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Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.04.03 22:29:00 -
[181] - Quote
evil kneevil wrote:Zirise wrote:Signed.
The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life. If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain? Obvious projection is obvious.
Considering that you personally said "WELL IF CSM MEMBERS SCREW UP THEY GET TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES (harassment lol HTFU o7o7o7) IRL" I think we can safely assume that this proposal is completely reasonable, lobby our CSM delegates about it and hopefully see it in place for CSM 8.
Thanks for your support! |
Zirise
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
108
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Posted - 2012.04.03 22:41:00 -
[182] - Quote
evil kneevil wrote:Zirise wrote:Signed.
The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life. If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain? Obvious projection is obvious.
In what way do RL names add any sort of accountability that doesn't involve some level of RL harassment?
The only way they add to 'accountability' is by the hanging threat of defamation or RL threats. That's just not tolerable.
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Jonas Xiamon
56
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:17:00 -
[183] - Quote
This information may be easy to get a hold of, but it shouldn't be any easier because of CCP. Supported. I usally write one of these and then change it a month later when I reread it and decide it sounds stupid. |
Della Monk
the boltzmann experience Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
25
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Posted - 2012.04.04 02:08:00 -
[184] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go? If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?
Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse. Supported |
Joyelle
State War Academy Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.04.04 04:15:00 -
[185] - Quote
I see goonthugs everywhere but with that aside, I support this proposal. |
Prince Kobol
505
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Posted - 2012.04.04 08:21:00 -
[186] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.
I am going to presume that you are talking about Ankhesentapemkah here, if not then I apologise in advance.
Ankhesentapemkah - Eva Jobse was banned for a breach of the non-disclosure agreement (NDA). CCP confirmed this a number of times.
If you do a google search of Ankhesentapemkah you will find a lot about her personal life very quickly.
This was information that she put out there of her own accord. She was not shy about being a member of the CSM and if anything publicly promoted this fact as much as she could.
After her ban she stated that she did not agree with decision and would reveal why on her blog, she never did.
Considering Eva's background she should of known better then most that when you break a NDA it is only ever going to end in a butt hurt load of pain.
The only thing I will give her is she never complained that the decision taken by CCP could have real life consequences.
In truth she couldn't as it was her decision promote herself at every opportunity that she held this role, from her own personal website to her personal blog.
The same should be said of kittens.
Whilst I do not agree with everything that has happened and been said, it has been Alex's decision to promote the link between his real life and the character The Mittani. He has never been shy about the fact, from various articles he has written for various sites, comments made on various forums etc.
He has actively promoted himself to the same if not greater degree as Eva did.
By doing this he has to accept that there is going to be consequences, mainly being that you leave yourself open to idiots making personal attack against you external to Eve, outside of CCP's control.
You can not openly court the media and then complain if people attack you.
Everybody who runs for the CSM is aware that your real name will be made public, if you accept this then you also have to accept that any actions you take as part of the CSM can be, and most likely be linked to your real name.
The issue is magnified some what due to the Character of The Mittani and the Goons. Any fool would realise that being in this position greatly increases the chance that at some point some idiot will make personal attacks against you.
Throw on top the sheer amount of self publicity he gives himself I am only surprised this did happen sooner.
Again I do not agree with everything that has happened and been said, but Alex is an intelligent adult who was well aware of the possible consequences of the decisions he has made. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.04 18:25:00 -
[187] - Quote
Della Monk wrote:Cearain wrote:I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go? If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?
Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse. Supported
Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda?
Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1457
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Posted - 2012.04.04 18:29:00 -
[188] - Quote
Cearain, you're trying to make this proposal into something it's not. Are you really so dense that you can't understand it?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zirise
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
108
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Posted - 2012.04.04 19:04:00 -
[189] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Della Monk wrote:Cearain wrote:I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go? If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?
Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse. Supported Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda? Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities?
I have seen many pictures come out from fanfest of popular players in their natural form. I still have no idea who they are, where they are from etc.
You're grasping at straws.
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Prince Kobol
509
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Posted - 2012.04.04 20:32:00 -
[190] - Quote
Zirise wrote:
In what way do RL names add any sort of accountability that doesn't involve some level of RL harassment?
The only way they add to 'accountability' is by the hanging threat of defamation or RL threats. That's just not tolerable.
They shouldn't is the answer.
However, in regards to both Kittens and Ankhesentapemkah, I knew there real names long before they become members of the CSM due to their own self promotion.
Neither have what you would call being shy telling the world about themselves.
Does that give people the right to say the kind of things that were directed at Kittens, of course it doesn't, but if they are willing to tell the world about themselves, then you have to expect at some point some idiot is going to say things that are reprehensible.
The risk is greatly magnified when you promote yourself like kittens has done over the years.
Once again, I want to stress that I do not agree with any of personal attacks that have been aimed at Alex, but you have to accept there are consequences and risks with this kind of self promotion.
Alex is supposed to be a successfully lawyer in real life, therefore a very well educated person. Am I to believe that he was not aware that his actions, his self promotion, would risk something like this happening?
Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?
Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?
I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.
As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1457
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Posted - 2012.04.04 20:35:00 -
[191] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?
Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?
I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.
As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.
If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Prince Kobol
510
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:08:00 -
[192] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?
Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?
I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.
As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.
If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems. -Liang
I was totally unaware what happened to Jade and again, I find it a totally reprehensible act, yet I also find it funny how many members of Goonswarm were on the forums saying what was said about Alex to be terrible, yet them themselves are just as bad.. double standards here I think....
As for Darius, again the goons have a major hand in this, even thou CCP have stated clearly a number of times that Darius has not broke the NDA, they continue to accuse him.
As for Larkonis Trassler, before this post I had never heard of him. Did a quick google search and found he was kicked off the CSM for using insider information to make isk. None of the articles I found including CCP's official statement mentioned anything regarding NDA.
I am not saying the goons are at fault, but its seems with the examples you have given that 2 out of 3 go back to the goons.
Perhaps because of the past actions of members of the goons, this is why he was attacked in the manner he was.
Again I am not condoning it, two wrongs do not make a right , however you can not be surprised when people treat you then same way you treat them.
If CCP do decided to no longer release the real life names of the CSM members, fine by me.
Lets be honest here, it makes no difference whether we know their rl names or not, personally I would not.
What I would like to add is, I do not know if Alex was a member of the Goons or was personally involved, or was in charge at the time those personal attacks were made on Jade, but if he was, then I would sincerely hope he now has a better understanding of what it is like being personally attacked and maybe, just maybe, he makes sure that whilst he is leading the goons, he does his best to make sure it doesn't happen again to anybody else. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:14:00 -
[193] - Quote
Zirise wrote:Cearain wrote:Della Monk wrote:Cearain wrote:I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go? If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?
Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse. Supported Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda? Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities? I have seen many pictures come out from fanfest of popular players in their natural form. I still have no idea who they are, where they are from etc.
But their identities will be shared and can be published - and ccp can do nothing about it. The idea of trying to keep the identities of people who are going to show up in person at live events secret is pretty odd.
I mean if they cancel the fanfest csm meeting this might make some sense. But even there are ccp devs supposed to always call the men who play "seleen" and "Elise" "Seleen" and "Elise" (or "Miss Randolf") when they are in a meeting, or at a pub? Are they going to make up names?
Whether *you* know who they are is irrelevant. If the concern is some crazy wants to find mittani or his wife they easilly can. The purpose of the idea is not to prevent people who really don't care about who is on the csm from finding out their names. The idea is to prevent someone who is nutty enough to care allot from getting this information. That wont work.
Ok so it probably won't work but are there are there any disadvantages?
Not really. Just a few very minor ones as far as I can tell:
1)CSM is not an in game council. They are real people who are discussing possible changes to a game. Electing an ingame character to represent you in the real world sort of blurs this distinction. Mittani suggested he couldn't keep it straight who he was at the alliance meeting. I don't believe him but he did claim(and I suppose some believed) he couldn't keep it straight what "hat" he was wearing. This would only worsen that blurring problem.
2) Similar to the first problem we often hear csm members claim they are qualified for the csm due to their real life jobs. How can these claims be verified? Is it all just in game bullshit? Mittani claimed his experience as a lawyer would help him and some people believed him. How are voters supposed to verify this. Is it going to become like spying in eve were people can lie all they want and its just part of the game?
3)Are we admitting that this game has so many truly evil people that unlike every other game/hobby/sport our csm members need to be treated as though they are in a witness protection program?
4) Its still unclear what the rules would require. If someone calls someone by their real name at fanfest and someone else overhears it, should they be reprimanded - assuming they have an account? Seems like a bunch of silly drama over nothing to me.
But really I don't even really understand the rules now. For example I don't know what EULA Mittani violated. He gave the ingame name of someone - was that the violation? Or was it because he encouraged people to go after him in game - isn't that what merc corps do? I really don't know what specific term of the EULA he violated. But whatever. I don't really care.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:23:00 -
[194] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain, you're trying to make this proposal into something it's not. Are you really so dense that you can't understand it?
-Liang
If its so easy to understand what you are proposing, why not answer the questions I pose? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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The Elusive Tekitsu
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:23:00 -
[195] - Quote
/signed
Some yadda yadda reiterated reason as to why I support this when others have clearly done so and/or better than I could've said so myself.
Wha, wha, what? Didn't hear, see, mind, or cared to pay attention. Sleep is awesome |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1459
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:23:00 -
[196] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: I was totally unaware what happened to Jade and again, I find it a totally reprehensible act, yet I also find it funny how many members of Goonswarm were on the forums saying what was said about Alex to be terrible, yet them themselves are just as bad.. double standards here I think....
That appears to have happened early 2008. Darius JOHNSON (CCP Sreegs) gave the 2009 Goonswarm Fanfest presentation as the CEO of Goonswarm. At the time, The Mittani was the Goonswarm Spymaster, but I'm not sure how much of a hand he had in any of that.
Notably, I contacted The Mittani to see if I could arrange to have that page taken down and it turns out that Goons don't actually own that site, but it is a rip of their internal wiki from early-mid 2008. There's several other really bad crossovers to RL trolling from that time, too. Aside from Darius III, I'd say that I haven't seen that sort of campaign from Goons in a long time.
Quote: As for Larkonis Trassler, before this post I had never heard of him. Did a quick google search and found he was kicked off the CSM for using insider information to make isk. None of the articles I found including CCP's official statement mentioned anything regarding NDA.
I didn't say that Lark broke the NDA - I said he was removed for misconduct. Which is linked to his real life name. Which could have similar RL implications.
Quote: Lets be honest here, it makes no difference whether we know their rl names or not, personally I would not.
What I would like to add is, I do not know if Alex was a member of the Goons or was personally involved, or was in charge at the time those personal attacks were made on Jade, but if he was, then I would sincerely hope he now has a better understanding of what it is like being personally attacked and maybe, just maybe, he makes sure that whilst he is leading the goons, he does his best to make sure it doesn't happen again to anybody else.
I'd say that the game appears to have matured quite a bit since most of the major meta gaming scandals - and no matter what we as an Eve Community have proven ourselves to be just as Goonish as the old Goons, if not worse. Again: we have shown that we simply cannot be trusted with this kind of RL information.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:24:00 -
[197] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain, you're trying to make this proposal into something it's not. Are you really so dense that you can't understand it?
-Liang If its so easy to understand what you are proposing, why not answer the questions I pose?
Line your questions out in one single post in a concise format.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:28:00 -
[198] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Yep, sounds reasonable.
It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)
Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.
What do you mean forums ingame "etc"?
Are we able to post it on failheap challenge?
What about other mediums that have nothing to do with eve?
When massively reports the names of the csm members (because the csm showed up at a public event like fanfest) will all employees of massively have their eve accounts banned?
If people make their identity public by showing up in person with others it is sort of hard to unring the bell.
Is ccp supposed to police the internet for any mention of somones name and then try to track down who released it and then see if they have an eve account?
And why are they doing this again?
Is it because someone somewhere said something stupid to the guy who was telling people, who said they were considering ending their lives, to go ahead and kill themselves? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:31:00 -
[199] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Prince Kobol wrote: Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?
Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?
I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.
As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.
If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems. -Liang
I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences.
Why is this bad?
This seems good I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules.
If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1459
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:34:00 -
[200] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences. Why is this bad? This is good right? I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules. If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?
You are confused. I'm not complaining about consequences for breaking real life contracts. I'm talking about how the CSM candidates and members having real life information available implicitly makes accusations of breaking the NDA a matter of RL importance. I'm talking about RL defamation, character assassination, and harassment derived from the RL information that's just given out for no reason at all.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:34:00 -
[201] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain, you're trying to make this proposal into something it's not. Are you really so dense that you can't understand it?
-Liang If its so easy to understand what you are proposing, why not answer the questions I pose? Line your questions out in one single post in a concise format. -Liang
I gave the questions in a clear format feel free to number them if that makes it easier for you. But most of the questions came in a context so I will not take them out of the context or try to recreate the context for you. Sorry. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:42:00 -
[202] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote: I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences. Why is this bad? This is good right? I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules. If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?
You are confused. I'm not complaining about consequences for breaking real life contracts. I'm talking about how the CSM candidates and members having real life information available implicitly makes accusations of breaking the NDA a matter of RL importance. I'm talking about RL defamation and character assassination derived from the RL information that's just given out for no reason at all. -Liang
It should be a matter of real life importance. Its a real life NDA and real life accusations of its breach by real life people. This is a good thing because csm is a group of real life people who sometimes run based on their real life accomplishments.
If ccp wrongly defames anyone for violating the nda then they would be subject to the laws of the relevant jurisdiction.
I agree with your first sentence. I am confused what your issue with this is.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:45:00 -
[203] - Quote
Cearain wrote:What do you mean forums ingame "etc"?
CCP's forums are covered by CCP's EULA and TOS. This is readily apparent.
Quote: Are we able to post it on failheap challenge? What about other mediums that have nothing to do with eve?
It's worth mentioning that CCP has banned people for posts on 3rd party sites that claimed EULA/TOS violations. However, at this point you're basically talking about a systematic campaign of harassment and RL character assassination. I honestly can't believe I'm having this conversation with you. What in the hell makes you think its any more ok to do this about CSM members than it is about you or me?
Quote: When massively reports the names of the csm members (because the csm showed up at a public event like fanfest) will all employees of massively have their eve accounts banned?
If people make their identity public by showing up in person with others it is sort of hard to unring the bell.
Its worth pointing out here that media, twitter, and blog coverage of Fanfest have almost universally referred to people by their in game names. I suspect there's a lot of reasons for this, but the biggest is probably because RL names are kinda meaningless to us.
You seem to be attacking the proposal on the basis that this is an attempt at security through obscurity, but I'm not sure that's a reasonable thing to do. Ultimately, there is A LOT of information that's out there but isn't easily accessible - if its accessible at all. Just because I showed up and had lunch with a member of VETO last year doesn't mean that suddenly everyone on the internet knows his real name and where he lives.
Quote: Is ccp supposed to police the internet for any mention of somones name and then try to track down who released it and then see if they have an eve account? And why are they doing this again?
They aren't, and I'm very confused as to why you keep talking about systematic campaigns of RL character assassination, defamation, and harassment as if it's a reasonable thing for people to be doing.
Quote:Is it because someone somewhere said something stupid to the guy who was telling people, who said they were considering ending their lives, to go ahead and kill themselves?
No, there's a lot of reasons that the current proclamation of RL information isn't necessary - or wise.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2012.04.04 21:47:00 -
[204] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote: I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences. Why is this bad? This is good right? I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules. If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?
You are confused. I'm not complaining about consequences for breaking real life contracts. I'm talking about how the CSM candidates and members having real life information available implicitly makes accusations of breaking the NDA a matter of RL importance. I'm talking about RL defamation and character assassination derived from the RL information that's just given out for no reason at all. -Liang It should be a matter of real life importance. Its a real life NDA and real life accusations of its breach by real life people. This is a good thing because csm is a group of real life people who sometimes run based on their real life accomplishments. If ccp wrongly defames anyone for violating the nda then they would be subject to the laws of the relevant jurisdiction. I agree with your first sentence. I am confused what your issue with this is.
You are confused. Again. I'm not talking about CCP accusing people of breaking the NDA. I'm talking about PLAYERS accusing people of it. Here in Eve, the propaganda machine plays a particularly center role in crushing your foes - and systematic campaigns of in game character assassination are absolutely expected. But people go a bit far sometimes with those campaigns, and can cause irreparable harm when needlessly linked to someone's real name.
Seriously, Jade Constantine and Darius are pretty well perfect examples of why we should not be proclaiming RL information just for ***** and giggles.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
729
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Posted - 2012.04.04 22:30:00 -
[205] - Quote
I think people are missing the point of Liang's proposal. A tl;dr of it is:
Quote:Currently, CSM candidates have to announce their real life identities and locations to the Eve public. As recent events have shown the Eve public will not handle this information in a mature manner, it is proposed that future CSM candidates do not have to publicly reveal their RL identities.
That's it. No more, no less. These are not any things included in the proposal:
- CCP not knowing the candidates' names. CCP has every interest in the RL identities of the CSM, for purposes of NDA, making sure the community is not being deceived by one guy with multiple characters, etc.
- Making it EULA-illegal to mention someone's RL identity. By all means, if you want to talk about some Bob Smith from New York, or to be on real first-name basis with your corpmates, feel free. RL harrassment remains illegal, though.
- CSMs can't tell anyone their name. CSMs can tell their RL identities to anyone they want. The proposal simply means that they do not have to tell the whole internet publicly.
- Liang's secret agenda to get onto the CSM. Ultimately whether you trust a CSM or not is (hopefully) based not on whether their last name is "Smith" or "Adams" or "Petrusson". It's based on their views and trustworthiness in game and as a player. If Liang, or Mittens, or Chribba decides to run for CSM with a no-name alt, that's perfectly fine: no credibility means no election success.
- No accountability. It is perfectly legal to endlessly harass the CSMs in game, to blast them on forums and news sites, and (gasp) even to not vote for them in the next election. It is not legal to threaten them IRL, or to verbally or physically assault them. Liang's proposal makes the latter illegal behavior harder to achieve, and doesn't do anything at all to hamper the former. No legal accountability is removed.
Seriously. I'm starting to think most people can type but not read or think, and that only helps solidify Liang's argument that the Eve community is not worth being trusted with RL details. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
230
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Posted - 2012.04.04 22:53:00 -
[206] - Quote
Signed |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:55:00 -
[207] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:I Liang's secret agenda to get onto the CSM. Ultimately whether you trust a CSM or not is (hopefully) based not on whether their last name is "Smith" or "Adams" or "Petrusson". It's based on their views and trustworthiness in game and as a player. If Liang, or Mittens, or Chribba decides to run for CSM with a no-name alt, that's perfectly fine: no credibility means no election success.... Trustworthiness "in game"? Surely you jest. Mittani got the most votes in the history of csm due to him being trustworthy in game?
Real life careers and skills have come into play in past elections. Seleene, mittani and pretty much all candidates have at least mentioned what they do and tried to spin it as to why that means we should vote for them. How much of an impact did these claims have? I don't know. But it comes up. Real life skills are important for csm members.
If this proposal works players will have absolutely no way to investigate the accuracy of the players claims about this. Perhaps that means players won't get elected unless they do indeed give their real names. In that case this proposal won't change anything.
Again I don't really care that much. There are allot of odd players here. CCP promotes the game as a way to pursue unhealthy grudges against others. I mean the one ad had a guy plotting for months or even years to avenge the loss of his cruiser that probably cost a dollar. Thats not normal healthy human behavior. In that ad the odd player gets his revenge in game. What if his in game plan failed? We are left to wonder what that sort of person does then?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.05 02:10:00 -
[208] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote:What do you mean forums ingame "etc"? CCP's forums are covered by CCP's EULA and TOS. This is readily apparent. Quote: Are we able to post it on failheap challenge? What about other mediums that have nothing to do with eve?
It's worth mentioning that CCP has banned people for posts on 3rd party sites that claimed EULA/TOS violations. However, at this point you're basically talking about a systematic campaign of harassment and RL character assassination. I honestly can't believe I'm having this conversation with you. What in the hell makes you think its any more ok to do this about CSM members than it is about you or me? -Liang
Why is posting someones name on a forum such as failheap "character assassination?"
Your just getting a bit looney with your concerns about "character assasination."
And what is so wrong with real life laws that protect real life people? There are laws to protect people in real life and there are laws to protect free flow of information. The free flow of information is often important so that people can make informed decisions in an election.
Your proposal won't prevent people from giving their name if they want. It just makes it so people don't have to give their name. So i don't really have a problem with proposal. I think the whole proposal is just overly dramatic. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.05 02:18:00 -
[209] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote: I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences. Why is this bad? This is good right? I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules. If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?
You are confused. I'm not complaining about consequences for breaking real life contracts. I'm talking about how the CSM candidates and members having real life information available implicitly makes accusations of breaking the NDA a matter of RL importance. I'm talking about RL defamation and character assassination derived from the RL information that's just given out for no reason at all. -Liang It should be a matter of real life importance. Its a real life NDA and real life accusations of its breach by real life people. This is a good thing because csm is a group of real life people who sometimes run based on their real life accomplishments. If ccp wrongly defames anyone for violating the nda then they would be subject to the laws of the relevant jurisdiction. I agree with your first sentence. I am confused what your issue with this is. You are confused. Again. I'm not talking about CCP accusing people of breaking the NDA. I'm talking about PLAYERS accusing people of it. Here in Eve, the propaganda machine plays a particularly center role in crushing your foes - and systematic campaigns of in game character assassination are absolutely expected. But people go a bit far sometimes with those campaigns, and can cause irreparable harm when needlessly linked to someone's real name. Seriously, Jade Constantine and Darius are pretty well perfect examples of why we should not be proclaiming RL information just for ***** and giggles. -Liang
Again i don't know what you are talking about with Jade. But Darius had some unknown people on the internet accuse him of breaching a contract. To the extent they had good evidence to support their claim then Darius may and perhaps should have real life consequences. To the extent they had little or no evidence to support their claim Darius does not have real life consequences. Real Life is not that bad. The CSM are a bunch of thirty something people who can take care of themselves. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1462
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Posted - 2012.04.05 02:31:00 -
[210] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Why is posting someones name on a forum such as failheap "character assassination?"
Your just getting a bit looney with your concerns about "character assasination."
And what is so wrong with real life laws that protect real life people? There are laws to protect people in real life and there are laws to protect free flow of information. The free flow of information is often important so that people can make informed decisions in an election.
Your proposal won't prevent people from giving their name if they want. It just makes it so people don't have to give their name. So i don't really have a problem with proposal. I think the whole proposal is just overly dramatic.
The entire context of this conversation is based around the RL ramifications of using someone's real name. You continually make statements like:
Cearain wrote: Again I don't really care that much. There are allot of odd players here. CCP promotes the game as a way to pursue unhealthy grudges against others. I mean the one ad had a guy plotting for months or even years to avenge the loss of his cruiser that probably cost a dollar. Thats not normal healthy human behavior. In that ad the odd player gets his revenge in game. What if his in game plan failed? We are left to wonder what that sort of person does then?
How in the **** do you expect me to take your comments? You are shifting goalposts like a ************ here and I'm about a quarter inch from blocking all your posts as being from an obvious troll.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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