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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:07:00 -
[451]
Sebea
 Quote:
1)Snipers are going to be untouchable at 200km, nothing will live to make the trip out to them. Whats to be done about this? They now, by virtue of fitting, become untouchable due to the range ability (i.e. when you start getting even remotely close, they just warp out).
Thats why we have tacklers and now dicters to make sure tey don't escape. The battleships on your side as a chance to finish them off or escape. When you think about it, Battleships are quite vulnerable to faster ships.
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:32:00 -
[452]
I think what people are missing here is the game engine is having trouble handling ships going at the speeds they are, it may not be as much of a problem now but as more and more people make extreme speed ships it is going to press the engine more and more in battles causeing worse lag and eventually crashes. And we all love lag and crashes so much. :(
There is a definate imbalance in game play due to speed, but that is not the main issue. If it was the only issue they probably would have fixed it another way.
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FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2008.10.11 00:33:00 -
[453]
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XxqrFEjDswE
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Cdr Gimli
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Posted - 2008.10.11 01:35:00 -
[454]
I think "a" speed nerf is really necessary although I'm not sure if the proposed way is the right way to do it.
But I think there is at least one major issue with nanos that needs to be balanced - they are the only ships in EVE that can actually avoid a fight by just hitting a button/key. There is no real skill involved in that and it rarely needs all those expensive implants people are talking about.
Try flying around in 0.0 with any non-nano ship and you will find out that you will have to fight sooner or later even without running into a blob. But with nano you don't have to fight at all. The only real decision you have to make is if you can win a fight or not. You can even try to fight and run a bit later when you notice you can't win. But there is no real chance your opponent will be able to kill you if your not too stupid (hitting one button at the right moment).
The real problem is that with nano only one player (or side if its a gang) decides if a fight takes place! And usually a fight only takes place if the nano pilot/gang is sure he/they will win! And I honestly think this should not be the case...anybody looking for prey should have to take a considerable risk to be killed! Nanos pilots usually don't take any risks!
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Kethry Avenger
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2008.10.11 03:29:00 -
[455]
Any Plans to release the recording of the Blog? Unlike the last ones I didn't see it stated that it would be.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.10.11 04:57:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Lusian
Sebea
Quote:
1)Snipers are going to be untouchable at 200km, nothing will live to make the trip out to them. Whats to be done about this? They now, by virtue of fitting, become untouchable due to the range ability (i.e. when you start getting even remotely close, they just warp out).
Thats why we have tacklers and now dicters to make sure tey don't escape. The battleships on your side as a chance to finish them off or escape. When you think about it, Battleships are quite vulnerable to faster ships.
actually, if you'd logged in and checked their changes on test, you would have seen the inties dying in droves trying to get to bs that were far away, many trying with near 0 success.
Yes, right now, inties burn out to the snipers, dictors too, but post change, it will take significantly longer to reach the same snipers, and since dictors are already constantly targeted upon approach and killed in droves, post nerf, they will be even worse off.
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Black Necris
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.10.11 06:33:00 -
[457]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Regarding the Cruiser sized ship going faster then a frigate... maybe is a bit wrong a cruiser/BS go faster then a supposedellly interceptor ...
What part of this you dont understand?
Nanopilot with snakes/rigs/officer fittings flying vagabond= 12k
Nanopilot with snakes/rigs/officer fittings flying Interceptor= 16k
Its kinda easy to understand aint it? just read a little.
Originally by: DeadDuck
Regarding the impossibility of being killed .. well they can be killed and they actually die easaly. My only objection to nano fits is that most of the times the fight just doesn't happen ...
And you complain cose the nanogangs dont engage your huge blob? well lest think about it, "Captain the enemy comes to engage our 8 fast ships with 12 BS, 8 Cruisers, 2 Falcons, what do we do captain?" "we engagez! we dont want to let them down yarr!" <--- cose thats logical of course.
Originally by: Lusian
Thats why we have tacklers and now dicters to make sure tey don't escape. The battleships on your side as a chance to finish them off or escape. When you think about it, Battleships are quite vulnerable to faster ships.
You just confirmed my theory about you being mentally impaired, you ask for nano nerf and now you say that tacklers can caught snippers... i bet 2 cents that you never in your life made a run to catch a sniper in an intie or a dictor, either you burn mwd and keep transversal or you die... yet with ships being slower now guess what will happen?? well actually leaving you to guess it might prove to much to your melon head.
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro (mods@ccpgames.com) |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 08:00:00 -
[458]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 08:01:30
Originally by: Killer Rasta
BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
Thank you for proving the point that nano-ships are overpowered 
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design.
If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races.
If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning.
That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning.
...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as perfectly reasonable 
...just as they see it as PERFECTLY reasonable that fleets defending against them have to have multiple times their number
Your desperate focus on keeping your I-Win button prevents you from seeing the huge imbalance in current game mechanics in favor of nano-ships.... or rather, you probably DO realise it, but can't stand the prospect of losing that I-Win button that makes you seem like a great PvP'er.
However, CCP sees it (probable even more clearly as us as they have a huge database to mine), and are giving nano that long overdue nerf.
Real PvP'ers will simply adapt...
People who abused broken game mechanics to PRETEND they were PvP-gods will cry on the forum and threaten to emoragequit...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 08:26:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 08:30:51
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Killer Rasta
BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
1. Tacklers aint special they are important in all forms of pvp and tackling should be essential for pvp fighting, you clowns just want blobs and f1-f8 to be the new style of pvp in eve cos its all you know from ratting.
2. You do not need the same number of rapiers, hyenas and huggins + dps ships but having a few tacklers would make a huge difference (ppl are not NPC rats so do not treat them like they are and expect them to sit still and let you shoot them). A fully mixed and versatile gang is always stronger than a single style of ships.
10 nano vs mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time.
Nano are a form of pvp roaming gang so fitting a pvp gang to properly combat then is how it should be. You cannot hit snipers unless you have other snipers and cannot kill them unless they are tackled and they have the ability to warp off if summat gets close, so what nerf range as well???.
All ships can fit nuets and webs and if ccp listens to its player base webs with range/str ratio scripts, mwd killing scram amopung other things will make killing ships about team work tackling and skill instead of blob and f1-f8.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.11 08:37:00 -
[460]
Edited by: Esmenet on 11/10/2008 08:38:10
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 08:07:51
Originally by: Killer Rasta
BRING HUGGIN,RAPIER HYENA TO THAT DEFENDER FLEET U NOOB AND U WILL WIN.NOOOOB
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
Lol you generally need to bring a gang tailored to fit your opponents regardless of if its nanos or something else. When you are a defender you know the fleet composition of your enemy and have every opportunity to do so. You will die just as horribly to a rr-BS gang with your noobblob of drakes and caracals.
The game is more fun if you need tacklers, ewar, tank, logistics and dps. Instead of the tank+spank strategy advocated on this forum.
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DeadDuck
Amarr
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:03:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Black Necris
stuff
1st: Most of the times even outnumbering us they just don't engage. That's all. You don't even have to blob them ... TBH what I see is blobs of nano ships...
2nd: From what I've heard intys will continue to reach the 4/5k. Well that's more then enough to catch snipers. Intys were doing tackling long before the nano fits, and they were extremely good at it. You just need to know what you are doing that's all.
Maybe with this nerf we will start to see the extremely dangerous sniper eagles again that tbh almost disappeared in fleet battles.
________________
God is my Wingman |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:05:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Kerfira
So you're considering it entirely balanced that a gang that is able to engage a nano-gang with any chance of winning have to bring about the same number of very specialised Minnie ships, AND on top of that people to do damage?
Thank you for proving the point that nano-ships are overpowered
Your side complains so bitterly about blobbing, but continue to defend a broken game mechanic that makes blobbing necessary. That is completely inconsistent
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design.
If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races.
If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning.
That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning.
...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
...just as they see it as PERFECTLY reasonable that fleets defending against them have to have multiple times their number
Your desperate focus on keeping your I-Win button prevents you from seeing the huge imbalance in current game mechanics in favor of nano-ships.... or rather, you probably DO realise it, but can't stand the prospect of losing that I-Win button that makes you seem like a great PvP'er.
However, CCP sees it (probable even more clearly as us as they have a huge database to mine), and are giving nano that long overdue nerf.
Real PvP'ers will simply adapt...
People who abused broken game mechanics to PRETEND they were PvP-gods will cry on the forum and threaten to emoragequit...
Ok, just to be sure I understand what you have written:
Your unorganized gang of random ships get wtfbbqpwned by experienced, PvP devoted nano gang.
It is that what you complain about? Did you ever think it might be your fault that you have lost?
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Cdr Gimli
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:08:00 -
[463]
Quote:
1. Tacklers aint special they are important in all forms of pvp and tackling should be essential for pvp fighting, you clowns just want blobs and f1-f8 to be the new style of pvp in eve cos its all you know from ratting.
The tacklers you need against nano are very special! Just look at your proposed gang below!
Quote:
10 nano vs mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
This so called anti nano gang will be very hard to put together. Harder than the nano gang as most people rather skill for nano.
And there will be no nano kills for them as no nano gang will ever engage them. As I said a few posts before...the nano gang will decide if a fight takes place at all. They do not risk anything.
The other gang on the other hand will be quite easily forced to fight and they risk rather a lot (compared to nano) to fly around in 0.0 and that although this is a great gang setup.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:31:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
The tacklers you need against nano are very special! Just look at your proposed gang below!
Quote:
10 nano vs mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
I see a good mixed pvp gang whats so special about it wtf do you see?.
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
This so called anti nano gang will be very hard to put together. Harder than the nano gang as most people rather skill for nano.
Im a pvper that lives in 0.0 and as such i have every ship listed above (and others like RR BS and snipers) ready and fitted in my hangar. That is called being prepared for combat, summat that every player in 0.0 should be.
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
And there will be no nano kills for them as no nano gang will ever engage them. As I said a few posts before...the nano gang will decide if a fight takes place at all. They do not risk anything.
The choice not to engage is a individuals or gangs decision when they scout a hostile gang, blaming nano when any ship type from noob ship to titan can choose to not engage is a absurd argument.
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
The other gang on the other hand will be quite easily forced to fight and they risk rather a lot (compared to nano) to fly around in 0.0 and that although this is a great gang setup.
The mixed gang is one of the strongest and most versatile type in the game and available to any reasonably sized corp or alliance if they make their members be properly prepared for combat by having a correct selection of pvp fitted ship in their hangar.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:33:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Cdr Gimli
This so called anti nano gang will be very hard to put together. Harder than the nano gang as most people rather skill for nano.
And there will be no nano kills for them as no nano gang will ever engage them. As I said a few posts before...the nano gang will decide if a fight takes place at all. They do not risk anything.
The other gang on the other hand will be quite easily forced to fight and they risk rather a lot (compared to nano) to fly around in 0.0 and that although this is a great gang setup.
It is rock-paper-scissors. All forms of tactic have their own use, their pros and cons - nanos are good for small gang warfare, mixed gangs are more suitable for larger forces, blobs are good for POS and large fleet warfare.
Following your logic, if people actually made an effort and setup their non-nano gangs properly, there would be no nano whining coz fast ships would be less of an 'issue'.
As you said yourself, once you remove nanos from warfare chain, larger gang warfare and blobs are the only option left...
Look at all those people who complain, how many of them have huggin, rapier and logistic ships in their gang? None of them I bet, and what about those hated nano pilots? Huggin/rapier is quite settled member of nano gangs.
Why nerfing nano pilots that are actualy ones making an effort in their fighting and boosting unskilled gangs? Is that how the game should work? Punish those who make an effort and reward lazy?
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:45:00 -
[466]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:45:26
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Kerfira
My post
Ok, just to be sure I understand what you have written:
Your unorganized gang of random ships get wtfbbqpwned by experienced, PvP devoted nano gang.
It is that what you complain about? Did you ever think it might be your fault that you have lost?
No, I'm afraid you can't see past your I-Win button to comprehend a serious argument (no doubt since it's a very large I-Win button).
The above observation is with skilled people in each of the gangs.
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
This is a (VERY) faulty assumption made by all nano-pilots since as they're used to winning, they MUST be PvP-gods. It could in NO WAY be because they're abusing broken game mechanics.
Nano-pilots are no better or worse than other pilots! If you were as good as you SAY you are, then you wouldn't mind these changes, but simply go on killing anyway.
And even if all experienced pilots WERE using nano, this in itself would be proof that nano was overpowered. If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
So even if your argument about skill is correct, it just backfires and PROVES the nano-nerf reasons are valid!
Thanks for proving ONCE AGAIN, that nano'ing is unbalanced and that nano-pilots will make all kind of wild statements to keep their I-Win button.
Have a nice day 
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:52:00 -
[467]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning.
That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning.
...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design.
If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races.
If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:52:00 -
[468]
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning.
That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning.
...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design.
If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races.
If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:53:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Kerfira
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
If you bring slow BC with no tackle to fight a fast gang your a idiot, and the nano gang does not need to be pvp gads to beat you.
Originally by: Kerfira
If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
A mixed gang including logistics, ewar, tackle and dmg is by far better than a pure nano setup, and yes that is exactly what experienced pilots use to fight other gangs.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 09:53:00 -
[470]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 10:14:29
Originally by: Kerfira
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
If you bring slow BC with no tackle to fight a fast gang your a idiot, and the nano gang does not need to be pvp gods to beat you.
Originally by: Kerfira
If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
A mixed gang including logistics, ewar, tackle and dmg is by far better than a pure nano setup, and yes that is exactly what experienced pilots use to fight other gangs nano included.
The right tool for the right job, your problem is you want pve blobs to be the kill all fit for eve.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:01:00 -
[471]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 10:04:22
Originally by: Kerfira
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
30% tackle, 30% dmg dealer, 20% ewar, 20% rep..how is that not close to perfectly balanced as it covers every aspect of pvp... rep,ewar,tackle,dmg..did i miss summat?.
ECM and DAMPS can be used on any ship btw not just recons in fact cruise ravens or other smaller missile ships (if your roaming) make great dmg dealers in this setup as they can fit damps in their mids increasing the ewar in the gang.
Originally by: Kerfira
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Like what sort of gang (of similar numbers) would this setup have no chance against?.. capitals?, RR BS (NANO IS USELESS AGAINST THEM AS WELL).
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WTF YOUR TALKING ABOUT
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:01:00 -
[472]
Edited by: Murina on 11/10/2008 10:41:17
Originally by: Kerfira
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
30% tackle, 30% dmg dealer, 20% ewar, 20% rep..how is that not close to perfectly balanced as it covers every aspect of pvp... rep,ewar,tackle,dmg..did i miss summat?.
I cannot divide the 4 aspects (dmg,ewar,tackle,rep)exactly into 10 ships cos it comes out at 2.5 ships for each aspect of the gang (dmg,ewar,tackle,rep) and nobody i know will let me cut their ship in half.
ECM and DAMPS can be used on any ship btw not just recons in fact cruise ravens or other smaller missile ships (if your roaming) make great dmg dealers in this setup as they can fit damps in their mids increasing the ewar in the gang.
Its all about fitting for actual combat and working as a team instead of your f1-f8 idea of pvp.
Originally by: Kerfira
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Like what sort of gang (of similar numbers) would this setup have no chance against?.. capitals?, RR BS (NANO IS USELESS AGAINST THEM AS WELL).
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WTF YOUR TALKING ABOUT
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:36:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:45:26
No, I'm afraid you can't see past your I-Win button to comprehend a serious argument (no doubt since it's a very large I-Win button).
The above observation is with skilled people in each of the gangs.
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
This is a (VERY) faulty assumption made by all nano-pilots since as they're used to winning, they MUST be PvP-gods. It could in NO WAY be because they're abusing broken game mechanics.
Nano-pilots are no better or worse than other pilots! If you were as good as you SAY you are, then you wouldn't mind these changes, but simply go on killing anyway.
And even if all experienced pilots WERE using nano, this in itself would be proof that nano was overpowered. If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
So even if your argument about skill is correct, it just backfires and PROVES the nano-nerf reasons are valid!
Thanks for proving ONCE AGAIN, that nano'ing is unbalanced and that nano-pilots will make all kind of wild statements to keep their I-Win button.
Have a nice day
As it was already said and proven by experience, mixed gang can easily counter nanos of equal gang size. Where is the 'I win button' then?
If they lose, I can't see any other option but their fault due being random setup/unskilled gang.
Different setups have different counters, it is called diversity. It seems more like it is you looking for 'I win button' - a gang that can beat any gang that can possibly encounter...
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.11 10:36:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:45:26
No, I'm afraid you can't see past your I-Win button to comprehend a serious argument (no doubt since it's a very large I-Win button).
The above observation is with skilled people in each of the gangs.
However, you (of cause) immediately assume that the nano-gang is composed of PvP-gods, and everyone they kill is not.
This is a (VERY) faulty assumption made by all nano-pilots since as they're used to winning, they MUST be PvP-gods. It could in NO WAY be because they're abusing broken game mechanics.
Nano-pilots are no better or worse than other pilots! If you were as good as you SAY you are, then you wouldn't mind these changes, but simply go on killing anyway.
And even if all experienced pilots WERE using nano, this in itself would be proof that nano was overpowered. If it wasn't, then the experienced pilots would use all kinds of different gang setups....
So even if your argument about skill is correct, it just backfires and PROVES the nano-nerf reasons are valid!
Thanks for proving ONCE AGAIN, that nano'ing is unbalanced and that nano-pilots will make all kind of wild statements to keep their I-Win button.
Have a nice day
As it was already said and proven by experience, mixed gang can easily counter nanos of equal gang size. Where is the 'I win button' then?
If they lose, I can't see any other option but their fault due being random setup/unskilled gang.
Different setups have different counters, it is called diversity. It seems more like it is you looking for 'I win button' - a gang that can beat any gang that can possibly encounter...
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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 11:03:00 -
[475]
First of the Blog at itself was very disapointing, there is not real reason to use a live dev blog if you donŠt actualy interact with Questions and leave the importent ones out or mostly unawnsered. A simple post in FAQ Style would be mutch better or a simple we working on it be more polite if you donŠt have awnsers to the important stuff ready at this point.
Second one, for the love of God can stop posting the Nano Crap over and over, it has been talked to death. Nano is one style of PVP, it is not the only style of PVP.
Your not uber because u use Nano and bringing speeds down to a level where the light Tank actualy is a drawback is a good thing and will seperate the 80% of the noobs that use Nano to get away, from the 20% of the realy good players at it(like in any other PVP Style aswell).
Third it is realy disapointing that nowhere in the Blog is everything about other PVP related things that realy get a shaft with the changes to but not related to nano.
Like close Range Setups, Blaster and AK Tracking issues when gooing close, Missle & Laser rebalancing, small ship vs Sniper balancing, tackling things solo with the weaker web in standard situations often named as piracy or defense against Drones or smaller ships vs big ones(since the 60% Web will fail you in this common PVP Situations now).
As a someone that flyes Blaster ships since 2 years, got nearly every Skill to 5 that makes them better this is very disapointing that you didnŠt mentioned the big and very constructive thread about it or awnsering qutestion about this issue. A Blaster ship that canŠt hit at his combat range or hold Targets down will be as useless as a unbonused Heavy Missle Ship is now against a common T2 Nano Fitting.
It it requires at the moment a ton of Skillpoints(where Nano is more broken at the module stacking not on the skills or ships) and ISK to even use a Blaster ship effective in PVP while not shooting only noobs and since the Laser and Torp boost, other ships dooing the same just better atm when itŠs not about solo PVP.
Again at all the Nano Pilotes out there you are not the only ones that get a nerf, you just to blind to see the other aspects of PVP that get heaviely affected by it to, so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting!
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 11:03:00 -
[476]
Edited by: The Djego on 11/10/2008 11:12:31
First of the Blog at itself was very disapointing, there is not real reason to use a live dev blog if you donŠt actualy interact with Questions and leave the importent ones out or mostly unawnsered. A simple post in FAQ Style would be mutch better or a simple we working on it be more polite if you donŠt have awnsers to the important stuff ready at this point.
Second one, for the love of God can we please stop posting the Nano Crap over and over, it has been talked to death. Nano is one style of PVP, it is not the only style of PVP.
Your not uber because u use Nano and bringing speeds down to a level where the light Tank actualy is a drawback is a good thing and will seperate the 80% of the noobs that use Nano to get away, from the 20% of the realy good players at it(like in any other PVP Style aswell).
Third it is realy disapointing that nowhere in the Blog is everything about other PVP related things that realy get a shaft with the changes to but not related to nano.
Like close Range Setups, Blaster and AK Tracking issues when gooing close, Missle & Laser rebalancing, small ship vs Sniper balancing, tackling things solo with the weaker web in standard situations often named as piracy or defense against Drones or smaller ships vs big ones(since the 60% Web will fail you in this common PVP Situations now).
As a someone that flyes Blaster ships since 2 years, got nearly every Skill to 5 that makes them better this is very disapointing that you didnŠt mentioned the big and very constructive thread about it or awnsering qutestion about this issue. A Blaster ship that canŠt hit at his combat range or hold Targets down will be as useless as a unbonused Heavy Missle Ship is now against a common T2 Nano Fitting.
It requires at the moment a ton of Skillpoints(where Nano is more broken at the module stacking not on the skills or ships) and ISK to even use a Blaster ship effective in PVP while not shooting only noobs and since the Laser and Torp boost, other ships dooing the same just better atm when itŠs not about solo PVP.
Again at all the Nano Pilotes out there you are not the only ones that get a nerf, you just to blind to see the other aspects of PVP that get heaviely affected by it to, so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting! 
edit: typo
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Hul'ka
Minmatar
MicroFunks
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 12:27:00 -
[477]
Originally by: The Djego
...so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting!
edit: typo
dude, only guys avoiding other then nano aspects of this nerf are pro nerf guys. They are the only one shouting only one thing: "this nerf rulez, nano is overpowere".
All of those issues are beeing adressed by anty nerf guys, since we rerely fly only nano.
---------
phew phew
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Hul'ka
Minmatar
MicroFunks
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 12:27:00 -
[478]
Originally by: The Djego
...so stop your stupid emo forumrage and get back to some constructive posting!
edit: typo
dude, only guys avoiding other then nano aspects of this nerf are pro nerf guys. They are the only one shouting only one thing: "this nerf rulez, nano is overpowere".
All of those issues are beeing adressed by anty nerf guys, since we rerely fly only nano.
---------
phew phew
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 14:17:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning.
That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning.
...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design.
If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races.
If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Are you mentally ******ed? Do you even PVP? The make up up his "anti-nano" gang is good for fighting ANY equal sized gang. If its got falcons, its able to likely jam 80% of the opposing group, no matter if they are nano's, rrbs, or what have you.
In fact, likely the only thing that 10 man gang wouldnt be a danger to would be a 10 man cap gang.
And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
Everybody here living in the "THERE WERE ROAMING GANGS BEFORE NANO'S" needs to step back and think for a bit. There was a LOT of stuff before nano's, and now...hold on, this will shock you....THE GAME HAS CHANGED MASSIVELY OVER THE YEARS.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Eliminating this is basically making combat a default picket line of ships just blasting away at each other, and you won't be able to roam simply by virtue of all the afk scouts, that as soon as your reported, jump bridging fleets, titan bridging fleets, and the super gay giant CVA style gate camps that will just obliterate any attempt at roaming gangs as they will no longer have the speed to get away.
Great you say. Riiight. Till the player base starts to quit because of it. EVE is special, but not so special that you should be bored to death because to even go roaming you need 50-60 guys. If players quit, it wont be "oh cool, can i have your stuff, and now we have less lag", it could end up with the current financial state of things in iceland as "we regret to inform you that due to a shrinking player base the EVE cluster will be closing as of blah blah date".
Sure, all of us PVP guys will adapt, we will change tactics, and adapt, and we will still TRY out the new system, but if its boring, or not fun, then likely as not, players may leave, and that is actually, despite all your trolling of "good riddance", bad for EVE
|
Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 14:17:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 11/10/2008 09:54:49
Originally by: Murina
10 man nano gang (hacs) vs 10 man mixed gang (3 rapiers 2 logistic 2 ewar 3 dps ships with good range)
Nano gets owned big time while the mixed gang does not lose a single ship.
Thanks for proving my point.....
You consider is BALANCED that a gang has to include 30% of one single specific ship (Rapier), and 50% of a certain shiptype (Recons)????
Seriously, step back from your I-Win button and try to get some perspective
This gang has a good chance against a nano-gang, but has absolutely NO chance whatsoever against any other type of gang.... The nano-gang however, has a good chance against any other type of gang but this one...
Quoting from my post:
Originally by: Kerfira
A nano-gang can engage any other type of gang except a very specialised one with a disproportionate large chance of winning.
That very specialised anti-nano gang can not engage anything BUT a nano-gang with any chance of winning.
...but of.c. nano-pilots see this as PERFECTLY reasonable
Let me get this straight.... You're trying to counter my argument by providing a case that perfectly validates it?
Not very smart....
Originally by: Kerfira
All races can nano up their ships to some degree, but to require that defending fleets have a large specialised Minnie component (that's utterly useless against non-nano ships) is simply not good game design.
If a fitting is 'general' across the races (as nano'ing is), then the counter should also be 'general' across the races.
If f.ex. only Minnie ships could be nano'ed, then it would make sense to require the counter to be equally specialised. This is not the case!
Are you mentally ******ed? Do you even PVP? The make up up his "anti-nano" gang is good for fighting ANY equal sized gang. If its got falcons, its able to likely jam 80% of the opposing group, no matter if they are nano's, rrbs, or what have you.
In fact, likely the only thing that 10 man gang wouldnt be a danger to would be a 10 man cap gang.
And since when are rapiers only useful against nano's. What game do you play?
Everybody here living in the "THERE WERE ROAMING GANGS BEFORE NANO'S" needs to step back and think for a bit. There was a LOT of stuff before nano's, and now...hold on, this will shock you....THE GAME HAS CHANGED MASSIVELY OVER THE YEARS.
I'm going to let you digest that for a bit.
Got it now? did it sink in?
Eliminating this is basically making combat a default picket line of ships just blasting away at each other, and you won't be able to roam simply by virtue of all the afk scouts, that as soon as your reported, jump bridging fleets, titan bridging fleets, and the super gay giant CVA style gate camps that will just obliterate any attempt at roaming gangs as they will no longer have the speed to get away.
Great you say. Riiight. Till the player base starts to quit because of it. EVE is special, but not so special that you should be bored to death because to even go roaming you need 50-60 guys. If players quit, it wont be "oh cool, can i have your stuff, and now we have less lag", it could end up with the current financial state of things in iceland as "we regret to inform you that due to a shrinking player base the EVE cluster will be closing as of blah blah date".
Sure, all of us PVP guys will adapt, we will change tactics, and adapt, and we will still TRY out the new system, but if its boring, or not fun, then likely as not, players may leave, and that is actually, despite all your trolling of "good riddance", bad for EVE
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