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Shield tanking battleships and the active/buffer question

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Author	Topic
6Bagheera9 Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.07 13:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: 6Bagheera9 ven with the mwd, a raven is inherently a slow boat. You will never make it fast, only less slow, and at the cost of 25% of your cap. An AB is actually a better choice for those impatient to re-approach a gate/station. No, no. no. Stop mindlessly repeating this tired old myth. A Raven has comparable agility and speed to plated, armour-rigged BS. They're slightly superior in some cases, and slightly inferior in others. Yes and the main reason these armor rigged BS have a MWD fitted is because they need to get close enough to do damage. Most fights on a gate or station are gonna be at or below 30km. If they are at greater range you'd be better off switching to Javelins anyway as you'll be able to load them faster than it would take to waddle over there.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.10.07 14:28:00 - [32] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: 6Bagheera9 ven with the mwd, a raven is inherently a slow boat. You will never make it fast, only less slow, and at the cost of 25% of your cap. An AB is actually a better choice for those impatient to re-approach a gate/station. No, no. no. Stop mindlessly repeating this tired old myth. A Raven has comparable agility and speed to plated, armour-rigged BS. They're slightly superior in some cases, and slightly inferior in others. Yes and the main reason these armor rigged BS have a MWD fitted is because they need to get close enough to do damage. Most fights on a gate or station are gonna be at or below 30km. If they are at greater range you'd be better off switching to Javelins anyway as you'll be able to load them faster than it would take to waddle over there. I like having an MWD always fit just in case. I think it's benefits far outweigh the fitting and cap costs. If leading a small gang I prefer others to have MWD fit as well. Not saying your wrong - but I think the general consensus people have is that the MWD is a module worth fitting. There are numerous scenarios where having one is superior to an AB or nothing. I agree that I rarely have range as an issue with torps when in small roaming gangs or camps. Every once in awhile an enemy is 5-10km too far out that the MWD helps cover more quickly. Even ignoring that use completely there are a ton of times where I've been glad the MWD was there. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.07 14:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Derek Sigres It seems that this trend of buffer tanking has been started by the Armor tanked ships of the game - and since most of those are legendary PVP ships in their own right it simply made sense for the less reknowned shield tankers to follow suit. IMO its the other way around. Passive shield tanks are far more effective as they recharge. If you have a lot of hp, chances are youll have a decent shield recharged as that is constant, which helps negates dps (sort of acts like a small shield booster!). And since Shield extenders have no effect on speed setups etc, they are often preffered. Awesome EVE history Missiles ba-oom!
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.07 16:47:00 - [34] I've never been much of a fan for the buffer HP tanks unless its on a ship with a resist bonus. A good active tank can usually edge out the HP tank in under a minute, and if you are getting ganked down faster than that the HP tank only buys you a few extra seconds of life anyway. Of course, a lot of neuts could render you incapable of boosting for a full minute. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.10.07 17:30:00 - [35] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Derek Sigres All the cap I'm asking for is 6 cycles worth. That's 1/2 the raven's cap supply. Remember, we're worried about survivng the battle and if it comes down to that slim (maybe 1 - 2k under good circumstances) HP margin the XL booster could give you the alternative was exploding. In short, is it better to survive the first round and be left with a heap of troubles or explode in the first round and not have to worry about them? So let's take your fit: 6x Siege II 100mn MWD II, PWNAGE, LSE II, C5-L XL, 2x Invuln II 3x BCU II, Co-Proc II, DC II 3x CDFE I 93.8K EHP [104.2K / 3 mins] + 407 DPS / 72s 1158 DPS OR 6x Siege II 100mn MWD II, PWNAGE, LSE II, C5-L XL, 2x Invuln II 3x BCU II, Co-Proc II, DC II 3x CDOS I 73.7K EHP [80.5K / 3 mins] + 587 DPS / 44s 1158 DPS Then let's compare it with mine: 6x Siege II 100mn MWD II, PWNAGE, 2x LSE II, 2x Invuln II 3x BCU II, PDU II, DC II 3x CDFE I 112.8K EHP [126.5K / 3 mins] + 113DPS / inf 1158 DPS -Liang /hijack. Man that's just sooooo wrong, and people wonder why blasters compare poorly these days... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.07 17:36:00 - [36] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/10/2008 17:37:01 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Liang Nuren 6x Siege II 100mn MWD II, PWNAGE, LSE II, C5-L XL, 2x Invuln II 3x BCU II, Co-Proc II, DC II 3x CDFE I 93.8K EHP [104.2K / 3 mins] + 407 DPS / 72s 1158 DPS -Liang /hijack. Man that's just sooooo wrong, and people wonder why blasters compare poorly these days... Hahahaha... MY Raven does about 1200+ DPS unoverloaded... because I run a 4th BCU instead of a co-proc or PDU. -Liang --
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:53:00 - [37] This thread failed the moment the OP legitimately suggested that "all you need is 20s, ok 25s, ok 30s, ok 6, 8, 10 cycles of running your booster, honest" and then stated with a straight face that was viable even under neuting. Unless you're typical fight is your battleship vs 2-3 cruisers or other crap DPS, even 30 seconds is far too long to expect that you're capacitor will sitting there untouched, a reserve just for you to call upon when you need it. Oh and you never start a fight at 100% capacitor, ever. How to Fail at Eve
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.07 22:21:00 - [38] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 07/10/2008 22:21:27 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Man that's just sooooo wrong, and people wonder why blasters compare poorly these days... What are you talking about?!?!?! Blasters are AWESOME...... on a Rokh :P signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.08 04:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Rajere This thread failed the moment the OP legitimately suggested that "all you need is 20s, ok 25s, ok 30s, ok 6, 8, 10 cycles of running your booster, honest" and then stated with a straight face that was viable even under neuting. Unless you're typical fight is your battleship vs 2-3 cruisers or other crap DPS, even 30 seconds is far too long to expect that you're capacitor will sitting there untouched, a reserve just for you to call upon when you need it. Oh and you never start a fight at 100% capacitor, ever. Yep, 30 seconds and roughly 1/3 - 1/2 (dependeent upon skills of course) of the cap available to a raven is all it takes. Unless your under some pretty extreme neuting power (i.e. more than 2 of them) or otherwise dumping absolute gobs of cap (forgot to turn off that MWD when you got in range) the cap is there, and as such your counter argument is as inheritly flawed as what you're trying to say is silly. The simple fact is IF you can get 30 seconds and IF you have about 1/3 of your cap avialable, an XL booster is BETTER than the LSE. This is the standard of the argument and the argument all rolled into one you see - it's nicely packaged like that. Yes, you can generate a billion scenarios where you won't survive 30 seconds or have the cap available and so forth but let's face it - you were going to die in those situations ANYWAY, probably without doing a single bit of good. Let's just examine what 30 seconds means - that's a theoritical 30 - 45k DPS from the gankier battleships delivered on a target, but by and large the REAL number is going to be substantially lower (And I'm not talking resists, I'm talking missed shots, drone travel time and so forth). As such, against a full GANK battleship slug match the odds are slighly in favor of the XL booster. The reason is fairly simple - a true gank ship doesn't fit a neut - it simply will not fit, and the damage output is low enough that the Raven will certainly survive the required 30 seconds and assuming he manages his cap supply he'll have the cap available as well. Conversely, if the scenario involves 2 gank ships the LSE is favored because 2 gank ships can generate the theoritical firepower required to melt the Raven in the 30 second window (it still isn't likely but it becomes a very real statistical possibility). This means the LSE is going to be favored in this scenario. The result still isn't any better - you'll live longer but you won't actually take down any agressor in the process. If the sum total incomming firepower is less than about 2.5k DPS the XL booster proves to be the superior option. I know there are MANY scenarios where you'll take far more than that - I have admitted it time and again in this very thread. My essential point to be had here is that the worst case scenario style of tank that exists today is not always going to be the most effecient choice of tank for the handful of shield tanking battleships out there (and this holds even MORE true for any battleship that recieves a shield boost quantity rather than resist bonus). You can rally against the logic all you want - not ALL pvp engagements result in a brutal raping of a single target, and if they do then neither tank function will actually affect the outcome of your contribution. I'm talking about playing the odds - most of the detractors are going on about planning for the worst, rather than the most likely scenario.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.08 05:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Derek Sigres Yep, 30 seconds and roughly 1/3 - 1/2 (dependeent upon skills of course) of the cap available to a raven is all it takes. Unless your under some pretty extreme neuting power (i.e. more than 2 of them) or otherwise dumping absolute gobs of cap (forgot to turn off that MWD when you got in range) the cap is there, and as such your counter argument is as inheritly flawed as what you're trying to say is silly. The simple fact is IF you can get 30 seconds and IF you have about 1/3 of your cap avialable, an XL booster is BETTER than the LSE. This is the standard of the argument and the argument all rolled into one you see - it's nicely packaged like that. Yes, you can generate a billion scenarios where you won't survive 30 seconds or have the cap available and so forth but let's face it - you were going to die in those situations ANYWAY, probably without doing a single bit of good. Saying "you were dead anyway" is not a good reason to have people fit a bad fit. You also neglect to mention what happens when you need the cap you just wasted (such as to MWD back to the gate or out of web/scram range). Quote: You can rally against the logic all you want - not ALL pvp engagements result in a brutal raping of a single target, and if they do then neither tank function will actually affect the outcome of your contribution. I'm talking about playing the odds - most of the detractors are going on about planning for the worst, rather than the most likely scenario. Sorry Derek, I respect you, but you're the one that's missing out on the bigger picture: the cap has better uses than an XL booster, even if your scheme did work. -Liang --

Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2008.10.08 06:33:00 - [41] Honestly all these fits seem to apply to one very specific scenario which is very small gang PVP (IE, one raven, one tackler). In reality, there's a myriad of different contexts wherein you should be filling a role in your gang/fleet and that role should dictate your fit. As an example, while cruise missiles are the bane of EFT warriors in reality they have a place in gang combat and specifically remote repping gangs but you'll almost never see a remote repping cruise missile raven on these forums. Passive > Active is just a 'hard and fast' rule that applies to most scenarios. That doesn't mean there don't exist scenarios where I'd be crazy to not fit an active tank.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.08 07:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Dasalt Istgut As an example, while cruise missiles are the bane of EFT warriors in reality they have a place in gang combat and specifically remote repping gangs but you'll almost never see a remote repping cruise missile raven on these forums. I've been tossing this one about lately, but the lows are pretty malable. I like having at least one BCU so that it's more damage friendly than a cerb: [Raven, ECCM Sniper] Ballistic Control System II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range ECCM - Gravimetric II ECCM - Gravimetric II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5 Warrior II x5 -Liang --
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.10.08 09:56:00 - [43] I'm a pretty big fan of the active raven, I've had quite alot of success with it mainly for gatecamping under sentry fire. 6 siege 2's 1 xlsb2 1 sba2 1 invuln2 1 photon2 1 heavy electrochem 1 WD2/TP/ECCM/SBA/2nd invuln lows 1 pdu2 1 co-pro2 2 BCU2 1 DCU/3rd BCU rigs Shield extender/active tank bonus rigs/shield resist rigs Can potentially tank an absolute shitload if setup with 2 invulns and active shield rigs which reduce cycle time and reduce cap usage. Can easily tank over 1k damage unoverloaded for 5 minutes and deal around 1k DPS itself. As for the remote rep raven, so many other ships can do it better it's just not worth it. Just train for a typhoon; it's faster, has a better tank, has more DPS and much more remote rep capability.

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