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Punaineefor Gaius
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:01:00 -
[1]
Why are the T2 BPO's still in game, if there are no more to be distributed. It is an unfair practice and advantage to keep them in game. It is unfair for people who are just starting in industry to have to compete against those people who have them. If they were still to be released as before, then I would have no problem. But there is no way for anyone new to industry to get these BPO's so what is the advantage to keeping them in game?
Why not do a database clean up and make all T2 BPO's 100 run BPC's to compensate for their loss.
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:11:00 -
[2]
The T2 bpo's in eve do nothing to decrease the prices of modules or ships in eve so its not a worry or a problem especially when you consider the player owning one spent multiple billions on it.
Also T2 bpo's come up for auction quite often so buy one if you think you will come even close to making your money back on it.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:12:00 -
[3]
Please learn to search... please, for your own sanity and everyone else's. This issue has been argued back and forth so many times now it's no longer even amusing let alone fruitful.
Yes you currently can't get T2 BPOs, yes this is a problem in terms of equal opportunity (as opposed to equality, for the idiots out there who think the two terms mean the same thing), yes the things are stupidly overpriced because they are no longer being added into the game, yes invention is a stop-gap band-aid that sort-of solved the lottery problem, and yes it'd be nice to clean it all up and have a proper system. Goumindong proposed one a few threads back.
No, it's not going to happen any time soon, unless the Quantum Rise release has had some major features kept quiet. |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:20:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Murina The T2 bpo's in eve do nothing to decrease the prices of modules or ships in eve so its not a worry or a problem especially when you consider the player owning one spent multiple billions on it.
Also T2 bpo's come up for auction quite often so buy one if you think you will come even close to making your money back on it.
This is a circular argument. Artificially inflated BPO prices are the reason why people don't seek them, and why they don't make money back, and thus the supply is low and the price is artificially inflated.
The problem isn't that some people have the T2 BPOs, it's that they are a limited unique commodity like State Ravens, and therefore unbalanced, and in the proper game-design sense of the word, unfair. Now nobody cares about things like State Ravens because to employ them entails some risk that someone might blow it up. There is no equivalent risk to T2 BPOs.
If the current circumstance is not unfair, as some like to suggest, then I would like to see their proposal on how we should be removing all T1 BPOs from NPC sales and have them as a limited commodity. Lets have the entire system based on that. I'm game - I own quite a few BPOs. I'm less sure the EVE community would like the result.
We either need a system where T2 BPOs are once again injected into the game, or removal of them. I don't mind which, but the half-way house we're in at the moment isn't a good place to be. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Punaineefor Gaius
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:44:00 -
[5]
Wow.. didnt know there was such passion already concerning this topic. I have been pvping solid for 3 years now, and am just getting started on training for industry, since new aspect of game for me. Then I find out about the T2 BPO's that are in game, and I discussed among others. Figures along with everything that needs attention, this is yet another topic on a long list of issues. I for one, if had them would not want them to go away, and since I don't have them, ofcourse I want them gone.
I guess wheter pvp or industrialist.. it is all fail..
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.27 13:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth waaa i dont have one nerf nerf
fixed.
Now go away.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Murina Now go away.
Amusing, considering I have commented on and discussed in vastly more threads specifically to do with BPOs than I remember you ever doing. I don't believe T2 BPOs give any specific advantage to the player that owns them (I once did, years ago, but have learned much since then); inventors typically compete with other inventors. That is not my point. Since you missed my point the first time I'll try again, at the risk of this turning into yet another T2 BPO slanging match. Here, I'll do it in bold and separated for you:
The lack of T2 BPO injection represents a balance problem in the same way as any other lack of availability. Ownership is irrelevant.
Simple, no? The equivalent would be, say, battleships. From tomorrow, there are no more buildable in the game, any existing that remain become limited collectors commodities. This isn't a good principle for the game. A balanced economy thrives on equal opportunity - where anybody can do anything, but it takes the skilled and intelligent to do well. Anyone can trade, but a skilled trader maximises their profit. Simply saying 'no you can't do that, but they can' is not a good long-term decision. We needed the end of the lottery, invention was a stop-gap measure, but a suitable alternative that addressed both problems would be good. Now you can go claiming it's because I don't own one all you like, but any idiot who knows anything about the subject will tell you that I don't need to own one, because my competition isn't the BPO owners at all. |
Seth Ruin
Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth The equivalent would be, say, battleships. From tomorrow, there are no more buildable in the game, any existing that remain become limited collectors commodities.
No, that isn't an equivalent. It's nowhere near an equivalent. The only difference between a T2 BPO and invented T2 BPCs is the BPO requires less work and in very rare cases (ships mostly), less materials. They both produce the same item.
The Opux Luxury Yacht, and to a lesser extent, the Apotheosis are both items that aren't "buildable" or "seeded" in game that some players have while others don't. Why haven't you complained about those? |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
A balanced economy thrives on equal opportunity - where anybody can do anything, but it takes the skilled and intelligent to do well.
Owning a t2 bpo may give the person using it a small benefit relative to a individual without one but to claim or imply that the economy of eve suffers because of them is utterly absurd as it is way to large to be effected in any significant way by a limited few players ability to produce a few items at a marginally reduced cost. |
Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:26:00 -
[10]
I think this is the perfect time to let you to know, that like life, EVE is not fair. |
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Seth Ruin No, that isn't an equivalent. It's nowhere near an equivalent. The only difference between a T2 BPO and invented T2 BPCs is the BPO requires less work and in very rare cases (ships mostly), less materials. They both produce the same item.
I respectively disagree over this. There wouldn't be so much complaint about the invention producing negative ME and PE when the subject is brought up if this were true. ME and PE research can make enormous differences. They also don't produce the same item; invention has a chance of producing either BPO when there are variations available. This is both a good and bad thing - it gives you flexibility, something the BPO owner lacks, but equally if one result is selling well and another is not, you have a series of BPCs which are not profitable, cutting into your bottom line.
To be fair, yes my example failed to include invention, and I apologise for that. It would be more accurate to use an analogy of (analogies for this are hard, it's quite a unique scenario) lets say, a skill. Production Efficiency for players around pre-2007 gave a certain percentage increase, and the new Production Efficiency has a lower percentage. Does this mean they can't compete? Of course not. It would however probably be viewed as inappropriate.
Originally by: Seth Ruin The Opux Luxury Yacht, and to a lesser extent, the Apotheosis are both items that aren't "buildable" or "seeded" in game that some players have while others don't. Why haven't you complained about those?
Already covered. Ships can be blown up - unique or rare ones have a risk associated with them attached to their high price tag. There is nothing in principle wrong with limited commodities if everything is limited - having an economy where some items are genuinely limited (X amount in-game ever) and some items are unlimited is harder to manage and balance.
Meh we're just repeating the same arguments that have been in every thread ever about this. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.27 14:44:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 27/10/2008 14:46:05 Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 27/10/2008 14:44:37
Originally by: Straight Chillen I think this is the perfect time to let you to know, that like life, EVE is not fair.
Oh really? So you'd be quite comfortable with introducing a system where quite randomly, your character can suffer an attribute point loss due to some virtual disease? That's not particularly fair. Analogies between real life and EVE are always fatally flawed. EVE is incredibly fair. It has to be, any game has to be, in order for people to even begin to play it. Of course, individual actions can have unfair consequences, but therein lies my point - everyone has that chance to be fair or unfair, fair or unfairly treated by their fellow player. Equality of opportunity.
Originally by: Murina Owning a t2 bpo may give the person using it a small benefit relative to a individual without one but to claim or imply that the economy of eve suffers because of them is utterly absurd as it is way to large to be effected in any significant way by a limited few players ability to produce a few items at a marginally reduced cost.
I didn't allege that it affects the entire economy in a huge way; you're putting words into my mouth. Balance is different from 'huge effect'. I could accept the notion that the imbalance is sufficiently small that we need not worry about it (remember, I am not actively stating 'I want a T2 BPO' - I am coming at this from a perspective of good game design) - that does not diminish that as design decisions go, removing the lottery but not taking out the T2 BPOs resulting from it was a poor one. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2008.10.27 17:19:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 27/10/2008 17:22:05
@topic: oh no.. not again
Ok, I'll keep it short. 1. Please compare Heavy Assault Ships and Heavy Interdictors. 2. If you don't want to 'compete' with T2 BPO holders, just invent the ships/modules which have no T2 BPO. (Your) Problem solved. In case you didn't know, yes, there are T2 items without a BPO..
-edit- To answer your question: they are still in game, because since inventions they don't have any serious impact on the T2 market anymore. |
Barbens
Sky Net Industries Pure.
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Posted - 2008.10.27 19:32:00 -
[14]
Its because you touch yourself at night when you think no one is looking...
BaRbEnS
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Dadder
Cynomein Fleetyards
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Posted - 2008.10.29 21:40:00 -
[15]
Im in full agreement with Punaineefor on this one. I spent a full year doing research missions and collecting RP before the lottery was ended and i never hit once. Ok, im not so lucky, nothing new. But once i start to accumulate the wealth to be able to buy one, insertion stops and the prices skyrocket.
All T2 BPOs should be converted to BPC's with runs depending on the type of blueprint. ie, 5000 runs for ammo, 1000 runs for modules, 500 runs for frigates and so on.
The only people who would be hurt by this change would be those who have LONG benefited by having these isk making machines. |
Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.29 21:49:00 -
[16]
When we get rid of T2 BPOs, can we get rid of State Ravens, Tribal Tempests, Fedathrons and Impocs too please? They aren't adding any more of those to the game and it's unfair that I can't have one.
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Dadder
Cynomein Fleetyards
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Posted - 2008.10.29 21:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dianeces When we get rid of T2 BPOs, can we get rid of State Ravens, Tribal Tempests, Fedathrons and Impocs too please? They aren't adding any more of those to the game and it's unfair that I can't have one.
Do State Ravens, Tribal Tempests, Fadathrons, and Impocs make you considerably more isk then having normal ships? I don't see too many people out missioning or ratting in these ships because of their isk income potential... |
CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.10.29 22:44:00 -
[18]
Edited by: CornerStoner on 29/10/2008 22:50:13 This topic has been debated ad nauseum with the same results and facts. Consider the cost of a T2 BPO and the time to break even on it.
T2 BPO's vs T2 BPC's - What Tech2 BPO owners don't want you to know...
Read that thread and then come back and say T2 BPOs are unfair.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2008.10.29 23:15:00 -
[19]
There are people that spend billions, if not trillions, on T2 speedmod BPO's. Think they earned it back before CCP announced the nano nerf?
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Dadder
Cynomein Fleetyards
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Posted - 2008.10.29 23:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CornerStoner Edited by: CornerStoner on 29/10/2008 22:50:13 This topic has been debated ad nauseum with the same results and facts. Consider the cost of a T2 BPO and the time to break even on it.
Read that thread and then come back and say T2 BPOs are unfair.
A quote from that thread from a t2 bpo owner:
"I would like to react as a t2 bpo owner that did a little invetion herself.
work: it take's quite a bit work to make a lot of t1 bpc's, do the invetion jobs and make the short building jobs evry day.
So yes you can make more profit with ivention but i rather inject my bpo for 30 day's at redcued cost. my 20 sec vs your.......Shocked i don't want to know. Than i still have 9 build slots left to use some other t2 bpo i own."
Considering most of the people who have T2 bpos never bought them in the first place...
T2 BPOs are unfair |
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.30 00:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dadder
Do State Ravens, Tribal Tempests, Fadathrons, and Impocs make you considerably more isk then having normal ships? I don't see too many people out missioning or ratting in these ships because of their isk income potential...
Fun fact: you can make more isk through invention than you can with a single T2 BPO.
Furthermore, |
Nol Agnot
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.10.30 01:23:00 -
[22]
Who said EVE was anything about being fair?
Delenda est achura. |
Myung Chul
Gallente Task Force Talon
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Posted - 2008.10.30 01:38:00 -
[23]
the ship BPO's are averaging 20-80 billion now. Judging by the use of stealth bomber BPOs they were recently taken away. I played way before the stealth bomber came out and invention was new and i think they took away the BPO lotery thing. But now sense they are costing so much the poor bastards now have a get rich quike scheem 1 day i have 5mil then i remembered i had a vaga PBO lol... Its basically getting everything you would wish for in eve with a easy 50 bil in under a hour. Way over and now i want someone to sell me a T2 Cruiser print for 5mil please mail me if you wish for me to have the best eve life ever at the age of 14 :)
AND I PAYED WITH MY OWN MONEY not my parents but that wouldve bean genous idea.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.30 07:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
The lack of T2 BPO injection represents a balance problem in the same way as any other lack of availability. Ownership is irrelevant.
Simple, no? The equivalent would be, say, battleships. From tomorrow, there are no more buildable in the game, any existing that remain become limited collectors commodities. This isn't a good principle for the game. A balanced economy thrives on equal opportunity - where anybody can do anything, but it takes the skilled and intelligent to do well.
If T2 BPO where 1 of a kind items (i.e. one of each module/ship) your argument would be valid. As they are rare but several of each kind exist and are traded daily it has less value.
It is not impossible to buy one, it is only costly and it has little investment efficiency (low return from the production and pretty risky investment for resellers).
then there is the factor that some specific T2 BPO is needed or we would see the equivalent T2 item disappear as invention costs will not make it worthy to produce tank to T1/named/faction alternative items.
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