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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:09:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
The Ishtar is taking a huge nerf - and in fact has never been as good at doing what a "HAC" should do as the Zealot/Sac (Mk II). It'll be ok, and possibly even passable if you care to spend a few hundred mil on faction fittings to get around its horrible CPU problems.
And the Cerb is in every way inferior to the Sac in almost every PVP situation - but at least has the added advantage that it can engage outside a close range battleship's engagement range (about 70-100km). This is good because it doesn't really have the tank to survive fire (especially ranged fire.... ). On the bright side, though, the Cerb makes for an extremely expensive anti-falcon ship. :)
And then we get to the Muninn - I do believe that it has to actually be alive *now* to "survive". The *only* thing that you should use a Muninn for is sitting on top of a gate with 720's and popping ceptors as they come in. Except you should be using a Hurricane for that.
-Liang |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:13:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:05:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
Muninn? Survive? That ship isn't even good NOW. How exaclty is it going to be even remotely useful post-patch?
Because warrior IIs and light missiles now actually hit inties? That sounds like a BOOST and muninn is NOT worthless at all. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:14:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 05:14:28
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:05:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
Muninn? Survive? That ship isn't even good NOW. How exaclty is it going to be even remotely useful post-patch?
Because warrior IIs and light missiles now actually hit inties? That sounds like a BOOST and muninn is NOT worthless at all.
I see what you did there, and it was not polite to do that in public. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:16:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
The Ishtar is taking a huge nerf - and in fact has never been as good at doing what a "HAC" should do as the Zealot/Sac (Mk II). It'll be ok, and possibly even passable if you care to spend a few hundred mil on faction fittings to get around its horrible CPU problems.
And the Cerb is in every way inferior to the Sac in almost every PVP situation - but at least has the added advantage that it can engage outside a close range battleship's engagement range (about 70-100km). This is good because it doesn't really have the tank to survive fire (especially ranged fire.... ). On the bright side, though, the Cerb makes for an extremely expensive anti-falcon ship. :)
And then we get to the Muninn - I do believe that it has to actually be alive *now* to "survive". The *only* thing that you should use a Muninn for is sitting on top of a gate with 720's and popping ceptors as they come in. Except you should be using a Hurricane for that.
-Liang
Ishtar has less tank then a sac but more dps. It will work similar to a sac. It wont "die".
You are comparing a cerb to a sac? They dont even remotely have the same role. Cerbs can be fitted for pretty extreme ranges, even useful for forcing closer ecm ships off grid. Its not a brawler like the sac. lol. The patch will have NO impact whatsoever on this ship. If anything it will get boosted because missiles now will WORK.
Muninn. Read above. If anything it is boosted by the patch. Its not near dead at all. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:17:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Because warrior IIs and light missiles now actually hit inties? That sounds like a BOOST and muninn is NOT worthless at all.
The Muninn has never had problems hitting inties. Afterall, inties simply instapop when they jump through the gate. No need for Warrior IIs or precision lights.
But then, shooting inties in a gatecamp is a pretty damn small niche.
-Liang |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:18:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Because warrior IIs and light missiles now actually hit inties? That sounds like a BOOST and muninn is NOT worthless at all.
The Muninn has never had problems hitting inties. Afterall, inties simply instapop when they jump through the gate. No need for Warrior IIs or precision lights.
But then, shooting inties in a gatecamp is a pretty damn small niche.
-Liang
Well muninns are used in larger fleet fights too. You can pop something with guns while popping something else with missiles + drones. How is that not useful? Its more to handle, yes! It is more fun? Yes! It requires more skill? Yes! Muninn is great? It can be, if you try! |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:20:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 05:21:37
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Muninn. Read above. If anything it is boosted by the patch. Its not near dead at all.
It's akin to taking one horribly malfunctioning soviet era eastern bloc european car which was left in the state of disrepair for the last 20 years, and then slapping on extra paint and a stereo and trying to sell it.
Next you'll try to suggest it's fine, eh?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:21:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ishtar has less tank then a sac but more dps. It will work similar to a sac. It wont "die".
Oh, but wait, they're nerfing the phooey out of drones, didn't you hear? 450 DPS vs a cruiser - I think not (or I rather strongly suspect not). No, we'll see what 150-200 DPS vs a cruiser... what's a Sac put out again?
Quote: You are comparing a cerb to a sac? They dont even remotely have the same role. Cerbs can be fitted for pretty extreme ranges, even useful for forcing closer ecm ships off grid. Its not a brawler like the sac. lol. The patch will have NO impact whatsoever on this ship. If anything it will get boosted because missiles now will WORK.
I think I already mentioned that the Cerb is a long ranged ship and should only be used at long ranges.
Quote: Muninn. Read above. If anything it is boosted by the patch. Its not near dead at all.
Um, I already did and responded there.
-Liang |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:21:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/10/2008 05:21:45
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Well muninns are used in larger fleet fights too. You can pop something with guns while popping something else with missiles + drones. How is that not useful? Its more to handle, yes! It is more fun? Yes! It requires more skill? Yes! Muninn is great? It can be, if you try!
The problem is that you should never be using a Muninn. It's *ALWAYS* better to use a Hurricane.
-Liang
Ed: Notice how I didn't say it's always better to use a Zealot? Well, even though it's true, I figured I'd pick on the HAC/BC problem for a while. :) |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:29:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ishtar has less tank then a sac but more dps. It will work similar to a sac. It wont "die".
Oh, but wait, they're nerfing the phooey out of drones, didn't you hear? 450 DPS vs a cruiser - I think not (or I rather strongly suspect not). No, we'll see what 150-200 DPS vs a cruiser... what's a Sac put out again?
Quote: You are comparing a cerb to a sac? They dont even remotely have the same role. Cerbs can be fitted for pretty extreme ranges, even useful for forcing closer ecm ships off grid. Its not a brawler like the sac. lol. The patch will have NO impact whatsoever on this ship. If anything it will get boosted because missiles now will WORK.
I think I already mentioned that the Cerb is a long ranged ship and should only be used at long ranges.
Quote: Muninn. Read above. If anything it is boosted by the patch. Its not near dead at all.
Um, I already did and responded there.
-Liang
1. No, they are only nerfing medium drones. Im pretty sure your ogres will hit a webbed cruiser even with web nerf.
2. Id say right now a hurricane is not as good as a muninn for anti support work because of less tracking. After speed nerf though you might not need all that tracking. I dont know exactly because I havent been able to try that stuff out much on sisi before the changes got removed. In that case you have a point but its still more of an issue that ccp were crazy to give us all overpowered tier 2 BCs instead of fixing the tier 1s first and/or giving tier 2 BCs more special roles instead of making them beefy tier 1 BCs or BCs that take over hac roles. |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:40:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/10/2008 05:05:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
Muninn? Survive? That ship isn't even good NOW. How exaclty is it going to be even remotely useful post-patch?
Because warrior IIs and light missiles now actually hit inties? That sounds like a BOOST and muninn is NOT worthless at all.
Oh, yay, I can hit inties. Too bad for the Muninn I can do that even better with a Hurricane, or better yet, something that isn't Minmatar.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 05:40:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. No, they are only nerfing medium drones. Im pretty sure your ogres will hit a webbed cruiser even with web nerf.
I didn't have much luck with my Ogres hitting cruisers on the test server. Gardes might do it if I drop them out far enough though.
Quote:
2. Id say right now a hurricane is not as good as a muninn for anti support work because of less tracking. After speed nerf though you might not need all that tracking. I dont know exactly because I havent been able to try that stuff out much on sisi before the changes got removed. In that case you have a point but its still more of an issue that ccp were crazy to give us all overpowered tier 2 BCs instead of fixing the tier 1s first and/or giving tier 2 BCs more special roles instead of making them beefy tier 1 BCs or BCs that take over hac roles.
Um, the Hurricane is *SUPERIOR* to the Muninn for anti-support roles even today. I don't understand how you can possibly claim that it isn't... because if the ship is going fast enough to avoid the Hurricane's arties, it's *damn* sure going fast enough to avoid the Muninn's.
-Liang --
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.10 06:26:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/10/2008 06:32:25 The artillery Hurricane is absolutely a better ship then the Munnin is. It ends up getting a extra gun, mid, low and rig slot. Munnin simply has utterly horrible slot distribution making it vastly inferior to everything, and even somewhat inferior to the Tier 2 BC in the role it's bonused for, a issue other HACs do not have. Not really a issue of Tier 2 BC taking over HAC role, but rather the HAC in question sucking in this case
Actually, I do use artillery Hurricane (although not fit like you'd fit a Munnin, given I use them for low-sec camps & small gangs so EHP is a consideration as well), it's not a bad ship, just has a sub-par weapon system.
More tracking (fitting for a comparatively short optimal weapon system) + clipsize (particularly on higher tier artillery - having half the clipsize of lower-tier arties is insane, the DPS increase given fights do last longer then 1 reload is virtually nil) would go a long way, although you still have the issue of range (which you could solve by either giving them more optimal, or making TEs / TCs boost falloff).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.10 07:35:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
Eh even if you dont consider the drone nerf, the ishtar will just be a weaker version of a dominix that is 3 times as expensive.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 08:03:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
Eh even if you dont consider the drone nerf, the ishtar will just be a weaker version of a dominix that is 3 times as expensive.
Sorry but I dont see you doing any belt piracy and roaming or mobile soloing in a brick like domi. Emo all you like, ishtars will be used even after patch. |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.10 08:51:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 10/10/2008 08:52:55 Liang, Liang, poor Liang. Seems like the nanonerf discussion has brought out the worst in you. I'm going along with Lyria now.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:00:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Esmenet on 10/10/2008 09:03:06
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You might wanna add ishtar, cerb, muninn. They will DEFINATELY survive the changes. Hmm? Thats pretty much all hacs mate.
Eh even if you dont consider the drone nerf, the ishtar will just be a weaker version of a dominix that is 3 times as expensive.
Sorry but I dont see you doing any belt piracy and roaming or mobile soloing in a brick like domi. Emo all you like, ishtars will be used even after patch.
Nanofits are dead, and a tanked ishtar aligns just as fast as a tanked domi. Roaming gangs will change greatly if they continue to exist after this nerf. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:09:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Esmenet
Nanofits are dead, and a tanked ishtar aligns just as fast as a tanked domi. Roaming gangs will change greatly if they continue to exist after this nerf.
Hah? What? I think align time of 7 seconds vs 15.7 seconds is not "just as fast". I see you have adapted to liangs way of forum warfare, to make stuff up that isnt true. |
Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.10 09:27:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Esmenet
Nanofits are dead, and a tanked ishtar aligns just as fast as a tanked domi. Roaming gangs will change greatly if they continue to exist after this nerf.
Hah? What? I think align time of 7 seconds vs 15.7 seconds is not "just as fast". I see you have adapted to liangs way of forum warfare, to make stuff up that isnt true.
Its 10 secs for any battleship, so at best its a 3 sec difference, less if you fit a plate on your ishtar. Considering that the domi is a lot more versatile and powerful and a lot cheaper there isnt really any contest. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 16:32:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 10/10/2008 08:52:55 Liang, Liang, poor Liang. Seems like the nanonerf discussion has brought out the worst in you. I'm going along with Lyria now.
Feel free - it's not actually the nano nerf (because I'm in favor of *A* nano nerf.. just not this one). It's that Lyria constantly tells us that every non-Amarr ship is perfectly fine no matter how horribly broken it is... and then follows it up with some complete BS reason why whatever broken thing Amarr are doing is perfectly acceptable.
I'm pretty sure if CCP screwed up and gave the 100km pulse lasers she'd call it A-Ok and make up some bullshit reason why it was fine that way.
-Liang --
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.10 18:59:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: JVol
This may come as a surprise to those of you who just joined the community in the last 1.5 -2 years.. But.. Eve was fun and VERY playable BEFORE nanos were a glimmer in CCP's eye. Hacs were all over and feared, blobs were present ( not a new feature ) and you learned to use a scout or your scanner, or to die like a man. Eve will be fine when nanos are gone, and they WILL BE GONE, they are broke.
True pvpers will adapt and be just as deadly, altho they will have to learn to pick targets cause running wont be an option 95% of the time as it is now.
This may come as a surprise to you but the 0.0 of today is very different from what it was way back when. The game will still be playable once nanos are nerfed but 0.0 will be a much more boring place unless your primary interest is ratting.
Did I say I had been 'gone' for the last few years? Did I say I wasnt aware of how eve is atm? I own caps, I own 0.0 space, I deal with blobs, bubbles, cloakers, and yes... NANNOs! Ive done empire wars, suscide ganking, missin baiting and uuug, pos warfare. There isnt a single aspect of eve I havent dabbled in enough to know what im talking about.
In all of that I could say i've spent about .00004% of my eve time ratting. The rest has been devoted to killing other players in one way or another, their ships, their will to fight, their hope and dreams.. plainly... PVP.
Nannos werent around when we used coverts or intys to drop in on snipers or falcons, we used intys as intys were intended. We used HACs as they were intended, and they were and are still very powerfull cruisers. Snipers/blobs and bubbles are not new.. tactics for surviving eve are ever changing. Nannos were broke the first time a maxed out char with presicion mis in a nighthawk got the first "0.0" damage on a sac going 4k and orbiting at 22km.
Since then, myself and many others put it out there than nanos aand speed tanking were broke, plain and simple. The responce form nano guys 99% of the time.. 'adapt or die' 'move along, nothings wrong here' "you just cant pvp' ect ect ect..
The whole while never really admitting the exploit they were loving the sh#t outta was wrong, never trying to compramise and make the game better for everyone, and not just themselves.... Untill now.. NOW ALL U NANO *****ERS ARE FULL O GREAT IDEAS TO KEEP YOUR NANNOS AROUND!! ROFL!! Too little too late imo..
CCp HAS to do this, and you know it. Stop the whining and get on to figuring out which class of char you'll make in WOW when you leave... or, stfu and deal with the fact that it IS WHATS BEST FOR EVE AS A WHOLE and adapt..simple. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:13:00 -
[142]
Originally by: JVol CCp HAS to do this, and you know it. Stop the whining and get on to figuring out which class of char you'll make in WOW when you leave... or, stfu and deal with the fact that it IS WHATS BEST FOR EVE AS A WHOLE and adapt..simple.
FFS most people will straight tell you (these days) that a nano nerf is necessary... but even die hard close range blaster pilots (you know, the ones *LEAST* able to deal with nano ships) will tell you that *THIS* one sucks.
I mean, they could be biased because it's going to take blasters from being not really worthwhile to being utterly ******ed to fit... but I guess them's the breaks. Gotta nerf ACs and Blasters so that nanos don't overrun us all.
It's kindof funny - your support for the nano nerf has nothing to do with *THIS* nano nerf, except that now you get to poke fun at all the "nano" pilots complaining about it. Except that most of the people decrying this nano nerf aren't nano pilots.
I *HAVE* flown nano... but not really recently. I have my counters to them, but they're really not necessary where I live (lowsec). Really, the only thing your post tells me is that you're simply delighted to have someone else's toys taken away from them - even if it means taking away toys from the starving kid down the street too.
-Liang --
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:16:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Esmenet
Its 10 secs for any battleship, so at best its a 3 sec difference, less if you fit a plate on your ishtar. Considering that the domi is a lot more versatile and powerful and a lot cheaper there isnt really any contest.
No. If BS aligns in 10 secs an ishtar aligns in 4 secs. |
Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:43:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Esmenet
Its 10 secs for any battleship, so at best its a 3 sec difference, less if you fit a plate on your ishtar. Considering that the domi is a lot more versatile and powerful and a lot cheaper there isnt really any contest.
No. If BS aligns in 10 secs an ishtar aligns in 4 secs.
Did they shorten 10mn mwd cycles and i did not get the memo? --
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Allow me to summarize the dev blog in a much simpler way:
Dear players: F*** YOU.
Love, CCP.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:44:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: JVol CCp HAS to do this, and you know it. Stop the whining and get on to figuring out which class of char you'll make in WOW when you leave... or, stfu and deal with the fact that it IS WHATS BEST FOR EVE AS A WHOLE and adapt..simple.
FFS most people will straight tell you (these days) that a nano nerf is necessary... but even die hard close range blaster pilots (you know, the ones *LEAST* able to deal with nano ships) will tell you that *THIS* one sucks.
I mean, they could be biased because it's going to take blasters from being not really worthwhile to being utterly ******ed to fit... but I guess them's the breaks. Gotta nerf ACs and Blasters so that nanos don't overrun us all.
It's kindof funny - your support for the nano nerf has nothing to do with *THIS* nano nerf, except that now you get to poke fun at all the "nano" pilots complaining about it. Except that most of the people decrying this nano nerf aren't nano pilots.
I *HAVE* flown nano... but not really recently. I have my counters to them, but they're really not necessary where I live (lowsec). Really, the only thing your post tells me is that you're simply delighted to have someone else's toys taken away from them - even if it means taking away toys from the starving kid down the street too.
-Liang
Not the case at ALL.. The simple fact is nanos need to be fixed, and ccp IS fixing the problem. ARE megas going to suck after the nerf?/ I think not, I will still think twice in my geddon when facing one, BS to BS.. They will STILL be deadly dps monsters. How are they going to do vs ab crusiers? I dunno, neither do you. Frankly I dont care, everyone whos crying seems to be speculating ( re: blasters ), and thos crying about nannos are the selfish ones who want THEIR toys regardless of how it effects the game, point blank.
Eve was the best MMO before nannos, it will REAMIN the best MMO when they are gone..
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 19:49:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Myra2007
Did they shorten 10mn mwd cycles and i did not get the memo?
Agility is not only used for warping you know. |
Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.10 20:00:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Myra2007
Did they shorten 10mn mwd cycles and i did not get the memo?
Agility is not only used for warping you know.
Yes, i do. On the other hand the topic was warping not any other applications. So: Concession accepted. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.10 20:05:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Myra2007
Yes, i do. On the other hand the topic was warping not any other applications. So: Concession accepted.
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Skallebank
Minmatar Mentis Fidelis Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.10 21:25:00 -
[149]
the worse thing for me , is post patch my panther will be slow and weak and undergunned . where as now its just weak and undergunned. why do they have to **** every decent thing in the game.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH WHATS THAT ? |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.11 03:38:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 10/10/2008 08:52:55 Liang, Liang, poor Liang. Seems like the nanonerf discussion has brought out the worst in you. I'm going along with Lyria now.
Feel free - it's not actually the nano nerf (because I'm in favor of *A* nano nerf.. just not this one). It's that Lyria constantly tells us that every non-Amarr ship is perfectly fine no matter how horribly broken it is... and then follows it up with some complete BS reason why whatever broken thing Amarr are doing is perfectly acceptable.
I'm pretty sure if CCP screwed up and gave the 100km pulse lasers she'd call it A-Ok and make up some bullshit reason why it was fine that way.
-Liang
I find it hilarious that Lyria just *happens* to be ammar and is one of the biggest (and only) strong advocators for this nerf Awesome EVE history
Missiles ba-oom! |
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