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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Paradise Dreamer
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:18:00 -
[2671]
epic... So all we need is compare newest one player guide to older ones...
Even if it has to be happen (about ghost training), the CCP use failed arguments. Like in politics... If you want to change something for every cost, you have to lie as much as you can...
;/
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Zinnn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:18:00 -
[2672]
Edited by: Zinnn on 14/10/2008 21:25:32
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Creepin
Originally by: Catherine Frasier No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
Oh, cmon, the bug that was unfixable for bloody five years and coincidentally got fixed at this exact moment, mwahaha
Coincidence takes two things. What's the other thing happening "at this exact moment" that makes it a conspiracy?
And, to be clear, nobody said it was "unfixable". It was merely not fixed until now.
You know I can put merely in front of anything to make it sound minimizing. I merely cut a person in half. I merely robbed a bank. So what if it's MERELY not fixed until now. The question YOU have to ask yourself is WHY did they wait until NOW to fix it instead of fixing it when they had the technology YEARS AGO?? REPLY TO ME CATHERINE, you obviously have nothing better to do than to stick up for CCP, so answer.
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shiamizu
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:19:00 -
[2673]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
Originally by: Jocho And your idea that someone can earn many more SP's is ludicrous. Maybe a million more tops due to implants.
You don't understand. A ghost trainer who has two accounts (for example) and alternates every month which one is active and which inactive can generate twice as many skill points per dollar as a person who plays the game normally.
whahaha, now all of a sudden it's all about the skillpoints? I thought CCP always said the amount of skillpoints weren important and it was all about tactics and unique ways of playing?
Dude, give it a rest already, you are only focusing on the 'fairness' of skilling while inactive and that's not the problem here. The outrage is mainly a result of the way CCP ****s with their customers for reasons mentioned over and over in this thread.
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Maurice MerleauPonty
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:19:00 -
[2674]
here are links to other places, besides the eve forum, that are discussing this nerf:
digg
massively.com
this
battleclinic forums
mmorpg.com
this
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Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:20:00 -
[2675]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
If it wasn't, then why the hell CCP advertised it on Live chats or Interviews.
Forget about the blog, why the hell CCP didn't removed an "unintentional" feature for 5 and a half years? Do you think they held on to it as a "get out of the jail free" card?
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Vespa Orebane
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:20:00 -
[2676]
Originally by: LordSwift
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: Avon Hey, your bug...
Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive
I found it in the player guide.
You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.
You, sir, are a hero.
No he has no life. and has nothing better to do than search the small print somewhere stating old information. Damn give them a chance to update everything.
mmm I smell Dev alt account...
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Red flagged
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:20:00 -
[2677]
Simply ask for honesty and respect.
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The Madcap
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:21:00 -
[2678]
In before page 100. Hey, couldn't waste the chance to post in this epic thread, I'm sure I'll look back at it one day and tell the young Achuras that "I was there!".
Either way; All you guys and gals that feel compelled to quit over this, please send your stuff to RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE [KENNY]. I'll dedicate all donated stuff to Wallet/Hangar division #6, which currently isn't used, and I'll name it Lollerskates. I'll make sure it's put to good use. Destruction!
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Jocho
Caldari Warped Mining
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:21:00 -
[2679]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
Originally by: Jocho And your idea that someone can earn many more SP's is ludicrous. Maybe a million more tops due to implants.
You don't understand. A ghost trainer who has two accounts (for example) and alternates every month which one is active and which inactive can generate twice as many skill points per dollar as a person who plays the game normally.
It wasn't intended? Even though it was mentioned on the character training page as well as it was removed on the Chinese server, yet CCP reasured it would remain on Tranquility... A 5 year bug which CCP advertised & knew about, reasuring it would remain on Tranquilty. Yes. That makes sense. A bug that the deveolpers reassured would remain...Makes perfect sense...
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MILK Monk
2nd Blood Raven Assault Squad
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:21:00 -
[2680]
... my tiny little POV... I am young in EVE thus I have fun with one account and so far no need to pause playing and Ghost Train. I was just thinking about buying another account. But what I wanted to say is that when I heard about this first then I told to myself - "Well who cares? It is good that it was here so long... at least". Then I realized that there will be masacre on forums.. and I was sure right :D ...
You people saying that this move will remove subscribers, well yes... some of you will drop their 3rd and 4th chars, but I am quite sure that most of you will keep the second one, as it is often needed (and as some more clever have already written above me). Also this is CHANGE, as every change in human history also this rise huge anti-emotions, few days maybe weeks later you will all calm down, this univers will be still the same place, new players will be incoming, some leaving... you will simply get used to it.
One bad thing is, this could be good reason to come back after you need to have a break from EVE - well now you will return later or never, but I would bet few iskies that you will return anyway even that your char will be still the same as you left it.
Second bad thing is that it really look stupid to call something as a bug while CCP was using this as one of marketing moves. It is pretty low... at least at first sight.
Overall no matter what we all think about it, I very much belive CCP did analysis of possible impact when applying this change... or do you REALLY think they did not??? __________________________________ I do it myyyy wayyyy... Milky Way. |
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:22:00 -
[2681]
Edited by: Catherine Frasier on 14/10/2008 21:29:02
Originally by: Carsidava Please post proof that CCP considered this a bug (in those words) before yesterday's announcements.
They have still not said that. They said "Ghost Training was an unintended feature<...> in all effect, this was a bug." Which is not the same thing. If it makes you happier to think that describing "an unintended result of the way we coded training which eventually became quite problematic and had to be fixed" in all effect a bug is a big giant evil lie, then go right ahead. AFAIAC though it's a fair and reasonable description.
And even if they hadn't used the B-word I'd still support cutting off this exploit.
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Salt Dober
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:25:00 -
[2682]
For all the supposed smarts at CCP, I wonder if anyone there has a clue, if you lot think this will make you more money...then you don't understand the ebb and flow of MMO players...many who would come back after a month or two hiatus will be gone for good...let alone the use of alts...
Less alcohol, more thoughtful rational approaches please.
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LegendaryFrog
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:25:00 -
[2683]
I would accept this had it not come right at the end of the power-of-two promotion. Encouraging players to take a second account assuming that this 'bug' would be in place and then removing this 'bug' the moment the promotion ends (severely mitigating most players interest in having a second account) can really only be seen as deceptive at best.
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Mallikan
Gallente Plundering Penguins Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:26:00 -
[2684]
Originally by: Jocho Edited by: Jocho on 14/10/2008 21:02:26
Originally by: Mallikan
Originally by: ViolenTUK This is the worst most appalling and ghastly idea I have seen CCP implement so abruptly in the time I have spent with this game.
There is no justifiable reason to implement this idea now. For CCP to cover it up with the rouge that ôGhostö training is an exploit is an insult. ôGhostö training has been and advertised feature, which has been a deciding factor for many to subscribe to an account. I am simply not interested in the explanation that it was an unintentional bug, which has been used by players. This Feature, which CCP has advertised, has been used for 5 years now and it is deplorable to suddenly withdraw it with virtually no warning.
We will see whether CCP have made a bad move by noting the active subscriptions over the forthcoming months.
If you were any more flamboyant about the wording used here, I would actually miss you. Any recommendations for a good Thesaurus like your's? More to the point, I believe it was the INTERNET SPACESHIPS that drew the most people to the game. I am pretty sure people don't flock to EVE so that they can -not- play with characters. After you get done with your dictionary, try playing the game, it's neat. There's shooting and trading.. lots of fun.
Wow, I havn't stumbled across someone as ignorant as yourself in quite a long time. What's wrong in being well read? Cleary the EvE chronicles aren't expanding your vocabulary enough. ANYWAY what attracted a lot of people was that ghost training meant that they could have a life whilst playing eve. I know a lot of players who chucked on lvl 5 skills while they could not actively play, such as people in the military. I for one get sick of eve time to time, because honestly, it's nothing superb. Compared to next gen games etc it is serverly lacking in many ways. What was nice was the fact I could 'level' but only had to play when I would like, I dind't have to make Eve my life, as so many players seem to do. CCP have made a bogus claim that ghost training is a bug, and so are clearly just wanting more cash, whilst the player gets less, for a higher price. Sorry if I don't like the idea of lying to the customers for more money. I think its appalling.
Epic lulz. First off, I'm in the military. That doesn't mean I should be the difference between game balance and inbalance. Two, why then are so many people say "OMG LEAVING" and then saying they're going to some other MMO that doesn't even offer time based training?? If you need to take a break from EVE, either keep paying for it, or stop training. You're not paying nor playing it at that time so it's only fair. Get over it? I'm sorry an internet spaceship game company appalled you. That must be rough for you. LOL.. Bye now, see you in "Generic MMO X." --- lol.. I messed up.
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Xeronn
Amarr Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:26:00 -
[2685]
Originally by: Shard Merchant To recap..
- Release a short news bit regarding widespread and significant change that would occur in 48 hours.
- Buried with other news minutes later.
- 50 pages of posting follow, discussing the legitimacy of this change as per the reasons given.
- Locked 50 pages of posts because a blog was posted, that repeats the same message.
- Dev blog mentions the 'business side' of this move, which the news post omitted.
- 70 pages of new postings follow.
- Thread disappears from Information Portal. Players find it and continue posting.
- Player guide gets edited to remove controversial remarks.
Without discussing the removal of "ghost training" specifically, what we have here is an attempt to pull a fast one on the players. It is easily the biggest attempted ninja nerf in the history of this game. Your customers deserve:
- More than two days of warning, so they can find out about the changes and plan accordingly
- More visible warning, like the login screen MOTD
- More transparency and honesty about the reasons by discussing all the reasons
Hard decisions are always hard, but how you handle them determines if you gain or lose respect. The player is going to feel screwed by changes that affect them poorly, and this is the equivalent of adding insult to injury.
A lot of people are willing to defend this company regardless of what they do (4S name change, t20 scandal), but this community was built on a common respect for the makers of this game even if they didn't always agree. That was eons ago.
You might not see a dip in subscriber counts, but you'll see an increase in player churn that requires more marketing money to support. You not only lose massive amounts of free word of mouth advertising, but scare away players with the amount of ex-EVE types that leave disgruntled at something you did.
/ THIS!
I dont care about ghosttraining , i missed some training weeks, i ghosttrained others, overall both accounts i own are 95% active
But the way CCP handles this is at least disheartening, and umm...oh well...i`m still posting cause that other game is just 83% downloaded
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Salt Dober
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:27:00 -
[2686]
Originally by: MILK Monk Overall no matter what we all think about it, I very much belive CCP did analysis of possible impact when applying this change... or do you REALLY think they did not???
You are new...
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BIind
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:27:00 -
[2687]
Originally by: MILK Monk Overall no matter what we all think about it, I very much belive CCP did analysis of possible impact when applying this change... or do you REALLY think they did not???
My guess is that they're totally oblivious as to what makes people return to this game, maybe they think it's their brilliant advertising and marketing methods that keep people coming back. And it's not, at least in my case, it's knowing that when I return there's a new shipclass waiting for me.
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10of10
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:27:00 -
[2688]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
Originally by: Jocho And your idea that someone can earn many more SP's is ludicrous. Maybe a million more tops due to implants.
You don't understand. A ghost trainer who has two accounts (for example) and alternates every month which one is active and which inactive can generate twice as many skill points per dollar as a person who plays the game normally.
Just because your not smart enough to manage your accounts dosent mean that the rest of us should suffer. And yes you have to be a ccp plant. |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:28:00 -
[2689]
I expected this "Feature" to be removed, when the same thing was done on Serenity.
Aside from that, I can understand CCP's handling. Besides it is much more of a Loophole that is now being closed.
Nothing really changes. Skilling takes still time, you can play EVE while you skill, the only thing you do not get anymore is Skill-Training for free, which makes Character Farming a bit more costly.
So you want a service, then you will have to pay for it. Sounds fair enough for me.
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ISIAM
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:28:00 -
[2690]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Carsidava Please post proof that CCP considered this a bug (in those words) before yesterday's announcements.
They have still not said that. They said "Ghost Training was an unintended feature<...> in all effect, this was a bug." Which is not the same thing. If it makes you happier to think that describing "an unintended result of the way we coded training which eventually became quite problematic and had to be fixed" in all effect a bug is a big giant evil lie, then go right ahead. AFAIAC thought it's a fair and reasonable description.
And even if they hadn't used the B-word I'd still support cutting off this exploit.
That's because they won't pay you till you convince us all it's a good idea.
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Za Tarc
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:28:00 -
[2691]
look. I understand why they are doing this and am not arguing their right to do so. Like has been said many times here, they can do what they want. And yes, many people feel they have been shafted.. and they probably should. This is because they felt it was important to their play style. I also understand that some of you think it is all good. This of course is because your play style isn't affected. Personally, mine isn't really affected that much. I leave the account off to go somewhere else for a while and I will miss the feature, but it's not the end of the world. I will still play. but when I take a break (like most do), I just wont be paying every other month. I will be paying when I come back, like in other games.
The only thing I see here is that this might not bring the income that CCP thinks they are getting. It's a bit of a gamble for them. I only know myself and 4 others personally that play the game. For all of us, they will actually be losing money, not gaining. based off this, I can assume that a very large number of others will be in same boat. From an economic standpoint, this is risky. They may end up making less, while ****ing off quite a few players.. but then again only time will tell. I am in regardless. It will just cost me less now :). not that the skills matter that much anyway. Any pod pilot knows that the skill is mostly in the player, not the machine. I will just hone my skills more.
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Caius LiviusCerso
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:28:00 -
[2692]
I used it on several occasion, mostly my main account when I went awol in RL.
LEts be honest ppl. You wouldnt have Sony give you such candy for 5 years so far, would you?
Thanx CCP for all you've done. And t those with 5-12 accounts that are threatening to leave (which is stupid - you eiter love and play eve, or not) go to bigger pastures.
Also, ISK buying subscriptions have how many games?? Please remind me. I am very happy with Eve....looking forward to future with CCP. Thanx folks.
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Alan Kell
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:29:00 -
[2693]
Edited by: Alan Kell on 14/10/2008 21:29:59 The crazy thing is that CCP is responsible for the increase in the use of ghost training.
Firstly, in an attempt to increase revenue, the GTC prices are changed.
Secondly, with the first "power of 2" marketing drive, GTC prices spike due to high demand as power of 2 accounts start to expire.
Accounts are allowed to lapse and ghost training use spikes.
CCP responds in an attempt to shore up account subscriptions by making ghost training unusable.
Sadly, this is likely to reduce the number of people who go inactive for some reason but come back revitalised when they realise something is done training. :(
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:30:00 -
[2694]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
If it wasn't, then why the hell CCP advertised it on Live chats or Interviews.
Got a link for any of that?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:30:00 -
[2695]
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans
Does that mean that CCP is a greedy money chewing monster that just loves nerfing things?
Oh really? What a coincidence that you came up with this 'nerf' while you managed to make quite handfull of bad moves lately(security hit changes, proposed speed changes, removing caps from high-sec 'by accident', etc.).
Just another step to lose more of your already damaged credibility... I assume you are very confident about yourself since you removed the option to pay 'every second month' leaving us to decide if we stay or leave forever.
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gravitywave
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:30:00 -
[2696]
Edited by: gravitywave on 14/10/2008 21:32:05
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Carsidava Please post proof that CCP considered this a bug (in those words) before yesterday's announcements.
They have still not said that. They said "Ghost Training was an unintended feature<...> in all effect, this was a bug." Which is not the same thing. If it makes you happier to think that describing "an unintended result of the way we coded training which eventually became quite problematic and had to be fixed" in all effect a bug is a big giant evil lie, then go right ahead. AFAIAC thought it's a fair and reasonable description.
And even if they hadn't used the B-word I'd still support cutting off this exploit.
Dev: oh look we accidently made the code train skills when people stop paying
Dev2: yer, ah nevermind that one can fall through the net, kinda neat really
Dev: agreed we will call it a feature
Dev2 :)
5 years on...
Dev's: Ohnoz teh banks are fuxored! Remove the feature! Its loosing us soooo much cash! We will tell people it was infact a bug! No one will mind too much :)
Bug? i think not. bugs get squashed or turned into features, not the other way round ;)
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Gajowy
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:30:00 -
[2697]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Carsidava Please post proof that CCP considered this a bug (in those words) before yesterday's announcements.
They have still not said that. They said "Ghost Training was an unintended feature<...> in all effect, this was a bug." Which is not the same thing. If it makes you happier to think that describing "an unintended result of the way we coded training which eventually became quite problematic and had to be fixed" in all effect a bug is a big giant evil lie, then go right ahead. AFAIAC thought it's a fair and reasonable description.
And even if they hadn't used the B-word I'd still support cutting off this exploit.
so its a bug but not a bug, and it was a bug earlier but it was feature in the same time. You're really.. well not smart... if you think that you can force people to belive that black is white.
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Creepin
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:30:00 -
[2698]
To hell the disabling itself, I for one was never using it. The thing that ****es me off is CCP behaviour towards it's customers. My own opinion of CCP, for example, within a 1,5 year span of gameplay has changed from a "company of enthusiasts who love their game, not their revenues" to "a bunch of **** who stops at no lie and scheme to cover it's blatant lust for draining subscribers money". This is sad change actually.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:32:00 -
[2699]
Originally by: shiamizu whahaha, now all of a sudden it's all about the skillpoints? I thought CCP always said the amount of skillpoints weren important and it was all about tactics and unique ways of playing?
Nope, someone asked me to specifically explain that one particular aspect, so I did.
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Zinnn
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:32:00 -
[2700]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Creepin
Originally by: Catherine Frasier No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
Oh, cmon, the bug that was unfixable for bloody five years and coincidentally got fixed at this exact moment, mwahaha
Coincidence takes two things. What's the other thing happening "at this exact moment" that makes it a conspiracy?
And, to be clear, nobody said it was "unfixable". It was merely not fixed until now.
I'm saying this again cause I recieved no reply the last time.
You know I can put merely in front of anything to make it sound minimizing. I merely cut a person in half. I merely robbed a bank. So what if it's MERELY not fixed until now. The question YOU have to ask yourself is WHY did they wait until NOW to fix it instead of fixing it when they had the technology YEARS AGO?? REPLY TO ME CATHERINE, you obviously have nothing better to do than to stick up for CCP, so answer.
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