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Dmian
Gallente Gallenterrorisme
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:41:00 -
[121]
Low-sec is the playground of no-risk carebear pirates. ----
Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Jimi Tetro
Vanquish Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:41:00 -
[122]
As a player who uses L4's to recover my PVP losses I have to agree they are overpowered and need nerfing.
They provide more income per hour that most of 0.0 unless you have spent hours setting up a system chain with belts full of 3x 1.5+ bs's.
Initially I would prefer they move +quality l4's to low sec and leave -quality in High sec, with the long term view of moving them all to low-sec.
Why would exclusive high sec mission runners care? If you only do missions for fun, then you could carry on with L3's as after a month or 2 of missioning you would have all the isk you need as you never lose a ship.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:44:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Tippia on 30/10/2008 15:45:11
Originally by: Lrrp Are you seriously daft?
No, are you?
Quote: Most mission runners use the same ship month in and month out, never having to buy a thing for it.
Source? You are apparently ignorant to the number of PvPers who use mission-running as a sideline to pay for their PvP habits.
Quote: Do you thing pilots replacing those ships are going to cause market prices to drop?
Which ships? Their PvE ships? No. Their PvP ships? Certainly.
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Lrrp
Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:51:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Jimi Tetro As a player who uses L4's to recover my PVP losses I have to agree they are overpowered and need nerfing.
I suspect you don't really run them. Why would any sane person want to nerf a source of income?
Originally by: Jimi Tetro They provide more income per hour that most of 0.0 unless you have spent hours setting up a system chain with belts full of 3x 1.5+ bs's.
Depends on systems. While in fountain I could rat and make 18 to 25 mil per hour in a freaking Drake. Try making that solo in lvl 4's hour after hour.
Originally by: Jimi Tetro Why would exclusive high sec mission runners care? If you only do missions for fun, then you could carry on with L3's as after a month or 2 of missioning you would have all the isk you need as you never lose a ship.
Suspicion meter needle in the red. Very screwed logic here. If, after doing lvl 4's, why do you think much easier mission are going to be fun? When one pvp's, one "NEVER" has enough isk.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.30 15:59:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Lrrp
Originally by: Jimi Tetro As a player who uses L4's to recover my PVP losses I have to agree they are overpowered and need nerfing.
I suspect you don't really run them. Why would any sane person want to nerf a source of income?
Your suspicions are wrong. I run L4s to fund my PvP habits, and I feel the same as Jimi. As to why: because it feels far too easy to be good for the game. There's no reason why something that simple should pay that well.
Quote: Depends on systems. While in fountain I could rat and make 18 to 25 mil per hour in a freaking Drake. Try making that solo in lvl 4's hour after hour.
The same can be done with L4s, without having to work for the access to a good system — there is no "depends" for L4s.
Quote: If, after doing lvl 4's, why do you think much easier mission are going to be fun?
L4s are no harder than L3s — they just require different equipment. If you want to make your L3 missions "hard", and thus make them fun, you can just underfit for them. "Easy" and "fun" are completely malleable and subjective concepts.
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Lrrp
Minmatar The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.30 16:03:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Tippia Source? You are apparently ignorant to the number of PvPers who use mission-running as a sideline to pay for their PvP habits.
I'm was talking about pilots who don't pvp as you seemed to imply it was the mission runner exclusively that was driving up the market by buying mods for their pve ships. I am glad to see you concur it is in fact the pvp aspect that drives up market cost. Whatever the source a pvp'er derives income from, the income generating source itself cannot be held liable for market swings.
Originally by: Tippia Which ships? Their PvE ships? No. Their PvP ships? Certainly. Also, given the number of mission runners, they can drive the prices up with their PvE fits just through sheer numbers.
Exactly. We both are in agreement then that pvp is the cause for a market swing up.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2008.10.30 16:57:00 -
[127]
OMG why nerf level 4s? Just buff low sec and 0.0 belt ratting
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Vietone
Gallente Mercury Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.30 19:48:00 -
[128]
Honestly, I dont see why people care if lvl4 missions are being in high sec.Not every player wants to bother with PvP which pretty much sums up what happens in low sec. If low sec was worth it, more people would go into low sec.
Some people like grinding missions, getting lots of ISK and buying better ships. Whats wrong with that? It doesnt hurt anyone in low sec. You still get to PvP with people who want to PvP. Moving lvl4 missions exclusively to low sec will pretty much reduce lvl4 missions to almost nothing.
Doing LvL3 missions is hardly an alternative. Instead of grinding for a month to get that new ship, you would be grinding for 3-4 months. People would leave the game because its no longer worth the effort to get a better ship.
If eve was all about PvP, then they would only have high sec systems 2-3 jumps from starter stations and going more than that would be low sec and null sec.
Some people like PvP, some people dont. They should make changes to improve the rewards for PvP instead of gimping players who don't.
For example, I always thought it would be nice to be able to steal players ship once they reach a certain amount of damage. For example, lets say you gate camp and a nice hauler comes by, instead of blowing it to pieces, how about when the ship gets down to 20% structure, since the ship is pretty much a sitting duck anyway, there should be a module to be able to hack the ship and force the pilot to eject. Then someone else who would probably be in a cheap disposable ship like a shuttle can jump into it and fly it away, keeping all cargo intact.
There are better ways to improve the game. But making the game worse for people should not be a first option.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.30 20:52:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Tippia on 30/10/2008 20:55:28
Originally by: Lrrp Exactly. We both are in agreement then that pvp is the cause for a market swing up.
No. Read it again.
Originally by: Vietone Some people like grinding missions, getting lots of ISK and buying better ships. Whats wrong with that? It doesnt hurt anyone in low sec.
What's wrong is that it does hurt others. Those "lots of ISK" you accrue has an effect on the market for everyone. Anything and everything you do in this game has an effect on other players.
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Cece Cline
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Posted - 2008.10.31 12:22:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Vietone Some people like grinding missions, getting lots of ISK and buying better ships. Whats wrong with that? It doesnt hurt anyone in low sec.
What's wrong is that it does hurt others. Those "lots of ISK" you accrue has an effect on the market for everyone. Anything and everything you do in this game has an effect on other players.
Yeah I bet it hurts when low sec ratters get more money from their items. Nerf lvl4 payouts, increase officer drops in low sec! I want to buy a gist-x booster for 150m because that's what they are gonna cost. Estamel's full shield hardener set for 100m, mmmm, mucho gusto!
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari Firestar Drive Yards
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Posted - 2008.10.31 12:42:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Ryoji Tanakama on 31/10/2008 12:42:21 There we go, the same naive notion yet again.
People do not do level 4s because they are worth the most isk. They do level 4s because they are the optimal isk available for no significant risk. Nerfing level 4s will simply not move anyone into lowsec. Boosting lowsec missions will not move anyone into lowsec.
You can't game engineer with carrots if you don't understand the game.
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Roshan longshot
Gallente Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:16:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote: More lvl4 agents: I've said somewhere above that we want to normalize the risk-reward ratio of level 4's, so this would fall under that hat.
This is why you shouldn't touch level 4s. Think of the newbs!
Rokh Level 4 runner. Maelstrom Level 4 Runner. Raven Level 4 Runner.
All scanned within very short period.
My other good reason is outlined here.
Hey instead of wasting space with yet another 'anti level four mission' post...apply to CCP and fix it from within the company...They are looking for a good few people to fill their ranks...oh wait a sec. |
Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:27:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Clair Bear But would you fly a multi-billion ISK pimped out pwnmobile for ratting like you can for highsec missions?
I do already, its called a Chimera. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:46:00 -
[134]
Cold hard facts;
We have high security people who have zero intention of ever going to low/nul security for any period of time.
CCP must cater to that group of people or risk loosing "even" more accounts than they have with some of recent decisions.
It is a buisness first and foremost to CCP, and they will do what it takes to try to make all players happy. This keeps Eve afloat and their playerbase happier.
They know any hardcore nerf to level 4's will only hurt their bottomline period. So why would CCP do this ? They will not...too much time and money has been spent to make missions better to please those who don't and won't PvP ever.
This is the reality some of us, I think, we fail to grasp.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:07:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Vigilant Cold hard facts;
Half of the people running missions in high-sec do it to fund their PVP ships, so they can go back to PVP-ing for the lols in ships they shouldn't be able to afford
The other part are carebears. They can go L3s, or do L4s at massively reduced income, since they don't NEED the ISK. They're having fun mission running.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:25:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Misanth on 31/10/2008 14:28:46 Bah, TL;DR, it got alot longer than I planned.
Lrrp, Tippia, you are both right, but in different aspects.
* It is indeed bad if people make too much isk and never spend it. It kills the value of money and ruin the economy in total. Tippia is right here.
* Lrrp is right that you make more isk ratting in 0.0. Don't look at the "18-25" he posted, he said "Drake" as well. I've been hardcore ratting in periods and I know for a fact I can pull in 50mil+ an hour, not counting faction/officer spawns. Drake ratting vs Drake lv4. Compare to Golem ratting vs Golem lv4's. Same balance, rat > lv4. - As a sidenote, you'd make even more isk/hour if you were a dedicated player, with some experience/skills and know how to use trading, inventing or manfacturing. Or if you are a guy running X accounts solo-mining ops in 0.0.
* Risk vs reward? Here's a bit greyscale. People claim lv4 is of "no risk". That's simply false. Suicide ganking and salvage thieving is both very viable strats to kill off lv4-runners even in high sec. The problem here, is mainly because it's too much effort suicide ganking people, and partly because you can't wardec people in the NPC corp. In either case, the lv4 hisec agents arn't at fault, the players and the system are.
On a personal note; I am running lv4 to fund my PvP habits, just like you both claim you do. Why am I doing it? Because I'm lazy, that's the only reason. I can browse these forums (writing this while running a lv4 for example) and do housekeeping while doing it. I can't do that while ratting, trading. Industrialism involves alot of logistics, which is mind-numbingly boring (just like ratting).
In light of that, I see only one issue with lv4's, and that's not the money you make, or the low risk. It's the mentality. Partly from potential suicide gankers, partly from players like me, partly from players who look at numbers but don't see the wide picture.
You know players that dump prices below reasonable amounts, because they fail to see the correct value on things? Like someone mining/using R&D and then inventing stuff, and selling a t2 item 'below market value' because they feel they got their datacores/ores "free"? That's exactly what's happening with lv4's. People say X mil an hour/lv4 is too much. Yet they fail to see that all other professions make more.
Ratting have several issues atm. First you are at risk all time, so you have to pay attention. Secondly it's a mess hauling loot since usually you'll have stations far away. Thirdly it's a mess hauling ammo. Fourthly you might have hostiles in system, effectively shutting you down. Fifth is related to 2+3, you need logistics to be really effective here. Lv4 earn you less than ratting in bounty, drops, and salvage. But you save the logistic time, you don't have to check local, and you can do other things same time.
Mentality is the problem. And people running lv4 23/7 without spending the isk, they get too fat and money drops in value. Isk farmers. Not level 4 in itself. Making lv4 worse for isk farming will force regular players to do other things, while the 23/7 iskfarmers will stick to hisec agents, just like they farm veldspar/ice nonstop.
The day lv4 is made worse, I'll just start rat in 0.0 again. Over time I'll make more money, I'll read these forums less, and I'll be mindnumbingly bored again. LP store items will be controlled by the iskfarmers who can put up with the low reward. And it's still just as hard to suicide kill them as it is today.
I'm not sure that's the right way to approach the problem. It should be more incentives to move to low-sec and 0.0 instead. Make crap 0.0 regions get higher quality for one. Better rats in low sec. Perhaps look into inserting more NPC stations to improve logistics for non-Sov-holders.
That'd definately pull me back to ratting rather than lv4's, I'd have to spend less time making isk = more PvP = good.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:34:00 -
[137]
PvP is one persons fun and missions is anothers, yep I agree.
After reading this thread last night I ran a few level 4's myself. I found them fun, but just another to make isk tbh.
I have played for so long now, its all grinding minus PvP. And to be totally honest, I am not a die hard PvPer, but I have in the past (this account and others I own).
If, big if,I was to run level 4's all the time I would only do it to buy BPO's, and its just as easy for me and my corporation to grind rock/ice for it.
Risk vs. Reward comes up a lot in these threads but there is very little risk to a person in some back water 0.0 belt ganking rats in his own alliance space. So should we nerf rats and drops too?
Where does stop? Maybe we should make all of Eve 0.0 and fight in tech 1 frigs ? Cause after a few months of combat that is all that would be left. Not to mention, population on the server would be nothing.
CCP has to cater to both PvPer and Carebear alike, and null security and missions is how the accomplish this.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:39:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Hertford Those empty, unused 0.0 systems are empty and unused for a good reason. And it's nothing to do with big alliances claiming them.
One of the problems I see is that alliances are ok with people within their alliance setting up POS.
But corps are not ok with letting people setup POS because of the access controls that the people needs to set one up. So that means only the trusted members can set up a POS so out of a group of 100 maybe only 20 have the roles needed to setup a POS.
So the newer members who want to rat/mine in a backwater system that isn't used can't because there is no POS and their corp won't let them setup a POS.
Now from flying in the drone regions, I was one of the first to find RA/Solar setting up POS. Only because they landed in the system that I lived in. For the safty of alliances we need to setup the POS systems so that people can spread out so there are many people who want to but aren't allowed because of the current corp system.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:47:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Half of the people running missions in high-sec do it to fund their PVP ships, so they can go back to PVP-ing for the lols in ships they shouldn't be able to afford
But you don't want me to fly T1 ships, so I fly throw away T2 ships fitted with T2 mods. I also fly in 0.0 with +4 implants so I do need a way to make isk.
I couldn't imagine 0.0 fleet battles without T2 ships; bubbles, E-war, scouts. A T1 fleet can't even hold ground against a fleet mixed with T2 ships. Now to get others in the alliances to see if this way.
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CALUGARU
Repo Industries Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:50:00 -
[140]
CCP, please do not kill lvl 4 missions. the lvl 4 missioners won't have any cash to pay when ransomed :< ______________
The new Orca:
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:56:00 -
[141]
Originally by: CALUGARU CCP, please do not kill lvl 4 missions. the lvl 4 missioners won't have any cash to pay when ransomed :<
OMG LOL... That was perfect in such a over done conversation.
Thanks m8
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.10.31 15:04:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit *snip*
That's related to what I write about logistics being an issue for ratting.
Ratting is still > lv4, but the loot/salvage is a big income source there and the logistics to pull it to Empire is the issue. While for lv4 that's a non-issue.
I honestl don't know how to solve this in a good fashion, but getting cheaper/easier means to set up POS without them being considered 'too hostile' would be one. Adding NPC stations in 0.0 would be another.
And honestly 0.0 as a general need a quality overhaul. The good areas are good, alot better than lv4's, but the poor ones isn't much better than running a lv3-mission. Pulling them up on par with the better quality areas would do alot to pull out players from high to nullsec.
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ramzahn
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.31 15:11:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Jimi Tetro ... rat and make 18 to 25 mil per hour ...
Originally by: Tippia The same can be done with L4 ...
You must be joking, verily you must. But maybe you meant not the bounties or agent rewards in itself but those magnificent L4 loot module drops.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:06:00 -
[144]
Originally by: ramzahn
Originally by: Jimi Tetro ... rat and make 18 to 25 mil per hour ...
Originally by: Tippia The same can be done with L4 ...
You must be joking, verily you must. But maybe you meant not the bounties or agent rewards in itself but those magnificent L4 loot module drops.
~3000 Caldari navy LP from a mission that takes me ~30 minutes at a value of ~3500 isk per LP yeah I can make 18-25m an hour doing L4s.
what should be done is to reverse NPC 0.0 and conq 0.0 sec status. make all conq 0.0 a relative true-sec of -1.0 and all NPC 0.0 whatever. Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:14:00 -
[145]
Originally by: ramzahn
Originally by: Jimi Tetro ... rat and make 18 to 25 mil per hour ...
Originally by: Tippia The same can be done with L4 ...
You must be joking, verily you must. But maybe you meant not the bounties or agent rewards in itself but those magnificent L4 loot module drops.
There's nothing hard about making 18-25M/hr doing level 4s.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:15:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama Edited by: Ryoji Tanakama on 31/10/2008 12:42:21 There we go, the same naive notion yet again.
People do not do level 4s because they are worth the most isk. They do level 4s because they are the optimal isk available for no significant risk. Nerfing level 4s will simply not move anyone into lowsec. Boosting lowsec missions will not move anyone into lowsec.
You can't game engineer with carrots if you don't understand the game.
Disagree on some part. Huge changes on BOOSTIGN low sec coudl move SOME people there. True, won't ove many. But if you make it so that you can EASILy make more than in high sec, after havign discounted the isk loss from pirate attacks. Then yes some smart people would move to low sec.
Even high sec is not safe as long as peopel are not in noob corps. The only thing that needs nerfign are noob corps! If every player with more than 6 months had to be in a player corp then there woudl be ZERO reason to complain. Want to kill him? wardec him. Simple. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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SSgt Sniper
Gallente MAIDS
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:24:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 27/10/2008 17:10:37
Originally by: Mecinia Lua If you move all the level 4s to low sec, then they'll move to level 3s.
And the risk/reward balance with other professions in EVE will be balanced.
Which is kind of what people have been crying out for.
Quote:
The problem is in time they could not support themselves in game with level 3s.
What the hell do they need to buy. Certainly not a new raven. Or new fittings. As they never blow up. Some missiles?
SKUNK
Trust me, they do from time to time have to replace ships, probably more often than you think. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
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Maximus Veridia
Minmatar Deathguard Legion United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:07:00 -
[148]
I read through these, and now understand why the "nerfs" are in place to begin with. Bored low sec players are always wanting to mess with the carebears like me. I pay my money just like some of you do. But i actually pay every month for 2 characters, and yet i really don't have a desire to go back to the low sec - 0.0 space hell. I don't want to lose my ships, i don't want to take on the 25 ship gate camp, with my drake, I don't want to take on the 10 billion sp players all the time. I just want to be left alone to run my missions, and make my crap.
I run level 4's in a hac, it's my main ship. I don't need anything nerfed, i just would like some faction gear, but if i need to go to low-sec to even have a chance at it, because it's in 1 system that the a$$holes already know about and have made their hunting grounds, then forget it, it's not that important.
I've lost all desire to get into capital ships, because they have been nerfed, so all i have left with eve is running these missions, and trying to figure out invention.
So from my humble little 30 bucks a month opinion, stop messing with the "mechanics" of the game and start getting some game features in, like the PVP tournament, that would be fun.
Otherwise please don't nerf anything else.
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:57:00 -
[149]
Posting in a "we're unhappy so nerf someone else" thread. Or a "we need moar targets in LowSuck" thread.
Missions have been nerfed out the ass many times. ANOTHER mission nerf is on test right now, it's called the so-called nano nerf.
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ramzahn
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:03:00 -
[150]
Edited by: ramzahn on 31/10/2008 19:03:19
Originally by: Dramaticus
~3000 Caldari navy LP from a mission that takes me ~30 minutes at a value of ~3500 isk per LP yeah I can make 18-25m an hour doing L4s.
Are we really talking about the average L4 mission runner here, using average quality agents (non-motsu) and operating average easily replaceable setups, not pimped ships stuffed with faction gear?
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