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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1462
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Posted - 2012.04.05 02:32:00 -
[211] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Again i don't know what you are talking about with Jade. But Darius had some unknown people on the internet accuse him of breaching a contract. To the extent they had good evidence to support their claim then Darius may and perhaps should have real life consequences. To the extent they had little or no evidence to support their claim Darius does not have real life consequences. Real Life is not that bad. The CSM are a bunch of thirty something people who can take care of themselves.
Stop troll poasting long enough to read the thread at least.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
315
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:19:00 -
[212] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote: Why is posting someones name on a forum such as failheap "character assassination?"
Your just getting a bit looney with your concerns about "character assasination."
And what is so wrong with real life laws that protect real life people? There are laws to protect people in real life and there are laws to protect free flow of information. The free flow of information is often important so that people can make informed decisions in an election.
Your proposal won't prevent people from giving their name if they want. It just makes it so people don't have to give their name. So i don't really have a problem with proposal. I think the whole proposal is just overly dramatic.
The entire context of this conversation is based around the RL ramifications of using someone's real name. You continually make statements like: Cearain wrote: Again I don't really care that much. There are allot of odd players here. CCP promotes the game as a way to pursue unhealthy grudges against others. I mean the one ad had a guy plotting for months or even years to avenge the loss of his cruiser that probably cost a dollar. Thats not normal healthy human behavior. In that ad the odd player gets his revenge in game. What if his in game plan failed? We are left to wonder what that sort of person does then?
How in the **** do you expect me to take your comments? You are shifting goalposts like a ************ here and I'm about a quarter inch from blocking all your posts as being from an obvious troll. -Liang
It means I am a reasonable person and acknowledge some reasons for your proposal even though I think it is mostly based on undue drama.
But in the end I guess I sort of wish ccp wouldn't promote the game as something for people who are not healthy enough to simply get over the loss of a spacepixel cruiser. That would be one way to address the issue I raise.
Your solution is to sort of just to accept that the people who play this game are so unhealthy ccp shouldn't even publish the names of the csm candidates for fear they will be attacked. Anything is possible in life. So yes it can possibly happen. But I think you are being overly dramatic with this stuff.
I would prefer that ccp encourage healthy people to play the game instead of just taking the line that no one in this game should ever know your real name or you are likely to be attacked. Its just a difference of approach.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Seamus MacMartin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:23:00 -
[213] - Quote
Signed.
CCP, don't reveal Real Life names of CSM candidates. This should increase the personal safety of the CSM member and limit liability for any persons concerned.
CSM candidates as players can reveal their RL names any time they want anyway.
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Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
80
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:26:00 -
[214] - Quote
You're the only man on that sinking ship Cearain, 07 -á |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
231
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 07:25:00 -
[215] - Quote
evil kneevil wrote:LOL!
Kudos to The Mittani for remaining a true Internet Spaceship Spy Guy. He has the balls and resoursefulness to turn even his curent sh*tty situation to the advantage of Goons in the future.
1. Get your real life adress (which is easy to find anyway) posted anonymously. 2. Get one of your henchmen to threaten raping your wife on EVE radio. 3. Get another one of your henchmen (Liang the OP) to spin this into a crybaby story that victimizes Mittens himself. 4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm. 5. ????!!!! 6. PROFIT!!!1
I am not nor will I ever be a Goon henchman. Liang just hit the nail spot on. Also I would like to see your so-called proof for those allegations else ToS 2 is directly applicable to you.
You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)
Stop hiding behind an alt. Or are you just so darn afraid of what the bad Goonies might do to you ingame?
I post my anti Goon stuff with my main. The worst that can happen is I that I need to be carefull as whom to trust in the game. But that has been a reality already since 2004. So nothing new under the sun. They might blob me? Heck, they wouldn't be the first and won't be the last to blob me. They might troll me? Roflmao. Yeah right, I care.
And for your information. The Mittani would never EVER pull his wife into this kind of crap and most certainly not in a manner like you claim. That alone should get you at the very least a 30 day ban. We will see how the report will work out for you. |
Prince Kobol
514
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Posted - 2012.04.05 08:55:00 -
[216] - Quote
The only thing I will add in regards to kittens is that whether CCP posted his real name or not, people would still be well aware of who is due to his own self promting.
The same can be said for Eva Jobse.
Whilst I have no issue with CCP no longer publishing the real names of future CSM candidates, CCP can not have a blanket ban on their real names being announced on the forums if the a CSM, such as kittens or Eva, decided to release that information on external sites.
If they chose to do that, they then have to expect the possible consequences of that action.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
316
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:01:00 -
[217] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote: Again i don't know what you are talking about with Jade. But Darius had some unknown people on the internet accuse him of breaching a contract. To the extent they had good evidence to support their claim then Darius may and perhaps should have real life consequences. To the extent they had little or no evidence to support their claim Darius does not have real life consequences. Real Life is not that bad. The CSM are a bunch of thirty something people who can take care of themselves.
Stop troll poasting long enough to read the thread at least. -Liang
Ok I read about what Jade wrote. Yes indeed what he describes is exactly the reason why I would prefer not to give my real name. Basically some people - goonswarm - take this game way too seriously. I mean its not Jades alliance that is going to be doing the same crap he describes from goons. For the most part everyone in the game thinks what goons are doing is the mark of being a loser. But there they are being promoted by ccp.
What he describes is why I am not necessarilly against the proposal.
But here are couple of points:
1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction.
But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support.
Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO.
I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers.
I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control.
2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
316
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Posted - 2012.04.05 15:12:00 -
[218] - Quote
Banderlei Shiiba wrote:Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.
Don't think of it as caving, think of it as asking why the hell that information is even public in the first place.
Is there any other game, sport, or hobby where democratically elected representatives have thier names kept secret?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
731
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:14:00 -
[219] - Quote
Cearain wrote: [...] unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program.
What other game do you know of that has democratically elected representatives for its playerbase who get insider access to developer resources?
Frankly, it feels a bit naive that you don't believe that out of hundreds of thousands of players there would be plenty of immature asshats, with some even willing to act out that asshattery IRL. The CSMs can take very controversial stances on issues, and they need to be able to hold those stances without fearing for their personal safety. The spirit of the game inspires no holds barred behavior, and this proposal would help keep that behavior in game (where it is appropriate) rather than letting it spill over IRL (where it is not).
Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
316
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:26:00 -
[220] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Cearain wrote: [...] unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program.
What other game do you know of that has democratically elected representatives for its playerbase who get insider access to developer resources? Frankly, it feels a bit naive that you don't believe that out of hundreds of thousands of players there would be plenty of immature asshats, with some even willing to act out that asshattery IRL. The CSMs can take very controversial stances on issues, and they need to be able to hold those stances without fearing for their personal safety. The spirit of the game inspires no holds barred behavior, and this proposal would help keep that behavior in game (where it is appropriate) rather than letting it spill over IRL (where it is not).
What does access to developer resources (which csm really doesn't have) have to do with anything? Just about every major game, sport and hobby has amature associations with many with elections for offices. They all have controversial issues. This idea would be absurd for them.
The spirit of all games and sports is to try to win within the game. Why does EVE seem to attract so many losers that are eager to go outside the game? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Prince Kobol
515
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:43:00 -
[221] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
But here are couple of points:
1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction.
But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support.
Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO.
I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers.
I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control.
My personal opinion on why Eve attracts people who like to scam, love the whole meta-gaming aspect, back stabbing, stealing, and many other things which you might call negative aspects is most likely because there is no other MMO where you can these things.
You sell a product on its uniqueness and Eve's is the fact that you can do things as well as many other things.
I also would also like to add that people who you would describe as idiots, asshats etc, are not unique to Eve, for from it, but the major difference is in other MMO's they can only have a very limited effect on your game play, in Eve they can have a major effect on your game play.
Cearain wrote: 2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.
I understand where you are coming from. The problem is whether CCP and CSM decided to no longer give out their real names, I can see it making very little difference.
At some point, with Eve being the game it is, the information would get out very quickly one way or another.
For me that is the real issue.
Lets say Hypothetically CCP did not release the names of the CSM members. Both Ankhesentapemkah and Kittens real name would have still been used simply because they both put the information out their numerous times of their own free will.
So because they have done that, can CCP realistic ban his name from being mentioned on the Eve Forums without looking ridiculous?
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
731
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:43:00 -
[222] - Quote
Cearain wrote:What does access to developer resources (which csm really doesn't have) have to do with anything? Just about every major game, sport and hobby has amature associations with many with elections for offices. They all have controversial issues. This idea would be absurd for them.
The spirit of all games and sports is to try to win within the game. Why does EVE seem to attract so many losers that are eager to go outside the game? I'm not comparing it to RL sports and hobbies as there everyone uses their real identity. Compare this to other online communities, like Reddit. I wouldn't trust my RL details with any of those guys, because people turn into something else when given the anonymity they get behind a pseudonym -- be it an Eve avatar, or a Reddit username. The game being playable behind this mask from the privacy of your own home means that it is far more accessible to people with few ideas of social acceptability of certain behaviors. All of this is also compounded with the atmosphere of Eve, which is competitive to the point of cutthroat adversarialism, to make it a much more toxic environment to give away RL details in than, say, your local fencing club. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
316
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:06:00 -
[223] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Cearain wrote:What does access to developer resources (which csm really doesn't have) have to do with anything? Just about every major game, sport and hobby has amature associations with many with elections for offices. They all have controversial issues. This idea would be absurd for them.
The spirit of all games and sports is to try to win within the game. Why does EVE seem to attract so many losers that are eager to go outside the game? I'm not comparing it to RL sports and hobbies as there everyone uses their real identity. Compare this to other online communities, like Reddit. I wouldn't trust my RL details with any of those guys, because people turn into something else when given the anonymity they get behind a pseudonym -- be it an Eve avatar, or a Reddit username. The game being playable behind this mask from the privacy of your own home means that it is far more accessible to people with few ideas of social acceptability of certain behaviors. All of this is also compounded with the atmosphere of Eve, which is competitive to the point of cutthroat adversarialism, to make it a much more toxic environment to give away RL details in than, say, your local fencing club.
Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen letGÇÖs try to hide from it.
Many groups now are organized over the internet. I played chess for a few years - mostly over the internet. People are very competitive and often socially awkward in that game. Yet I didn't think that by giving my name out I would end up with people sending faxes to my workplace along the lines of what Jade describes from Goons.
Yes for some sports games and hobbies you show up in person and are seen in person (some youGÇÖre not) but the csm shows up in person too. So it would be especially odd to still try to maintain that anonymity.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
731
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Posted - 2012.04.05 16:23:00 -
[224] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen letGÇÖs try to hide from it. We're saying both of those things. It's like saying that you won't put up with crime in your city, and at least want to make efforts to stop it, but in the meantime you also refuse to abstain from walking down dark sketchy alleyways. The former is proper action; the latter is just prudence, as the problem will likely not be solved 100% -- at least, not in the short term.
The names of CSMs may get out anyway (leaks, friend telling a friend telling a friend, etc), and that's when it's important for us to not stand for the crap some people do when they take rivalries outside of the game. However, preventive measures to not get to that point are prudent (at least, until some sort of change happens in the community).
Cearain wrote: Yes for some sports games and hobbies you show up in person and are seen in person (some youGÇÖre not) but the csm shows up in person too. So it would be especially odd to still try to maintain that anonymity.
I'm sure they won't maintain the in-game personas and names in person. But that's 12 (supposedly) trustworthy people knowing your name, rather than thousands of nerd-raging baddies who take an internet spreadsheet game too seriously.
When meeting in person and collaborating, a real name is useful to better know the person you're dealing with. In the CSM election though, the RL name of candidates is largely irrelevant. I don't care if The Mittani's name was Alex or Bob or Jean-Pierre, and frankly it's not my business to care about that. I don't see how it's the business of any other Eve player, either. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1901
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:32:00 -
[225] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Cearain wrote: Again i don't know what you are talking about with Jade. But Darius had some unknown people on the internet accuse him of breaching a contract. To the extent they had good evidence to support their claim then Darius may and perhaps should have real life consequences. To the extent they had little or no evidence to support their claim Darius does not have real life consequences. Real Life is not that bad. The CSM are a bunch of thirty something people who can take care of themselves.
Stop troll poasting long enough to read the thread at least. -Liang Ok I read about what Jade wrote. Yes indeed what he describes is exactly the reason why I would prefer not to give my real name. Basically some people - goonswarm - take this game way too seriously. I mean its not Jades alliance that is going to be doing the same crap he describes from goons. For the most part everyone in the game thinks what goons are doing is the mark of being a loser. But there they are being promoted by ccp. What he describes is why I am not necessarilly against the proposal. But here are couple of points: 1) This proposal only treats the symptoms not the cause. It says this game is has so many real life losers that unlike every other game I know of, ccp has to basically treat our democratically elected csm members as if they are in a witness protection program. So this proposal is a step in that direction. But I would ask ccp to explore why it is that this game is so unique in the percentage of losers its attracting that your proposal is garnering such great support. Are they marketing/promoting the game as a game for shmarmy losers like the people who are likely to do that to jade? Eve is a great game I am glad there are scams and all sorts of people playing it but do we have to celebrate everytime someone profits from the most base lie? Great ingenious scams from guiding hand yes: great stuff. Putting regular ravens on contracts and calling them navy ravens again and again and again - its not really a great thing for the game IMO. Simple lying for personal gain, not so great IMO. I doubt most people who play the game are constantly scamming people. Yet eve gives this image. This game has so much going for it why pigeon hole the game as a game for weasels? The single shard, the complexity of the economy, the real loses that can translate to cash and makes pvp exciting. I don't know that any of these things would come to mind from non eve players before eve would be perceived as a game that celebrates weaselly back stabbing. And yes indeed we end up with a high percentage of real life losers. I guess I would much prefer that instead of putting a bandaid on this ccp actually addressed why it is that this game has gotten to the state where it even has to consider these sorts of measures. Some things are out of their control but some things are in their control. What are they doing about the marketing and information that is in their control. 2) Jade said all this happened to him because he had to give his name to be on csm. Well is he really sure this would be the answer. (In fact Jade said this would have to go further than your proposal. You agreed in the thread but did not add that to the actual op. That is why there is some confusion about what you are proposing.) I mean lets assume he didn't have to give his name. Lets further assume he could run for csm and actually get elected without giving his real name. Now there would likely be goons on the csm. Would he always use and allias when talking with them and everyone in iceland? No one would be able to identify him by seeing him? No one in his alliance would get butthurt and tell someone else his real identity? I don't know perhaps this would work, but it seems awefully convoluted.
Just want to say this is a pretty damned good post. And yes, it is very important we don't lose sight of the cause of the problem (which is lunatics using people's RL details to try to bully their way to an ingame "victory" they are not capable of gaining with gamplay alone.)
Neither I nor any other eve player should have to put up with having my rl dragged through the mud because I am in-game enemies with the serious internet spaceship "goonswarm" SA crowd.
To a large degree CCP have a responsibility in this. They could (and should) have reacted more decisively when example of rl harrassment have occured and they could certainly have worked harder to differentiate genuine Eve shennanigans (in game) from the kind of taudry Something Awful forums style OOC harrassment that the game has lately become known for.
I do recognize that supporting this proposal is a kind of admission of defeat (ie accepting that CCP is unwilling to control the Goonswarm abuses against real players so the players themselves need to be anonymous)
But *shrugs* to be quite honest life is too short to be explaining to one's bosses that the obscene photoshopped pictures arriving by company email are because some basement-dwelling nerds in America are taking internet spaceship wars too seriously.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:17:00 -
[226] - Quote
It's a matter of revealing True Names to people who are hiding behind pseudonyms.
This is an asymmetric situation and leads to abuse.
I'd like someone to come up with an example of such an asymmetric situation that *hasn't* been abused. |
Prince Kobol
518
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:05:00 -
[227] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
To a large degree CCP have a responsibility in this. They could (and should) have reacted more decisively when example of rl harrassment have occured and they could certainly have worked harder to differentiate genuine Eve shennanigans (in game) from the kind of taudry Something Awful forums style OOC harrassment that the game has lately become known for.
Before I start I do not condone anything that has been aim at yourself Jade, nor some of the things that were aim at Alex.
CCP are in a very difficult position when things are said and done which are outside of their domain.
In game then yes, CCP have a responsibility, however outside of the their domain what realistic can they do?
All I can say is that those who do such reprehensible acts are nothing but cowards in real life and are not worth a second of your time.
Going slightly off topic, I would love to see somebody from Goonswarn explain how they find what has happened to you funny and how they can be a part of an organisation which allows this kind of behaviour.
I either expect to see no answer or something of the lines of "You always get a few bad apples and we can't control what people say" which to me just a cop out. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1901
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:27:00 -
[228] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: Before I start I do not condone anything that has been aim at yourself Jade, nor some of the things that were aim at Alex. CCP are in a very difficult position when things are said and done which are outside of their domain. In game then yes, CCP have a responsibility, however outside of the their domain what realistic can they do?
Zero tolerance for people linking RL pictures and contact details in game or on these forums. Zero tolerance for ooc bullying and metagaming against the PLAYER, rather than the character.
If we have another Smoske or Lady Scarlet situation in Eve online then heads need to roll immediately and brutally so the lesson gets learned by the SA crew that if they don't learn a minimum standard of respect for their fellow players they don't get to play at all.
And of course some more backbone in general when talking on the big 0.0 blocks. I think most people would agree that Mittani should have been permabanned from the CSM for what he did. Actually making that judgment would have done much to symbolize CCP's discouragement of ooc attacks and anti player metagaming/bullying. The current rather silly compromise means we're going to be having these same discussions a year from now when Mittani tries to run for CSM again.
Prince Kobol wrote: All I can say is that those who do such reprehensible acts are nothing but cowards in real life and are not worth a second of your time. Going slightly off topic, I would love to see somebody from Goonswarn explain how they find what has happened to you funny and how they can be a part of an organisation which allows this kind of behaviour.
Well through the grapevine I generally hear "its nothing to do with me / I don't control the wiki/email/hosting/server/whatever/" It is the old defense of "it was somebody else in the swarm wot did it - I just laughed at it."
Prince Kobol wrote: I either expect to see no answer or something of the lines of "You always get a few bad apples and we can't control what people say" which to me just a cop out.
Yeah its a cop out. But I guess these guys don't join up with an online bullying community to demonstrate strength of character.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
71
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Posted - 2012.04.05 19:16:00 -
[229] - Quote
This has been the primary reason I've never considered running for CSM. Having any of my real life information associated with my in game information would fundamentally change the way I would be able to play the game comfortably. I have pissed off other players in game enough that they threw a fit and claimed they would hunt me down irl... I am sure most have been on the receiving end of messages like that before. The anonymity of "being" a character in Eve allows me to shrug and laugh it off. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1901
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Posted - 2012.04.06 02:42:00 -
[230] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:This has been the primary reason I've never considered running for CSM. Having any of my real life information associated with my in game information would fundamentally change the way I would be able to play the game comfortably. I have pissed off other players in game enough that they threw a fit and claimed they would hunt me down irl... I am sure most have been on the receiving end of messages like that before. The anonymity of "being" a character in Eve allows me to shrug and laugh it off.
I'd actually rather like certain goons to try and "hunt me down" in real life. Would be an interesting face to face discussion.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
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Hroya
28
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Posted - 2012.04.06 04:27:00 -
[231] - Quote
Yeah sure, good proposal. I'll support it.
Not like i care who you are anyways. It's what you accomplish to enhance the game for me anyways. And as to the encounters at ccp. I may be socially misfunctionate or less eliquent but imo it would work perfectly fine to just talk on a firstname basis. It's not all poshy formal crap anyways. It's about a couple of people, csm and ccp alike, to talk about a game and how to better it.
You go your corridor but. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
167
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Posted - 2012.04.06 07:41:00 -
[232] - Quote
This discussion is purely academic, IMO, because even if CCP decided to stop providing the CSMs personal details, this information will get known sooner or later one way or another. Therefore we should be talking about how things should be dealt with once this information is abused. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
316
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Posted - 2012.04.06 12:33:00 -
[233] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Cearain wrote:Ok I agree with your position to some extent. Internet communities tend to be less controlled due to anonymity. But this proposal seems to take us even more in that direction right? I mean instead of saying we as a community of players and game owners will not stand for the crap Jade allegedly had to put up with from goons we seem to be saying yeah that will happen letGÇÖs try to hide from it. We're saying both of those things. It's like saying that you won't put up with crime in your city, and at least want to make efforts to stop it, but in the meantime you also refuse to abstain from walking down dark sketchy alleyways. The former is proper action; the latter is just prudence, as the problem will likely not be solved 100% -- at least, not in the short term.
Ok I can agree with this but what efforts are they making to stop it. They and we as a community seem to be encouraging the groups that commit the "crimes" The community is constantly raving about how wonderful goonswarm and mittani are. So is CCP! I mean come one how stupid are we. We are encouraging those who do this **** and then we complain that it happens and want new rules to protect us. To stick with the crime analogy its like the governement (CCP) is puting out pr pieces for the worst criminals and and people watching it are sending fan mail to the criminals, but then they complain that crime is increasing.
And by the way this topic is not about in game scams or in game treachery. The only real concern I have is the stuff that goons does. I mean sure some murder or something over a game is always possible but I don't really think there is substantially more chance of that in eve than any other sport/game or hobby. But the stuff Jade complained - we all know this happens. Mittani even spoke about how goons did it to some other lawyer who was a player and if I recall he was saying he didn't want to give his real name before he retired because of this. What do we and ccp do? Well CCP and the players celebrate the same people who do this crap.
As to what ccp can do (beyond not publicly promoting groups that they are pretty sure do this) I agree that may be difficult. I mean now you can simply read posts by jade and he will be followed on these forums by goons trying to defame him in real life. So yeah now we can clearly see it is the goons. But if ccp did start to crack down it woudl simply move underground. There would just be alt accounts made doing the same thing. So again I'm not sure an explicit rule needs to be made wich can't be enforced. It may be better to let groups like goons be open about their out of game asshattery so we as a community can clearly identify who it is. But ffs don't keep celebrating the groups that do this.
Yes people join goons and come into the game from goons. But also other people tired of eve because of the crap they pull. Whether this proposal is passed or not I don't really care. But what I would like is the fact that this proposal even gets so much support to be a wake up call for ccp and the community that we shouldn't be promoting groups like goons and others that pull this out of game crap.
As far as ingame scams and treachery I dont think the game mechanics should change at all. However constantly marketing the game as a game for weasels is a bit disappointing. Perhaps just perhaps all the claims that I am an ******* in game but not out of game aren't really factual. Perhaps some people like playing an ******* in game because well they *are* assholes. There are other very nice features of the game besides being able to back stab friends. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Vampy bat
Prussia Group Meracom
15
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Posted - 2012.04.06 17:34:00 -
[234] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: So with all of this in mind, I believe that the CSM white paper should be amended in such a way that the CSM candidates (and eventual CSM members) real names and countries of origin are not given to the player base as a whole - but strictly to CCP. The real life information of current CSM members is already available, but that's no reason for future members to potentially be put in similar real life situations.
We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information and this proposal is meant to help our upcoming CSM candidates - those whose real names aren't known yet. Maybe even people like you.
-Liang
I would agree to this for any other game but EVE being EVE I don't think it would even be in the best interest of the candidates to remain anonymous to the broad community. If that happens we'll be voting for ingame characters and not for real people. For instance I voted for Alex Gianturco for the CSM, but I would never vote for The Mittani.
I mean, I can see a difference and I know others can too. But I also know most can't and that's a shame. And in the end I think that The mittani and really everyone who plays this game have very often contributed to blur the line between ingame character and RL personality and perhaps trying to sharpen and define that more clearly could be helpful. However, to be honest, I think a breathalyser test before any EVE player speaks publicly at a CCP sponsored event could go a long way. |
Moe Tard
BLUE Bed and Breakfast The Big Blue
0
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Posted - 2012.04.06 21:25:00 -
[235] - Quote
Not putting one's RL name out there and instead going only by your in-game name is not the same as being anonymous: it's pseudonymity, and it's more than good enough for CSM elections, where one ought to be judged on their EVE-related credentials and good (or bad) name.
If some CSM candidates feel it can help their campaign (and they aren't worried about possible consequences), they should be allowed to reveal their RL name, but surely it shouldn't be an obligation, as it discourages those who want/need to maintain some level of separation between their RL private/work life and EVE hobby from running, and in most cases this information is of no benefit to the voters or the CSM as a whole.
Copypasta from SBOI, because it sums up my thoughts on the matter.
Quote:[...] I don't like much that the CSM members have to divulge their meatspace ID to the whole intarwebs, starting with the rabid EVE fanbase.
My argument is simple, CSM is not a job, you get in the seat on a part-time, extracurricular basis, and on the merits of your in-game persona (in the loosest meaning of in-game, including OOC/meta stuff, obviously). Furthermore, nobody expects you to shed your in-game affiliations for the duration of your CSM mandate (contrary to what CCP employees are supposed to do). In short, you're elected as a player and mainly for who you are in (and around) the game.
Thus, I don't see any benefits for the community or for the election process in divulging the CSM candidates/members out of game ID to the general public, and since the potential for trouble is obvious, it is a no-brainer that it should be up to the individual CSM delegates to decide whether they feel comfortable getting out of the closet in that way.
Some may object that the CSM role is a public one, and it is likely that any CSM delegate's face (and other body parts) could end up plastered across the intarwebs as a result of partaking in meetings, fanfest events and other photo shoots or alcohol-fueled embarrassing tapes. Maybe so, but then again, if all there is to tie to these images is a spacenerd nickname, and one is not a public figure in his/her non-EVE activities, the odds are pretty good some separation can be maintained (if one chooses to).
CCP will still know who CSM delegates are, on account of their filling the plane and hotel tickets reservations, and they can therefore ensure nobody is entering under three different nicknames into the election.
As far as I can tell, the current rule only prevents people who are mildly wary of being stalked and harassed by mouthbreathers over in-game grudges from running for CSM, with no discernable upside for CCP, the CSM delegates or the community at large. [...]
I'm too old for this shipGǪ |
Don Temujin
Mothers of EVE
0
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Posted - 2012.04.09 12:49:00 -
[236] - Quote
Seconded. FWIW: compare with many CCP employees keeping their RL names from the public and going by CCP {whatever} instead (at least until they have to give a video interview or FanFest presentation. It seems clear CCP groks some of their employees prefer to keep some level of privacy (within practical limits), so why not extend the same courtesy to CSM delegates, who may have another primary job and reputation to care about ?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á [H.L. Mencken.] |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.04.11 01:23:00 -
[237] - Quote
Definitely not the best idea making the CSM's real info public. |
Kale Eledar
Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji
23
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Posted - 2012.04.15 20:29:00 -
[238] - Quote
Liang, a well thought out proposition, as always.
/signed The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
124
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Posted - 2012.04.16 08:19:00 -
[239] - Quote
I always thought it was a bit weird myself and saw no need for it. We are talking about the internet here. Even CCP covers most employees real identities up with CCP YourNewNameHere. Given, not all of them enjoy that luxury all the time but it is there for a reason.
Not all of us would threaten or harm anyone on the internet for any reason but there are those who do and those who will. The internet is also such a place that it is very easy to be paranoid.
Personally I applaud the CSM for having the balls to stick their names out there. All benefits aside, it's still a risky move. Given the representation the playerbase of EVE provides for itself on more occaisions than not, maybe too risky. Who am I kidding, it's always too risky.
Honestly with the amount of hacking and tracking out there, I don't think hiding your name is enough anymore and I'm near the point where I believe the only thing you can do is unplug from the internet. Seriously, when are they going to get some decent software to protect peoples computers?
Given everything they have and how simple such a task should be, you'd think they'd have done it already. Of course, that would prevent the government and law enforcement from snooping too, and that's probably why they haven't. Microsoft could easily have built this into their operating systems by now if they had wanted to. They haven't of course, because they like looking too.
Err.. that is.. supported.
Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
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