| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Topic |
Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
    |
Posted - 2008.10.10 22:11:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: CCP Atropos
You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)
But please, continue the discussion 
Like others have said however, the Widow and such have the tier 2 bonuses, while the Sin is still gimped with the Domi power grid, and an agility bonus..
Agility bonus? This would of been just peachy when Nano-Domi's were all the rage, but that could be the single most pointless high-end ship bonus out there.
Go for something reasonable...
Ideas that might make things better for the Sin (the original reason for this thread, the fact that it's substantially worse off then the rest of the BlackOps)..
NOTE: These are all single ideas, I'm NOT saying the Sin should get all these bonuses, just one of them to replace the laughable agility bonus
- 20% Bonus to Drone Control Range per Level of BlackOps -- Takes full use of Sentry drone's ranges.
- 15% bonus to Energy Vamp/Energy Neut amount and range per level
- Copy the Lachesis Bonus -- i.e. Warp scram range bonus/sensor damp
- 5% Bonus to power grid per level and 10% bonus to large armor rep amount per level
Something along those lines, but drop the agility or make it a blaster/rail boat for crying out loud. |
Fox Ogmo
Caritas.
|
Posted - 2008.10.10 22:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Guess what this means: it's time to scrap the now-obsolete tier system. You wouldn't have this problem if you just balanced all ships in a class evenly.
...
yes yes.. lets make all the ships the same so that theres no such thing as ship type advantages, while we're at it.. lets just make one ship and make everyone use it.. that way no one is under/overpowered compared with anyone else... um no.. i personally dont consider the tier system outdated. It provides a level of flexibility with ship types, abilities and affordability.
...
You've missed Merin's point slightly, he's referring to abandoning the tiers of ships within a class (ie. distinction between tier one and tier two BCs), whereas you seem to be interpreting this as removing all classes (ie. distinction between BS and BC...)
I would be inclined to sympathise with the removal of the tier system, I reckon it actually enforces more uniformity (across the races) than it promotes diversity (within a class), and I'd be happy to see races diverge further than they are.
|
Fullmetal Jackass
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 05:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Guess what this means: it's time to scrap the now-obsolete tier system. You wouldn't have this problem if you just balanced all ships in a class evenly.
...
yes yes.. lets make all the ships the same so that theres no such thing as ship type advantages, while we're at it.. lets just make one ship and make everyone use it.. that way no one is under/overpowered compared with anyone else... um no.. i personally dont consider the tier system outdated. It provides a level of flexibility with ship types, abilities and affordability.
...
You've missed Merin's point slightly, he's referring to abandoning the tiers of ships within a class (ie. distinction between tier one and tier two BCs), whereas you seem to be interpreting this as removing all classes (ie. distinction between BS and BC...)
I would be inclined to sympathise with the removal of the tier system, I reckon it actually enforces more uniformity (across the races) than it promotes diversity (within a class), and I'd be happy to see races diverge further than they are.
I know, lets get rid of all ship design structure completely. And toss out balance as well.
Tier's are just an easy way to catagorize and organize ship types and classes. It's just a hull dude. They can give it any bonuses they want.
|
Strill
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 05:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Guess what this means: it's time to scrap the now-obsolete tier system. You wouldn't have this problem if you just balanced all ships in a class evenly.
...
yes yes.. lets make all the ships the same so that theres no such thing as ship type advantages, while we're at it.. lets just make one ship and make everyone use it.. that way no one is under/overpowered compared with anyone else... um no.. i personally dont consider the tier system outdated. It provides a level of flexibility with ship types, abilities and affordability.
...
You've missed Merin's point slightly, he's referring to abandoning the tiers of ships within a class (ie. distinction between tier one and tier two BCs), whereas you seem to be interpreting this as removing all classes (ie. distinction between BS and BC...)
I would be inclined to sympathise with the removal of the tier system, I reckon it actually enforces more uniformity (across the races) than it promotes diversity (within a class), and I'd be happy to see races diverge further than they are.
I know, lets get rid of all ship design structure completely. And toss out balance as well.
Tier's are just an easy way to catagorize and organize ship types and classes. It's just a hull dude. They can give it any bonuses they want.
Wow you managed to flame the person's suggestion and then advocate it in the same post.
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 06:39:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 11/10/2008 06:39:51
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
You've missed Merin's point slightly, he's referring to abandoning the tiers of ships within a class (ie. distinction between tier one and tier two BCs), whereas you seem to be interpreting this as removing all classes (ie. distinction between BS and BC...)
I would be inclined to sympathise with the removal of the tier system, I reckon it actually enforces more uniformity (across the races) than it promotes diversity (within a class), and I'd be happy to see races diverge further than they are.
Finally someone gets the idea. Look, this is not hard to understand:
Insurance payouts make the cost differences trivial. Yes, they do exist, but how many times do you hear someone say "you know, I really wish I could fly a Thorax, but all I can afford is this Vexor"? Not very often, except maybe your first time in a cruiser. The cost differences may have been significant back in the good old days, when ISK was hard to get and owning a battleship of ANY kind was a major accomplishment, but now it's very rarely a limiting factor.
Similarly, the skill differences are just pointless. In the modern age of implants and learning skills, the difference between levels I, II and III are near-zero. You'll spend more time flying to Jita to buy your new Drake than training your Battlecruisers skill up to fly it. And anyway, everyone who actually flies a ship often will have at least level IV in the skill if they want to be anything other than a comedy killmail. Maybe if the requirements were IV and V, it would make a difference, but 99% of the time the skill difference simply will not matter.
So what is the problem with all this? Even if the tier system is obsolete and doesn't really matter, why should we care? A couple reasons:
1) As seen in this thread, it causes problems with T2 ships. The Dominix is the best Gallente mission ship, while the Megathron is a pure PvP ship. Marauders are meant to be PvE focused, while black ops are pure PvP. So why is the Gallente black ops a Dominix, and the marauder a Megathron? Because the tier system prevents it from being the correct hull, as a Megathron black ops would have higher base costs and be "unbalanced".
2) It causes some T1 ships to be obsolete. Consider the Cyclone. It's a perfectly good idea, the shield tanking AC boat concept works pretty well for the Sleipnir, so why can't the Cyclone do the same? Because it's a tier 1 ship, and therefore lacks mid slots and gun slots. If it was balanced at the same level as the Hurricane, it would have an extra mid slot, turret hardpoint, and better base HP. And suddenly it would become an interesting alternative to the armor tanking Hurricane, instead of just being a comedy ship that nobody ever uses.
Or consider the Ferox. Compared to the Drake, it's missing a gun hardpoint, mid slot, and a lot of shield HP. Why? Are Caldari supposed to be better with missiles than rails? Hardly, the higher-tier ship in every OTHER class is the railboat. So why is the rail BC randomly weaker than normal? Because the broken tier system says so.
The solution is to just scrap the entire thing. Make all ships within a class cost the same, and balance them at the same level. Now what matters is the strategy and fitting of a ship, not the arbitrary base price, and T2 ships can be based on whatever T1 hull is appropriate for the ship strategy.
 |
Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 08:50:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
1) As seen in this thread, it causes problems with T2 ships. The Dominix is the best Gallente mission ship, while the Megathron is a pure PvP ship. Marauders are meant to be PvE focused, while black ops are pure PvP. So why is the Gallente black ops a Dominix, and the marauder a Megathron? Because the tier system prevents it from being the correct hull, as a Megathron black ops would have higher base costs and be "unbalanced".
I don't think it has been better said then this. Along with the rest of your points, this sums it up perfectly.
Devs, take note, as this is something someone should of thought of in your design meetings... |
Mirei Jun
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 10:04:00 -
[37]
Some great discussion here. The Dev tried to come in here and make what he thought was going to be a constructive statement, only to have it drive the conversation in another direction, albeit an excellent direction. But, to get back to the issue at hand, black ops and the Sin:
Any one remember an old song from Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the others. Three of these things are kind-of the same." One of the Black-Ops ships has a phenomenal black-ops bonus -an improved version of its T1 counterpart's bonus (20% per level to ECM strength). The Widow is being used in its present form, and is a force to be reckoned with. While its bonus pales in comparison to the Widow, the Redeemer also has a viable and very useful combat bonus (tracking). This brings us to the losers of the equation, the Panther, and of course, the Sin.
Although the Panther's speed could be seen as desirable, with the impending speed "adjustments" this bonus will become even more useless then it is now. The Sins agility bonus is meaningless. How about a small additional drone damage bonus? (That seems very Gallentian.) How about a bonus to drone control range? How about a tracking bonus? Pick something thats actually a viable combat bonus and change it out for the agility bonus. Or, as another option, scrap drone bonuses on the sin altogether and make it a hybrid platform with appropriate bonuses there. Try making the other three's black-ops bonuses as comparatively good as the Widow's.
Jump fuel bays will go a long way towards making Black-ops playable. However, in their current state, I imagine you will see Widows dominating the battle field with the other three rarely, if ever used (No, I am NOT saying you should weaken Widows).
On a final note, I would like to point out, Black-Ops ships were marketed as an exciting new tool in the expansion. The devs talked about them in videos and players were anxious to try them out. After their release it was quite obvious to everyone how unusable they are. This was a huge disappointment. The devs then said "We purposely made them weak so we could improve them later". I know it would be politically damaging to contradict public statements you have already made. However internally I hope you recognize the public relations mistakes, and the mistake of marginalizing something which was touted so heavily pre-release. Whether fair or not, players feel deceived.
|
Aiko Intaki
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 14:43:00 -
[38]
I've wondered since they were announced why the Dominix hull was used for the Black Ops Gallente vessel and the Megathron hull was used for the Marauder. It seemed obviously backwards to anyone who actually runs missions in a Gallente ship (read: in a Dominix).
Even on the most superficial of levels, if you presented a model of each hull to random_person_on_the_street_01 and asked which seemed stealthier.... I can't imagine anyone would choose the Dominix over the Megathron.
Definitely a fail moment on CCPs part.
|
Daelin Blackleaf
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 15:28:00 -
[39]
While I agree that making the Sins primary feature among it's class high DPS via drones was a bad idea I'd like to point out that the tier system and uniformity of hull tiers in a t2 class is tied to industry.
Removing the tier system would have quite an impact on both t1 and t2 industry.
Obviously CCP can still give the ship whatever stats and bonuses are appropriate, so the discussion is still very relevant.
[Not that the thought of a cloaking mega doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy]
|
Grarr Dexx
Amarr
The Cosa Nostra
La Cosa Nostra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 18:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Aiko Intaki
I've wondered since they were announced why the Dominix hull was used for the Black Ops Gallente vessel and the Megathron hull was used for the Marauder. It seemed obviously backwards to anyone who actually runs missions in a Gallente ship (read: in a Dominix).
Even on the most superficial of levels, if you presented a model of each hull to random_person_on_the_street_01 and asked which seemed stealthier.... I can't imagine anyone would choose the Dominix over the Megathron.
Definitely a fail moment on CCPs part.
First you frogs whine about the Imicus hull on your precious little Helios (which is supposed to be cloaked most of the time anyways), now you do the same with the flying turd. If you don't like the bonuses or how it looks, crosstrain. If all the ships in eve were the same, it would be boring, no?
 |
|
Fullmetal Jackass
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 21:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Strill
Wow you managed to flame the person's suggestion and then advocate it in the same post.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
Tiers are unnecessary and restrict ship diversity. They should be removed so ships can have roles that aren't restricted by their tier's stats.
wtf stfu noob! You want the end of the world or something?
CCP should keep tiers and give their ships whatever stats they want.
But the fact is they don't give their ships whatever stats they want.
The higher the tier, the weaker the drone capabilities.
The higher the tier, the more base hp.
The higher the tier, the higher the cost.
The higher the tier, the higher the sig radius, the lower the scan resolution, and the higher the sensor strength.
Furthermore, all the tier 3 battleships have 8 turret hardpoints, a gun bonus, and a tanking bonus. (7.5% repper/booster amount per level for gallente and minmatar and 5% resistances per level for caldari and amarr)
It's all very uniform.
Did you buy stock in megathron inc or somthing? How did this degrade from "what's wrong with black ops" to "ship tiers suck and I want my hull cause it's prettier"?
How about we get back on topic?
|
Strill
|
Posted - 2008.10.11 23:47:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Strill on 11/10/2008 23:54:31
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Strill
Wow you managed to flame the person's suggestion and then advocate it in the same post.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
Tiers are unnecessary and restrict ship diversity. They should be removed so ships can have roles that aren't restricted by their tier's stats.
wtf stfu noob! You want the end of the world or something?
CCP should keep tiers and give their ships whatever stats they want.
But the fact is they don't give their ships whatever stats they want.
The higher the tier, the weaker the drone capabilities.
The higher the tier, the more base hp.
The higher the tier, the higher the cost.
The higher the tier, the higher the sig radius, the lower the scan resolution, and the higher the sensor strength.
Furthermore, all the tier 3 battleships have 8 turret hardpoints, a gun bonus, and a tanking bonus. (7.5% repper/booster amount per level for gallente and minmatar and 5% resistances per level for caldari and amarr)
It's all very uniform.
Did you buy stock in megathron inc or somthing? How did this degrade from "what's wrong with black ops" to "ship tiers suck and I want my hull cause it's prettier"?
How about we get back on topic?
The topic got to ship hulls because a dev posted that CCP is dogmatically set on using the Tier system, and people started making posts about how that's the main thing wrong with black ops. It is on topic.
And I never said anything about prettiness. I said that the tiers enforce a standardization of ship stats among the races that's unproductive to balancing black ops while you said that they do not. I'm waiting for an answer.
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 00:00:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mirei Jun
Any one remember an old song from Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the others. Three of these things are kind-of the same." One of the Black-Ops ships has a phenomenal black-ops bonus -an improved version of its T1 counterpart's bonus (20% per level to ECM strength). The Widow is being used in its present form, and is a force to be reckoned with. While its bonus pales in comparison to the Widow, the Redeemer also has a viable and very useful combat bonus (tracking). This brings us to the losers of the equation, the Panther, and of course, the Sin.
Actually, the only reason the Widow doesn't have the worst bonus is because of CCP's poor attempt at a joke with the Sin's agility bonus. Why?
1) The Widow lacks the Scorpion's range bonus, making ECM suicide. With no range bonus, when you inevitably fail a jam, your expensive elite battleship will insta-pop. And if you trade ECM for tank, not only do you waste the bonus, but you make that failure happen much faster.
2) Thanks to the jump bridge (which will hopefully be fixed soon), the Widow can already jump Falcons, which do the ECM job infinitely better. Note that this is not because the Falcon is overpowered, it's because of the fact that recons are just plain better at the ewar job. What they lack, however, is dps. So the role of a black ops is jump-capable dps + bridge, not trying to be a battleship-size recon. With that in mind, the Redeemer has the best bonuses, and is the only black ops that is actually working properly.
|
Ashley Thomas
Kiith Paktu
Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 00:25:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ashley Thomas on 12/10/2008 00:28:33
widow is far the best atm, chances of missing a cycle are slim to none with a skilled pilot. If you dont believe me then take a try at nnam.
on the note of changing hulls, no, don't be silly. nor should the drones be lessened or removed, domi is a drone boat.
i like the idea of dropping agility for something else, something to compliment the drones preferably.
|
Strill
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 00:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ashley Thomas
on the note of changing hulls, no, don't be silly.
I don't see what's so silly about it.
Quote:
nor should the drones be lessened or removed, domi is a drone boat.
The issue is not whether the dominix is a good drone boat, the issue is whether a drone boat is a good black ops.
|
Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 01:16:00 -
[46]
considering the sin puts out the most dps of all the black ops... i really dont find exactly what all the complaints are about... widow is more useful with about 120-130 less dps than the sin.. sin is slightly less useful with more dps, the panther and redeemer fall inbetween those two for dps output. This is the standard type of balance we see through all ship classes.
|
Ashley Thomas
Kiith Paktu
Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 01:17:00 -
[47]
there's nothing wrong with it being a drone boat, it gives it an advantage over smaller ships. just change the agility bonus to something else more useful, maybe blaster range or tracking, drone control range, or mix the gallente lineup a bit by making it an ewar bs. atm caldari are the only ones with a true variety of battleships with an ewar, missile, and rail boat. gallente have... blaster boat, blaster boat, blaster and drone boat...
|
Farrah Jun
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 08:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Actually, the only reason the Widow doesn't have the worst bonus is because of CCP's poor attempt at a joke with the Sin's agility bonus. Why?
1) The Widow lacks the Scorpion's range bonus, making ECM suicide. With no range bonus, when you inevitably fail a jam, your expensive elite battleship will insta-pop. And if you trade ECM for tank, not only do you waste the bonus, but you make that failure happen much faster.
2) Thanks to the jump bridge (which will hopefully be fixed soon), the Widow can already jump Falcons, which do the ECM job infinitely better. Note that this is not because the Falcon is overpowered, it's because of the fact that recons are just plain better at the ewar job. What they lack, however, is dps. So the role of a black ops is jump-capable dps + bridge, not trying to be a battleship-size recon. With that in mind, the Redeemer has the best bonuses, and is the only black ops that is actually working properly.
Interesting point of view. I have only seen the Widow flown (with great effectiveness, I might add). I don't have the skills to fly it myself. With BS class damage and massive ECM its quite viscous in gang work (from what I have seen). However the points you bring up are quite valid and good. Perhaps we can agree that all four ships need to be looked at.
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:15:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Farrah Jun
Interesting point of view. I have only seen the Widow flown (with great effectiveness, I might add). I don't have the skills to fly it myself. With BS class damage and massive ECM its quite viscous in gang work (from what I have seen). However the points you bring up are quite valid and good. Perhaps we can agree that all four ships need to be looked at.
The problem is to get that BB class damage, you're talking about a torp fit, and that comes with two problems:
1) You have even less range than the pure ECM setup. Guess what happens to an un-tanked ECM ship at 30km when it fails a jam cycle.
2) You have to pick between BCUs and SDAs, which means you can't have both good ECM and good damage. Low damage is an obvious problem, while weak ECM not only hurts your offensive ability, but the reduced jam chances make problem #1 even worse.
The roles just conflict way too much to work together. Either the Widow needs to become a pure ECM ship with the Scorpion's range bonus, or it needs to become a torp gank ship with something else instead of the useless ECM bonus (like shield resists?).
|
Fullmetal Jackass
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 13:45:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Strill
The topic got to ship hulls because a dev posted that CCP is dogmatically set on using the Tier system, and people started making posts about how that's the main thing wrong with black ops. It is on topic.
And I never said anything about prettiness. I said that the tiers enforce a standardization of ship stats among the races that's unproductive to balancing black ops while you said that they do not. I'm waiting for an answer.
Yer right, Atropos did say you won't get a hull swap, so find another way to fix the Sin. CCP organizes ships into class and tier. I really doubt you will get them to change that, but if you'd like to try, start a new thread.
And you all wonder why ccp rarely replies on the boards.
|
|
Fullmetal Jackass
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 13:51:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Mirei Jun
Any one remember an old song from Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the others. Three of these things are kind-of the same." One of the Black-Ops ships has a phenomenal black-ops bonus -an improved version of its T1 counterpart's bonus (20% per level to ECM strength). The Widow is being used in its present form, and is a force to be reckoned with. While its bonus pales in comparison to the Widow, the Redeemer also has a viable and very useful combat bonus (tracking). This brings us to the losers of the equation, the Panther, and of course, the Sin.
Actually, the only reason the Widow doesn't have the worst bonus is because of CCP's poor attempt at a joke with the Sin's agility bonus. Why?
1) The Widow lacks the Scorpion's range bonus, making ECM suicide. With no range bonus, when you inevitably fail a jam, your expensive elite battleship will insta-pop. And if you trade ECM for tank, not only do you waste the bonus, but you make that failure happen much faster.
2) Thanks to the jump bridge (which will hopefully be fixed soon), the Widow can already jump Falcons, which do the ECM job infinitely better. Note that this is not because the Falcon is overpowered, it's because of the fact that recons are just plain better at the ewar job. What they lack, however, is dps. So the role of a black ops is jump-capable dps + bridge, not trying to be a battleship-size recon. With that in mind, the Redeemer has the best bonuses, and is the only black ops that is actually working properly.
I get the feeling they released the black ops as they did as an experiment to see what style of ship people would most like in a stealth fit battleship. Then again, maybe they just wanted each to have it's on racial flavor.
I also get the idea that they won't really be fixing them till they take a look at cloaking, local, and all that. Still it's worth talking about.
|
Fullmetal Jackass
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 14:03:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Farrah Jun
Interesting point of view. I have only seen the Widow flown (with great effectiveness, I might add). I don't have the skills to fly it myself. With BS class damage and massive ECM its quite viscous in gang work (from what I have seen). However the points you bring up are quite valid and good. Perhaps we can agree that all four ships need to be looked at.
The problem is to get that BB class damage, you're talking about a torp fit, and that comes with two problems:
1) You have even less range than the pure ECM setup. Guess what happens to an un-tanked ECM ship at 30km when it fails a jam cycle.
2) You have to pick between BCUs and SDAs, which means you can't have both good ECM and good damage. Low damage is an obvious problem, while weak ECM not only hurts your offensive ability, but the reduced jam chances make problem #1 even worse.
The roles just conflict way too much to work together. Either the Widow needs to become a pure ECM ship with the Scorpion's range bonus, or it needs to become a torp gank ship with something else instead of the useless ECM bonus (like shield resists?).
I disagree. While I don't think the Widow is a finished product, I like the damamge and ecm bonus. I like the rook too, but it has the "always primary" issue. If it had an ecm range bonus it would just be a larger falcon, which everyone is screaming to nerf. The cloak makes up for the lack of range bonus IMO. Don't decloak till the time is right. There's no targeting delay after all. As the price comes down, I think more people will start looking at the widow.
|
Ashley Thomas
Kiith Paktu
Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 19:22:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
The problem is to get that BB class damage, you're talking about a torp fit, and that comes with two problems:
1) You have even less range than the pure ECM setup. Guess what happens to an un-tanked ECM ship at 30km when it fails a jam cycle.
2) You have to pick between BCUs and SDAs, which means you can't have both good ECM and good damage. Low damage is an obvious problem, while weak ECM not only hurts your offensive ability, but the reduced jam chances make problem #1 even worse.
The roles just conflict way too much to work together. Either the Widow needs to become a pure ECM ship with the Scorpion's range bonus, or it needs to become a torp gank ship with something else instead of the useless ECM bonus (like shield resists?).
in the hands of a skilled pilot, the widow wont fail a jam. its the only black ops ship that i've seen in action so far thats halfway decent
|
|
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |