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| Author |
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Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:14:00 -
[1]
Over the last several years of playing this game i have wondered more and more why would these NPC rats be in this belt waiting for me to come and blow them up.
I wondered should they not have come from somewhere within the constellation or solar system?
Would they not be in the asteroid belt to mine.... asteroids.
So why is it that Rats sit waiting for some bored player to come along and pop them, should not they be guarding mining barges or mining cruisers that are mining mierals for their POS that is set up some where within the solar system or constellation, should they not be escorting haulers through gates or to cyno spots.
So using that logic then the types of ships you would face would depend on the infrastructure they have created. E.G. ship yards for frigates, cruiser, and battleships.
And in 0.0 even capital ships.
Have then scout out moons to mine and attack player POS.
This would give tactical and strategic reasoning for their existance in the first place.
It dosn't mean they have to be any better at fighting than they are now just have a reason to fight in the forst place and maybe initiate some also.
And if a location becomes too contentious with players then GM's can creat a NPC raid :-)
Death is not the answer only a means to an end. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:30:00 -
[2]
Personally, I'd like to see ratting moved from belts to encounter type complexes that spawn often and regularly enough to be equal to the current ratting. Those complexes could then offer the background to the rat presence.
I'd also like to see static belts moved to dynamic site spawns and such sites could then contain a mining operation or a drone infestation or just spawn the one or another hunting party but nothing in magnitude like the ratting sites.
Maybe some static encounter locations could be added. Just waypoints in space where one is likely to meet other people and/or rats. Just stuff like some asteroid formation here, a debris field there and a gas cloud or spatial distortion in between. Just scenery with a spawn chance of ships rallying up at the location to move wherever. Those waypoints would not have a visible celestial beacon but could be bookmarked normally. This would give the local residence the advantage of knowing their turf whereas intruders unfamiliar with the space would need to scan down the locals first.
This all would of course require more resources, both server and workforce wise, in a dimension that would make the implementation of such a system a expansion of its own. |
Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.10 11:38:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Abrazzar
Personally, I'd like to see ratting moved from belts to encounter type complexes that spawn often and regularly enough to be equal to the current ratting. Those complexes could then offer the background to the rat presence.
I'd also like to see static belts moved to dynamic site spawns and such sites could then contain a mining operation or a drone infestation or just spawn the one or another hunting party but nothing in magnitude like the ratting sites.
Maybe some static encounter locations could be added. Just waypoints in space where one is likely to meet other people and/or rats. Just stuff like some asteroid formation here, a debris field there and a gas cloud or spatial distortion in between. Just scenery with a spawn chance of ships rallying up at the location to move wherever. Those waypoints would not have a visible celestial beacon but could be bookmarked normally. This would give the local residence the advantage of knowing their turf whereas intruders unfamiliar with the space would need to scan down the locals first.
This all would of course require more resources, both server and workforce wise, in a dimension that would make the implementation of such a system a expansion of its own.
I hadn't thought of it in that way, but there is some sense in what you say and if you had a logical AI to the presence of the rats in that area like gaining minerals or that they have found a spawn site of ice that is not normally there or the prence of other NPC's or regular players in a location,etc then things could get very exciting 
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Tehyarec
Erasers inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.10 12:15:00 -
[4]
Current ratting is indeed dull and also indeed slightly illogical. Anything made to make it more engaging would be nice, such as more "interactivity" (I suppose the current random complexes are a step toward this, but still not nearly enough). But coming up with anything really good is hard, because for one it'd demand a lot from the servers.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.10.10 12:35:00 -
[5]
What may reduce the amount of resources needed for a location centered ratting may be a random location generator.
It'd basically throws together complexes by rolling on a number of tables and sub tables, sorted by style, type, security status and rat faction, generating scenery, structures and rat spawns.
A dedicated machine could constantly produce a pool of pre-rolled complexes that get dropped into the world as needed. This would create a sense of diversity without needing all complexes to be generated by level designers.
From this Random Complex Generator a variety could be developed that adds more dynamic to missions and exploration complexes that require a designed base for storyline purposes. It'd add a bit less predictability to the PvE activities and creates at least the illusion of variety.
A better AI that adapts its tactics to the player and reacts dynamically to their actions is something that can quickly eat up large amounts of resources. Every decision requires a pre-defined situation and reaction to that situation that the AI can recognize and tab into. Every rat would have to constantly ask the server "What's going on?" and "What should I do?". Unless the AI cycles can be run parallel to the normal server activities, the additional stress on the server would be forbidding. |
Tykkis
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Posted - 2008.10.10 12:47:00 -
[6]
eh. it's grinding. it's mandatory timesink every MMO must have. CCP could make it easier for themselves if they just made everyone press a button every sec for an hour and get the mission rewards. less bugs, less coding, less server load...
being serious. i wish i could make same isk/hour from pewpew FW or similar than i do from lvl4's. players>computer AI anyday
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Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.17 08:19:00 -
[7]
My thought was to organise NPCs like corps so the setup a POS in a constellation and defend it as a corp would and build modules relitive to the security status of the system. So in 0.0 you might find a seup in every system and battleships and occational capital ships as the setups allow.
So to clear a system players would have to kill all the POS that the NPCs had in that system, constellation and then te NPC have to build up again.
Death is not the answer only a means to an end. |
Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.10.17 10:58:00 -
[8]
NPC Pirate invasion fleets would be rather awesome. Or Empire navies flying around, for that matter. As of now, belt rats are a stand-in as per the long tradition of MMOs back to the old text-based games.
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Mephistophilis
Domination.
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.17 13:43:00 -
[9]
I don't know how hard it would be to make rats more usefull. But i've always had a beef with them, for a start they need to sort there ship fittings out and generally be a lot tougher.
I'd love to see some storyline antics by the rats, once in a while they might give a ratter a right old spanking by hotdropping a bunch of stuff on him, or maybe they'll seige your station or even better..... run a high sec rampage
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.10.17 14:00:00 -
[10]
You don't need a reason, RPing is optional.
If you really want, they are going through the belts looking for miners to kill.
This is not part of my sig.
...Or is it? |
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Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.19 01:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mephistophilis
I don't know how hard it would be to make rats more usefull. But i've always had a beef with them, for a start they need to sort there ship fittings out and generally be a lot tougher.
I'd love to see some storyline antics by the rats, once in a while they might give a ratter a right old spanking by hotdropping a bunch of stuff on him, or maybe they'll seige your station or even better..... run a high sec rampage
I think it might be a significant change in the AI script.
If a Dev happens to be reading this some input might be nice 
The whole point of the idea is to give a strategic and tactical effect and reasoning for the Rats being there.
Its good to think that they are looking for miners in the belts. But the question is where did they come from and how do they get such HUGE fllets of ships and also be so Inconsequential. If an alliance or corp had that many ships roaming around and are willing to take the losses that NPCs do the either they would be the dominant force in that region or they would be BOB 
If the AI scripts for NPCs where layed out in a similar fashion to an average alliance, with PVP, PVE, Industrial section then for 1) they would have ship layouts similar to the average for each ship class used 2)they would produce things 3) would be a pain in the neck for players operating POS in 0.0 or low sec (myself included).
4) gives opportunity to reduce NPC presence in a region by detroying their soverenty or ship building capabilities.
Death is not the answer only a means to an end. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.19 02:19:00 -
[12]
I don't think having them in belts is entirely necessary. Remember you already have cosmic anomalies which give you easy-access PVE. I'd like to see more Cosmic Anomalies and ratting replaced. They're a lot more unpredictable and interesting.
Originally by: Catharacta
My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Liranan
M'8'S
Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.10.19 03:53:00 -
[13]
How would you guys propose to do this? Have one anomaly/complex per system or per constellation? Have you ever thought of the chaos it would create if you warped to a complex and found 50 people already there trying to make some money? And then in 0.0 you fly to a complex and there's a Titan that's just doomsdayed every rat in the system.
Rats spawning at pos? So, you're sieging a pos and all of a sudden rats spawn and then the entire fleet gets wiped out because they had to split their firepower between rats (I'm assuming the rats will come in dreads) and the deathstar pos.
I see many of the posters have been in 0 for quite some time and know what they're talking about. Rats in EVE are dumb but they're no dumber than any other MMO. As was stated, rats are a way of making money. If you don't like ratting you can always mine or manufacture.
Farjung is my God
You people need to open your eyes and read threads before you mindlessly spam the New Thread link. |
Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.10.19 04:03:00 -
[14]
What is proposed here is basically what the current exploration/encounter model is based on, it is just at too small of a scale currently. They have mentioned they plan on slowly ramping it up.
I do remember back when there were NPC spawn points at random spots in systems (usually around moons or planets). All those ship-logs you get USED to point to these static spawn points. It was kinda fun to get a log, and fly 10-15 jumps to find it, and sit there blasting rats for a while. This is what the new exploration systems replaced, and it would be great, but you end up spending so much time scanning totally empty systems, that it lacks the immediate satisfaction that the belt-rats provide. The number of encounters just needs to be increased, as well as moving of a majority of belts to the exploration system. Making the game universe more dynamic will make it feel like less of a day-to-day grind.
POS Personal Storage |
Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.19 05:28:00 -
[15]
I think it would be great for NPC pirates to set up POSes on unocupied moons and have small minning operations. I agree that having pirates just sit in belts dose not make a lot of sense. It would be cooler if the pirates would hunt you down when you undock at stations. Just make the pirates seem more alive then the random bold plus signs that must be eradicated.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.19 05:37:00 -
[16]
Quote:
How would you guys propose to do this? Have one anomaly/complex per system or per constellation? Have you ever thought of the chaos it would create if you warped to a complex and found 50 people already there trying to make some money? And then in 0.0 you fly to a complex and there's a Titan that's just doomsdayed every rat in the system.
Lol? 50 people in the same system would be too many for the system to sustain even if they were just ratting. Hell, even 5 would. Anomalies don't sustain fewer people than ratting does.
All you'd need to do is maybe increase the spawn rate of anomalies...I say maybe because in many cases, there are already multiple ones in system.
Originally by: Catharacta
My CNR runs on salvager tears.
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Balor Haliquin
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.20 04:19:00 -
[17]
If you wanted to make the pirates seem real and alive then all you would have to do in the case or large fleet battles is reduce the spawns in direct relation to how many people are in system. Lets face it, if pod pilots will jump out of low sec systems when the population gets to high (assuming they are not involved in some way with the blob) then the pirate NPC should get the same hint. This might go a long way to reducing the lag issues that might occure in the system. So first reduce the number of belt spawns and then start droping the chance for complexes and other objects from spawning.
By the same token, if a system is left alone for too long it becomes a pirate haven. The pirates will start to set up their own towers and guarding them religiously. Hell they might get so brave as to start attacking the towers of players. But as soon as you squash them they go back to simply marauding the local belts. It would be also interesting to have the pirates claim sovrenty in systems if they collect enough towers. This would foec some of the mega alliances to divert resorces to protecting their own territories from pirates. No concord should have its downsides as well.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.20 11:32:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 20/10/2008 11:34:58
Rats and indeed all NPCs should indeed be 'less dumb' - however, I'm still of the view that you need to start from a perspective where the NPCs are doing something; otherwise all you're doing is sugar-coating a broken premise in the first place.
For example, today a pirate ship spawns randomly in a belt, and stays there - why? On the off-chance some idiot will happen by? Real pirates don't do that (except on gates) - the NPCs shouldn't either.
In an ideal world I'd want to see proper pirate stations in secret probable areas (since we seem to have numerous missions to blow them up repeatedly, logic dictates there must be a fair few out there) and patrols issuing from them, with scale depending on security of the system.
X3 did this well - lets have X number of pirate bases across the galaxy, which produce patrolling rats. Some rats will patrol around the sector; others will go and mine/trade; others will go pew-pew with other NPCs around; others still will go reinforce some random combat somewhere (say, yours). Pirate bases are findable and destructible, and when you destroy one, another spawns in another random location.
I would be surprised if this was that hard to add to existing exploration mechanics.
Edit: Then again, I'd like to see missions re-done in a way that has them more interactive and part of the universe rather than instanced targets, which ties into the same concept - have the stuff out there to find, and let the players do stuff with it, rather than serving it up to us as if to say 'here, your daily dose of shooting stuff that doesn't shoot back very well'.
Originally by: Tykkis
eh. it's grinding. it's mandatory timesink every MMO must have.
Whilst I know you were being slightly ironic, I wanted to point out that timesinks aren't mandatory - they're a cop-out for MMO designers that either a) went for a content-based model but can't push content out fast enough or b) failed to design an engaging non-content-based game design (EVE falls mainly into the latter).
In short, MMOs don't need timesinks if they're well-designed. On the other hand, you should quite easily be able to spend months if not years in an MMO having fun.
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
You don't need a reason, RPing is optional.
Nice to see the trolls are back in town.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.10.20 11:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kashon Rea
Over the last several years of playing this game i have wondered more and more why would these NPC rats be in this belt waiting for me to come and blow them up.
They are patrols i suppose, although some do have haulers with them.
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Mephistophilis
Domination.
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.10.23 13:36:00 -
[20]
Some good responses here, but i'm supprised more people aren't putting there thoughts in tbh.
Come on CCP get your npc's to fight back once in a while and kick some ass!
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.23 14:41:00 -
[21]
Nice ideas and I fully support them.
The only open issue - which will be fixed afaik (?) - is that the rats are still shooting me even when I have good standings with them. |
Banzai06
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.23 14:56:00 -
[22]
tldr, only read the first four posts.
Exploration based ratting is a terrible idea. 0.0 ratting is already not as profitable as empire mission running, so you want to make it worse. Exploration sometimes isn't even worth it unless you get a good plex.
Better idea: Fix Angel/Domi drop tables.
I have always thought that the rats were in belts mining.
In NPC space you see rats everywhere, at POS's, stations and basically where ever they feel like being.
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Patty Loveless
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
You don't need a reason, RPing is optional.
If you really want, they are going through the belts looking for miners to kill.
this... they are pirates, and they are pirating...
Play this game long enough and you will actually run into RL players who don't play much better than the rats. 
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Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.27 09:03:00 -
[24]
The whle point is, if NPC's are at a loation then they should be doing something related to that location.
So rats at Asteroid fields should have some mining happening using appropriate ships with some guards.
Rats sitting at Gates are hunting players or guarding / scouting for transports.
If the NPCs actually have an active purpose rather than cannon fodder then they will be more fun.
Death is not the answer only a means to an end. |
Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.10.27 10:02:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mithfindel on 27/10/2008 10:05:07
As someone noted, there are "miner rats", better known as hauler spawns. Otherwise, I hope that with the rumoured belt revamp the content will be moved to an exploration-based model, where more sensible environments can be created. Say, instead of some Serpentis hanging out at an asteroid field, they could be placed around some shady warehouse floating in space. Not sure if it's technically possible, but some exploration locations could be used to add pirate agents into Empire space, so that you could do missions to the pirate factions.
Saying "exploration sucks" when basically the same content as now can be added via exploration (ideally discoverable via the onboard scanner) is in my opinion male bovine excrement. The difference is that via exploration-generated locations there can have more variance, as well as scaling the encounters such that instead of the things being always the same there might be different rat types on different exploration locations. If done cleverly, it might even momentarily discourage macroing.
If the evil pirates are afraid that they can't find easy targets from belts, then better have a prober with you. Or if preying on afk target, nothing changed: Use the directional scanner at planets to find if there are targets close, when found probe the location (of the anomaly) out with the onboard scanner, and there you go.
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