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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Larg Kellein
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 -
[2071]
Hmmm, several sides to this, in my opinion:
1) You really can't in any degree of good faith expect to receive a service you aren't paying for. Score one for CCP.
2) CCP have in the past replied to "so long, EVE, real life is forcing a break on me" post with words to the effect of "don't forget to set a long skill, see you when you can come back", thus encouraging ghost training. It has also been in the player guide, an official CCP documentation of game features, not bugs. It has also been in the game since the beginning, and they have certainly had the technology to fix it, as the Chinese server does not ghost train.
3) Using "fairness" and "energy" to describe skill changing in this way: "This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not." Are you kidding me? Time and effort to click "train skill". And those actively playing gain standings and isk, those ghost training do not. There just isn't an ingame advantage, only a RL wallet one, to ghost training. Score three against CCP.
4) By removing incentives to reactivate accounts that had been ghost training, it's likely CCP will see total subscription income drop as people do not renew accounts, possibly after paying a one time transfer fee to move a character off the account before canceling it. I really think someone dropped the ball on the cost/benefit analysis here. This particularly applies to people who have taken a break from the game but are now less tempted to return to play with that shiny new toy that boring long skill enabled.
5) This is the big one for me: CCP outright lied to their customers with the claim that it is based on fairness, and not the simple truth that they are a business and want people to pay for their product. And this is why I'm going to cancel one of my accounts so far. And no, it's not ghost training. The only time it ever did was before I even activated it. I trained Gallente Cruiser V right out of trial that way. That, in fact, is the only time any of my 3 accounts have ever ghost trained.
So, executive summary version: Demanding payment for your product or service is fair. Don't lie about it, though.
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Marius Duvall
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 -
[2072]
Originally by: Dire Radiant This is only acceptable if you put into place before the change a skill queue.
Or allow more than one character on an account to train skills. ---
Originally by: "Reticenti" Oh, one note to Scius, you have made Goons and BoB agree on something. Good job.
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IR Scoutar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 -
[2073]
Originally by: Kelly Cleiniv Edited by: Kelly Cleiniv on 14/10/2008 16:21:43 Wooohoo !! i¦m nr 2017 in the biggest whine thread ever
nooo 2020!!
lies! its not the biggest yet (even if you count the 49 pages of the locked one) but it will be ooh it will be
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Suze'Rain
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 -
[2074]
Originally by: Innaara Don't you guys get it by now?
CCP KNOWS you will renew your alts anyway. How else is this game playable?
4.5 years, 1 account, 1 main, 1 alt on that account used when the main gets boring. you do not "need" alt accounts, at all.
I've ghost trained twice: commandships 4-5 when I was struggling with cashflow, and decided to take a break. Frigate 5, when the 3-day trial ended (yes, 3 days), and I did'nt even realise what ghost-training was.
Still object to this as it's been dropped on players with such short notice, and no discussions.
IMO part of the best incentive of eve is, if you quit, you know your character will be better when you get drawn back in - an incentive removed with this.
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Tara Yang
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:28:00 -
[2075]
Originally by: St Claus
http://go-dl3.eve-files.com/media/0810/isabug4.jpg
That "bug" was removed from Serenity years/moths ago, why not from Tranquility if it is a bug and not a feature?
OMG that is just priceless. Even more epic fail
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Psyfr
Minmatar Sounds Of Violence Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 -
[2076]
ghost training is not free. generally speaking a person will train a rank V (averaging around 30 days) and then resub for 30 (ohshit $$$ for ccp!), then go inactive again with a new V training away. wtf is the point of ghost training if youre not going to resub (ohshit moar $$$!) to use the ****ing character?
jumping on the ccpfailboat wagon here: ccp, you make alot of stupid choices and are shooting yourself in the foot consistently. at a time where you really need good relations with the player base (lolnanonerf), you go ahead and effectively nerf any way that a player can have a nice break from the game, cycledown and relax; then come back to something shiny and new.
lately your dev blogs have been looking up with regards to the lag fixes, which has been great. you earned points with the entire community for that one. but now its just like youve taken those lag spikes away, then used it to stab us in our ghost-training backbone.
you have to understand, eve can become like a job or chore. its evident from some of the speed changes you dont actually play the game, but ill try to help you out here. we need to be able to take a break, in order to be able to come back. if we burn out, so does our wallet.
have fun with that btw.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Kamikaze Calloway
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 -
[2077]
Originally by: Borg Zorg
Originally by: TomHanx
Seriously, this is funny. I'm just going to keep reading the crying and eat some popcorn.
If u r f...ing ignorant and dont know nothing abouth game you are plaing that is your problem.Read forums more mo..on and read player guid so u will be more informed player ,that actuali knows what is hapening in game and not just land from nowhere cose someone told u this was hapening and than expres your sheat statments based on nothing... Nooob
TomHanx was right! This is funny! Pass the popcorn. And it looks like someone should spend less time reading the "guid" and more time reading the dictionary (check out irony, first)!
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TomHanx
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 -
[2078]
Originally by: Borg Zorg
Originally by: TomHanx To be honest I find it quite ridiculous that people have the audacity to complain about having to actually pay for a game (OHMAHAGAWD I NO RITE!?!). I didn't even know what this "ghost training" was until I was pointed here by people on the GTC forum. So, you can't exploit a game anymore. Oh no, boo hoo! It's very entertaining to see people cry about not being able to ghost train, and then say things like "-3 accounts for CCP!". You barely paid for the game to begin with, exploiting it so you could train a character and not pay. You act like it's a bad thing if cheapskate morons like that don't play.
Seriously, this is funny. I'm just going to keep reading the crying and eat some popcorn.
If u r f...ing ignorant and dont know nothing abouth game you are plaing that is your problem.Read forums more mo..on and read player guid so u will be more informed player ,that actuali knows what is hapening in game and not just land from nowhere cose someone told u this was hapening and than expres your sheat statments based on nothing... Nooob
Lol please learn to type better and come back to me with a coherent response.
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Borg Zorg
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:30:00 -
[2079]
The Secure section of the EVE website is undergoing essential maintenance presently and it is currently unreachable. The issue concerns a problem with the server at our billing service provider and we are in contact with them to solve the issue and get an estimation on when we will be back up. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and we hope to have the secure section back up as soon as possible.
Update: We are working with our billing services partners to address this issue which is being caused by server issues on their end of the pipe and thereby beyond our control. They have assured us that they are doing all they can to get things working properly. We'll keep checking back with them and update you as information becomes available.
Whata an coincidenc.We canot aces to our acount,right on. ppl did take seriusly you decision ccp and r canceling acounts.......
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Larg Kellein
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:30:00 -
[2080]
Oooh, nice touch... Just went to cancel an account and got this: "The EVE-online website is undergoing maintenance. We are sorry for any inconvenience caused."
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Junkie Beverage
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:31:00 -
[2081]
unacceptable
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 -
[2082]
Originally by: IR Scoutar
Originally by: Catherine Frasier I wouldn't expect such a list, period, why would you? Why would CCP (or anyone) run through each and every aspect of the game and specify; "Meant to do that", "Just got lucky", and "Ooops"?
i dont know about you but id expect the creater of the game to know about their game if somethings an oopsie it needs to be fixed if something has gone into your explenation of the game declaring it as oopsie 5 years later is a bit of a stretch dont you think
Not at all. In fact, some "oopsies" might be with us forever. Unintended doesn't mean bad, or good. It just means unintended. Like jet-can mining, or carrier-freighting. CCP knows (or finds out about) such things. Sometimes they ignore them, sometimes they embrace them, sometimes they let it ride for a while and see how it goes. In this case (and others) they let it ride until it becomes problematic and then fix it.
This is nothing new. Try storing a fully loaded indy in your carrier. You could, now you can't. It was unintended, discovered, allowed and then fixed. Just like this.
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Avita Ae
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 -
[2083]
I think fixing this so called "Bug" may actually make me quit playing this game. I feel allready as if I am just paying for the game to give me skillpoints. So that someday I will have a character worth playing. Some skills take ridiculously long times to train, and being able to train while inactive was one relief from it. This is obviously a way to just try to squeeze more money out of the player base.
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 -
[2084]
Truth is, the bug was overlooked and allowed until too many people started abusing it - and it's clear from the length of this thread that a lot of people were abusing it.
So if all of you hadn't been so dedicated to gaming the system then it would've still been around, each and everyone who is complaining in this thread contributed to the nerf.
Myself, I never did it, and I won't miss it.
In fact I find it quite amusing to read all these sob stories here from people who've apparently blaming their lapses in subscription on stock crashes and bank closures. If this really were the case then the last thing you'd be worried about would be getting level 5 in Caldari Battleship.
Now, please get back to coming up with creative ways to kill the macro miners.
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Meat Missle
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:33:00 -
[2085]
If there is an avalanch happening in your database, the solution is not to cut off features of the game, the solution is to create a more robust system to handle the new load.
What If you struck a middleground. You are obviously kicking a bees nest by doing this ( im already screwed ). What if you offered some sort of deal to people like us who afk train 1 accounts skills to 5? Something like an added service you can purchase under account settings that allows for chars to afk train skills. Im sure the skills are all level 5 rank 6 or more anyways. People will gradly pay for an extra service.
THat way, you get your dues, we get our level 5's and not everyone will pay it so the database load is much less. Everyones a winner. ----------------------------- - no, you cant have my high res image. |
Crewman Jenkins
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:34:00 -
[2086]
Its their company, they can do whatever they want. If you feel the product is no longer worth your money, don't subscribe to it.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:35:00 -
[2087]
Still no response to people asking why CCP felt it necessary to sugarcoat the truth, that this is a financial decision, with the falsehood, this is a bug.
Even from an immoral point of view I can't see the sense in it. I can see no reason to lie as an aside when your telling the truth about the heart of the matter to a discerning audience who are quite capable of seeing straight through this kind of thing.
This is terrible PR, and I worry that CCP may just decide to cancel this change to placate the masses while never providing an explanation as to why they felt the need to so blatantly misrepresent the facts.
Also: What made Torfi Frans Olafsson think for a second that we wouldn't notice this immediately? Does he really think, having been with the company since before launch, that the community is that stupid.
The whole thing is really quite depressing because I've always been a huge fan of CCP itself and things like this are eroding my trust in what I still consider to be the best MMO company out there.
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BIind
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:36:00 -
[2088]
Originally by: Suze'Rain 4.5 years, 1 account, 1 main, 1 alt on that account used when the main gets boring. you do not "need" alt accounts, at all.
I can't even begin to imagine how people would go about building a cyno network with just mains.
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Melissa Dawn
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:37:00 -
[2089]
So I have to pay for two months of game time in order to train a skill that takes 45 days? My main character has been active for more then a year, and the things I have to train are long skills.
So much for making my second account primary. I'll keep my money and stay on one character from now on. Now, if I decide to train a long skill, thats 45 days of no fun for me because I can't grow. If I want to have a little fun and explore the game a little more, I have to pay for two months game time on one account, and keep the other account active. It's loose-loose for me.
I thought it was bad that I couldn't train on two characters and now the rope has been tightened even more. If this is the way it's going to be, then I think I should be allowed to train more then one character on one account at the same time.
After all, fair is fair.
Melissa Dawn Eve University
The important thing is to be able to sacrifice what we are for what we could become
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Seth Ruin
Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:38:00 -
[2090]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Seth Ruin So here you're going to tell me neither you nor your main will ever complain about any game change ever, correct? Because after all, nothing is really an "intended feature."
Completely incorrect. First: Some things are clearly intended, some are not, for many there's just no way to know.
Second: That doesn't matter to me at all. I complain about (or applaud) the way things are. I don't give a rat's posterior whether they meant to do it or whether it just happened.
The only people I see claiming intent are the ones who want to take their selfish whinge about this decision and try to pretend it's some great moral crusade for honesty instead of just whining about their metagaming free lunch being closed down.
For the record, the honesty refers mostly to CCP's inability to choose a "reason" for doing this, but I like arguing the minutia anyway...
And as I said on one of the first dozen pages, this doesn't really affect me personally: I pay, I play. I pay for a year's subscription in advance because of the massive discount. I can afford my account and my alt. There are many who can't, however. So me complaining about CCP's actions here have nothing to do with "metagaming free lunch being closed down."
I understand your viewpoint. I honestly do. However, it is simply not standard practice for a company to openly document something that is an unintended affect. Documentation takes extra time, which is why you'll see many things in game that are not documented. The things that do make it to documentation have either had such a tenure in the process that they're essentially grandfathered in or they are such big features it is worth documenting.
Arguing that the documentation is not a description of intended features is simply not accurate with industry standards. Changes can be made to these features, of course, but to call what was once documented in the Player's Guide as "a bug" is dishonest at least, and shows CCP is still trying to cover up what was an entirely financial decision.
How can you define such an arbitrary line between "intended features" and "unintended features" without some kind of metric? How is it so "clear" that some features are intended? What makes them "clearly intended?" Mind you, this is not a rhetorical question.
As far as you "complain[ing] about (or applaud[ing]) the way things are," isn't that what we are doing here? We are applauding the way things currently are and complaining about the way things will be shortly. How are you any better than the other posters in this thread? You say yourself, "I don't give a rat's posterior whether they meant to do it or whether it just happened," to which I reply: neither do the posters who oppose this change. They do not care if CCP "meant to" implement this "ghost training" or if it "just happened." The fact remains, however, that this has been in game for the past half decade, and as such has become a part of the game. There are very few features for which you can say they have also been part of the game for that long.
-- (CCP Inconsistency)
Why cover it up? We KNOW it's all just about money |
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Mora Makur
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:39:00 -
[2091]
Why is skill training while you have an unpaid subscription "fair"?
Why is it "fair" that a paying subscriber and an unpaid account both can accumulate SP?
As a paying subscriber, I appreciate this greatly, and I am shocked that "ghost training" continued for as long as it did. Players will now have to get used to Level V skills that are actually difficult to get.
While its regretful that players are deciding to leave the game, this only makes those Level V skills even more valuable. Thanks, CCP for a great game. |
Isidore Tailleur
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:39:00 -
[2092]
This is so stupid.
I had planned to let my second account go for about 2 weeks between the monthly payments. Now I wont be renewing it at all and you will loose that income..
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ISIAM
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:40:00 -
[2093]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Still no response to people asking why CCP felt it necessary to sugarcoat the truth, that this is a financial decision, with the falsehood, this is a bug.
Even from an immoral point of view I can't see the sense in it. I can see no reason to lie as an aside when your telling the truth about the heart of the matter to a discerning audience who are quite capable of seeing straight through this kind of thing.
This is terrible PR, and I worry that CCP may just decide to cancel this change to placate the masses while never providing an explanation as to why they felt the need to so blatantly misrepresent the facts.
Also: What made Torfi Frans Olafsson think for a second that we wouldn't notice this immediately? Does he really think, having been with the company since before launch, that the community is that stupid.
The whole thing is really quite depressing because I've always been a huge fan of CCP itself and things like this are eroding my trust in what I still consider to be the best MMO company out there.
"THAT"S A FACT JACK."
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Andron Blaxcor
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:40:00 -
[2094]
Personally, I am at uni half the year. I have used ghost training to make sure that I get something not there. I now have two choices:
1) Pay subs for a game that I cannot play for the sake of training alone. 2) Lose ground and training time, making the game less enjoyable.
Either way CCP have made my enjoyment of the game less. I guarantee I will not take option one, so CCP have just made the game worse for me. Will I return? Probably. But this brings the day that I won't a lot closer.
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Crewman Jenkins
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:41:00 -
[2095]
Fair is fair..they say what they offer, and you can take it or leave it. Noone is forcing you to stay. Thats fair.
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NupetietVer
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:41:00 -
[2096]
CCP has just nerfed this game to WoWness. Heck, even WoW is cheaper a month!
And PS, if anyone eve-mails during Christmas, you can have my stuff because thats when my GTC ends, heck no i'm not spending another $35 dollars for BattleShip Lvl 5.
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BIind
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:41:00 -
[2097]
Originally by: Mora Makur Players will now have to get used to Level V skills that are actually difficult to get.
Or don't bother resubbing after taking a break. Also there's nothing difficult about getting a V skill, it's just expensive now.
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Annaphera
Minmatar Super Green Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:42:00 -
[2098]
Originally by: St Claus Edited by: St Claus on 14/10/2008 16:28:12
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Marius Duvall If something is listed in the user manual saying "Hey, you can do this," it's an intended effect.
That's complete nonsense. The way training is handled (simulating constant training by updating when you log in) didn't take into account the possibility that for some of the time between log-ins your account might have been "inactive". Training and billing were on different pages, as it were.
Oops!
It was unintended and no amount of documentation can ever change that fact. Nothing short of time travel can even make it an intentional decision. If you want to argue that they accepted the way it was then sure, I agree, they did. And now they don't.
http://go-dl3.eve-files.com/media/0810/isabug4.jpg
That "bug" was removed from Serenity years/moths ago, why not from Tranquility if it is a bug and not a feature?null
Better question - why was it removed from Serenity if it was a feature and not a bug?
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:42:00 -
[2099]
Big deal.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.14 16:42:00 -
[2100]
Originally by: Tobias Lee
In essence there's going to be a large amount of 2nd 3rd 4th accounts dedicated specialist toons that wont be renewed simply because of the cost.
How does this affect the game?
Sounds good to me, it means that there will be small groups that aren't fully manned with a falcon, Crow, and each player with a T2 Cruiser and or BS.
I see this as a good thing as currently there are too many specialist chars in game.
CCP, I'm happy with the change, thank you and for all the whiners...PAY for the account if you want the account.
Originally by: Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu |
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