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Mysteriax
Scoopex
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mysteriax on 27/10/2008 00:18:07 Its no secret that Minmatar like the Gallente racr is getting butchered in this patch. Unlike Gallente, Minmatar has no useful ships left now (don't name Frigs or T1 Cruisers, I do not consider them good meaningful ships).
Minmatar has the worst: Capital ships, currently everyone in the game agrees on this. But we have one Vertical one.
The worst Battleships, Phoon may be considered descent but needs 35 million SP and is outclassed by the Raven.
The worst T2 Cruisers. Besides the Broadsword no Minmatar T2 cruiser will be useful after this patch. The vaga although fast was never really dangerous to start with since it has to slow down to do actual DPS.
The worst Battlecruisers. I love the cane like everyone else but it simply gets outshined by every other T2 battlecruiser besides the myrm. And for the cyclone.... I cant remember seeing anyone fly in one for ages.
The worst Weapon System. Projectile turrets, well there has been many threads about this one no explanation needed yet CCP is doing nothing.
The Worst Sniper ship. Currently the Maelstrom is the best snipership Minmatar has. It has bad Range bad Tracking and it cant fit a descent tank while doing so, plus it also has to be shield tanked. If the range rigs stop stacking Minmatar will likely be hit hardest by it.
Split weapon Systems. Allot of minmatar ships have split weapon systems The Nag and the phoon are most known for it. Besides it takes ages to skill it doesnt seem to work very well. The phoon is descent at best and the nag... well I pity the person who trained there skills for it
The Worst Marauder. Powergrid issues decimate the Vargur. Even if it could fit arties really well the DPS is nothing compared to the others.
Worst Mission boats. The minmatar line of ships are not really suited for missions, sure they can do a mission but it will be with allot more effort (trying to get transversal down) and with allot less speed then the other races.
So is CCP going to do anything because originally the Minmatars main specialty, speed has been hit with the nerf bat. Also its EWAR got nerfed and no Target painting is no real EWAR. So any changes or should I just quit with my Minmatar only character. Gallente and there blasters seem to be getting most of the attention but I do not see minmatar threads here. Have my fellow Minmatar brethren given up the fight? If not show your support.
CCP please tell what your plans for the matari race is, if any. If there are no plans please say so aswell so I can sell my Minmatar character to some sucker.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:21:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2008 00:22:39 Minmatar are fine. Don't you read the dev blogs and dev posts? :)
-Liang
Ed: In order to not strictly troll you, CCP Zulupark has said that Minmatar/projectiles are fine, there are not any turret damage problems, they do plenty of damage, and have variable damage types (which weighs far more heavily in their mind than ever suspected).
Also, since he's gotten 400 questions related to Minmatar/Projectiles, he's passed them along to the balance team. The thread is a sticky in General Discussion. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Evan Batarr
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Posted - 2008.10.27 00:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/10/2008 00:36:05
Originally by: Mysteriax
The Worst Sniper ship. Currently the Maelstrom is the best snipership Minmatar has. It has bad Range bad Tracking and it cant fit a descent tank while doing so, plus it also has to be shield tanked. If the range rigs stop stacking Minmatar will likely be hit hardest by it.
Not only likely ! For sure! You are spot on regarding current fleet fights (needing the ability to lock and shoot over 200 km and being DD-tanked). The Maelstrom is the only Minmatar BS currently being able to do so (with 3 Locus Rigs) but has sh*tty DPS - after the rigs are stacking nerfed Minnie pilots are doomed to train amarr or caldari (apoc, rokh) if they want to participate in 0.0 fleet warfare. Well, why do I waste my time posting. As if CCP would listen . I just have to remember how long it took them to 'fix' amarr (which are now 'overpowered').
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: In order to not strictly troll you, CCP Zulupark has said that Minmatar/projectiles are fine, there are not any turret damage problems, they do plenty of damage, and have variable damage types (which weighs far more heavily in their mind than ever suspected).
Well, that's exactly what they said about Amarr for years |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:08:00 -
[4]
The locus rig whould not be seen as a but. Should be seen as the Only thing done correctly in the weapons rigs. OR doe s ANYEONE use the other rigs? (ok a very few use the falloff one but just because there is no module for that)
Rigs that have WAY worse bonus than the modules, stack nerfed along with modules and with HUGE drawback... equals TOTAL FAIL, total waste of development time of players time of database of everything!
CCP should seriously see the status of locus rigs are the Correct one and change the other weapon rigs to match it. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Evan Batarr Well, that's exactly what they said about Amarr for years
I underlined the sad bit. ;-)
-Liang |
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Rigs that have WAY worse bonus than the modules, stack nerfed along with modules and with HUGE drawback... equals TOTAL FAIL, total waste of development time of players time of database of everything!
Rigs are supposed to have major drawbacks, so that they dont become yet another expensive must-have-to-survive item. They arent simply extra module slots for people with 50mil isk to spend. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.10.27 01:54:00 -
[7]
But Minmatar are versatile, right? and that's awesome, right? and you don't need to be specialized and fill a distinct role in a massive multiplayer game, right? and... oh god I'm losing the crowd... it's getting ugly.
>> flees
No wait... Matari were always ugly, hell I'd go so far as to say they were revolting
/RP
I'll get my coat. |
Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:01:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 27/10/2008 02:02:04 Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 27/10/2008 02:01:47 But minnie got the vaga!
Question: with the agility rebalancing of gallente ships, did they take a look at minmatar agility too? What I like most about minmatar is their speed and perhaps even more importantly agility. I can't test right now but was this looked at at all? |
Evan Batarr
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/10/2008 02:14:14
Originally by: Del Narveux
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Rigs that have WAY worse bonus than the modules, stack nerfed along with modules and with HUGE drawback... equals TOTAL FAIL, total waste of development time of players time of database of everything!
Rigs are supposed to have major drawbacks, so that they dont become yet another expensive must-have-to-survive item. They arent simply extra module slots for people with 50mil isk to spend.
Well, actually Locus Rigs are pretty cheap. And if you'd read my post you'd notice that they are ALREADY a 'must have' - at least for Minmatar Fleet BS pilots. And BTW - you obviously didn't read the post you replied to, too . Try again!
Originally by: Nuts Nougat But minnie got the vaga!
I can only hope you're joking
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mysteriax The Worst Sniper ship. Currently the Maelstrom is the best snipership Minmatar has. It has bad Range bad Tracking and it cant fit a descent tank while doing so, plus it also has to be shield tanked. If the range rigs stop stacking Minmatar will likely be hit hardest by it.
I can understand most of what you said except one thing. Sniping battleships don't tank. ------ FIX THE BLOODY OVERVIEW ALREADY! SPEED NERF! RUN FOR THE HILLS! |
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Takon Orlani
Caldari Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:52:00 -
[11]
Obviously OP has never fitted a proper PVE mael
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Evan Batarr
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Posted - 2008.10.27 02:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Koyama Ise
Originally by: Mysteriax The Worst Sniper ship. Currently the Maelstrom is the best snipership Minmatar has. It has bad Range bad Tracking and it cant fit a descent tank while doing so, plus it also has to be shield tanked. If the range rigs stop stacking Minmatar will likely be hit hardest by it.
I can understand most of what you said except one thing. Sniping battleships don't tank.
Well, I have news for you - THEY DO. And they must with every 10 man alliance having a titan already! And even if there's no titan in sys you may have an advantage with a tank AND being able to hit over 200 km. Although I admit if the enemy fleet is big enough, can shoot at same range and know how to focus fire a tanked BS will be alphaed just as quick as a non-tanked BS. If not they lose. Plain and simple. And it's not even hard to do so - as long as you're amarr or caldari and fly apoc or rokh. It even works with a mega. And currently with a Mael. After the rig nerf it will still work for the first three - but not for minmatar.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.27 04:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren since he's gotten 400 questions related to Minmatar/Projectiles, he's passed them along to the balance team.
However, his response to my questions about balance methodology leave me uneasy about the rigour of the balancing process, and I'm a little irked with myself that the busy weekend I've just had has left me unable to follow-up.
I'm also irked that I didn't phrase the 'order of precedence' question better - simply put, I was trying to find out if some races are deliberately underpowered in some ship classes. |
Evan Batarr
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Posted - 2008.10.27 04:33:00 -
[14]
UPDATE:
This is what CCP zulupark answers to the question why exactly he keeps on repeating the Tempest is fine as it is:
Tempest: It's fine as a long range sniper, either in fleets or small pirating gatecamps. It's fine as a 1on1 or small gang warfare close range boat. It's fine for npc'ing and running missions. That's my opinion, others may of course not agree :)
Well, I tend NOT to agree. At least on most parts. But mainly I disagree to judge ships 'out of context', meaning not comparing them to what the other races have. The answer clearly shows that the guys at CCP obviously have not nearly enough insight to their own game. - the Tempest WAS a good long range sniper but through introducing scripts (nerfing SB's etc.), by changing the boni of the apoc and the increasing number of titans it's no longer a valid choice as a long range sniper. You just have to check killboards to see that. Whoever can is sitting in an apoc today - more range, more dps, no need to reload in laggy environment, good tank - for 1:1 it's not bad but with the upcoming changes 1 on 1 in BS is history anyway (and I'd take a Typh over a Temp in 1:1 any day) - for NPCing or missioning the Maelstrom is a much better choice
At least he didn't say it was a good ship for small gangs 'cause everybody knows that a Maelstrom is an awesome ship if it doesn't need to tackle. The Tempest does not even remotely compare to a Mael in small gang warefare. Even a Typh is better IMO.
So - where is the role for the Temp?
Give it a better locking range, change one of the dmg boni for a range bonus and you have a half-decent (although still sub par) sniper again. To be in line with an apoc it would need a low for a med slot or a significant PG boost!
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Hul'ka
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:09:00 -
[15]
naah, Zulu has proven himself before, as did Nozh in this last "fixes"
Maelstrom is even better for 1vs1, even if he has to tacle, and it can be fitted better for sniping. Only reason any minmatar pilot should fly Tempest over phoon is high sp required by the Phoon. Hell, i'm a 2,5 years old minmatar speced char and still i don+t have all the drones and missile skill to be able to fly phoon in full effectiveness :p
No, Zulu, tempest is not fine, and minmatars are not fine either! |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:34:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kalintos Tyl on 27/10/2008 06:38:27 galante bs 0 galante turets 0
mega does 50% more dadamge in eft than my tempest. Yep its fine. /sarcasm off
minmatar bs agility was narfed, Caldari is most agile then galante then minmatar then Amar. They got mass increse. Only speed advantage is base speed, mwd is cut by mass. SO i wil lskill mega i supouse. Better tracking, better optimal, better damage outpot, same tank. Sure very balanced boat ...
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SirDanceAlot
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mysteriax Edited by: Mysteriax on 27/10/2008 00:18:07 Its no secret that Minmatar like the Gallente racr is getting butchered in this patch. Unlike Gallente, Minmatar has no useful ships left now (don't name Frigs or T1 Cruisers, I do not consider them good meaningful ships).
Minmatar has the worst: Capital ships, currently everyone in the game agrees on this. But we have one Vertical one.
The worst Battleships, Phoon may be considered descent but needs 35 million SP and is outclassed by the Raven.
The worst T2 Cruisers. Besides the Broadsword no Minmatar T2 cruiser will be useful after this patch. The vaga although fast was never really dangerous to start with since it has to slow down to do actual DPS.
The worst Battlecruisers. I love the cane like everyone else but it simply gets outshined by every other T2 battlecruiser besides the myrm. And for the cyclone.... I cant remember seeing anyone fly in one for ages.
The worst Weapon System. Projectile turrets, well there has been many threads about this one no explanation needed yet CCP is doing nothing.
The Worst Sniper ship. Currently the Maelstrom is the best snipership Minmatar has. It has bad Range bad Tracking and it cant fit a descent tank while doing so, plus it also has to be shield tanked. If the range rigs stop stacking Minmatar will likely be hit hardest by it.
Split weapon Systems. Allot of minmatar ships have split weapon systems The Nag and the phoon are most known for it. Besides it takes ages to skill it doesnt seem to work very well. The phoon is descent at best and the nag... well I pity the person who trained there skills for it
The Worst Marauder. Powergrid issues decimate the Vargur. Even if it could fit arties really well the DPS is nothing compared to the others.
Worst Mission boats. The minmatar line of ships are not really suited for missions, sure they can do a mission but it will be with allot more effort (trying to get transversal down) and with allot less speed then the other races.
So is CCP going to do anything because originally the Minmatars main specialty, speed has been hit with the nerf bat. Also its EWAR got nerfed and no Target painting is no real EWAR. So any changes or should I just quit with my Minmatar only character. Gallente and there blasters seem to be getting most of the attention but I do not see minmatar threads here. Have my fellow Minmatar brethren given up the fight? If not show your support.
CCP please tell what your plans for the matari race is, if any. If there are no plans please say so aswell so I can sell my Minmatar character to some sucker.
Wow, that's alot of words for "I suck at flying minmatar so overpower our ships please" |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.27 06:47:00 -
[18]
go to see balster thread and say that. They outperfom in every way. And still are ok becouse you fly galante ? |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.10.27 07:36:00 -
[19]
ITT: Gallente and Minmatar in the same boat arguing about whose half of it is sinking fastest. |
Evan Batarr
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Posted - 2008.10.27 07:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SirDanceAlot
Originally by: Mysteriax Lotsa words
Wow, that's alot of words for "I suck at flying minmatar so overpower our ships please"
Wow, what a lot of words for 'I have no idea what I'm talking about but feel like trolling' |
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Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.27 09:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Evan Batarr
Originally by: Nuts Nougat But minnie got the vaga!
I can only hope you're joking
Someone who understands sarcasm at least :P
Has anyone done any tests on SiSi btw? Does stabber still turn like a battleship? This is very important for me as I tend to end up in sketchy situations often, since I often engage people under sentries, and NEED the agility to get out when their backup jumps in. ---
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Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.10.27 10:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Evan Batarr
You are spot on regarding current fleet fights needing the ability to lock and shoot over 200 km and being DD-tanked (not that the rest of your post was wrong - au contraire). The Maelstrom is the only Minmatar BS currently being able to do so (with 3 Locus Rigs) but has sh*tty DPS - after the rigs are stacking nerfed Minnie pilots are doomed to train amarr or caldari (apoc, rokh) if they want to participate in 0.0 fleet warfare.
That's narrow-minded. If 200Km were OK in the nano age, 100-150Km sniping will be sufficient after the nerf. Tempests can hit fine at 150Km without any optimal rigs/modules (yeah, in falloff...), so unless FCs will keep demanding from you to gimp your ships to hit 50Km farther, Minmatar Fleet BS will be fine. Unlike the pitiful rest of the ships ...
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Mysteriax
Scoopex
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:43:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Mysteriax on 27/10/2008 13:44:15
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Evan Batarr
You are spot on regarding current fleet fights needing the ability to lock and shoot over 200 km and being DD-tanked (not that the rest of your post was wrong - au contraire). The Maelstrom is the only Minmatar BS currently being able to do so (with 3 Locus Rigs) but has sh*tty DPS - after the rigs are stacking nerfed Minnie pilots are doomed to train amarr or caldari (apoc, rokh) if they want to participate in 0.0 fleet warfare.
That's narrow-minded. If 200Km were OK in the nano age, 100-150Km sniping will be sufficient after the nerf. Tempests can hit fine at 150Km without any optimal rigs/modules (yeah, in falloff...), so unless FCs will keep demanding from you to gimp your ships to hit 50Km farther, Minmatar Fleet BS will be fine. Unlike the pitiful rest of the ships ...
How will Minmatar snipers be fine if others start to shoot at 200km. Even at 150 km they are fighting in Falloff which reduces the little DPS the Minmatar snipers have to pathetic levels. Unfortunately when I am using my tempest or mael as fleet sniper I often have to tank DDs. So I only have room for 2 Gyrostabs since I need 2 plates and 3 trimarks on my tempest so I dont even have locust rigs. On my Mael I have to sacrifice allot aswell to tank DDs. More then I would have for any other race. I get DD'ed allot so not being able to tank one is suicide. So if I was specced any other race I would be shoot further, shoot harder, hit more and tank more. But Zulapark says the Tempest is a good sniper....
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.27 16:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Del Narveux
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Rigs that have WAY worse bonus than the modules, stack nerfed along with modules and with HUGE drawback... equals TOTAL FAIL, total waste of development time of players time of database of everything!
Rigs are supposed to have major drawbacks, so that they dont become yet another expensive must-have-to-survive item. They arent simply extra module slots for people with 50mil isk to spend.
Then why CC rigs have no drawbacks?
This simply does not cut. Trimakrs and CC rigs are awesome.. weaposn rigs are PLAIN uselles because there is no ship that has SPARE pg to use them. Oo ther is one but its a shield tanker so it usually already had 3 Gyro at its low slots...
So they are FAIL as a game desing product. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.27 16:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf ITT: Gallente and Minmatar in the same boat arguing about whose half of it is sinking fastest.
QFT.. haha
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Mysteriax
Scoopex
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Posted - 2008.10.27 18:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Mysteriax on 27/10/2008 18:17:47
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf ITT: Gallente and Minmatar in the same boat arguing about whose half of it is sinking fastest.
QFT.. haha
-Liang
Although true it seems to me there are plenty of Gallente topics but minmatar really has none.
We had some good ones a while back like the projectile turret topic, but lately it just seems we have given up. Now with the mass changes minmatar will also have the most bulky battleships. Most ships where buffed by the changes but the worst battleships ingame got nerfed??
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.27 18:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mysteriax
Although true it seems to me there are plenty of Gallente topics but minmatar really has none.
We had some good ones a while back like the projectile turret topic, but lately it just seems we have given up. Now with the mass changes minmatar will also have the most bulky battleships. Most ships where buffed by the changes but the worst battleships ingame got nerfed??
IMO, blaster based battleships are replacing Minnie BS's as "worst in game". I will admit that I too was disappointed with the Minnie forum members who stopped posting in favor of some Minnie love, but I can't say I'm really surprised or that I have plans to keep posting.
At this point, I'm mostly here for the lulz and to see if I can derail this great Catastrophe that CCP is throwing at its own game. I suppose I'm doing it for the community at large, though I'm sure that certain parts of the community don't see me as representing their interests.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Mysteriax
Scoopex
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Posted - 2008.10.27 18:28:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Mysteriax on 27/10/2008 18:28:48 The difference is the mega and Hype actually make decent snipers. Even with all the nerfs blaster ships will still be viable if the team has enough tackling. With its dronebay it can field 5 repairbots and remote armor rep well in a sniper gang.
Plus unlike minmatar gallente actually have some decent capital ships. But blaster boats will be hit very hard by this no doubt, to hard imo.
Also the gallente have the Dominix like we have the typhoon 2 very versatile ships and imo the domi is better and cheaper then a typhoon.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.27 19:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Liang Nuren At this point, I'm mostly here for the lulz and to see if I can derail this great Catastrophe that CCP is throwing at its own game.
Unfortunately, why would CCP take any notice of your opinion if you have basically said you're going to leave anyway? By clearly stating this you've effectively given them sufficient reason to discount you.
At the moment, it looks like CCP is unwilling to make any broad changes until it's hit TQ and it's possible to datamine statistics on how tactics and engagement results have changed.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.27 19:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Elaron
Unfortunately, why would CCP take any notice of your opinion if you have basically said you're going to leave anyway? By clearly stating this you've effectively given them sufficient reason to discount you.
At the moment, it looks like CCP is unwilling to make any broad changes until it's hit TQ and it's possible to datamine statistics on how tactics and engagement results have changed.
They can discount me but they can't really discount my ideas and knowledge of the game. Even being here (I am still a paying customer until freaking *MARCH*), they don't have any choice but to answer or ignore me. And by ignoring me, they make me more powerful than they can even imagine!!! May the Force be with you!
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
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