic data at high speed, you use bit fields and limit the spectrum (or degrees of freedom). Hell, a single word-sized field holds 16 flags (or levels, or increments of 6.25%, or whatever else) and can be manipulated through simple boolean operators. You need more granularity ? Then you use 32 or 64 bit fields where you can achieve results displaying adequate pertinence given the scope, and certainly not all-azimuth floating point calculations even in the most irrelevant field.
There are so many design flaws in this game which keep piling up that it's not even funny anymore... And the best of all, when I hear devs saying that their "physics engine" can't cope with stuff like speed, you really have to wonder first to which kind of "physics" they refer, because unless we don't live in the same world, I don't know which aspect of EvE simulates RL physics in any meaningful way, and second, what the hell where these peeps thinking when they implemented this stuff ingame ?
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.13 07:06:00 -
[532]
IIRC, nobody asked CCP to introduce nanofibers, faction mwd's, speed hardwires, snakes, polycarbs, nav & skirmish warfare skills, gang mods, and finally boosters.
All of these got implemented separately on a game which went gold since 2003. At each introduction, the impact on speed was obvious and the way things would stack together as well. It's above all the devs and CCP's head of design who should know things better than anyone else. May I remind that "speed" got repeatedly nerfed as well over time and that at every stage, CCP APPOSITELY modified stats in order NOT to render speedtanking obsolete ? Where they blind all this time ?
But now they talk about "ludicrous" speeds ? You really have to be lacking any common sense to swallow that BS, because if you do, then you must accept the logic implications: either CCP's design over time is erratic and plagued by congenital incompetency, either they just play monkey balls with the customer base and there's no guarantee whatsoever that the time invested in this game leads to any form of capitalization, what raises the legitime question: is it WORTH playing this game ? In both cases this turns the caring customer attempting to do the best out of the tools given at hand a perfect idiot.
While I can understand that kiddies and peeps whose tactical proficiency stops at staring at a gate for hours can be pleased to avoid having to actually plan & think how to engage nanogangs, no matter which is your perspective, nerfing speed will naturally benefit blobbing and F1-F8 compulsive spammers.
CCP should take great care, because there are other venues out there which ended miserably despite enjoying a wider customer base and greater financial backbone just because their board of directors got things wrong at a given moment.
If the icelandic intelligentsia and its mindset are anywhere to be used as reference, then I'm sorry. Peeps risking almost 10x their national GDP in dubious investments are not to be trusted. And in technical matters ? Give me a break, even Tunisia, yes, a north-african nation, displays much betters stats in maths & science education than Iceland, dixit The Global Competitiveness Report 2008-2009 by the World Economic Forum of Davos.
And when you propose stuff like touching webs instead, they say that it would bring the system on its knees due to calculations overhead ? But if it's a game FFS ? Who gives a F.....g rat's ass to enjoy 17,27767634% in a given skill or module stat if this means using equations which will scale badly with the increase of concurrent subscribers in terms of CPU load ? Did the geniuses designing this game forget the wisdom you apply in iterative scientific calculations or microcontrollers programming, where critical parts are designed from ground up to achieve the highest efficiency and using simple data models ?
When you want to cyclically refresh dynamic data at high speed, you use bit fields and limit the spectrum (or degrees of freedom). Hell, a single word-sized field holds 16 flags (or levels, or increments of 6.25%, or whatever else) and can be manipulated through simple boolean operators. You need more granularity ? Then you use 32 or 64 bit fields where you can achieve results displaying adequate pertinence given the scope, and certainly not all-azimuth floating point calculations even in the most irrelevant field.
There are so many design flaws in this game which keep piling up that it's not even funny anymore... And the best of all, when I hear devs saying that their "physics engine" can't cope with stuff like speed, you really have to wonder first to which kind of "physics" they refer, because unless we don't live in the same world, I don't know which aspect of EvE simulates RL physics in any meaningful way, and second, what the hell where these peeps thinking when they implemented this stuff ingame ?
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Tetsuo Takashi
Caldari Stellar Dynamics
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Posted - 2008.10.13 12:33:00 -
[533]
Did anyone get a recording of this? CCP have posted these before, why not now?
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Tetsuo Takashi
Caldari Stellar Dynamics
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Posted - 2008.10.13 12:33:00 -
[534]
Did anyone get a recording of this? CCP have posted these before, why not now?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.13 13:57:00 -
[535]
Edited by: Murina on 13/10/2008 13:57:09
Originally by: Tetsuo Takashi Did anyone get a recording of this? CCP have posted these before, why not now?
Here it is make sure your sitting down when you listen to it as naivety and stupidity on this level may cause seizures
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.13 13:57:00 -
[536]
Edited by: Murina on 13/10/2008 13:57:09
Originally by: Tetsuo Takashi Did anyone get a recording of this? CCP have posted these before, why not now?
Here it is make sure your sitting down when you listen to it as naivety and stupidity on this level may cause seizures
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Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.13 16:18:00 -
[537]
Nerf a few of the nano modules and nerf some of the speed implants! Why does CCP have to make "sweeping" changes everytime a small tweak is needed. You guys create more problems then you solve!!!!
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Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.13 16:18:00 -
[538]
Nerf a few of the nano modules and nerf some of the speed implants! Why does CCP have to make "sweeping" changes everytime a small tweak is needed. You guys create more problems then you solve!!!!
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muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.13 19:19:00 -
[539]
wow im not even going to quote it..someone again said something about interceptors going slower than cruisers...*sigh*.
To give you guys a CLUE..my toon w/ the "I-win" button. 20 million skill points and does not even have the battleship book in his head. doesn't have battlecruiser V even. the only thing NOT dedicated to his hac/inty and soon to be recon ship training is minmatar industrial 4.
I'm willing to put real life $$$ on statistics here showing that have of you nooblets thinking of ridding yourself the need of ships designed for the role of tackling were into your battleships completely unprepared for them within the first 1-2 months of playing your game without even considering maxed learning skills. (i did this with my first toon..WOOT I CAN PERMA TANK 5 NPC BS + 12 SUPPORT IN A LVL 4 WHOOOO)
By your logic...a t1 fitted insurable BC/BS by a 2 month old charactor should be able to catch and conquer my charactor with 20m SP invested towards a specific fit on a specific style of ship that happen to be based on speed and not the armor or shield tanks that it definately takes more than 1 lone nano pilot to break.
Getting caught unprepared by a group of speed demons only encouraged me to figure out the strongpoints and weaknesses of this particular type of fleet which only plays a minor support role if combined in BS on BS sniper or short range warfare.
After MONTHS of carefully planned strategic skill training and pvp engagements both flying and fighting skirmish ships, I can honestly say that its a respectable form of play. And yes...it should take equally specialized ships to do the job of catching and taking them out. I personally keep a sabre, vaga, stiletto, and hurricane stored with all of my pvp ships so that I can fill a missing role if needed. I even have my rapier sitting in my hanger that is now around 17 days away.
The people I fly with if nothing else attempt to do the same.
So you guys saying that you should be able to catch us without such and such ship or without proper tackling support..
You honestly believe that we should be penalized for YOUR lack of preparation, which includes skill training, enlisting pilots to cover the gaps you can not by yourself, and im willing to bet in most cases, neglecting to pay attention to local when you're out caught in a belt tanking 3 1.5m bounty bs's.
l2play
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muffminer
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Posted - 2008.10.13 19:19:00 -
[540]
Edited by: muffminer on 13/10/2008 19:53:36 Edited by: muffminer on 13/10/2008 19:45:43 Edited by: muffminer on 13/10/2008 19:27:47 wow im not even going to quote it..someone again said something about interceptors going slower than cruisers...*sigh*.
To give you guys a CLUE..my toon w/ the "I-win" button. 20 million skill points and does not even have the battleship book in his head. doesn't have battlecruiser V even. the only thing NOT dedicated to his hac/inty and soon to be recon ship training is minmatar industrial 4.
I'm willing to put real life $$$ on statistics here showing that half of you nooblets thinking of ridding yourself the need of ships designed for the role of tackling were into your battleships completely unprepared for them within the first 1-2 months of playing your game without even considering maxed learning skills. (i did this with my first toon..WOOT I CAN PERMA TANK 5 NPC BS + 12 SUPPORT IN A LVL 4 WHOOOO) Do we fly a sacrilidge w/o heavy assault ships IV at a minimum? I'd take a stab at PROBABLY.
By your logic...a t1 fitted insurable BC/BS by a 2 month old charactor should be able to catch and conquer my charactor with 20m SP invested towards a specific fit on a specific style of ship that happen to be based on speed and not the armor or shield tanks that it definately takes more than 1 lone nano pilot to break.
Getting caught unprepared by a group of speed demons only encouraged me to figure out the strongpoints and weaknesses of this particular type of fleet which only plays a minor support role if combined in BS on BS sniper or short range warfare.
After MONTHS of carefully planned strategic skill training and pvp engagements both flying and fighting skirmish ships, I can honestly say that its a respectable form of play. And yes...it should take equally specialized ships to do the job of catching and taking them out. I personally keep a sabre, vaga, stiletto, and hurricane stored with all of my pvp ships so that I can fill a missing role if needed. I even have my rapier sitting in my hanger that is now around 17 days away.
The people I fly with if nothing else attempt to do the same.
So you guys saying that you should be able to catch us without such and such ship or without proper tackling support..
You honestly believe that we should be penalized for YOUR lack of preparation, which includes skill training, enlisting pilots to cover the gaps you can not by yourself, and im willing to bet in most cases, neglecting to pay attention to local when you're out caught in a belt tanking 3 1.5m bounty bs's.
l2play
-edit- so many engagements in my speedfits and I still have yet to find this "I-win" button...i tried to assume it was the mwd that i use to get into optimal range before i turn it off so i can actually hit someone..but then again i use it to run away when someone's not smart enough to fit even a medium energy neut (can and will kill the cap of a vaga especially when he's wasted cap trying to mwd away from being the webee"..at the point of im taking so much dmg i better gtfo or die..that's my "i'm scared button"..so i guess the i-win button ='s my warp disruptor or the webs on an inty i would use to hold someone still long enough for him to die. its not the speed that wins folks...its your stopping power and survivability..which are gone once you get hit by that "i-win" button webber. must be faction i guess.
1 other thing to note..what i said about my specialized toon up there..20m sp aint alot..
and my point has to do nothing with total sp. For all i care you can have 40m sp..and within all that time you trained no speed skills..no cybernetics 5, no hac skills and no inty/cap skills..well why do you think you should be able to target fast enough + catch a ship you altered no design to your toon towards catching.
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.10.13 20:59:00 -
[541]
I am waiting until I test this (again) before complaining... except for the following: You appeared to be rather sneaky putting such an explosive nerf announcement into a live dev blog, where people could not view the details of the (supposedly) modified changes.
Almost like the American Congress trying to sneak legislation through a second time after being told by the public that they did not like it.
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Nemesor
Gallente Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.10.13 20:59:00 -
[542]
I am waiting until I test this (again) before complaining... except for the following: You appeared to be rather sneaky putting such an explosive nerf announcement into a live dev blog, where people could not view the details of the (supposedly) modified changes.
Almost like the American Congress trying to sneak legislation through a second time after being told by the public that they did not like it.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.10.13 21:35:00 -
[543]
For all the arguments about how it takes so much skill and dedication and isk to fly a nano boat, there are a few things that point to the need for this... ahem... adjustment that just can't be refuted.
First, no ship should be able to flat out-run the weapons that are meant to do damage to them. That means that you shouldn't be able to equip a cruiser to out-run heavy missiles and medium drones, and you shouldn't be able to equip a frig to out-run light missiles / drones. Using speed to mitigate damage? Sure. Using it to avoid damage altogether? Game breaking. Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking. Bottom line, you cannot completely avoid damage with traditional tanking, and you shouldn't be able to with speed tanking either. The two should provide (potentially) about the same mitigation.
Second, no fit should allow you to aggress and then disengage at will. That's why WCS were nerfed. It's an advantage that speed fits have that traditional tanking does not.
The two issues above have made speed fits the "ultimate" setup. You only need to look at the gang compositions of the "elite" PvP outfits in the game to see that clearly. Unless they're going to siege something, they're running nano/ecm gangs, almost exclusively. That's bad. There should be no "ultimate" setup in Eve. One of the strengths of the game has always been the ability to be creative, and use varying tactics and the element of surprise. There is damn little surprise out there these days, you get nanos, and then there are nanos, and then more nanos.
Don't worry about the whines CCP. It's right, you know it's right, just get it done. Once you do, the whining will die down and people will get back to playing the game.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.10.13 21:35:00 -
[544]
For all the arguments about how it takes so much skill and dedication and isk to fly a nano boat, there are a few things that point to the need for this... ahem... adjustment that just can't be refuted.
First, no ship should be able to flat out-run the weapons that are meant to do damage to them. That means that you shouldn't be able to equip a cruiser to out-run heavy missiles and medium drones, and you shouldn't be able to equip a frig to out-run light missiles / drones. Using speed to mitigate damage? Sure. Using it to avoid damage altogether? Game breaking. Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking. Bottom line, you cannot completely avoid damage with traditional tanking, and you shouldn't be able to with speed tanking either. The two should provide (potentially) about the same mitigation.
Second, no fit should allow you to aggress and then disengage at will. That's why WCS were nerfed. It's an advantage that speed fits have that traditional tanking does not.
The two issues above have made speed fits the "ultimate" setup. You only need to look at the gang compositions of the "elite" PvP outfits in the game to see that clearly. Unless they're going to siege something, they're running nano/ecm gangs, almost exclusively. That's bad. There should be no "ultimate" setup in Eve. One of the strengths of the game has always been the ability to be creative, and use varying tactics and the element of surprise. There is damn little surprise out there these days, you get nanos, and then there are nanos, and then more nanos.
Don't worry about the whines CCP. It's right, you know it's right, just get it done. Once you do, the whining will die down and people will get back to playing the game.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.13 22:25:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking.
That is a blinkered and uneducated statement considering the ship types available in eve. Without speed as it is EVERY small ship is worthless in gang pvp. All frigates can be insta melted with a volley from a single ship let alone a focus of fire from a few let alone a gang and so can destroyers and cruisers.
Larger ships like BC or BS can RR each other because they have buffer tanks that can soak up the alpha dmg and hit they take between RR cycles. Smaller ships with this nerf can be hit and alpha'd to death by a volley from surprising small amounts of ships and in some cases single ships.
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Second, no fit should allow you to aggress and then disengage at will. That's why WCS were nerfed. It's an advantage that speed fits have that traditional tanking does not.
Many fits give you the ability to disengage at will along with tactics:-
1. Sniping for instance is the easiest form of pvp that you can easily disengage as most standardly fitted ships cannot even lock at 180-249km let alone hit at that range and a sniper gang can warp off at will if any thing gets close. It is considerably easier to tackle a NANO ship than a aligned sniper as most NANO must slow and come in close to do DMG while the sniper need only watch his overview for closing ships.
2. Gate hugging and station hugging are THE 2 most popular tactics in eve and far beyond NANO in popularity tbh, and while it is possible to tackle a NANO ship as it closes and slows to deal dmg tackling a station or gate hugger is utterly pointless as you can dock and jump while tackled.
3. RR setups can tank and fight if they feel like it and de-agro while RRing if things go bad and then also dock or jump through a gate tackled or not.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.13 22:25:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking.
That is a blinkered and uneducated statement considering the ship types available in eve. Without speed as it is EVERY small ship is worthless in gang pvp. All frigates can be insta melted with a volley from a single ship let alone a focus of fire from a few let alone a gang and so can destroyers and cruisers.
Larger ships like BC or BS can RR each other because they have buffer tanks that can soak up the alpha dmg and hit they take between RR cycles. Smaller ships with this nerf can be hit and alpha'd to death by a volley from surprising small amounts of ships and in some cases single ships.
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Second, no fit should allow you to aggress and then disengage at will. That's why WCS were nerfed. It's an advantage that speed fits have that traditional tanking does not.
Many fits give you the ability to disengage at will along with tactics:-
1. Sniping for instance is the easiest form of pvp that you can easily disengage as most standardly fitted ships cannot even lock at 180-249km let alone hit at that range and a sniper gang can warp off at will if any thing gets close. It is considerably easier to tackle a NANO ship than a aligned sniper as most NANO must slow and come in close to do DMG while the sniper need only watch his overview for closing ships.
2. Gate hugging and station hugging are THE 2 most popular tactics in eve and far beyond NANO in popularity tbh, and while it is possible to tackle a NANO ship as it closes and slows to deal dmg tackling a station or gate hugger is utterly pointless as you can dock and jump while tackled.
3. RR setups can tank and fight if they feel like it and de-agro while RRing if things go bad and then also dock or jump through a gate tackled or not.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.13 22:38:00 -
[547]
Edited by: Murina on 13/10/2008 22:47:10
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine The two issues above have made speed fits the "ultimate" setup. There should be no "ultimate" setup in Eve. One of the strengths of the game has always been the ability to be creative, and use varying tactics and the element of surprise.
What you seem to think is that pvp should be as static and unimaginative as ratting, and i also notice that like a lot of the pro-nerf crowd you use words like "ultimate steup" when describing nano and it obviously is not as i have shown above.
While also using words like "tactics" and "creative" but explaining nothing and describing nothing of these great "tactical" and "creative" pvp battles that will become available if this nerf goes through. And honestly to me it seems like you have got nothing and just want speed removed because static slug fest pvp just like ratting is easier to do and f1-f8 to pop stuff is very basic and utterly simple compared to needing to actually tackle a ship to kill it.
Now id be glad for you to show me i am wrong by putting forth a great and detailed combat scenario that does not require speed (post nerf), but includes details on all the "tactics" and "creative" stuff you claim will burst forth with the removal of speed from the game.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.13 22:38:00 -
[548]
Edited by: Murina on 13/10/2008 22:47:10
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine The two issues above have made speed fits the "ultimate" setup. There should be no "ultimate" setup in Eve. One of the strengths of the game has always been the ability to be creative, and use varying tactics and the element of surprise.
What you seem to think is that pvp should be as static and unimaginative as ratting, and i also notice that like a lot of the pro-nerf crowd you use words like "ultimate steup" when describing nano and it obviously is not as i have shown above.
While also using words like "tactics" and "creative" but explaining nothing and describing nothing of these great "tactical" and "creative" pvp battles that will become available if this nerf goes through. And honestly to me it seems like you have got nothing and just want speed removed because static slug fest pvp just like ratting is easier to do and f1-f8 to pop stuff is very basic and utterly simple compared to needing to actually tackle a ship to kill it.
Now id be glad for you to show me i am wrong by putting forth a great and detailed combat scenario that does not require speed (post nerf), but includes details on all the "tactics" and "creative" stuff you claim will burst forth with the removal of speed from the game.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.10.13 23:17:00 -
[549]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 13/10/2008 23:20:36
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking.
That is a blinkered and uneducated statement considering the ship types available in eve. Without speed as it is EVERY small ship is worthless in gang pvp. All frigates can be insta melted with a volley from a single ship let alone a focus of fire from a few let alone a gang and so can destroyers and cruisers.
I've been playing for a while now, and I'm pretty sure small ships were in the game, and useful, before rigs were introduced and the nano craze hit.
Small ships should be able to get "under the guns" of larger ships with their speed/agility, but should readily take damage from weapons that are designed to damage them. That's how it was before rigs. It needs to get back there.
A ship, big or small, should be more or less as survivable with a traditional tank, or a speed. Some racial ships lend themselves more to speed tanking, but that shouldn't make them wildly more survivable than ships of the same class that rely on traditional tanking. Can anyone, the way things stand right now, argue that a Demios is as survivable as a Vaga or a nano ishtar? It's not even close.
Notice I said they should be equally viable options. Speed tanks should be viable, especially for the racial ships that depend on speed, but even for those, they shouldn't be wildly more viable than ships of the same class that rely on a traditional tank. That isn't true right now, and it needs to be.
It's going to get fixed. People are going to whine until it does. It's just too bad that CCP has drawn it (and the whines) out this long.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.10.13 23:17:00 -
[550]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 13/10/2008 23:20:36
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking.
That is a blinkered and uneducated statement considering the ship types available in eve. Without speed as it is EVERY small ship is worthless in gang pvp. All frigates can be insta melted with a volley from a single ship let alone a focus of fire from a few let alone a gang and so can destroyers and cruisers.
I've been playing for a while now, and I'm pretty sure small ships were in the game, and useful, before rigs were introduced and the nano craze hit.
Small ships should be able to get "under the guns" of larger ships with their speed/agility, but should readily take damage from weapons that are designed to damage them. That's how it was before rigs. It needs to get back there.
A ship, big or small, should be more or less as survivable with a traditional tank, or a speed. Some racial ships lend themselves more to speed tanking, but that shouldn't make them wildly more survivable than ships of the same class that rely on traditional tanking. Can anyone, the way things stand right now, argue that a Demios is as survivable as a Vaga or a nano ishtar? It's not even close.
Notice I said they should be equally viable options. Speed tanks should be viable, especially for the racial ships that depend on speed, but even for those, they shouldn't be wildly more viable than ships of the same class that rely on a traditional tank. That isn't true right now, and it needs to be.
It's going to get fixed. People are going to whine until it does. It's just too bad that CCP has drawn it (and the whines) out this long.
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Carl Marcus
Gallente Galactic Waste Management
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Posted - 2008.10.14 00:11:00 -
[551]
Well despite the well thought out rebutals to the "nano-nerf" im quite certain the brilliant minds that introduced us to nano warfare will find some equaly exhausting and untouchable ship set ups in the future. I have faith in you! Any way those ships that supposedly were intended for speed in the first place will still have speed and those ships "hvy assault cruisers" will no doubt find there place in the universe.Speed will still be a factor but guess what? You brilliant minds out there will find yourselves once again excersizing those gourgeous brain cells of yours to once again introduce us all to some new terror.
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Carl Marcus
Gallente Galactic Waste Management
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Posted - 2008.10.14 00:11:00 -
[552]
Well despite the well thought out rebutals to the "nano-nerf" im quite certain the brilliant minds that introduced us to nano warfare will find some equaly exhausting and untouchable ship set ups in the future. I have faith in you! Any way those ships that supposedly were intended for speed in the first place will still have speed and those ships "hvy assault cruisers" will no doubt find there place in the universe.Speed will still be a factor but guess what? You brilliant minds out there will find yourselves once again excersizing those gourgeous brain cells of yours to once again introduce us all to some new terror.
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IR Scoutar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.14 02:03:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Semkhet lots of stuff
can i has your babies ?
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IR Scoutar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.14 02:03:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Semkhet lots of stuff
can i has your babies ?
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Termopan
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Posted - 2008.10.14 05:53:00 -
[555]
nano nerf = DONT TRAIN MINMATAR ...there bs are pretty usless compared to the other races ....there recons atm are very usefull as for there hac's but ..nerfing speed = dead vaga also for the web's nerf 60%chance etc and shit = usless rapier /huginn i tryed those web's on sisi webbed a rat frigate he was barelly slowing down so that says it all ...atm the minmatar bs's doing 1vs1 with other bs's from other races losse dramaticly ..if this nerf takes place ..all the players that trained minmatar could simply sell there char's cuz it will be a "dead race" and all of this because people cant adapt to the game you get owned by a vaga / huginn good dont go trolling in petitions that there fast nerf nerf ..learn to fly one and go own someone and feel good in it ..i did it ..and its hell of a fun then trolling around with nerfs and shit
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Termopan
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Posted - 2008.10.14 05:53:00 -
[556]
nano nerf = DONT TRAIN MINMATAR ...there bs are pretty usless compared to the other races ....there recons atm are very usefull as for there hac's but ..nerfing speed = dead vaga also for the web's nerf 60%chance etc and shit = usless rapier /huginn i tryed those web's on sisi webbed a rat frigate he was barelly slowing down so that says it all ...atm the minmatar bs's doing 1vs1 with other bs's from other races losse dramaticly ..if this nerf takes place ..all the players that trained minmatar could simply sell there char's cuz it will be a "dead race" and all of this because people cant adapt to the game you get owned by a vaga / huginn good dont go trolling in petitions that there fast nerf nerf ..learn to fly one and go own someone and feel good in it ..i did it ..and its hell of a fun then trolling around with nerfs and shit
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Termopan
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Posted - 2008.10.14 05:56:00 -
[557]
Edited by: Termopan on 14/10/2008 05:56:20 i think ccp should invent a option ..where it would show a question for instance : do you want to nerf nano ..then you explain what nerf consists in and people from the game to chose yes or no so the decision will be taken by eve players
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Termopan
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Posted - 2008.10.14 05:56:00 -
[558]
Edited by: Termopan on 14/10/2008 05:56:20 i think ccp should invent a option ..where it would show a question for instance : do you want to nerf nano ..then you explain what nerf consists in and people from the game to chose yes or no so the decision will be taken by eve players
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 08:22:00 -
[559]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking.
That is a blinkered and uneducated statement considering the ship types available in eve. Without speed as it is EVERY small ship is worthless in gang pvp. All frigates can be insta melted with a volley from a single ship let alone a focus of fire from a few let alone a gang and so can destroyers and cruisers.
I've been playing for a while now, and I'm pretty sure small ships were in the game, and useful, before rigs were introduced and the nano craze hit.
Small ships should be able to get "under the guns" of larger ships with their speed/agility, but should readily take damage from weapons that are designed to damage them. That's how it was before rigs. It needs to get back there.
Speed has been here for over 4 years the entire game from tracking to nerfs to new items and ships have taken it into account when they were implemented. Before those 4 years the player base of eve was not much larger that a couple of the largest alliances in the game right now, we did not have bubbles or dictors or jump bridges.
If you are "under the gins" of one ship you are in the sweet spot of ALL his gang mates and gonna get melted.
And no this is not how it was before rigs so please stop with the "days of yore", "when i was a lad" crap cos you know nothing about what you are talking about.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 08:22:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 11:24:45
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Speed tanking should be a viable option, but it should not be superior to traditional tanking.
That is a blinkered and uneducated statement considering the ship types available in eve. Without speed as it is EVERY small ship is worthless in gang pvp. All frigates can be insta melted with a volley from a single ship let alone a focus of fire from a few let alone a gang and so can destroyers and cruisers.
I've been playing for a while now, and I'm pretty sure small ships were in the game, and useful, before rigs were introduced and the nano craze hit.
Small ships should be able to get "under the guns" of larger ships with their speed/agility, but should readily take damage from weapons that are designed to damage them. That's how it was before rigs. It needs to get back there.
Speed has been here for over 4 years not just with the introduction of rigs, and the entire game from tracking speeds to nerfs to new items and ships have taken it into account when they were implemented. Before those 4 years the player base of eve was not much larger than a couple of the largest alliances in the game right now let alone including their pets, we did not have bubbles or dictors or jump bridges or any of the other things ppl take for granted now.
If you are "under the guns" of one ship you are in the sweet spot of ALL his gang mates and gonna get insta melted.
And no this is not how it was before rigs so please stop with the "days of yore" and "when i was a lad" crap cos you know nothing about what you are talking about.
PS: I am still waiting for your detailed combat scenario on all the "tactics" and "creative" stuff you claim will burst forth with the removal of speed from the game.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:06:00 -
[561]
Edited by: Tehyarec on 14/10/2008 12:10:08 I'm of two minds of these proposed nerfs.
I hate nanoships. It's a ******ed thing where you can only counter them with nanoships of your own or Minmatar recons (a fleet of them, since only a few of them will simply get swarmed and owned). So the way it is now, it certainly needs to stop.
If those that fly these nanoships can't see how overpowered and silly it is right now... take another look. Also it's no excuse that "I spent this and this much skillpoints to get here" - well guess what, I spent lots of skillpoints on blasters and gunnery in general, and your overspeeding ship is making those skillpoints useless. Sure, I could train for maxed nanoships myself, but I don't like that style, and forcing people to one single playstyle to be effective isn't right.
I'm sure everyone's trained for something that has since been nerfed or never was that good to begin with. That's not a reason to keep this speed problem in existence.
So there's a problem that needs fixing.
However, I'd say the speed problem should never have gotten this far to begin with. CCP should've seen - hell, KNOWN - where all the speed-increasing additions to the game would lead to. So the blame is on them in that sense.
I'll also say that some stuff they're proposing as the solution to this is plain bad. Disabling MWDs with a scrambler? Bye bye close range ships. Because this will hurt blaster ships more than nanoships most likely. Can't really fit both AB and MWD into something like a Deimos, and Gallente recons (especially combined with Minmater recons) could make entire blaster gangs for example stop dead in their tracks while long range support slaughters them. If this goes live, blasters simply won't be viable. Autocannons might perhaps stay viable up to a point with their better range (at least on ships with +falloff), but still a nerf to AC fits as well. Webs being nerfed... hard to say how that'll work out in the end. With how bad tracking is, probably not well, especially as I heard there's a nerf coming to hybrid gun tracking at least? Rails don't hit crap as it is, so when we can't use blasters either it's not going to be much fun.
And what comes to frigates, especially tackling ones, they'll of course be free kills with no MWD. I did 3,5km/s on my ceptors with no speed mods, and it was ok - I was able to do my job mostly, yet I was in no way untouchable. But with this change, I'd be stopped and killed in seconds.
So in essence, they could name the patch that will implement these changes to "Age of Missiles and the Rise of Gallente Recons". Suffice to say that I have 317k SP in missiles. I just don't see how they mean to keep close-range combat viable after this change. This scrambler change along with the ghost training change really are too much for me right now.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:06:00 -
[562]
Edited by: Tehyarec on 14/10/2008 12:17:42 I'm of two minds of these proposed nerfs.
I hate nanoships. It's a ******ed thing where you can only counter them with nanoships of your own or Minmatar recons (a fleet of them, since only a few of them will simply get swarmed and owned). So the way it is now, it certainly needs to stop.
If those that fly these nanoships can't see how overpowered and silly it is right now... take another look. Also it's no excuse that "I spent this and this much skillpoints to get here" - well guess what, I spent lots of skillpoints on blasters and gunnery in general, and your overspeeding ship is making those skillpoints useless. Sure, I could train for maxed nanoships myself, but I don't like that style, and forcing people to one single playstyle to be effective isn't right.
I'm sure everyone's trained for something that has since been nerfed or never was that good to begin with. That's not a reason to keep this speed problem in existence.
So there's a problem that needs fixing.
However, I'd say the speed problem should never have gotten this far to begin with. CCP should've seen - hell, KNOWN - where all the speed-increasing additions to the game would lead to. So the blame is on them in that sense.
I'll also say that some stuff they're proposing as the solution to this is plain bad. Mainly disabling MWDs with a scrambler. What the heck? Bye bye close range ships. Because this will hurt blaster ships more than nanoships most likely. Can't really fit both AB and MWD into something like a Deimos, and Gallente recons (especially combined with Minmater recons) could make entire blaster gangs for example stop dead in their tracks while long range support slaughters them. An AB won't make a difference. If this goes live, blasters simply won't be viable. Autocannons might perhaps stay viable up to a point with their better range (at least on ships with +falloff), but still a nerf to AC fits as well. Webs being nerfed... hard to say how that'll work out in the end. With how bad tracking is, probably not well, especially as I heard there's a nerf coming to hybrid gun tracking at least? Rails don't hit crap as it is, so when we can't use blasters either it's not going to be much fun.
And what comes to frigates, especially tackling ones, they'll of course be free kills with no MWD. I did 3,5km/s on my ceptors with no speed mods, and it was ok - I was able to do my job mostly, yet I was in no way untouchable. But with this change, I'd be stopped and killed in seconds.
So in essence, they could name the patch that will implement these changes to "Age of Missiles and the Rise of Gallente Recons". Suffice to say that I have 317k SP in missiles. I just don't see how they mean to keep close-range combat viable after this change. This scrambler change along with the ghost training change really are too much for me right now.
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Korizan
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:27:00 -
[563]
Okay for balancing out of the ships base speed is great I don't think anyone can complain there, it is long over due.
The only 2 things right now I am wondering about. Webber effectiveness going down. Scrambler - taking out the micro warp drive.
IF you scram somebody you don't need a webber unless you want to slow down an afterburner and for that purpose they really are over powered cause they were originally geared for the MWD drive and the result is the afterburner got the shaft. Okay fine I see the balance there.
The only thing about this is one class of ship (All the others are fine) that I wonder about and that is the intercepter. THis ship depends on speed. Maybe this is a mute issue maybe not but perhaps a closer look in order. The fix is simple if this ship class is hurt to much. Give them 1 or 2 points of stability like the blockade runner. One I think would be enough. Just a thought that would boast this class alone.
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Korizan
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:27:00 -
[564]
Okay for balancing out of the ships base speed is great I don't think anyone can complain there, it is long over due.
The only 2 things right now I am wondering about. Webber effectiveness going down. Scrambler - taking out the micro warp drive.
IF you scram somebody you don't need a webber unless you want to slow down an afterburner and for that purpose they really are over powered cause they were originally geared for the MWD drive and the result is the afterburner got the shaft. Okay fine I see the balance there.
The only thing about this is one class of ship (All the others are fine) that I wonder about and that is the intercepter. THis ship depends on speed. Maybe this is a mute issue maybe not but perhaps a closer look in order. The fix is simple if this ship class is hurt to much. Give them 1 or 2 points of stability like the blockade runner. One I think would be enough. Just a thought that would boast this class alone.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:54:00 -
[565]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 12:55:37
Originally by: Korizan Okay for balancing out of the ships base speed is great I don't think anyone can complain there, it is long over due.
Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 12:54:00 -
[566]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 12:55:37
Originally by: Korizan Okay for balancing out of the ships base speed is great I don't think anyone can complain there, it is long over due.
Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:06:00 -
[567]
Originally by: lebrata Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
80% of the people flying said nanoships due to their overpoweredness, sure. Who would want to give up their button of invincibility after all? Sadly since it's been the only effective way to fit a ship for ages now, the number of people flying this way is quite high. I'd rather fly conventionally and for that matter in a ship that doesn't cost up to and even over twenty times the hull's value (ceptors) in speed mods and rigs alone. Not everyone can even afford that even if they wanted to.
That said, I'll say again that the scrambler change simply is not the way to go about fixing anything. Nerfing speed alone via other means (like nerfing speed mods etc) doesn't make small ships worthless, but the scrambler change will.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:06:00 -
[568]
Originally by: lebrata Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
80% of the people flying said nanoships due to their overpoweredness, sure. Who would want to give up their button of invincibility after all? Sadly since it's been the only effective way to fit a ship for ages now, the number of people flying this way is quite high. I'd rather fly conventionally and for that matter in a ship that doesn't cost up to and even over twenty times the hull's value (ceptors) in speed mods and rigs alone. Not everyone can even afford that even if they wanted to.
That said, I'll say again that the scrambler change simply is not the way to go about fixing anything. Nerfing speed alone via other means (like nerfing speed mods etc) doesn't make small ships worthless, but the scrambler change will.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:49:00 -
[569]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 13:53:11
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: lebrata Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
80% of the people flying said nanoships due to their overpoweredness, sure. Who would want to give up their button of invincibility after all?
Invincible against what?...ppl who wanna pvp in ratting and PVE setups maybe but against another pvp fitted and setup gang NANO is not overpowered in the slightest its quite weak.
If a nano is tackled its dead, if a RR BS or a member of a mixed gang with logistic support is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, wanna talk about invulnerability how about snipers, all standardly fitted ships cannot even lock them at the range they operate at let alone hit them and if you get close or summat drops out of warp near them they just warp.......
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 13:49:00 -
[570]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 16:07:12
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: lebrata Actually 80% of the ppl think its a massively bad idea bud, and all the small classes of ships depend on speed from cruiser downwards, and the nerf makes them worthless.
80% of the people flying said nanoships due to their overpoweredness, sure. Who would want to give up their button of invincibility after all?
Invincible against what?...ppl who wanna pvp in ratting and PVE setups maybe, but against another pvp fitted and setup gangs NANO is not overpowered in the slightest its quite weak.
Wanna talk about invulnerability?...
If a nano is tackled its dead, NANO melts when tackled.
If a RR BS is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
If a member of a mixed gang with logistic support is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its logistic buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
How about snipers?
All standardly fitted ships cannot even lock them at the range snipers operate at let alone hit them and if you get close or summat drops out of warp near them they just warp.......ect ect.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:08:00 -
[571]
Originally by: lebrata Invincible against what?...ppl who wanna pvp in ratting and PVE setups maybe, but against another pvp fitted and setup gangs NANO is not overpowered in the slightest its quite weak.
Blaster ships. Autocannon ships. Rail ships. Anything with limited range and tracking, really. Hell, even missiles don't hit nano ships because they move too fast, or if they hit, they do no damage. Drones can't touch them either. Unlike what you seem to think, PVP fit doesn't exclusively mean nano fit, even at this day and age.
Now seriously tell me, what does a blaster Deimos do to a nanoship? Or a Raven? Or even a something like a rail Astarte? Because even if the nanos fail at killing the target, they can't be killed either - they can just run off. While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them. Sound balanced to you?
So, weak? I think not.
Quote: Wanna talk about invulnerability?... If a nano is tackled its dead
And what, pray tell, will tackle (that is, web) a nano aside from another nano or a Huginn/Rapier? Nothing. As such, your point is not valid.
Quote: If a RR BS is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
You assume he has buddies, whereas a single Vagabond can kill many battleship fits easily (yes, even PVP ones). And even he has buddies, the nano can just run off too. Again, not really a relevant point.
Quote: If a member of a mixed gang with logistic support is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
Except when the logistics gets annihilated due to being focus-fired. Except when there's no logistics around to begin with. And again you present a scenario where the target can survive, but CANNOT FIGHT BACK. So for the third time, not a valid point.
Quote: How about snipers? All standardly fitted ships cannot even lock them at the range snipers operate at let alone hit them and if you get close or summat drops out of warp near them they just warp.......ect ect.
Nanos are actually quite a perfect counter against snipers. They don't track well enough to hit you from even far away, as you can keep even transversal up even at a distance. And even if they are aligned and ready to warp, and can get away from you, they can't really kill you either - you're not tackled and can freely either escape, or catch up to them and kill them if they don't immediately warp. Once the sniper is tackled, there is absolutely nothing he can do to you. So again... NOT a valid point.
Each case you present at best lets the non-nano ship to survive, but presents no way to kill them unless you have the Huginns/Rapiers/nanoships with you. This is NOT balanced, even a blind man can see as much. If a playstyle in a game with many supposedly viable styles can only be countered by using the same style, it is not balanced. And that is what we have here. I do not want to be forced to fly Huginns, Rapiers or nanoships in order to be able to be anything but a sitting duck for nanoships to chew away at at their leisure with me left with sod all I can do about it. No other ship is really mandatory (leaving POS fights aside) in combat, but in the nanoage, Huginns and Rapiers are as close as it gets.
Just about every time someone defends the existence of nanoships, in the end it boils down to them not wanting to lose their easymode free kills against non-nanoed ships.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:08:00 -
[572]
Originally by: lebrata Invincible against what?...ppl who wanna pvp in ratting and PVE setups maybe, but against another pvp fitted and setup gangs NANO is not overpowered in the slightest its quite weak.
Blaster ships. Autocannon ships. Rail ships. Anything with limited range and tracking, really. Hell, even missiles don't hit nano ships because they move too fast, or if they hit, they do no damage. Drones can't touch them either. Unlike what you seem to think, PVP fit doesn't exclusively mean nano fit, even at this day and age.
Now seriously tell me, what does a blaster Deimos do to a nanoship? Or a Raven? Or even a something like a rail Astarte? Because even if the nanos fail at killing the target, they can't be killed either - they can just run off. While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them. Sound balanced to you?
So, weak? I think not.
Quote: Wanna talk about invulnerability?... If a nano is tackled its dead
And what, pray tell, will tackle (that is, web) a nano aside from another nano or a Huginn/Rapier? Nothing. As such, your point is not valid.
Quote: If a RR BS is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
You assume he has buddies, whereas a single Vagabond can kill many battleship fits easily (yes, even PVP ones). And even he has buddies, the nano can just run off too. Again, not really a relevant point.
Quote: If a member of a mixed gang with logistic support is tackled who cares its got a monster tank with all its buddies, and if it does start to break it can de-agrro and jump or dock.
Except when the logistics gets annihilated due to being focus-fired. Except when there's no logistics around to begin with. And again you present a scenario where the target can survive, but CANNOT FIGHT BACK. So for the third time, not a valid point.
Quote: How about snipers? All standardly fitted ships cannot even lock them at the range snipers operate at let alone hit them and if you get close or summat drops out of warp near them they just warp.......ect ect.
Nanos are actually quite a perfect counter against snipers. They don't track well enough to hit you from even far away, as you can keep even transversal up even at a distance. And even if they are aligned and ready to warp, and can get away from you, they can't really kill you either - you're not tackled and can freely either escape, or catch up to them and kill them if they don't immediately warp. Once the sniper is tackled, there is absolutely nothing he can do to you. So again... NOT a valid point.
Each case you present at best lets the non-nano ship to survive, but presents no way to kill them unless you have the Huginns/Rapiers/nanoships with you. This is NOT balanced, even a blind man can see as much. If a playstyle in a game with many supposedly viable styles can only be countered by using the same style, it is not balanced. And that is what we have here. I do not want to be forced to fly Huginns, Rapiers or nanoships in order to be able to be anything but a sitting duck for nanoships to chew away at at their leisure with me left with sod all I can do about it. No other ship is really mandatory (leaving POS fights aside) in combat, but in the nanoage, Huginns and Rapiers are as close as it gets.
Just about every time someone defends the existence of nanoships, in the end it boils down to them not wanting to lose their easymode free kills against non-nanoed ships.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:46:00 -
[573]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 16:55:14
Originally by: Tehyarec Blaster ships. Autocannon ships. Rail ships. Anything with limited range and tracking, really. Hell, even missiles don't hit nano ships because they move too fast, or if they hit, they do no damage. Drones can't touch them either. Unlike what you seem to think, PVP fit doesn't exclusively mean nano fit, even at this day and age.
So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?...ok i see the problem now you think like a ratter. Maybe you should call this nerf the "waaa sit still so i can kill you like i do rats" nerf?.
Originally by: Tehyarec While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them.
So let me understand this, NANO should be nerfed cos your alliance does not have a varied and versatile membership, maybe you should recruit a pvp corp that can show you how to tackle and defend tacklers instead of just having carebears with carebear skills and complaining cos eve is too hard for you?.
Originally by: Tehyarec And what, pray tell, will tackle (that is, web) a nano aside from another nano or a Huginn/Rapier? Nothing. As such, your point is not valid.
Fast tacklers are almost essential against any form of gang not just nano and yes the web bonused ships are the best but any will do if you work as a team and defend them with logistic and ewar.
Originally by: Tehyarec You assume he has buddies, whereas a single Vagabond can kill many battleship fits easily (yes, even PVP ones). And even he has buddies, the nano can just run off too. Again, not really a relevant point.
Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Except when the logistics gets annihilated due to being focus-fired.
Except when there's no logistics around to begin with.
And again you present a scenario where the target can survive, but CANNOT FIGHT BACK.
1. You wanna try breaking a spider tanked logistic fit with nano that needs to slow down at close range to hit anything while the rest of the MIXED gang webs points and melts you?.
2. No logistics around?..oh look we are back to your lack of preparedness again.
3. "Cannot fight back???" A mixed gang includes some fast tacklers or it would not be fully mixed so they can easily catch nano ships while the EWAR and LOGISTICS in the mixed gang defend them and the dmg dealers pop the nano.
That is called team work noob.
Originally by: Tehyarec Nanos are actually quite a perfect counter against snipers.
How odd im sure the corp with one of the best K/D in eve uses snipers and not only snipers but RAVEN snipers very effectively against all forms of gangs including NANO. They tackle with fast ships, jam/damp with ewar on the ravens and a ECM ship and kill with cruise from the ravens.
That is also called team work noob.
Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting in a alliance.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:46:00 -
[574]
Edited by: lebrata on 14/10/2008 16:57:12
Originally by: Tehyarec Blaster ships. Autocannon ships. Rail ships. Anything with limited range and tracking, really. Hell, even missiles don't hit nano ships because they move too fast, or if they hit, they do no damage. Drones can't touch them either. Unlike what you seem to think, PVP fit doesn't exclusively mean nano fit, even at this day and age.
So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?...ok i see the problem now you think like a ratter. Maybe you should call this nerf the "waaa sit still so i can kill you like i do rats" nerf?.
Originally by: Tehyarec While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them.
So let me understand this, NANO should be nerfed cos your alliance does not have a varied and versatile membership, maybe you should recruit a pvp corp that can show you how to tackle and defend tacklers instead of just having carebears with carebear skills and complaining cos eve is too hard for you?.
Originally by: Tehyarec And what, pray tell, will tackle (that is, web) a nano aside from another nano or a Huginn/Rapier? Nothing. As such, your point is not valid.
Fast tacklers are almost essential against any form of gang not just nano and yes the web bonused ships are the best but any will do if you work as a team and defend them with logistic and ewar.
Originally by: Tehyarec You assume he has buddies, whereas a single Vagabond can kill many battleship fits easily (yes, even PVP ones). And even he has buddies, the nano can just run off too. Again, not really a relevant point.
Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Except when the logistics gets annihilated due to being focus-fired.
Except when there's no logistics around to begin with.
And again you present a scenario where the target can survive, but CANNOT FIGHT BACK.
1. You wanna try breaking a spider tanked logistic fit with nano that needs to slow down at close range to hit anything while the rest of the MIXED gang webs points and melts you?.
2. No logistics around?..oh look we are back to your lack of preparedness again.
3. "Cannot fight back???" A mixed gang includes some fast tacklers or it would not be fully mixed so they can easily catch nano ships while the EWAR and LOGISTICS in the mixed gang defend them and the dmg dealers pop the nano.
That is called team work noob.
Originally by: Tehyarec Nanos are actually quite a perfect counter against snipers.
How odd im sure the corp with one of the best K/D in eve uses snipers and not only snipers but RAVEN snipers very effectively against all forms of gangs including NANO. They tackle with fast ships, jam/damp with ewar on the ravens and a ECM ship and kill with cruise from the ravens.
That is also called team work noob.
Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting along with preparedness in a alliance.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 17:07:00 -
[575]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 17:08:41
Originally by: Tehyarec Now seriously tell me, what does a blaster Deimos do to a nanoship? Or a Raven? Or even a something like a rail Astarte? Because even if the nanos fail at killing the target, they can't be killed either - they can just run off.
OMG
Originally by: Tehyarec While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them. Sound balanced to you?
OOMG
Originally by: Tehyarec Except when there's no logistics around to begin with.
OOOMG
I am a pvper i have a large and varied selection of ships i can fly in my hangar all fitted for specific combat roles so if a hostile gang comes into our space NANO or not or if we are going on a roaming op i can ask what ship will best benefit the gang or what ship are we lacking so we can be as effective a unit as possible.
I would never consider pvping in a pure ratting setup in 0.0 and even with my part pvp part ratting setup i use for NPCing if i got caught in a belt by a gang while NPCing id consider myself very lucky if i got away no matter the gang type, if it was a solo ship then id stand a reasonable chance with a my smart part pvp part ratting setup.
If i lose a ship in eve no matter what, who or how it is always 100% my fault, because as a experienced pvper i take responsibility for my ship and my actions and if i choose to do something or follow a order that gets me killed or i just screw up or are up against a better, luckier, or better equipped player that's just the way it is, but its still 100% my fault for not being prepared.
I pick my self up get another ship and analyze why i died and if its summat that is utter nightmare to counter or defeat the bigger BONER i get cos challenges like that are what make eve worth playing.
PS: THE RAVENS, DEIMOS AND ASTARTE YOU MENTIONED AT THE TOP COULD EASILY BE THE DMG DEALING PART OF YOUR GANG AS THEY HAVE BONUSES TO AND HIGH DMG, THE TACKLERS (RAPIERS AND FAST SHIPS) HAVE BONUSES TO TACKLING.... AND HOLY CRAP THE LOGISTICS SHIPS HAVE BONUSES TO REPAIRING......YOU FIGURE OUT THE REST BUD.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 17:07:00 -
[576]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 17:08:41
Originally by: Tehyarec Now seriously tell me, what does a blaster Deimos do to a nanoship? Or a Raven? Or even a something like a rail Astarte? Because even if the nanos fail at killing the target, they can't be killed either - they can just run off.
OMG
Originally by: Tehyarec While I was still in IAC, we were "farmed" by nanogangs because we didn't really have nanos of our own, and very limited Huginns/Rapiers, so essentially unless one of the nanopilots really messed up, we usually couldn't touch them. Sound balanced to you?
OOMG
Originally by: Tehyarec Except when there's no logistics around to begin with.
OOOMG
I am a pvper i have a large and varied selection of ships i can fly in my hangar all fitted for specific combat roles so if a hostile gang comes into our space NANO or not or if we are going on a roaming op i can ask what ship will best benefit the gang or what ship are we lacking so we can be as effective a unit as possible.
I would never consider pvping in a pure ratting setup in 0.0 and even with my part pvp part ratting setup i use for NPCing if i got caught in a belt by a gang while NPCing id consider myself very lucky if i got away no matter the gang type, if it was a solo ship then id stand a reasonable chance with a my smart part pvp part ratting setup.
If i lose a ship in eve no matter what, who or how it is always 100% my fault, because as a experienced pvper i take responsibility for my ship and my actions and if i choose to do something or follow a order that gets me killed or i just screw up or are up against a better, luckier, or better equipped player that's just the way it is, but its still 100% my fault for not being prepared.
I pick my self up get another ship and analyze why i died and if its summat that is utter nightmare to counter or defeat the bigger BONER i get cos challenges like that are what make eve worth playing.
PS: THE RAVENS, DEIMOS AND ASTARTE YOU MENTIONED AT THE TOP COULD EASILY BE THE DMG DEALING PART OF YOUR GANG AS THEY HAVE BONUSES TO AND HIGH DMG, THE TACKLERS (RAPIERS AND FAST SHIPS) HAVE BONUSES TO TACKLING.... AND HOLY CRAP THE LOGISTICS SHIPS HAVE BONUSES TO REPAIRING......YOU FIGURE OUT THE REST BUD.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 18:08:00 -
[577]
How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs. And even if they could, nanoships are still the only type of normal ship that can only be countered in so few ways. For non-hardcore pvp corps and even alliances it's a serious problem. People tend to fly what they like to fly, which often means that specific ships that would be needed, be it logistics or something else, are not present. Logistics aren't the solution in any case, they merely allow you to survive, not kill.
Nanoships are tanked (via speed), have usually decent damage, and can tackle, all at the same time. This is a real problem here. A nanogang doesn't really need "roles", they pretty much do it all. A 10-man nano-HAC gang will annihilate a 10-man normal HAC gang, because the normal HAC gang will have no counter. Because the ship types are essentially the same, this illustrates the lack of balance due to a certain style of fitting very well. The damage-dealing Astarte will be useless with nanos or Huginns/Rapiers on his side to tackle, making those specific types of ships mandatory to have, thus pointing to imbalance.
In IAC, at times we had constant visits from certain people flying Vagas solo. Entire small fleets (over 10 people) often couldn't catch them - and that included Huginns and Rapiers quite often, and of course several ceptors etc. The vagas could simply move back to a gate after jumping into our gang, since even if it got webbed, it had enough velocity from the acceleration to make it to the gate anyway - and plenty of time to accelerate before lock kicks in with the lag factor (anyone who has done gate camps knows of this). So it was endless ping pong between two systems quite often. Tell me, what other kind of ship than a nano (and perhaps a cloaked ship with luck) can survive jumping solo into a gang/fleet of ships?
But in the end it's all very simple. You only need to look at how many nanoships are around these days. Then factor in the well known fact that people generally use what is the most powerful (also known as "flavor of the month"). You figure out the rest... bud. I'm done wasting my time with clueless people
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 18:08:00 -
[578]
How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs. And even if they could, nanoships are still the only type of normal ship that can only be countered in so few ways. For non-hardcore pvp corps and even alliances it's a serious problem. People tend to fly what they like to fly, which often means that specific ships that would be needed, be it logistics or something else, are not present. Logistics aren't the solution in any case, they merely allow you to survive, not kill.
Nanoships are tanked (via speed), have usually decent damage, and can tackle, all at the same time. This is a real problem here. A nanogang doesn't really need "roles", they pretty much do it all. A 10-man nano-HAC gang will annihilate a 10-man normal HAC gang, because the normal HAC gang will have no counter. Because the ship types are essentially the same, this illustrates the lack of balance due to a certain style of fitting very well. The damage-dealing Astarte will be useless with nanos or Huginns/Rapiers on his side to tackle, making those specific types of ships mandatory to have, thus pointing to imbalance.
In IAC, at times we had constant visits from certain people flying Vagas solo. Entire small fleets (over 10 people) often couldn't catch them - and that included Huginns and Rapiers quite often, and of course several ceptors etc. The vagas could simply move back to a gate after jumping into our gang, since even if it got webbed, it had enough velocity from the acceleration to make it to the gate anyway - and plenty of time to accelerate before lock kicks in with the lag factor (anyone who has done gate camps knows of this). So it was endless ping pong between two systems quite often. Tell me, what other kind of ship than a nano (and perhaps a cloaked ship with luck) can survive jumping solo into a gang/fleet of ships?
But in the end it's all very simple. You only need to look at how many nanoships are around these days. Then factor in the well known fact that people generally use what is the most powerful (also known as "flavor of the month"). You figure out the rest... bud. I'm done wasting my time with clueless people
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 18:48:00 -
[579]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 18:51:21
Originally by: Tehyarec How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs.
You do not want balance you want nerf, balance can never be achieved because some fits and styles will always be more effective against others types unless you mix your gang up and work as a team, that is just the way it is pal.
Originally by: Tehyarec For non-hardcore pvp corps and even alliances it's a serious problem.
The game should not be lessened and abilities removed just because some ppl are not willing to improve themselves in the game or have a variety of ships available and be willing to fly them.
Like i say you are not looking for balance you looking to reduce all pvp to your low level instead of improving yourself and your corps preparedness.
Originally by: Tehyarec People tend to fly what they like to fly, which often means that specific ships that would be needed, be it logistics or something else, are not present. Logistics aren't the solution in any case, they merely allow you to survive, not kill.
If ppl are unwilling to fly a effective pvp ship that improves their chances of victory that is their choice and the very worst reason for removing the options for others.
Originally by: Tehyarec Nanoships are tanked (via speed), have usually decent damage, and can tackle, all at the same time.
Wrong, to hit anything most NANO need to slow, and to tackle they need to get close these are two of their vulnerabilities and there are more.
Originally by: Tehyarec This is a real problem here. A nanogang doesn't really need "roles", they pretty much do it all. A 10-man nano-HAC gang will annihilate a 10-man normal HAC gang, because the normal HAC gang will have no counter.
That actually depends on the hacs as a few can track nano easily and with focus fire the nano will melt. But even so you are using 1 type of ship and style against 1 type of ship and style and lots of examples of one style owning another can be given for that.
A mixed gang using the strengths of many classes and ship bonuses is the ultimate gang setup and would wipe the floor with a singly fitted gang including nano. Now that is a game in balance bud, when a mix of all with their specific bonuses is stronger than a single style.
Originally by: Tehyarec The damage-dealing Astarte will be useless with nanos or Huginns/Rapiers on his side to tackle, making those specific types of ships mandatory to have, thus pointing to imbalance.
Wrong again imbalance is not one ship or fit being better at 1 v 1 than another, that is a bloody stupid way of trying to balance things cos who ever would the win the 1 v 1 fight by your reckoning of balance should be nerfed, then after the nerf the next guy can win so his fit gets nerfed....and on..and on...
Here is balance bud:
BALANCE is when every skill book ship type and fit is available to all players and has a counter that is available to all players and if certain ppl choose not to use the fits that counter others that is their choice, their fault and if they die their problem for being stupid.
What your talking about is a utter lack of variety that will require nerf after nerf until we are all sitting in the same ship with the same fit.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 18:48:00 -
[580]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 19:32:53
Originally by: Tehyarec How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs.
You do not want balance you want nerf, YOUR IDEA of balance can never be achieved because some fits and styles will always be more effective against others types unless you mix your gang up and work as a team, that is just the way it is pal.
Originally by: Tehyarec For non-hardcore pvp corps and even alliances it's a serious problem.
The game should not be lessened and abilities removed just because some ppl are not willing to improve themselves in the game or have a variety of ships available and be willing to fly them.
Like i say you are not looking for balance you looking to nerf/reduce all pvp to your low level instead of improving yourself and your corps preparedness.
Originally by: Tehyarec People tend to fly what they like to fly, which often means that specific ships that would be needed, be it logistics or something else, are not present. Logistics aren't the solution in any case, they merely allow you to survive, not kill.
If ppl are unwilling to fly a effective pvp ship that improves their chances of victory that is their choice and the very worst reason for removing the options for others. And you are wrong their is no unimportant ship in a good mixed gang each has a role within the team that makes it stronger than the sum of its parts.
Originally by: Tehyarec Nanoships are tanked (via speed), have usually decent damage, and can tackle, all at the same time.
Wrong, to hit anything most NANO need to slow, and to tackle they need to get close to the ship they are tackling these are two of their vulnerabilities against the slower ships in a mixed gang and there are more.
Originally by: Tehyarec This is a real problem here. A nanogang doesn't really need "roles", they pretty much do it all. A 10-man nano-HAC gang will annihilate a 10-man normal HAC gang, because the normal HAC gang will have no counter.
That actually depends on the hacs as a few can track nano easily and with focus fire the nano will melt. But even so you are using 1 type of ship and style against 1 type of ship and style and lots of examples of one style owning another can be given for that.
A mixed gang using the strengths of many classes and ship bonuses is the ultimate gang setup and would wipe the floor with a singly fitted gang including nano. Now that is a game in balance bud, when a mix of all with their specific bonuses is stronger than a single style.
Originally by: Tehyarec The damage-dealing Astarte will be useless with nanos or Huginns/Rapiers on his side to tackle, making those specific types of ships mandatory to have, thus pointing to imbalance.
Wrong again imbalance is not one ship or fit being better at 1 v 1 than another, that is a bloody stupid way of trying to balance things cos who ever would the win the 1 v 1 fight by your reckoning of balance should be nerfed, then after the nerf the next guy can win so his fit gets nerfed....and on..and on...
Here is balance bud:
BALANCE is when every skill book ship type and fit is available to all players and has a counter that is available to all players and if certain ppl choose not to use the fits that counter others that is their choice, their fault and if they die their problem for being stupid.
What your talking about is a utter lack of variety and nerfing anything that takes a good balanced gang to kill cos you do not wanna fly in or be bothered to put together good balanced gangs.
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions Divine Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:52:00 -
[581]
All these nano peeps saying learn to play. I ask them to do the same.
Speed is broken. Why can you not accept it?
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Redback911
Malevolent Intentions Divine Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:52:00 -
[582]
All these nano peeps saying learn to play. I ask them to do the same.
Speed is broken. Why can you not accept it?
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:59:00 -
[583]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 20:00:14
Originally by: Redback911 All these nano peeps saying learn to play. I ask them to do the same.
Speed is broken. Why can you not accept it?
Speed is fine, and as with a lot of pvpers i have no problem with additions like:
1.Mwd killing scram.
2. Scripts for webs like ammo.
10km = 90% script 12km = 80% script 14km = 70% script 16km = 60% script 18km = 50% script 20km = 40% script
Or other ranges vs str ratio's depending on actual testing.
With overheat the 20km/40% web will slow tacklers that stay at close to the 24km point range.
No need to mess with modules or speed just implement these and leave killing nano ships to the players as it should be.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 19:59:00 -
[584]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 21:00:34
Originally by: Redback911 All these nano peeps saying learn to play. I ask them to do the same.
Speed is broken. Why can you not accept it?
Speed is fine and a essential part of the game for many reasons, and as with a lot of pvpers i have no problem with additions like:
1.Mwd killing scram.
2. Scripts for webs like ammo.
10km = 90% script 12km = 80% script 14km = 70% script 16km = 60% script 18km = 50% script 20km = 40% script
Or other ranges vs str ratio's depending on actual testing.
With overheat the 20km/40% web will slow tacklers that stay at close to the 24km point range.
No need to mess with modules or speed just implement these and leave killing nano ships to the players as it should be.
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Cornette
Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:05:00 -
[585]
Edited by: Cornette on 14/10/2008 21:18:42
Originally by: Murina
1.Mwd killing scram.
2. Scripts for webs like ammo.
10km = 90% script 12km = 80% script 14km = 70% script 16km = 60% script 18km = 50% script 20km = 40% script
I don't like nr 1. because it will be the death of blasterships for soloplay. Not that a blastership will be that much use anyway if CCP goes through with the mwd / base velocity nerf of every ship in EVE, something Bellum Eternus proved time and again, if the DEVS can be bothered to read his threads.
Instead I think nr 2. is the right idea for this whole problem. Scripted webs would open up for FOCUSED WEBBING and work very much like focused fire do now. Let say 3 or 4 ships is in a gang in the same spot: 1 ship with scripted web won't do much of a difference unless the nanopilot is stupid, but the 4 together can quickly stop a nano dead in the tracks, and pop him.
The more I think of it the more this solution sound so easy. Makes you wonder why we don't see this instead of the other crap
EDIT: I'm a bit tired so when I looked over this a second time after I hit post button I realized it was a bit weird. People do focused webbing already today, but unless you have the skills and the right specialist ship/gear the usual 10km web of today are in most situations inadequate to stop a hostile nano.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:21:00 -
[586]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 21:26:53
Originally by: Cornette
Originally by: Murina
1.Mwd killing scram.
2. Scripts for webs like ammo.
10km = 90% script 12km = 80% script 14km = 70% script 16km = 60% script 18km = 50% script 20km = 40% script
I don't like nr 1. because it will be the death of blasterships for soloplay. Not that a blastership will be that much use anyway if CCP goes through with the mwd / base velocity nerf of every ship in EVE, something Bellum Eternus proved time and again, if the DEVS can be bothered to read his threads.
Instead I think nr 2. is the right idea for this whole problem. Scripted webs would open up for FOCUSED WEBBING and work very much like focused fire do now. Let say 3 or 4 ships is in a gang in the same spot: 1 ship with scripted web won't do much of a difference unless the nanopilot is stupid, but the 4 together can quickly stop a nano dead in the tracks, and pop him.
The more I think of it the more this solution sound so easy. Makes you wonder why we don't see this instead of the other crap
Coz i iz total uber and dey aint
The basic idea was for "fall off" webs but the programmers said nope, so scripts seemed the obvious answer and stacking would make sure they were not to overpowered. A fast reload would allow for quick changes to be available in combat as well so as you get closer you can increase web str with both sides having a chance to move to a preferred range.
Originally by: Cornette EDIT: I'm a bit tired so when I looked over this a second time after I hit post button I realized it was a bit weird. People do focused webbing already today, but unless you have the skills and the right specialist ship/gear the usual 10km web of today are in most situations inadequate to stop a hostile nano.
That is because at only 10km range even if he does a close range flyby and you hit your web at the perfect time you only have 20km to slow him. But 40km for a fly by you have plenty to slow him and fully tackle him.
Or if your gang has missiles in the air he is in big trouble as those already chasing him suddenly catch up and..splat.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:21:00 -
[587]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 21:26:53
Originally by: Cornette
Originally by: Murina
1.Mwd killing scram.
2. Scripts for webs like ammo.
10km = 90% script 12km = 80% script 14km = 70% script 16km = 60% script 18km = 50% script 20km = 40% script
I don't like nr 1. because it will be the death of blasterships for soloplay. Not that a blastership will be that much use anyway if CCP goes through with the mwd / base velocity nerf of every ship in EVE, something Bellum Eternus proved time and again, if the DEVS can be bothered to read his threads.
Instead I think nr 2. is the right idea for this whole problem. Scripted webs would open up for FOCUSED WEBBING and work very much like focused fire do now. Let say 3 or 4 ships is in a gang in the same spot: 1 ship with scripted web won't do much of a difference unless the nanopilot is stupid, but the 4 together can quickly stop a nano dead in the tracks, and pop him.
The more I think of it the more this solution sound so easy. Makes you wonder why we don't see this instead of the other crap
Coz i iz total uber and dey aint
The basic idea was for "fall off" webs but the programmers said nope, so scripts seemed the obvious answer and stacking would make sure they were not to overpowered. A fast reload would allow for quick changes to be available in combat as well so as you get closer you can increase web str with both sides having a chance to move to a preferred range.
Originally by: Cornette EDIT: I'm a bit tired so when I looked over this a second time after I hit post button I realized it was a bit weird. People do focused webbing already today, but unless you have the skills and the right specialist ship/gear the usual 10km web of today are in most situations inadequate to stop a hostile nano.
That is because at only 10km range even if he does a close range flyby and you hit your web at the perfect time you only have 20km to slow him. But 40km for a fly by you have plenty to slow him and fully tackle him.
Or if your gang has missiles in the air he is in big trouble as those already chasing him suddenly catch up and..splat.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:21:00 -
[588]
Edited by: Murina on 14/10/2008 21:26:53
Originally by: Cornette
Originally by: Murina
1.Mwd killing scram.
2. Scripts for webs like ammo.
10km = 90% script 12km = 80% script 14km = 70% script 16km = 60% script 18km = 50% script 20km = 40% script
I don't like nr 1. because it will be the death of blasterships for soloplay. Not that a blastership will be that much use anyway if CCP goes through with the mwd / base velocity nerf of every ship in EVE, something Bellum Eternus proved time and again, if the DEVS can be bothered to read his threads.
Instead I think nr 2. is the right idea for this whole problem. Scripted webs would open up for FOCUSED WEBBING and work very much like focused fire do now. Let say 3 or 4 ships is in a gang in the same spot: 1 ship with scripted web won't do much of a difference unless the nanopilot is stupid, but the 4 together can quickly stop a nano dead in the tracks, and pop him.
The more I think of it the more this solution sound so easy. Makes you wonder why we don't see this instead of the other crap
Coz i iz total uber and dey aint
The basic idea was for "fall off" webs but the programmers said nope, so scripts seemed the obvious answer and stacking would make sure they were not to overpowered. A fast reload would allow for quick changes to be available in combat as well so as you get closer you can increase web str with both sides having a chance to move to a preferred range.
Originally by: Cornette EDIT: I'm a bit tired so when I looked over this a second time after I hit post button I realized it was a bit weird. People do focused webbing already today, but unless you have the skills and the right specialist ship/gear the usual 10km web of today are in most situations inadequate to stop a hostile nano.
That is because at only 10km range even if he does a close range flyby and you hit your web at the perfect time you only have 20km to slow him. But 40km for a fly by you have plenty to slow him and fully tackle him.
Or if your gang has missiles in the air he is in big trouble as those already chasing him suddenly catch up and..splat.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.14 22:04:00 -
[589]
Originally by: Tehyarec How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs.
Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.14 22:04:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Tehyarec How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs.
Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.14 22:04:00 -
[591]
Originally by: Tehyarec How damn hard can it be to realize it is NOT balanced. Not every gang can have the ideal mix of ships, especially in smaller gangs.
Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.15 00:39:00 -
[592]
Originally by: lebrata So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?
Never said that, now did I? Isn't it enough that you try to defend what is essentially an undefendable position, do you really also need to make stuff up to try to make yourself look good? Sad.
Originally by: lebrata Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting along with preparedness in a alliance
Think what you will, but oddly enough generally my enemies take heavier casualties than I do. Even nanos. I've flown in ships of all (non-capital) sizes in PVP with good success, in gangs of all sizes. I've successfully tackled nano-Ishtars that moved faster than my Stiletto, just because they sucked at choosing flight paths. I've also tackled nanos that are stupid enough to fly in a straight line towards a warpable object when chased and scrambled by my ubernanoed ceptor gang member (but not webbed). Warp to 100 for the win. And so on. That doesn't change the fact that nanos are harder to kill than most other things.
And the sniper example? Just snipers isn't the same as snipers + superfast tacklers. Granted most snipers have tacklers, but I've seen plenty without as well, god knows why.
When a cruiser can outrun a non-nanoed interceptor, it's plain wrong, period.
When you need a well-balanced mixed gang to efficiently fight a gang that is nothing but nanos, it's plain wrong, period.
In most cases if nothing else, a vast majority of a nano gang can and will escape if things go south, and they can choose their fights to begin with.
You say I want to nerf others because I lack skill, but I say I want to nerf something that is overpowered and as such doesn't require much skill at all.
Just because I don't include every variable in existence in my every single post doesn't mean I don't know about them, it's simply too much work and would lead to novels, not forum posts - frankly my posts are too long as it is. Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off. Period. Spider-tanked logistics? Sure you'll survive, but again that doesn't mean you can necessarily kill the enemy, and in a smaller gang you're not likely going to be spider-tanking. Same with jamming etc, sure you can jam the nanos, but you still need to catch them to kill them.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.15 00:39:00 -
[593]
Edited by: Tehyarec on 15/10/2008 00:56:38
Originally by: lebrata So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?
Never said that, now did I? Isn't it enough that you try to defend what is essentially an undefendable position, do you really also need to make stuff up to try to make yourself look good? Sad.
Originally by: lebrata Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting along with preparedness in a alliance
Think what you will, but oddly enough even though I'm inactive relatively much and as such might not have the million kills of more activey players, generally my enemies take heavier casualties than I do. Even nanos. I've flown in ships of all (non-capital) sizes in PVP with good success, in gangs of all sizes, in all sorts of ops. I've successfully tackled nano-Ishtars that moved faster than my Stiletto, just because they sucked at choosing flight paths. I've also tackled nanos that are stupid enough to fly in a straight line towards a warpable object when chased and scrambled by my ubernanoed ceptor gang member (but not webbed). Warp to 100 for the win. And so on. That doesn't change the fact that nanos are harder to kill than most other things.
And the sniper example? Just snipers isn't the same as snipers + superfast tacklers. Granted most snipers have tacklers, but I've seen plenty without as well, god knows why.
When a cruiser can outrun a non-nanoed interceptor, it's plain wrong, period.
When you need a well-balanced mixed gang to efficiently fight a gang that is nothing but nanos, it's plain wrong, period.
In most cases if nothing else, a vast majority of a nano gang can and will escape if things go south, and they can choose their fights to begin with.
You say I want to nerf others because I lack skill, but I say I want to nerf something that is overpowered and as such doesn't require much skill at all.
Just because I don't include every variable in existence in my every single post doesn't mean I don't know about them, it's simply too much work and would lead to novels, not forum posts - frankly my posts are too long as it is. Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off. Period. Spider-tanked logistics? Sure you'll survive, but again that doesn't mean you can necessarily kill the enemy, and in a smaller gang you're not likely going to be spider-tanking. Same with jamming etc, sure you can jam the nanos, but you still need to catch them to kill them.
EDIT: Funnily enough you suggest all the "real PVPers" would have just balanced gangs with spider logistics and everything, in your words "prepared". Interesting, because in my fights against BoB (and similar hardcore PVP alliances) roaming gangs (which is where nanos are used the most heavily), I didn't all too often run into logistics ships and very few other support ships, basically just DPS ships instead. I guess they really suck and should go back to ratting..?
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.15 00:39:00 -
[594]
Edited by: Tehyarec on 15/10/2008 00:56:38
Originally by: lebrata So you think types of weapons are what defines a pvp ship?
Never said that, now did I? Isn't it enough that you try to defend what is essentially an undefendable position, do you really also need to make stuff up to try to make yourself look good? Sad.
Originally by: lebrata Every one of your pathetic responses show just how little you know about pvp, nano and smart recruiting along with preparedness in a alliance
Think what you will, but oddly enough even though I'm inactive relatively much and as such might not have the million kills of more activey players, generally my enemies take heavier casualties than I do. Even nanos. I've flown in ships of all (non-capital) sizes in PVP with good success, in gangs of all sizes, in all sorts of ops. I've successfully tackled nano-Ishtars that moved faster than my Stiletto, just because they sucked at choosing flight paths. I've also tackled nanos that are stupid enough to fly in a straight line towards a warpable object when chased and scrambled by my ubernanoed ceptor gang member (but not webbed). Warp to 100 for the win. And so on. That doesn't change the fact that nanos are harder to kill than most other things.
And the sniper example? Just snipers isn't the same as snipers + superfast tacklers. Granted most snipers have tacklers, but I've seen plenty without as well, god knows why.
When a cruiser can outrun a non-nanoed interceptor, it's plain wrong, period.
When you need a well-balanced mixed gang to efficiently fight a gang that is nothing but nanos, it's plain wrong, period.
In most cases if nothing else, a vast majority of a nano gang can and will escape if things go south, and they can choose their fights to begin with.
You say I want to nerf others because I lack skill, but I say I want to nerf something that is overpowered and as such doesn't require much skill at all.
Just because I don't include every variable in existence in my every single post doesn't mean I don't know about them, it's simply too much work and would lead to novels, not forum posts - frankly my posts are too long as it is. Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off. Period. Spider-tanked logistics? Sure you'll survive, but again that doesn't mean you can necessarily kill the enemy, and in a smaller gang you're not likely going to be spider-tanking. Same with jamming etc, sure you can jam the nanos, but you still need to catch them to kill them.
EDIT: Funnily enough you suggest all the "real PVPers" would have just balanced gangs with spider logistics and everything, in your words "prepared". Interesting, because in my fights against BoB (and similar hardcore PVP alliances) roaming gangs (which is where nanos are used the most heavily), I didn't all too often run into logistics ships and very few other support ships, basically just DPS ships instead. I guess they really suck and should go back to ratting..?
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.15 00:41:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Esmenet Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
The point is nano gangs basically DON'T need a balanced gang, whereas non-nanos do. There's a difference there if you look hard enough.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.15 00:41:00 -
[596]
Originally by: Esmenet Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
The point is nano gangs basically DON'T need a balanced gang, whereas non-nanos do. There's a difference there if you look hard enough.
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.15 00:41:00 -
[597]
Originally by: Esmenet Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
The point is nano gangs basically DON'T need a balanced gang, whereas non-nanos do. There's a difference there if you look hard enough.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:32:00 -
[598]
why doesnt ccp just call it what it is,
destroying minmitar.
id love to hear what ship would be remotely usefull after this nano nerf thats minmitar.
i now have to take 2 months to cross train amarr because you destroyed minmitar. Dont you see people will just find a new niche and use it. Youll nerf it, theyll find a new one and so on. You wanna nerf something nerf lag.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:32:00 -
[599]
why doesnt ccp just call it what it is,
destroying minmitar.
id love to hear what ship would be remotely usefull after this nano nerf thats minmitar.
i now have to take 2 months to cross train amarr because you destroyed minmitar. Dont you see people will just find a new niche and use it. Youll nerf it, theyll find a new one and so on. You wanna nerf something nerf lag.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.15 01:32:00 -
[600]
why doesnt ccp just call it what it is,
destroying minmitar.
id love to hear what ship would be remotely usefull after this nano nerf thats minmitar.
i now have to take 2 months to cross train amarr because you destroyed minmitar. Dont you see people will just find a new niche and use it. Youll nerf it, theyll find a new one and so on. You wanna nerf something nerf lag.
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Brka
Caldari H A V O C Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:18:00 -
[601]
I have to say now that I've had a friend check the test server while I observed (he has an average minny vaga pilot) that this nerf is way too heavy handed. Way too heavy handed.
I usually reserve bad ratings for when CCP really doesn't think about the things they do. It seems more now than ever that CCP just does things and says this is going to be how it is. Sorry if you don't like it. Ha Ha.
Most of the changes I see seem to be going towards blob online as stated by others and boredom online (industrial patch). Sorry CCP Black Ops (useless and over priced, nice pre-nerf) and Marauders didn't do much for pvp.
I think there is way to many QA/QC guys in the Dev group now or the Devs have hired way too many people who don't truly understand what balance really is.
It's not going to make me quit but it sure will make the game much less interesting since the nerf is limiting a play style. Limiting options hurts games like EVE where options and differences in play is what makes the game. There is a fine line between balance and screwing something up because you lack the vision to fix it creatively.
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Brka
Caldari H A V O C Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:18:00 -
[602]
I have to say now that I've had a friend check the test server while I observed (he has an average minny vaga pilot) that this nerf is way too heavy handed. Way too heavy handed.
I usually reserve bad ratings for when CCP really doesn't think about the things they do. It seems more now than ever that CCP just does things and says this is going to be how it is. Sorry if you don't like it. Ha Ha.
Most of the changes I see seem to be going towards blob online as stated by others and boredom online (industrial patch). Sorry CCP Black Ops (useless and over priced, nice pre-nerf) and Marauders didn't do much for pvp.
I think there is way to many QA/QC guys in the Dev group now or the Devs have hired way too many people who don't truly understand what balance really is.
It's not going to make me quit but it sure will make the game much less interesting since the nerf is limiting a play style. Limiting options hurts games like EVE where options and differences in play is what makes the game. There is a fine line between balance and screwing something up because you lack the vision to fix it creatively.
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Brka
Caldari H A V O C Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 06:18:00 -
[603]
I have to say now that I've had a friend check the test server while I observed (he has an average minny vaga pilot) that this nerf is way too heavy handed. Way too heavy handed.
I usually reserve bad ratings for when CCP really doesn't think about the things they do. It seems more now than ever that CCP just does things and says this is going to be how it is. Sorry if you don't like it. Ha Ha.
Most of the changes I see seem to be going towards blob online as stated by others and boredom online (industrial patch). Sorry CCP Black Ops (useless and over priced, nice pre-nerf) and Marauders didn't do much for pvp.
I think there is way to many QA/QC guys in the Dev group now or the Devs have hired way too many people who don't truly understand what balance really is.
It's not going to make me quit but it sure will make the game much less interesting since the nerf is limiting a play style. Limiting options hurts games like EVE where options and differences in play is what makes the game. There is a fine line between balance and screwing something up because you lack the vision to fix it creatively.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:38:00 -
[604]
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: Esmenet Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
The point is nano gangs basically DON'T need a balanced gang, whereas non-nanos do. There's a difference there if you look hard enough.
LOL. I dont think you understand nanogangs.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:38:00 -
[605]
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: Esmenet Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
The point is nano gangs basically DON'T need a balanced gang, whereas non-nanos do. There's a difference there if you look hard enough.
LOL. I dont think you understand nanogangs.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.15 06:38:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Tehyarec
Originally by: Esmenet Indeed we should all fly the same ship to make sure everything is "fair". I suggest ibises.
The point is nano gangs basically DON'T need a balanced gang, whereas non-nanos do. There's a difference there if you look hard enough.
LOL. I dont think you understand nanogangs.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.15 09:59:00 -
[607]
Edited by: Murina on 15/10/2008 10:18:37
Originally by: Tehyarec
When a cruiser can outrun a non-nanoed interceptor, it's plain wrong, period.
Rubbish you cannot screw over ships fitted for speed by comparing them to non speed fitted ships.
Originally by: Tehyarec When you need a well-balanced mixed gang to efficiently fight a gang that is nothing but nanos, it's plain wrong, period.
Rubbish nano can be beat or stalemated by several setups a mixed gang is just best at it.
Originally by: Tehyarec In most cases if nothing else, a vast majority of a nano gang can and will escape if things go south, and they can choose their fights to begin with.
Any gang with pilots that knows how to align their ships can get out with minimal losses if things go bad and EVERY type of gang in eve has the option to engage or not.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off. Period.
So you agree a solo ratting ship can force of a fully (so called i-win button) spec'd pvp fitted ship looking for kills to run by fitting a single module?.
WTF do you want?????.
Originally by: Tehyarec Spider-tanked logistics? Sure you'll survive, but again that doesn't mean you can necessarily kill the enemy, and in a smaller gang you're not likely going to be spider-tanking. Same with jamming etc, sure you can jam the nanos, but you still need to catch them to kill them.
That why you bring some of each type of ship including tacklers and dmg dealers, every ship has its job. Logistics are just part of the setup.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.15 09:59:00 -
[608]
Edited by: Murina on 15/10/2008 12:00:57
Originally by: Tehyarec
When a cruiser can outrun a non-nanoed interceptor, it's plain wrong, period.
Rubbish you cannot screw over ships fitted for speed by comparing them to non speed fitted ships.
Originally by: Tehyarec When you need a well-balanced mixed gang to efficiently fight a gang that is nothing but nanos, it's plain wrong, period.
Rubbish nano can be beat or stalemated by several setups a mixed gang is just best at it (and against any other setup in eve as it happens, maybe you should nerf it?).
Originally by: Tehyarec In most cases if nothing else, a vast majority of a nano gang can and will escape if things go south, and they can choose their fights to begin with.
Any gang with pilots that know how to align (basic combat flying) their ships can get out with minimal losses if things go bad and EVERY type of gang in eve has the option to engage or not.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off. Period.
So you agree a solo ratting ship can force of a fully (so called i-win button) specd pvp fitted ship looking for kills to run by fitting a single module?.
WTF do you want???? a ratting fit with no tackle and only a nuet to beat and kill a fully specd pvp fitted ship?????. GO AWAY.
Originally by: Tehyarec Spider-tanked logistics? Sure you'll survive, but again that doesn't mean you can necessarily kill the enemy, and in a smaller gang you're not likely going to be spider-tanking. Same with jamming etc, sure you can jam the nanos, but you still need to catch them to kill them.
That why you bring some of each type of ship including tacklers and dmg dealers, every ship has its job. Logistics are just part of a good pvp setup no matter the size. 1 logistic, 1 drake with damps, 1 tackler is a SMALL & funky but effective fit against your SMALL 3 man nano hac gang (in fact its pretty effective against most 3 ship gangs apart from maybe 3 RR BS).
PVP 101 for whining carebears:
NON localized tanking (no actual tank on your own ship for the ignorant) is highly effective and can open up a lot of slots on the other combat vessels in your gang making you massively more effective as a small unit.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.15 10:18:00 -
[609]
Edited by: lebrata on 15/10/2008 10:18:55
Originally by: lebrata Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off.
Here is the real issue for you and the rest aint it pal.
You have spent all that time killing rats and living in a dream world where your a great pilot and ship killer, having day dreams about your awesomeness. Then a vaga comes along and kicks your butt cos you were fitted with no nuet or any other form of pvp module and it bursts your little bubble.
A ratting ship forcing a pure pvp fitted ship like a vaga to disengage just by fitting a single nuet is a huge benefit to the ratting ship but you seem to think that its not enough...so what your mission running piece of crap should now be able to make pvp pilots stupid and sit still so you can shoot them as they do in your day dreams?.
The above attitude is your problem pal in a nut shell, your lazy, unimaginative (unless its a dream about how uber at pvp you think you are) and unwilling to improve yourself or modify your thinking.
You and ppl like you will be the downfall of eve.
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.15 10:18:00 -
[610]
Edited by: lebrata on 15/10/2008 11:53:51
Originally by: lebrata Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off.
Here is the real issue for you and the rest aint it pal.
You have spent all that time killing rats and living in a imaginary world where your a great pilot and uber ship killer, and having day dreams about your awesomeness. Then a vaga comes along and it bursts your little bubble by not sitting still like the rats do.
A RATTING ship forcing a pure PVP fitted ship like a vaga to disengage just by fitting a single nuet is a HUGE benefit to the ratting ship but you seem to think that its not enough...so what your mission running piece of crap should now be able to make PVP pilots stupid and sit still so you can shoot them as they do in your day dreams?.
The above attitude is your problem pal in a nut shell, your lazy, unimaginative (unless its a dream about how uber at pvp you think you are) and unwilling to improve yourself or modify your thinking.
You and ppl like you will be the downfall of eve.
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Andre Coeurl
Gallente TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.15 11:06:00 -
[611]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 15/10/2008 10:39:07
Originally by: lebrata Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off.
Here is the real issue for you and the rest aint it pal.
You have spent all that time killing rats and living in a dream world where your a great pilot and ship killer, having day dreams about your awesomeness. Then a vaga comes along and it bursts your little bubble by not sitting still like the rats do.
A ratting ship forcing a pure pvp fitted ship like a vaga to disengage just by fitting a single nuet is a huge benefit to the ratting ship but you seem to think that its not enough...so what your mission running piece of crap should now be able to make pvp pilots stupid and sit still so you can shoot them as they do in your day dreams?.
The above attitude is your problem pal in a nut shell, your lazy, unimaginative (unless its a dream about how uber at pvp you think you are) and unwilling to improve yourself or modify your thinking.
You and ppl like you will be the downfall of eve.
/signed
Even though I'm not at all a PVP player, it's the risk and the variety that makes this game great. If CCP will go on with this type of changes that hit the great aspects of EVE, either because they listen to the more active whiners or because they somehow want to make the game easier for new players, while still leaving a lot of space for macroers and avoiding obvious improvements, they will kill their own game (and workplace BTW). --- --- ---
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IkronI
Amarr MELLOW HUNTERS Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.15 11:43:00 -
[612]
Interesting thing - why do you want to nerf nano HACs and dont touch raven. If you think HACs are uber in pvp, raven is uber for pve. Maybe you should nerf it? Raven can be fitted with 6 cruise launchers and 2 heavy neutralizers, its missiles can hit target in 200 km range, is it not uber? Maybe you should rebalance battleships, for any race can have ideal BS for hunt? Amarrian ships have a very big trouble - only two types of damage, hunting Angels for example is tragedy.
That my IMHO
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.15 14:01:00 -
[613]
Originally by: lebrata Edited by: lebrata on 15/10/2008 11:53:51
Originally by: lebrata Are you drunk?..have you heard of nuets?, a solo vaga has no chance to kill a solo BS with even a single nuet fitted, and any ship can just run away that is a stalemate. Not bad considering the nano is a purely offensive pvp fit and fitting a heavy nuet can be done on all PVE fits.
Originally by: Tehyarec Neuts? Only one? Vaga runs off.
Here is the real issue for you and the rest aint it pal.
You have spent all that time killing rats and living in a imaginary world where your a great pilot and uber ship killer, and having day dreams about your awesomeness. Then a vaga comes along and it bursts your little bubble by not sitting still like the rats do.
A RATTING ship forcing a pure PVP fitted ship like a vaga to disengage just by fitting a single nuet is a HUGE benefit to the ratting ship but you seem to think that its not enough...so what your mission running piece of crap should now be able to make PVP pilots stupid and sit still so you can shoot them as they do in your day dreams?.
The above attitude is your problem pal in a nut shell, your lazy, unimaginative (unless its a dream about how uber at pvp you think you are) and unwilling to improve yourself or modify your thinking.
You and ppl like you will be the downfall of eve.
Well said.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.15 18:55:00 -
[614]
I agree with whatever Murina has said so far except one point.
MWD killed by a scrambler screws up every kind of close range ships. Blasters/ACs become obsolete and they were already hard to pull off. Worst hit goes to ships with MWD bonus (Deimos/Thorax) since their bonus implies the use of MWD and close range dps fits. Any reasonable tackler will be using at least one scrambler and a smart gang will use ships like the Arazu and all kinds of close ranged ships will be halted to a crawl before they even get close to 2*fallout range. This change alone will bring the total domination of ranged combat.
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Mumemafu Praetoriam
Minmatar Comando Vermelho
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Posted - 2008.10.15 20:03:00 -
[615]
Edited by: Mumemafu Praetoriam on 15/10/2008 20:04:30 Well, since I got started Eve the Minmatar race is going to get a joke, we cant do damage, we cant do EWF, we cant Sniper like Great and Powerfull Raven, we cant make damage w drones like gallente and cant tank too, now we will lose the speed. So, the time will put all minmatar unde all races chains again, we'll back to figure like single slaves. Well I ll die before push back my minmatar honor to do f1-f8 blobStatics missiles.
cheers if yuo are not MinMatarLoser, like me.
Tempo de jogo restante: 6d:17h:53m wel time to get a break. now they suspend the off line skill for non "payable" does a matter, im minmatar I born like slave.
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Termopan
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Posted - 2008.10.16 07:54:00 -
[616]
i think ccp should leave the game as it is atm ...im in this game for 1 year and a half and all i saw were ****ing nerfs ..nerf nos nerf myrmidon nerf that nerf that oh yeah a crap boost ..forgot about that give 1 more turet to usless ships as FAILROX so ..5-6 nerfs 1 crap boost ...if this speed nerf will go trough they will losse a lot of customers tbh i dont think they realize that ..i think they got a fantezy with how people will switch races and keep playing ..well i can tell u that someone that invested 30-40 m skp in minmatar has perfect navigation skills and shit wont really accept this and will just simply quit the game ..they lost important people with the gtc change ..since the 60 day gtc's were the only ones to be found the char sell forums kinda went weeee on chars over 60-70 mil skp and again i say it ....people who want nerf ..press ctrl+q right now ..either u adapt to survive or just quit the game your self 80% of the people dont want nerf 20% want it ..nerf goese trough ...lot of people will kinda quit the game insteed of investing more time into something usefull atm that is gonna get nerfed in 3-4 months untill we will get to board a ship with crap tank crap dmg and go scram someone and trow a stone on his ship scratching for 0.1 paint dmg
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Braenca
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Posted - 2008.10.16 11:44:00 -
[617]
Originally by: Tyremis ... nerf it, theyll find a new one and so on. You wanna nerf something nerf lag.
Don't you see? that's wht they are doing! what with the speed nerf and the death of Ghost training, they are hopin that enough people will quit for the servers to be able to handle the numbers online .
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.16 19:34:00 -
[618]
Originally by: Termopan i think ccp should leave the game as it is atm ...im in this game for 1 year and a half and all i saw were ****ing nerfs ..nerf nos nerf myrmidon nerf that nerf that oh yeah a crap boost ..forgot about that give 1 more turet to usless ships as FAILROX so ..5-6 nerfs 1 crap boost ...if this speed nerf will go trough they will losse a lot of customers tbh i dont think they realize that ..i think they got a fantezy with how people will switch races and keep playing ..well i can tell u that someone that invested 30-40 m skp in minmatar has perfect navigation skills and shit wont really accept this and will just simply quit the game ..they lost important people with the gtc change ..since the 60 day gtc's were the only ones to be found the char sell forums kinda went weeee on chars over 60-70 mil skp and again i say it ....people who want nerf ..press ctrl+q right now ..either u adapt to survive or just quit the game your self 80% of the people dont want nerf 20% want it ..nerf goese trough ...lot of people will kinda quit the game insteed of investing more time into something usefull atm that is gonna get nerfed in 3-4 months untill we will get to board a ship with crap tank crap dmg and go scram someone and trow a stone on his ship scratching for 0.1 paint dmg
I've said it before and I'll say it again... The majority of the guys whining about this rebalence have been playing the game less that 2 yraes on the average. They havent been around long enough to know that EVE WAS FINE BEFORE NANOS AND IT WILL BE JUST FINE AFTER THEY ARE GONE. Hac's have always and will always be viable combat ships as will recons remain key to small gang survial and gurilla tactic sucsess.
Most vets knew the whole time that nanos were WAY outta line and those that flew them KNEW they would someday get toned down to realistic proportions. It was never a matter of 'if' it was a matter of when. CCp gave you a light sabre in the knife fight that is eve, enjoy it, but stop thinking its your 'right' to have it forever.
Eve was a great game before nannos, it will remain the best mmo out there when things are set right..
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.16 20:05:00 -
[619]
Edited by: Murina on 16/10/2008 20:12:19
Originally by: JVol
The majority of the guys whining about this rebalance have been playing the game less that 2 years on the average. They haven't been around long enough to know that EVE WAS FINE BEFORE NANOS AND IT WILL BE JUST FINE AFTER THEY ARE GONE. Hac's have always and will always be viable combat ships as will recons remain key to small gang survival and guerrilla tactic success.
The player base pre-nano had considerably less than 5k online at any time, no bubbles, no jump bridges, oh and frigate, destroyer and cruiser hulls (IE: small ships) could still speed tank with this nerf they cannot.
Oh yes and i am a 2003 player and i know from my experience that without speed in today's eve small ships are gonna be a utter waste of time to fly in gang combat cos they have no tank worth a damn with this nerf.
I would be interested to hear a post nano nerf combat scenario from you and how you think a gang vs gang battle will be step by step considering you think of yourself as a VET.
Cos i have tested the changes on sisi after this patch and the first one and gang combat was a joke and so was using anything smaller than a BC especially expensive hacs, even on sisi at 100isk each they were not worth flying over a BC in any of our tests.
PS: Most vets think this patch is absurd and a game/pvp ruiner, just look art all the posts and problems its causing already and we have hardly started testing it..
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Cian Deimos
Caldari Order of the Griffin
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Posted - 2008.10.16 23:08:00 -
[620]
To me it seems that the real issue is sustained speed and not just general speed. But the fixes are geared to speed in general. Why not just make the microwarp drives so they can't be on auto re-activation and give them a re-activation delay. This makes them useful for quickly getting into range for short range weapon fits while negating the invulnerability of sustained high speeds. With that very simple change you now fix the main issue. For ships that have a microwarp bonus you can simply adjust the bonus to maybe allow less re-activation delay or keep the speed bonus so they get to target faster or whatever. For ships like the interceptor that require sustained speeds then make their microwarp bonuses to negate the microwarp changes allowing them to auto re-activate and no re-activation delay.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.17 00:18:00 -
[621]
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 16/10/2008 20:51:03
Originally by: JVol
The majority of the guys whining about this rebalance have been playing the game less that 2 years on the average. They haven't been around long enough to know that EVE WAS FINE BEFORE NANOS AND IT WILL BE JUST FINE AFTER THEY ARE GONE. Hac's have always and will always be viable combat ships as will recons remain key to small gang survival and guerrilla tactic success.
The player base pre-nano had considerably less than 5k online at any time, no bubbles, no jump bridges, oh and frigate, destroyer and cruiser hulls (IE: small ships) could still speed tank, with this nerf they cannot.
Oh yes and i am a 2003 player and i know from my experience that without speed in today's eve small ships are gonna be a utter waste of time to fly in gang combat cos they have no tank worth a damn with this nerf.
I would be interested to hear a post nano nerf combat scenario from you and how you think a gang vs gang battle will be step by step considering you think of yourself as a VET.
Cos i have tested the changes on sisi after this patch and the first one and gang combat was a joke and so was using anything smaller than a BC especially expensive hacs, even on sisi at 100isk each they were not worth flying over a BC in any of our tests.
PS: Most vets think this patch is absurd and a game/pvp ruiner, just look at all the posts and problems its causing already and we have hardly started testing it.....and the best a VET nerf supporter like you can do is bleat on about eve 4 years ago.
Keep pulling random false facts outta your ass..
Lets JUST go back to a few months before NANNO everything came about.. It was what, middle of 06? We had bubbles all over, we had snipers and hacs and 18-20k online at a time.. We had blobs we had roaming small gangs.. geezz..we didnt have jump bridges or hott drops, but so ****ing what? We also have much more 'space' since then with all the new regions that have been opened up since then, so people arent as dencely populated as they used to be.
90% of the pro nano posts ARE NOT VETS, they are guys 2 years and under who came into the game when nanos were already here. Of course they trained the 'best' ships possible (anything nanno), problem is, they didnt train much else, hence all the crying. Go read some posts and tell me how many were here befor nanos, you wont find much, unless you count random false facts.. lol
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Kethry Avenger
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2008.10.17 04:30:00 -
[622]
So yeah still hoping for a recording of this to be made available...
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.17 08:58:00 -
[623]
Originally by: JVol blah blah dribble
I dunno what you were playin pal but around 04 was when nano came around, just because younger players are supporting the most skilled and fun kind of pvp style eve has ever seen is irrelevant.
Go back to ratting its not like this nerf is gonna make you any safer cos i can guarantee if it goes through pvpers aint gonna sit still and let morons like you pop them or start flying stupid setups that will give you a chance of winning in your ratting raven.
Still not willing to make a post nerf combat scenario?......didn't think so tbh easier to use empty and hollow words like "broken" and "balance" than to actually prove your points with positive and insightful combat scenarios. Although if you try we both know how stupid and naive you will look and that's why your not gonna.....
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.17 18:19:00 -
[624]
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 13:31:51
Originally by: JVol blah blah dribble nerf nerf
I dunno what you were playin pal but around 04 was when nano came around, just because younger players joined later and are supporting the most skilled and fun kind of pvp style eve has ever seen from being removed from the game is irrelevant.
I know its near imposable to kill a nano ship in a ratting setup but then personally i think it should be imposable, unfortunately the carebear faction does not seem to see it that way. I suppose sitting in belts or on missions all day dreaming of being uber combat pilots and getting those dreams crap'd on by a pvp fitted ship lends itself to bitterness. And instead of improving at actual pvp and having a array of pre fitted ships ready to jump into, they run like children straight to mommy crying for a nerf instead.
But your still not willing to make a post nerf combat scenario?......didn't think so tbh easier to use empty and hollow words like "broken" and "balance" than to actually prove or validate your points with positive and insightful combat scenarios. Although if you try we both know how stupid and naive you will look and that's why your not gonna do it.....
04? Dude, your So mis guided its not even funny, in o4 vagas and intys were 'fast' not SO fast that they took 0.0 damage tho, and nobody had ever even HEARD of 'speed tanking'. Its more than obvious that you werent pvp'ing then or you would know that.
As for me giving YOU scenarios?? lol Your kidding right? Funny thing is, speed IS broken atm, and CCP said so, ask them for'scenarios'! lol Ive never seen a 'vet' who thinks nanos predated 06, mostly CAUSE THERE WERE NO NANOS THEN. I guess whrn you bought your 03 char it must been during the nano phase and you figured you could bluff your way thru this argument with facts that are only tru in YOUR head! lol. tool.
The first nanos were NOT cruisers, in fact they were the domi and the phoon, it wasnt untill ccp nerfed them that the cruiser fad came into play.. Bottom line, ratting or pvp ships vs a nano one v one are STILL outclassed by nannos, you dont need me to illastrate 'scenarios' to you to prove that. 90% of solo 'PVP' ships CANT (bc/cruiser size)solo a nano AND kill it, best they can hope for is to chase em off, but you know that dontcha? ITS WHY YOUR STILL WHINING ABOUT LOSING YOUR nanos.
And btw, who's ERALLY stupid and naive, the guy whos STILL crying about a ship class thats had its day in the sun and IS GOING TO GET BALENCED ( by the OWNERS of the game!), or the guys whos accepted it already flys every ship class cause he didnt put all his eggs in ONE basket? I wonder if you cried this much when they 'balenced' wcs.. lol
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.17 19:00:00 -
[625]
Originally by: JVol 04? Dude, your So mis guided its not even funny, in o4 vagas and intys were 'fast' not SO fast that they took 0.0 damage tho, and nobody had ever even HEARD of 'speed tanking'.
Your dreaming pal speed and using it to reduce dmg has been around since 04, sheeeet even your beloved gospel speaking ccp has made "claims" about it being a broken mechanic since then although personally i think that was just a excuse and to try and drum up support for this nerf from the guys on the fence.
Originally by: JVol As for me giving YOU scenarios?? lol Your kidding right?
Like i said you would only make a fool of yourself if you tried so keep bailing muppet.
And i was not talking about a 1 v 1 nano vs ratter scenario i was talking about gang combat and tackling in small ship as one example of how this nerf sucks.
Originally by: JVol And btw, who's REALLY stupid and naive, the guy whos STILL crying about a ship class thats had its day in the sun and IS GOING TO GET BALANCED ( by the OWNERS of the game!), or the guys whos accepted it already flys every ship class cause he didnt put all his eggs in ONE basket?
Every ship class?, eggs in one basket? you think that having lots of lvl5 ship classes is summat special?.
Muppet i finished training gallente pvp a while ago (that is all gallente pvp btw apart from titan) and now am doing a bit of cross training into other races specific ships. Ive flown with some of the best pvp corporations in eve over the years and a lot of it non-nano.
Now if your so stupid that you cannot see how this nerf will destroy the usefulness a huge array of ship classes then your a total moron, NANO is not just about a bunch of muppets flying around in fast ships getting solo ganks its about the survivability of small ships along with many other HUGE issues that (if this nerf goes through) will open doors to abilities that i intend to EXPLOIT the hell out of probably in the home systems of the pro nerfit "wwwwaaa nano too hard" muppets like you.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.17 19:35:00 -
[626]
Edited by: Melegaunt Tanthul on 17/10/2008 19:44:11
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 13:31:51
Originally by: JVol blah blah dribble nerf nerf
I dunno what you were playin pal but around 04 was when nano came around, just because younger players joined later and are supporting the most skilled and fun kind of pvp style eve has ever seen from being removed from the game is irrelevant.
I know its near imposable to kill a nano ship in a ratting setup but then personally i think it should be imposable, unfortunately the carebear faction does not seem to see it that way. I suppose sitting in belts or on missions all day dreaming of being uber combat pilots and getting those dreams crap'd on by a pvp fitted ship lends itself to bitterness. And instead of improving at actual pvp and having a array of pre fitted ships ready to jump into, they run like children straight to mommy crying for a nerf instead.
But your still not willing to make a post nerf combat scenario?......didn't think so tbh easier to use empty and hollow words like "broken" and "balance" than to actually prove or validate your points with positive and insightful combat scenarios. Although if you try we both know how stupid and naive you will look and that's why your not gonna do it.....
04? Dude, your So mis guided its not even funny, in o4 vagas and intys were 'fast' not SO fast that they took 0.0 damage tho, and nobody had ever even HEARD of 'speed tanking'. Its more than obvious that you werent pvp'ing then or you would know that.
As for me giving YOU scenarios?? lol Your kidding right? Funny thing is, speed IS broken atm, and CCP said so, ask them for'scenarios'! lol Ive never seen a 'vet' who thinks nanos predated 06, mostly CAUSE THERE WERE NO NANOS THEN. I guess whrn you bought your 03 char it must been during the nano phase and you figured you could bluff your way thru this argument with facts that are only tru in YOUR head! lol. tool.
The first nanos were NOT cruisers, in fact they were the domi and the phoon, it wasnt untill ccp nerfed them that the cruiser fad came into play.. Bottom line, ratting or pvp ships vs a nano one v one are STILL outclassed by nannos, you dont need me to illastrate 'scenarios' to you to prove that. 90% of solo 'PVP' ships CANT (bc/cruiser size)solo a nano AND kill it, best they can hope for is to chase em off, but you know that dontcha? ITS WHY YOUR STILL WHINING ABOUT LOSING YOUR nanos.
And btw, who's ERALLY stupid and naive, the guy whos STILL crying about a ship class thats had its day in the sun and IS GOING TO GET BALENCED ( by the OWNERS of the game!), or the guys whos accepted it already flys every ship class cause he didnt put all his eggs in ONE basket? I wonder if you cried this much when they 'balenced' wcs.. lol
You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Before nanos there was still speed tanking. Multiple MWDs etc. The 10km/s domis back then were broken. Speed as it is today is not.
EDIT: And unless they figure out some sort of way for smaller ships to have survivability then they'll kill the majority of small ships with this nerf. No one will bother playing ships that can get alpha'd in the first 10secs of an encounter. So let's all get in our BSes and Caps and blob it out in 250km ranges while we die out of boredom and wait for the day clueless blob pvpers decide to cry nerf for another idiotic reason like Dreads shooting them for too much damage while in siege mode...
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.17 19:48:00 -
[627]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 17/10/2008 13:31:51
Originally by: JVol blah blah dribble nerf nerf
I dunno what you were playin pal but around 04 was when nano came around, just because younger players joined later and are supporting the most skilled and fun kind of pvp style eve has ever seen from being removed from the game is irrelevant.
I know its near imposable to kill a nano ship in a ratting setup but then personally i think it should be imposable, unfortunately the carebear faction does not seem to see it that way. I suppose sitting in belts or on missions all day dreaming of being uber combat pilots and getting those dreams crap'd on by a pvp fitted ship lends itself to bitterness. And instead of improving at actual pvp and having a array of pre fitted ships ready to jump into, they run like children straight to mommy crying for a nerf instead.
But your still not willing to make a post nerf combat scenario?......didn't think so tbh easier to use empty and hollow words like "broken" and "balance" than to actually prove or validate your points with positive and insightful combat scenarios. Although if you try we both know how stupid and naive you will look and that's why your not gonna do it.....
04? Dude, your So mis guided its not even funny, in o4 vagas and intys were 'fast' not SO fast that they took 0.0 damage tho, and nobody had ever even HEARD of 'speed tanking'. Its more than obvious that you werent pvp'ing then or you would know that.
As for me giving YOU scenarios?? lol Your kidding right? Funny thing is, speed IS broken atm, and CCP said so, ask them for'scenarios'! lol Ive never seen a 'vet' who thinks nanos predated 06, mostly CAUSE THERE WERE NO NANOS THEN. I guess whrn you bought your 03 char it must been during the nano phase and you figured you could bluff your way thru this argument with facts that are only tru in YOUR head! lol. tool.
The first nanos were NOT cruisers, in fact they were the domi and the phoon, it wasnt untill ccp nerfed them that the cruiser fad came into play.. Bottom line, ratting or pvp ships vs a nano one v one are STILL outclassed by nannos, you dont need me to illastrate 'scenarios' to you to prove that. 90% of solo 'PVP' ships CANT (bc/cruiser size)solo a nano AND kill it, best they can hope for is to chase em off, but you know that dontcha? ITS WHY YOUR STILL WHINING ABOUT LOSING YOUR nanos.
And btw, who's ERALLY stupid and naive, the guy whos STILL crying about a ship class thats had its day in the sun and IS GOING TO GET BALENCED ( by the OWNERS of the game!), or the guys whos accepted it already flys every ship class cause he didnt put all his eggs in ONE basket? I wonder if you cried this much when they 'balenced' wcs.. lol
You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Before nanos there was still speed tanking. Multiple MWDs etc. The 10km/s domis back then were broken. Speed as it is today is not.
OMFG!! Your not only WRONG your still not accepting the FACT that speed tanking is broke, (as the makers OF THE DAMN GAME HAVE SAID THEMSELVES!!)
What your refering to wasnt speed "tanking" multiple mdws wouldnt be sustained to provide any kind of a 'tank' you dumbazz.. It was primaraly used on ravens to run at a target from long range and alpha them with several vollys of torps... geezz.. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO 'speed tanking'.. try again.. lol, and btw.. NANOS are gone man, soon.. all this flailing you nano jockeys are doing trying to make arguments for how 'balenced' they are is just plain funny.. keep it up
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.17 20:31:00 -
[628]
Originally by: JVol
OMFG!! Your not only WRONG your still not accepting the FACT that speed tanking is broke, (as the makers OF THE DAMN GAME HAVE SAID THEMSELVES!!)
Your bleating on about how speed is broken and how your argument is valid because the game makers say so but the fact is that if they were so perfect or close to knowing about how the game should be then they would not have let things get "broken" in the first place ffs.
You cannot have it both ways pal if speed is broken (its not but hey go with me on this) as they claim then they broke it as they are the game designers after all.....so why put your faith in their correctness now?...oh that's right it serves your skilless carebear purposes...
This is not about anything broken its about factional warfare and cry baby caldari noobs crying to ccp cos their missile spams do not work without tackle. Look at all the attention missiles are getting while the fact that every small ship in the game and a lot of BS are now a waste of time to fly in gang combat ffs. You keep bleating on about how ccp are "fixing" nano pal but anybody with a brain knows they are screwing everybody to keep noobs and caldari morons happy.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.17 20:35:00 -
[629]
Edited by: Tyremis on 17/10/2008 20:35:48 replying to JVOL )
this coming from a guy who top 3 favorite ships are domi sleip and hurricane and the ishtar and vaga he flys he doesnt nano. Your no different than the caldari muppets screaming for change just because you wont. Have you even been on sisi and tried out the proposed changes? CCP doesnt hasnt and never will dictate what ships i fly no matter how hard they try to nerf stuff.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.17 22:36:00 -
[630]
Edited by: JVol on 17/10/2008 22:39:05
Originally by: Tyremis Edited by: Tyremis on 17/10/2008 20:52:22
replying to JVOL )
this coming from a guy who top 3 favorite ships are domi sleip and hurricane and the ishtar and vaga he flys he doesnt nano. Your no different than the caldari muppets screaming for change just because you wont. Have you even been on sisi and tried out the proposed changes? CCP doesnt hasnt and never will dictate what ships i fly no matter how hard they try to nerf stuff.
now i think that speed could be tempered certainly. But on sisi the changes are extreme. ships are being completely eliminated from being used in combat a whole race is being wiped out. the point im trying to make is the tools to stop nanos are there. Youd simply rather whine for sweeping game changes than use them. Which sadly will be the downfall of eve.
Im no differnet then caldari muppets? lol.. riiiight, you mean the guys with maxed out missile skills that cant do any damage to other cruisers JUST because they are exploiting the speed ccp mistakenly created? 0.0 damage!! LOL HOW MUCH DO I NEED TO SPEND ON IMPLANTS AND SHEILD/ARMOR TANKING TO GET 0.0 UFING DAMAGE? Thats right, YOU CANT! The single biggest reason I see in these lame ass pro nanno whines is " I maxed out this skill and that skill, and they are going to be a waste!' or the best one " I spent x billion on this and x billion on that, I SHOULD be able to take NO DAMAGE??? lol.. But the guy who had his missile skills maxed out while you were still playing WOW, Is useless now.. riiiihgt.
Last I read NOBODY was telling you what to fly, just telling you whats not going to be the SAME to fly. The unfair advantages will be gone, and you and I will be on a level playing field oncemore. (nano vs non nano). And for the most part your right, I choose NOT to fly nanos most of the time ( I HAVE flown them< just not how I prefere to hunt ), but that doent mean that STILL cant agree with the speed nerf. I do, and because guys who are one dimentional in pvp cant think of the ways in which any currently nanoed ship will be viable after the patch KEEp whining and whining ... Im supposed to think its TOO harsh? thats a joke..
As for dealing with them, I kill a few a week, but you know that if you looked at our KB, dontcha? I never said that they CANT be killed, thats not why this fix is commin down the pipe, its for more reasons than I care to list here atm, and we all know what they are.
As far as whining go's, Im not whining in the least, hell IM GETTIN MY WAY! lol Your the ones screaming that 'the sky is falling, THE SKY IS FALLING,' lol WHOLE RACES ARE BEING WIPED OUT! rofl.. w/e man, w/e. The reality is.. nano jockys are losing the iwin buttons and simply put, they dont want to.. tough, just like any roaming or static gang with out a hugin or a falcon atm,is a dead gang, right? tough? or is that just 'eve'?
Theres a few things in game I dont use, or dont use much, that IF nerfed into the stoneage would hurt the game I love... THIS however, ISNT one of them.
Eve was a great game Before nannos, and it WILL be even better without them... the downfall of eve, you sir.. are one funny mutha plucker
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.17 23:19:00 -
[631]
Edited by: Tyremis on 17/10/2008 23:21:52
great post cept for all caps. id love to understand what the other side is thinking on this. I dont know about you but the only ship i fly that gets 0.0 damage is a claw. My vaga never went fast enough to get 0.0 damage. I could speed tank and all that but my vaga never went past 7 or 8k. Heavy missiles would hit for 20 or 30. For example you think some newb sitting there in a 100M isk Raven with 10m skillpoints you should be able to shoot 30+millionsp 250M isk vagas out of the sky. Im sorry but thats not balance. There has to be a middle ground i just hope ccp can find it. If the changed implemented People will have to tank their vagas totally gimping any tackling (its a fing pvp ship ffs) Or if you do try to fit tackle youll have the worst tank ever (can u say deathtrap) Now i dont really fly vagas because theres so many rapiers around these days. but thats just one tiny example of how this nerf will turn the vaga into a super expensive uninsurable flying deathtrap.
Also you never answered my question have you tried out the changes on sisi or are you just talking out of your ass
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.17 23:51:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Tyremis Edited by: Tyremis on 17/10/2008 23:21:52
great post cept for all caps. id love to understand what the other side is thinking on this. I dont know about you but the only ship i fly that gets 0.0 damage is a claw. My vaga never went fast enough to get 0.0 damage. I could speed tank and all that but my vaga never went past 7 or 8k. Heavy missiles would hit for 20 or 30. For example you think some newb sitting there in a 100M isk Raven with 10m skillpoints you should be able to shoot 30+millionsp 250M isk vagas out of the sky. Im sorry but thats not balance. There has to be a middle ground i just hope ccp can find it. If the changed implemented People will have to tank their vagas totally gimping any tackling (its a fing pvp ship ffs) Or if you do try to fit tackle youll have the worst tank ever (can u say deathtrap) Now i dont really fly vagas because theres so many rapiers around these days. but thats just one tiny example of how this nerf will turn the vaga into a super expensive uninsurable flying deathtrap.
Also you never answered my question have you tried out the changes on sisi or are you just talking out of your ass
Me talking outta my ass STILL has more common sence to it than 95% of the pro nano guys arguments, and yes.. I have and... EVE will be just fine
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.18 00:16:00 -
[633]
so basically your saying you trained up max missile skills and cant hit things but are unwilling to use a neut? or 2. The tools are their you just refuse to see them. It will be "easier" this way huh ya i thought as much. pathetic
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.18 00:49:00 -
[634]
Edited by: JVol on 18/10/2008 00:56:04
Originally by: Tyremis so basically your saying you trained up max missile skills and cant hit things but are unwilling to use a neut? or 2. The tools are their you just refuse to see them. It will be "easier" this way huh ya i thought as much. pathetic
STFU dude, your making a fool of yourself.. I never said 'I' had maxed missile skills, 'I' never said 'I' had ANY problem killing nanos in a PVP BS.. ( cause I know your not THAT stupid to think a cruiser sized neut is ANY kind of usefull on a ship orbiting you at 22km and at 5k).. lol, tool... Again, nano fails HAVE to compare apples to oranges cause they KNOW most cruisers cant counter an nano with the 'nano counters'.. We all know that tho.. Dont we?
Just stop.. and pathetic is arguing about a change that HAS to happen ( and IS happening ) and not accepting it like a man.. Your nano tears make ma happy, keep em comming
Im not even caldari! lol.. That dosent mean I dont know whats what tho.. You wanna see my skills hit up evemon, they are posted. Being that I fly every race, every combat ship Bs and under with this char, I think I know a thing or two about what works and whats broken.
eve was fine before nanos and it will be even better when they are gone...
And btw.. you fit RIGHT smack dab into the 'whiner' catagory i was talking about in my other posts.. Pator Tech School from 2006.07.17 07:49 to 2006.07.23 02:07.. rofl.. you joined the game right in the begining of tha nano phase, im sure its all you know, and I wont hold it aginst you..
the words ill leave you with.... crosstrain , crosstrain crosstrain
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.18 01:22:00 -
[635]
oh i love makin a fool of myself but i dont think im really doin that now. ok lets take your tactical situation you pointed out vaga versus t1 cruiser oh noes i cant do anything im pointed and i cant neut, (ecm drones moron) there is no situation in eve you cant get away from or make an attempt to. Granted often the guy your fighting will have the right setup and youll have the wrong one to counter it. That will happen with or without nanos. I have not heard one piece of evidence youve said that would convince me that nanos are indestructable. I lose them all the time. Also when i first started i had no where near the sp to fly a nano even tho they were around. But because of that i LEARED TO ADAPT, how to fit my ships to counter them. Yeh i died sometimes and more often than not lived fighting against nano gangs. I never left dock in a BS without a neut had ecm drones drone nav links. I fly gallente as well as minmitar of course with your epic wisdom youll note that with the web nerf gallente blaster boats are now lol. same with Ac temptest hurricane and almost any close range ship. Im already training amarr long before this nerf came btw and ill still continue to kill all the caldari whiners long after this nerf. Because i was able to adapt when i first started this game and will continue to do so. There is a difference between whining and pointing out legitimate problems that will arise from this. Keep it constructive ... if you can.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.18 01:38:00 -
[636]
Originally by: Tyremis oh i love makin a fool of myself but i dont think im really doin that now. ok lets take your tactical situation you pointed out vaga versus t1 cruiser oh noes i cant do anything im pointed and i cant neut, (ecm drones moron) there is no situation in eve you cant get away from or make an attempt to. Granted often the guy your fighting will have the right setup and youll have the wrong one to counter it. That will happen with or without nanos. I have not heard one piece of evidence youve said that would convince me that nanos are indestructable. I lose them all the time. Also when i first started i had no where near the sp to fly a nano even tho they were around. But because of that i LEARED TO ADAPT, how to fit my ships to counter them. Yeh i died sometimes and more often than not lived fighting against nano gangs. I never left dock in a BS without a neut had ecm drones drone nav links. I fly gallente as well as minmitar of course with your epic wisdom youll note that with the web nerf gallente blaster boats are now lol. same with Ac temptest hurricane and almost any close range ship. Im already training amarr long before this nerf came btw and ill still continue to kill all the caldari whiners long after this nerf. Because i was able to adapt when i first started this game and will continue to do so. There is a difference between whining and pointing out legitimate problems that will arise from this. Keep it constructive ... if you can.
Did you read ANy of my posts? Before I slam you and show you my blackbelt in forum kung- fu.. ill give you a chance to go back and re read them, then you can pinpoint the 4 OR 5 things you seem to think I said, but didnt at all.. re read, its all even better when you pay attention.
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.18 01:52:00 -
[637]
"LOL HOW MUCH DO I NEED TO SPEND ON IMPLANTS AND SHEILD/ARMOR TANKING TO GET 0.0 UFING DAMAGE? Thats right, YOU CANT! The single biggest reason I see in these lame ass pro nanno whines is " I maxed out this skill and that skill, and they are going to be a waste!' or the best one " I spent x billion on this and x billion on that, I SHOULD be able to take NO DAMAGE??? lol.. But the guy who had his missile skills maxed out while you were still playing WOW, Is useless now.. riiiihgt."
grabbed this from one of your earlier horrible posts. this is the only part of your drivel that i found remotely relevant. No i dont think its fair that a maxed out missile player cant hit a vaga worth a damn. Thats not kewl. Totally agreeing with you on this, but i dont think he should be able to hit that vaga for 1k damage a volley either if you think thats fair youve totally lost prepective, and theres no point in talking to you further. So just answer me this you think thats fair or not? also go out on sisi and test further i think you really need a better picture of whats happening here.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:21:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Tyremis Edited by: Tyremis on 18/10/2008 02:02:03
"LOL HOW MUCH DO I NEED TO SPEND ON IMPLANTS AND SHEILD/ARMOR TANKING TO GET 0.0 UFING DAMAGE? Thats right, YOU CANT! The single biggest reason I see in these lame ass pro nanno whines is " I maxed out this skill and that skill, and they are going to be a waste!' or the best one " I spent x billion on this and x billion on that, I SHOULD be able to take NO DAMAGE??? lol.. But the guy who had his missile skills maxed out while you were still playing WOW, Is useless now.. riiiihgt."
grabbed this from one of your earlier horrible posts. this is the only part of your drivel that i found remotely relevant. No i dont think its fair that a maxed out missile player cant hit a vaga worth a damn. Thats not kewl. Totally agreeing with you on this, but after nerf it will be like this Raven fires voley of cruise vaga mwds sig radius increases exponentially only it goes slow as **** raven smokes vaga for 1k or more damage a volley. if you think thats fair youve totally lost prepective, and theres no point in talking to you further. I also agree that the game was still fun before nanos. But without any form of nanos this will become even more blob online than it already is and the servers cant handle it. So just answer me this you think thats fair or not? also go out on sisi and test further i think you really need a better picture of whats happening here.
LOl.. I said I kill a few a week, generally at least one a day, I know they arent 'invincable'. Doesnt mean they arent broken, they are.. Frankly I dont really care a bout the 'vaga' you seem to be all over, but it will be as good as it was back in 04/05 before the nano crap. imo. even better cause we didnt have rigs then.
Lag, ccp has made great strides fixing that, blobs n bubbles were as much a problem now as they were then, nothing new. been to jita lately? They have made the lag there almost non existant, least on my connection. The servers are fine..
And ive been to the test servers, its much like it was a few years ago, only more ship diversity, there's rigs now and oh yea.. a whole GAGGLE of ufcking crybabys to kill!!! yaaarrr
Calm down a little, take your rittalyn and think... What char are you going to make in WOW when the changes come down on ya?? rofl
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:33:00 -
[639]
this game will become much more like WoW than the one ill be going to. Make sure you get a cape and wizard hat for ambulation will ya, then send me a pic. If these changes come down ill be moving over to JGE (jump gate evolution) its a little arcade for my liking but their is dog fights and thats what im all about not 300BS sitting 130k away from each other hitting f1-f8 hoping to god they dont get primaried or can warp away in the lagfest.
as i was saying a little arcade looking for my liking but it promotes what i like about internet spaceship pew pew, no you cannot have my stuff some nifty beta footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glAt2U8QMco
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:42:00 -
[640]
Edited by: JVol on 18/10/2008 02:45:49 Edited by: JVol on 18/10/2008 02:44:35
Originally by: Tyremis Edited by: Tyremis on 18/10/2008 02:39:09 this game will become much more like WoW than the one ill be going to. Make sure you get a cape and wizard hat for ambulation will ya, then send me a pic. I was using the vaga as an example as its the most used nano ship dont hurt yourself thinkin about that too much. If these changes come down ill be moving over to JGE (jump gate evolution) their is dog fights and thats what im all about not 300BS sitting 130k away from each other hitting f1-f8 hoping to god they dont get primaried or can warp away in the lagfest.
it promotes what i like about internet spaceship pew pew, no you cannot have my stuff some nifty beta footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glAt2U8QMco
I could give a ratts ass about ambulation, biggest waste of resources ive ever heard about. Take the team thats working on that and re focus them on making new ships, new mods and well... ANYTHING else..imo. Wish I had TIME for any new games, lol...
Yea I play everyday dude.. go to jita, buty a ship and fit it, i did it the other day, was just like doing it in anyother system, no joke.... and their were almost 600 people in sys if i remember correctly. Just got done with a 30 man fight 10 minuttes ago as well,( in between forum fighting) drones everywhere, but not lag at all, least not for our side..
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Tyremis
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:04:00 -
[641]
the jita node is epic boosted compared to any 0.0 node. Its simply on better hardware. Now get yourself a faction warfare fight goin on outside jita 4-4 then try to fit your ship. Ive been in jita and it took me literally 2 hrs to buy and fit the modules and leave system. I have the fastest cable internet my provider sells as well. Im glad 30 on 30 still works and i hope that will still be the case as newbs pile onto the servers. In 0.0 its a little bigger scale than that for the most part.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 08:21:00 -
[642]
Originally by: JVol "WWWAAAA NANO TOO HARD".....I DON'T WANNA HAVE TO TACKLE TO KILL STUFF",......"I WANT PVP TO BE LIKE RATTING"......" BLOB AND f1-f8 IS ALL IM GOOD FOR" WWWAAAAA......NERF NERF.
Fixed.
Your such a loser dude, you have no idea about skilled pvp or nano so do everybody including yourself a favor and STFU. I personally am sick of seeing your crap posted on here along with your pathetically weak arguments.
PPL are on here talking about a game we enjoy playing and how to improve it without screwing up whole classes of ships, and all you can think of and go on about is how much you think your skilless existence is gonna improve.
Here is the news buddy its not, your always gonna suck at eve because you blame the game and the stuff in it instead of improving yourself and your pvp abilities. NANO may go it may not it may change or be destroyed but the pvpers will always be considerably better than you and always find ways to kick your pathetic nerfit asses.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 09:25:00 -
[643]
Edited by: ErrhuhBlaman on 18/10/2008 09:35:59 I don't understand all of the arguements. As a minmatar player i can't wait till the new changes, it will put life into afterburners and AC's for which is the minmatar way. i'm already thinking of fits. Not just ac's though, but all close/med range turret is going to be more useful.
I think if some people just looked at ccp decision more like them closely defining the speeds for ship types and gameplay other then nerfs here and there then i think more acceptance to the game changes would be seen.
And regarding the changes and pvp. I am hearing alot from the other side "Start learning to adapt to speed related pvp. I did and i spend X billion isk on this ship to prove it. And i even lost one!!!!". if adaptability is in question and you have such high supply of it, just go with the flow. I mean being such a great player(s) as you are why be the lesser by fighting it and just step up to the new battleground and show them your adaptability and how significantly Superior you are.
I also don't think this will fix all of the problems with ship types, speed, tracking, and damage but I think this is a very positive step in the right direction.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 09:39:00 -
[644]
Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 09:45:38
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman I don't understand all of the arguements. As a minmatar player i can't wait till the new changes, it will put life into afterburners and AC's for which is the minmatar way. i'm already thinking of fits . Not just ac's though, but blasters are going to be more useful.
1 v 1 combat may be more interesting with these changes but unfortunately 1 v 1 combat is uber rare in eve. This nerf reduces small ship in gang combat to utter worthlessness and gang combat is the norm and most common form in eve. CCP should be promoting the kind of skill sets and fittings that promote team work and skill but for some reason they are going the opposite way by removing the need to tackle to kill in favor of dps spams.
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman it will put life into afterburners
No bud its taking usefulness away from MWD's afterburners will still suck in anything other than ultra specific 1 v 1 fights.
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman I also don't think this will fix all of the problems with ship types, speed, tracking, and damage but i think this is a very positive step in the right direction.
There's no problem with tracking and damage bud the problem is ratters and mission runners wanting pvp to be like PVE where players sit still fore them like the rats do. It seems to me that the developers pushing this patch forwards are ex-carebears trying to make pvp more like the crappy kind of f1-f8 pve they are used to.
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
And regarding the changes and pvp. I am hearing alot from the other side "Start learning to adapt to speed related pvp. I did and i spend X billion isk on this ship to prove it. And i even lost one!!!!".
ErrhuhBlaman
kills 20 losses 20
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-ErrhuhBlaman-kills.html
Now maybe your posting on a alt like me cos your main is banned but if not i suggest you do a little more pvp before you decide that its broken.....
PS: All i see are tanked muninns in your T2 losses?, can i see your X billion isk nano fit pls?.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 15:35:00 -
[645]
Edited by: ErrhuhBlaman on 18/10/2008 15:45:17
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
And regarding the changes and pvp. I am hearing alot from the other side "Start learning to adapt to speed related pvp. I did and i spend X billion isk on this ship to prove it. And i even lost one!!!!".
ErrhuhBlaman
kills 20 losses 20
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-ErrhuhBlaman-kills.html
Now maybe your posting on a alt like me cos your main is banned but if not i suggest you do a little more pvp before you decide that its broken.....
PS: All i see are tanked muninns in your T2 losses?, can i see your X billion isk nano fit pls?.
Maybe you missed the quotes saying that it's what the nano***s are saying?
And I also like how you completely ignored "I think if some people just looked at ccp decision more like them closely defining the speeds for ship types and gameplay other then nerfs here and there then i think more acceptance to the game changes would be seen."
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.18 17:24:00 -
[646]
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman Edited by: ErrhuhBlaman on 18/10/2008 09:35:59 I don't understand all of the arguements. As a minmatar player i can't wait till the new changes, it will put life into afterburners and AC's for which is the minmatar way. i'm already thinking of fits. Not just ac's though, but all close/med range turret is going to be more useful.
I think if some people just looked at ccp decision more like them closely defining the speeds for ship types and gameplay other then nerfs here and there then i think more acceptance to the game changes would be seen.
And regarding the changes and pvp. I am hearing alot from the other side "Start learning to adapt to speed related pvp. I did and i spend X billion isk on this ship to prove it. And i even lost one!!!!". if adaptability is in question and you have such high supply of it, just go with the flow. I mean being such a great player(s) as you are why be the lesser by fighting it and just step up to the new battleground and show them your adaptability and how significantly Superior you are.
I also don't think this will fix all of the problems with ship types, speed, tracking, and damage but I think this is a very positive step in the right direction.
O/ signed ( now wait for them to "quote" you and write in their own buuullshit to make themselves appear to have a point )
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.18 17:58:00 -
[647]
Originally by: JVol
O/ signed ( now wait for them to "quote" you and write in their own buuullshit to make themselves appear to have a point ) LIKE I JUST DID.....
fixed.
I still love the fact that the pro nerfits are:
" i think it will be ok"....
And the anti nerf are:
"As we speak on the test server"
Be honest most nerfits do not care how bad pvp becomes cos they will always suck at it....
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.18 18:02:00 -
[648]
EVE was a great game BEFORE nanos and it will STILL be after they are gone...
And for those of you who seem to know how bad I suck at pvp.. roll on out to 9-4 and get your loot, its in my ship..
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Cutesmile
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.18 19:23:00 -
[649]
Edited by: Cutesmile on 18/10/2008 19:25:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxqrFEjDswE
Speed nerf LOL video but true. Speed nerf + missile boost = Caldari online coming
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Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.18 19:29:00 -
[650]
Originally by: JVol EVE was a great game BEFORE nanos and it will STILL be after they are gone...
And for those of you who seem to know how bad I suck at pvp.. roll on out to 9-4 and get your loot, its in my ship..
Its quite simple really bud, those that support the way this nerf is being done and how it effects and screws up so many ships either know nothing about pvp or are just happy that blobs of missile spamming ratting ships are gonna be the only things really worth flying.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 19:33:00 -
[651]
It's kinda funny how most of the people on the Battle Clinic forums support the adjusted speeds
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 19:44:00 -
[652]
Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:43:58
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman It's kinda funny how most of the people on the Battle Clinic forums support the adjusted speeds
Against the nerf = 69 pages of votes
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371&page=69
For the nerf = 32 pages of votes
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369&page=32
Id be interested to see you poll though.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 19:47:00 -
[653]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:43:58
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman It's kinda funny how most of the people on the Battle Clinic forums support the adjusted speeds
Against the nerf = 69 pages of votes
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371&page=69
For the nerf = 32 pages of votes
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369&page=32
Id be interested to see you poll though.
i was just skimming and i seemed to miss this page. thanks for the links
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 19:48:00 -
[654]
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:43:58
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman It's kinda funny how most of the people on the Battle Clinic forums support the adjusted speeds
Against the nerf = 69 pages of votes
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832371&page=69
For the nerf = 32 pages of votes
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=832369&page=32
Id be interested to see you poll though.
i was just skimming and i seemed to miss this page. thanks for the links
ohh pfft, i said the battle clinic forums. shhesh
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 19:51:00 -
[655]
Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:51:42
wazap only interested in stuff that supports your game preferences instead of a honest vote?.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 20:00:00 -
[656]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:51:42
wazap only interested in stuff that supports your game preferences instead of a honest vote?.
I highly doubt an "honest vote" is going to sway the collective minds that is ccp. and just so you know, i actually like flying hacs that go upwards 4-5km so don't judge my decisions off of my play style that you don't know.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 20:12:00 -
[657]
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:51:42
wazap only interested in stuff that supports your game preferences instead of a honest vote?.
I highly doubt an "honest vote" is going to sway the collective minds that is ccp. and just so you know, i actually like flying hacs that go upwards 4-5km so don't judge my decisions off of my play style that you don't know.
You must do cos on your beloved battleclinic it says you have never lost one......oh but look it says you have never killed anything in one either, you seem to like tanked munnins and ruptures though.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 20:20:00 -
[658]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 19:51:42
honest vote crap.
response.
You must do cos on your beloved battleclinic it says you have never lost one......oh but look it says you have never killed anything in one either, you seem to like tanked munnins and ruptures though.
oie, isn't it one of the basic rules of eve don't fly what you can't afford to lose? well in all honestly i really can't afford to a kittyed out nano ship. but trust me if i had the isk to spend i would do it in a heartbeat. but enough about me. how are you doing today?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 20:28:00 -
[659]
Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 20:29:31
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman I actually like flying hacs that go upwards 4-5km so don't judge my decisions off of my play style that you don't know.
Originally by: lecrotta You must do cos on your beloved battleclinic it says you have never lost one......oh but look it says you have never killed anything in one either, you seem to like tanked munnins and ruptures though.
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman oie, isn't it one of the basic rules of eve don't fly what you can't afford to lose? well in all honestly i really can't afford to a kittyed out nano ship. but trust me if i had the isk to spend i would do it in a heartbeat. but enough about me. how are you doing today?
Ok so you love to and do fly 4-5kms hacs but you also cannot afford them and do not fly them...one of us is very confused....oh a 4-5kms hac costs around the same as a tanked munnin btw.
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 20:32:00 -
[660]
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman oie, isn't it one of the basic rules of eve don't fly what you can't afford to lose? well in all honestly i really can't afford to a kittyed out nano ship. but trust me if i had the isk to spend i would do it in a heartbeat. but enough about me. how are you doing today?
Ok so you love to and do fly 4-5kms hacs but you also cannot afford them and do not fly them...one of us is very confused....oh a 4-5kms hac costs around the same as a tanked munnin btw.
yep and i can't afford to fly it. but seeing that you don't fly anything *cough cough alt* that just leaves me to wonder where this wellspring of knowledge and experience comes from. ... maybe trolling the forum?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 20:37:00 -
[661]
Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 20:43:44
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman oie, isn't it one of the basic rules of eve don't fly what you can't afford to lose? well in all honestly i really can't afford to a kittyed out nano ship. but trust me if i had the isk to spend i would do it in a heartbeat. but enough about me. how are you doing today?
Ok so you love to and do fly 4-5kms hacs but you also cannot afford them and do not fly them...one of us is very confused....oh a 4-5kms hac costs around the same as a tanked munnin btw.
yep and i can't afford to fly it. but seeing that you don't fly anything *cough cough alt* that just leaves me to wonder where this wellspring of knowledge and experience comes from. ... maybe trolling the forum?
My apologies my main gets banned from the forum so often i kinda take posting with alts as a way of eve life (doing a 144 day stretch atm...no bail).
sophisticatedlimabean is one of my mains.
BC is a bit out of date on me atm though,.. i aint in RA anymore although the 20 or so active days i was with them was fun...500 kills for 1 loss (my fault) and led sone very successful gangs (shameless epeen stroke sori)
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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ErrhuhBlaman
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Posted - 2008.10.18 21:05:00 -
[662]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 20:49:22
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman oie, isn't it one of the basic rules of eve don't fly what you can't afford to lose? well in all honestly i really can't afford to a kittyed out nano ship. but trust me if i had the isk to spend i would do it in a heartbeat. but enough about me. how are you doing today?
Ok so you love to and do fly 4-5kms hacs but you also cannot afford them and do not fly them...one of us is very confused....oh a 4-5kms hac costs around the same as a tanked munnin btw.
yep and i can't afford to fly it. but seeing that you don't fly anything *cough cough alt* that just leaves me to wonder where this wellspring of knowledge and experience comes from. ... maybe trolling the forum?
My apologies my main gets banned from the forum so often i kinda take posting with alts as a way of eve life (doing a 144 day stretch atm...no bail).
sophisticatedlimabean is one of my mains.
BC is a bit out of date on me atm though,.. i aint in RA anymore although the 20 or so active days i was with them was fun...500 kills (shameless epeen stroke sori) for 1 loss (my stupid, brainless, noob, moronic, tarded, pathetic, amateur, knobend fault) and led sone very successful gangs.
just seeing that makes me wish i had more time to dedicate to this game. and like i mentions a few posts back about turrets,i strongly believe that AC and arty are garbage on battleships. i dislike debates and saying that i've spoke my mind, cast my vote and i'm stepping back to see what ccp decides from here on.
but as this dev once said
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.18 21:17:00 -
[663]
Edited by: lecrotta on 18/10/2008 21:19:56
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
just seeing that makes me wish i had more time to dedicate to this game.
You would just get good at pvp, find ways of killing most setups with good buddies and end up getting banned from the forums a lot for swearing at ppl who are unwilling to learn and think that just cos they cannot kill it that it must be broken and need nerfing.
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman and like i mentions a few posts back about turrets,i strongly believe that AC and arty are garbage on battleships.
Every ship has its place dude, arties may suck at hitting smaller ships, but for a flyby warpin at long range to alpha kill other BS then warp out they may be the best in the game if this stupid nerf goes through. Oh and your not alone on the AC sucking cos blasters blow goats after this nerf as well.
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman but as this dev once said
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
Did, done and it sucks, but hey i worked sniper gangs for a loooong time (the last time they were "overpowered") and this nerf (if it goes through) just made them the uber fit of eve and if used correctly in a good team they are harder to catch than nano...
SAVE NANO!!!!!!....only needing f1-f8 to kill is not a skilled style of combat.
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Orwell Lok'errt
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Posted - 2008.10.18 23:17:00 -
[664]
so they still think that 2bil snakes are broken and so they need to nerf t2 overdrives and nanofibers? that nano is overpowered and so they need to nerf the main anti-nano module - the web? hey looking at this they still want to nerf, maim and generally f*ck up half the freaking game. good going guys. never let the gamers' opinion stand in the way of progressive incompetence.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.18 23:26:00 -
[665]
Edited by: Murina on 18/10/2008 23:28:53
Originally by: Orwell Lok'errt so they still think that 2bil snakes are broken and so they need to nerf t2 overdrives and nanofibers? that nano is overpowered and so they need to nerf the main anti-nano module - the web? hey looking at this they still want to nerf, maim and generally f*ck up half the freaking game. good going guys. never let the gamers' opinion stand in the way of progressive incompetence.
Im sorry but the influx of cash from new players who's only experience with combat is ratting are getting upset cos trained pvpers do not sit still like brainless rats and allow themselves to be destroyed. This is why we are reducing pvp to something similar to the static slug fest ratting that these muppets are familiar with in the hope they will not leave and take their monthly subscription away.
CCP
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Deja Thoris
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.10.19 00:24:00 -
[666]
The proposed changes suck. Welcome to drakes / blobs online. It's a shame a lot of the talent has left CCP to be replaced by eejit devs who pander to the whines of people who want pvp to be more like pve.
I hope you don't kill the game CCP, it seems Iceland needs the revenue and lets face it, your pve is about as thrilling as humping a cheese grater.
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.19 18:50:00 -
[667]
Edited by: Semkhet on 19/10/2008 18:50:59
Originally by: JVol Just stop.. and pathetic is arguing about a change that HAS to happen ( and IS happening ) and not accepting it like a man.. Your nano tears make ma happy, keep em comming
Something people of your mindset will never understand is that in EvE's PvP, either you get it, either you don't. Those who get it do not object to CCP's speednerf because short of nanos they can't fight. Why the hell do you think that so many 60 mil sp players take nanos instead of caps ?
B E C A U S E I T ' S F U N, C A P I S C I ?
Above all, a game should be about fun. I would be delighted that you explain us where is the charm to sit on a gate fighting 20 vs 3, frantically spamming F1-F8 to get on the killmails of a few poor sods who didn't have the shadow of a chance in front of a blob where individual skills & tactical flair are the last things to play a role whatsoever.
Ultima Blob Online is where this patch is going to lead us all, provided you understand the GLOBAL implications of nerfing speed in the way CCP has designed the changes.
But whatever, you'll always get your ass kicked one way or another by players who know how to work as a well oiled team and maximize effectiveness given the mechanics at hand.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.20 01:41:00 -
[668]
Originally by: JVol
OMFG!! Your not only WRONG your still not accepting the FACT that speed tanking is broke, (as the makers OF THE DAMN GAME HAVE SAID THEMSELVES!!)
Quit trolling around. The only thing they said was broken was the physics engine at speeds higher than 8km/s. If that's the issue they could just cap all speed to 8km/s as an ultimate maximum value. But no they decided to outright destroy close ranged combat and variation as they're making fragile ships unplayable. Instead of spewing nonsense here go try the changes on sisi. Unless you're only playing in sniper blob fleets...
Quote:
What your refering to wasnt speed "tanking" multiple mdws wouldnt be sustained to provide any kind of a 'tank' you dumbazz.. It was primaraly used on ravens to run at a target from long range and alpha them with several vollys of torps... geezz.. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO 'speed tanking'.. try again.. lol, and btw.. NANOS are gone man, soon.. all this flailing you nano jockeys are doing trying to make arguments for how 'balenced' they are is just plain funny.. keep it up
Wrong. Domis could be sustainable at 10km speed and I've done it personally. And there were not only domis but myrmidons and other ships as well. Secondly I'm not a nano jockey. I fly all gallente ships up to the Moros and I have at least one of them in stock always. The only ships that I fly on nano setups are Ishtar, Inties, Recons and Cov ops. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T SURVIVE MORE THAN A FEW SECONDS OTHERWISE. Also blasters and ACs are far more gravely affected by this nerf than nanos. Yet all you seem to do is spin nano-hate without actually testing anything or have any real argument. Why is it that all pro-nerf people on this forum have no valid arguments, ideas or suggestions? Why all you do is just posting random hate? *Food for thought*
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.20 01:55:00 -
[669]
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
just seeing that makes me wish i had more time to dedicate to this game. and like i mentions a few posts back about turrets,i strongly believe that AC and arty are garbage on battleships. i dislike debates and saying that i've spoke my mind, cast my vote and i'm stepping back to see what ccp decides from here on.
You seem to believe that this nerf will benefit ACs? Let me inform you that this nerf actually kills ACs and Blasters, actually it kills all kinds of close ranged combat. How are you going to reach your 5km optimal in a slow moving bucket battleship when your MWD is disabled? You'll never reach it. You'll be dead before even hitting falloff range. You said you're inexperienced with PvP but do sit a bit and ponder the situation. Your enemy is going to have tacklers with scramblers. Always. And your close range ship will be the first to be MWD-disabled (with 2 points on you as well). You won't move an inch until you blow up from sniper/drone damage...
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.21 00:23:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul
Originally by: JVol
OMFG!! Your not only WRONG your still not accepting the FACT that speed tanking is broke, (as the makers OF THE DAMN GAME HAVE SAID THEMSELVES!!)
Quit trolling around. The only thing they said was broken was the physics engine at speeds higher than 8km/s. If that's the issue they could just cap all speed to 8km/s as an ultimate maximum value. But no they decided to outright destroy close ranged combat and variation as they're making fragile ships unplayable. Instead of spewing nonsense here go try the changes on sisi. Unless you're only playing in sniper blob fleets...
Quote:
What your refering to wasnt speed "tanking" multiple mdws wouldnt be sustained to provide any kind of a 'tank' you dumbazz.. It was primaraly used on ravens to run at a target from long range and alpha them with several vollys of torps... geezz.. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO 'speed tanking'.. try again.. lol, and btw.. NANOS are gone man, soon.. all this flailing you nano jockeys are doing trying to make arguments for how 'balenced' they are is just plain funny.. keep it up
Wrong. Domis could be sustainable at 10km speed and I've done it personally. And there were not only domis but myrmidons and other ships as well. Secondly I'm not a nano jockey. I fly all gallente ships up to the Moros and I have at least one of them in stock always. The only ships that I fly on nano setups are Ishtar, Inties, Recons and Cov ops. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T SURVIVE MORE THAN A FEW SECONDS OTHERWISE. Also blasters and ACs are far more gravely affected by this nerf than nanos. Yet all you seem to do is spin nano-hate without actually testing anything or have any real argument. Why is it that all pro-nerf people on this forum have no valid arguments, ideas or suggestions? Why all you do is just posting random hate? *Food for thought*
Do you even READ the posts you get all agro about? mrymadons were NOT EVEN in game back when you could fit multiple MWD's on a ship.. Now go re read his post, then my post then, you should probley just be quiet.... but, we'll see...
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CoLe Blackblood
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.10.21 14:31:00 -
[671]
Myrmidons were in when the first nanonerf hit...that was when we were seeing 10-14kms phoons and domis.
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.21 15:54:00 -
[672]
Originally by: CoLe Blackblood Myrmidons were in when the first nanonerf hit...that was when we were seeing 10-14kms phoons and domis.
Right!
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 15:57:00 -
[673]
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul
Originally by: JVol
OMFG!! Your not only WRONG your still not accepting the FACT that speed tanking is broke, (as the makers OF THE DAMN GAME HAVE SAID THEMSELVES!!)
Quit trolling around. The only thing they said was broken was the physics engine at speeds higher than 8km/s. If that's the issue they could just cap all speed to 8km/s as an ultimate maximum value. But no they decided to outright destroy close ranged combat and variation as they're making fragile ships unplayable. Instead of spewing nonsense here go try the changes on sisi. Unless you're only playing in sniper blob fleets...
Quote:
What your refering to wasnt speed "tanking" multiple mdws wouldnt be sustained to provide any kind of a 'tank' you dumbazz.. It was primaraly used on ravens to run at a target from long range and alpha them with several vollys of torps... geezz.. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO 'speed tanking'.. try again.. lol, and btw.. NANOS are gone man, soon.. all this flailing you nano jockeys are doing trying to make arguments for how 'balenced' they are is just plain funny.. keep it up
Wrong. Domis could be sustainable at 10km speed and I've done it personally. And there were not only domis but myrmidons and other ships as well. Secondly I'm not a nano jockey. I fly all gallente ships up to the Moros and I have at least one of them in stock always. The only ships that I fly on nano setups are Ishtar, Inties, Recons and Cov ops. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T SURVIVE MORE THAN A FEW SECONDS OTHERWISE. Also blasters and ACs are far more gravely affected by this nerf than nanos. Yet all you seem to do is spin nano-hate without actually testing anything or have any real argument. Why is it that all pro-nerf people on this forum have no valid arguments, ideas or suggestions? Why all you do is just posting random hate? *Food for thought*
Do you even READ the posts you get all agro about? mrymadons were NOT EVEN in game back when you could fit multiple MWD's on a ship.. Now go re read his post, then my post then, you should probley just be quiet.... but, we'll see...
See above 2 posts. And I did read his post and yours. His has real arguments, yours doesn't. His is written in a constructive way, presenting facts. Yours is just badmouthing and random nonsense.
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muffminer
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 01:18:00 -
[674]
To those saying that "Hacs were useful before nano"....hacs were useful w/ a tank setup before tier 2 BC's came into the game that outtank, outdps - outright outperform these ships in every way but omgoat..speed. Yet the tier 2 bc's are less expensive and easier to train for by any means.
But this is 'Balance" right...less training and less isk = more powerful than a ship it takes around 2 months to even be able to sit in much less the time it takes to fit it out properly and fly effectively.
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major lulz11
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 15:04:00 -
[675]
Edited by: major lulz11 on 24/10/2008 15:04:21 why ccp is reducing pvp to wet noodles is a tough nut to crack.
I cant see myself playing the game anymore when they mess with such fundamental modules like this.
**** just remove istabs and nano's so the rest of us can get on with eve.
mutilating the webbers is ridiculous. |
Nora Baiden
|
Posted - 2008.10.27 01:00:00 -
[676]
Edited by: Nora Baiden on 27/10/2008 01:13:40
Originally by: Melegaunt Tanthul
Originally by: ErrhuhBlaman
just seeing that makes me wish i had more time to dedicate to this game. and like i mentions a few posts back about turrets,i strongly believe that AC and arty are garbage on battleships. i dislike debates and saying that i've spoke my mind, cast my vote and i'm stepping back to see what ccp decides from here on.
You seem to believe that this nerf will benefit ACs? Let me inform you that this nerf actually kills ACs and Blasters, actually it kills all kinds of close ranged combat. How are you going to reach your 5km optimal in a slow moving bucket battleship when your MWD is disabled? You'll never reach it. You'll be dead before even hitting falloff range. You said you're inexperienced with PvP but do sit a bit and ponder the situation. Your enemy is going to have tacklers with scramblers. Always. And your close range ship will be the first to be MWD-disabled (with 2 points on you as well). You won't move an inch until you blow up from sniper/drone damage...
No you dont get it.
you wouldnt reach anything if webed in the current state either.
Also the new webs give ceptors a chance at close range instead of getting insta gibbed because most Battle ships wont use web and short range scram, they would only have a long range scram and a web at most(unless the guy only want to fight ceptors in his battleship =0).
All the new points do is giving ships with few slots but fast speed a way to be viable because they wont need the web! and it gives you a chance to not be doomed as soon that raier hits you.
And the nano nerf? im all for it, that **** was redicilous, and invalidated 99% of the different war mechanics in eve.
The deal breaker for me would be if non rigged ceptors cant outrun warriors2
Q1 what ships use web in a gang other than a rapier and ceptors? Q2 Do you ever fly a gang without these ships? Q3(trick question) if you answer yes on Q2, have you actually killed people with that gang? noobs do not count.
you will stil hit webbed **** with yours after the change since everything flies slower. I really cant see the problem with web change unless you are sitting in your rapier and used to point click, kill anything within range.
yes i fly other ships but the rest of the changes would be good for the ships and playstyle.
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Nora Baiden
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:34:00 -
[677]
Edited by: Nora Baiden on 27/10/2008 01:34:34
Originally by: muffminer To those saying that "Hacs were useful before nano"....hacs were useful w/ a tank setup before tier 2 BC's came into the game that outtank, outdps - outright outperform these ships in every way but omgoat..speed. Yet the tier 2 bc's are less expensive and easier to train for by any means.
But this is 'Balance" right...less training and less isk = more powerful than a ship it takes around 2 months to even be able to sit in much less the time it takes to fit it out properly and fly effectively.
Wrong.
They might be good against hacs but.. Battle ships obliterates Battle Cruisers, atleast I do, but they can not hit hacs verry well if at all even at slower speed, and I can assure you i will have no problem to stay out of close range of a battle ships with my hac post nano, Its called size and gun tracking. |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.27 08:39:00 -
[678]
Originally by: Nora Baiden
Q1 what ships use web in a gang other than a rapier and ceptors?
It depends on the gang as CCP makes task specific ships so not using them would be stupid, but in most situations most ships in your gang having a web fitted is a big benefit.
Originally by: Nora Baiden Q2 Do you ever fly a gang without these ships?
Yup RR BS, sniper, capital all these forms of gang do not rely heavily on ceptors or rapiers.
Originally by: Nora Baiden Q3(trick question) if you answer yes on Q2, have you actually killed people that you wont after the web nerf with that gang? (noobs do not count)
Of course, nano hac and recon gangs maybe the most skilled and fun form of pvp in eve but its not the only one and at a lot of things rather useless so a good varied education in most if not all forms of pvp is a good idea.
Originally by: Nora Baiden yes i fly other ships but the rest of the changes would be good for pretty much all ships unless your skill relies on running godmode at 9km/s.
9kms is not god mode unless you can do it in a titan, your lack of piloting skills and team work are the issue not speed. |
Itukki
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Posted - 2008.10.27 10:51:00 -
[679]
Has anybody found a recording of the devblog?
***insert link here**** ;)
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.27 12:43:00 -
[680]
Originally by: Itukki Has anybody found a recording of the devblog?
***insert link here**** ;)
Its a few pages back. |
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Melegaunt Tanthul
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.11.01 09:25:00 -
[681]
Originally by: Nora Baiden Edited by: Nora Baiden on 27/10/2008 01:20:50 No you dont get it.
you wouldnt reach anything if webed in the current state either.
As I fly blasterthrons/deimos/blasterax all the time I disagree. All close range ships fit a webber and with MWD you can reach targets. But like I said it's already difficult enough to fly close range ships. This nerf makes it next to impossible.
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Also the new webs give ceptors a chance at close range instead of getting insta gibbed because most Battle ships wont use web and short range scram, they would only have a long range scram and a web at most(unless the guy only want to fight ceptors in his battleship =0).
Wrong. Test it on Sisi and you'll see that now ceptors get instapop'd. Also wrong is that most BS don't use web. Sniper BS don't use web, on close range BS web is as essential as MWD and cap injector.
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All the new points do is giving ships with few slots but fast speed a way to be viable because they wont need the web! and it gives you a chance to not be doomed as soon that raier hits you.
No all it does is make those fragile untankable "fast ships" getting instapop'd no matter what.
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And the nano nerf? im all for it, that **** was redicilous, and invalidated 99% of the different war mechanics in eve.
This is a generalization. There's no valid argument for what you're saying here.
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Q1 what ships use web in a gang other than a rapier and ceptors?
All close range ships do, regardless of size. And actually most ceptors use just points and leave the webbing to web bonus ships and close ranged ones. Why? Because that way the interceptor can stay outside webbing range and stay alive.
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Q2 Do you ever fly a gang without these ships?
Of course. RR BS gangs, capital gangs, full inty gangs, etc There are several gang setups without web bonus ships. And besides we don't always have web bonus pilots online so we adapt according to what each pilot can fly, to field a mixed gang with max capability.
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Q3(trick question) if you answer yes on Q2, have you actually killed people that you wont after the web nerf with that gang? (noobs do not count)
No. After the web nerf it will be much easier to kill people because of the MWD nerf that comes with the web nerf. The Scrambler will function as Web+2 points now so I don't see any real change other than webbing role in gangs switching from ships like the Rapier to ships like the Arazu. With the added benefit or double points as well. OP or what?
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you will stil hit webbed ships with yours after the change since everything flies slower. I really cant see the problem with web change unless you are sitting in your rapier and used to point click, kill anything within range.
You keep talking about the web change. The web change is the less significant of them all. It's the rest that's is so game breaking. I don't fly rapiers or huggins. And I didn't even post anything regarding the the web change. I find it insignificant because there will be no difference in completely nullifying a ship's speed now that scramblers come into play.
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yes i fly other ships but the rest of the changes would be good for pretty much all ships unless your skill relies on running godmode at 9km/s.
I've never flew anything at 9km/s. And with the variety of ships I can fly I am sure the majority of eve players haven't either. What I can tell you though is that I've killed a LOT of vagas going at 9km/s. It's certainly not a god mode. All it takes is knowning how to kill them. The faster ship I fly is the Taranis which is an interceptor and that's at 6.8km/s. And all my navigation Skills are at Level V.
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IF non rigged ceptors cant outrun warriors2
Interceptors are not supposed to get hit. Unless they make a mistake. They can be alpha'd by anything.
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