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URGENT fix needed for FW

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Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.10.10 14:20:00 - [1] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 10/10/2008 14:22:51 Cue Angry disgruntled/-illusioned Rant I love the size restricted sites in FW as it gives some fun engagements as you move to attack or defend a site without getting hot-dropped, RR-Blobbed etc while in a smallish ship This whole mechanism is annihilated by speed, and to a lesser poor NPC AI's. All sites, yes that's right .. ALL sites can be speed tanked by a single T1 frigate. This creates a scenario that is completely risk free as the frigate can just warp out if threatened. This failure in the system favours an attacking party Solution (until permanent fix can be thought out): Disable MWD use in FW sites The AI related issue that needs attention is the complex NPCs lack of ability to fathom that a target moving away from the capture point is not a threat, too often they chase after a target 2-400km distant. Solution: Reduce the size of grid to a 200-300km square and have NPCs target a new hostile when lock is lost (italic as they are less than worthless currently as they sometimes target a friendly when losing lock). These two issues (speedtanking and AI) are the ones that currently skew FW balance in favour of an attacker far too much. Many other issues of lesser import are still abound such as adequate rewards, NPCs not firing/spawning on neutral presence
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:59:00 - [2] CCP said to this that NPCs are not supposed to defend a site. They are supposed to help the defenders a bit, but the actual work has to be done by the defending players themselves. What is frustrating to me is actually not that two players can take a plex, but that two player can roam through the hostile backyard and just contest a bunch of systems. Then someone of the defenders has to go through them and decontest them again. Which leads to funny situations such as no plexes in that system for a long time, etc. - it's mainly irritating. What makes it worse is, as you say, that you can do it without much danger at all. You can sit over 80km from the warp-in point. Cloakers get decloaked by the acceleration gate. So you can watch your scanner and be 100% safe in the plex. I posted quite early in FW some observations and ideas on this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=823335 The three ideas from that post that I think would solve most of the problems here are: - Allow warping to an acceleration gate at a distance (to allow cloakers sneaking into a plex) - Move capture points closer to drop-out points (to allow non-snipers to be dangerous) - Add webifier towers in non-minor plexes to make it more difficult for frigs to "lure away" NPCs, or give NPCs an MWD to catch up with inties Btw, you can "speed-tank" any plex with a single ship. Take aggro from distance, move 150km out, wait until the NPCs are at 50km from you. Move to capture point, wait until NPCs do damage again, move back to 150km out, draw them back there, etc. Watched a NOmen do that from my Rapier, but had a frig-catcher fit, not an anti-cruiser fit, and when I got back from refitting, the NOmen saw me on scan and left. :-/ Quote: Solution (until permanent fix can be thought out): Disable MWD use in FW sites Sorry, but only an Amarr can get THAT idea :-D Please no. MWD is essential for a lot of ships - both Minmatar and Gallente blasterboats rely on MWD speeds due to range and tracking. Amarr and Caldari ships usually have long range and can survive without MWD.
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:03:00 - [3] I don't like te "remove the mwd from plexes" part as it creates too much of a difference between a plex fit and a pvp fit, and I don't think that's a good thing. But there are other possible fixes: 1)Introduce the tackling variants of NPC we see in missions in the higher rated plexes. You won't speedtank a plex in a t1 frig when the opposing NPC fleets include a pair of inties that web you and (to be discused, I dunno what to think of this) scramble you. Let's face it, NPC frigs are absolutely useless if they don't tackle (as would be player controlled frigs for that matter, dps is neglectible in the bigger scheme), so make them fulfill a frig role ... I'm not saying we should turn plexes into deathtraps, especially minor ones, but major and unrestricted should not be cappable by a lone frig (t1 or t2) 2)Other solution: bring a size requirement to cap bigger plexes : ie, you need at least a BC at the button to cap it. (rough idea, has to be adjusted) 3)Other solution: make capping conditions a bit trickier (ie. NPC above a certain size have to be popped before the button can be capped) The idea is not to make destroying all NPC necessary as it's kinda boring, but just a few select ones, with a reasonable tank that an undersized ship would have trouble breaking without seriously exposing itself Other AI tweak: Make NPC switch targets to engage the ones capping the plex in priority, targets out of the control zone are dealt with later. Problem, no matter what AI you use, unless it's absolutely brilliant, it will be exploitable by players.
Vathar The Wings of Maak	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Arkady Sadik CCP said to this that NPCs are not supposed to defend a site. Agreed on this, but they should be able to deal with ridiculously undersized threat. we're not asking the NPCs to get rid of an enemy gang, but if a whole squad of "whatever the local army is called" including Battleships and whatever cannot protect a plex from a single capsuleer in a t1 frig, it seriously undermines the system!
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:00:00 - [5] /Still Angry Ta-Da, the main in case you hadn't figured it out. The fact that you MAAK guys send an interceptor into a supposedly heavily defended site like a major installation first pretty much proves my point and invalidates most counter arguments. There is nothing in the AI that is able to handle a nano-boat orbiting 150-200km with all aggro. I am all for the NPCs not being there to defend but to aid, so give them the bloody chance ... Adding tackler NPCs will do absolutely nothing since there is no module (NOS/Web) that can affect a target 100+km distant which is what the aggro holder commonly has. The addition of insane range webifier towers or ultra-fast web frigs could work ASSUMING the AI knows what to web and the NPCs can actually destroy the target. This is not doable currently as the ranges are as stated 150-200km which takes forever for the NPCs to cross. MWD using NPCs won't do squat. Your own "plexing" interceptors all do in excess of 10k/s from what I have seen and there is simply no NPC that gets close to that (Spider Drone IIs do but they have no weapons and are easily destroyed). I'll agree that removing MWDs from FW sites would render a some PvP setups pointless, but do you really consider the 3k/s Rifter a PvP Ship? 95% of the fittings used by frigates I have killed have had one purpose and one purpose only .. to speed tank complex NPCs (the amount of Gallente ships I have seen can be counted on one hand so please don't use blaster boats in your argument). Major sites SHOULD be death traps. They should require you to commit HACs/BC/BS or a swarm of smaller ships as appropriate, not a t1 speed-freak and a random buddy .. all NPC tanks can be easily broken by a cruiser doing 2-300dps so adding a few "must kill" NPCs wont do. While I would love to think that the upcoming speed balancing solves this, I have some serious doubts. Like Arkady pointed out, it's a simple matter for a single frig to get aggro and retreat to range, move to cap - rinse and repeat .. this will still be doable post-patch. The solutions easiest to implement would be: Remove MWD from FW complexes until permanent solution is found. Make capturing a site dependent on the destruction of ALL NPCs. Declare speed tanking a FW site an exploit, akin to MWD'ing into plexes where the gate won't allow the ship Personally I doubt it is possible to tweak the AI to allow it to do anything worthwhile against it, as it's probably tied to the generic rat AI, so other options MUST be looked at.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.20 22:12:00 - [6] Originally by: Veshta Yoshida /Still Angry Ta-Da, the main in case you hadn't figured it out. The fact that you MAAK guys send an interceptor into a supposedly heavily defended site like a major installation first pretty much proves my point and invalidates most counter arguments. Calm down. All answers in this thread have agreed with you. Quote: but do you really consider the 3k/s Rifter a PvP Ship? Why, yes? Thanks for asking, it's a very good PvP ship. We recommend it to all of our rookies until they can fly inties. It's called "tackler", the primary role of frigates in a fleet. Though 3km/s is a bit slow for a speed-fitted Rifter. I think you are attacking the wrong target here. The problem is not fast ships (and I mean "fast ships", not "ludicrous speeds" - I'm looking forward to the speed rebalancing). The problem is the plex mechanic. The stated goal from CCP is that NPCs aren't there to stop people from capturing a plex. That is, from CCP's point of view, the NPCs could just as well not exist. They're there to give the defenders a little bit of help, and (probably primarily) to provide some kind of thing to do while you take a plex and no hostiles show up. Now you can disagree with this design decision. Then first start out with what you actually want before you go about declaring half of all useful PvP setups and the cornerstone module of pvp setups of two races as "bad" and want to ban them from most of FW. My personal goals for the NPCs in plexes would be to require some effort to capture larger plexes. Minor plexes can, for all I care, stay empty, or spawn one target drone every minute to get something to do while twiddling thumbs. Cruiser plexes can remain as they are, too. It's perfectly fine that two frigs can cap a cruiser plex. Now, for Major plexes, you should need a bit more. And certainly more for unrestricted ones.
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.21 10:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Calm down. All answers in this thread have agreed with you. Yea I know, but calming down before posting ranting threads does nothing for my inner calm, better to get it out before it festers :) I am with you in regards to the problem being the complex mechanics, but I fear the options that CCP has to solve it are limited so I am proposing things that "should" be fairly easy to implement. And no, the issue IS with fast ships (3k/s+)- the ludicrous speed ones are just easier to speed tank in. The problem is that the AI does not switch aggro at all but will happily pursue a target miles away posing no threat, since scripting AI is tricky business at best I don't think that tweaking it can resolve the problems in any reasonable amount of time. The AI is also the reason why the long awaited speed rebalancing won't do much as it actually speeds up a majority of the t1 frigs, exasperating the problem. That minors and mediums are 'easy' to complete is as it should be, two properly fitted and flown frigates can indeed clear a medium, what should not be possible however, is for two frigates to capture such a site without firing a single shot or taking any damage. The reason (as I understood it back in the day) why MWDs were taken out of DED spaces and missions was that people enjoyed 100% risk-free ISK, the FW situation is very similar just without the ISK. Eve is based on the premise that most/all gains should involve some risk. Originally by: Arkady Sadik Now you can disagree with this design decision. Then first start out with what you actually want before you go about declaring half of all useful PvP setups and the cornerstone module of pvp setups of two races as "bad" and want to ban them from most of FW. And by what justification should the other half (my half that is) be banned from the self same arena? It works both ways, which is why I am no longer focusing on the MWD removal as the solution. I am actually more partial to the "clear complex to capture" solution nowadays I have been doing the plexing thing for quite a while so have been confronted with every scenario more than once. My calm has just been disturbed lately by the steady stream of purely speed fitted frigates able to capture any site and run to dock or to another system when challenged - the whole roaming in the backyard thing you mentioned.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.21 11:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 21/10/2008 11:08:40 Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Originally by: Arkady Sadik Now you can disagree with this design decision. Then first start out with what you actually want before you go about declaring half of all useful PvP setups and the cornerstone module of pvp setups of two races as "bad" and want to ban them from most of FW. And by what justification should the other half (my half that is) be banned from the self same arena? Properly fitted Executioner easily goes above 4km/s. :-) Quote: I have been doing the plexing thing for quite a while so have been confronted with every scenario more than once. My favorite scenario was the guy with Republic standing of over 5.0 in an Amarr corp who was plexing in cloakers with a friend. He just sat in the middle of the NPCs who did not attack him because of the standings, waited till the timer was at 5s or closer, cloaked, his friend decloaked, capped the plex before NPCs did anything, and both warped out. Highly amusing, that, really. Deemed as "working as intended", too :-) Quote: My calm has just been disturbed lately by the steady stream of purely speed fitted frigates able to capture any site and run to dock or to another system when challenged - the whole roaming in the backyard thing you mentioned. Yes. While I'm more annoyed at the unproportional difficulty in "cleaning up" after such a group these days, not so much that they can do it. :-/
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:48:00 - [9] I agree that it would benefit FW to remove the ability to speed-tank FW complexes. And yes, I have personally captured major complexes solo in a non-faction T1 frig (Vigil). It takes a long time and is not 'efficient', but it's silly that it's possible at all. And that two T1 frigs can capture any complex both easily and quickly is even more ridiculous. I'd vote against banning MWDs. I think the answer lies in one or more of the following: 1) As suggested by the OP, the AI could use some work. Change the AI for FW NPCs so that they actively defend the beacon, refusing to move out of some reasonable range of the beacon and switching targets to any ship that threatens capture, especially when their current target is out of their weapon range. Restricting movement makes snipers invulnerable, so add a small amount of long-range EW to compensate, or restrict movement on only a portion of the NPCs. 2) Add turrets that are fairly light on damage, but have high enough range and tracking that they can hit speed tankers (and snipers) at medium and long ranges. This will largely remove speed tanker's effectiveness while impacting more conventional ships lightly. Note that neither of these is difficult to counter with even a small amount of 'combined arms', but help prevent one or two ships from walking over the complexes with little or no risk. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Becq Starforged Change the AI for FW NPCs so that they actively defend the beacon, refusing to move out of some reasonable range of the beacon and switching targets to any ship that threatens capture This. While you're at it, move the warp-in point closer to the capture point. 60km is ridiculous, especially if you can sit 20km behind the capture point in major plexes. The capture point being closer means you actually have to watch a bit on what comes in. Also, allow warp-ins to the acceleration gates at distance so you do not have to cross two 0km decloaking choke points with any ship. One is enough. This also gives the chance (chance, not guarantee) of getting a cloaked ship into the plex, which again means you have to be a bit careful when capturing with possible hostiles in local. Currently, you can sit 80km off the warp-in point of a plex, capturing with no problem at all, and are basically guaranteed that any hostiles that get into the plex will show up on your scanner long before they even drop out at 80km, so whoever is inside a plex can capture the plex half-afk without being worried at all.

waruiushiro	Posted - 2008.10.21 19:07:00 - [11] Edited by: waruiushiro on 21/10/2008 19:10:12 Killing MWD in plexes would be an easy fix to the problem, sure. However, it would kill the plexing participation of most militia members since we grumble about it fairly often enough as it is, even though we do understand its (potential?) importance in the war at large. Maybe just meet halfway and slow down the speed of MWD inside a plex so it matches afterburner speed. Interceptors could still speed tank, but not frigs(?). Most importantly, it would reduce speed tanking without causing a huge inconvenience to people who would rather PvP and can't be asked to switch out their propulsion mod. And here's another half-baked idea... make warping out of plexes impossible. Have an exit accel gate that's pretty close to the entry point. Maybe it spits you out on the original warp in point at the entry gate. This allows those inside a plex to still come to the aid of people who got caught by the oversized enemy fleet that's camping the entry gate. It also allows an easy, looping patrol style for defense of both the gate and warp-in point. Most importantly, though, it would force those taking the plex to exit through any newly arrived defenders, as long as the warp-in beacon and exit gate are close enough to each other. That kind of scenario would be a solid deterrent to tanking in interceptors only, as they get shot and possibly webbed on the way out. I mean, if you can't warp into deadspace, how the hell can you warp out of it?

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