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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 19:54:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/10/2008 19:54:22 http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20081021/ap_on_hi_te/eu_netherlands_virtual_theft
Quote: AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A Dutch court has convicted two youths of theft for stealing virtual items in a computer game and sentenced them to community service.
Only a handful of such cases have been heard in the world, and they have reached varying conclusions about the legal status of "virtual goods."
The Leeuwarden District Court says the culprits, 15 and 14 years old, coerced a 13-year-old boy into transferring a "virtual amulet and a virtual mask" from the online adventure game RuneScape to their game accounts.
"These virtual goods are goods (under Dutch law), so this is theft," the court said Tuesday in a summary of its ruling.
Identities of the minors were not released.
The 15-year-old was sentenced to 200 hours service, and the 14-year-old to 160 hours.
WTF? So these items weren't hacked, they were scammed... *facepalm* |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 19:56:00 -
[2]
Friggin lame. Is this EU law or just Dutch?
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/10/2008 20:03:12
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Friggin lame. Is this EU law or just Dutch?
I have no idea, I was hoping someone here might know more details. I wasn't at all aware of this case until I saw this news article... though the text of the article seems to declare it was Dutch law.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:03:00 -
[4]
haha, how pathetic.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:04:00 -
[5]
I understand the morality of punishing them for theft. But I greatly question the legality of it. _______________
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius I understand the morality of punishing them for theft. But I greatly question the legality of it.
I don't understand the morality of punishing them for theft. They're kids, and haven't stolen anything.
What next? Are we going to get arrested for shooting police officers and stealing cars in Grand Theft Auto IV?
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:11:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 21/10/2008 20:12:40
tbh some of the Runescape rules are laughably emasculated compared to Eve's. Here's Runescape's take on "item scamming".
Originally by: http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws?guid=rule_2_item_scamming You must not scam or deceive other players. And lying to other players for your own personal gain is not in the spirit of fair play.
I didn't really read all their rules or find an official EULA, but I scanned their rules looking for a mention of how everything in-game is the property of Jagex (the guys who make or own Runescape or whatever.) I didn't find any such mention but I assume in Runescape, as in Eve, everything in-game is the property of the company, not the player. Since that's the case, it'd seem there'd be no legal foundation to claim theft if you acquire someone else's gear (unless you acquired their personal information and logged into their account), since the legal owner of the pixels (the company) didn't change with the transfer of the item from player to player.
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:12:00 -
[8]
The items are the result of real life effort. Anyway you're misinterpreting my reply. _______________
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:21:00 -
[9]
Oh dear god
Political correctness with legal backing (common sense not required). -------------------------
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Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Azuse Oh dear god
Political correctness with legal backing (common sense not required).
What he said.
[hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:25:00 -
[11]
Crap, I guess most of us are criminals by Dutch standard.
Drones | Ships | Weapons BPO and BPC |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:28:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Verone on 21/10/2008 20:30:08
Originally by: Gordon Marinius The items are the result of real life effort. Anyway you're misinterpreting my reply.
No I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you.
You're saying that you believe morally, that these kids should be punished for stealing in an online game. I'm saying that it's stupid, and rediculous that two children should be punished for being smarter than someone else in a game.
Fair enough, if these kids had stolen the guy's Xbox, sure, no worries... community service. They've stole nothing of physical substance, nothing of value.
The guy invested the time in gaining the items knowing full well that they were of no real value and of no real consequence. He also did so knowing that at any point in time the attributes of said items could be changed, affecting their value in the game world, or indeed they could be removed from the game world all together by the development team.
They stole nothing. Nothing at all. Why should two kids recieve a criminal record and be persecuted over stealing nothing?
What are they going to do? Send interpol around to someone's house when they steal a car online from another player in GTA4? Arrest them for murder if they driveby a group of players?
It's an absolute joke. Games are a form of entertainment, regardless of how that entertainement comes inside the game world.
It's pathetic to see yet again that politically correct nanny state bullshit is invading every inch of our lives.
Originally by: Brock Nelson Crap, I guess most of us are criminals by Dutch standard.
I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Dihania
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:34:00 -
[13]
I hope the kids parents file for a mistrial (if that means what I think it does) or go for appeal and ask for a sane judge.
[hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dihania I hope the kids parents file for a mistrial (if that means what I think it does) or go for appeal and ask for a sane judge.
Not sure what a mistrial means in a Dutch court, but in an American court it isn't something that gets filed for after the fact. It's what results from a hung jury, the introduction of inappropriately prejudicial testimony, misconduct from one or more individuals in the trial, or a few other things. It gets declared by the judge and the case, if possible and if desired by the prosecutor, is retried with a different jury (or a different judge in the case of bench trials) later.\
What you're thinking of is more likely "filing an appeal", which in American courts takes the case to the next court level, if the appellate court agrees there is merit to do so. Again, not sure how it works in Holland.
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Verone What are they going to do? Send interpol around to someone's house when they steal a car online from another player in GTA4? Arrest them for murder if they driveby a group of players?
My point that you keep missing is that although what they do is wrong. We can't have police going around busting people for it. Leave the punishment to the people who run the game. Let them ban the offenders accounts. They stole nothing of vallue. Now they can lose some accounts full of "No vallue"
Originally by: Verone I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
As much as I would like to take your word on this. We both know that if police showed up at your house the coversation would go like this
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: Please come with us or we will be forced to handcuff you Verone: Okay
As it would with all sane people. Otherwise things usualy end badly _______________
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:54:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
As it would with all sane people. Otherwise things usualy end badly
Chris Rock is soooo lame.
Quote: Also people fail to realise that there was real live coersion involved in this case. They didn't scam him in game. The 15 and 14 year old grabed the 13 year old and made him transfer the items. They where convicted of theft because they couldn't prove physical coersion.
Do you have more information on this? Links etc?
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:54:00 -
[17]
I guess the more important question would be. If a guy twice your size forced you to move all your Eve ISK to his char. Would you call the police afterwards? if police went to his house about it would you call BS on that because it's just game currency that doesn't exist in real life? _______________
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius I guess the more important question would be. If a guy twice your size forced you to move all your Eve ISK to his char. Would you call the police afterwards? if police went to his house about it would you call BS on that because it's just game currency that doesn't exist in real life?
Yeah, and I'd file an assault (or is it battery?) charge.
Anyway, do you have extra information on this case? Very difficult to draw inferences about physical violence from that article?
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Rivur'Tam
X10 Punishment La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: Verone What are they going to do? Send interpol around to someone's house when they steal a car online from another player in GTA4? Arrest them for murder if they driveby a group of players?
My point that you keep missing is that although what they do is wrong. We can't have police going around busting people for it. Leave the punishment to the people who run the game. Let them ban the offenders accounts. They stole nothing of vallue. Now they can lose some accounts full of "No vallue"
Originally by: Verone I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
As much as I would like to take your word on this. We both know that if police showed up at your house the coversation would go like this
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: Please come with us or we will be forced to handcuff you Verone: Okay
As it would with all sane people. Otherwise things usualy end badly
Maybe you would cry like a baby, But some of us have balls...
In most cases, I tend to launch something at them and run, but every so often they get a smack most pigs think they punch above their weight and 90% of the time this is far from the truth, Most are cowards that hide under their cheuqured hat.
Firemen now they are real heros.. starting to rant so...
I really think that is stuiped, Stealing in game is a crime wtf????
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:57:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 21/10/2008 20:59:37 Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 21/10/2008 20:58:53
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Do you have more information on this? Links etc?
They knew eachother in real life. The kid pinned it on them. The police could actualy come get them.
Had they not known eachother in real life then the kid would first have had to go to the police. After that the police would have had to get a search warrant to go to the people who host the runescape servers and then demand the IP idresses. Then use the adresses to contact the parents and then get name of just one of the kids who would then have to name the other.
One kid claiming stolen online goods is not enough to get such a search warrant. The kid had to have known both of the older kids in real life.
The only reasons they where convicted of stealing ingame items was because that was the only charge that the prosecutor could use to convict them. _______________
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 20:59:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 21/10/2008 21:04:28
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Do you have more information on this? Links etc?
They knew eachother in real life. The kid pinned it on them. The police could actualy come get them.
Had they not known eachother in real life then the kid would first have had to go to the police. After that the police would have had to get a search warran to go to the people who host runescape and then demand the IP idresses. Then use the adresses to contact the parents and then get name of just one of the kid who would then have to name the other.
One kid claiming stolen online goods is not enough to get such a search warrant. The kid had to have known both of the older kids in real life.
Ah, very good point. Nice thinking. Who are you, ****in' Sherlock Holmes :D
Though it's hard to say that the latter isn't what happened (IP search and all that), which is why I'm looking for more information on the actual case. If RuneScape wanted to allow such a search, they could have looked at chat and trade logs, etc.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:05:00 -
[22]
The linked article didn't mention physical coercion. If physical coercion happened then yes, a civil suit could be brought against the two older kids (or their parents, in countries where civil redress against minors is made against the parents instead... I believe this is the case in the US as well) although it's questionable how much compensation could be made for the act committed.
Still waiting on a Dutch player to come and comment on this. The only Dutch guy I ever met was someone at Fanfest, and I was too drunk to really remember much of the conversation. I do remember the bit about politics and the agreement we struck that both of us couldn't ****ing believe we elected Bush twice. But I digress.
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Lemage
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:09:00 -
[23]
I'm not sure how punishment gets dished out, but isn't it based on the value of the item stolen? Like stealing a gold watch is different from stealing a candy bar.
How did the judge come up with punishment if the items stolen had no value? The story is unclear on what the kids where punished for, was it for coercing or theft?
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:09:00 -
[24]
there is a principle involved here - sure it was only "virtual items" but its never ok to take what doesnt belong to you its never ok to coerse (eve excluded because it's permitted and encouraged in this game and part of accepted behaviour in this universe)
i think that it would be irresponsible of any parent to ignore this type of behaviour if it became known to them. a better lesson for young people to learn is the value and satisfaction gained from results achieved from your own hard work.
saying - these were not real items is a cop out.
money is not real - its a concept and a promise to exchange goods and services and yet we all know that the law comes down hard on anyone who steals this "virtual item" and rightly so.
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DarkViper2
Caldari Samhain. Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:17:00 -
[25]
In this case it was about physical coercion, no court in the world would punish someone of stealing virual goods, if it happened online. the 2 boys forced the 13 year old to transfer the goods to there account, and because it was physical they were punished for it.
if them 2 boys would have robbed the 13 year old online, then there would have been no problem.
DV2
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:21:00 -
[26]
I posted a thread about this on the General Discussion forum and it seems that there was some other stuff going down- physical coercion involving knives was mentioned.
Corp and Personal killboard
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Jazhara Gold
Crepitus Ventris
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:21:00 -
[27]
YOIKS!!!
Guess I'd just better be returning that large pos in space I stole a couple of nights back or else my ass is dutch prison poontang
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Anna Scot
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:28:00 -
[28]
Im dutch and i found the following article (which is in dutch) http://www.nu.nl/news/1800169/50/Werkstraf_en_voorwaardelijk_voor_virtuele_diefstal.html
To give a quick resume: The boys did know the younger one and forced him to go to his home where they beat him up and under threat of a knife they forced him to make the transfers online.
There attorney (is this right?) claimed the items not to be actual good but the judge disagread with them.
They were also charged with threath and battering.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Anna
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.21 21:41:00 -
[29]
And this was going to be such a big debate too. Oh well. _______________
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:07:00 -
[30]
Moved to OOPE.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang |
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Goran StarRider
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Anna Scot Im dutch and i found the following article (which is in dutch) http://www.nu.nl/news/1800169/50/Werkstraf_en_voorwaardelijk_voor_virtuele_diefstal.html
To give a quick resume: The boys did know the younger one and forced him to go to his home where they beat him up and under threat of a knife they forced him to make the transfers online.
There attorney (is this right?) claimed the items not to be actual good but the judge disagread with them.
They were also charged with threath and battering.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Anna
Well that's a huuuuuge freaking difference.
("attorney" is right but the it's "their attorney" not "there attorney.")
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Zephyr Rengate
Caldari dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.10.21 22:59:00 -
[32]
I have one of those mask sets on my old RS account. They are worth a ****ing shit load of in game cash aswell as that they sell well on ebay.
I would screw at anyone who took mine if I still played that game.
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sg3s
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:05:00 -
[33]
Most people here are missing the point, the English articles I've seen so far leave out the fact that the items were stolen at knifepoint.
That makes it a whole different case.
If I'd threaten someone with a knife to get them to transfer all their eve items to me, then that would be theft as well, regardless of the fact that theft is allowed in eve.
Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.21 23:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: sg3s Most people here are missing the point, the English articles I've seen so far leave out the fact that the items were stolen at knifepoint.
That makes it a whole different case.
If I'd threaten someone with a knife to get them to transfer all their eve items to me, then that would be theft as well, regardless of the fact that theft is allowed in eve.
Yeah, that makes a ***HUGE*** difference.
Ugh, this thread was moved to /b/.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.22 02:15:00 -
[35]
Originally by: sg3s Most people here are missing the point, the English articles I've seen so far leave out the fact that the items were stolen at knifepoint.
That makes it a whole different case.
If I'd threaten someone with a knife to get them to transfer all their eve items to me, then that would be theft as well, regardless of the fact that theft is allowed in eve.
I dont think your allowed to transfer isk for real life items (whether it be your life or a video game...)
Originally by: Akita T
Seriously ?
...wow... I'm such a forum ho' !
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Jiggs Casey
Minmatar Taintclan Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.22 02:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Gordon Marinius I understand the morality of punishing them for theft. But I greatly question the legality of it.
I don't understand the morality of punishing them for theft. They're kids, and haven't stolen anything.
What next? Are we going to get arrested for shooting police officers and stealing cars in Grand Theft Auto IV?
agreed...
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.10.22 03:43:00 -
[37]
**reserved in case i decide to flame europeans for stupid laws**
(although i am trying VERY hard not to)
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.22 04:24:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 22/10/2008 04:26:40 And here comes the "Only read the first post" crowd, rolling in.
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 **reserved in case i decide to flame europeans for stupid laws**
(although i am trying VERY hard not to)
Yes damn those europeans and their silly anti robbery-at-knifepoint-laws _______________
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.10.22 05:29:00 -
[39]
lol.... Probably the 13 year old is in the judge's clan/guild/corp/alliance/wutevar
Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive (in the second scenario you can't change skill tr |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.22 05:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: Verone I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
As much as I would like to take your word on this. We both know that if police showed up at your house the coversation would go like this
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: Please come with us or we will be forced to handcuff you Verone: Okay
Some of us possess something called a spine. Some of us also know our rights, and where the law stands in our country regarding things like this.
If the police came to my house regarding theft of virtual items in an online game the conversation would be more like this :
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: We are looking to question you in connection with theft of virtual property in an online game. Verone: You're joking, right? Police: No sir, we'd like you to come with us to the station. Verone: I'd prefer to speak to my lawyer first, I'll give him a call and seek legal advice, then come voluntarily to the station if it's reccomended I do so. If you'd like to me to come now, then I'd like to see evidence in relation to the allegations and I'll be more than happy to, otherwise I'll have to ask you to leave my property until such a time as you have an official warrant from Durham Crown Court to enter and arrest me by force.
Job's sorted really, I go back to my cuppa, they go back to their paperwork.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
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Elite Marksman
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Posted - 2008.10.22 05:35:00 -
[41]
Verone, actually they can force you to come in for questioning. At that point you can request your lawyer. However, they can not detain you for more than an hour or two without an arrest.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.22 05:45:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Elite Marksman Verone, actually they can force you to come in for questioning. At that point you can request your lawyer. However, they can not detain you for more than an hour or two without an arrest.
Depends entirely on the charge and it's severity.
Murder, assault, attempted murder, ABH, GBH sure.
Stealing internet orc/elf/spaceship pixels? lol, yeah sure.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
CEO Character
Morphed Dynamics
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Posted - 2008.10.22 06:04:00 -
[43]
Edited by: CEO Character on 22/10/2008 06:05:37 Verone you said they had a warrant for your arrest(Not a request for questioning) in the hypothetical example, wouldn't you be forced to go regardless?
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Irish Whiskey
Caldari The Black Fleet The Black Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.22 06:23:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Irish Whiskey on 22/10/2008 06:26:23 edit bah i guess they were somewhat proper villans
too bad there aint no such thing as halfway crooks
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Adreenalina Villak
Flashpoint.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 07:18:00 -
[45]
I agree with anyone that this is completely nuts.
But its not the first time that a matter like this ended up in court, and since items in a game have real world value. It will not be the last time either we will read stories like this. The other cases I can remember were ones where the items were hacked though.
Don't bother, I already pressed the report thing for my own post. :P |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 07:24:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Adreenalina Villak I agree with anyone that this is completely nuts.
But its not the first time that a matter like this ended up in court, and since items in a game have real world value. It will not be the last time either we will read stories like this. The other cases I can remember were ones where the items were hacked though.
bloody hell read the thread
><
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 07:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Goran StarRider
Originally by: Anna Scot Im dutch and i found the following article (which is in dutch) http://www.nu.nl/news/1800169/50/Werkstraf_en_voorwaardelijk_voor_virtuele_diefstal.html
To give a quick resume: The boys did know the younger one and forced him to go to his home where they beat him up and under threat of a knife they forced him to make the transfers online.
There attorney (is this right?) claimed the items not to be actual good but the judge disagread with them.
They were also charged with threath and battering.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Anna
Well that's a huuuuuge freaking difference.
Quoting this for all the tards who fail at reading.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.22 08:55:00 -
[48]
Yes, I'll use caps so that people *might* actually understand what happened.
They THREATENED HIM IRL WITH A KNIFE.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.10.22 08:56:00 -
[49]
Foreign media forgetting the important details makes me cry
Diary of a pod pilot |
Adreenalina Villak
Flashpoint.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 10:04:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sokratesz bloody hell read the thread
I have read the thread!
Let me rephrase if you were not able to understand what I said: Its completely nuts that some kids threat another at knifepoint for a set of pixels and stats in a game.
My second sentence hints at my firm standpoint that it is also nuts that items and characters in most online games have gotten a value of real money and are sold online and outside the game itself for real money.
Eve and CCP is somewhat better in that respect with the character bazaar we have here. Cudos for that.
Don't bother, I already pressed the report thing for my own post. :P |
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mahj
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.22 10:44:00 -
[51]
the bsttery was a separate issue, if you read it through the conviction was solely about the theft. and a court doesnt care about CCPs ingame rules all they care about is did it have a value? and was it legal to sell. so steal from a dutch player at your own risk....
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Qel Hoth
Infusion. G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.22 10:50:00 -
[52]
Do you really think CCP would have to give over an IP address based on an accusation of theft in a game where theft, deceit, and murder are the primary methods of progressing?
Also, who wouldn't laugh the Dutch ambassador out of the country when he requests and extradition for "stealing virtual goods."
The only real interesting thing that would happen is to finally prove weather or not EULAs are binding contracts. ----- The above does not represent the opinions of my corp or alliance. |
Adreenalina Villak
Flashpoint.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:11:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Adreenalina Villak on 22/10/2008 11:13:09
Originally by: mahj the bsttery was a separate issue, if you read it through the conviction was solely about the theft. and a court doesnt care about CCPs ingame rules all they care about is did it have a value? and was it legal to sell. so steal from a dutch player at your own risk....
Well this wasn't one game that CCP have anything to do with. I merely made the reflection that CCP do their best to prevent things to get as out of hand as for some other games I will not mention here, but anyone could guess what I have in mind. :P
So the GTC for ISK to redistribute funds from the really rich so they wont sell ingame currency directly to ISK traders, and before mentioned character bazaar are both very good ideas of CCP.
Originally by: Qel Hoth
The only real interesting thing that would happen is to finally prove weather or not EULAs are binding contracts.
Yes that was part of the evidence brought to the court in the previous cases of virtual theft. So you are completely right it is one important issue, and the courts in question found that the EULA indeed was a binding contract. So back to the comment of Qel Hoth above, the 'ingame rules' was a thing that was part in arriving at the final verdict.
Don't bother, I already pressed the report thing for my own post. :P |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.22 11:44:00 -
[54]
Media have (as always) done a crappy job at reporting what has happened and members of this community have (as always) been speculating based on incomplete or inaccurate information. I've looked at the actual court decision and will summarise the motivation for the decision. (The original text is in Dutch, any mistakes in my English summary are probably my own.)
Charges
Charge: Suspects have stolen ingame (Runescape) items from victim; the theft was preceded by assault and battery. Suspects each deny assault and battery, each blaming the other.
It is theft?
The court establishes that virtual goods are actual goods as far as far as (Dutch) law is concerned. The court considered:
The virtual goods had value to the victim, the suspects, and many others. Value does not have to be monetary value, something conferring an advantage in a game also has value. Control over the goods was moved from the victim to the suspects. Dutch law equates 'control' with 'possession'. Council argued that it was not theft as all actions were in line with the rules of Runescape. The court disagrees as the assault and battery preceding the theft had nothing to do with the rules of Runescape.
Verdict
Based on the testimonies, the court considers the charges to be adequetely proven. Suspects get convicted for "theft preceded by assault and battery".
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 12:34:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Verdict
Based on the testimonies, the court considers the charges to be adequetely proven. Suspects get convicted for "theft preceded by assault and battery".
There, doesn't get much clearer.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Fintanyl
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Posted - 2008.10.22 13:01:00 -
[56]
http://www.theage.com.au/news/digital-life/games/articles/virtual-thieves-found-guilty/2008/10/22/1224351304722.html
full article
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.22 14:17:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 22/10/2008 14:17:51
Originally by: Verone Some of us possess something called a spine. Some of us also know our rights, and where the law stands in our country regarding things like this.
If the police came to my house regarding theft of virtual items in an online game the conversation would be more like this :
Police: You are a suspect in a criminal investigation and we have a warrant for your arrest. Please come with us. Verone: What did I do? Police: We are looking to question you in connection with theft of virtual property in an online game. Verone: You're joking, right? Police: No sir, we'd like you to come with us to the station. Verone: I'd prefer to speak to my lawyer first, I'll give him a call and seek legal advice, then come voluntarily to the station if it's reccomended I do so. If you'd like to me to come now, then I'd like to see evidence in relation to the allegations and I'll be more than happy to, otherwise I'll have to ask you to leave my property until such a time as you have an official warrant from Durham Crown Court to enter and arrest me by force.
Job's sorted really, I go back to my cuppa, they go back to their paperwork.
Well if you know your rights so well then you should know that with a warrant they can drag you off kicking and screaming and you will get to met your lawyer at the jail. Without a warrant the police can request that you show up at the station but then that has nothing to do with the example _______________
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition
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Posted - 2008.10.22 14:50:00 -
[58]
Give me ISK NOW!! Or I'll threaten you wil lazorz!!!!
Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive (in the second scenario you can't change skill tr |
soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.10.22 16:24:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius Edited by: Gordon Marinius on 22/10/2008 04:26:40 And here comes the "Only read the first post" crowd, rolling in.
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 **reserved in case i decide to flame europeans for stupid laws**
(although i am trying VERY hard not to)
Yes damn those europeans and their silly anti robbery-at-knifepoint-laws
exactly
if that were in the US, he would have gotten off scot, or nearly scot free, someone was threatening his life and he defended it, and is now in jail for the rest of his life
maybe he should have just let them crush his skull with the crowbar
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.22 16:24:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gordon Marinius I understand the morality of punishing them for theft. But I greatly question the legality of it.
Depends on whether the items were linked to a paid account. Although they are virtual items, in effect, the owner has paid for them and they are therefore as much "property" as a downloaded game from Steam etc. If the account was hacked to gain access to the virtual property, it is illegal but if it was stolen in-game by another character, it's either part of the gameplay or an exploit that the creators of the game should have fixed.
However, it does create quite a problem. Do you convict the player or the character he is using to RP in the game. I think you should fine or imprison the character if it was done in the aspect of RP and the game rules expressly forbid it. IRL, this amounts to account suspension or permaban and is the decision of the software company, not the law courts.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. |
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2008.10.22 16:42:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Mazzarins Demise on 22/10/2008 16:42:40 That news article doesn't show the entire story. Here's a good link, Here.
The case involved real world violence because they threatened him with a knife and they beat him up.
"[The media reports] omitted a few important details: The duo not only stole the virtual goods, but actually beat the other kid up and threatened him with a knife. They extorted an amulet and mask. In Runescape they're worth a lot of money and in real life people buy them for real money, which is one of the reasons the judge said it was theft. The boys were convicted for "violent theft". They lured the victim to their house, caught him in a chokehold and kicked and hit him. They used a kitchen knife to threaten the victim. Both thieves showed no regret and didn't acknowledge they did something wrong, which is never good if you find yourself in a Dutch court... The lawyers will appeal."
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.10.22 17:08:00 -
[62]
How about forgetting about the media and looking at the actual verdict?
They were convicted solely for the theft of the items, which the court deems equal as real life goods, and they were deemed innocent of the assault and violence.
Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 22/10/2008 16:58:28
Originally by: Marchocias Just to recap - this basically hasn't got anything to do with online virtual property, and is an issue to do with coercion at knifepoint.
Actually that did not have anything to do with it, under Dutch law any virtual goods that have value in one way or another are treated as real-life property.
http://www.rechtspraak.nl/Gerechten/Rechtbanken/Leeuwarden/Actualiteiten/Veroordeling+voor+diefstal+van+virtuele+goederen+uit+het+online+computerspel+RuneScape.htm
That last part is roughly translated as:
"The stolen goods consist of a virtual amulet and a virtual mask. According to the court, these virtual goods are goods as stated in article 310, thus making the offence actual theft."
From verdict:
"Article 310 has the purpose to protect civilian property. This should be kept in mind when questioning if virtual goods are goods as mentioned in the article. There are several criteria which must be met. First it is important that the good has value for the owner. This value does not have to be expressed in money.
In the current society, virtual goods from the game RuneScape are deemed important. For large amounts of online gamers these goods have value. The more virtual items a players has, the stronger he is in the game. In addition, these virtual items are traded for real life money, on the internet and on the schoolyard.
In this case, both the mask and the amulet have value for the suspect and his companion as well as the prosecutor.
In addition, it is important to note that a good does not have to be corporeal. According to jurisprudence, non-corporeal goods such as electricity and virtual money are goods. The virtual amulet and virtual mask are not corporeal goods, although they can be perceivable. In accordance with jurisprudence, this is not a limitation to treat them as goods..." ---
Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
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Gordon Marinius
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.22 17:23:00 -
[63]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 exactly
if that were in the US, he would have gotten off scot, or nearly scot free, someone was threatening his life and he defended it, and is now in jail for the rest of his life
maybe he should have just let them crush his skull with the crowbar
Quote: On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars - Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 û entered Bleak House.[3] When confronted, they attempted to flee through a window, but were shot by Martin Fearon in the leg, and Barras in the back.[1] Fearon was able to leave and obtain aid from a couple that lived near the house. He was then taken into hospital, where he was treated. Martin subsequently left the farm and fled to his mother`s house, where he hid the firearm. Later that evening, he arrived at a local inn and stayed for the night. Barras was later found dead in the grounds by a police dog
Mr Martin shot down a 16 year old that was franticly running away from him with an illegal handgun that he had no liscence for. He then left the kid to bleed to death while himself leaving the house to check into a hotel after hiding the gun at his mothers house. For your information he only served 3 years in prison. Even in the US you can only shot someone in self defense. Shooting down a burgler that is running away from you does not count. Leaving him to die instead of calling for medical attention certainly doesn't count.
Mr Martin did not defend som imaginary family against an assassin that was looking to kill him. He caught a 16 year old punk and a 29 year old trying to steal things. When they saw him they instantly ran for the open window to get out of there. One of them made it out with a bullet in the leg and the 16 year old was shot down before geting out.
Full story. _______________
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Radix Salvilines
The Gummy Bears
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Posted - 2008.10.22 17:44:00 -
[64]
Virtual world should not be ascending to the real world.
Whats virtual should remain virtual.
But if those kids forced the other kid in real life to give them the item - for that they should be punished. If they had scammed him inside the game then no - it has never happened in the real world :) ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥-☻BPINC☺-♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ |
Something Random
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.10.22 18:00:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Something Random on 22/10/2008 18:07:42
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Gordon Marinius The items are the result of real life effort. Anyway you're misinterpreting my reply.
No I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you.
You're saying that you believe morally, that these kids should be punished for stealing in an online game. I'm saying that it's stupid, and rediculous that two children should be punished for being smarter than someone else in a game...
relevant and reasoned stuff snipped
...It's pathetic to see yet again that politically correct nanny state bull**** is invading every inch of our lives.
One BIG agreement, its absolutely ridiculous.
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Brock Nelson Crap, I guess most of us are criminals by Dutch standard.
I'd love to see the police come to my door in an attempt to arrest me for something like this, they'd get told to **** off and stop wasting my time.
Sadly that would most likely result in a police dog munching on your nads and a batton to the head. You know what they are like, anything other than coming quietly isnt tolerated. Once your in there greasy paws, dripping with your dollars, your at the mercy of these pathetic outcomes.
These kids have basically been given a criminal record for nothing whatsoever. Once more... Bloody Ridiculous.
Edit : Only just read this...
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise
That news article doesn't show the entire story. Here's a good link, Here.
The case involved real world violence because they threatened him with a knife and they beat him up.
"[The media reports] omitted a few important details: The duo not only stole the virtual goods, but actually beat the other kid up and threatened him with a knife. They extorted an amulet and mask. In Runescape they're worth a lot of money and in real life people buy them for real money, which is one of the reasons the judge said it was theft. The boys were convicted for "violent theft". They lured the victim to their house, caught him in a chokehold and kicked and hit him. They used a kitchen knife to threaten the victim. Both thieves showed no regret and didn't acknowledge they did something wrong, which is never good if you find yourself in a Dutch court... The lawyers will appeal."
Which changes things considerably. Now it doesnt seem such a stupid verdict and the actual items and there origin are merely secondary to armed assault. The sentence should have been jail in this case, much tougher than community service at least.
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TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.22 18:01:00 -
[66]
hmmm should the above be on here? i mean its all well and good when known p!k3y/ career criminals get what they deserve. in all honesty they should all be deported back to IRE. im sure the IRA and other local non-official law enforement groups will welcome them back with open arms to where they belong. i remember they found one car thief at the entrance to a housing estate crucified on a telegraph poll(litterly)! it took the garda/fire brigade some time to get him down what a waste of police time, should have left him there for a day or so.
if they did that to them across the UK we could have a major impact on crime. i mean how embarrissing to be found nailed up for doing something nasty against the public... bring back the STOCKS!
CCP made little baby jesus cry by nerfing ghost training
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:02:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Bagehi on 22/10/2008 20:03:05 Ah, threatened the kid with a knife? Well that changes things a bit.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.22 22:20:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
How about forgetting about the media and looking at the actual verdict?
They were convicted solely for the theft of the items, which the court deems equal as real life goods, and they were deemed innocent of the assault and violence.
I guess you missed the part where it says "Het bewezene levert op het misdrijf: primair diefstal, voorafgegaan en vergezeld van geweld en bedreiging met geweld tegen personen"
So they were convicted for the theft as well as the assault and battery, though the theft is the 'main' crime. Elsewhere in the verdict it's also mentioned that the court considers the assault and battery to be proven.
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Lord Zoran
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2008.10.22 22:40:00 -
[69]
harsh, but ah well could've been worse.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.10.23 01:25:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise Edited by: Mazzarins Demise on 22/10/2008 16:42:40 That news article doesn't show the entire story. Here's a good link, Here.
The case involved real world violence because they threatened him with a knife and they beat him up.
"[The media reports] omitted a few important details: The duo not only stole the virtual goods, but actually beat the other kid up and threatened him with a knife. They extorted an amulet and mask. In Runescape they're worth a lot of money and in real life people buy them for real money, which is one of the reasons the judge said it was theft. The boys were convicted for "violent theft". They lured the victim to their house, caught him in a chokehold and kicked and hit him. They used a kitchen knife to threaten the victim. Both thieves showed no regret and didn't acknowledge they did something wrong, which is never good if you find yourself in a Dutch court... The lawyers will appeal."
now if this was included in the first post, we wouldnt have had any flaming
i will now, remove my post
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.10.23 01:27:00 -
[71]
Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 23/10/2008 01:26:51
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 exactly
if that were in the US, he would have gotten off scot, or nearly scot free, someone was threatening his life and he defended it, and is now in jail for the rest of his life
maybe he should have just let them crush his skull with the crowbar
Quote: On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars - Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 û entered Bleak House.[3] When confronted, they attempted to flee through a window, but were shot by Martin Fearon in the leg, and Barras in the back.[1] Fearon was able to leave and obtain aid from a couple that lived near the house. He was then taken into hospital, where he was treated. Martin subsequently left the farm and fled to his mother`s house, where he hid the firearm. Later that evening, he arrived at a local inn and stayed for the night. Barras was later found dead in the grounds by a police dog
Mr Martin shot down a 16 year old that was franticly running away from him with an illegal handgun that he had no liscence for. He then left the kid to bleed to death while himself leaving the house to check into a hotel after hiding the gun at his mothers house. For your information he only served 3 years in prison. Even in the US you can only shot someone in self defense. Shooting down a burgler that is running away from you does not count. Leaving him to die instead of calling for medical attention certainly doesn't count.
Mr Martin did not defend som imaginary family against an assassin that was looking to kill him. He caught a 16 year old punk and a 29 year old trying to steal things. When they saw him they instantly ran for the open window to get out of there. One of them made it out with a bullet in the leg and the 16 year old was shot down before geting out.
Full story.
wikipedia ftw i guess
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Reverend Void
White Wolf Enterprises Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2008.10.23 02:09:00 -
[72]
Associated Press screwed up, omitting the key details of what happened, creating a chain reaction of the situation being misconstrued. It was the only English language source at the time. Anyone who read that -- myself included -- would assume that the incident was that of virtual threats resulting in virtual theft. Should be no big deal right? Followed by a chorus of voices uttering, "It's so bizarre, the courts there punish virtual theft!" That was the impression and angle most everyone ran with on this.
So the community service the two kids got was based partly on the fact that they used real-life threats and actual violence, and also the fact that the court recognized the virtual items the younger boy was forced to give up as being 'property'.
The defense: nothing was stolen because those items don't exist. They're not real, so they can't be stolen.
The prosecution: the boy had these items before the defendants entered into the picture. after the threats and violence, those items were gone. the fact that something he possessed was taken from him qualifies the items as being 'real' in the eyes of the law, and thus punishable.
Prosecution wins. Community service for the wannabe thugs. Does it set a precedent now? Not sure, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:08:00 -
[73]
Ahaha, on man.
So glad work provides a free legal defense team.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 07:24:00 -
[74]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 23/10/2008 01:26:51
Originally by: Gordon Marinius
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 exactly
if that were in the US, he would have gotten off scot, or nearly scot free, someone was threatening his life and he defended it, and is now in jail for the rest of his life
maybe he should have just let them crush his skull with the crowbar
Quote: On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars - Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 û entered Bleak House.[3] When confronted, they attempted to flee through a window, but were shot by Martin Fearon in the leg, and Barras in the back.[1] Fearon was able to leave and obtain aid from a couple that lived near the house. He was then taken into hospital, where he was treated. Martin subsequently left the farm and fled to his mother`s house, where he hid the firearm. Later that evening, he arrived at a local inn and stayed for the night. Barras was later found dead in the grounds by a police dog
Mr Martin shot down a 16 year old that was franticly running away from him with an illegal handgun that he had no liscence for. He then left the kid to bleed to death while himself leaving the house to check into a hotel after hiding the gun at his mothers house. For your information he only served 3 years in prison. Even in the US you can only shot someone in self defense. Shooting down a burgler that is running away from you does not count. Leaving him to die instead of calling for medical attention certainly doesn't count.
Mr Martin did not defend som imaginary family against an assassin that was looking to kill him. He caught a 16 year old punk and a 29 year old trying to steal things. When they saw him they instantly ran for the open window to get out of there. One of them made it out with a bullet in the leg and the 16 year old was shot down before geting out.
Full story.
wikipedia ftw i guess
Someone here linked the story on some flag hugging bible thumping site and they made it to look completely different..lmao
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