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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 100 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2050
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it.
Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
178
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
First! Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Hiram Alexander
Seraphim Securities
197
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:We will continue to expand the scope of this to include asset seizure in the coming days which will include reclamation of supercaps... Boy, did I laugh...! Superb blog ! |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Death to all bots. |
Squall5668
Mythos Corp HELL4S
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
OH GOD... fun times ahead |
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial Rooks and Kings
1236
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bye bye RMTers, we didn't love you anyway. Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 |
Demon Azrakel
Bite Me inc Exhale.
78
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
needs moar graphs |
Skye Aurorae
Viziam Amarr Empire
229
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
"Don't do business with people you know to be involved in RMT."
I'm handing out a lot of buddy invites, to people I'm worried what would happen if one of them ignores me and goes buying stuff for money. I mean I have ads popup alongside my youtube tutorial videos that occasionally advertise the sale of Isk and items in Eve, I have no control over these ads and I make it clear to people I invite that PLEX is the way to go but based on this devblog it's only a matter of time until some person I help out pulls me into this mess through no fault of my own.
Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21, so..
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gfldex
448
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We love you if you don't cheat
You are like a mother to us! Inferno - your wallet will burn! |
Iniquita
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
I support this product and/or service.
Though I know that some people are willing just to biomass the character who got the negative wallet and none of their other characters or assets (whom obviously benefited from this illicit activity) remain untouched. Hopefully in the future you will look more closely at people who purchase rmt'd isk because it seems all you need to be willing to do is biomass the character who took the initial wallet it and the person can keep any ill gotten assets they have purchased. |
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Doris Dents
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sreegs is a butte |
Learath
Incendiary Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
a href="http://%20http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG13u9KKtzE&list=PLDDA989F65CD6E98A&index=9&feature=plpp_video"
Best html EVAR! |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2050
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Learath wrote:a href="http://%20http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG13u9KKtzE&list=PLDDA989F65CD6E98A&index=9&feature=plpp_video"
Best html EVAR!
It's a security thing. I think Sreegs is paranoid that someone might actually find his video if the URL actually leads to it. But I fixed it in any case :) CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1444
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fantastic job guys - I hope you really hammer the hell out of them. :)
Quote: Between 1-3 trillion ISK in assets siezed permanently Around 500 billion ISK in RMT transactions reversed
I see that PL was trolling over losing 15T ISK. This was expected.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Iniquita wrote:I support this product and/or service.
Though I know that some people are willing just to biomass the character who got the negative wallet and none of their other characters or assets (whom obviously benefited from this illicit activity) remain untouched. Hopefully in the future you will look more closely at people who purchase rmt'd isk because it seems all you need to be willing to do is biomass the character who took the initial wallet it and the person can keep any ill gotten assets they have purchased.
Im not going to name specifics here but I know of at least one person who has been extremely unrepentant. His wallet got hit pretty hard but he had purchased made contract purchases and was able to retain his assets. Another person simply biomassed the character with a negative wallet and plans to purchase a new character from the bazaar.
It seems a bit of an oversight that people can simply purchase isk, buy assets and pass on assets via contracts to alts to avoid the impact of what you are trying to do. Or simply biomass characters with a negative wallet and go on to purchase new characters. Maybe you should consider adding a fee to biomassing or something.
We're trying not to be too elaborate right now but we've already had situations where we've just gone ahead and moved the negative balance to a main. |
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Excellent.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Omu Matol
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
10
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Posted - 2012.04.03 17:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yeah I'm a little curious how far down the chain they are willing to go.
Guy buys isk from RMT'er Guy buys shiny thing (account even?) from dude Dude spend dirty isk he doesn't know is dirty on something shiny. rinse and repeat. CCP finds out about Guy. Takes away requisite amount of isk, leaving him possibly negative. What do to the trail of isk? |
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
ahuj9
also:
Quote:Around 105 accounts with direct ties to RMT (Real Money Trade) operations banned permanently Can you tell how many players were thought to be behind these 105 accounts? ie are we talking about shutting down 105 different players who were each using 1 account for RMT, or a handful of insane multiboxers, or what? |
Hiram Alexander
Seraphim Securities
197
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Iniquita wrote:I support this product and/or service.
Though I know that some people are willing just to biomass the character who got the negative wallet and none of their other characters or assets (whom obviously benefited from this illicit activity) remain untouched. Hopefully in the future you will look more closely at people who purchase rmt'd isk because it seems all you need to be willing to do is biomass the character who took the initial wallet it and the person can keep any ill gotten assets they have purchased.
Im not going to name specifics here but I know of at least one person who has been extremely unrepentant. His wallet got hit pretty hard but he had purchased made contract purchases and was able to retain his assets. Another person simply biomassed the character with a negative wallet and plans to purchase a new character from the bazaar.
It seems a bit of an oversight that people can simply purchase isk, buy assets and pass on assets via contracts to alts to avoid the impact of what you are trying to do. Or simply biomass characters with a negative wallet and go on to purchase new characters. Maybe you should consider adding a fee to biomassing or something. We're trying not to be too elaborate right now but we've already had situations where we've just gone ahead and moved the negative balance to a main. Standing ovation...! Nice :) |
Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cheater tears = best tears
Keep up the good work! |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sreegs: Can you address the concern - nay, the undeniable fact - that reporting your foes in-game, whether or not they're actually engaging in any sort of RMT, is going to become a regular tactic nowadays, all the moreso that you're offering an incentive for doing so? Will there be punitive action taken against players who spam lots of reports, especially if investigation into those reports keeps coming up negative?
My concern here is that you're going to create a whole lot of unnecessary workload for yourself investigating all kinds of false reports, which could serve to reduce your effectiveness at dealing with actual RMTers. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
177
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
nice job
so much about the 15 trillion PL isk banned :P |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
HELIC0N ONE wrote:ahuj9 also: Quote:Around 105 accounts with direct ties to RMT (Real Money Trade) operations banned permanently Can you tell how many players were thought to be behind these 105 accounts? ie are we talking about shutting down 105 different players who were each using 1 account for RMT, or a handful of insane multiboxers, or what?
It was a mixed bag really. I can't really estimate that right this second. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Sreegs: Can you address the concern - nay, the undeniable fact - that reporting your foes in-game, whether or not they're actually engaging in any sort of RMT, is going to become a regular tactic nowadays, all the moreso that you're offering an incentive for doing so? Will there be punitive action taken against players who spam lots of reports, especially if investigation into those reports keeps coming up negative?
My concern here is that you're going to create a whole lot of unnecessary workload for yourself investigating all kinds of false reports, which could serve to reduce your effectiveness at dealing with actual RMTers.
I won't have the team's time wasted so you can take whatever you will from that. :)
To be honest with you this is a whole lot more advanced than I think a lot of people comprehend and this really isn't feasible. |
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Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
319
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Fantastic job guys - I hope you really hammer the hell out of them. :) Quote: Between 1-3 trillion ISK in assets siezed permanently Around 500 billion ISK in RMT transactions reversed
I see that PL was trolling over losing 15T ISK. This was expected. -Liang Yeah thanks for headshotting the troll sreegs :[ |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jack bubu wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Fantastic job guys - I hope you really hammer the hell out of them. :) Quote: Between 1-3 trillion ISK in assets siezed permanently Around 500 billion ISK in RMT transactions reversed
I see that PL was trolling over losing 15T ISK. This was expected. -Liang Yeah thanks for headshotting the troll sreegs :[
You got a weekend's mileage out of it ok |
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Pyrus Octavius
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Sreegs for President, and crowned Savior of EvE. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
492
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 17:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thanks for all the hard work! |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
315
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
first link to Details may be found in my Fanfest presentation located doesn't work Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
689
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
I would like to wish good luck in the war on RMT |
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Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it. Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us.
I have a question CCP Guard
"Neither RMT nor bot-related activity have any place in New Eden any longer"
odd choice of phrasing on the dev blog, implication being CCP condoned botting till recently....
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:06:00 -
[32] - Quote
How does one use the Plex For Sniches program, I would like to pay for my accounts through reporting ice mining bots. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:CCP Guard wrote:Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it. Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us. I have a question CCP Guard "Neither RMT nor bot-related activity have any place in New Eden any longer" odd choice of phrasing on the dev blog, implication being CCP condoned botting till recently....
You could read it that way, or you could read it for what it is - "Until sreegs came along we didn't really have a team in place to effectively deal with this." |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Palovana wrote:First! Quote:Update: Since this blog was written this afternoon we've taken out another 365 account bot/rmt ring. No estimate of assets yet. Another big score. Quote:automated botting detection routines Bots hunting bots. IT'S THE FUTURE! Quote:All actions will be retroactive to at LEAST February. Any particular reason you're using February as a cutoff? I guess activity logs can only be kept so long. Not being a botter I'd say go back to 2003 with this.
We can go back further but we're leaving wiggle room depending on the offense. The farther back we go the more manual labor is involved which means we spend more time manually sifting through things which leaves our net less wide than we want it to be. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:How does one use the Plex For Sniches program, I would like to pay for my accounts through reporting ice mining bots.
I don't really use it for bots as we tend to get flooded with information and there's a reporting feature for that. For today we're limiting it to major items such as privatized RMT rings or specific technologies. |
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Caiman Graystock
Comrades in Construction Hades.
20
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Posted - 2012.04.03 18:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
Sreegs I have a really short attention span and got to the part where you said you will remove ALL isk in game received through ill gotten gains which is great and all- how does this work if some RMT idiot uses their ill gotten isk to fulfil a legitimate contract, is the isk taken back from the seller and their item returned? |
stoicfaux
910
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
No false positives yet? Impressive.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Sarmatiko
655
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Red Alliance former leader talks directly about his own RMT actions. Few months later - nothing happens. I suppose right now place in large alliance leadership is the safest one for RMT because there is "no evidence" for ban. How many characters with director roles in large alliances were banned in recent ban wave? |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
15
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Posted - 2012.04.03 18:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote: I mean I have ads popup alongside my youtube tutorial videos that occasionally advertise the sale of Isk and items in Eve, I have no control over these ads
Seem to remember reading something a while back about the way youtube handles IP claims, ie someone claiming eve vids etc places adds on others vids where the one claiming IP rights gets the advertising revenue, also seems a good way for RMT crowd gaining free aditional money for the adds, might be worth either yourself seeing about disputing the ownership of the vids on youtube or better CCP games doing so.
atm in middle of something in eve, when i can i'll see about tracking down the news article about this and post a link on this thread.
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InVictus Kell
The Scope Gallente Federation
98
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Posted - 2012.04.03 18:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
From the dev post:
" Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt "
nice, reads like a good 'ol fashion political slogan or old war bond ad from WWII. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:Red Alliance former leader talks directly in TS recording about his own RMT actions. Few months later - nothing happens. I suppose right now place in large alliance leadership is the safest one for RMT because there is "no evidence" for ban. How many characters with director roles in large alliances were banned in recent ban wave?
We are not a part of your metagame and this has nothing to do with who does or doesn't like who or what alliance they're in. We deal with what we have evidence of not whatever site on the internet may make allegations.
We don't look at what alliances they're part of or who they are in whatever alliance. We follow the activity. If the activity leads to an alliance then we'll action on an alliance. As it stands this is something fairly new we're working with and while we've had some people with roles tagged that's not a number I anticipate us reporting on as to be frank it's meaningless when the topic is "RMT" and is really only useful when the topic is "I think alliance x is evil". Today we took out at least 3 corporations as an example.
We're going to do this in a way that makes sense from an RMT perspective not based on whomever the metagame flavor of the month for accusations is. |
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Allataria
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
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Posted - 2012.04.03 18:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
I love your work Sreegs and CCP Security.
Please keep it up. |
Goran Konjich
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
there is hope for us noobs :-) |
Camios
Minmatar Bread Corporation
85
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
Really nice stuff, I feel a really happy customer
Quote:we're expecting to see an average of 100B ISK a day removed from botting accounts.
Does it mean that bots provide at least 3 trillions/months, around 12% of total isk bounties collected in the same period? If it does, it is the definitive proof that botting is (was) a significant part of the EVE economy; and since there is a net flow of 24Tisk/MO into the economy of eve this could turn into a pretty big isk sink
Aynway, kill them all |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Skye Aurorae wrote: I mean I have ads popup alongside my youtube tutorial videos that occasionally advertise the sale of Isk and items in Eve, I have no control over these ads Seem to remember reading something a while back about the way youtube handles IP claims, ie someone claiming eve vids etc places adds on others vids where the one claiming IP rights gets the advertising revenue, also seems a good way for RMT crowd gaining free aditional money for the adds, might be worth either yourself seeing about disputing the ownership of the vids on youtube or better CCP games doing so. atm in middle of something in eve, when i can i'll see about tracking down the news article about this and post a link on this thread. Found it. http://torrentfreak.com/youtubes-content-id-piracy-filter-wreaks-havoc-110908/
You're welcome to send some examples of these ads to [email protected]. We haven't yet done much about it but it's been on the radar. |
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Andrea Griffin
221
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:20:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Sreegs is indeed my favorite developer. GÖÑGÖÑGÖÑ
Could you provide information on the PLEX for Snitches program? I don't believe I caught it the first time around. Is it some kind of automatic thing whenever any report is made, or does it have to go through specific channels? CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Rendiff
Flashpoint Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
Quote:Don't do business with people you know to be involved in RMT. Don't buy accounts, items, PLEX or ISK illegally. THERE YOU HAVE IT! The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP.
Does that include places like shatteredcrystal.com? |
Ruthless Erection
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:21:00 -
[49] - Quote
InVictus Kell wrote:From the dev post:
" Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt "
nice, reads like a good 'ol fashion political slogan or old war bond ad from WWII.
Typical CCP.
I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0?
We've seen what happens when plex's get flooded on the market, and when they become scarce. Anyone remember the days when plex's were 300m or less?
CCP's already fubar'd. My account was banned for "RMTing", I sold a motherf***ing character, using the forums, and they said I sold it for real life cash. That's 50mill SP toon I'm not getting back, nor the 8billion it was sold for.
I hope this current "War on Bots" turns around and bites them in the ass. It'll be a well-deserved kick in the butt for the failure of not looking more than 2 ft in front of them.
Also, you pansy CCP guys, perma ban Mittani, make an example. Quit bending over backwards for your players. Enough is Enough. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:22:00 -
[50] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.
By this measuring stick every single MMO ever has been boring. I hear the argument and I'd love to see some data which proves that altering gameplay to meet whatever standard the rather nebulous term "fun" applies to in any way mitigates RMT. |
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Melthariumin
Tactical Reconnaissance
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
Can i have their stuff??
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Sarmatiko
655
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We are not a part of your metagame and this has nothing to do with who does or doesn't like who or what alliance they're in. We deal with what we have evidence of not whatever site on the internet may make allegations. I dont care about RA or metagaming. I only care because one known member directly said in public - "I sold ISK from alliance wallet to pay my debt for my car". There is no evidence for CCP, but there enough evidence for rest of the community, including RA members. We see that ISK seller still play this game and nothing happens.That's pretty much describes the whole anti-RMT system. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.
Holy wall of text batman, this isn't even Sreegs' area. |
Avila Cracko
289
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
No false positives... **** yea... So the richest goon is banned too
http://soundcloud.com/user8371571/vandvpodcast-mitanniinterview listen from 19:00.
And its not false positive. truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Andrea Griffin
221
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ruthless Erection wrote:I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0? Cool, that means that there will be more rewards for non-bot players when they do produce something valuable.
CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
177
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
Rendiff wrote:Quote:Don't do business with people you know to be involved in RMT. Don't buy accounts, items, PLEX or ISK illegally. THERE YOU HAVE IT! The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP. Does that include places like shatteredcrystal.com?
they sell GTCs and not plex :P |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ruthless Erection wrote: I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0?
Buy those items now, reap massive profits later. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
601
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:26:00 -
[58] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:CCP Sreegs is indeed my favorite developer. GÖÑGÖÑGÖÑ
Could you provide information on the PLEX for Snitches program? I don't believe I caught it the first time around. Is it some kind of automatic thing whenever any report is made, or does it have to go through specific channels?
At the moment if you provide us with information at [email protected] which leads to us discovering something of value we can action against we will give a reward which matches the value of the data. We don't use this for individual botters for instance but detailed information about an RMT ring might qualify. |
|
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:26:00 -
[59] - Quote
Rendiff wrote:Quote:Don't do business with people you know to be involved in RMT. Don't buy accounts, items, PLEX or ISK illegally. THERE YOU HAVE IT! The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP. Does that include places like shatteredcrystal.com?
Shattered crystal, Deepspace deposit (battleclinics resell site) are all authorised reseller of eve time codes which are convertable to plex etc, what he means is something like www.randomrmt.com (not a actual site, just an example) who offer to sell accounts (EULA violation) items like titans etc (all items etc are CCPs ip and property, so you cant sell what you dont own) plex which is a ingame item, and isk which is ingame currency for real life money, ie -ú stirling, $ USD etc etc etc
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
601
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Rendiff wrote:Quote:Don't do business with people you know to be involved in RMT. Don't buy accounts, items, PLEX or ISK illegally. THERE YOU HAVE IT! The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP. Does that include places like shatteredcrystal.com?
They don't sell plex. :) |
|
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
601
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We are not a part of your metagame and this has nothing to do with who does or doesn't like who or what alliance they're in. We deal with what we have evidence of not whatever site on the internet may make allegations. I dont care about RA or metagaming. I only care because one known member directly said in public - "I sold ISK from alliance wallet to pay my debt for my car". There is no evidence for CCP, but there enough evidence for rest of the community, including RA members. We see that ISK seller still play this game and nothing happens.That's pretty much describes the whole anti-RMT system.
No that describes your perspective based on something you feel you've observed. I don't get to deal in perspectives of observation I deal with actual activity. If you have evidence of wrongdoing email it to me at [email protected] and if something's really going on I'll handle it. |
|
Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Iniquita wrote:I support this product and/or service.
Though I know that some people are willing just to biomass the character who got the negative wallet and none of their other characters or assets (whom obviously benefited from this illicit activity) remain untouched. Hopefully in the future you will look more closely at people who purchase rmt'd isk because it seems all you need to be willing to do is biomass the character who took the initial wallet it and the person can keep any ill gotten assets they have purchased.
Im not going to name specifics here but I know of at least one person who has been extremely unrepentant. His wallet got hit pretty hard but he had purchased made contract purchases and was able to retain his assets. Another person simply biomassed the character with a negative wallet and plans to purchase a new character from the bazaar.
It seems a bit of an oversight that people can simply purchase isk, buy assets and pass on assets via contracts to alts to avoid the impact of what you are trying to do. Or simply biomass characters with a negative wallet and go on to purchase new characters. Maybe you should consider adding a fee to biomassing or something. We're trying not to be too elaborate right now but we've already had situations where we've just gone ahead and moved the negative balance to a main.
+1 Internets for you Sir! |
gfldex
448
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:"Neither RMT nor bot-related activity have any place in New Eden any longer"
The wording is correct. For years the GMs didn't really do anything about botting/macros or cheating in general as long as you didn't earn more ISK then the average semi-noob. Even for exploits only the top offenders where bannz0rd in many cases. Inferno - your wallet will burn! |
Li Charen-Teng
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Unexpected 0.0 alliances purges! Checking EVE GATE every few minutes... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:31:00 -
[65] - Quote
He got unbanned. Sorry to rain on your parade. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3225
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:31:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it. Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us.
Burn them all. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:32:00 -
[67] - Quote
Burn nullsec RMT/BOTTER ALLIANCES.
BURN! |
Remulon McNab
The Galactic Collective Sovereign Technologies
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:34:00 -
[68] - Quote
I am curious if you guys (CCP) could make a dynamic counter thing that shows information on how many bans have been served and how much isk has been sinked.
so we're able to follow this info "semi-realtime"
at the other hand Sreegs well done (with the anti-RMT+BOT) and we definately sleep better at night. (Did you get Roc Wieler as personal coach )
got #tweetfleet? Follow @ZeroNRG |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3225
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Iniquita wrote:I support this product and/or service.
Though I know that some people are willing just to biomass the character who got the negative wallet and none of their other characters or assets (whom obviously benefited from this illicit activity) remain untouched. Hopefully in the future you will look more closely at people who purchase rmt'd isk because it seems all you need to be willing to do is biomass the character who took the initial wallet it and the person can keep any ill gotten assets they have purchased.
Im not going to name specifics here but I know of at least one person who has been extremely unrepentant. His wallet got hit pretty hard but he had purchased made contract purchases and was able to retain his assets. Another person simply biomassed the character with a negative wallet and plans to purchase a new character from the bazaar.
It seems a bit of an oversight that people can simply purchase isk, buy assets and pass on assets via contracts to alts to avoid the impact of what you are trying to do. Or simply biomass characters with a negative wallet and go on to purchase new characters. Maybe you should consider adding a fee to biomassing or something. We're trying not to be too elaborate right now but we've already had situations where we've just gone ahead and moved the negative balance to a main.
GÖÑHUGSGÖÑ
That's some good god damb burning. KEEP BURNING. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5906
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ruthless Erection wrote:I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0? The market adjusts itself; industrialists flood in to fill the demand; everyone wins.
Quote:Quit bending over backwards for your players. Enough is Enough. Oh, I see. A troll.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:35:00 -
[71] - Quote
Youtube link in the devblog is still borked. The http:// gets inserted twice. If you removed both of them (in Chrome at least) so that it starts www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG13u9KKtzE&feature=plcp&context=C48af305VDvjVQa1PpcFOEzQi5G2x0m06rDf4gwZpUCqNO2vQ4zyo%3D]... then it works.
Also, way cool on this happening. I might seriously consider bring back a couple accounts if the effects are noticeable. I don't always finish my commentary, but when I do |
Shang Fei
The Illuminatii Mildly Intoxicated
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
RMT and botting has nothing to do in this masterpiece of a game, I do believe EVE is quickly becoming a brighter place now that alot of alliances won't be able to bot or RMT to win as much anymore. Gives me a warm feeling in my heart.
<3 Sreegs ur doing a great job along with your team. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ruthless Erection wrote:
I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0?.
means players themselfs will pick up the slack, hell mineral prices are going up all time atm, which is making it worthwhile for the actual miners in game to go mining, knock on effect of is higher costs for a lot of other things, think it's fun to gank something that cant fight back in highsec like hulks, might cause people to reconsider when their destroyers nevermind anything else costs them an arm and a leg. atm sooner or later market prices will stabalize again, be interesting to see what things do stablise at price wise lol.
Quote:CCP's already fubar'd. My account was banned for "RMTing", I sold a motherf***ing character, using the forums, and they said I sold it for real life cash. That's 50mill SP toon I'm not getting back, nor the 8billion it was sold for.
which case pertition it, if you sold the char through the char bazzar then to my knowlage this shouldn't have happened, find the thread you posted into the char bazar and link it in the pertition, fact your able to post on the forums says you have a full account thats active.
Quote:I hope this current "War on Bots" turns around and bites them in the ass. It'll be a well-deserved kick in the butt for the failure of not looking more than 2 ft in front of them.
If players cba putting the effort in, in the first place why should they profit from it? if anything actions against botting and RMT in eve is LONG OVERDUE.
|
Rivur'Tam
the united Negative Ten.
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:38:00 -
[74] - Quote
whats this grass for plex thing if you know someone who is doing rmt u report than and get a plex ??? Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire
^^ my sig was awesome that naugty spitfire stole it for himself true story
United Recruitment Director. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
617
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
Remulon McNab wrote:I am curious if you guys (CCP) could make a dynamic counter thing that shows information on how many bans have been served and how much isk has been sinked. so we're able to follow this info "semi-realtime" at the other hand Sreegs well done (with the anti-RMT+BOT) and we definately sleep better at night. (Did you get Roc Wieler as personal coach )
Not sure we'd be too comfortable with something automated but we will be giving more detailed numbers.
I'm going to the gym with GM Moxie, CCP Soundwave and CCP Mindstar. We're doing something called the Ultimate Anime Workout and Soundwave guarantees it's going to make me go supersaiyan. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3225
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:39:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ruthless Erection wrote:InVictus Kell wrote:From the dev post:
" Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt "
nice, reads like a good 'ol fashion political slogan or old war bond ad from WWII. Typical CCP. I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0?
Then a number of profession which have been effectively abandoned by human players once again become viable, and there are more things to do.
Meanwhile the rest of the community adjusts and re-optimises their doctrines and tactics based on the new, true values of ships and modules.
That all seems pretty good to me.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
617
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:40:00 -
[77] - Quote
Rivur'Tam wrote:whats this grass for plex thing if you know someone who is doing rmt u report than and get a plex ???
It's a bit more complicated than that but if it leads to something big then yes. |
|
Zirise
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
108
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:41:00 -
[78] - Quote
I don't know what the PLEX for Snitches entails, but here's what comes to mind:
1. Buy ISK from some chinese site, have it sent to someone you don't like. 2. 'Snitch' on him. 3. Get a cheap PLEX and your enemy temp banned.
Hopefully you guys have thought of this. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
617
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:42:00 -
[79] - Quote
Zirise wrote:I don't know what the PLEX for Snitches entails, but here's what comes to mind:
1. Buy ISK from some chinese site, have it sent to someone you don't like. 2. 'Snitch' on him. 3. Get a cheap PLEX and your enemy temp banned.
Hopefully you guys have thought of this.
I'm not an idiot. (I hope) |
|
Ren Oren
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:45:00 -
[80] - Quote
WELL DONE CCP
This is excellent.. not really the RMT, but making the player base understand and respect the fact that you are the bosses and not the guys with the internet spaceships.
You've used the Mittani and PL situations beautifully to come out smelling like roses |
|
Georgiy Giggle
The Sith Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:46:00 -
[81] - Quote
AMAZING. Ban all bastards. And take their ISK. +1 Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established. - Confucius |
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
268
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:49:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sreegs, I love you, and I want to have your babies. |
Ximena Navah
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:51:00 -
[83] - Quote
Wicked stuff CCP, it's about time this got introduced.
I heard PL got hit bad |
Allataria
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. By this measuring stick every single MMO ever has been boring. I hear the argument and I'd love to see some data which proves that altering gameplay to meet whatever standard the rather nebulous term "fun" applies to in any way mitigates RMT.
This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec.
Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game.
It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals |
Justin Cody
T.A.L.O.N. Company Psychotic Tendencies.
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:52:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ruthless Erection wrote:InVictus Kell wrote:From the dev post:
" Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt "
nice, reads like a good 'ol fashion political slogan or old war bond ad from WWII. Typical CCP. I hope CCP realizes that by banning the bots, their going to massively alter the in-game market. From what information they've released, about 75% of the current items on the market is bot produced, what happens when that 75% turns to 0? We've seen what happens when plex's get flooded on the market, and when they become scarce. Anyone remember the days when plex's were 300m or less? CCP's already fubar'd. My account was banned for "RMTing", I sold a motherf***ing character, using the forums, and they said I sold it for real life cash. That's 50mill SP toon I'm not getting back, nor the 8billion it was sold for. I hope this current "War on Bots" turns around and bites them in the ass. It'll be a well-deserved kick in the butt for the failure of not looking more than 2 ft in front of them. Also, you pansy CCP guys, perma ban Mittani, make an example. Quit bending over backwards for your players. Enough is Enough.
Well this means you now have a very profitable industrial sector to train for and enter. Or you can play the market. Take your pick. Really as much as the coming price-rise sucks, now is the time to get into industry and make some real profits. Go ahead try it. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
622
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. By this measuring stick every single MMO ever has been boring. I hear the argument and I'd love to see some data which proves that altering gameplay to meet whatever standard the rather nebulous term "fun" applies to in any way mitigates RMT. This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec. Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game. It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals
I'm not in game design. This is the catching badguys department. This refrain has been mentioned time and time again and it's game designs problem. I don't really care why people break very easy to follow rules I just make sure they don't keep doing it. Hopefully that clarifies my response a bit. |
|
Dingurxul
SecTor 8E
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:56:00 -
[87] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.
That is like saying I don't want to work in RL to pay for the things I need/want. We as a society give value to money because it is the direct result of producing or doing something that people value. To remove value from ISK (making it easy to get and thus meaningless) removes all value to things related to it. If the ship that you pewpew and destroy takes no effort to replace, your killing of that ship is meaningless because it has no real value. This in turn removes any value to PVP combat, the thing in which IGÇÖm sure you want to be able to do more of by GÇ£making ISK easierGÇ¥ to get. |
Larofeticus
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:57:00 -
[88] - Quote
As a computer scientist, the idea of a graph and networking problem like this makes my pants tight.
Mmmmm... characters are nodes... digraph with isk transfer amounts as weights, offset by transfered item values...
then you start digging out the patterns. collapse the node paths involving trial accounts... check for sinks, faucets and super connectors... screen out patterns for white listed activity like supercap sales or alliance/corp reimbursments
man it's just such a cool problem from a technical perspective.
It's just so easy to make trial accounts to shuffle things around though. In the short term you want to nail as many vault nodes as possible, but in the long term you have to get the faucet characters because those require the most invested time to set up. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 18:59:00 -
[89] - Quote
I have a few questions:
1) I'd like to see an answer to the earlier question about how far down the chain this goes. Ex: A buys ISK and buys a ship from B, does B get punished/ship transaction reversed/etc?
2) How do you determine "known RMTers"? For example, your comment about making loans to "known RMTers". How do you decide whether a person doing business with the RMTer was aware of their illegal activity or just a legitimate player? Am I at risk of getting banned because I give a loan to someone I thought was a legitimate business opportunity, and it turns out they're a RMTer?
3) How exactly are you planning to deal with the effects of things like removing supercapitals on innocent players? For example, A buys a titan with cash, contributes it to the alliance, and player B actually flies it. Does B lose their titan? If A has a freighter full of assets owned by his corp-mates when he is banned, can those players get their assets back? Are you going to delete RMTed sov-claiming structures, and, if so, how are you going to deal with the fact that a lot of innocent players have just experienced a massive effect on their game? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
633
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:00:00 -
[90] - Quote
Larofeticus wrote:As a computer scientist, the idea of a graph and networking problem like this makes my pants tight.
Mmmmm... characters are nodes... digraph with isk transfer amounts as weights, offset by transfered item values...
then you start digging out the patterns. collapse the node paths involving trial accounts... check for sinks, faucets and super connectors... screen out patterns for white listed activity like supercap sales or alliance/corp reimbursments
man it's just such a cool problem from a technical perspective.
It's just so easy to make trial accounts to shuffle things around though. In the short term you want to nail as many vault nodes as possible, but in the long term you have to get the faucet characters because those require the most invested time to set up.
We have and will continue to discuss changes to trials but our approach has always been to try and design a game that is engaging for people rather than one that's hard for botters if that makes sense. |
|
|
adopt
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
374
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:02:00 -
[91] - Quote
But if CCP purges all bots, how will I pad my KB stats!?! Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
FREE XOLVE ~ THE HERO TEST NEEDS |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:03:00 -
[92] - Quote
/bows to Sreegs Excellent stuff. Keep it going. |
Allataria
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:05:00 -
[93] - Quote
Dingurxul wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. That is like saying I don't want to work in RL to pay for the things I need/want. We as a society give value to money because it is the direct result of producing or doing something that people value. To remove value from ISK (making it easy to get and thus meaningless) removes all value to things related to it. If the ship that you pewpew and destroy takes no effort to replace, your killing of that ship is meaningless because it has no real value. This in turn removes any value to PVP combat, the thing in which IGÇÖm sure you want to be able to do more of by GÇ£making ISK easierGÇ¥ to get.
All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
638
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:06:00 -
[94] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:I have a few questions:
1) I'd like to see an answer to the earlier question about how far down the chain this goes. Ex: A buys ISK and buys a ship from B, does B get punished/ship transaction reversed/etc?
2) How do you determine "known RMTers"? For example, your comment about making loans to "known RMTers". How do you decide whether a person doing business with the RMTer was aware of their illegal activity or just a legitimate player? Am I at risk of getting banned because I give a loan to someone I thought was a legitimate business opportunity, and it turns out they're a RMTer?
3) How exactly are you planning to deal with the effects of things like removing supercapitals on innocent players? For example, A buys a titan with cash, contributes it to the alliance, and player B actually flies it. Does B lose their titan? If A has a freighter full of assets owned by his corp-mates when he is banned, can those players get their assets back? Are you going to delete RMTed sov-claiming structures, and, if so, how are you going to deal with the fact that a lot of innocent players have just experienced a massive effect on their game?
1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well.
2) If I was going to loan someone money I'd make sure I knew who they were etc. In the cases this has popped up the person in question was a well known RMTer. There's no magic formula for this.
3) In RMT nobody is innocent. In your scenario I can't figure out what player B actually lost? They spent nothing and therefore are no worse off than they were before? We'll deal with this on a case by case basis but ultimately if there's an alliance run by RMT then I will end that alliance. It's unfortunate that some people may be negatively impacted by that but their leaders were cheating and we're not going to allow people to cheat. I'll also note that your question is hypothetical and I can't truly answer that until I've seen that scenario. |
|
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:07:00 -
[95] - Quote
adopt wrote:But if CCP purges all bots, how will I pad my KB stats!?!
by sitting on gates in lowsec systems near the newbie starter areas waiting for said newbies to come "explore" lowsec? :)
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
638
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:08:00 -
[96] - Quote
Allataria wrote:Dingurxul wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. That is like saying I don't want to work in RL to pay for the things I need/want. We as a society give value to money because it is the direct result of producing or doing something that people value. To remove value from ISK (making it easy to get and thus meaningless) removes all value to things related to it. If the ship that you pewpew and destroy takes no effort to replace, your killing of that ship is meaningless because it has no real value. This in turn removes any value to PVP combat, the thing in which IGÇÖm sure you want to be able to do more of by GÇ£making ISK easierGÇ¥ to get. All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture.
Now you're either speculating or ignoring what I said. I said game design deals with those issues and we've discussed this in the past. This isn't a fresh or new idea anywhere. I'm sorry if you feel there's a legitimate reason for botting but there isn't and that's basically that. Not liking a game doesn't entitle you to cheat. Ever. At all. Enough with the moral equivalency please. |
|
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:09:00 -
[97] - Quote
Please continue to stomp a mudhole in these bastards. More slamming dicks in doors! |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:10:00 -
[98] - Quote
Excellent, Sreegs.
Can't wait to see how the super cap purge goes |
Ren Oren
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:11:00 -
[99] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Sreegs: Can you address the concern - nay, the undeniable fact - that reporting your foes in-game, whether or not they're actually engaging in any sort of RMT, is going to become a regular tactic nowadays, all the moreso that you're offering an incentive for doing so? Will there be punitive action taken against players who spam lots of reports, especially if investigation into those reports keeps coming up negative?
My concern here is that you're going to create a whole lot of unnecessary workload for yourself investigating all kinds of false reports, which could serve to reduce your effectiveness at dealing with actual RMTers.
hmm someone can feel the ban hammer coming LOL LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT |
Zircon Dasher
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
<3 |
|
Larofeticus
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:16:00 -
[101] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:We have and will continue to discuss changes to trials but our approach has always been to try and design a game that is engaging for people rather than one that's hard for botters if that makes sense.
Why must you focus on the least interesting part of my post? You guys must be up to your armpits in network and graph theory papers and instead you focus on the trial accounts which are almost trivial to abstract right out of the model.
Isk faucet character(s) -> vault character(s) -> RMT customer butte(s)
Unless there is some way for the trial accounts to make RMT magnitude amounts of isk, then they can only be an intermetdiate step between faucet and butte. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:17:00 -
[102] - Quote
Kick em in the teeth Sreegs. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
62
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:17:00 -
[103] - Quote
burn them with fire! |
Stragak
Mangi Consilii S E D I T I O N
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:18:00 -
[104] - Quote
Me love you long time Sreegs Nobody cares about your plans to be dirty hippies. goon (n)-áthefreedictionary A thug hired to intimidate or harm opponents A stupid or oafish person.
|
Clolo
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:20:00 -
[105] - Quote
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but have you thought of running a "police auction" with all the confiscated assets? |
Days Mahyisti
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:20:00 -
[106] - Quote
I don't wanna be the Snitch here, but I think this guy named RANdom 01 is using a bot. I've seen him botting or what I suspect as botting always around 1 am to maybe 5 am. Me and my Corp. have seen him multiple times during Mining Operations (I was using my other Character, not this one) I leave it up to you, CCP, to decided what to do with him. Botting is not cool and unfair for the rest of us. Mei Ling Cobon-Han is my Main |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:23:00 -
[107] - Quote
good work but why did it take so long to have a team dedicated to this? |
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:27:00 -
[108] - Quote
HOT DAMN
urban dictionary: an exclamation of astonishment or approval
Quote: On a personal note, CCP Soundwave's cosplay-fit 6pack abs have inspired me to purchase a gym membership so all of you who have expressed heartfelt concern about my physical health may now sleep easier!
May I punch the abs to see how tough they are next time at fanfest ?
CCP Security = Tough Guys |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:[2) If I was going to loan someone money I'd make sure I knew who they were etc. In the cases this has popped up the person in question was a well known RMTer. There's no magic formula for this. And what about less brazen RMTers? Should we just be taking someone's word that the isk they're loaning me (or vice versa) or the modules they're selling me or what have you aren't dirty?
Perhaps we're being overly hysterical here but this comment is treading awfully close to the "It's YOUR job to police OUR game" ground, and it has rather significant implications for a lot of ingame activity. |
Celebris Nexterra
Lowsec Static
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:30:00 -
[110] - Quote
Moar bot **** plz. |
|
SlayerOfArgus
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:30:00 -
[111] - Quote
Days Mahyisti wrote:I don't wanna be the Snitch here, but I think this guy named RANdom 01 is using a bot. I've seen him botting or what I suspect as botting always around 1 am to maybe 5 am. Me and my Corp. have seen him multiple times during Mining Operations (I was using my other Character, not this one) I leave it up to you, CCP, to decided what to do with him. Botting is not cool and unfair for the rest of us. Mei Ling Cobon-Han is my Main
If you haven't filed a petition yet, do so.
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
642
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Larofeticus wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We have and will continue to discuss changes to trials but our approach has always been to try and design a game that is engaging for people rather than one that's hard for botters if that makes sense. Why must you focus on the least interesting part of my post? You guys must be up to your armpits in network and graph theory papers and instead you focus on the trial accounts which are almost trivial to abstract right out of the model. Isk faucet character(s) -> vault character(s) -> RMT customer butte(s) Unless there is some way for the trial accounts to make RMT magnitude amounts of isk, then they can only be an intermetdiate step between faucet and butte.
We don't discuss sources or methods so I commented on the part of the post that I could. You are correct that it is indeed an interesting problem which is why we were super excited to be able to work on it. Also I get to yell at Stillman all day. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
642
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:34:00 -
[113] - Quote
Clolo wrote:I don't know if this has been mentioned, but have you thought of running a "police auction" with all the confiscated assets?
It's been theorized but I don't think we'd use it in this application because in most cases the assets simply shouldn't exist so we're more focused on fixing the glitch in the economy by removing them. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
642
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:35:00 -
[114] - Quote
Days Mahyisti wrote:I don't wanna be the Snitch here, but I think this guy named RANdom 01 is using a bot. I've seen him botting or what I suspect as botting always around 1 am to maybe 5 am. Me and my Corp. have seen him multiple times during Mining Operations (I was using my other Character, not this one) I leave it up to you, CCP, to decided what to do with him. Botting is not cool and unfair for the rest of us. Mei Ling Cobon-Han is my Main
PLEX are only for snitches. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
658
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:good work but why did it take so long to have a team dedicated to this?
You'd have to ask management that question. This falls under the purview of the Sr. Producer so you have CCP Unifex to thank. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
658
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:36:00 -
[116] - Quote
Lemming Alpha1dash1 wrote:HOT DAMNurban dictionary: an exclamation of astonishment or approval Quote: On a personal note, CCP Soundwave's cosplay-fit 6pack abs have inspired me to purchase a gym membership so all of you who have expressed heartfelt concern about my physical health may now sleep easier! May I punch the abs to see how tough they are next time at fanfest ? CCP Security = Tough Guys
You may only punch me in game |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
658
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:37:00 -
[117] - Quote
corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:[2) If I was going to loan someone money I'd make sure I knew who they were etc. In the cases this has popped up the person in question was a well known RMTer. There's no magic formula for this. And what about less brazen RMTers? Should we just be taking someone's word that the isk they're loaning me (or vice versa) or the modules they're selling me or what have you aren't dirty? Perhaps we're being overly hysterical here but this comment is treading awfully close to the "It's YOUR job to police OUR game" ground, and it has rather significant implications for a lot of ingame activity.
I don't believe it has significant implications for a lot of ingame activity. When I or you run into a problem with it let us know but in the meantime just assume you can Remain Calm. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
658
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:38:00 -
[118] - Quote
SlayerOfArgus wrote:Days Mahyisti wrote:I don't wanna be the Snitch here, but I think this guy named RANdom 01 is using a bot. I've seen him botting or what I suspect as botting always around 1 am to maybe 5 am. Me and my Corp. have seen him multiple times during Mining Operations (I was using my other Character, not this one) I leave it up to you, CCP, to decided what to do with him. Botting is not cool and unfair for the rest of us. Mei Ling Cobon-Han is my Main If you haven't filed a petition yet, do so.
Actually just use the report bot feature in the client. It's more streamlined. |
|
Raivi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
81
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:39:00 -
[119] - Quote
Great job Sreegs. Looks like this is having a great effect already and if you guys can keep doing it every day it should be a game changer.
Also big thanks to CCP Unifex for bringing the security team back! |
Jieirn Devau
Aperture Reach Hades.
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:40:00 -
[120] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You may only punch me in game
Is this an announcement of an official feature? |
|
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
191
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:40:00 -
[121] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Lemming Alpha1dash1 wrote:HOT DAMNurban dictionary: an exclamation of astonishment or approval Quote: On a personal note, CCP Soundwave's cosplay-fit 6pack abs have inspired me to purchase a gym membership so all of you who have expressed heartfelt concern about my physical health may now sleep easier! May I punch the abs to see how tough they are next time at fanfest ? CCP Security = Tough Guys You may only punch me in game
Punching In Stations: coming soon to Eve Online |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:40:00 -
[122] - Quote
Ah, Yeah.
|
Jim Luc
Rule of Five
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:41:00 -
[123] - Quote
One thing you mentioned, that CCP is the ONLY legal seller of PLEX. I think this should be clarified, as there are many authorized sellers of Game Time Codes, that can be converted to PLEX. Or am I confused on this issue?? |
Clolo
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:41:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Clolo wrote:I don't know if this has been mentioned, but have you thought of running a "police auction" with all the confiscated assets? It's been theorized but I don't think we'd use it in this application because in most cases the assets simply shouldn't exist so we're more focused on fixing the glitch in the economy by removing them.
I know what you mean. I was just hoping for another way to pull more isk out of the economy. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
658
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
Jim Luc wrote:One thing you mentioned, that CCP is the ONLY legal seller of PLEX. I think this should be clarified, as there are many authorized sellers of Game Time Codes, that can be converted to PLEX. Or am I confused on this issue??
I was only referring to PLEX. I need to do more research into GTCs so what I say is buy PLEX. |
|
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:44:00 -
[126] - Quote
Hi Sreegs,
It has been suggested I ask this here rather than in the thread I started in EVE GeneralDiscussion:-
With CCP now, effectively, declaring war on RMT and botting are you able to say what CCP's policy is regarding people who are seen to regularly cheat?
To elaborate, if you see the same people botting/RMTing and having their accounts banned only to start up new accounts to carry on their activities do CCP have any policy for banning people from the game?
I appreciate you may not be able to give an answer but I am curious as to whether you have a policy like this in place as an ultimate deterrent for cheaters.
PAN
PS, I am assuming that it's an EULA violation to give false/misleading personal information when setting up an account. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:45:00 -
[127] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Hi Sreegs,
It has been suggested I ask this here rather than in the thread I started in EVE GeneralDiscussion:-
With CCP now, effectively, declaring war on RMT and botting are you able to say what CCP's policy is regarding people who are seen to regularly cheat?
To elaborate, if you see the same people botting/RMTing and having their accounts banned only to start up new accounts to carry on their activities do CCP have any policy for banning people from the game?
I appreciate you may not be able to give an answer but I am curious as to whether you have a policy like this in place as an ultimate deterrent for cheaters.
PAN
PS, I am assuming that it's an EULA violation to give false/misleading personal information when setting up an account.
I mentioned the need to improve the ID/AUTH system in my Fanfest presentation and I think this partially speaks to that. We're also going to have to add some layers into what we're doing, but you are correct that this should be a consideration. :) |
|
Jani Inkura
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:45:00 -
[128] - Quote
Very, very cool!!!
Now..... about these null sec goons who've moved to Hi sec with shiny new characters.. lol Just kidding.. I think... heehee |
Chiggy W
Hard-Luck Industries
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:49:00 -
[129] - Quote
Sreegs, Hero of Eve online, Who woulda thought
Just want to say thank you for all the hardwork yourself and your team have done to bring the pain to cheaters. I can't believe I am saying this to an (Ex)Goon, but thank you thank you thank you.
Keep up the good work fella's. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 19:53:00 -
[130] - Quote
Pubbies missing facts? Why I never! |
|
ThatSourDiesel
Mafia Redux Black Legion.
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:00:00 -
[131] - Quote
Quote:The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP.
This was in the blog. Does this mean that other online retailers for PLEX, like Shattered Crystal and Battleclinic, are ILLEGAL sellers? I didn't think they were, but your post confuses me.
Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!! |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
420
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:02:00 -
[132] - Quote
Well, that's a devblog which I've read with a smile on my face... EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Ike Snicklefritz
Pink Fuzzy Dice
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:02:00 -
[133] - Quote
ThatSourDiesel wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP. This was in the blog. Does this mean that other online retailers for PLEX, like Shattered Crystal and Battleclinic, are ILLEGAL sellers? I didn't think they were, but your post confuses me. Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!!
See the clarifications upthread. Shattered Crystal and Battleclinic sell Game Time Codes, not PLEX. Approved GTC resellers like them are fine. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
682
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:03:00 -
[134] - Quote
ThatSourDiesel wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP. This was in the blog. Does this mean that other online retailers for PLEX, like Shattered Crystal and Battleclinic, are ILLEGAL sellers? I didn't think they were, but your post confuses me. Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!!
They don't sell plex. I'd clarify but to be honest I know very little about those relationships. |
|
Yaba Yaba
Massively Profitable
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:03:00 -
[135] - Quote
Question, as per this topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=91174
tl;dr: can you ransom botters (send a mail and hope they read it after you blow them up) under the premise that you won't report them or bother them again (but of course do both those things).
Basically, scamming them for ISK on false premise (legal in EVE), but the ISK is tainted (illegal and might get taken away) |
Komen
Capital Enrichment Services
65
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:03:00 -
[136] - Quote
I watched the presentation video from fanfest (wasn't able, alas, to make it...still have yet to go to one), and have read the blog, and this thread.
Mui impressive. It took long enough, but you're making up for it with the running start, and the shorter window they have, and all this other good stuff.
Fast, hard clap for you, CCP Sreegs, and all of your team and other devs who help out. Bravo. Encore, Encore. |
Darirol
Cold Steel Evolution Against ALL Authorities
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:04:00 -
[137] - Quote
i have already seen that security fanfest video and its nice to see ccp finaly does something against those cheaters. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
685
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:05:00 -
[138] - Quote
Yaba Yaba wrote:Question, as per this topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=91174tl;dr: can you ransom botters (send a mail and hope they read it after you blow them up) under the premise that you won't report them or bother them again (but of course do both those things). Basically, scamming them for ISK on false premise (legal in EVE), but the ISK is tainted (illegal and might get taken away)
I'll have to get back to you on that. I believe it would be fine but it's a hypothetical. Bots get dinged for isk generated and we're not looking at passing that on unless it's going bad places. |
|
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:06:00 -
[139] - Quote
HELIC0N ONE wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Lemming Alpha1dash1 wrote:HOT DAMNurban dictionary: an exclamation of astonishment or approval Quote: On a personal note, CCP Soundwave's cosplay-fit 6pack abs have inspired me to purchase a gym membership so all of you who have expressed heartfelt concern about my physical health may now sleep easier! May I punch the abs to see how tough they are next time at fanfest ? CCP Security = Tough Guys You may only punch me in game Punching In Stations: coming soon to Eve Online
Dam 1800 Tornado's to punch through the 28th in Jita to get to CCP Sreegs ingame (ex-little bee, always little bee right )
Its easier to shake your hand at fanfest then if you will allow it , just want to say great job at getting rid of the non eve players |
Deitis Surtic
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:11:00 -
[140] - Quote
Good stuff. You fixed any of the alt accounts that have been put into negative ISK due to alleged RMT, yet?
For reference; an alt is - believe it or not - not another person! :) |
|
Yaba Yaba
Massively Profitable
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:11:00 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Yaba Yaba wrote:Question, as per this topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=91174tl;dr: can you ransom botters (send a mail and hope they read it after you blow them up) under the premise that you won't report them or bother them again (but of course do both those things). Basically, scamming them for ISK on false premise (legal in EVE), but the ISK is tainted (illegal and might get taken away) I'll have to get back to you on that. I believe it would be fine but it's a hypothetical. Bots get dinged for isk generated and we're not looking at passing that on unless it's going bad places.
Please do so. I would love to know where that stands. =) |
elitatwo
Congregatio
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:12:00 -
[142] - Quote
Wooohw, while reading the post got to page 8.
I can only agree and give you a solid +12 for doing this!
Thank you for your work CCP and continue to do so! |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
149
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:13:00 -
[143] - Quote
yes! This is maybe the best news I've heard in 8 years of playing eve! Well definitely alongside apocrypha and trinity on the awesome meter...
This is the kind of action that needs to take place. RMT/botting is an arms race. Every year botters will become more efficient and RMT will expand unless the anti-botting practices are constantly stepped up in kind. To anyone who thinks these actions are extreme, I'm telling you it's what has to be done to stop RMT from eventually consuming the game, just look at other MMOs that are 10 years old, it's not pretty.
I still think a bi-weekly or monthly popup (in the launcher/login screen) should come up reminding people that RMT is bad, along with the general statistics (accounts banned/isk removed). Many RMTers are either ignorant, or they talk themselves into it ("RMT is cheaper... ccp probably won't catch me... ok I'll RMT just this once, etc"). |
Dubaschu
BJ TitsnEvE
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:15:00 -
[144] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it. Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us.
This is excellent news indeed! Hit them hard!
CCP, Me and another player have spotted a corp that all run around in CNR's that are Bot missioning, Do we report each player or the corp? Partition? If anyone war dec's this corp they then all jump to new corps with all there sexy CNR's.
Dubaschu |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
691
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:17:00 -
[145] - Quote
Dubaschu wrote:CCP Guard wrote:Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it. Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us. This is excellent news indeed! Hit them hard! CCP, Me and another player have spotted a corp that all run around in CNR's that are Bot Mining, Do we report each player or the corp? Partition? If anyone war dec's this corp they then all jump to new corps with all there sexy CNR's. Dubaschu
If it's a whole corp just sent me an email to [email protected]. You can also use the report bot function in game. Believe it or not it does do ~something~ |
|
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:18:00 -
[146] - Quote
Sreegs for president !
|
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:20:00 -
[147] - Quote
+1 from me. Well done and carry on. I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:23:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well. So, basically, you have been given carte-blanche to shut down the game by banning every single account producing anything for market if you deem necessary. It's not like we can choose who to sell to on the eve market.
No offense, but I think I'll just switch my production chars from 12 month subscriptions to a monthly / as needed basis. Having 250 SP in industry is starting to feel like a security feature.
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
691
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:24:00 -
[149] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well. So, basically, you have been given carte-blanche to shut down the game by banning every single account producing anything for market if you deem necessary. It's not like we can choose who to sell to on the eve market. No offense, but I think I'll just switch my production chars from 12 month subscriptions to a monthly / as needed basis. Having 250 SP in industry is starting to feel like a security feature.
I'm pretty sure you're going a bit overboard here. |
|
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
453
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:24:00 -
[150] - Quote
so it begins. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5906
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:25:00 -
[151] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Sreegs for president ! Nah.
Sreegs for empress!
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Panties and Stockings
Bro Tech
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:25:00 -
[152] - Quote
What's going to happen to the people who got caught in the crossfire? |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
75
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:25:00 -
[153] - Quote
To the person complaining about boring isk making activities as a reason why rmt exists. To be honest, the reason most people do this is because of time, not because the activity is boring. You could have the greatest isk making activity ever but if it took days/weeks to do, people would still pull out their credit card and buy isk as it only takes a few minutes.
I'm curious as to see if market prices will increase or drop because of these actions. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Karim alRashid wrote:Sreegs for president ! Nah. Sreegs for empress! Sreegs is very much a dude.
I mean, unless he got as drunk as he was at fanfest that one year and took a trip to Trinidad... |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:27:00 -
[155] - Quote
Panties and Stockings wrote:What's going to happen to the people who got caught in the crossfire?
They've been repaired as they've been discovered but I will reiterate something I said in the blog which is that nobody truely innocent has thus far been determined to have been caught in this crossfire...
We've had people do illegal things that cause the system to mislabel them a bit because... what they did was indeed illegal. |
|
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:30:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mioelnir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well. So, basically, you have been given carte-blanche to shut down the game by banning every single account producing anything for market if you deem necessary. It's not like we can choose who to sell to on the eve market. No offense, but I think I'll just switch my production chars from 12 month subscriptions to a monthly / as needed basis. Having 250 SP in industry is starting to feel like a security feature. I'm pretty sure you're going a bit overboard here.
I would say it's more likely they are deliberately mis-representing the facts for reasons of their own.
Not saying what those reasons might be but if I were you I would investigate these people for possible RMT infractions. Plus the ones who have responses like "Now I am not defending RMT but if you take action against it it fooks up the game for everyone".
But you've already thought of that haven't you?
PAN
|
Lacco
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:30:00 -
[157] - Quote
Quote:While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans". This is completely unacceptable behavior and in each instance thus far the purchased accounts were left closed and the loaned isk remained frozen.
I'm sad to see CCP makes claim of this sort. Just roughly three weeks ago GM's banned characters amarri4 and Norlana (who are both friends of mine) who received a plex free of charge at Jita. Supposedly these characters were tagged as result and were immidiately banned after the incident.
How ever, what happened next was that amarri4's petitions were answered and he was unbanned. Norlana remains banned, and his petitions remain unanswered, nor does he have received email to clarify what is the current status of his account.
This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
185
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:31:00 -
[158] - Quote
Good Stuff. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:32:00 -
[159] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mioelnir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well. So, basically, you have been given carte-blanche to shut down the game by banning every single account producing anything for market if you deem necessary. It's not like we can choose who to sell to on the eve market. No offense, but I think I'll just switch my production chars from 12 month subscriptions to a monthly / as needed basis. Having 250 SP in industry is starting to feel like a security feature. I'm pretty sure you're going a bit overboard here.
Good. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:33:00 -
[160] - Quote
Lacco wrote:Quote:While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans". This is completely unacceptable behavior and in each instance thus far the purchased accounts were left closed and the loaned isk remained frozen. I'm sad to see CCP makes claim of this sort. Just roughly three weeks ago GM's banned characters amarri4 and Norlana (who are both friends of mine) who received a plex free of charge at Jita. Supposedly these characters were tagged as result and were immidiately banned after the incident. How ever, what happened next was that amarri4's petitions were answered and he was unbanned. Norlana remains banned, and his petitions remain unanswered, nor does he have received email to clarify what is the current status of his account. This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time.
I'm not a GM and can't speak for what they do. You should take this up with them as it has nothing to do with this thread or the work of my team. What I said stands and is 100% accurate. |
|
|
Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
306
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:34:00 -
[161] - Quote
Simply awesome Sreegs.
CSM7 Skype Leak
|
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:34:00 -
[162] - Quote
Lacco wrote:This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time.
Can I have your stuff?
PAN |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:34:00 -
[163] - Quote
RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.
i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp |
Zaxix
Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog
51
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:36:00 -
[164] - Quote
KICK MOAR ASS, PLEASE!!!!
Go go gadget bot killer! Red Frog--Hisec Courier Black Frog--Losec/Nosec Courier
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
701
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:37:00 -
[165] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.
i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp
I won't comment on individual cases except to point to my earlier statement and attest to its accuracy. |
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:38:00 -
[166] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:1) Right now we haven't had to go any farther than the consumer ie the guy who made the purchase. If things change we will as well.
Under what circumstances would you consider going beyond that level?
Quote:2) If I was going to loan someone money I'd make sure I knew who they were etc. In the cases this has popped up the person in question was a well known RMTer. There's no magic formula for this.
My point is how do you know that someone is a RMTer? I'm assuming this wasn't a character named CheapIskFast1234, so how are you supposed to know that they're RMTing? Please keep in mind that accusations of RMTing and/or botting are incredibly popular, and your refusal to discuss the details of RMT/botting-related bans publicly ensures that we have no way of knowing which accusations are legitimate and which are just the usual forum trolling.
Quote:3) In RMT nobody is innocent. In your scenario I can't figure out what player B actually lost? They spent nothing and therefore are no worse off than they were before?
How about time? For example, spending months/years contributing to the alliance, giving ISK, etc, with the expectation that once you reach a certain level in the alliance you get a supercapital. You put in that hard work, you are given the ship that you (as far as you're concerned) have legitimately earned. Except wait, turns out someone in the alliance was RMTing and now your ship has been deleted.
What do you have to say to that person? Too bad, we have to punish the guilty even if it means people who weren't involved have to suffer? Have fun in WoW now that you quit the game? You can claim "we don't allow cheating" all you want, but that isn't going to change the perception of that player that they have been unjustly punished.
Quote:We'll deal with this on a case by case basis but ultimately if there's an alliance run by RMT then I will end that alliance. It's unfortunate that some people may be negatively impacted by that but their leaders were cheating and we're not going to allow people to cheat.
So how do you compensate the people who didn't RMT but got punished anyway? You "end" an alliance because of what some of the leaders did, reverse their station ownership, etc. Now suddenly I log back on and find all of my (legitimately earned RMT-free) stuff trapped in a hostile station where I don't have docking rights.
Are you going to have a GM move my stuff out to a safe station, or are you going to just tell me to shut up and deal with the consequences of someone else cheating?
Quote:I'll also note that your question is hypothetical and I can't truly answer that until I've seen that scenario.
This is not true at all.
If you're going to interfere in a high-stakes game like alliance warfare, you MUST have procedures in place to handle the fallout. It is unacceptable to just declare "we'll deal with it when it happens', and the rules should be public so that everyone knows that these cases will be handled fairly and consistently. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:39:00 -
[167] - Quote
The thinly-veiled tears here are delicious.
Bots for the bot throne. ISK for the ISK throne. "The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
Moon Kitten
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:39:00 -
[168] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.
i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp
If that did happen then Sreegs will take that into account, work out what it was about those specific users that triggered a false positive and fix it and move on. Do you really think they should do nothing, ever, unless they can be 100% sure (which is impossible) that no false positives occur? Don't be childish, it's not like they'd leave those people banned after verifying they were doing reimbursements. |
Lacco
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:40:00 -
[169] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Lacco wrote:Quote:While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans". This is completely unacceptable behavior and in each instance thus far the purchased accounts were left closed and the loaned isk remained frozen. I'm sad to see CCP makes claim of this sort. Just roughly three weeks ago GM's banned characters amarri4 and Norlana (who are both friends of mine) who received a plex free of charge at Jita. Supposedly these characters were tagged as result and were immidiately banned after the incident. How ever, what happened next was that amarri4's petitions were answered and he was unbanned. Norlana remains banned, and his petitions remain unanswered, nor does he have received email to clarify what is the current status of his account. This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time. I'm not a GM and can't speak for what they do. You should take this up with them as it has nothing to do with this thread or the work of my team. What I said stands and is 100% accurate.
The chain of petitions have been cooking for three weeks now and there is no progress. The quality of customer support from CCP is abysmal.
What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit. |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:41:00 -
[170] - Quote
CCP Sreegs for President of Eve for LIFE!
Also why does Sreegs not have a signature? Most CCP people have one. Stuff Goes here |
|
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:41:00 -
[171] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.
i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp I won't comment on individual cases except to point to my earlier statement and attest to its accuracy.
i didn't ask for an individual cases...u said "loan money" ...if some1 is doing reimbursements out of corp wallet to an effected account would that cause issues? |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:42:00 -
[172] - Quote
Lacco wrote:
What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.
Really? Want to read this thread and see how few people are whinging like you compared to people like myself who are happy that something is finally being done about the serial cheaters who spoil this game?
PAN
|
MissGemini
Lightshift Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:44:00 -
[173] - Quote
@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:45:00 -
[174] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:TOO MUCH TEXT TO QUOTE
1) I'm not dealing in hypotheticals. I'm also not hamstringing myself. So no comment. 2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you. 3) Not doing hypotheticals.
You may disagree but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to deal in hypotheticals. That's my answer and the only one I'm going to give. None of these scenarios have happened and to be honest I don't find it a very productive use of my time to guess what could happen if maybe something might occur at some perhaps somewhat random chance based on some hidden algorithm whenever.
We will deal with situations as they arise and each one will be unique. That's the nature of this business. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:45:00 -
[175] - Quote
MissGemini wrote:@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this?
[email protected] I'm the only one who sees it |
|
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:45:00 -
[176] - Quote
MissGemini wrote:@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this?
Not post in a thread that the whole of EVE can read with the name of your main asking how you can do this?
PAN
|
Lacco
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:45:00 -
[177] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Lacco wrote:
What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.
Really? Want to read this thread and see how few people are whinging like you compared to people like myself who are happy that something is finally being done about the serial cheaters who spoil this game? PAN
I'm talking about the community whose member has been banned for receiving a plex in Jita. I'm all up for fighting against RMT botters etc. but the fact that there are mistakes done by people who bann the **** out of players is concidered to be inexistent.
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:46:00 -
[178] - Quote
Lacco wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Lacco wrote:Quote:While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans". This is completely unacceptable behavior and in each instance thus far the purchased accounts were left closed and the loaned isk remained frozen. I'm sad to see CCP makes claim of this sort. Just roughly three weeks ago GM's banned characters amarri4 and Norlana (who are both friends of mine) who received a plex free of charge at Jita. Supposedly these characters were tagged as result and were immidiately banned after the incident. How ever, what happened next was that amarri4's petitions were answered and he was unbanned. Norlana remains banned, and his petitions remain unanswered, nor does he have received email to clarify what is the current status of his account. This kind of activity where CCP blindfold hunts for RMT will lead to a disaster and many of those who are innocent will get banned. As a result I'm concidering closing all my accounts and start looking for another game if this problem remains unsolved for longer period of time. I'm not a GM and can't speak for what they do. You should take this up with them as it has nothing to do with this thread or the work of my team. What I said stands and is 100% accurate. The chain of petitions have been cooking for three weeks now and there is no progress. The quality of customer support from CCP is abysmal. What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.
I understand that and I'm informing you that this isn't the customer service thread. Take it up with them please. Neither I nor anyone else can do a single thing for you in this thread. |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
492
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:48:00 -
[179] - Quote
I am concerned about the "enabling RMT sellers via providing them with 'loans' thing.
I make hundreds of millions a month and more by loaning to people, how do I know they are not RMTers?
Those who are not stupid are not going to show as one.
One year ago I held collateral for a guy who in turn had stuff given by a RMTer. This has caused me incredibly absurd issues for weeks to no end and all what CCP did to me when I petitioned, was a grand STFU - our logs show nothing.
Are we going to see people like Chribba (he does my same "EvE job") being banned and purple letter flagged because they unknowingly dealt with somebody related to RMT?
Second thing, who is going to be so stupid to mine (and ice mining more so) even now that it's supposed to become profitable?
It's a dull mechanic that is completely identical to botting even when done legitimately. It'll be just too risky, there's no way to detect a bot vs a real miner sitting for 18 minutes doing nothing, then unloading, warping back to the same bookmark and mining again.
Or there might be ways to discern them but CCP does not know them, as I have seen banned people who I chatted all the time with while they were mining, while in the same system and sitting next to each other.
As I posted many times, it's very cool you finally started hitting botters, RMTers and cheaters but there ARE false positives (which you dismissed) and they have no way whatsoever to prove they were not cheating.
Edit: and no the "we are not the customer service department" is not a valid excuse. You HAVE to have functional backend to sustain your bannings else we'll just get an even worse customer service than we have now, where petitions can sit there for weeks. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kimiko Tojima
Daughters of Hada
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:48:00 -
[180] - Quote
Burn 'em all !!
+12 for an exquisite bot vs bot |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:49:00 -
[181] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:RE: "While there were reports of false positives related to this event, thus far every single valid "false" positive we've investigated was tagged because they had actually done something wrong, in most cases purchasing an account illegally or enabling RMT sellers via providing them with "loans"." -team security - now with 100% more anti-rmt dev blog.
i heard early on that people who did reimbursements for alliances ( ie: u lose a ship in pvp, post the kill mail and the alliance pays you for that ship) recieved punishement as well. can you confirm this? if so that would be a huge problem. its not our job to figure out who trades illegallly; its urs ccp I won't comment on individual cases except to point to my earlier statement and attest to its accuracy. i didn't ask for an individual cases...dev blog said "loan money" ...if some1 is doing reimbursements out of corp wallet to an effected account would that cause issues?
This is getting a bit silly. I'm not going to get pigeonholed into telling you that reimbursements are ok and have people claim every time they get caught funding an isk selling operation that they're doing "reimbursements".
It's pretty simple. If you're involved in selling isk then yes you will be seen as being involved in selling isk. If something happens to you petition it. |
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DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:50:00 -
[182] - Quote
Nice one...
Just remember, some of us do LOAN isk out to others, and I have given out bazillions out in the past. I can see false positives come about with this and GM's refusing to talk to you because you have had that tag applied. I know my account has had more than one tag applied (AND REMOVED) but as of yet I dont think RMT or Botting was one of them. Grimmi refuses to talk to me these days so god knows if he removed it all.
The main problem is that CCP doesnt make it easy enough for people wishing to take part in RMT to know they can do it with TimeCodes. I seen some users one day talking about buying isk (was a few years ago) and they were complaining about how much it would cost and it was more expensive than time codes!... When I suggesed it to them they didnt know how it worked. In all fairness it was a long while ago and CCP hadnt been selling isk for that long.
Open up your doors to people wanting to buy isk and explain to them how to do it. The buyers are the ones who enable these markets to continue.
In the past when escrow was around it was easy to spot isk sellers. These days it's not as transparent. I think some guys still do it via contracts by selling gear at a hugely overpriced rate, or selling it at a huge undervalued rate (so the person buying can then profit on the trade). You will probably never stamp it out, but making the users who want to buy isk more arware of the TimeCode is the best solution. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:51:00 -
[183] - Quote
Lacco wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Lacco wrote:
What I think this kind of public image you give out of banning your customers is going to cost CCP valuable long term customers. Our whole community is upset for this bullshit.
Really? Want to read this thread and see how few people are whinging like you compared to people like myself who are happy that something is finally being done about the serial cheaters who spoil this game? PAN I'm talking about the community whose member has been banned for receiving a plex in Jita. I'm all up for fighting against RMT botters etc. but the fact that there are mistakes done by people who bann the **** out of players is concidered to be inexistent.
I'm not sure I can make it any clearer for you buddy this isn't the right thread for you to post in so stop. You're not talking about my team. We didn't ban anyone three weeks ago. File a petition and deal with the GMs who actually did this. Please stop sidetracking my thread. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:52:00 -
[184] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am concerned about the "enabling RMT sellers via providing them with 'loans' thing.
I make hundreds of millions a month and more by loaning to people, how do I know they are not RMTers?
Those who are not stupid are not going to show as one.
One year ago I held collateral for a guy who in turn had stuff given by a RMTer. This has caused me incredibly absurd issues for weeks to no end and all what CCP did to me when I petitioned, was a grand STFU - our logs show nothing.
Are we going to see people like Chribba (he does my same "EvE job") being banned and purple letter flagged because they unknowingly dealt with somebody related to RMT?
Second thing, who is going to be so stupid to mine (and ice mining more so) even now that it's supposed to become profitable?
It's a dull mechanic that is completely identical to botting even when done legitimately. It'll be just too risky, there's no way to detect a bot vs a real miner sitting for 18 minutes doing nothing, then unloading, warping back to the same bookmark and mining again.
Or there might be ways to discern them but CCP does not know them, as I have seen banned people who I chatted all the time with while they were mining, while in the same system and sitting next to each other.
As I posted many times, it's very cool you finally started hitting botters, RMTers and cheaters but there ARE false positives (which you dismissed) and they have no way whatsoever to prove they were not cheating.
Edit: and no the "we are not the customer service department" is not a valid excuse. You HAVE to have functional backend to sustain your bannings else we'll just get an even worse customer service than we have now, where petitions can sit there for weeks.
You're wrong. We can move on. |
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pewpsi
Of the Neutral Planet
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:52:00 -
[185] - Quote
YES! This makes me soooo happy!!! Absolutely hate botters and the damn people running them and spamming the market with their crap can go play WOW or F*** themselves.
CCP devs making me happy
You guys are doing great lately!! Good work!! |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:53:00 -
[186] - Quote
re:Vaerah Vahrokha
exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:53:00 -
[187] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:Nice one...
Just remember, some of us do LOAN isk out to others, and I have given out bazillions out in the past. I can see false positives come about with this and GM's refusing to talk to you because you have had that tag applied. I know my account has had more than one tag applied (AND REMOVED) but as of yet I dont think RMT or Botting was one of them. Grimmi refuses to talk to me these days so god knows if he removed it all.
The main problem is that CCP doesnt make it easy enough for people wishing to take part in RMT to know they can do it with TimeCodes. I seen some users one day talking about buying isk (was a few years ago) and they were complaining about how much it would cost and it was more expensive than time codes!... When I suggesed it to them they didnt know how it worked. In all fairness it was a long while ago and CCP hadnt been selling isk for that long.
Open up your doors to people wanting to buy isk and explain to them how to do it. The buyers are the ones who enable these markets to continue.
In the past when escrow was around it was easy to spot isk sellers. These days it's not as transparent. I think some guys still do it via contracts by selling gear at a hugely overpriced rate, or selling it at a huge undervalued rate (so the person buying can then profit on the trade). You will probably never stamp it out, but making the users who want to buy isk more arware of the TimeCode is the best solution.
With this blog post we ran an in game splash ad to help direct people here so they know how to buy plex. There are other discussions on the table. |
|
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
507
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:54:00 -
[188] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: 2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.
because you as the one who gives the loan are looking like an isk seller on ethe other party comes under scrutiny which means you do not only stand to lose your money but also your eve account |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
705
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:54:00 -
[189] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:re:Vaerah Vahrokha
exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction.
When this happens is the time I'd recommend getting mad about it. In all seriousness I can't defend a position that hasn't occurred. |
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
707
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:55:00 -
[190] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: 2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.
because you as the one who gives the loan are looking like an isk seller on ethe other party comes under scrutiny which means you do not only stand to lose your money but also your eve account
When this happens we'll talk. |
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Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
765
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:55:00 -
[191] - Quote
Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegs!!!!! Great job! Also great job to those helping you.
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
707
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:57:00 -
[192] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegs!!!!! Great job! Also great job to those helping you.
CCP Stillman's the main man on this project. |
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Jim Luc
Rule of Five
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:58:00 -
[193] - Quote
By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore.
Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:58:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am concerned about the "enabling RMT sellers via providing them with 'loans' thing.
I make hundreds of millions a month and more by loaning to people, how do I know they are not RMTers?
Those who are not stupid are not going to show as one.
One year ago I held collateral for a guy who in turn had stuff given by a RMTer. This has caused me incredibly absurd issues for weeks to no end and all what CCP did to me when I petitioned, was a grand STFU - our logs show nothing.
Are we going to see people like Chribba (he does my same "EvE job") being banned and purple letter flagged because they unknowingly dealt with somebody related to RMT?
Second thing, who is going to be so stupid to mine (and ice mining more so) even now that it's supposed to become profitable?
It's a dull mechanic that is completely identical to botting even when done legitimately. It'll be just too risky, there's no way to detect a bot vs a real miner sitting for 18 minutes doing nothing, then unloading, warping back to the same bookmark and mining again.
Or there might be ways to discern them but CCP does not know them, as I have seen banned people who I chatted all the time with while they were mining, while in the same system and sitting next to each other.
As I posted many times, it's very cool you finally started hitting botters, RMTers and cheaters but there ARE false positives (which you dismissed) and they have no way whatsoever to prove they were not cheating.
Edit: and no the "we are not the customer service department" is not a valid excuse. You HAVE to have functional backend to sustain your bannings else we'll just get an even worse customer service than we have now, where petitions can sit there for weeks. You're wrong. We can move on.
wow...nice answer. sounds to me like some1 with a legit concern...in fact it sounds like the same concern i have. you'll forgive the /b/ if we don't just passively accept that ccp will take care of it... because ccp doesn't. your customer service/customer care is the issue here. i'm a customer with a bunch of accounts. none of which have been affected by this in any way. nor do i want them to be affected. Vaerah Vahrokha's question is a legit one. your refusal to properly answer, and answer with such ( i hate to say such tone but u basicly told them to "shut up" and me as well) shows just that deficiency |
Riall
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:58:00 -
[195] - Quote
Quote:Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt I may have to make this my sig... Wait... -á"Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5906
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 20:59:00 -
[196] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah.
Sreegs for empress! Sreegs is very much a dude. I know. But if he's empress, he'll get a crown and a fancy dress, and that's got to count for somethingGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
492
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:01:00 -
[197] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:You're wrong. We can move on.
This looks like a bit of an elusive reply.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:re:Vaerah Vahrokha
exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction. When this happens is the time I'd recommend getting mad about it. In all seriousness I can't defend a position that hasn't occurred.
But it had occurred, I even mailed about it at the address you provided (which I suppose by now is in some endless queue?). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:04:00 -
[198] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:I would say it's more likely they are deliberately mis-representing the facts for reasons of their own. Not saying what those reasons might be but if I were you I would investigate these people for possible RMT infractions. Plus the ones who have responses like "Now I am not defending RMT but if you take action against it it fooks up the game for everyone". But you've already thought of that haven't you? And with just one additional level of tinfoil hattery, your 4 month old alt posting is in reality just trying to deflect away from yourself unto other people.
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
709
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:05:00 -
[199] - Quote
Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs!
I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. |
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:06:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.
Ok, it seems like we're thinking of two different scenarios here. What I thought you were originally suggesting was the following:
A loans money to B. B is a RMTer, and gets caught. A suffers a punishment for being associated with RMTing (whether it's a ban, additional ISK removed, etc).
However, that quoted statement sounds like you actually meant this:
A loans money to B. B is a RMTer, and gets caught. A does not get any kind of reimbursement, but suffers no CCP-imposed penalties beyond the fact that the person who borrowed their money no longer has it (just like if the person took the loan and refused to pay it back).
If you would confirm that you're only talking about the second scenario, then I agree that there is no issue with the policy.
Quote:We will deal with situations as they arise and each one will be unique. That's the nature of this business.
And this is why many people are not happy with your GM actions: the fact that there's too much personal judgement and little confidence that rulings are consistent. Just look at this thread even, with people expressing (reasonable) concerns about favoritism and different punishments for different people. You know why that is? Because you haven't considered all of these hypotheticals and published clear procedures for how these cases will be handled. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
708
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:07:00 -
[201] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote: wow...nice answer. sounds to me like some1 with a legit concern...in fact it sounds like the same concern i have. you'll forgive the /b/ if we don't just passively accept that ccp will take care of it... because ccp doesn't. your customer service/customer care is the issue here. i'm a customer with a bunch of accounts. none of which have been affected by this in any way. nor do i want them to be affected. Vaerah Vahrokha's question is a legit one. your refusal to properly answer, and answer with such ( i hate to say such tone but u basicly told them to "shut up" and me as well) shows just that deficiency
I've actually given the only answer I can give multiple times. I'm not dealing in hypotheticals. If something happens we'll look at it. That's the only answer and insisting that it's not an answer doesn't make it so. I'm sorry if this doesn't please you but that's all there is to say.
I don't find limiting myself to answering the same question asked 7 different ways three times is really all that great a sin. |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
708
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:09:00 -
[202] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:You're wrong. We can move on. This looks like a bit of an elusive reply. CCP Sreegs wrote:Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:re:Vaerah Vahrokha
exactly my point. i'm sorry ccp, i'm all for catching those cheaters but you need to be more clear. this game means a great deal to some of us...many of us...because of the time we spend. we can't effectively play the game if we don't know the rules. effectively you'd shut a lot of useful people out of the game with your knee jerk reaction. When this happens is the time I'd recommend getting mad about it. In all seriousness I can't defend a position that hasn't occurred. But it had occurred, I even mailed about it at the address you provided (which I suppose by now is in some endless queue?). Edit: I tried contacting *anyone* at CCP who had any tiny bit of power about customer care, all I got is endless circles of people pointing and escalating at each other. Nobody to frankly speak at their presence and be heard.
That's where you're wrong. I'm not getting into specifics as I said. I won't discuss hypotheticals as I said. As I said there have been no instances where people were flagged erroneously who weren't involved in something else. If you choose to believe otherwise then that's your choice but if it has happened we haven't seen it yet and until we do I'm not discussing what could potentially maybe happen. That's it.
If something happened with you related to a GM matter then I can't help you there because I didn't do anything. Unless you were banned today or Friday then "wasn't me" unless it was for botting and there's absolutely nothing I can say about it. |
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Jim Luc
Rule of Five
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:10:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved.
Ha, yes I realized after sending that you can't control all the spam of course LOL - just that there might be some IP addresses that you could release as being on a public watchlist from known phishers. Idunno - just throwing ideas out there |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
493
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:10:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I don't find limiting myself to answering the same question asked 7 different ways three times is really all that great a sin.
Therefore I will trust about a reply on the specific case I emailed to you. And no, since I am posting here you did not ban me Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
708
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:12:00 -
[205] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you. Ok, it seems like we're thinking of two different scenarios here. What I thought you were originally suggesting was the following: A loans money to B. B is a RMTer, and gets caught. A suffers a punishment for being associated with RMTing (whether it's a ban, additional ISK removed, etc). However, that quoted statement sounds like you actually meant this: A loans money to B. B is a RMTer, and gets caught. A does not get any kind of reimbursement, but suffers no CCP-imposed penalties beyond the fact that the person who borrowed their money no longer has it (just like if the person took the loan and refused to pay it back). If you would confirm that you're only talking about the second scenario, then I agree that there is no issue with the policy. Quote:We will deal with situations as they arise and each one will be unique. That's the nature of this business. And this is why many people are not happy with your GM actions: the fact that there's too much personal judgement and little confidence that rulings are consistent. Just look at this thread even, with people expressing (reasonable) concerns about favoritism and different punishments for different people. You know why that is? Because you haven't considered all of these hypotheticals and published clear procedures for how these cases will be handled.
I'm not a GM. "Many people" may be unhappy about something but I'm doing my job and that's to catch badguys. If you have beef with something the GMs did then I can't help you there as I don't work in the GM department. I'm confident in my work 100% and that's all I can attest to.
|
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Plyn
Random Jedi Industries KRYSIS.
49
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:15:00 -
[206] - Quote
Sreegs and his team have made me a happy man!
Keep up the good work Come2Nullsec |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1429
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:16:00 -
[207] - Quote
A few points, from my point of view, about some of the comments made above.
1: Odd ball cases will be looked into on an individual basis. If CCP Sreegs gets too specific on how the details are aquired and analyzed... or gives an official "forumula" on how all cases fo this nature are going to be handled... all he has done is given ammunition to those who will gladly find a way to abuse the procedure.
2: If you loan ISK it is your responsibility to be very sure the person receiving the loan in trustworthy. Any loans of ISK are in no way protected. If you loan to the wrong person (as in RL) you may very well lose your investment.
3: I think you can be fairly certain that purchases made off of the market are secure. However, if you have a habit transacting with someone caught RMTing you will likely be investigated closely.
4: In the supposed case of two people being banned, then one got his ban lifted right away while the other one has been waiting 3 weeks... you need to consider these people may very well not have been up front with you. I think it is quite likely that one of them might have deserved the benefit of the doubt, but the other one needed a complete (and time consuming) investigation. 3 weeks seems to not be an uncommon amount of time if the investigation is complex. You might also keep in mind that a time consuming investigation (when warranted) is undertaken in the interest of trying to be fair instead of simply "ban and forget".
5: You can "what if" this situation to death, but really it is a pointless excercise... and not giving to many particulars is important in a situation like this. If you know exactly what the boundries are, you can figure out where the loop holes are. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
133
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:17:00 -
[208] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved.
You may want to look into the company my wife works at if you're looking for a solution to this. Interested to know more? ;) |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:18:00 -
[209] - Quote
First, I'd still appreciate confirmation that your mention of "loans" was only about the fact that loans to RMTers will not be reimbursed, not additional punishments being made on the premise that anyone who loans money to an RMTer is guilty of being involved in RMTing themselves.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I'm not a GM. "Many people" may be unhappy about something but I'm doing my job and that's to catch badguys. If you have beef with something the GMs did then I can't help you there as I don't work in the GM department. I'm confident in my work 100% and that's all I can attest to.
Not you personally, you as in CCP in general. Way too many people feel that punishments/reimbursements/etc are not handled consistently, whether out of favoritism or simply different GMs doing things different ways. And it really doesn't help when you say that considering hypothetical situations is a "waste of time". Without considering those scenarios and making public rulings on how they will be handled, how are we supposed to have any confidence that the outcome will be fair and consistent?
Whether or not it's strictly necessary, it's throwing fuel on the fire of alliance drama, especially combined with the fact that your refusal to comment on specific cases allows speculation to run out of control. |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
713
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:19:00 -
[210] - Quote
corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. You may want to look into the company my wife works at if you're looking for a solution to this. Interested to know more? ;)
Send an email to the security email address. We've looked into a lot of things but ultimately none of what we've seen in pretty much any case fits our unique environment and situation with this particular spam. |
|
|
Aamrr
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:21:00 -
[211] - Quote
Well done. While we obviously don't have any way of validating your zero-false-positives claim, it's nice to see that you're at least looking into the issue. A measure of transparency would be nice, but I'll concede there are legitimate reasons you can't give that to us.
Keep us updated. |
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
507
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:22:00 -
[212] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Florestan Bronstein wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: 2) I've already explained this. In most cases thus far people knew. I already told you to vet the people you lend isk to. The last time I checked making loans wasn't something we insure. If you lose your loan you can't tell a GM to give it back. Your other risk is that they're crooked. I don't see why this is an issue to be frank with you.
because you as the one who gives the loan are looking like an isk seller on ethe other party comes under scrutiny which means you do not only stand to lose your money but also your eve account When this happens we'll talk. I recognize that you do now want to discuss mere hypotheticals - but I'll ignore it.
When you investigate RMT you can only see one side of the transfers - what assets changed hands in EVE. The other side of the transaction - real world assets changing hands - which defines RMT is something you usually have no direct knowledge of.
So you are not handing out bans based on any sort of "proof" but have to resort to very fuzzy "evidence" - does the EVE side of the transaction look as if real life assets might have changed hands alongside or not... You have to infer this real-life side of the transaction by arguing along the lines of "well, those two players do not seem to have any previous interactions that make the in-game transaction look plausible/justified" - but given the prevalence of 3rd party communication methods like forums, jabber/IRC, voicecomms, ... an in-game paper trail justifying the transaction often does not exist even for legit enterprises.
There is literally no way to proof innocence in that case - how am I to demonstrate that I did not receive money for the ISK I sent to some random guy? fax you my bank statements? screenshot some jabber conversation that I might just as well have faked after the fact?
The knowledge that an investment of years might hinge upon a situation in which you cannot demonstrate your innocence makes people nervous.
Maybe the problem is that we automatically assume that you try to catch all sorts of RMT behavior - and that we know or at least assume that there is a lot of small scale/casual RMT going on which cannot be reliably identified from your POV.
(case in point: a few years ago I petitioned a guy who auctioned off one of his characters for RL money within the alliance; the character transfer was to take place via the CCP sanctioned means, the real life money was to change hands beforehand; afaik nothing happened as result of my petition - and how could the investigating GM ever have known for sure that RL money changed hands alongside the in-game transfer?).
I guess that as long as you only stick to big/commercial RMT operations with many customers and a relatively tight net of suppliers most cases should be relatively clear cut. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
89
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:24:00 -
[213] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. CCP has already done something so you can tell if an e-mail is from an authorized sender: eveonline.com descriptive text "v=spf1 mx ip4:87.237.32.0/24 ip4:87.237.38.0/24 ip4:87.237.37.32/28 ip4:87.237.39.0/24 mx:mail.global.frontbridge.com mx:ymir.ccpgames.com include:spf.frontbridge.com -all"
This is a "Sender Preferred From" record and includes all the addresses authorized to send e-mail as eveonline.com under any circumstances. The -all at the end means you reject any mail that doesn't match.
Not all mail providers use it, but it's there. |
Jita Alt666
987
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:24:00 -
[214] - Quote
Saying it again. Great stuff Sreegs, Stillman and all your little minions.
To all the folks crying about false positives in here - wrong department, wrong format. My ISP, mobile, landline, PPV TV are all from the same provider, guess how useful it is talking to the mobile department about PPV? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
133
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:25:00 -
[215] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. You may want to look into the company my wife works at if you're looking for a solution to this. Interested to know more? ;) Send an email to the security email address. We've looked into a lot of things but ultimately none of what we've seen in pretty much any case fits our unique environment and situation with this particular spam.
Will do :toot:
e: Check your email! |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:25:00 -
[216] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:First, I'd still appreciate confirmation that your mention of "loans" was only about the fact that loans to RMTers will not be reimbursed, not additional punishments being made on the premise that anyone who loans money to an RMTer is guilty of being involved in RMTing themselves. CCP Sreegs wrote:I'm not a GM. "Many people" may be unhappy about something but I'm doing my job and that's to catch badguys. If you have beef with something the GMs did then I can't help you there as I don't work in the GM department. I'm confident in my work 100% and that's all I can attest to.
Not you personally, you as in CCP in general. Way too many people feel that punishments/reimbursements/etc are not handled consistently, whether out of favoritism or simply different GMs doing things different ways. And it really doesn't help when you say that considering hypothetical situations is a "waste of time". Without considering those scenarios and making public rulings on how they will be handled, how are we supposed to have any confidence that the outcome will be fair and consistent? Whether or not it's strictly necessary, it's throwing fuel on the fire of alliance drama, especially combined with the fact that your refusal to comment on specific cases allows speculation to run out of control.
I won't confirm that. We don't regulate loans. We won't have people funding RMT operations claiming they were making loans and wasting our time. The scenario you are painting hasn't occurred but I'm not going to personally underwrite individual's spaceloan businesses on the off chance something that hasn't occurred may. We can see what goes on and that's all there is to it. If something goes south we'll look at it. Hasn't happened. It's like developing a contingency for earth's gravity failing. Sure it COULD happen but I'm not paying someone to think about it.
I'm not in the GM department so I cannot attest to what they may or may not have done. Have a problem with the wave from today or last Friday? Email me. Otherwise I'm off the hook.
I don't make people speculate it's an activity you choose to engage in. I do my work regardless of whether people choose to invent alternate realities or not otherwise nothing would ever get done. I'm not in the habit of spending oodles of time defending our work against every conceivable nightmare scenario painted on the internet. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
493
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:25:00 -
[217] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:A few points, from my point of view, about some of the comments made above.
1: Odd ball cases will be looked into on an individual basis. If CCP Sreegs gets too specific on how the details are aquired and analyzed... or gives an official "forumula" on how all cases fo this nature are going to be handled... all he has done is given ammunition to those who will gladly find a way to abuse the procedure.
No they are NOT LOOKED into an individual basis. All you get is a default copy and paste GM reply. If you escalate it you will ALWAYS get replied the first GM was right within 1 hour (I mean, they did not even have the time to double check it).
This is a classic case of "left hand does not know what the right hand does".
CCP Sreegs will become a force of nature, an "evil guys bane" producing zillions of bans. Yet nobody on the GM section is *as* capable nor *as quick* to handle the load.
I mean they hired a CHAMPION of security, the best ever. I really worship CCP Sreegs about how effective he is. But then the other employees have to follow suit else it just ends in a bloody mess.
Ranger 1 wrote:
2: If you loan ISK it is your responsibility to be very sure the person receiving the loan in trustworthy. Any loans of ISK are in no way protected. If you loan to the wrong person (as in RL) you may very well lose your investment.
How do I know this person is trustworthy? In EvE none the less? It could be (and in my case was) a very trusted MD forum investors known for years by everyone as upstanding and clean.
I did all my duties yet he ended up being somewhat related to a RMTer.
Teach me how to avoid this, I am all ears. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
133
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:30:00 -
[218] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Teach me how to avoid this, I am all ears.
Just stick to the technical analysis you're so fond of. |
Tyke Orlieveit
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:30:00 -
[219] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. You may want to look into the company my wife works at if you're looking for a solution to this. Interested to know more? ;) Send an email to the security email address. We've looked into a lot of things but ultimately none of what we've seen in pretty much any case fits our unique environment and situation with this particular spam.
Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature?
I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:31:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved.
One doesn't need to own the internet for that. For example the CCP bulk mta often used for surveys and stuff is run under the cocos islands domain ccp.cc which - while it does indeed belong to CCP - is never ever used anywhere else that customers see, so it probably looks fishy to most users.
Then again, if you read your mails with full headers, you are probably already sufficiently paranoid. |
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:32:00 -
[221] - Quote
Tyke Orlieveit wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:corestwo wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. You may want to look into the company my wife works at if you're looking for a solution to this. Interested to know more? ;) Send an email to the security email address. We've looked into a lot of things but ultimately none of what we've seen in pretty much any case fits our unique environment and situation with this particular spam. Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature? I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though.
What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:33:00 -
[222] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. One doesn't need to own the internet for that. For example the CCP bulk mta often used for surveys and stuff is run under the cocos islands domain ccp.cc which - while it does indeed belong to CCP - is never ever used anywhere else that customers see, so it probably looks fishy to most users. Then again, if you read your mails with full headers, you are probably already sufficiently paranoid.
The bulk mails use both SPF and DomainKeys (however it's been rebranded) so you can certainly verify the authenticity of those. Unfortunately not every mail we send is sent through this system. |
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Captain Thunk
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:34:00 -
[223] - Quote
CCP Sreegs
Will Corporation CEOs be allowed to request a list of their members who've had Transaction reversals through RMT with the amount?
I'm pretty sure some corps would like to kick them.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
133
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:34:00 -
[224] - Quote
Tyke Orlieveit wrote:Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature?
I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though. The problem with a solution like this is that your average internet goer doesn't even know to check the sig much less how. Any such solution to this kind of problem is passive in the ideal case - as far as the recipient is concerned, the email should always be trustable.
Now, that's a very high ideal standard, but you get the idea - I shouldn't have to do anything to be sure my mail is from who it claims it's from.
CCP Sreegs wrote:Mioelnir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. One doesn't need to own the internet for that. For example the CCP bulk mta often used for surveys and stuff is run under the cocos islands domain ccp.cc which - while it does indeed belong to CCP - is never ever used anywhere else that customers see, so it probably looks fishy to most users. Then again, if you read your mails with full headers, you are probably already sufficiently paranoid. The bulk mails use both SPF and DomainKeys (however it's been rebranded) so you can certainly verify the authenticity of those. Unfortunately not every mail we send is sent through this system.
Welp. I am now, perhaps, not quite so sure how helpful what I sent you will be. Worth a shot anyway. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:35:00 -
[225] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:How do I know this person is trustworthy? In EvE none the less? It could be (and in my case was) a very trusted MD forum investors known for years by everyone as upstanding and clean.
I did all my duties yet he ended up being somewhat related to a RMTer.
Teach me how to avoid this, I am all ears. you could audi... oh wait only an idiot would trust your audits my mistake |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:36:00 -
[226] - Quote
Captain Thunk wrote:CCP Sreegs
Will Corporation CEOs be allowed to request a list of their members who've had Transaction reversals through RMT with the amount?
I'm pretty sure some corps would like to kick them.
Not at this time. You're welcome to comment in the scarlet letter thread linked in the blog though as this would probably qualify. |
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Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
89
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:36:00 -
[227] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tyke Orlieveit wrote: Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature?
I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though.
What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world. Debian signs their security announcements.
They are completely accessible to people not using PGP/GPG and are authenticated for people who are using them. |
Myz Toyou
Bite Me inc Exhale.
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:36:00 -
[228] - Quote
I would like to see those faces when previous super pilots now suddenly have to downgrade to Drakes given by kind Alliance members |
Jim Luc
Rule of Five
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:38:00 -
[229] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
....LONG QUOTE
What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world.
Personally I take a look at any outgoing links, and manually type them in as long as they have the correct subdomain in the url. Mostly though, and this is an unfortunate side-effect, I generally don't really bother with any links from an email.
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:39:00 -
[230] - Quote
To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier.
You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspx
Those may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is.
I hope that helps. |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:40:00 -
[231] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm not in the habit of spending oodles of time defending our work against every conceivable nightmare scenario painted on the internet.
This is hardly "every nightmare scenario" we're talking about. I was able to think up these scenarios in just a few minutes while writing the post, so it doesn't exactly inspire confidence to hear that you (or anyone else at CCP) haven't considered them yet. Instead, it gives the impression that you are too focused on punishing the guilty and haven't spent enough time preparing for how to handle the consequences of those punishments.
This kind of vague "we'll deal with it as it happens" might have been fine when you were just handing out individual account bans on clearly guilty ISK sellers, but now you're talking about "ending alliances" and having a much bigger impact on the sandbox. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:40:00 -
[232] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tyke Orlieveit wrote: Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature?
I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though.
What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world. Debian signs their security announcements. They are completely accessible to people not using PGP/GPG and are authenticated for people who are using them.
Yeah I know some people sign their emails, what I'm saying is given the work that would go into implementing such a system how many people would actually gain benefit from it.
PGP signing adoption rates are terrible or were at least the last time I checked. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
714
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:41:00 -
[233] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm not in the habit of spending oodles of time defending our work against every conceivable nightmare scenario painted on the internet. This is hardly "every nightmare scenario" we're talking about. I was able to think up these scenarios in just a few minutes while writing the post, so it doesn't exactly inspire confidence to hear that you (or anyone else at CCP) haven't considered them yet. Instead, it gives the impression that you are too focused on punishing the guilty and haven't spent enough time preparing for how to handle the consequences of those punishments. This kind of vague "we'll deal with it as it happens" might have been fine when you were just handing out individual account bans on clearly guilty ISK sellers, but now you're talking about "ending alliances" and having a much bigger impact on the sandbox.
Then I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. :) |
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DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:41:00 -
[234] - Quote
Regarding the loans.
Secured loans are an easy fix. Add a contract section for Loans. Sadly CCP tried this but as it wasnt combat related it was utter shite.... Much like the auction system of contracts are.
There's a lot of key things ccp has not fixed that are things that isk sellers are no doubt using. Adding a Secure Loan (Where the game holds all ITEMS in Escrow until the loan is repaid according to terms) would mean that all of my loans are 100% secure. On top of that it would remove any risk that someone will use this method for transferring goods from char to char.
Getting rid of the trade window (Hello private contracts, derrrr) is a no-brainer; but again, CCP has left this system in place for so long now that you have to question why it's there.
Character trades should have the same SecureTrading system that SecureGTC uses.. Character to CHARACTER and not requring users to supply account names (How dumb is that??). The isk should be held in escrow for say 24 hours after the deal is done (this would KILL character scamming and also add a lot of hassle those who manage to steal account details, with the plus side of hiding the account name making account details more secure).. For anyone who wants to know my account name might be something like mephysto_luvsme_even_tho_he_says_no .....
What also happens when (like recently) my pal who was on military deployment had his account hacked. I am sure that it was a breach of his email due to the fact that they logg'd into more than one of his accounts, but his isk would have been moved off for RMT, does this mean he's now under a perm ban and will never be able to return?... |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
90
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:45:00 -
[235] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tyke Orlieveit wrote: Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature?
I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though.
What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world. Debian signs their security announcements. They are completely accessible to people not using PGP/GPG and are authenticated for people who are using them. Yeah I know some people sign their emails, what I'm saying is given the work that would go into implementing such a system how many people would actually gain benefit from it. PGP signing adoption rates are terrible or were at least the last time I checked. True, I'd be surprised if the Debian security mailing list had more than a few thousand subscribers, and that may include everyone who uses GPG who isn't on FreeBSD. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
60
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:46:00 -
[236] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:Adding a Secure Loan (Where the game holds all ITEMS in Escrow until the loan is repaid according to terms) would mean that all of my loans are 100% secure.
And also 100% pointless, since if I can allow you to hold on to items worth what you're loaning me then I can just sell those items on the market myself (other than rigged ships, I suppose) and get the money.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
493
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:47:00 -
[237] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Teach me how to avoid this, I am all ears. Just stick to the technical analysis you're so fond of.
Another elusive reply to a concrete RMT affected case (Cosmoray).
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tyke Orlieveit
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:47:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tyke Orlieveit wrote: Stupid question: Simply signing the email content with a Publicly available PGP/GPG key is out of the window I guess? The recipient isn't affected by this, and the people with the capability or desire can confirm the signature?
I guess formatting issues might be a hurdle, I've not really experimented with anything but plain-text email being signed though.
What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world. Debian signs their security announcements. They are completely accessible to people not using PGP/GPG and are authenticated for people who are using them. Yeah I know some people sign their emails, what I'm saying is given the work that would go into implementing such a system how many people would actually gain benefit from it. PGP signing adoption rates are terrible or were at least the last time I checked.
Aye, even with GPG as a free alternative, it's not exactly something a basic end-user can easily configure and get going I suppose.
Shy of having something in the actual Character management section as a list of emails sent to the email address as a secondary verification, but again would be a possible pain to implement for a limited benefit :( |
orphenshadow
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
57
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:49:00 -
[239] - Quote
Sounds sexy..
One thing I'm curious about.. It's kind of a hypothetical scenario but...
How does one figure out what isk was generated with a bot vs actual work..
For instance. If a player spent a lot of time actually ratting and doing stuff. But decided to run a bot for a few hours while he/she goes pvp on another toon..
How would CCP know that x isk was from bot, and y isk was legit?
Not that this scenario is even realistic. I'm pretty sure those with access to bots would never have the desire to rat :P |
Shandir
Ferocious Felines
105
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:49:00 -
[240] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site.
Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK. |
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
60
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:50:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Then I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. :)
Yeah, I get the point, you're the CCP employee and I'm not, and I can't force you to publish the information I want to see.
However, you're going to see impressive new levels of outrage if you start "ending" alliances for RMTing without clearly defined procedures for how to do it and how to handle the impact on players who were not involved in RMTing themselves. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
493
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:50:00 -
[242] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:How do I know this person is trustworthy? In EvE none the less? It could be (and in my case was) a very trusted MD forum investors known for years by everyone as upstanding and clean.
I did all my duties yet he ended up being somewhat related to a RMTer.
Teach me how to avoid this, I am all ears. you could audi... oh wait only an idiot would trust your audits my mistake
Only an idiot could think he can read a second order transaction off a third party into an API key. Keep trying. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:50:00 -
[243] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:DeODokktor wrote:Adding a Secure Loan (Where the game holds all ITEMS in Escrow until the loan is repaid according to terms) would mean that all of my loans are 100% secure. And also 100% pointless, since if I can allow you to hold on to items worth what you're loaning me then I can just sell those items on the market myself (other than rigged ships, I suppose) and get the money.
Items sold on the market are done so at a loss. Also, Blueprints, UltraRare Items (currently being removed by CCP cause they are confused), Limited Items, and large bulks of items are not ideal things to sell. For some users who only deal with basic market items then I guess selling is the best option, some of us go well in excess of the limits of the ibis. |
orphenshadow
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
57
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:51:00 -
[244] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:DeODokktor wrote:Adding a Secure Loan (Where the game holds all ITEMS in Escrow until the loan is repaid according to terms) would mean that all of my loans are 100% secure. And also 100% pointless, since if I can allow you to hold on to items worth what you're loaning me then I can just sell those items on the market myself (other than rigged ships, I suppose) and get the money.
A secure loan feature would be cooll
Something where you actually have to develop a credit rating with small loans.. and the loans are backed by your personal wallet..
Default on a loan.. = neg balance.
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:51:00 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps.
Just a quick note, this is not correct: ccp has a sanctioned way you may trade a GTC securely to another player for isk (without plex) that can be accessed here: https://secure.eveonline.com/ETC |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
718
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:53:00 -
[246] - Quote
orphenshadow wrote:Sounds sexy..
One thing I'm curious about.. It's kind of a hypothetical scenario but...
How does one figure out what isk was generated with a bot vs actual work..
For instance. If a player spent a lot of time actually ratting and doing stuff. But decided to run a bot for a few hours while he/she goes pvp on another toon..
How would CCP know that x isk was from bot, and y isk was legit?
Not that this scenario is even realistic. I'm pretty sure those with access to bots would never have the desire to rat :P
We don't differentiate. Don't bot and you won't ever have to care. |
|
Days Mahyisti
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:54:00 -
[247] - Quote
Sreegs, how would I go about doing the Bot report thing? Would I right click on the persons name, or..? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
719
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:54:00 -
[248] - Quote
Shandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site. Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK.
That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v
If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them. |
|
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 21:59:00 -
[249] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Shandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site. Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK. That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them.
Nice, Another dev in charge of something who doesnt know of the mechanisms that the game has in play to support "Legal RMT". Lets hope he didnt ban every player from feb/march who traded GTC for ISK via the forums ;P... |
Victor Twenty
Odyssey Space Exploration
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:04:00 -
[250] - Quote
One small step for CCP, one giant leap for all EVE players.
Keep up the good work CCP.
Vic20 |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1429
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:06:00 -
[251] - Quote
Quote:How do I know this person is trustworthy? In EvE none the less? It could be (and in my case was) a very trusted MD forum investors known for years by everyone as upstanding and clean.
I did all my duties yet he ended up being somewhat related to a RMTer.
Teach me how to avoid this, I am all ears.
I personally would not loan ISK (or cash for that matter) to anyone unless I personally knew them. I don't tend to go by reputation, as I have known players "reputed" to be very above board that ended up confessing that they purchased ISK outside of approved mechanics and never mentioned it to anyone until caught.
If I, who am well know to be very outspoken against RMT activities (and a generally all around nice guy ), asked you to loan me ISK common sense would dictate that you would not do so.
You don't know me, you only (at best) know OF me... and really have no idea what I do when nobody is watching.
However, if one of your buddies (that you know well and trust) asked for a loan I would say go for it. Unless, of course, you know he is one of those "buddies" that doesn't mind cheating and wouldn't take seriously anything that might happen to you in a game as a result.
Does it make it harder to gift some poor noob you'd like to help out? Yeah, it does.
But who do you blame for that... CCP? I really don't think so.
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:06:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:CRAP I REPLIED TOOO SOOOOOON
Think you just found your forum sig sreegs :P
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
719
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:10:00 -
[253] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Shandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site. Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK. That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them. Nice, Another dev in charge of something who doesnt know of the mechanisms that the game has in play to support "Legal RMT". Lets hope he didnt ban every player from feb/march who traded GTC for ISK via the forums ;P...
To be fair you can't do anything with ETCs in game. All of the trading happens outside of the game on the website. |
|
Jita Alt666
987
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:15:00 -
[254] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:DeODokktor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Shandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site. Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK. That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them. Nice, Another dev in charge of something who doesnt know of the mechanisms that the game has in play to support "Legal RMT". Lets hope he didnt ban every player from feb/march who traded GTC for ISK via the forums ;P... To be fair you can't do anything with ETCs in game. All of the trading happens outside of the game on the website.
Which is completely outside of Sreegs scope.
|
Cyclar
Rustbucket Industries
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:21:00 -
[255] - Quote
Great job Sreegs.
To all of you who worry that people might get wrongfully caught up in this: Don't worry. Im sure the methods and data mining technologies used for this is far more sophisticated than you can imagine.
I have complete confidence that this will not result in many false positives - if it over time results in one or two, im sure it will be sorted out.
Again, absolutely great job Sreegs!
|
Catho Sharn
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:26:00 -
[256] - Quote
You know what we really need? A desktop-sized version of the Joe poster, that's what!
ps - Kudos to the security team.
|
orphenshadow
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
57
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:32:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:orphenshadow wrote:Sounds sexy..
One thing I'm curious about.. It's kind of a hypothetical scenario but...
How does one figure out what isk was generated with a bot vs actual work..
For instance. If a player spent a lot of time actually ratting and doing stuff. But decided to run a bot for a few hours while he/she goes pvp on another toon..
How would CCP know that x isk was from bot, and y isk was legit?
Not that this scenario is even realistic. I'm pretty sure those with access to bots would never have the desire to rat :P We don't differentiate. Don't bot and you won't ever have to care.
So. You steal money that was legally earned. Gotcha.
|
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:34:00 -
[258] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What percentage of people do you suppose would actually use that? It's certainly feasible but adoption rates are abysmal out in the world. Debian signs their security announcements. They are completely accessible to people not using PGP/GPG and are authenticated for people who are using them. Yeah I know some people sign their emails, what I'm saying is given the work that would go into implementing such a system how many people would actually gain benefit from it. PGP signing adoption rates are terrible or were at least the last time I checked. True, I'd be surprised if the Debian security mailing list had more than a few thousand subscribers, and that may include everyone who uses GPG who isn't on FreeBSD. Also true (and a +like for FreeBSD).
Sadly, business-wise it probably isn't enough benefit to warrant any attention. Even though the marketing department would probably not have to script openssl into muttrc.
|
Iniquita
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:34:00 -
[259] - Quote
Are you simply negging individuals or are corp wallets getting hit by this as well? |
Potamus Jenkins
The Lucky Bible Company
64
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:38:00 -
[260] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:CCP Guard wrote:Buying and selling ISK is bad m-¦kay. And CCP Sreegs is here to tell you what Team Security is doing about it. Read the blog here and let us know if you have feedback or questions for us. I have a question CCP Guard "Neither RMT nor bot-related activity have any place in New Eden any longer" odd choice of phrasing on the dev blog, implication being CCP condoned botting till recently.... Also are CCP Games going to take actions against companys producing botting programs? activision-blizzard did a while ago against wow glider so might be worth CCPs legal department looking at the case files, judgements etc and see how/if they can be applied against bot producing companys selling their botting software commercialy
they stated in a blog or post somewhere that i believe during incarna and before they were pretty much asleep at the wheel as far as fighting bots. |
|
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
508
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:39:00 -
[261] - Quote
Jita Alt666 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To be fair you can't do anything with ETCs in game. All of the trading happens outside of the game on the website.
Which is completely outside of Sreegs scope. not really
the problem is that ever since CCP started sending newbies "PLEX are a great way to get ISK, buy some now!" emails, RMT sites have put the direct sale of ISK on the backburner and are instead emphasizing the sale of PLEX in their advertisements - because now everybody knows that buying PLEX to get some ISK is legit....
Back in the day the division was easy - GTCs are legit and everything else is bad RMT. There was no way a RMT site could have gotten their fingers on working GTCs without CCP seeing their cut.
Now CCP sells PLEX which is good. And RMT sites sell PLEX which is bad.
Every time CCP advertises PLEX as legal RMT, "bad" RMT sites profit because they sell the very same product as CCP (which was not possible with GTCs) and the "... but only if you buy it from eveonline.com" gets swept under the rug.
Anyone wanting to combat RMT has to deal with this issue sooner or later - and while Sreegs cannot solve it on his own (guess bizdev are happy that they can sell 2 PLEX for more $$ than 1 GTC and won't let go off that easily) he should at least be very aware of the problem.
If he himself has lost track of legal vs illegal RMT, how is he supposed to prevent Joe Rookie from stumbling into the same trap? Oh but he isn't supposed to prevent that? his job only involves technical detection means and infrequent appeals to the playerbase to please change their behavior? he doesn't care about anything outside that narrow field of vision?
well, you only solve a problem on the scale of RMT in EVE by taking a coordinated & holistic approach across departments. Not by saying "oh but this is the job of game design", "and this is due to business development", "and that's the work of GMs", ... If that is the case then get game design, Business Development and GMs on one table and solve the problem together.
CCP Sreegs will always end up as the spokesperson and player contact for any sort of bad behavior, no matter whether he thinks it falls into his responsibility or not.
edit: directionless post lacks direction, I'm too tired to write concisely but I hope the gist of it is clear |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
725
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:40:00 -
[262] - Quote
Iniquita wrote:Are you simply negging individuals or are corp wallets getting hit by this as well?
We're reversing RMT transactions wherever they ended up. |
|
Allataria
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:44:00 -
[263] - Quote
Screegs,
Does ISBoxer count as a botting program to get banned? Someone was saying that that particular program was allowed by EVE but I can't see how any third party program that runs the game for you would be allowed. Please confirm? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
494
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:46:00 -
[264] - Quote
How long till Chribba and Grendell get both banned for having contracted RMTed supercapitals with their 3rd party services?
They transacted so many it's statistically impossible not one of them came from RMT yet they have the same tools I have (that is ZERO) to make sure who you deal with is not tied to RMT. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:47:00 -
[265] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:Jita Alt666 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To be fair you can't do anything with ETCs in game. All of the trading happens outside of the game on the website.
Which is completely outside of Sreegs scope. not really the problem is that ever since CCP started sending newbies "PLEX are a great way to get ISK, buy some now!" emails, RMT sites have put the direct sale of ISK on the backburner and are instead emphasizing the sale of PLEX in their advertisements - because now everybody knows that buying PLEX to get some ISK is legit.... Back in the day the division was easy - GTCs are legit and everything else is bad RMT. There was no way a RMT site could have gotten their fingers on working GTCs without CCP seeing their cut. Now CCP sells PLEX which is good. And RMT sites sell PLEX which is bad. Every time CCP advertises PLEX as legal RMT, "bad" RMT sites profit because they sell the very same product as CCP (which was not possible with GTCs) and the "... but only if you buy it from eveonline.com" gets swept under the rug. Anyone wanting to combat RMT has to deal with this issue sooner or later - and while Sreegs cannot solve it on his own (guess bizdev are happy that they can sell 2 PLEX for more $$ than 1 GTC and won't let go off that easily) he should at least be very aware of the problem. If he himself has lost track of legal vs illegal RMT, how is he supposed to prevent Joe Rookie from stumbling into the same trap? Oh but he isn't supposed to prevent that? his job only involves technical detection means and infrequent appeals to the playerbase to please change their behavior? he doesn't care about anything outside that narrow field of vision? well, you only solve a problem on the scale of RMT in EVE by taking a coordinated & holistic approach across departments. Not by saying "oh but this is the job of game design", "and this is due to business development", "and that's the work of GMs", ... If that is the case then get game design, Business Development and GMs on one table and solve the problem together. CCP Sreegs will always end up as the spokesperson and player contact for any sort of bad behavior, no matter whether he thinks it falls into his responsibility or not. edit: directionless post lacks direction, I'm too tired to write concisely but I hope the gist of it is clear
Just to make sure we're clear unless the post comes from me in this thread or another blue poster it is conjecture and should be treated as such. I really don't need players answering questions about things they don't know anything about, least of all what my job responsibilities are. |
|
Amanda Humphries
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:48:00 -
[266] - Quote
First of all, a big thumbs up to the CCP security team. This has been a long time coming and I'm sure this will have huge impacts on the quality of the game.
Secondly, I'm not sure if this has been looked into, but perhaps there should be a feature implemented where you have to approve of someone giving you isk before it goes into your wallet. This will prevent the tactic of sending RMT'd isk to your enemies and reduce the workload on the security team.
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:49:00 -
[267] - Quote
Allataria wrote:Screegs,
Does ISBoxer count as a botting program to get banned? Someone was saying that that particular program was allowed by EVE but I can't see how any third party program that runs the game for you would be allowed. Please confirm?
I won't say it's ok but people have said certain GMs have. I'm not banning for it today and given the way the subject has been communicated we'll send out an announcement before we do. |
|
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:51:00 -
[268] - Quote
Ugh this forum is literally the worst (or the best, depending on how you see it)-- press post, no posting happens.
Anyway, tl;dp: Given that RMTers will lie about why they want ISK, and perspective loans are usually evaluated based on the loanee's ability to repay the loan (their wealth, repayment track record, etc), how the hell are we supposed to magically know who is and who isn't an RMTer when we go to loan people ISK?
Serious question. I'm part of an alliance of 5k plus players (you may have heard of them). We have a whole sub-forum dedicated to player contracts (largely loans). I have a pile of spacebux of my own and loan some of that out to people periodically based on whether or not I think that person can and will pay me back. How is this supposed to continue to be a thing if you can find yourself permabanned not for botting or RMTing but merely for loaning isk to ONE CHARACTER of someone who does RMT (which could involve any of the accounts that person has on the books, including characters that may or may not be in your alliance at all)? |
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:52:00 -
[269] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:How long till Chribba and Grendell get both banned for having contracted RMTed supercapitals with their 3rd party services?
They transacted so many it's statistically impossible not one of them came from RMT yet they have the same tools I have (that is ZERO) to make sure who you deal with is not tied to RMT.
I guess they can petition when it happens just like everyone else. (it hasn't happened) |
|
|
CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:53:00 -
[270] - Quote
Amanda Humphries wrote:First of all, a big thumbs up to the CCP security team. This has been a long time coming and I'm sure this will have huge impacts on the quality of the game.
Secondly, I'm not sure if this has been looked into, but perhaps there should be a feature implemented where you have to approve of someone giving you isk before it goes into your wallet. This will prevent the tactic of sending RMT'd isk to your enemies and reduce the workload on the security team.
It doesn't change anything from our perspective. You'd in a worst case scenario be out the isk you received. |
|
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:54:00 -
[271] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Ugh this forum is literally the worst (or the best, depending on how you see it)-- press post, no posting happens.
Anyway, tl;dp: Given that RMTers will lie about why they want ISK, and perspective loans are usually evaluated based on the loanee's ability to repay the loan (their wealth, repayment track record, etc), how the hell are we supposed to magically know who is and who isn't an RMTer when we go to loan people ISK?
Serious question. I'm part of an alliance of 5k plus players (you may have heard of it). We have a whole sub-forum dedicated to player contracts (largely loans). I have a pile of spacebux of my own and loan some of that out to people periodically based on whether or not I think that person can and will pay me back. How is this supposed to continue to be a thing if you can find yourself permabanned not for botting or RMTing but merely for loaning isk to ONE CHARACTER of someone who does RMT (which could involve any of the accounts that person has on the books, including characters that may or may not be in your alliance at all)?
My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be. |
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:56:00 -
[272] - Quote
You can't seriously expect people to KNOW whether or not someone is involved in RMT in a game full of anonymous sociopaths.
Just cyan.
e: For clarification, is it loaning to anyone involved in RMT that will get you f##ked or just ISK sellers? I imagine there are exponentially fewer sellers than buyers. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 22:59:00 -
[273] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:You can't seriously expect people to KNOW whether or not someone is involved in RMT in a game full of anonymous sociopaths.
Just cyan.
I don't disagree. We also don't support loan systems. This is why if I'm correct you have a subforum as you stated for loans and the punishment for defaulting on said loan is player justice not an in-game action from CCP. We didn't design a loan system. Maybe it's something we should do, maybe not, the point is that yourself and others are making a big to-do about
A) Something that we haven't had to do anything about yet because nobody's been snagged wrongly to date B) Something that is a player-run mechanic.
I can't provide validation around something we didn't create. |
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Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
91
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:00:00 -
[274] - Quote
This means less cheaters, more plex in the market, reduced plex isk value, and a better game for those who play to pay.
Good job CCP! |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:01:00 -
[275] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:You can't seriously expect people to KNOW whether or not someone is involved in RMT in a game full of anonymous sociopaths.
Just cyan.
e: For clarification, is it loaning to anyone involved in RMT that will get you f##ked or just ISK sellers? I imagine there are exponentially fewer sellers than buyers.
Your risk as it stands today would be that you'd be supplying a seller who would then sell what you loaned them. Buyers simply have the isk removed and only the isk that was given them by the seller.
:edit: either way it seems you're out money because you made a bad loan? |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:01:00 -
[276] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be.
:edit: and always has been
Sending ISK to somebody and (hopefully) have it back + interests after 30 days IS inside game mechanics.
Else why can we send ISK to somebody else?
With your reasoning ANY ISK exchange can be with a RMTer and subject to ban.
And you guess what?
They get ban, no ability to post. No ability to petition but use a craptastic ancient general contact form that is used by thousands guys sending spam or asking for general EvE info.
After WEEKS of being daily stolen subscription money a GM replies them that their logs show nothing and closes the petition. They can reopen a new petition and escalate it and get a "the former GM was right, now GTFO" reply. Be happy, now they will have purple letter, unsellable account and be shunned by everybody and no single way to ever be heard again.
Sure this is not your concern, but it's us who have to bear with this bullsht even in tangential cases. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:04:00 -
[277] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be.
:edit: and always has been
Sending ISK to somebody and (hopefully) have it back + interests after 30 days IS inside game mechanics. Else why can we send ISK to somebody else? With your reasoning ANY ISK exchange can be with a RMTer and subject to ban. And you guess what? They get ban, no ability to post. No ability to petition but use a craptastic ancient general contact form that is used by thousands guys sending spam or asking for general EvE info. After WEEKS of being daily stolen subscription money a GM replies them that their logs show nothing and closes the petition. They can reopen a new petition and escalate it and get a "the former GM was right, now GTFO" reply. Be happy, now they will have purple letter, unsellable account and be shunned by everybody and no single way to ever be heard again. Sure this is not your concern, but it's us who have to bear with this bullsht even in tangential cases.
Giving isk to someone is in the game mechanics yes. Getting it back with interest based on some predetermined condition is not. That is what a loan is. A deposit box is not a loan system. We didn't build a loan system and nothing you're lamenting has occurred based on anything my team has done. Nor do I even see it as conceivable at this point but don't let that stop you from making 100 more posts on the subject in this thread. :) |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:07:00 -
[278] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Giving isk to someone is in the game mechanics yes. Getting it back with interest based on some predetermined condition is not. That is what a loan is. A deposit box is not a loan system. We didn't build a loan system and nothing you're lamenting has occurred based on anything my team has done. Nor do I even see it as conceivable at this point but don't let that stop you from making 100 more posts on the subject in this thread. :)
When I will be banned just because I did what people on the Market Discussion forum do since years (EvE finance) or because I did what Chribba does (holding ships and collateral for third parties) or just because I got paid with RMT money for a BPO I sold (notice, no loan here), then at least I'll be able to wait for the unban and then link these posts as a "hey I was right" reminder.
Meager consolation, eh? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:09:00 -
[279] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Giving isk to someone is in the game mechanics yes. Getting it back with interest based on some predetermined condition is not. That is what a loan is. A deposit box is not a loan system. We didn't build a loan system and nothing you're lamenting has occurred based on anything my team has done. Nor do I even see it as conceivable at this point but don't let that stop you from making 100 more posts on the subject in this thread. :)
When I will be banned just because I did what people on the Market Discussion forum do since years (EvE finance) or because I did what Chribba does (holding ships and collateral for third parties) or just because I got paid with RMT money for a BPO I sold (notice, no loan here), then at least I'll be able to wait for the unban and then link these posts as a "hey I was right" reminder. Meager consolation, eh?
If it will make you feel better if that happens I'll either say you were right or you'll have been caught doing something bad. |
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CCP Loktofeit
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:10:00 -
[280] - Quote
InVictus Kell wrote:From the dev post:
" Buy PLEX, don't be a space butt "
nice, reads like a good 'ol fashion political slogan or old war bond ad from WWII.
http://community.eveonline.com/bitmaps/newsletters/vol032/plexNewEden.jpg
"...do Eve News 24; it's a very accurate and informative website." - Mara Tessidar |
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Just Alter
Bikini Bottom Surfer Talocan United
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:11:00 -
[281] - Quote
Great job Sreegs!
I'm amused by your resilience in dealing with these whiners...
Dont cheat= you'll be alright.
Afraid about loans/reimbursement/something else= stop doing till it will be safe again; maybe you could do it till now just because of bots,rmters :) |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:15:00 -
[282] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be.
:edit: and always has been
The game doesnt have mechanics in place for loans, hence the need for us to go about it outside the mechanics. We have the omlett now, give us the eggs.
Of course, it's not your area, it's not the area of anyone else either, it falls into that "make a suggestion and if it is good for combat we'll take it to an internal board and think about it" group.
Your not the one to push for this change, but you are the one who will have to deal with the fact that trading/sharing/loaning does take place in eve because there are missing mechanisms. If your all about detecting bots then I would go with ya in saying that my argument is moot. If your going to focus on RMT then it's not moot.
I think a few people are just looking for you to say that your not going to screw them over because they have helped out (or been helped out) indirectly by someone who has,does, or will take part in RMT.
I for one was once banned because a RMT'er was giving out free stuff in amarr, Opening trade windows and putting stuff in them and clicking Okay. You see a 300m item in a trade window with a green check and you are inclinded to accept it, a GM banned me (and a lot of other people) and gave me a warning that I should never for the rest of my eve life accept anything for less than what it's worth. To this day I can say that I think he was an Idiot when it comes to how he viewed that (my ban was undone, but going by his view if I purchase something on market for 10% of it's value I should be banned). Devs have often taken their own ideas and ran (leaped) into something without themselves knowing all of the mechanics in play. Sure, you cant outline every situation, but knowing that corps or alliances could be destroyed by Botters/RMT'ers in your group is going to be really offputting. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:15:00 -
[283] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Great job Sreegs!
I'm amused by your resilience in dealing with these whiners...
Dont cheat= you'll be alright.
Afraid about loans/reimbursement/something else= stop doing till it will be safe again; maybe you could do it till now just because of bots,rmters :)
Quite sure Goonswarm are going to be able to stop reimbursing ships for 5000 players with the snap of a finger. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Smodab Ongalot
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
87
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:18:00 -
[284] - Quote
First I want to say, excellent work. Eve is a sandbox and should be run by players. I find the removal of botters and RMT as part of the bigger step on the path away from NPC control.
But, I did have one small concern.
I was wondering, Senior Sreegs, if perhaps you should amend the section of your blog:
Quote:The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP
to
Quote:The ONLY legal sellers of PLEX are CCP and their affiliates
It seems it would be prudent to make it clear that there are other legal resellers of PLEX (ShatteredCrystal, for example), perhaps even provide a link to a list of authorized resellers.
There is alot of nerd-fear going around about getting "collateral banned" for accidentally dealing with an RMTer. It be a shame for legitimate businesses to suffer because of the demise of the bastard ones.
Edit: *SIGH* This is what happens when you post without completely finishing the thread.... I just saw you addressed my concern like 4 pages back. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
90
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:22:00 -
[285] - Quote
Excellent blog. Thanks for keeping us up to date on the RMT and so on. I would like to say Screegs that I admire your patience in this thread, and taking the time to answer as much as you have. Good luck with the work you guys are doing there in the EVE security team. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:22:00 -
[286] - Quote
gamecard (whatSC sells ) is not plex btw What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Minabunny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:24:00 -
[287] - Quote
So what are you going to the corps/alliances that rent space in low/null sec to botters? |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:26:00 -
[288] - Quote
Thank you for the work the security team is completing.
Sorta funny how people are worried about loaning money to people who are loosing it to RMT... It is not like loosing you money to some scam artist, is it? Except this scam artist is Breaking the EULA. Fine he may be paying you back once in a while but he is doing evil things with you money... and he is just building up trust with you before he simply "Cashes out"
People need to avoid enabling RMT players and be less complacent allowing botters and RMTers to operate. I have heard of the story of A friend of a friend of mine cashed out making $$ on line, or is botting with out being caught. I wish these people would report these activities or at least tell me who these people are so I can at least report them!!
Funny Portion: For those who are concerned about Loosing your money to RMTer activities, loan your money to me. I will carefully loose you money in a strategic way that not be taken by CCP. My money loosing ideas include: Ratting in a Titan in Hostile Space, Self Destructing Super Cap for the insurance pay out, and Placing Plex in can in front of Jita where I will shoot at people who try and take it!
Loose your money to me! I Guarantee it will be SECURE from being lost because of RMT actions... while it lasts....
This is going to make to help make Mining a viable profession again.
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
General Abrams
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:29:00 -
[289] - Quote
Awesome Work! I certainly hope the Bans include Mission botters!
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
133
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:33:00 -
[290] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Just Alter wrote:Great job Sreegs!
I'm amused by your resilience in dealing with these whiners...
Dont cheat= you'll be alright.
Afraid about loans/reimbursement/something else= stop doing till it will be safe again; maybe you could do it till now just because of bots,rmters :) Quite sure Goonswarm are going to be able to stop reimbursing ships for 5000 players with the snap of a finger.
Stereotypes
You would actually be surprised how little of our income, comparatively speaking, comes from ratting in general. |
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Cpt Arareb
Ideal Machine Many Reckless Corps
14
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Posted - 2012.04.03 23:36:00 -
[291] - Quote
im really looking forward to banning of all bots. prices will rise!! .. Sure they will but then again is fine for me, I really like the idea being extremely hard for one individual to buy or make a battleship, thats the way it should be (lets face it is a Battleship!)and one person buy/make a carrier should be extremely rare, the way I see things a carrier should be a corp/alliance job and after owning it, those most respected most valuable and more trusted (and that have the required skills ofc) would be the designated pilot for that carrier, same with the titans and supers only alliances would be capable (with cooperation and hard work of they members) of making and owning one such beast.
no one that loses they bots will be in any diferent advantage then before if everyone around dont use bots.
with time the economy will stabilize (with higher prices) and what you will see is that before everyone individual and his mother owned a capital, and now they fly around in cruisers or frigates and when taking a battleship for a spin they will go with some more brain and think more about what they flying and how expensive it was to buy/ make that battleship, and no one in they right mind will hotdrop small gangs with carriers because that would be insanely stupid since so many ppl mined they ass off during weeks/months to build that carrier.
even will be better for those poor folks that get in game and mine looking for some profit, they will have it! They will actually have fun going into lowsec and null mine those more rare ores to make a good profit of that ( and no I dont mine dont have memory of ever tryed it before), that will make a revamp on low/null/wh mining profession, and thats only fair.
tl:dr : with no bots prices will get higher, but, dont mean is bad thing. |
Vance Armistice
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:37:00 -
[292] - Quote
Excellent work!!!!
I just don't know if Iceland is big enough to contain this much win!!!! Between the freshly crowned Super-Ninja-Space-PoPo CCP Sreegs and our Lord and Savior CCP Diagoras I am concerned...
OMG!!!! What would happen if they mated?!?! Is the Earth ready for such an advanced being?
I am ready to find out...
Popcorn.... |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:41:00 -
[293] - Quote
General Abrams wrote:Awesome Work! I certainly hope the Bans include Mission botters!
They do |
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DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:44:00 -
[294] - Quote
Well, I have about 50bn isk in non-secured loans out. It's just going by his indications it seems that when I take payment for them (this month and next) that I will be expecting another ban, followed by a few days to a couple of weeks of me having this argument with GM's. I dont think my loans are out to RMT'ers or BOT'ers but how do I know that projects I am funding will not fall foul of some script he runs.
Would I give isk up to someone who is just going to go do botting, no, durrrr. But to know that yet another someone inside ccp is setting script triggers based on movement of things that may be valid, well, it just makes me sad. He cant help that there's no mechanism in place - he could help, he could complain to the team that deals with that area of design. GM's complain about workload, we give solutions that would reduce workload. How a DEV can say that helping to raise a solution or guideline for GM's or Design Teams to go over is not something in his area shows how much each section of ccp is now sharded. If he cared about his time he would point the problem to the design teams, If he gave two hoots about the GM's time then he would not just say that "Loans are not supported ... It is not my area .. I will ban you .. Speak to someone else".
Not saying he's a bad guy, Not saying that the game isnt in dire need of BOT detection, Not saying that RMT is a good thing. I am saying that if he is going to be over the script routines that dictates when we get a ban (daily) then he needs to also have some responsibilty in pointing the erronious detections towards a team that can make sure they dont happen and put systems in place to make it so it no longer causes problems for such detections.
Now, if he wants to say that when I have 50bn isk transferred back to me (history shows a large sum going out previously) over the next few weeks that I have nothing to worry about then I can let the argument go. |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:45:00 -
[295] - Quote
Minabunny wrote:So what are you going to the corps/alliances that rent space in low/null sec to botters?
Simple answer: Ensure to they have vacancies for real people since botting tenants will be hard to come by?
Though Report players that you think are bots to is gives the sercuity team people to look at and examine.
Through Observing the behavior of a complex bot, a program may be able to detect the algoritems used to detect that same bot again.
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:45:00 -
[296] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:General Abrams wrote:Awesome Work! I certainly hope the Bans include Mission botters!
They do
market bots ? What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:45:00 -
[297] - Quote
I suppose if the loan market dries up-- not completely, but a large portion of it-- due to fear of bans, more people will need to turn to CCP-sanctioned RMTing to get money, right?
Personally I won't be loaning out ISK anymore. Making a few billion isn't worth jeopardizing six years of work. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:45:00 -
[298] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:Well, I have about 50bn isk in non-secured loans out. It's just going by his indications it seems that when I take payment for them (this month and next) that I will be expecting another ban, followed by a few days to a couple of weeks of me having this argument with GM's. I dont think my loans are out to RMT'ers or BOT'ers but how do I know that projects I am funding will not fall foul of some script he runs.
Would I give isk up to someone who is just going to go do botting, no, durrrr. But to know that yet another someone inside ccp is setting script triggers based on movement of things that may be valid, well, it just makes me sad. He cant help that there's no mechanism in place - he could help, he could complain to the team that deals with that area of design. GM's complain about workload, we give solutions that would reduce workload. How a DEV can say that helping to raise a solution or guideline for GM's or Design Teams to go over is not something in his area shows how much each section of ccp is now sharded. If he cared about his time he would point the problem to the design teams, If he gave two hoots about the GM's time then he would not just say that "Loans are not supported ... It is not my area .. I will ban you .. Speak to someone else".
Not saying he's a bad guy, Not saying that the game isnt in dire need of BOT detection, Not saying that RMT is a good thing. I am saying that if he is going to be over the script routines that dictates when we get a ban (daily) then he needs to also have some responsibilty in pointing the erronious detections towards a team that can make sure they dont happen and put systems in place to make it so it no longer causes problems for such detections.
Now, if he wants to say that when I have 50bn isk transferred back to me (history shows a large sum going out previously) over the next few weeks that I have nothing to worry about then I can let the argument go.
Nobody is getting script triggers today about anything other than bad activity. Stop panicking about things that aren't happening and spreading misinformation please thanks. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:47:00 -
[299] - Quote
Lt Pizi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:General Abrams wrote:Awesome Work! I certainly hope the Bans include Mission botters!
They do market bots ?
Yes them too |
|
Natasha Preston
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:48:00 -
[300] - Quote
Just Alter wrote:Great job Sreegs!
I'm amused by your resilience in dealing with these whiners...
Dont cheat= you'll be alright.
+1
Great work CCP and security guys, just hope you can keep this going. This is more important than anything else, because botters make the whole game meaningless, more so in a sandbox like EVE.
Death to all cheaters, make them suffer.
<3 CCP Sreegs |
|
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:48:00 -
[301] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:For those who are concerned about Loosing your money to RMTer activities, loan your money to me. I will carefully loose you money in a strategic way that not be taken by CCP. My money loosing ideas include: Ratting in a Titan in Hostile Space, Self Destructing Super Cap for the insurance pay out, and Placing Plex in can in front of Jita where I will shoot at people who try and take it!
Loose your money to me! I Guarantee it will be SECURE from being lost because of RMT actions... while it lasts....
May your intestines knot horribly overnight for getting that one in before me!! :P
But anyways...hells yeah! Finally some serious tough love on the botting/RMT front.
Eagerly awaiting Graphs!! and Pict0rz!! when you have them ready. And the economic point of view. and.... [/drool]
And to all the whiners/pedants... If you feel it necessary to dig trenches around your "position" already, you do realise all that happens is people getting curious about when you are going to be Tagged for Special Attention, do you? Gotta love the sudden Angst and dread emanating from some posts.
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:48:00 -
[302] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:I suppose if the loan market dries up-- not completely, but a large portion of it-- due to fear of bans, more people will need to turn to CCP-sanctioned RMTing to get money, right?
Personally I won't be loaning out ISK anymore. Making a few billion isn't worth jeopardizing six years of work.
People are paranoid enough ok |
|
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:50:00 -
[303] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:I suppose if the loan market dries up-- not completely, but a large portion of it-- due to fear of bans, more people will need to turn to CCP-sanctioned RMTing to get money, right?
Personally I won't be loaning out ISK anymore. Making a few billion isn't worth jeopardizing six years of work. People are paranoid enough ok
:tinfoil: |
Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:50:00 -
[304] - Quote
oh hell yeah!
bring on the dead bots!
too bad we cant call dibs on the salvage, lol!
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:51:00 -
[305] - Quote
Good job banning bots, though. It's just a pity this wasn't done before the whole bot-fueled supercap armsrace. |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
519
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:55:00 -
[306] - Quote
What about taking the isk that is on banned accounts or removed due to botting and using it to reimburse people who where scammed? I was promised a spot in Pandemic Legion if I paid a fee of 500M and now I barely have enough to replace my scythe and can't mine because of an afk cloacker which is a different issue but it basically keeps me from enjoying the game. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
91
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 23:58:00 -
[307] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Good job banning bots, though. It's just a pity this wasn't done before the whole bot-fueled supercap armsrace. I'm actually going to be a bit surprised if any nullsec alliances are seriously impacted by this, despite the rumors that have run rampant for years.
But if the rumors are *true* it might open up some nice opportunities. |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:00:00 -
[308] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:What about taking the isk that is on banned accounts or removed due to botting and using it to reimburse people who where scammed? I was promised a spot in Pandemic Legion if I paid a fee of 500M and now I barely have enough to replace my scythe and can't mine because of an afk cloacker which is a different issue but it basically keeps me from enjoying the game.
What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:00:00 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:You can't seriously expect people to KNOW whether or not someone is involved in RMT in a game full of anonymous sociopaths.
Just cyan. I don't disagree. We also don't support loan systems. This is why if I'm correct you have a subforum as you stated for loans and the punishment for defaulting on said loan is player justice not an in-game action from CCP. We didn't design a loan system. Maybe it's something we should do, maybe not, the point is that yourself and others are making a big to-do about A) Something that we haven't had to do anything about yet because nobody's been snagged wrongly to date B) Something that is a player-run mechanic. I can't provide validation around something we didn't create.
i just want to know about the loan thing.... that troubles me.
will bans be implemented for some1 who loans money to some1 who is a RMT or if the isk is just gone. isk gone i'm fine with, account actions of any kind....not so much. then the "knowing" part comes in.... you are putting the cart before the horse ... so to speak. you never answered my original question which was this exactly. again... i'm not looking to get around the rules but you never even made it clear. loans happen.... its part of any game, supported or not. eve is supposed to be a sand box. so now i can't make loans cause its not in the game structure? of course not. this is ridiculous. so again
-tldr version-
Can an account get banned for making a loan to an account involved in RMT, knowningly or not? the loaned iskies lost is a risk of playing the game... but are there other actions beyond that?
- /tldr-
answer those 2 questions and 90% of the crap u have been getting will go away. from what i can see ccp did well on this...except for the transparency part....not about how the individuals are caught (that would be plain stupid). but definitively the rules of what is allowed (hypothetical or not... the elusiveness seems to be because nobody knows exactly what is going on) as well as the punishments need to be known. that's just a huge DUH |
Cpt Arareb
Ideal Machine Many Reckless Corps
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:02:00 -
[310] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Lt Pizi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:General Abrams wrote:Awesome Work! I certainly hope the Bans include Mission botters!
They do market bots ? Yes them too
here goes Jita local
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:02:00 -
[311] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:What about taking the isk that is on banned accounts or removed due to botting and using it to reimburse people who where scammed? I was promised a spot in Pandemic Legion if I paid a fee of 500M and now I barely have enough to replace my scythe and can't mine because of an afk cloacker which is a different issue but it basically keeps me from enjoying the game.
ugh |
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Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:04:00 -
[312] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:What about taking the isk that is on banned accounts or removed due to botting and using it to reimburse people who where scammed? I was promised a spot in Pandemic Legion if I paid a fee of 500M and now I barely have enough to replace my scythe and can't mine because of an afk cloacker which is a different issue but it basically keeps me from enjoying the game.
best troll ever or... go back to wow idiot |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
739
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:06:00 -
[313] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:You can't seriously expect people to KNOW whether or not someone is involved in RMT in a game full of anonymous sociopaths.
Just cyan. I don't disagree. We also don't support loan systems. This is why if I'm correct you have a subforum as you stated for loans and the punishment for defaulting on said loan is player justice not an in-game action from CCP. We didn't design a loan system. Maybe it's something we should do, maybe not, the point is that yourself and others are making a big to-do about A) Something that we haven't had to do anything about yet because nobody's been snagged wrongly to date B) Something that is a player-run mechanic. I can't provide validation around something we didn't create. i just want to know about the loan thing.... that troubles me. will bans be implemented for some1 who loans money to some1 who is a RMT or if the isk is just gone. isk gone i'm fine with, account actions of any kind....not so much. then the "knowing" part comes in.... you are putting the cart before the horse ... so to speak. you never answered my original question which was this exactly. again... i'm not looking to get around the rules but you never even made it clear. loans happen.... its part of any game, supported or not. eve is supposed to be a sand box. so now i can't make loans cause its not in the game structure? of course not. this is ridiculous. so again -tldr version- Can an account get banned for making a loan to an account involved in RMT, knowningly or not? the loaned iskies lost is a risk of playing the game... but are there other actions beyond that? - /tldr- answer those 2 questions and 90% of the crap u have been getting will go away. from what i can see ccp did well on this...except for the transparency part....not about how the individuals are caught (that would be plain stupid). but definitively the rules of what is allowed (hypothetical or not... the elusiveness seems to be because nobody knows exactly what is going on) as well as the punishments need to be known. that's just a huge DUH
We do not nor will we ever secure a loan. From our perspective if you make a loan you may as well be giving it away regardless of whether the guy's an rmter or not.
If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.
In other words "loan" can mean a lot of things and I can't judge a case that hasn't happened as I've been saying. The case itself would be judged on its own merits and likely no two would be the same. You will NOT get a blanket answer from me on this question other than "We do not secure loans ever". |
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Sturmwolke
157
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:10:00 -
[314] - Quote
Can we expect quarterly updates on RMT & bots (ala QEN)? (mainly for visibility purposes). Whats your comment on isk laundering schemes? |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
739
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:13:00 -
[315] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:Can we expect quarterly updates on RMT & bots (ala QEN)? (mainly for visibility purposes). Whats your comment of isk laundering schemes?
You can expect regular reports. You've gotten two blogs out of me in a month plus fanfest. What we'll look to do in the least is have Stillman show results, graphs, numbers and statistics regularly and I'll probably moonwalk away until something changes. I'll work on schedules with him in the morning as I would like to commit to having things out regularly. |
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Recoil Happens
Debatable Results
38
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Posted - 2012.04.04 00:14:00 -
[316] - Quote
Yeaah, BAY BEE !!
Rip some new fecal spreading orifices for those lying, cheating, "I dunno know who my daddy is?!" perps.
This game will do perfectly well without them, never relent, never cut them slack, Death Sentences to all cheating accounts!!
I have not been more happy with you, CCP, since Unholy Rage. Just don't let this be a one off grandstand like that was and have business as usual a few hours later.
Make them understand, that you will take the mins from the super caps they reprocess to hide them from being confiscated.
Use the RICO act outline from the United States to crack down on organizations involved in criminal activity. Take the one piece of trit from all their rookie ships. Seize their slaverhounds. Drop them off in an asteroid belt and make them walk home then ban 'em!!
Go after your GTC resellers who also are doing RMT - get cyber sniffing bloodhounds to find any links between the GTC resellers with the RMT sites and go back in history as far as you like.
Institute safeguards to prevent those banned from re-birthing themselves as innocents. Do as other game companies have done by including machine specific ID points and put it into the EULA, so if cheaters want to re-birth themselves, they will have to just about replace their entire computer computer.
Bad seeds need to fall to the ground and rot.
N E V E R G I V E U P !! The people who are not trying to screw (think of a thin metal cylindrical item with threads on it which is used to hold together two pieces of would when screwed together) your company are behind you. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
496
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:18:00 -
[317] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.
First of all I apologize for having been so suspicious, the "customer service" made me jaded about EvE enough that I quit over it in the past.
Now on the question: what does "flagged" mean? Is it a ban? Or half ban? Or you go in some black list? Or wach list? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
cyndrogen
Occultum Scientia
37
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:20:00 -
[318] - Quote
I am 110% against BOTS and RMT farmers etc..... however I would REALLY like a serious answer to this question.
The reason BOTS exist is because a game mechanic exists where no human intelligence is required to complete the task. A BOT is capable of performing a game task much better then a human because this is actually a GAME DESIGN FLAW.
I hate to say it but botting exists because the activity of mining ore and ice is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated.
Several people have made good suggestions on how to improve the game and make it more fun while making it harder for botting to occur, yet here we are banning accounts.You would not need to pay a security team a ton of REAL money if you actually use that money to fix the game mechanics.
Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics? |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
201
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:21:00 -
[319] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: We do not nor will we ever secure a loan. From our perspective if you make a loan you may as well be giving it away regardless of whether the guy's an rmter or not.
If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.
In other words "loan" can mean a lot of things and I can't judge a case that hasn't happened as I've been saying. The case itself would be judged on its own merits and likely no two would be the same. You will NOT get a blanket answer from me on this question other than "We do not secure loans ever".
This already sounds a lot better than the "unwittingly loan isk to RMTer, get permabanned" thing everyone thought was going on.
I think I see what you meant now when you said "CCP doesn't secure your loans." People (ok, maybe I speak for myself here) aren't worried about losing the loaned isk, they're worried about "hey I loaned a guy isk, now all my accounts are perma'd." If you're accidentally flagged and you can explain the situation to a GM and get the ban reversed, that's not nearly as big of a deal. |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:22:00 -
[320] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Neither RMT nor bot-related activity have any place in New Eden any longer and the security team is willing to play chicken as long as it takes to get that message across.
I love the work you're doing on this and look forward to seeing the long term effects in the game.
Back in love with CCP again! |
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Potamus Jenkins
The Lucky Bible Company
64
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:23:00 -
[321] - Quote
loving this post
whiners:
"I COULD BE BANNED FOR RECEIVING RMT'D ISK"
CCP : "YOU WONT BE BANNED YOU MAY JUST LOSE THE RMT'D MONEY
WHINERS : "BUT ILL BE BANNED?!?!"
CCP : "YOU WONT GET BANNED JUST MONEY REMOVED
WHINERS : "ILL BE BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNED..." |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
742
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:27:00 -
[322] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.
First of all I apologize for having been so suspicious, the "customer service" made me jaded about EvE enough that I quit over it in the past. Now on the question: what does "flagged" mean? Is it a ban? Or half ban? Or you go in some black list? Or wach list?
That just means activity has occurred that we're going to perform some action on. That action would depend on the activity at the time. |
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Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:28:00 -
[323] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:I am 110% against BOTS and RMT farmers etc..... however I would REALLY like a serious answer to this question.
The reason BOTS exist is because a game mechanic exists where no human intelligence is required to complete the task. A BOT is capable of performing a game task much better then a human because this is actually a GAME DESIGN FLAW.
I hate to say it but botting exists because the activity of mining ore and ice is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated.
Several people have made good suggestions on how to improve the game and make it more fun while making it harder for botting to occur, yet here we are banning accounts.You would not need to pay a security team a ton of REAL money if you actually use that money to fix the game mechanics.
Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?
To quote Raph Koster's Laws of Online World Design (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml) : "No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world."
Pretty much all PvE can be automated, it's not necessarily entirely an issue with game mechanics. I know people who mine lots. |
Hamster Too
Golden Fowl Silent Requiem
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:29:00 -
[324] - Quote
Allataria wrote: All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture.
Stop whining. If none of the multitude of ways to make ISK does not appeal to you then leave it to people enjoying those activities and use PLEX and/or GTC to fund your PvP habit. Spend those 6 hours in RL job, convert the earned money to ISK using one of the official, legal ways and have fun blowing up the ships.
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
742
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:31:00 -
[325] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:I am 110% against BOTS and RMT farmers etc..... however I would REALLY like a serious answer to this question.
The reason BOTS exist is because a game mechanic exists where no human intelligence is required to complete the task. A BOT is capable of performing a game task much better then a human because this is actually a GAME DESIGN FLAW.
I hate to say it but botting exists because the activity of mining ore and ice is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated.
Several people have made good suggestions on how to improve the game and make it more fun while making it harder for botting to occur, yet here we are banning accounts.You would not need to pay a security team a ton of REAL money if you actually use that money to fix the game mechanics.
Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?
Yeah posting the same question that's already been answered in this thread isn't going to get you an answer you like better. I believe your assertion to be absolutely incorrect 100%.
By this standard, as I said earlier, every MMO ever was a boring noninteractive game and every one in the future will be as well.
I'm glad you got your message out though. Again. Stay Strong! |
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ISquishWorms
109
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:31:00 -
[326] - Quote
Been waiting a long time for this.
One of the most welcome threads ever great work CCP Sreegs you have my full support and I guess I have your love as I don't cheat (it ruins games and makes them pointless well in my eyes) even though I give you lot at CCP a hard time now and then. |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:31:00 -
[327] - Quote
[quote=CCP Sreegs
We do not nor will we ever secure a loan. From our perspective if you make a loan you may as well be giving it away regardless of whether the guy's an rmter or not
If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.
In other words "loan" can mean a lot of things and I can't judge a case that hasn't happened as I've been saying. The case itself would be judged on its own merits and likely no two would be the same. You will NOT get a blanket answer from me on this question other than "We do not secure loans ever".[/quote
as i said. i don't care about the isk. again; risk you take. anybody that expects loans secured or reimbursed is .... well like that goon earlier. belong playing something simpler...like farmville...that caters to their particular mindset.
the slight risk sounds innocuous and i understand your hesitance to commit to anything but (maybe not here) this needs to be further elaborated on. slight risk? so if my buddy who played in my alliance for years goes out and buys a couple bill from a RMT and gets caught. but not before i borrow isk from him...am i in trouble? i still owe a buddy almost a bill from...i dunno a month ago when an account needed a gtc. this stuff happens all the time
"i need a ship but i'm broke "here is isk go get a ship pay me back when you can [person you have known for a while]
ALL THE TIME
i do it when i have money and my friends do it when they do....help each out. that's what we do.
my point is that ( AGAIN!!!! ) ccp seems to have jumped the gun....gone off half cocked...prematurely....yeah anyways.. they didn't fully consider the ramifacations of their actions. even if its not something that i will get in trouble for, its something that i worry about. given ccp's track record of "our logs are useless and show about as much mormon ****" just makes me even more uneasy.
i need more than what has been given. i consider myself a citizen of new eden (without going all rp). a member of the community. i have been since 2003. i expect to know the rules of the society in which i chose to participate. i know the laws in my own country better than most lawyers...or try to... best way to stay out of trouble is to know what will get you into it. so please. you don't seem to admit that there is anything even wrong with how this is handled. that is almost as troubling.
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
742
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:32:00 -
[328] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: We do not nor will we ever secure a loan. From our perspective if you make a loan you may as well be giving it away regardless of whether the guy's an rmter or not.
If the guy's an RMTer you do run a slight risk of being flagged but it's a discussion we'd have to have when all the pieces came together.
In other words "loan" can mean a lot of things and I can't judge a case that hasn't happened as I've been saying. The case itself would be judged on its own merits and likely no two would be the same. You will NOT get a blanket answer from me on this question other than "We do not secure loans ever".
This already sounds a lot better than the "unwittingly loan isk to RMTer, get permabanned" thing everyone thought was going on. I think I see what you meant now when you said "CCP doesn't secure your loans." People (ok, maybe I speak for myself here) aren't worried about losing the loaned isk, they're worried about "hey I loaned a guy isk, now all my accounts are perma'd." If you're accidentally flagged and you can explain the situation to a GM and get the ban reversed, that's not nearly as big of a deal. As you said, any capital we hand over to loan-seekers comes with the risk of not getting it back.
The GMs would hand the query over to us to run at this point and we do the inspection. We just don't directly handle petitions. |
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Hans Tria
Dark Matter Inc
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:35:00 -
[329] - Quote
I have reported a lot of suspected RMT, but have always done so by petition (the EULA, etc section).
Is it better to report via the security email address?
Does the way it is reported affect the possibility of earning plex for your trouble? I have gone through quite a bit of work to trace rings and corps engaged in RMT by digging through contract history and "following-the-money." I am also quite sure that many of these petitions have resulted in busts as certain of these characters and corps. no longer seem to exist :). |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:36:00 -
[330] - Quote
CCP Sreegs do you watch the prices from RMTers ?
would be interresting if prices go up now What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
333
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:37:00 -
[331] - Quote
Sreegs, I've just read the whole thread.
Grats to you and your team.
OMG
I don't know how much patience you must have to answer these questions over and over and overandoverandover...
I appreciate what your doing (as do many others).
Thanks to you all!
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
746
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:40:00 -
[332] - Quote
I'm going to bed because it's almost 1am. I'll pick this up tomorrow and probably follow it for another day or so before I moonwalk off into the sunset. |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1432
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:52:00 -
[333] - Quote
What I'm getting from this is that CCP has little interest in preventing anyone from helping out a friend in need, but you do so at your own risk.
Speaking strictly from a players point of view, if you really aren't sure about your internet buddy, ask him point blank if he RMT's occasionally. If he actually is a good friend he'll probably admit it... and if you do it via chat you'd have a copy of the logs if he maintained that he did not.
Not that a chat log would necessarily end the matter, especially if you seem to make a habit out of loaning money to RMTers, but it's better than nothing.
Personally, if I give someone something it's usually a ship that they might need to earn ISK to get back on their feet... and I do mean give, I don't expect anything in return. Repayment can consist on passing that favor on when needed, and hopefully one day if I ever find myself in that situation Karma will look after me.
I'm not presuming to speak for anyone, just my personal point of view. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 00:56:00 -
[334] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I'm going to bed because it's almost 1am. I'll pick this up tomorrow and probably follow it for another day or so before I moonwalk off into the sunset.
i claim this emo quit |
Xantor Bludberry
31
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:04:00 -
[335] - Quote
Is there some whine from RMT-botting forums?? I need moar drama and sweet botters tears!!! And I am so f****ng happy!!!! |
Nemesis Factor
Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:20:00 -
[336] - Quote
I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.
I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.
Kudos to the security team, BTW. |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:29:00 -
[337] - Quote
Questions Out of left field
Will some of the tools etc you are using be available for DUST514 and WOD?
Is there a guide you can point to on how the community can help you fight the good fight - a Link where I can tell a whiner to be a solution vs a symptom of bots.
can such player designed things like Farfmpukin http://esb.multiplexgaming.com/index.php Empire strikes back: a campaign to fight botting in Null sec I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Natasha Preston
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:34:00 -
[338] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:I am 110% against BOTS and RMT farmers etc..... however I would REALLY like a serious answer to this question.
The reason BOTS exist is because a game mechanic exists where no human intelligence is required to complete the task. A BOT is capable of performing a game task much better then a human because this is actually a GAME DESIGN FLAW.
I hate to say it but botting exists because the activity of mining ore and ice is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated.
Several people have made good suggestions on how to improve the game and make it more fun while making it harder for botting to occur, yet here we are banning accounts.You would not need to pay a security team a ton of REAL money if you actually use that money to fix the game mechanics.
Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?
There are bots for every single aspect of the game, mission, trade, courier, etc. Besides, every single MMO out there has bots, so by your logic each one "is brainless, requiers no skills and can be automated".
Why do you bother playing computer games at all? |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:35:00 -
[339] - Quote
http://nosygamer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/ccps-war-on-bots-tinyminer-tears-march.html What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Della Monk
the boltzmann experience Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:42:00 -
[340] - Quote
Man I don't see what's so fussy about loans. You loan isk to some deadbeat, he doesn't pay you back, you're out isk. You loan isk to some rmter, he pays you back but it gets reversed, you're out the same amount of isk. Unless I missed where they said they'd be handing out bans. |
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GM Nythanos
Game Masters C C P Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:42:00 -
[341] - Quote
Hi guys, just wanted to give a quick clarification for PLEX/ETC questions from before:
ETCs can be purchased from the official resellers at https://secure.eveonline.com/ETC however it's important to note that this is buying ETC, not PLEX. The difference is important.
While a 60 day ETC can be converted to PLEX, you are not buying two 30 Day Pilot License Extensions from those websites buy a 60 day EVE Time Code. It may seem nitpicky since the ETC can be converted to PLEX, but converting the ETC to PLEX is one option, not the only one, and until that conversion is made you have a code for 60 days of game time, not 2 PLEX sitting in your Redeemable Items. If another website is claiming they sell PLEX directly in an official capacity the claim would be incorrect. Buying PLEX directly from another site is not allowed.
To put it another way, there's no such thing as an "Official PLEX Reseller", only Official ETC resellers.
The information given earlier was not for the ETC/PLEX system as a whole, but for the PLEX-from-sites concerns like:
ThatSourDiesel wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:The ONLY legal seller of PLEX is CCP. This was in the blog. Does this mean that other online retailers for PLEX, like Shattered Crystal and Battleclinic, are ILLEGAL sellers? I didn't think they were, but your post confuses me. Can anyone clarify this for me please? Thanks!!
A short answer to questions about what is/isn't ok for ETC/PLEX acquisition would be:
Buying ETC from official resellers - Ok Converting an ETC to 2 PLEX - Ok Selling an ETC through the secure method - Ok Buying PLEX through Account Management - Ok Buying and Selling PLEX in game via the Market and Contracts - Ok Buying PLEX from other Websites - Not Allowed GM Nythanos | Senior Game Master |
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Meita Way
My Hat is Made of LOVE
57
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 01:51:00 -
[342] - Quote
Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev. I can imagine the tech your using to do this (I'm a computer scientist like a couple of others that have posted in the thread). Awesome. |
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 02:11:00 -
[343] - Quote
GM Nythanos, can you comment on my post #325. i feel like i was sorta left hanging. not trying to be difficult but my issues remain. please clarify this for the community. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
506
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 02:22:00 -
[344] - Quote
I hate to be, THAT GUY, but what happen to me being able to use my little security code thing i got at LAST YEARS FANFEST.
Are you guys that ADHD? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
246
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 02:37:00 -
[345] - Quote
o7 to Sreegs.
He might well be my favourite dev right now.
(Along with Tallest, of course: Because he's just win--ref.: Reversing the proposed fighter signature-resolution nerf in the SCap-rebalancing thread.)
CCP Sreegs wrote: [...] We fully intend to twist the knife on these kinds of operations and will utilize whichever mechanism we believe will cause them the most pain. [...]
^^ Yes...YES!!!! ^^ This signature is intentionally left blank.
|
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
765
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 02:50:00 -
[346] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegs!!!!! Great job! Also great job to those helping you. CCP Stillman's the main man on this project.
CCP Stillman! Why you no post so I may hit 'like' button?!
|
ISquishWorms
109
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 03:06:00 -
[347] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegs!!!!! Great job! Also great job to those helping you. CCP Stillman's the main man on this project. CCP Stillman! Why you no post so I may hit 'like' button?!
This ^^ |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
818
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 03:13:00 -
[348] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:I hate to be, THAT GUY, but what happen to me being able to use my little security code thing i got at LAST YEARS FANFEST.
Are you guys that ADHD?
ETA is July 2012. It was mentioned in CCP Sreeg's last thread (regarding the Scarlet Letters).
It probably will happen at the same time as the Launcher becomes the "login" point for the game. At least, that's my guess. |
Krunzer Shakiel
Ridgy Didge Holdings Pty Ltd
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 03:51:00 -
[349] - Quote
Does anyone know what is a reasonable time for a GM/CCP or someone to respond to a report BOT action issued in game. Its been 2 weeks since I've reported a blindly obvious Market BOT and nothing has happened? I realise there are bigger fish to fry and ( and are being fried) but trading is my main activity.
I've found since the initial BAN a few weeks ago the market bots are increasingly interfering with the market again...
My assumption is the Report Bot button is more of a feel good item, and/or requires multiple hits on the same toon to get any action (...personally I don't actually expect more from this feature, and god knows how many times it get used or misued a day)
One reason I'm pushing with this market bot to go in this thread is that it has an obvious signature which CCP don't seem to have on their autodetect rules (yet?) - I would hope Sreegs or someone wish to pursue this.
|
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
99
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 03:52:00 -
[350] - Quote
Not sure if you can update blogs, but I recommend if you can, to add the following.
1. Link info to how to legitimately trade characters
2. Link plexes
RMT is an issue in both games, some RMT players might not know how to legitimately do so. The wikis are pretty good for them so link em up! |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1174
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 04:10:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, would you be able to take the time to link to the Making ISK guide in the Evelopedia, from your devblogs regarding botting and RMT? I figure giving people a pointer to legitimate means to make ISK withing the rules of our virtual world might help reduce the number of pointless arguments about, "ratting and mining are boring, I need better ways to make ISK."
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1175
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 04:48:00 -
[352] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull.
Interestingly enough, there is a Making ISK guide dealing with a variety of means to make ISK, INCLUDING NINJA SALVAGING. If you want a way to make ISK that includes all the fun of PVP, you really can't go past gankers officer-fit Tengus and CNRs in mission hubs.
As for botters "being essential" GÇö bollocks! Bots are directly responsible for making mining and speculation low value activities.
|
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:02:00 -
[353] - Quote
I think this is a step in the right direction. Could we get the number of players included in the number of accounts also? It would be interesting to see how many alt accounts we are talking about. I think it would be great to have some kind of ticker in officer quarters with the numbers updated on the big screen too! Killmails of the accounts would be nice as well if your taking more suggestions Keep attacking them! |
Sister Megarea
Irregular Warfare Mean Coalition
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:15:00 -
[354] - Quote
So can you post any of the rage/tear/h4te mail you've gotten from botter/RMTers (with identifying details removed, of course) ?
Tears mail is particularly amusing :) |
gring
Organized Chaos Inc Spectral Knights
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:22:00 -
[355] - Quote
so my account got hacked last year around about june... just wondering if the reversals will have any effect on that since i lost about 10 billion isk in ships/modules and also my character looked like it was trying to be sold. REALLY hope it does :s |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:26:00 -
[356] - Quote
Z2ZzzzZ2Z wrote:GM Nythanos, can you comment on my post #325. i feel like i was sorta left hanging. not trying to be difficult but my issues remain. please clarify this for the community.
You mention CCP going "off half cocked", but you seem to have done the same in your question.
CCP Sreegs pretty much answered your concerns here. Deal with it. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
515
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:42:00 -
[357] - Quote
CCP Stillman / Sreggs
Hi and thank you for your continued work. Much appreciated.
How about a check box I can tick in my recruitment section that automagically denies anyone who's been temp banned.
This way, you don't need to put a scarlet letter on anyone, you just kinda disallow them from joining my corp in the first place.
This way, they're not chased with torches and pitchforks across new eden and I still get to keep that element out of my corp.
It's not rocket surgery. |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 05:52:00 -
[358] - Quote
orphenshadow wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:orphenshadow wrote:Sounds sexy..
One thing I'm curious about.. It's kind of a hypothetical scenario but...
How does one figure out what isk was generated with a bot vs actual work..
For instance. If a player spent a lot of time actually ratting and doing stuff. But decided to run a bot for a few hours while he/she goes pvp on another toon..
How would CCP know that x isk was from bot, and y isk was legit?
Not that this scenario is even realistic. I'm pretty sure those with access to bots would never have the desire to rat :P We don't differentiate. Don't bot and you won't ever have to care. So. You steal money that was legally earned. Gotcha.
Errr, nope. You cheat they take your ISK. You don't cheat, they don't.
But nice attempt to try and make CCP's attempts to end cheating sound somehow "dodgy".
PAN |
Leeonwung
House Of Serenity. Unprovoked Aggression
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 06:04:00 -
[359] - Quote
Great work CCP.
I really hope you will be able to eventually get rid of all the bots and botters and find a way to keep them out of the game. Maybe one of those "Captcha's" at login. Love the game and the concept and cant imagine a better way to pass time whilst playing an MMO game.
Eve The Greatest Game Ever
|
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 06:15:00 -
[360] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Yeah posting the same question that's already been answered in this thread isn't going to get you an answer you like better. I believe your assertion to be absolutely incorrect 100%.
By this standard, as I said earlier, every MMO ever was a boring noninteractive game and every one in the future will be as well.
I'm glad you got your message out though. Again. Stay Strong! ..... Wow. I almost cried a little tear there. It's like the old days when devs didn't take **** from anyone and gave as good as they got. This keeps up I might actually begin to like CCP again.
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Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 06:23:00 -
[361] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
My job isn't to secure the loans your corporation is making outside of the game mechanics. That is your risk and always will be.
:edit: and always has been
Sending ISK to somebody and (hopefully) have it back + interests after 30 days IS inside game mechanics. Else why can we send ISK to somebody else? With your reasoning ANY ISK exchange can be with a RMTer and subject to ban. And you guess what? They get ban, no ability to post. No ability to petition but use a craptastic ancient general contact form that is used by thousands guys sending spam or asking for general EvE info. After WEEKS of being daily stolen subscription money a GM replies them that their logs show nothing and closes the petition. They can reopen a new petition and escalate it and get a "the former GM was right, now GTFO" reply. Be happy, now they will have purple letter, unsellable account and be shunned by everybody and no single way to ever be heard again. Sure this is not your concern, but it's us who have to bear with this bullsht even in tangential cases. Edit: sorry for peeing on your best thread, if I knew of anybody in CCP who'd CARE to listen to concerns I'd harass them. But alas, there's only a rubber wall to keep us muppet- ehm customers shut.
Seriously - would you go cry your tears somewhere else. Loaning ISK is a game mechanic *created* by the players so CCP has no responsibility to guarantee your loans.
Would you have any sympathy for me *if* I rented space in 0.0 and was scammed? Would you have any sympathy if I was ransomed in low sec, paid the ransom and got killed anyway? Would you have any sympathy for me if I paid GS to join them only to find it was a scam?
No.
So why should we have any sympathy for you if you load someone ISK and you end up losing it? You seem to be asking for a stone cold guarantee for your "business".
Well, guess what? This is EVE. You want guarantees, go play another game.
PAN
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GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 06:58:00 -
[362] - Quote
hrrm good stuff against the bots.
my good friend Joe once again has his name tarnished by anti bot posters. How ever on his behalf,
Please CEASE AND DESIST your defamation of Joe via the use of those particular banners. he in no way RMT's / BOTS, endorses or uses those services outside of the cccp provided services.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3232
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:02:00 -
[363] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Stillman! Why you no post so I may hit 'like' button?!
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3232
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:03:00 -
[364] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Sreegs, would you be able to take the time to link to the Making ISK guide in the Evelopedia, from your devblogs regarding botting and RMT? I figure giving people a pointer to legitimate means to make ISK withing the rules of our virtual world might help reduce the number of pointless arguments about, "ratting and mining are boring, I need better ways to make ISK."
+1 very sensible suggestion
Prevention always beats cure Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
497
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:04:00 -
[365] - Quote
Nemesis Factor wrote:I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.
I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.
Kudos to the security team, BTW.
You too would get nervous if suddenly what you are playing EvE for since years, suddenly became a suspicious activity to be watched closely.
Read my signature:
Collateral holding / 3rd party service => have to swap tens of billions worth of stuff all the time. Being a trusted collateral holder / 3rd party service in EvE is extremely hard as it involves total trust. Suddenly the hardest achievement in EvE - takes years to become trusted to hold Titans on behalf of 3rd parties - becomes a potential banhammer trigger.
Investing => again, something done for years. Putting tens of billions in the hands of other players *in EvE none the less* with the hope to see them back after 1+ months. Risky enough? No, now the likes of you consider it "something shady".
Charity => again, something done for enough time to be showcased at Fanfest 2011. Yet, how do I choose how to NOT get a donation off a RMTer and be royally screwed over?
Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
498
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:11:00 -
[366] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Seriously - would you go cry your tears somewhere else. Loaning ISK is a game mechanic *created* by the players so CCP has no responsibility to guarantee your loans. Would you have any sympathy for me *if* I rented space in 0.0 and was scammed? Would you have any sympathy if I was ransomed in low sec, paid the ransom and got killed anyway? Would you have any sympathy for me if I paid GS to join them only to find it was a scam? No. So why should we have any sympathy for you if you load someone ISK and you end up losing it? You seem to be asking for a stone cold guarantee for your "business". Well, guess what? This is EVE. You want guarantees, go play another game. PAN
Do you believe I give a crap about losing 10B off a failed loan? NO. I give many craps about being banned because I got paid back the loan yet the dude's payback money came from RMT and that "virally" made me banned. Even if "only" banned for the 3 weeks needed to have a GM look at what happened. Learn to understand what others write. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2978
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:27:00 -
[367] - Quote
This is an interesting topic and something that has been on my mind for years when it comes to my 3rd party business.
I have no way of knowing where ISK orginates from, and is also the reason why I don't ask because I would simply be lied to anyway. I however do practise caution and avoid assisting if I feel things are dodgy or I suspect RMT.
Another practise I take is to always try keep a record of buyer and seller and who ISK is being sent to.
For example ISK flows buyer->me->seller, rather than buyer->me->random alt created 2 days ago - that (I think) makes it easier for CCP to trace the flow as well, plus hopefully it keeps me out of trouble.
I also do report suspicious transfers as I don't wish to be banned myself and I do not support RMT. I do see the problems with loans that VV is talking about as that is a somewhat different thing compared to my 3rd party service.
I'd be happy to support CCP in any way I can and hope that they continue on discussing this with us should there be issues with how me and others provide services to help making it harder to RMT.
/c
|
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voetius
Starwinders The Unwilling.
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:53:00 -
[368] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:
Which begs the question, is it cheaper to pay a security team money to ban botters instead of fixing the actual game mechanics?
You can change game mechanics but cheaters will cheat regardless.
Good work Sreegs and team.
|
Feawin
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 07:57:00 -
[369] - Quote
I've been waiting for this a while. It's good to see it's finally happening. Dear CCP; you continue to impress me with your new-found resolve. |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:03:00 -
[370] - Quote
Sreegs one suggestion i have for banned accounts besides not bio massing the chars so the name cant be reused is this.
where the banned RMT/booting account has officer/faction/deadspace items either on ships or in hangers, rather than simply remove them etc, put them up for auction and have the isk/equiv plex amount be donated monthly to charrity like make a wish foundation.
|
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
112
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:21:00 -
[371] - Quote
Sreegs have u guys thought about combating the injection bots with simplistic encryption and sending the encryption key using QKD? (Quantum Key Distribution)
have wondered myself if the tech has gotten robust enough to be used over TCP/IP networks yet, and if encrypting communication from the server to the client will severely degrade the servers performance.
anyways keep up the good work bro! |
Carniflex
StarHunt Broken Toys
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:28:00 -
[372] - Quote
Burn em all. Only way to be sure.
I approve. Love and kisses :)
Keep up the good work and I might put away my bitter vet hat and get out the happy vet hat instead. |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:39:00 -
[373] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Learn to understand what others write.
Vaerah, why don't you take your own advice, or your meds, or preferably both, and stop beating the dead dog.. It's getting squishy.
Sreegs has answered your incessant questioning, no make that whining, with more grace and patience than you deserve, and answered your "concern" to the best of his ability and without giving actual methods away other than that while the flagging/tracking system is at least partly automated, each case/cluster is individually handled to ensure the Knife is properly Twisted.
The fact that his answer is not to your liking falls under HTFU. From where I'm sitting you are simply trying to get him to admit you are a Special Case and are ...."Safe", or have him stumble over some of your verbal diarhhea and make a remark you can later claim as "proof" that you have been Woefully Done Wrong.
Sreegs does not speculate, does not comment on hypothetical cases other than "we'll deal with it if the situation crops up", and will never give you what you seem to desire. |
Cairo
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:40:00 -
[374] - Quote
These changes get a big thumbs up from me, especially the move to a daily cycle. As I believe Screegs mentioned in his Fanfest presentation, it makes RMT'ing less appealing because there's no downtime during which to amass fortunes.
I see another upside, too, which I don't think anyone brought up yet: if the security team decides to extend their net and RMT-enabled collateral damage happens - wether it's lost ISK, virtual property or time and effort people have poured into this game - it'll be more granular and easily mitigated than before. Instead of a singular, big blow that tallies all the bad stuff some people did over time and potentially touches innocent people they dealt with in considerable ways, the losses will be easier to handle. Less ISK lost, less time wasted. In theory, anyway.
I know I'd rather get dinged by a day's worth of trading if RMT-enabled property somehow passed through my hands and the security team saw fit to withdraw profits made from them (or I was simply paid with tainted ISK), than hear about it a month or two later after unknowingly doing more business with the same people. At that point it would hurt much, much more. Likewise a corporation or an alliance probably won't topple over a single day's secret illegal activity by some of their members (who also get rooted out much faster).
Naturally this all relies on the security team's ability to keep the cycle up and none of us can tell the future. I like the direction and intent, however, and wish the team a great deal of fortitude. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
459
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:48:00 -
[375] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Shandir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. The only place to buy PLEX is from the account management section of our website or ingame for is. I hope that helps. I believe this is inaccurate given there's a GTC > ISK trading forum and feature in account management on EVE's site. Legal ways to get 3rd party GTCs into ISK. Either GTC > PLEX conversion feature in game > ISK, or GTC > GTC trading feature on EVE's site > ISK. That's what I get for reposting what someone else said v0v If those things exist then yeah I guess you can use them. Nice, Another dev in charge of something who doesnt know of the mechanisms that the game has in play to support "Legal RMT". Lets hope he didnt ban every player from feb/march who traded GTC for ISK via the forums ;P... Actually, Sreegs is right.
The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
Anton Knoffield
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:50:00 -
[376] - Quote
All I have to say is THANK YOU CCP!...
- for taking a higher and much more aggressive to this game community destroying activity.... eat your heart out blizzard! - for beginning to ensure that the hurt-locker of bans will be swift and only real eve online players rule this sandbox! - for seeking to be the tide that washes the beach of bot kingdoms to the ground
Keep up the good work... I have an empire to run |
Eduardo'o
Versatech Co. Raiden.
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:51:00 -
[377] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.
So ....; whe you loose ships, you suffer more since it will be more boring to make the isk back .... that sounds like the entire purpose of this game !
by the way, if prices go up, honest miners and producers will be more happy |
Di Jiensai
Domination. En Garde
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:52:00 -
[378] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, do you realize that you probably have the most awesomest job in the world?
"I am an Internet Spaceship Sheriff. And i get paid for it."
Also: keep doing what you are doing, and you will never have to pay for a single beer ever again on fanfest.
|
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
48
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:54:00 -
[379] - Quote
IGÇÖm concerned that I have loaned ISK to a character called LaVsita Vista a few years ago but can not verify if he is a non-botting non-RMT player. He was closely associated with a high profile player who was banned for RMT. |
Francisco Bizzaro
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 08:56:00 -
[380] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back.
Do you lie awake at night worrying about the asteroid that could come crashing through your roof any minute? It hasn't happened. It probably won't happen. So there's no point in acting like you are already the victim.
Take some precautions to prevent it from happening (see Chribba's suggestions above). Otherwise, just deal with it when the time comes.
Based on many replies from Sreegs, I guess you're not going to get that iron-clad guarantee that your money-laundering business is safe in perpetuity. So like the rest of us, just do your best to keep your nose clean and trust that the world is not out to victimize you. |
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Artyom Hunter
Battlestars S E D I T I O N
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 09:24:00 -
[381] - Quote
Just Curious. If i'm transfering money to my Highsec Market alt to buy ships/ Gear to ship to my PvP activities in nullsec... Will the system be able to tell between that and RMT? Otherwise I'll have a "FUUUUUUUN" time everytime I wanna get more equipment, having to JC to Highsec, buy the gear contract it home and jc back 24 hours later... See the problem? Wastes a couple of days... |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
506
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 09:36:00 -
[382] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:MotherMoon wrote:I hate to be, THAT GUY, but what happen to me being able to use my little security code thing i got at LAST YEARS FANFEST.
Are you guys that ADHD? ETA is July 2012. It was mentioned in CCP Sreeg's last thread (regarding the Scarlet Letters). It probably will happen at the same time as the Launcher becomes the "login" point for the game. At least, that's my guess.
woot
also I'm confused... isn't the new launcher... the old launcher from 2003?
O.o
once we log into eve from it... what makes it different from the 2003 launcher? |
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
202
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 09:43:00 -
[383] - Quote
Thank you guys so much for turning the fight against RMT and botters into a full scale asymmetric war. It's been long overdue and it's time the practice become a rarity instead of a bitter joke.
I applaud most your move to disable character sales and trades of these accounts, this one change in policy is going to literally cut the legs out from under the cheating presence within EVE.
I wish I could buy you all a beer. The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.
One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear. |
Artyom Hunter
Battlestars S E D I T I O N
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 09:44:00 -
[384] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Nemesis Factor wrote:I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.
I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.
Kudos to the security team, BTW. You too would get nervous if suddenly what you are playing EvE for since years, suddenly became a suspicious activity to be watched closely. Read my signature: Collateral holding / 3rd party service => have to swap tens of billions worth of stuff all the time. Being a trusted collateral holder / 3rd party service in EvE is extremely hard as it involves total trust. Suddenly the hardest achievement in EvE - takes years to become trusted to hold Titans on behalf of 3rd parties - becomes a potential banhammer trigger. Investing => again, something done for years. Putting tens of billions in the hands of other players *in EvE none the less* with the hope to see them back after 1+ months. Risky enough? No, now the likes of you consider it "something shady". Charity => again, something done for enough time to be showcased at Fanfest 2011. Yet, how do I choose how to NOT get a donation off a RMTer and be royally screwed over? Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back.
Actually, as much as I dislike RMTers, This guy has a point. In my early EVE days i'd often run around in Couster helping random noobs by doing l3 Missions with them and giving them ISK so that they might actually get the fullgame, especially if I knew them IRL (So I'd eventually have more people to shoot at). Sure i'd only give them like 10m or so each to get them their first cruiser, but if charity makes me an evil RMTing scum bucket then it might be a bit too harsh.
Furthermore, with ingame PLEX prices costing around 500m a pop, It is difficult for PLEX reliant players to get back on their feet after extende periods away from the game, and may need loans from Corpmates because they don't have the means to get 500m isk before their account runs out. E.G Someone a know IRL was away from the game for about a month because he was hospitalized for a bone infection, and he has been having a little bit of trouble with overnight checkups and what not reducing the amount of time he has had to make money for PLEX. He is sometimes forced to take loans from corpmates/me to help his accounts get going (which is always paysback mind you). So how will the system/ security be able to tell between a 500m PLEX loan and a 500m RMT transaction? |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
407
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 09:48:00 -
[385] - Quote
CCP Sreegs & Team Security,
congrats for one of the best dev blogs I've ever read, happiness through justice <3
Keep up the great work, this is something that every legit EVE player around the world appreciates. Thanks!
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
499
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:04:00 -
[386] - Quote
Grikath wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Learn to understand what others write. Vaerah, why don't you take your own advice, or your meds, or preferably both, and stop beating the dead dog.. It's getting squishy. Sreegs has answered your incessant questioning, no make that whining, with more grace and patience than you deserve, and answered your "concern" to the best of his ability and without giving actual methods away other than that while the flagging/tracking system is at least partly automated, each case/cluster is individually handled to ensure the Knife is properly Twisted. The fact that his answer is not to your liking falls under HTFU. From where I'm sitting you are simply trying to get him to admit you are a Special Case and are ...."Safe", or have him stumble over some of your verbal diarhhea and make a remark you can later claim as "proof" that you have been Woefully Done Wrong. Sreegs does not speculate, does not comment on hypothetical cases other than "we'll deal with it if the situation crops up", and will never give you what you seem to desire.
Too bad you don't know anything about me and how I got slowly tortured by CCP for months in the past already nor that the cases I bring in have precise names and situations behind them (and yes, I contacted the customer support with no results ever). For once I find a CCP employee who is willing to reply, to prove he's alive and breathing and so I ask him what I can. If all the CCP employees were like CCP Sreegs I would never have posted anything. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
247
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:09:00 -
[387] - Quote
I wasn't going to butt in on this good discussion. But since it was requested, hi!
In a few weeks, once we have more data and pretty graphs, we'll make a numbers blog. So look forward to that. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
|
Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp. Citex Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:14:00 -
[388] - Quote
liking the stillman :)
thanks very much sreegs, stillman, and co. you should get raises and fewer days off. sreegs: patience of a ******* saint. :mindblown: i really want vaerah's stuff i'm hopeful but not optimistic |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:17:00 -
[389] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Too bad you don't know anything about me and how I got slowly tortured by CCP for months in the past already nor that the cases I bring in have precise names and situations behind them (and yes, I contacted the customer support with no results ever). For once I find a CCP employee who is willing to reply, to prove he's alive and breathing and so I ask him what I can. If all the CCP employees were like CCP Sreegs I would never have posted anything.
All we know is that you have been whining incessantly asking for something you have been told - repeatedly - in this thread that you are not going to get.
PAN
|
YellowRaven
YellowRaven Corp2
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:21:00 -
[390] - Quote
Hopefully more will buy PLEX from CCP now which if combined with other actions as promised in the fanfest related specifically with the PLEX itself,will make PLEX cheaper, thus accounts living on PLEX will have other game options than surviving.Like pvping more risking more play even more.Getting involved more.It also makes mining and ratting without bots meaningfull.At last it was about time for CCP to take the most obvious action to isk inflation than lower bounties and rewards. |
|
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:21:00 -
[391] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Too bad you don't know anything about me and how I got slowly tortured by CCP for months in the past already nor that the cases I bring in have precise names and situations behind them (and yes, I contacted the customer support with no results ever). For once I find a CCP employee who is willing to reply, to prove he's alive and breathing and so I ask him what I can. If all the CCP employees were like CCP Sreegs I would never have posted anything.
All we know is that you have been whining incessantly asking for something you have been told - repeatedly - in this thread that you are not going to get. PAN
it's actually miscommunication but it's entertaining
|
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:27:00 -
[392] - Quote
Artyom Hunter wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Nemesis Factor wrote:I tend to really lose faith in humanity when the most forum active Dev in CCP catches so much **** from players.
I find it really hard to grasp why anyone would be made nervous by that blog. Have some faith that they are trying to catch bots, not harass players. If you are nervous based simply on reading that blog, your probably doing something shady.
Kudos to the security team, BTW. You too would get nervous if suddenly what you are playing EvE for since years, suddenly became a suspicious activity to be watched closely. Read my signature: Collateral holding / 3rd party service => have to swap tens of billions worth of stuff all the time. Being a trusted collateral holder / 3rd party service in EvE is extremely hard as it involves total trust. Suddenly the hardest achievement in EvE - takes years to become trusted to hold Titans on behalf of 3rd parties - becomes a potential banhammer trigger. Investing => again, something done for years. Putting tens of billions in the hands of other players *in EvE none the less* with the hope to see them back after 1+ months. Risky enough? No, now the likes of you consider it "something shady". Charity => again, something done for enough time to be showcased at Fanfest 2011. Yet, how do I choose how to NOT get a donation off a RMTer and be royally screwed over? Now, all of the above would not be an issue if CCP - like most other MMO companies - would reply to petitions within 1 day. But no, they take up to 3 weeks and then you lose all your credibility you patiently earned in game, you lose all your POS jobs, you lose the POS as well (as it'll go offline) and you will NOT be reimbursed. Also, as posted everywhere time after time, there's NO sanctioned way to prove CCP you were not involved in something, therefore bar few exceptions you'll never get cleared your ban. You'll go from trusted service to purple letter felon with no recourse, no hope, no coming back. Actually, as much as I dislike RMTers, This guy has a point. In my early EVE days i'd often run around in Couster helping random noobs by doing l3 Missions with them and giving them ISK so that they might actually get the fullgame, especially if I knew them IRL (So I'd eventually have more people to shoot at). Sure i'd only give them like 10m or so each to get them their first cruiser, but if charity makes me an evil RMTing scum bucket then it might be a bit too harsh. Furthermore, with ingame PLEX prices costing around 500m a pop, It is difficult for PLEX reliant players to get back on their feet after extende periods away from the game, and may need loans from Corpmates because they don't have the means to get 500m isk before their account runs out. E.G Someone a know IRL was away from the game for about a month because he was hospitalized for a bone infection, and he has been having a little bit of trouble with overnight checkups and what not reducing the amount of time he has had to make money for PLEX. He is sometimes forced to take loans from corpmates/me to help his accounts get going (which is always paysback mind you). So how will the system/ security be able to tell between a 500m PLEX loan and a 500m RMT transaction?
A transaction is not just a transaction.. it is a transaction with a Known RMTer then the banning begins.. (I believe) The reason there has been a delay RMT trading bans was to track the web of people involved from the few RMT people who were found.
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1078
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:41:00 -
[393] - Quote
Keep up the good work.
Get |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
499
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:51:00 -
[394] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote: All we know is that you have been whining incessantly asking for something you have been told - repeatedly - in this thread that you are not going to get.
See I am but an internet spaceships player but I took extreme measures to safeguard my charity donors so that their donations would not be totally lost even if I die in RL, even if multiple people scammed.
I am caring *that much* for my customers even if they are but other internet anonymous. I'd wish to see some safeguards and pre-emptive tools being given to actual real customers (us the players) so that we can take a CCP certified bookkeeping with proof CCP will readily accept (and not depending on weather and random GM humor). Not to be hostage of whatever random event could happen.
Example:
Gevlin wrote: A transaction is not just a transaction.. it is a transaction with a Known RMTer then the banning begins.. (I believe) The reason there has been a delay RMT trading bans was to track the web of people involved from the few RMT people who were found.
I brought a practical case where he can have indirect transactions with unknown RTMer and get in all sorts of troubles. IF you get to talk with the correct GM and IF he feels helpful that day and IF he'll accept your book keeping records then you will be fine indeed. But the IFs are a flimsy defense. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
saiy'an
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:03:00 -
[395] - Quote
hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.
how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal? |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2041
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:09:00 -
[396] - Quote
saiy'an wrote:hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.
how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal?
CCP GM who's name I can't be arsed to look up wrote: A short answer to questions about what is/isn't ok for ETC/PLEX acquisition would be:
Buying ETC from official resellers - Ok Converting an ETC to 2 PLEX - Ok Selling an ETC through the secure method - Ok Buying PLEX through Account Management - Ok Buying and Selling PLEX in game via the Market and Contracts - Ok Buying PLEX from other Websites - Not Allowed
|
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:13:00 -
[397] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Editited out the same old drivel being repeated - again.
And still you keep on harping that CCP somehow owe it to you to offer you a check for an activity that they never sanctioned.
One of the things that people want in this game is a player driven sandbox.
Well, matey, you have it.
Just like there is no fallback, guarantee or safety net with ransoms, renting, market and contract scams, market manipulation and all the player introduced sandbox elements it's the same with loaning. While falling victim to any of these may not result in a ban they do run the risk of my work over several years of playing the game being destroyed.
And so it is with offering 3rd party services and making loans.
You added it - and by you I mean the players that introduced and then took advantage of it before you start getting pedantic on me - and it's up to you to accept the risks involved.
The answer is rather simple. If you don't want to risk being banned then don't lend money.
You lend money you accept the risk.
PAN
|
saiy'an
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:17:00 -
[398] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:saiy'an wrote:hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.
how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal? CCP GM who's name I can't be arsed to look up wrote: A short answer to questions about what is/isn't ok for ETC/PLEX acquisition would be:
Buying ETC from official resellers - Ok Converting an ETC to 2 PLEX - Ok Selling an ETC through the secure method - Ok Buying PLEX through Account Management - Ok Buying and Selling PLEX in game via the Market and Contracts - Ok Buying PLEX from other Websites - Not Allowed
thankyou |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
295
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:50:00 -
[399] - Quote
Was reading through this thread and a thought occurred to me about the system possibly flagging me for this reason :
I run DED sites with a friend and if we get good loot one of us sells it on the market and then split the proceeds. Sometimes we split before we sell the loot because we know its market value and know that its a fast seller. For example in the last couple of days we have gotten two B-Type Invulnerability fields selling for around 900m on contracts atm. Split would be around 500m each because of the OPE and other stuff that drops, so basically it will be a 500m transaction appearing in my journal. Will these transactions pop up as a flashing red light on CCP Sreeg's desktop? To the whiners :-áCCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" CCP Recurve "However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are"
|
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1078
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:50:00 -
[400] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
PLEX are only for snitches.
I have solid information that CCP Sunset and CCP Guard were selling RMT Quafe in fanfest. CCP Punkturis rigged the delivery courier interface with some sort of macro program and CCP Navigator was running cloaking device to keep entire project under the radar. Rumor is that CCP Soundwave was the mastermind behind this scam and that it benefited the group with tens of billions of free isk. Please take a look and don't forget to send me a plex for telling you all this!
Get |
|
Koby Botick
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
80
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 11:56:00 -
[401] - Quote
About ensuring legitimate emails can be distinguished from people trying to phish:
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved.
There is a very effective and very easy way to do it. Have every player set a personal keyword on their account. Send this keyword along with every official mail:
From: eve To: player
.... stuff ....
Your personal keyword is: "Sreegs" (if you don't see your personally set keyword here, then the mail is not from us but from some baaaad guys! See this link for more information about this feature....)
...
There are basically 2 attack vectors to this: a) hack your account db where this information is stored. But then we're all ****** anyway b) hack the recipients system so you can read out a previously received official mail and get the keyword. However if you can do this, you probably can also just install a keylogger in the first place.
|
Z2ZzzzZ2Z
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 12:04:00 -
[402] - Quote
i'm still waiting to see the response for my post, number 325, in this thread. i'm not trying to nit-pick but i don't see why the rules/punishments not being clearly outlined bothers so few. i don't do things against the rules but if isk is loaned there is a 'slight risk' of action taken against the lender. again, isk being not returned is acceptable ... in fact kind of a duh...
will isk that has been loaned and paid back be still stripped?
will the lender's account ever be banned for a loan or are you looking to go after people with a repeated history?
if i have to worry about how i play this game in regards actions that are 100% legal in game actions(loaning a buddy money... unless the sandbox is closed....) or even starting a business doing it then it makes me not want to play.
|
Enuen Ravenseye
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 12:12:00 -
[403] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:before I moonwalk off into the sunset.
Video, or it didn't happen!
P.S. Great job on the crackdown. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3244
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 12:16:00 -
[404] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:Was reading through this thread and a thought occurred to me about the system possibly flagging me for this reason :
I run DED sites with a friend and if we get good loot one of us sells it on the market and then split the proceeds. Sometimes we split before we sell the loot because we know its market value and know that its a fast seller. For example in the last couple of days we have gotten two B-Type Invulnerability fields selling for around 900m on contracts atm. Split would be around 500m each because of the OPE and other stuff that drops, so basically it will be a 500m transaction appearing in my journal. Will these transactions pop up as a flashing red light on CCP Sreeg's desktop?
If neither of you are involved in any ISk-selling activity, then it's very unlikely.
My tl;dr inferrence of Sreegs various answers is:-
Transferring 500M to a friend -> fine
Transferring 500M to a friend who, unknown to you, is involved in RMT activity -> flag
Transferring 500M to a friend who, unknown to you, is involved in RMT activity, with no obvious reason like sharing the profits of that B-type -> danger
Transferring 5,000M to a friend who, "unknown to you", is involved in RMT activity, with no obvious reason like sharing the profits of that B-type -> BAN HAMMAR!! Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2087
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 12:55:00 -
[405] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
PLEX are only for snitches.
I have solid information that CCP Sunset and CCP Guard were selling RMT Quafe in fanfest. CCP Punkturis rigged the delivery courier interface with some sort of macro program and CCP Navigator was running cloaking device to keep entire project under the radar. Rumor is that CCP Soundwave was the mastermind behind this scam and that it benefited the group with tens of billions of free isk. Please take a look and don't forget to send me a plex for telling you all this!
You know too much. I've dreaded this day for a long time but I always knew it would come...
Sreegs...please make it quick. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
|
Ximena Navah
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 13:22:00 -
[406] - Quote
Can our overlords give us an estimate of how many RMT/Botters have been banned and how much isk has been poured down the sink?
I GÖÑ CCP |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
254
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 13:23:00 -
[407] - Quote
Wait...there is a PLEX for Snitches program ?
I wonder if that can be 'gamed' FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
xxwaynoxx
The Silhouette Group
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 13:30:00 -
[408] - Quote
we'll be watching the Elonya ice belt, our local bot paradise, to see if the numbers decrease...
And one of ours was very active in notifying CCP of activity, so some rules as to the snitching would be appreciated. ie depth of info |
Freibuis WasHere
Legion of Lost Souls The Lego Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 13:43:00 -
[409] - Quote
OMG.. I cant believe I am actually mining again.. not because there are roids to mine again but because low end mins are increase in price to fast. faster then most low end players can absorb. Trit almost touching 6 isk and isotopes at almost ready to reach 1000 isk. plus the fact that plex prices are becoming more then the average player can absorb.
Cant believe this is not butter. I love the changes.. but as an industrialist.. it is also killing us slowy ... maybe in 3 months it my balance out. any way. Good to hear. great changes, keep them coming
CCP Sreegs. 2 Questions.
1: Has any one from your department consulted with the king of eve econmics CCP Dr.EyjoG about the fast pace of removing Botters (not RMT's) example: effects on market. effects on player uptake in other areas, accounts going inactive because price are getting to high fast.
2: Question about donations made to players who could be RMT/botting and we not know about it. example.. I donate from time to time small somes to Eve uni chars to help them get started and big amounts to friends (heck I feel generous from time to time). If they were later found to bot/RMT would I also be liable? would it be in my best interest now to stop giving cash to new players? If I was to donate a large sum of isk to another player/corp/aliance is there a way to check that they are not on a list of Botters/RMT's to prevent my self from being lumped accidentally in the same trash pile/
I cant belive I am actually getting excited about mining again. (/me hides under the couch away from his own sarcasm ) |
Echo Mande
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 13:55:00 -
[410] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Remulon McNab wrote:I am curious if you guys (CCP) could make a dynamic counter thing that shows information on how many bans have been served and how much isk has been sinked. so we're able to follow this info "semi-realtime" at the other hand Sreegs well done (with the anti-RMT+BOT) and we definately sleep better at night. (Did you get Roc Wieler as personal coach ) Not sure we'd be too comfortable with something automated but we will be giving more detailed numbers. I'm going to the gym with GM Moxie, CCP Soundwave and CCP Mindstar. We're doing something called the Ultimate Anime Workout and Soundwave guarantees it's going to make me go supersaiyan.
A pity really, but understandable. On the other hand there's probably a market in allowing the peanut gallery to bet on how much ISK and how many supercaps CCP bans/eats on any given day.
Keep up the good work. Banning bots might make it possible to do mining for a nice profit and manufacturing for a bigger profit than right now.
Echo |
|
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:08:00 -
[411] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:I wasn't going to butt in on this good discussion. But since it was requested, hi! In a few weeks, once we have more data and pretty graphs, we'll make a numbers blog. So look forward to that.
can you tell how many PLEX had ben seized ?
and as the good doctor said , there are 10k plex sitting on banned accounts already , any plans to reintroduce em ?
What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Echo Mande
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:18:00 -
[412] - Quote
Jim Luc wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Jim Luc wrote:By the way, is there any way we can put an end to the endless "Player Transfer" phishing spam? I've been getting lots of it and forward each to [email protected] - usually it all goes to the trash anyways. I generally don't even click any links in an Eve-related email, even if it's from CCP. They're offering free time but I won't take their survey simply because I don't trust any emails from ccp or related anymore. Is there a way we can determine if an email link is authentic, and each email that's sent from CCP also be accessible via logging into our accounts without clicking through a link? It would be nice to see all CCP correspondence, even marketing & such, in our Account Settings pages. Just a thought - keep up the tremendous work Sreegs! I'll look into this. I hadn't thought of it actually and I think it's a good idea. Unfortunately we don't own The Internet so we can't stop people from sending mails. We're working on the problem but there's no really easy solution given the technology involved. Ha, yes I realized after sending that you can't control all the spam of course LOL - just that there might be some IP addresses that you could release as being on a public watchlist from known phishers. Idunno - just throwing ideas out there
Adding a section to account management for CCP's messages would probably be the most secure way to do it. Then all CCP'd have to do is put a note/page/rant there and send an email note ("We've decided to annoy you!") to direct you there. Sending an eve-mail note to the account's toons (from CCP Robocrat ?) would also be possible if not desireable.
|
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:20:00 -
[413] - Quote
Chribba wrote: I also do report suspicious transfers as I don't wish to be banned myself and I do not support RMT. I do see the problems with loans that VV is talking about as that is a somewhat different thing compared to my 3rd party service.
I'd be happy to support CCP in any way I can and hope that they continue on discussing this with us should there be issues with how me and others provide services to help making it harder to RMT.
/c
I have to agree with Chribba here. But we need some input from CCP, for service providers such as Chribba and I about how we can deter RMT while protecting ourselves. Personally I'm involved in 3rd party services like Chribba and loan services like VV, so my exposure to potential bans isn't exactly comforting, especially when I simply can never know for sure where the isk comes from.
Grendell GÖÑ
Gùä[GÖÑ]Gû¦ [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8670[/url] Gùä[GÖÑ]Gû¦ GÖÑ In-Game Channel "Grendell" GÖÑ GÖÑ EVE-Mail Contact "Grendell" GÖÑ GÖÑ Securing Peace of mind GÖÑ |
John Frohike
Militant Mermen LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:21:00 -
[414] - Quote
Death to Bots, death to RTM bastards! May the skys be filled with the bodies of the guilty! |
ctx2007
Wychwood and Wells
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:37:00 -
[415] - Quote
amazing how many toons are up for sale in forums |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:41:00 -
[416] - Quote
ctx2007 wrote:amazing how many toons are up for sale in forums
thought you cant sell if flagged ?? What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Shanky McStabber
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:43:00 -
[417] - Quote
I have a question for Jersey Johnson.
Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services?
As per the CCP Want Ads forums:
5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service]
CCP Spitfire Post |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
141
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:43:00 -
[418] - Quote
Lt Pizi wrote:thought you cant sell if flagged ??
the theory is theyre being dumped before they get negged/banned
|
Chris Wheeler
Massively Motivated
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:48:00 -
[419] - Quote
Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner.
This reads like a left-wing political commentary. Pro illegal immigration (bots) because the legal citizens(players) don't want to do the work that the illegals are willing to do. Supply and demand will balance everything out. Illegals get deported, ore supply will drop causing prices to go up (and prices of everything else as well). Since ore prices are higher, it is now worthwhile for legal citizens to mine, which will increase supply and lower prices. Prices are going to bob around until they reach equilibrium. The Government (ccp) needs to enforce the laws they produce (ex: no bots) and let the market regulate itself. They are doing that and all legal citizens will benefit from it. If making money was easy and the funnest thing in the game, inflation would skyrocket, but just like in the real world, the fun comes from SPENDING the money:) Also, Sreegs rocks. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:52:00 -
[420] - Quote
Now here is the dark question.... what is the false positive rate on this?
A while back I knew a player who was not involved in RMT, was 'detected' as such, and found he had no real recourse to defend himself. Every query to customer service came back with 'we have conclusive evidence' and nothing else. The person made heavy use of multiple boxes, PLEX, and 'power of two', but no bots. Granted this was a year or two ago during that first round of 'unholy rage!' so perhaps things have improved since then, but at the time it was rather chilling to watch.
The best guess anyone came up with was they thought the ISK transfers between his own accounts were RMT going on.... but since people are happy to have big stats when people talk about 'number of accounts banned/ISK destroyed', the political incentive to ferret out the false positives is not that high. It didn't help that as the discussion with the GM progressed it became more clear that the person's actual crime was 'too many accounts, too much time online'. |
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
94
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:57:00 -
[421] - Quote
Chris Wheeler wrote: This reads like a left-wing political commentary. Pro illegal immigration (bots) because the legal citizens(players) don't want to do the work that the illegals are willing to do.
I thought this was the right wing argument?
You can't deport them! They're the cheapest servants I've ever had! (not fond of either wing, I'll walk TYVM).
Needless to say, the rules are there for a reason, and in the case of botting I would invite anybody who thinks the game is too boring to play to go outside and quit %#$#ting in our sandbox. |
Lt Pizi
Dark-Rising
71
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:01:00 -
[422] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Lt Pizi wrote:thought you cant sell if flagged ?? the theory is theyre being dumped before they get negged/banned
i c well then , maybe ccp should ban character sales for a short period Edit or at least put a warning What a lot of goon need to realise is that its not because we hate you that we do these things Its because -áWE LOVE YOU Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume! |
Chris Wheeler
Massively Motivated
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:04:00 -
[423] - Quote
Allataria wrote:This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec.
Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game.
It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals
Let me summarize for TLDR crowd: "It's not my fault I bot, ITS A DISEASE! I am a VICTIM. (please send isk to this poor, helpless victim)" |
Chris Wheeler
Massively Motivated
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:11:00 -
[424] - Quote
Allataria wrote:All I see here is I'm a pubbie who likes to mission customer the how I play. Try ratting in null sec for 6 hours a day and tell me its more fun and productive then missions. Oh that's right its not. CCP is failing to look at reasons and causes to hitting and is lazy going for the easy fix. Long time players have tried in vain to express the shortcomings of the game but it has fallen on deaf ears time and time again. Maybe when these bots get banned and loads of long timers stop subbing and the in game market falls apart and CCP starts to.lose.money they will see the larger picture.
Pelosi plays EVE?!?!? |
Victor Valka
Endoxa Corporation
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:13:00 -
[425] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:MissGemini wrote:@CCP Screegs - I have info I would like to convey in an anon fashion, how should I do this? [email protected] I'm the only one who sees it Is that an invitation to send nudes or what!?
|
Chris Wheeler
Massively Motivated
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:27:00 -
[426] - Quote
I'm SOOO gonna send you inappropriate pictures. |
Par'Gellen
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:49:00 -
[427] - Quote
I didn't read the entire thread but my only concern about the whole botting/banning thing would be false positives. For instance: If I were to try to log in one day and got an "You've been banned!" message I would need to know why in detail since I don't bot or deal with RMT in any way THAT I AM AWARE OF. I buy and sell large quantities of various things on the market and contracts all the time and I have no idea if the buyers and sellers are botters or RMT'ers. Does that connect me to them in terms of flagging?
And my biggest concern is what's to stop some rich asshat who is mad at me and fed up with the game and never going to play again from sending me isk and then reporting me as RMT? I understand he would be killing his own account as well but if he doesn't care about that then what's to stop him?
These are the things that concern me about this whole affair.
If you can assure me this kind false positive thing can't happen then I'm all for it! To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Ximena Navah
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:51:00 -
[428] - Quote
Chris Wheeler wrote:Allataria wrote:This was an argument to reduce botting not RMT. Your statement seems that you still don't understand the reasoning most people use to support why they not. All I see is we aren't willing to look at new ways to improve our game and help our players we just want a quick solution regardless of the implications that it creates. When I mean fun I mean anything other then warp to belt kill these rats. Warp to next belt. Rinse repeat. Missed are far enjoyable then ratting or running anomalies. Null sec and all space needs more and engaging ways to make isk. Sitting in a belt with a miner or ratting ship for six hours a day is not fun way to make island compared to missions in high sec.
Your statement is highly disturbing for those of us who want the game to improve itself and that CCP is listening to the entire playerbase not just a minority. More research could have been done in understanding why people bot and ask those who do why they do it so the game can be improve d for the better and enjoyment for all instead of you will be banned and we don't care about trying to improve the game.
It will be interesting to see how the market will react to all these accounts being banned when so much of the.economy depends on their output. My guess is negatively. Might be a good time to start buying minerals Let me summarize for TLDR crowd: "It's not my fault I bot, ITS A DISEASE! I am a VICTIM. (please send isk to this poor, helpless victim)"
Perhaps the Security Team should look in depth into "Martyr's Vengeance" - I heard one irish dude had a few bots up in venal while in the "testagram" in Deklein |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:57:00 -
[429] - Quote
Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
|
Ibn Taymiyyah
Treasures Collectors Northern Associates.
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:59:00 -
[430] - Quote
Good work. Nice to see some giants fall of the cliff
CCP Sreegs, this whole thing about people not having a way of knowing who's the bad guy reminded me of your thread about the name and shame, and why chars that have been banned for botting in the past should be marked. Well, this is one of the other cenarios where people would be, at least, more careful when handing out isk, regardless if it's a loan or a donation. Whatever
Just thought I'd add this to the discussion. Sorry if someone else brought it up already but I didn't manage to read the whole thread as real life happened and prevented me from doing so! :D |
|
Par'Gellen
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:06:00 -
[431] - Quote
Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
That does not assure me in the slightest... Hell at this point I'm actually concerned about buying or selling anything. To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Selissa Shadoe
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:27:00 -
[432] - Quote
I think while it's understandable that we're against botters since they ruin the market it's interesting to see that although there's lots of punishment ideas being waved around noone has mentioned WHY the botters even exist to begin with. If a part of the gameplay can be so simple to be replicated by a software program then shouldn't the focus be on trying to change that aspect of gameplay?
The whole 'scarlet letter' thread and 'plex for snitches' is disturbing since it sounds too much like **** Germany (yes, I went there) and you have the distinct possibility of abuse of the system, as mentioned about people falsely reporting their foes.
All in all I think it would wise to tread carefully on any punishment scheme since this is a GAME after all, and if it becomes too draconian then people will leave it.
EDIT: apparently not possible to Godwin the thread these days.. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
228
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:36:00 -
[433] - Quote
I reckong you also keep your eyes on E-Bay and Graigslist and such. Plenty of illegal stuff going on there.
E-Bay you could make use of the VeRO-Program to get those removed.
just a suggestion |
Par'Gellen
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:38:00 -
[434] - Quote
Is there any way I can alert CCP when I'm going to do something that might get me flagged? Do I need to submit a petition before each market sale or isk transfer?
Something like: "I'm selling/buying a rediculously large pile of PI stuff today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!" "I'm transfering a rediculously large amount of isk between atls today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!" "I'm depositing/removing a rediculously large amount of isk to/from the corp wallet today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!" "I'm gonna grind some missions today. My alt(s) might help out. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
Etcetera ad infinitum...
I'm all for botters/RMT destruction but I do NOT want to be lumped in with them through normal gameplay. To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
94
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:48:00 -
[435] - Quote
Selissa Shadoe wrote:I think while it's understandable that we're against botters since they ruin the market it's interesting to see that although there's lots of punishment ideas being waved around noone has mentioned WHY the botters even exist to begin with. If a part of the gameplay can be so simple to be replicated by a software program then shouldn't the focus be on trying to change that aspect of gameplay?
There is no gameplay mechanism that is both easy enough to be fun for ordinary players and too complex to automate.
In fact, gameplay complexity can reach a point where it becomes hard enough that people who wouldn't normally be tempted to use a bot because something was boring are tempted because it is too difficult otherwise.
When it comes to games, a program running on your computer: 1. can see what is going on better than you can. 2. has perfect reaction time 3. has infinite patience 4. Can react to queues that the client deliberately hides from players.
|
agrajag119
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:58:00 -
[436] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Is there any way I can alert CCP when I'm going to do something that might get me flagged? Do I need to submit a petition before each market sale or isk transfer?
Something like: "I'm selling/buying a rediculously large pile of PI stuff today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!" "I'm transfering a rediculously large amount of isk between alts today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!" "I'm depositing/removing a rediculously large amount of isk to/from the corp wallet today. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!" "I'm gonna grind some missions today. My alt(s) might help out. PLEASE DON'T BAN ME!"
Et cetera ad infinitum...
I'm all for botters/RMT destruction but I do NOT want to be lumped in with them through normal gameplay.
Sreegs has already said that they're detection mechanisms are complex enough that normal activities don't show up. Think about it, if that sort of activity got you flagged, they would be looking at a ridiculous number of each day. In order for their scripts to be effective, they have to be selective.
Now he can't go into details, simply because the bott / rmt crowd is reading this too. If he said "we watch for xxx activity", they would just stop doing that.
Put down the tinfoil for a minute and realize that this guys RL job depends on his accuracy in finding legit abusers, not the innocent. If he doesn't do it right, he's back to eating ramen each day and looking for work. If nothing else, trust in his own desire to be employed |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:05:00 -
[437] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Blastcaps Madullier wrote:Skye Aurorae wrote: I mean I have ads popup alongside my youtube tutorial videos that occasionally advertise the sale of Isk and items in Eve, I have no control over these ads Seem to remember reading something a while back about the way youtube handles IP claims, ie someone claiming eve vids etc places adds on others vids where the one claiming IP rights gets the advertising revenue, also seems a good way for RMT crowd gaining free aditional money for the adds, might be worth either yourself seeing about disputing the ownership of the vids on youtube or better CCP games doing so. atm in middle of something in eve, when i can i'll see about tracking down the news article about this and post a link on this thread. Found it. http://torrentfreak.com/youtubes-content-id-piracy-filter-wreaks-havoc-110908/ You're welcome to send some examples of these ads to [email protected]. We haven't yet done much about it but it's been on the radar.
i myself am constantly running into these adds on EVE youtube videos advertiseing RMT for EVE as well as bot programs, though i thought CCP didnt really care about the stuff on youtube, its good to see that it is indeed in your scope. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
907
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:05:00 -
[438] - Quote
& My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
907
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:06:00 -
[439] - Quote
Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
have you ever tried to petition anything with a banned account?
its rather tricky
lol My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Par'Gellen
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:08:00 -
[440] - Quote
agrajag119 wrote:Sreegs has already said that they're detection mechanisms are complex enough that normal activities don't show up. Think about it, if that sort of activity got you flagged, they would be looking at a ridiculous number of each day. In order for their scripts to be effective, they have to be selective. Now he can't go into details, simply because the bott / rmt crowd is reading this too. If he said "we watch for xxx activity", they would just stop doing that. Put down the tinfoil for a minute and realize that this guys RL job depends on his accuracy in finding legit abusers, not the innocent. If he doesn't do it right, he's back to eating ramen each day and looking for work. If nothing else, trust in his own desire to be employed I see your point. It just scares the hell out of me. I've got a lot of time in this game (pushing 9 years now) and am able to easily do things that others might find quite difficult. It just bothers me that what I consider every-day gameplay might risk getting me flagged as an RMTer or something and after reading this entire thread I see nothing that reassures me that that can't happen. To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
229
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:21:00 -
[441] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
have you ever tried to petition anything with a banned account? its rather tricky lol
Ever heard of starting a new trail account and petition from there?
Doesn't need rocketscience you know.
|
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
296
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:25:00 -
[442] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:agrajag119 wrote:Sreegs has already said that they're detection mechanisms are complex enough that normal activities don't show up. Think about it, if that sort of activity got you flagged, they would be looking at a ridiculous number of each day. In order for their scripts to be effective, they have to be selective. Now he can't go into details, simply because the bott / rmt crowd is reading this too. If he said "we watch for xxx activity", they would just stop doing that. Put down the tinfoil for a minute and realize that this guys RL job depends on his accuracy in finding legit abusers, not the innocent. If he doesn't do it right, he's back to eating ramen each day and looking for work. If nothing else, trust in his own desire to be employed I see your point. It just scares the hell out of me. I've got a lot of time in this game (pushing 9 years now) and am able to easily do things that others might find quite difficult. It just bothers me that what I consider every-day gameplay might risk getting me flagged as a RMTer or something and after reading this entire thread I see nothing that reassures me that that can't happen.
Was thinking the same earlier, posted 1 or 2 pages ago on this thread. Sometimes I just have "big" transactions happening when me and my friend get loot in DED sites and we split the value between us before we even sell the thing so as to have just 1 person worry about the market. Call me paranoid but some assurance from Sreegs that this doesn't result in a flag would be nice =) To the whiners :-áCCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" CCP Recurve "However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are"
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
260
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:33:00 -
[443] - Quote
Chris Wheeler wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. This reads like a left-wing political commentary. Pro illegal immigration (bots) because the legal citizens(players) don't want to do the work that the illegals are willing to do. Supply and demand will balance everything out. Illegals get deported, ore supply will drop causing prices to go up (and prices of everything else as well). Since ore prices are higher, it is now worthwhile for legal citizens to mine, which will increase supply and lower prices. Prices are going to bob around until they reach equilibrium. The Government (ccp) needs to enforce the laws they produce (ex: no bots) and let the market regulate itself. They are doing that and all legal citizens will benefit from it. If making money was easy and the funnest thing in the game, inflation would skyrocket, but just like in the real world, the fun comes from SPENDING the money:) Also, Sreegs rocks.
But after years of living and thriving in EvE, how can you have the heart to deport bots into the horrific conditions of other games. They've really silently accepted as part of EvE for years, funding alliances and supercaps and shouldering the grunt work!!! Don't their long hours and monotonous work count for anything? How can you strip their accounts of all they have produced?? Do you not have a heart? |
Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:47:00 -
[444] - Quote
Butthurt botters and RMT'ers in this thread. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
504
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:54:00 -
[445] - Quote
Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
Which in Unix terms is equal to dev/null.
Edit: actually no, it's more like starting a 100% RAM usage process in Windows 3.1. It gets done... eventually.
They need to hire like 10 times as many employess to make it acceptably fast. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 18:44:00 -
[446] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. Actually, Sreegs is right. The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do.
Okay, GTC can not be sold for isk, Only ingame PLEX, I'll agree with ya... CCP needs to shut down secure GTC trading as it is a figment of my imagination.
|
Chris Wheeler
Massively Motivated
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 18:47:00 -
[447] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Chris Wheeler wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. The amount of time you have to devote to turn any profit especially ratting and mining is ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if bitters are completely removed before any changes or fixes are put into place to resolve this issue the market willsuffer. Prices will soar an the output ofitems and ships will decrease. I doubt many people realise just how much the current mlarket is dependent on botters especiallythe miners. Let me say though I am not condoning or supporting them but most of the boys are a result of the game being just so dull and repetitive in the ways we make our isk. Incursions however are a good contrast as they are fun and enjoyable in how we make our money. But the problem still is that's its hard and boring to make isk especially in low and null sec. If we could find new ways to get people to actively engage the game to make isk and make it time effective we could seriously reduce the amount of botters in the game. Banning bots wont silver the problem as to why there are bots. It will just cause further issues down the road. Ccp needs to look at the initial reasons why people not and improve resolve and enhance the ways we make our isk in an effective and timely manner. This reads like a left-wing political commentary. Pro illegal immigration (bots) because the legal citizens(players) don't want to do the work that the illegals are willing to do. Supply and demand will balance everything out. Illegals get deported, ore supply will drop causing prices to go up (and prices of everything else as well). Since ore prices are higher, it is now worthwhile for legal citizens to mine, which will increase supply and lower prices. Prices are going to bob around until they reach equilibrium. The Government (ccp) needs to enforce the laws they produce (ex: no bots) and let the market regulate itself. They are doing that and all legal citizens will benefit from it. If making money was easy and the funnest thing in the game, inflation would skyrocket, but just like in the real world, the fun comes from SPENDING the money:) Also, Sreegs rocks. But after years of living and thriving in EvE, how can you have the heart to deport bots into the horrific conditions of other games. They've really silently accepted as part of EvE for years, funding alliances and supercaps and shouldering the grunt work!!! Don't their long hours and monotonous work count for anything? How can you strip their accounts of all they have produced?? Do you not have a heart?
Amnesty program? They keep their earnings, pay a fine, learn Icelandic: the start of a path to citizenship. |
Chris Wheeler
Massively Motivated
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 18:49:00 -
[448] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
Which in Unix terms is equal to dev/null. Edit: actually no, it's more like starting a 100% RAM usage process in Windows 3.1. It gets done... eventually. They need to hire like 10 times as many employess to make it acceptably fast.
So quit mass unsubbing:) |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:01:00 -
[449] - Quote
saiy'an wrote:hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.
how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal?
Unless you got them using a purchase order for say 100 isk per unit then it shouldnt matter. What is interesting is that they are saying they are going to claw back the isk, if they are going to reverse transactions then that would be a bit odd for consumable or destroyed things.
Your question goes to show something simple, RMT'ers will use contracts and markets to wash the items that they move. If you have buy orders up for 1% of an items value and someone fills it and they happen to be an RMT'er then you might need to explain, as the DEV is not going to get into the fine details then we will not know for sure. I would say that normal day to day market transactions are 100% safe unless your orders are showing some serious sign's that your trying to wash product. Few of those orders get filled, and generally the guys who place those orders are known.
I will not pretend that there's a easy way to spot legit vs bot or legit vs rmt. The ingame mechanics allow for scamming, overselling and underselling. RMT'ers do sell ingame products now for a fraction of the real value (You can catch them from time to time) so I know it does go on. It will be down to a GM or DEV to figgure out if those orders were to wash product or if they were a legit type of scam.
In the old contract days I would place orders up that isk sellers would fill and then report them. When the contract system came along and they could do things "private" then the ability for me to steal their isk was removed.
Just buy from the market and dont worry about it. Bot minerals and RMT isk flows through the markets in so many ways that it is doubtful you can buy any manufactured product that doesnt have a tie to RMT or Bots.
I for one and all for getting rid of BOTS and RMT. I am also all for getting rid of CCP's manipulation of the PLEX consumption. I am also for game fixes that would help stop Bots and secure gameplay.
I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference. |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:17:00 -
[450] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference.
Nope. You and others like you with an agenda were asking loaded questions and in a lot of cases - while this may not apply to you directly - people were answering their own questions even though they didn't know what they were talking about or deliberately twisting the Dev's answers to suit their agenda and then using that as a stick to beat CCP with.
PAN |
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Dynamiittiukko
Galactic Grognards Gamblers and Gunmen The Polaris Syndicate
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:24:00 -
[451] - Quote
Free month by turning in a random bot/RMT? I like the sound of that.
Oh, talking about gyms, could CCP possibly consider the idea of striking a deal with some chain of gyms? I'd kinda like the idea of Get Fit 4 PLEX too.
.d |
HELIC0N ONE
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
196
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:03:00 -
[452] - Quote
Dynamiittiukko wrote:Oh, talking about gyms, could CCP possibly consider the idea of striking a deal with some chain of gyms? I'd kinda like the idea of a Get Fit 4 PLEX program too.
Plex for Sweat?
Flex for Plex?
|
Rivur'Tam
the united Negative Ten.
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:08:00 -
[453] - Quote
Thing is that you can buy a billion isk for $35 from ccp.
I heard in a eve song that a billion isk from www.buyisk.com was $56.98
So why anybody would rmt isk when ccp sells it for a lot less is beyond me,
They are tards why buy from a chinky farmer when you can do it legal from ccp.
i'm lost as to why risk and pay more. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire
^^ my sig was awesome that naugty spitfire stole it for himself true story
United Recruitment Director. |
FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
75
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:14:00 -
[454] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, Best Sreegs.
Also, Stillman is hawt. Successful "carebear" attitudes:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=37279 |
agrajag119
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:25:00 -
[455] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:
Was thinking the same earlier, posted 1 or 2 pages ago on this thread. Sometimes I just have "big" transactions happening when me and my friend get loot in DED sites and we split the value between us before we even sell the thing so as to have just 1 person worry about the market. Call me paranoid but some assurance from Sreegs that this doesn't result in a flag would be nice =)
Even the loot from a couple DED sites probably isn't nearly enough to get you flagged as a RMT *seller*, which is the only thing that will get an immediate ban. The worst that could happen would be getting the isk removed, which you can petition back. Yes, that would suck. I'd still rather run that risk than allow the rampant growth of RMT and bots. |
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
510
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:03:00 -
[456] - Quote
Rivur'Tam wrote:Thing is that you can buy a billion isk for $35 from ccp. I heard in a eve song that a billion isk from www.buyisk.com was $56.98 So why anybody would rmt isk when ccp sells it for a lot less is beyond me, your price information is either plain incorrect or horribly outdated (I heard that 1bn ISK sells for 250$ - back in 2007).
as long as you don't consider the risk of getting caught, RMT ISK is of course substantially cheaper than what you would pay to get the same amount through GTCs.
keeping track of RMT prices over time (and then comparing the data to PLEX prices and banwaves) might be an interesting little project. |
pashared
Harbingers of Khaos Cant Be Arzed
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:50:00 -
[457] - Quote
dont forget about isk washiing VIA: fake ganks.
anyways good job. im not the least bit worried about the market it will balance itself out. |
Khadann
First Legion La Division Bleue
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:17:00 -
[458] - Quote
Nice!
well done ccp!
Noob question: Is the inflation of the last weeks linked with all these bannings?
Are there expected concequences to the market? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
504
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:23:00 -
[459] - Quote
Khadann wrote:Nice!
well done ccp!
Noob question: Is the inflation of the last weeks linked with all these bannings?
Are there expected concequences to the market?
I have seen in system about 30% less bots in the last few days.
The effects might be visible in the coming weeks.
In the coming weeks we also have drones alloys being removed, this caused a big speculative surge. In the next soon mini expansion they announced complete tier 0 items (with BPO) removal from all the loot tables. Right now all those I know (and they are maaaaaany) are buying minerals like crazy. Prices are rising fast.
Plus we still have the ISK faucets pumping money in the system.
End result of all of this are prices going up. Prices going up don't necessarily mean inflation though, ISK faucets cause inflation but commodities prices are "just" globally shifting up in few shots. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Potamus Jenkins
The Lucky Bible Company
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:57:00 -
[460] - Quote
there's atleast one very upset botter in this post. maybe sreegs should take a look? |
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Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
459
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:18:00 -
[461] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:To clarify on the ETC question regarding Shattered Crystal and our other resellers from earlier. You may purchase 60 day ETCs from official resellers: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspxThose may then be converted for PLEX. They cannot be converted directly into isk. Only PLEX may be converted to isk. Actually, Sreegs is right. The GTC's sold on the forums will always be directly applied as time on the receiving account. Nice to see players flame devs for not knowing how things works when they actually do. Okay, GTC can not be sold for isk, Only ingame PLEX, I'll agree with ya... CCP needs to shut down secure GTC trading as it is a figment of my imagination. Yes you can sell a GTC for ISK on the forums using the secure GTC trading feature. However what the buyer receives isn't a GTC but 60 days of time added to their account. Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
825
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:07:00 -
[462] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote: as long as you don't consider the risk of getting caught, RMT ISK is of course substantially cheaper than what you would pay to get the same amount through GTCs.
This. Simple economics dictates that RMT ISK has to be cheaper then GTC/PLEX-sourced ISK to the consumer, otherwise the consumer will do the smart thing and just buy a GTC and turn it into PLEX (or buy PLEX directly from CCP). In fact, it has to be "much" cheaper (for varying amounts of "must") in order for the consumer to take the illegal route of RMT over the sanctioned and protected route of GTC/PLEX.
GTC/PLEX is a very smart move by CCP. It takes the wind out of the sails of the RMT'ers, who now have to sell their product at a discount and it provides a legal, sanctioned, can't-be-scammed method of exchanging GTCs / PLEX. (We'll ignore the "getting scammed after you receive the PLEX in-game issue. That's on the player's head for being dumber then the average bear.)
When you pay some dodgy RMT site money-for-ISK, there's no guarantee other then word-of-mouth or reputation (hahaha) that you'll actually get what you paid for. Heck, probably at least some of them will try and serve up a trojan infection while you visit so they can steal your login details and clean out your wallet.
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Selene D'Celeste
The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
322
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:30:00 -
[463] - Quote
Chribba wrote:This is an interesting topic and something that has been on my mind for years when it comes to my 3rd party business.
I have no way of knowing where ISK orginates from, and is also the reason why I don't ask because I would simply be lied to anyway. I however do practise caution and avoid assisting if I feel things are dodgy or I suspect RMT.
Another practise I take is to always try keep a record of buyer and seller and who ISK is being sent to.
For example ISK flows buyer->me->seller, rather than buyer->me->random alt created 2 days ago - that (I think) makes it easier for CCP to trace the flow as well, plus hopefully it keeps me out of trouble.
I also do report suspicious transfers as I don't wish to be banned myself and I do not support RMT. I do see the problems with loans that VV is talking about as that is a somewhat different thing compared to my 3rd party service.
I'd be happy to support CCP in any way I can and hope that they continue on discussing this with us should there be issues with how me and others provide services to help making it harder to RMT.
/c
Agreed! (Quoting so I don't have to paraphrase this since I'm typing too much below as is)
It hasn't been said particularly well in this thread, but I think most of the nervousness of players who have built something "unsupported" in the sandbox is that future methods for security or whatnot are going to trample over everyone in a "**** everyone who isn't using hard coded game features" way. I doubt this would happen in an extreme way, but most of the early replies in the thread did nothing to allay this concern, and plenty to aggravate it. Which is probably why there is so much in the way of OH GOD MY LOANS comments at this point.
Waiting until real scenarios exist and handling them and making policy off of those is fine if not a better way to deal with these situations than trying to guess beforehand. However, making comments to the effect of "our methods can do no wrong" or "there are no false positives" is not helpful, and are recognizable for the bluffs that they are. The very definition of a false positive is a mistaken classification. If the mistake is never recognized, the false positive is never identified, but it does not mean it does not exist.
Anyway, the security situation is complex, and there are going to be complex cases, as there have been complex cases before. Mistakes are made, it happens. Downplaying that comes off as indifference though, which is very, very bad. Any time a developer or someone in a position of power displays an attitude that can be taken as "there is no collateral damage / I don't care about collateral damage" that undermines said power and causes fear and distrust. It's not really security's problem that support isn't consistent with its handling of cases, but it needs to be CCP's problem. This just happens to be one of the first or only sane places where the fear of this problem can be expressed properly.
Please be aware of this.
As an aside, it looks like security has been stepped up a level, which is great, and I really like the effort put into getting feedback and reporting general information that has happened in the last week or so. Keep up the good work there.
Visit www.eohpoker.com and enjoy EVE's oldest ISK gaming service! |
Shanky McStabber
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:50:00 -
[464] - Quote
Shanky McStabber wrote:I have a question for Jersey Johnson. Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services? As per the CCP Want Ads forums: 5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service] CCP Spitfire Post
I just want an answer to my previous question. |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:03:00 -
[465] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
Which in Unix terms is equal to dev/null. Edit: actually no, it's more like starting a 100% RAM usage process in Windows 3.1. It gets done... eventually. They need to hire like 10 times as many employess to make it acceptably fast.
Nah, all they need to do is charging 50 mil ISK per bogus petition. Would clear the backlog somewhat beautiful.
Nice pedantism on the OS references by the way. I preferred the old peek and poke on a vic 20 and girls in the days of yore.. |
yunafan2004
Nox Noctis Industrius Novus Dominatum
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:09:00 -
[466] - Quote
As a little guy in the big fish pond I love this! It''s hard for em to compete in the market especially with mass botting and isk farming. I work my ass off for what i mine and it'd depressing when the hours you spend dont add up to spending the same time in a LVL4. It will be nice to see a change in the market. I also think it will make mining for newbs a bit more profitable aswell so they can have an easier time with starting out and losing ships as newbs do learning.
As for anyone worried about market prices....well I'd like to bring the free moon goo issue to your attention. "the bugged reactor" issue. That cause market issues for awhile but CCP stepped in and changed BPs for T2 ships to help with the loss of the high end moon goo. sure you can't buy an ishkur for 8-12m anymore but its not like its completely outragous either once people got use to the adjustment. I suspect that if there is an issue and things do get out of hand CCP will step in again and change some BPOs or something on the t1 items to adjust to the changes.
Again kudos to the devs on this one this has been a long time comming for those of us not in large alliences or that do things by the book. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
954
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:13:00 -
[467] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:I hate to be, THAT GUY, but what happen to me being able to use my little security code thing i got at LAST YEARS FANFEST.
Are you guys that ADHD?
July as per the presentation at fanfest. |
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
955
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:15:00 -
[468] - Quote
Krunzer Shakiel wrote:Does anyone know what is a reasonable time for a GM/CCP or someone to respond to a report BOT action issued in game. Its been 2 weeks since I've reported a blindly obvious Market BOT and nothing has happened? I realise there are bigger fish to fry and ( and are being fried) but trading is my main activity.
I've found since the initial BAN a few weeks ago the market bots are increasingly interfering with the market again...
My assumption is the Report Bot button is more of a feel good item, and/or requires multiple hits on the same toon to get any action (...personally I don't actually expect more from this feature, and god knows how many times it get used or misued a day)
One reason I'm pushing with this market bot to go in this thread is that it has an obvious signature which CCP don't seem to have on their autodetect rules (yet?) - I would hope Sreegs or someone wish to pursue this.
Reporting a bot does not insinuate immediate action or actually action at all. It does matter though. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
955
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:16:00 -
[469] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Allataria wrote:CCP really needs to look at the root of the issue which is making isk in game in any way is terribly boring. Ratting or mining or hauling or missioning. It doesn't matter how you make your money they are all incredibly dull. Interestingly enough, there is a POOP dealing with a variety of means to make ISK, INCLUDING NINJA SALVAGING. If you want a way to make ISK that includes all the fun of PVP, you really can't go past gankers officer-fit Tengus and CNRs in mission hubs. As for botters "being essential" GÇö bollocks! Bots are directly responsible for making mining and speculation low value activities.
Hey if you're the guy who makes that you might as well know that my threads aren't here for your advertisements so go away. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
955
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:23:00 -
[470] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:saiy'an wrote:hello i just read this devblog, am kinda confused is the only legit plex directly from CCP, does this mean the ones you can buy on the market (ingame) is illegal since the sellers may have bought them with RMT isk.
how are we to know if the plex we are buying from this market is legal? Unless you got them using a purchase order for say 100 isk per unit then it shouldnt matter. What is interesting is that they are saying they are going to claw back the isk, if they are going to reverse transactions then that would be a bit odd for consumable or destroyed things. Your question goes to show something simple, RMT'ers will use contracts and markets to wash the items that they move. If you have buy orders up for 1% of an items value and someone fills it and they happen to be an RMT'er then you might need to explain, as the DEV is not going to get into the fine details then we will not know for sure. I would say that normal day to day market transactions are 100% safe unless your orders are showing some serious sign's that your trying to wash product. Few of those orders get filled, and generally the guys who place those orders are known. I will not pretend that there's a easy way to spot legit vs bot or legit vs rmt. The ingame mechanics allow for scamming, overselling and underselling. RMT'ers do sell ingame products now for a fraction of the real value (You can catch them from time to time) so I know it does go on. It will be down to a GM or DEV to figgure out if those orders were to wash product or if they were a legit type of scam. In the old contract days I would place orders up that isk sellers would fill and then report them. When the contract system came along and they could do things "private" then the ability for me to steal their isk was removed. Just buy from the market and dont worry about it. Bot minerals and RMT isk flows through the markets in so many ways that it is doubtful you can buy any manufactured product that doesnt have a tie to RMT or Bots. I for one and all for getting rid of BOTS and RMT. I am also all for getting rid of CCP's manipulation of the PLEX consumption. I am also for game fixes that would help stop Bots and secure gameplay. I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference.
If I asked you nicely once to stop lying and you didn't listen what am I to do but ensure you're banned? (nothing is the answer)
Here's the difference. I have a question what is a butt? That's a question... I have a question 2000 pages of text ending in "so the market blah blah blah" is not a question. In short get out. |
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the stand
Catocalypse Meow ZOMBIE KITTY FORCE
5
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Posted - 2012.04.05 05:32:00 -
[471] - Quote
I foresee corporations pumping themselves full of alts and possibly inactive accounts if you guys allow it to make themselves hard to war dec. I also think the cost of declaring war on a corp should go in the opposite direction relative to the size of the corp / alliance. You don't want massive organizations to be capable of so easily harrassing smaller ones because it's cheap to do so. And a larger corp shouldn't have a difficult time protecting itself if wardec'd and so shouldn't cost as much to dec. Just my two cents. |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
211
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 06:41:00 -
[472] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Krunzer Shakiel wrote:Does anyone know what is a reasonable time for a GM/CCP or someone to respond to a report BOT action issued in game. Its been 2 weeks since I've reported a blindly obvious Market BOT and nothing has happened? I realise there are bigger fish to fry and ( and are being fried) but trading is my main activity.
I've found since the initial BAN a few weeks ago the market bots are increasingly interfering with the market again...
My assumption is the Report Bot button is more of a feel good item, and/or requires multiple hits on the same toon to get any action (...personally I don't actually expect more from this feature, and god knows how many times it get used or misued a day)
One reason I'm pushing with this market bot to go in this thread is that it has an obvious signature which CCP don't seem to have on their autodetect rules (yet?) - I would hope Sreegs or someone wish to pursue this.
Reporting a bot does not insinuate immediate action or actually action at all. It does matter though. If you are doing nothing against a bot I reported, why should I report them?
this one sentence is giving me the feeling, you dont care about bots at all and all you are doing is only PR...
I hope I'm wrong (or misunderstood you) and you are working on a "bot-free" Eve. DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Zulran Hans
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
1
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Posted - 2012.04.05 07:30:00 -
[473] - Quote
Hi Sreegs and CCP Security Team. Hope you read this
Just want you to know, as a new player, I appreciate your effort so much.
If I lose a fight to someone who flies an impressive/expensive ship, I want to actually be able to respect him I want to know heGÇÖs an intelligent guy who strategizes his game to get to that level
A scene where expensive ships piloted by cheaters get destroyed by wealthier cheaters might look pretty, but itGÇÖs worthless. TheyGÇÖre just lying to themselves. And the economy will be much better when you remove them too, all materials will slowly regain their real market value
Keep sharing with us your "killboard", i.e. how many cheaters get caught and removed from the game to discourage others who's considering cheating as an EVE career. So far the game is fun, thanks for making sure they donGÇÖt ruin it
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Pirmasis Sparagas
Final Fortress Happy Tree Fiends
3
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Posted - 2012.04.05 07:33:00 -
[474] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Krunzer Shakiel wrote:Does anyone know what is a reasonable time for a GM/CCP or someone to respond to a report BOT action issued in game. Its been 2 weeks since I've reported a blindly obvious Market BOT and nothing has happened? I realise there are bigger fish to fry and ( and are being fried) but trading is my main activity.
I've found since the initial BAN a few weeks ago the market bots are increasingly interfering with the market again...
My assumption is the Report Bot button is more of a feel good item, and/or requires multiple hits on the same toon to get any action (...personally I don't actually expect more from this feature, and god knows how many times it get used or misued a day)
One reason I'm pushing with this market bot to go in this thread is that it has an obvious signature which CCP don't seem to have on their autodetect rules (yet?) - I would hope Sreegs or someone wish to pursue this.
Reporting a bot does not insinuate immediate action or actually action at all. It does matter though. If you are doing nothing against a bot I reported, why should I report them? this one sentence is giving me the feeling, you dont care about bots at all and all you are doing is only PR... I hope I'm wrong (or misunderstood you) and you are working on a "bot-free" Eve.
Can I answer this question Sreeg? What he means, is first, they have to investigate, if he REALY IS a bot. If not - no actions taken. (because players will report false alerts on in game (or outside game) enemies. So you can't trust blindly, you have to investigate.
If I am incorect - please correct me (And don't ban me ) |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 08:02:00 -
[475] - Quote
Additionally, Sreegs is talking from his department, not the GM desk where bot-reports initially end up.
Not every bot-report is legit, and many "bot-hunters" can't actually spot a bot if it bit them on the nose. Even if confirmed, the report is only a datapoint, and may be used for further investigation. It may well be used for [number of reasons] which [have several reasons to delay action].
Obvious obfuscation for obvious reasons aside, the "report a bot" button is not an instaban button, but the start of a process which may or may not end up in the banning of a toon/account. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
504
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 08:53:00 -
[476] - Quote
Selene D'Celeste wrote:
Agreed! (Quoting so I don't have to paraphrase this since I'm typing too much below as is)
We apparently needed Chribba to post his concerns before multiple people found motivation to basically agree with what I am posting since the first day and only getting flames as a result.
Selene D'Celeste wrote: It hasn't been said particularly well in this thread, but I think most of the nervousness of players who have built something "unsupported" in the sandbox is that future methods for security or whatnot are going to trample over everyone in a "**** everyone who isn't using hard coded game features" way.
EvE greatest assets are its players, expecially those who find new ways to do stuff in the sandbox. At Fanfest and everywhere else EvE is flaunted as the "emergent gameplay" forge. EvE finance and meta-services are both ISK risky, emergent and EULA compliant (i.e it's not the same "emergent gameplay" shown at web-scrambling freighters and similar). Those meta-professions bring in a further dimension to the game, some of them can be done just by an handful of players who earned mass-respect over years of flawless records. Those players are completely reliant on their reputation, this is why a quick "ban first, eventually undo it 1 month later" politic will just ruin their years of efforts and leave a stain on them even once the penalty is lifted. Like in real life, the other players will just think: "he was guilty, he just got unbanned because he was important", "he was guilty but he has CCP connections" and so on. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
504
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 08:57:00 -
[477] - Quote
Grikath wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:[quote=Grikath]Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
Nice pedantism on the OS references by the way. I preferred the old peek and poke on a vic 20 and girls in the days of yore..
Vic 20 POKE 36869,255
C=64 A9 10 0D DC F0 FB EE 20 D0 4C 02 C0
That's the longest piece I recall by memory
There was Apple IIe too but it was too green screen to recall it's locations. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
211
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 09:21:00 -
[478] - Quote
Pirmasis Sparagas wrote: ..What he means, is first, they have to investigate, if he REALY IS a bot. If not - no actions taken. (because players will report false alerts on in game (or outside game) enemies. So you can't trust blindly, you have to investigate.
I really hope you are right and I misunderstood him...
and whatever i hope at least this part is 100% correct:
Pirmasis Sparagas wrote: ..., you have to investigate.
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
961
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:14:00 -
[479] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Krunzer Shakiel wrote:Does anyone know what is a reasonable time for a GM/CCP or someone to respond to a report BOT action issued in game. Its been 2 weeks since I've reported a blindly obvious Market BOT and nothing has happened? I realise there are bigger fish to fry and ( and are being fried) but trading is my main activity.
I've found since the initial BAN a few weeks ago the market bots are increasingly interfering with the market again...
My assumption is the Report Bot button is more of a feel good item, and/or requires multiple hits on the same toon to get any action (...personally I don't actually expect more from this feature, and god knows how many times it get used or misued a day)
One reason I'm pushing with this market bot to go in this thread is that it has an obvious signature which CCP don't seem to have on their autodetect rules (yet?) - I would hope Sreegs or someone wish to pursue this.
Reporting a bot does not insinuate immediate action or actually action at all. It does matter though. If you are doing nothing against a bot I reported, why should I report them? this one sentence is giving me the feeling, you dont care about bots at all and all you are doing is only PR... I hope I'm wrong (or misunderstood you) and you are working on a "bot-free" Eve.
What? Read the last part that I wrote. It's used. The simple act of you clicking a button doesn't mean instant gratification but the reports generated are used quite a bit. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
961
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:16:00 -
[480] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Selene D'Celeste wrote:
Agreed! (Quoting so I don't have to paraphrase this since I'm typing too much below as is)
We apparently needed Chribba to post his concerns before multiple people found motivation to basically agree with what I am posting since the first day and only getting flames as a result. Selene D'Celeste wrote: It hasn't been said particularly well in this thread, but I think most of the nervousness of players who have built something "unsupported" in the sandbox is that future methods for security or whatnot are going to trample over everyone in a "**** everyone who isn't using hard coded game features" way.
EvE greatest assets are its players, expecially those who find new ways to do stuff in the sandbox. At Fanfest and everywhere else EvE is flaunted as the "emergent gameplay" forge. EvE finance and meta-services are both ISK risky, emergent and EULA compliant (i.e it's not the same "emergent gameplay" shown at web-scrambling freighters and similar). Those meta-professions bring in a further dimension to the game, some of them can be done just by an handful of players who earned mass-respect over years of flawless records. Those players are completely reliant on their reputation, this is why a quick "ban first, eventually undo it 1 month later" politic will just ruin their years of efforts and leave a stain on them even once the penalty is lifted. Like in real life, the other players will just think: "he was guilty, he just got unbanned because he was important", "he was guilty but he has CCP connections" and so on.
Yeah you can post for the next year and I'm still not underwriting your profession or changing my methods because you posted a lot despite never having a problem. I think it's time you moved on. |
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Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:18:00 -
[481] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
have you ever tried to petition anything with a banned account? its rather tricky lol
Nothing stopping you opening a trial account and submitting a pertition that way.
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Vulcan23
New Eden Advanced Experiments
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:21:00 -
[482] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Selene D'Celeste wrote:
Agreed! (Quoting so I don't have to paraphrase this since I'm typing too much below as is)
We apparently needed Chribba to post his concerns before multiple people found motivation to basically agree with what I am posting since the first day and only getting flames as a result. Selene D'Celeste wrote: It hasn't been said particularly well in this thread, but I think most of the nervousness of players who have built something "unsupported" in the sandbox is that future methods for security or whatnot are going to trample over everyone in a "**** everyone who isn't using hard coded game features" way.
EvE greatest assets are its players, expecially those who find new ways to do stuff in the sandbox. At Fanfest and everywhere else EvE is flaunted as the "emergent gameplay" forge. EvE finance and meta-services are both ISK risky, emergent and EULA compliant (i.e it's not the same "emergent gameplay" shown at web-scrambling freighters and similar). Those meta-professions bring in a further dimension to the game, some of them can be done just by an handful of players who earned mass-respect over years of flawless records. Those players are completely reliant on their reputation, this is why a quick "ban first, eventually undo it 1 month later" politic will just ruin their years of efforts and leave a stain on them even once the penalty is lifted. Like in real life, the other players will just think: "he was guilty, he just got unbanned because he was important", "he was guilty but he has CCP connections" and so on. Yeah you can post for the next year and I'm still not underwriting your profession or changing my methods because you posted a lot despite never having a problem. I think it's time you moved on.
Your reading comprehension and customer-service-fu are weak my friend. Unfortunately, none of your posts on this issue have shown that you actually comprehend the issues that are being raised and your consistent focus on the idea of 'underwriting' a profession, when then is not at all what is at issue, suggests that you maybe need to think again, think more clearly, and drop the dev-goon act. It is really not good for business and paints your company in a lamentable light. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
961
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:28:00 -
[483] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Selene D'Celeste wrote:
Agreed! (Quoting so I don't have to paraphrase this since I'm typing too much below as is)
We apparently needed Chribba to post his concerns before multiple people found motivation to basically agree with what I am posting since the first day and only getting flames as a result. Selene D'Celeste wrote: It hasn't been said particularly well in this thread, but I think most of the nervousness of players who have built something "unsupported" in the sandbox is that future methods for security or whatnot are going to trample over everyone in a "**** everyone who isn't using hard coded game features" way.
EvE greatest assets are its players, expecially those who find new ways to do stuff in the sandbox. At Fanfest and everywhere else EvE is flaunted as the "emergent gameplay" forge. EvE finance and meta-services are both ISK risky, emergent and EULA compliant (i.e it's not the same "emergent gameplay" shown at web-scrambling freighters and similar). Those meta-professions bring in a further dimension to the game, some of them can be done just by an handful of players who earned mass-respect over years of flawless records. Those players are completely reliant on their reputation, this is why a quick "ban first, eventually undo it 1 month later" politic will just ruin their years of efforts and leave a stain on them even once the penalty is lifted. Like in real life, the other players will just think: "he was guilty, he just got unbanned because he was important", "he was guilty but he has CCP connections" and so on. Yeah you can post for the next year and I'm still not underwriting your profession or changing my methods because you posted a lot despite never having a problem. I think it's time you moved on. Your reading comprehension and customer-service-fu are weak my friend. Unfortunately, none of your posts on this issue have shown that you actually comprehend the issues that are being raised and your consistent focus on the idea of 'underwriting' a profession, when then is not at all what is at issue, suggests that you maybe need to think again, think more clearly, and drop the dev-goon act. It is really not good for business and paints your company in a lamentable light.
I'm sorry you don't agree with my stance on the issue but it's the stance and has been every single time I've had to answer the question. It's not changing because what you want is wrong and HAS NEVER EVER EVER HAPPENED. YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT NOTHING. If you could give me some indication how many times I need to say that before it finally sinks in then I'll just go ahead and make that many posts and get it over with.
:edit: In addition, yes it has been asked to underwrite it a number of times. Perhaps you think you're posting in a different thread or haven't actually read this one?
:edit2: Also, not in customer service |
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Vulcan23
New Eden Advanced Experiments
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:40:00 -
[484] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I'm sorry you don't agree with my stance on the issue but it's the stance and has been every single time I've had to answer the question. It's not changing because what you want is wrong and HAS NEVER EVER EVER HAPPENED. YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT NOTHING.
So, you ARE in fact willing to guarantee that it never WILL happen? Right? Otherwise your statement that people are concerned about nothing is meaningless. Or do you think it is impossible to be concerned about future events? Personally, those are the ones I do tend to get worried about as the stuff that has already happened can't really be helped.
Quote: If you could give me some indication how many times I need to say that before it finally sinks in then I'll just go ahead and make that many posts and get it over with.
23 naturally. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:47:00 -
[485] - Quote
I'm sure many people have legitimate concerns with this, but I'm also sure many people have illegitimate concerns and will be making noise to smokescreen their dubious acts.
Stick to your guns CCP and ride out the storm because at the end of the day, the game world will be a better place to play for all of us. It will be interesting to see if those who we've long suspected all along to be massive RMTers *cough* many Russians *cough* will be vindicated.
I look forward to the news updates! |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
961
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:47:00 -
[486] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:I'm sorry you don't agree with my stance on the issue but it's the stance and has been every single time I've had to answer the question. It's not changing because what you want is wrong and HAS NEVER EVER EVER HAPPENED. YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT NOTHING.
So, you ARE in fact willing to guarantee that it never WILL happen? Right? Otherwise your statement that people are concerned about nothing is meaningless. Or do you think it is impossible to be concerned about future events? Personally, those are the ones I do tend to get worried about as the stuff that has already happened can't really be helped. Quote: If you could give me some indication how many times I need to say that before it finally sinks in then I'll just go ahead and make that many posts and get it over with.
23 naturally.
I think I've given all the assurances I'm going to give on the matter in this thread and I find the repeated harping on niche topics which basically ignore what I've said to be an extremely disrespectful waste of my time. Read through the thread for your answer. |
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Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:48:00 -
[487] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Florestan Bronstein wrote: as long as you don't consider the risk of getting caught, RMT ISK is of course substantially cheaper than what you would pay to get the same amount through GTCs.
This. Simple economics dictates that RMT ISK has to be cheaper then GTC/PLEX-sourced ISK to the consumer, otherwise the consumer will do the smart thing and just buy a GTC and turn it into PLEX (or buy PLEX directly from CCP). In fact, it has to be "much" cheaper (for varying amounts of "must") in order for the consumer to take the illegal route of RMT over the sanctioned and protected route of GTC/PLEX. GTC/PLEX is a very smart move by CCP. It takes the wind out of the sails of the RMT'ers, who now have to sell their product at a discount and it provides a legal, sanctioned, can't-be-scammed method of exchanging GTCs / PLEX. (We'll ignore the "getting scammed after you receive the PLEX in-game issue. That's on the player's head for being dumber then the average bear.) When you pay some dodgy RMT site money-for-ISK, there's no guarantee other then word-of-mouth or reputation (hahaha) that you'll actually get what you paid for. Heck, probably at least some of them will try and serve up a trojan infection while you visit so they can steal your login details and clean out your wallet.
I had a friend on wow, who bought gold a few times from several sites and on at least 2 occasions she got royaly scammed, when said RMT sites failed to deliver and the thing is it's not like she could get the transaction reversed by her credit card companys due to then they'd contact blizzard etc etc ie hello ban hammer lol nevermind fact that several of the sites sent her AV software nuts with warnings about viruses and trojans trying to load from said sites.
so next time anyones tempted to buy isk from a RMT site consider this, they can scam you if you want and you'll be out of pocket irl with no way of reversing the transaction without risking being banned when your credit/debit card provider contacts CCP to check about it, and secondly your very liable to find viruses and trojans being loaded onto your PC via RMT sellers sites...
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
281
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:51:00 -
[488] - Quote
Pirmasis Sparagas wrote:Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
Reporting a bot does not insinuate immediate action or actually action at all. It does matter though.
If you are doing nothing against a bot I reported, why should I report them? this one sentence is giving me the feeling, you dont care about bots at all and all you are doing is only PR... I hope I'm wrong (or misunderstood you) and you are working on a "bot-free" Eve. Can I answer this question Sreeg? What he means, is first, they have to investigate, if he REALY IS a bot. If not - no actions taken. (because players will report false alerts on in game (or outside game) enemies. So you can't trust blindly, you have to investigate. If I am incorect - please correct me (And don't ban me )
Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Shanky McStabber
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:02:00 -
[489] - Quote
Shanky McStabber wrote:I have a question for Jersey Johnson. Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services? As per the CCP Want Ads forums: 5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service] CCP Spitfire Post
Still looking to hear something about this. I would like to make sure that trading Signatures/Vent/TS for isk isn't going to get someone flagged as it seems to me it could look suspiciously like RMT even if it is an "allowed" expenditure of isk.
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Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
212
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:03:00 -
[490] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote: Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Ok, lets put it in other words:
Let us assume I find a bot (a real one) and I report it. That will lead to: that Bot will go, soon (TM). (whatever soon means)?
DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
961
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:08:00 -
[491] - Quote
Shanky McStabber wrote:Shanky McStabber wrote:I have a question for Jersey Johnson. Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services? As per the CCP Want Ads forums: 5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service] CCP Spitfire Post Still looking to hear something about this. I would like to make sure that trading Signatures/Vent/TS for isk isn't going to get someone flagged as it seems to me it could look suspiciously like RMT even if it is an "allowed" expenditure of isk.
I've stated before that I do not support activities not supported by game mechanics. You can call them "loans". You can "rent out vent slots". You can sell pictures of loved ones....
I'm not going to guarantee services that are not explicitly written into the mechanics. If a false positive happens then let us know and we'll figure out how to deal with it. It hasn't. |
|
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
961
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:08:00 -
[492] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Ok, lets put it in other words: Let us assume I find a bot (a real one) and I report it. That will lead to: that Bot will go, soon (TM). (whatever soon means)?
The only answer we're going to give is in the post you quoted. :) |
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Shanky McStabber
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:16:00 -
[493] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Shanky McStabber wrote:Shanky McStabber wrote:I have a question for Jersey Johnson. Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services? As per the CCP Want Ads forums: 5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service] CCP Spitfire Post Still looking to hear something about this. I would like to make sure that trading Signatures/Vent/TS for isk isn't going to get someone flagged as it seems to me it could look suspiciously like RMT even if it is an "allowed" expenditure of isk. I've stated before that I do not support activities not supported by game mechanics. You can call them "loans". You can "rent out vent slots". You can sell pictures of loved ones.... I'm not going to guarantee services that are not explicitly written into the mechanics. If a false positive happens then let us know and we'll figure out how to deal with it. It hasn't.
That's cool. As long as you are aware that CCP GMs have stated that those kinds of transactions can be conducted and the official forums can even be used to promote/request these transactions.
I am cool with you burning every RMT'er to the ground, I just hope you don't manage to snag someone who are providing a service that CCP in the past has said is allowed to circumvent the "ISK FOR IN GAME ITEMS ONLY" model.
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Sofia Lamorghan
Edenists Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:16:00 -
[494] - Quote
Shanky McStabber wrote:I have a question for Jersey Johnson. Is your program able to tell the difference between RMT and Isk being traded for Eve Related Services? As per the CCP Want Ads forums: 5. Paying isk for out-of-game services that are related to EVE such as team speak servers or killboards is allowable and you should preface your thread with WTB [service] CCP Spitfire Post
If you are offering out-of-game services, the ISK will be transferred FROM a large number of customers TO your character(s)/corp. In RMT, the ISK would flow FROM the RMT trader's character(s)/corp TO a large number of customers. I'd be very surprised if any algorithm would incorrectly detect the former as RMT, and even if it did the difference should be pretty obvious when the flagged activity is reviewed by a human. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2998
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:16:00 -
[495] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:23 naturally. There's no such thing as the [23]. We do not talk about the [23]. Shhh.
/c
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
966
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:18:00 -
[496] - Quote
It's been a couple of days and I'm just answering the same rephrased questions from the same people at this point so I'm going to go ahead and call this thread a success, put a fork in it and ride off into the sunset. Enjoy! |
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Styrling
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:20:00 -
[497] - Quote
Yo last question before you lock this *****, how long is your petition queue from this still? I know you have undone some perma's already but other people are still waiting for a word. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
966
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:24:00 -
[498] - Quote
Styrling wrote:Yo last question before you lock this *****, how long is your petition queue from this still? I know you have undone some perma's already but other people are still waiting for a word.
I'm not a GM so I don't know. The ones I've gotten have either done something wrong or were already unbanned. (and they still did something wrong) |
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Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
212
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 12:11:00 -
[499] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Ok, lets put it in other words: Let us assume I find a bot (a real one) and I report it. That will lead to: that Bot will go, soon (TM). (whatever soon means)? The only answer we're going to give is in the post you quoted. :) ok, i take that for an "Yes" and say thank you for clarification *g* DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Par'Gellen
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:32:00 -
[500] - Quote
Sreegs dude... You talk a lot about respect and wasting time but avoid direct questions which only makes us ask them repeatedly thinking maybe you have a comprehension problem (*shrug* some people do). Don't get mad at us for hating "politically correct double-talk say-nothing" answers to real questions. To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
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Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:04:00 -
[501] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Ok, lets put it in other words: Let us assume I find a bot (a real one) and I report it. That will lead to: that Bot will go, soon (TM). (whatever soon means)? As someone who doesn't represent CCP in any way I can say what they can't:
Even if you are 100% sure you have flagged a real bot, you could still be wrong.
If it's just some guy with a clever multi-boxing setup (as I have seen done with effectively sticks and string before), it might look to you like a botting operation and be perfectly within the rules despite that.
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Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
212
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:15:00 -
[502] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Ok, lets put it in other words: Let us assume I find a bot (a real one) and I report it. That will lead to: that Bot will go, soon (TM). (whatever soon means)? As someone who doesn't represent CCP in any way I can say what they can't: Even if you are 100% sure you have flagged a real bot, you could still be wrong. If it's just some guy with a clever multi-boxing setup (as I have seen done with effectively sticks and string before), it might look to you like a botting operation and be perfectly within the rules despite that. You are 100% right, and that is the reason behind that . And I hoped everyone would understand that i mean: "That char is really a bot" and not "I belive it is a bot". Just for clarification...
Fakeedit: And I hope they only ban Bots where they are 100% certain. And I also hope they tread every "I'm a false positiv-Pedition" with a "that guy could be the 0.0001% exception to the rule" attitude and dopplecheck it... DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3277
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:17:00 -
[503] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Sreegs dude... You talk a lot about respect and wasting time but avoid direct questions which only makes us ask them repeatedly thinking maybe you have a comprehension problem (*shrug* some people do). Don't get mad at us for hating "politically-correct double-talk say-nothing" answers to real questions. Nobody is asking you to divulge secrets. We just want guarantees that innocent players won't fall into your scripts. If you think waiting weeks in a petition queue is in any way an answer to the issue then you are so wrong I can't even begin to explain it to you.
He answered the question like 10 damb times: "We'll evaluate each case if, as and when it happens".
Maybe you don't like that answer. That doesn't mean he's going to give you one you like better if you ask for the 11th time.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Vulcan23
New Eden Advanced Experiments
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:25:00 -
[504] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Par'Gellen wrote:Sreegs dude... You talk a lot about respect and wasting time but avoid direct questions which only makes us ask them repeatedly thinking maybe you have a comprehension problem (*shrug* some people do). Don't get mad at us for hating "politically-correct double-talk say-nothing" answers to real questions. Nobody is asking you to divulge secrets. We just want guarantees that innocent players won't fall into your scripts. If you think waiting weeks in a petition queue is in any way an answer to the issue then you are so wrong I can't even begin to explain it to you. He answered the question like 10 damb times: "We'll evaluate each case if, as and when it happens". Maybe you don't like that answer. That doesn't mean he's going to give you one you like better if you ask for the 11th time.
A mere combination of words does not a meaningful answer make. Especially when those words are presented in a context that suggests that the problems at issue were not properly understood in the first place, rendering empty answers even emptier. It also doesn't help that the 'answer' is surrounded by contradictory statements that at one moment state that there is literally nothing to worry about and then at the next moment state that the needs of a 'niche' playstyle (a niche playstyle! in MY sandbox?) will not affect the way he proceeds. So, it is really not surprising that people continue to ask for clarification in response to such a complex of empty phrases, contradictory statements, and expressions of a lack of concern for the issues at hand (which in any case seem not to have been properly understood). |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:31:00 -
[505] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:A mere combination of words does not a meaningful answer make. Especially when those words are presented in a context that suggests that the problems at issue were not properly understood in the first place, rendering empty answers even emptier. It also doesn't help that the 'answer' is surrounded by contradictory statements that at one moment state that there is literally nothing to worry about and then at the next moment state that the needs of a 'niche' playstyle (a niche playstyle! in MY sandbox?) will not affect the way he proceeds. So, it is really not surprising that people continue to ask for clarification in response to such a complex of empty phrases, contradictory statements, and expressions of a lack of concern for the issues at hand (which in any case seem not to have been properly understood).
No, Sreegs clearly stated that each case would be dealt with on an "if it happens, we'll look into it" basis before stating that it hasn't yet as far as he could tell.
But people like you just won't let it go because you want guarantees about your game style being "protected".
Give it a rest will you. The rate you're headed I wouldn't be surprised if war decs started coming your way some time soon.
PAN
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Par'Gellen
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:36:00 -
[506] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:A mere combination of words does not a meaningful answer make. Especially when those words are presented in a context that suggests that the problems at issue were not properly understood in the first place, rendering empty answers even emptier. It also doesn't help that the 'answer' is surrounded by contradictory statements that at one moment state that there is literally nothing to worry about and then at the next moment state that the needs of a 'niche' playstyle (a niche playstyle! in MY sandbox?) will not affect the way he proceeds. So, it is really not surprising that people continue to ask for clarification in response to such a complex of empty phrases, contradictory statements, and expressions of a lack of concern for the issues at hand (which in any case seem not to have been properly understood). ^ This!
I've read the entire thread and see nothing at all in any of Sreegs' answers that reassures me I won't get flagged for buying/selling something on the market from/to an RMT. One moment he is telling us it never happens then almost in the same breath telling us that when it happens (wait... what?) that the solution is to go sit in a petition queue for weeks. That is not an acceptable answer.
Also I'd like to point out that being a member of your company's customer service department has nothing at all to do with the basic level of courtesy and professionalism you should show while representing that company. Especially to customers. To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Sri Bolyn
Disciples of the Void
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:40:00 -
[507] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:DeODokktor wrote:[quote=saiy'an]
STUFF!!!!!
I dont think i'll ask this dev any more questions, as he asked me to stop spreading lies. Asking a question is not a lie, but he's a dev and I guess he doesnt understand the difference. If I asked you nicely once to stop lying and you didn't listen what am I to do? Here's the difference. I have a question what is a butt? That's a question... I have a question 2000 pages of text ending in "so the market blah blah blah" is not a question. In short get out.
Dear CCP Sreegs,
I think you are at your sexiest when you get a strident with the trolls. Never stop roasting!
Sincerely, Sri
p.s. I'm a man posting behind a female avatar. This might be a problem. Don't hate me, I just can't help myself... |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:43:00 -
[508] - Quote
Neo Agricola wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Neo Agricola wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: Additionally, I'd like to point out that while the bot might not disappear over night after being reported, it is really important that you guys keep reporting bots. I won't go into details why, but rest assured that it's something that you can do to help in the war on bots.
Ok, lets put it in other words: Let us assume I find a bot (a real one) and I report it. That will lead to: that Bot will go, soon (TM). (whatever soon means)? As someone who doesn't represent CCP in any way I can say what they can't: Even if you are 100% sure you have flagged a real bot, you could still be wrong. If it's just some guy with a clever multi-boxing setup (as I have seen done with effectively sticks and string before), it might look to you like a botting operation and be perfectly within the rules despite that. You are 100% right, and that is the reason behind that . And I hoped everyone would understand that i mean: "That char is really a bot" and not "I belive it is a bot". Just for clarification... Let's just say that all of the choice criteria I've seen for identifying a 'bot operation in-game are more likely to flag a perfectly legitimate multi-boxing operation.
Unless you are talking about a case where you were IRL shoulder surfing a fellow player, saw them botting that way, and reported them for it *you were probably wrong*.
And even if you were right, there are reasons (like an ongoing investigation to track down the members of an RMT operation) where a banning for a legitimately identified bot might be delayed for weeks. |
Vulcan23
New Eden Advanced Experiments
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:10:00 -
[509] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:
No, Sreegs clearly stated that each case would be dealt with on an "if it happens, we'll look into it" basis before stating that it hasn't yet as far as he could tell.
Which in no way answers the concerns that have been raised. That is a completely empty response with zero information content that offers no useful response to those who asked questions.
Quote: But people like you just won't let it go because you want guarantees about your game style being "protected".
Negative info would be just as useful.
Quote:Give it a rest will you. The rate you're headed I wouldn't be surprised if war decs started coming your way some time soon. PAN
Nothing would make me happier than fighting off wardecs from CCP fanboys defending the honour of a former goon developer who trolls customers with legitimate questions. The multi-layered ironies would be priceless. |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:31:00 -
[510] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:Which in no way answers the concerns that have been raised. That is a completely empty response with zero information content that offers no useful response to those who asked questions.
Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. That's your problem not the rest of the communities and we are, quiet frankly, getting sick of your whining.
Vulcan23 wrote:Negative info would be just as useful.
You've had the info you asked for, you're just too immature to accept the answer because it's not the answer you want.
Vulcan23 wrote:Nothing would make me happier than fighting off wardecs from CCP fanboys defending the honour of a former goon developer who trolls customers with legitimate questions. The multi-layered ironies would be priceless.
And there, in a nutshell, is all we need to know about you. Dismissing me as a "fanboy" while making snide remarks about Sreeg being a former Goon with the clear intention of dissing him and of being unimpartial without having the balls to come out and say it. Why else bring up Sreeg's being a former Goon?
And I am no fanboy. I despise the Goons - check my thread calling for their disbanding - and have criticised CCP when I felt they deserved it but am getting, quite frankly, sick of your incessant whining and refusal to accept the answer given to you while claiming you have had "no answer" because you haven't got the answer you want.
PAN
|
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Par'Gellen
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:50:00 -
[511] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. You are correct in a way because the answers Sreegs has given us are contradictory and sensless. Most people question such things. In several of his responses he may as well have said "Bing tiddle tiddle bong... Go away." To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:58:00 -
[512] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. You are correct in a way because the answers Sreegs has given us are contradictory and sensless. Most people question such things. In several of his responses he may as well have said "Bing tiddle tiddle bong... Go away."
Only because people like you refused to accept his answer of "we will deal with it when it happens if it happens" no matter how many times he said it.
PAN
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:02:00 -
[513] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. You are correct in a way because the answers Sreegs has given us are contradictory and sensless. Most people question such things. In several of his responses he may as well have said "Bing tiddle tiddle bong... Go away." People who will break the rules of a game will look for any edge of an exception they can use to justify their actions.
While you are probably not one of those people, the answer that would satisfy your curiosity would provide many of them with that sliver of an exception they could use to (at minimum) consume excess CCP customer support resources while trying to get away with it. |
Vulcan23
New Eden Advanced Experiments
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:07:00 -
[514] - Quote
Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:
And there, in a nutshell, is all we need to know about you. Dismissing me as a "fanboy" while making snide remarks about Sreeg being a former Goon with the clear intention of dissing him and of being unimpartial without having the balls to come out and say it. Why else bring up Sreeg's being a former Goon?
And I am no fanboy. I despise the Goons - check my thread calling for their disbanding - and have criticised CCP when I felt they deserved it but am getting, quite frankly, sick of your incessant whining and refusal to accept the answer given to you while claiming you have had "no answer" because you haven't got the answer you want.
PAN
If you think answers have been given as opposed to empty responses then you clearly don't understand the issues at hand and should stop 'contributing'.
Why bring up Sreegs being a goon? a) Because he is posting like a goon rather than like the representative of a company that takes the money of the people he is responding to in exchange for services. b) Because you are threatening wardecs in response to forum posting that is critical of him and that is deeply, deeply, deeply funny given his background. |
Par'Gellen
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:17:00 -
[515] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Par'Gellen wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. You are correct in a way because the answers Sreegs has given us are contradictory and sensless. Most people question such things. In several of his responses he may as well have said "Bing tiddle tiddle bong... Go away." People who will break the rules of a game will look for any edge of an exception they can use to justify their actions. While you are probably not one of those people, the answer that would satisfy your curiosity would provide many of them with that sliver of an exception they could use to (at minimum) consume excess CCP customer support resources while trying to get away with it. I understand that completely and that is actually a much better answer and makes me feel a lot better about the whole issue than anything Sreegs has said. Maybe he just got my hairs up due to his mouthfull-of-broken-glass style of customer interaction. To err is human, but it shouldn't be the company motto... |
Padme Amidala Naberrie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:21:00 -
[516] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:
And there, in a nutshell, is all we need to know about you. Dismissing me as a "fanboy" while making snide remarks about Sreeg being a former Goon with the clear intention of dissing him and of being unimpartial without having the balls to come out and say it. Why else bring up Sreeg's being a former Goon?
And I am no fanboy. I despise the Goons - check my thread calling for their disbanding - and have criticised CCP when I felt they deserved it but am getting, quite frankly, sick of your incessant whining and refusal to accept the answer given to you while claiming you have had "no answer" because you haven't got the answer you want.
PAN
If you think answers have been given as opposed to empty responses then you clearly don't understand the issues at hand and should stop 'contributing'. Why bring up Sreegs being a goon? a) Because he is posting like a goon rather than like the representative of a company that takes the money of the people he is responding to in exchange for services. b) Because you are threatening wardecs in response to forum posting that is critical of him and that is deeply, deeply, deeply funny given his background.
Sreegs was polite enough until people like you started going on and on and on and on and I am not threatening war decs because you are critical of him, just because I am sick of your whining.
PAN
|
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:51:00 -
[517] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Par'Gellen wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. You are correct in a way because the answers Sreegs has given us are contradictory and sensless. Most people question such things. In several of his responses he may as well have said "Bing tiddle tiddle bong... Go away." People who will break the rules of a game will look for any edge of an exception they can use to justify their actions. While you are probably not one of those people, the answer that would satisfy your curiosity would provide many of them with that sliver of an exception they could use to (at minimum) consume excess CCP customer support resources while trying to get away with it. I understand that completely and that is actually a much better answer and makes me feel a lot better about the whole issue than anything Sreegs has said. Maybe he just got my hairs up due to his mouthfull-of-broken-glass style of customer interaction. He attempted to communicate that early on, but he speaks "analyst" so it seems it wasn't as clear as it should have been. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:47:00 -
[518] - Quote
Grikath wrote:Sreegs has already stated that people who insist that they are "false positives" and get banned should use the normal petition route.
While obviously I can not post them here, I have seen what this route looks like and it is not pretty.... there is not much you can do against 'we have proof' over and over. But I am willing to believe that the system has been improved since then. |
Rivur'Tam
the united Negative Ten.
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 20:08:00 -
[519] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:Rivur'Tam wrote:Thing is that you can buy a billion isk for $35 from ccp. I heard in a eve song that a billion isk from www.buyisk.com was $56.98 So why anybody would rmt isk when ccp sells it for a lot less is beyond me, your price information is either plain incorrect or horribly outdated (I heard that 1bn ISK sells for 250$ - back in 2007). as long as you don't consider the risk of getting caught, RMT ISK is of course substantially cheaper than what you would pay to get the same amount through GTCs. keeping track of RMT prices over time (and then comparing the data to PLEX prices and banwaves) might be an interesting little project.
i head that in a song by curzon but after u said that i googled it and it seems a bil isk is 20$ from the farmers
so its ccp $35 chinky farmer $20
so it s a bit cheaper but considering risk in (i don't know what the chances are of getting caught )
i still think ccp is ypur best bet and plex prices rise all the time and ccp buy them from you instantly so i say is still stuiped unless the chances getting caught are 100 to 1 Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire
^^ my sig was awesome that naugty spitfire stole it for himself true story
United Recruitment Director. |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:42:00 -
[520] - Quote
Par'Gellen wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Par'Gellen wrote:Padme Amidala Naberrie wrote:Yes it does, you just can't accept the answer. You are correct in a way because the answers Sreegs has given us are contradictory and sensless. Most people question such things. In several of his responses he may as well have said "Bing tiddle tiddle bong... Go away." People who will break the rules of a game will look for any edge of an exception they can use to justify their actions. While you are probably not one of those people, the answer that would satisfy your curiosity would provide many of them with that sliver of an exception they could use to (at minimum) consume excess CCP customer support resources while trying to get away with it. I understand that completely and that is actually a much better answer and makes me feel a lot better about the whole issue than anything Sreegs has said. Maybe he just got my hairs up due to his mouthfull-of-broken-glass style of customer interaction.
Really Par'..... What surprises me is that you didn't get that one from the start..
Sreegs is a security analyst, not a customer support officer. His primary job is to Keep Things Safe, not play nice with forum pedants. One very important part of his job is not to give anything away about the way he Does Things when he has to interact with players, like in this thread. Which makes for..unsatisfactory answers.., especially for those who try to get details or answers to speculation.
As far as "flagging" is concerned, If you regularly deal with large amounts of ISK, either directly or as proxy, any form of analysis will flag you initially. Not necessarily because you have had interaction with RMT, but simply because your toon(s) come into contact with large amounts of ISK, which is what RMT is about to be "successful" in any way. Sreegs has obviously found a decent way to Do His VooDoo on that little dataset, and also obviously Other Info to get a picture of Whodunnit to have done a royal swing with the Banhammer with very little collateral damage as far as I can tell. (There's simply not enough screaming and moaning)
Assuming the positive side of Murphy's Law here: Yes, you probably have been flagged, as was Chribba and all the others who deal in large amounts of ISK. You obviously also are still here, are not screaming about Unfair Ban, and are able to fluff this thread, even after that Royal Swing, so you're "safe" , for a given value of [Safe].
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Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 22:02:00 -
[521] - Quote
Sreegs can't come to the furums right now but sent me an sms stating that he will give all you whiners immunity flags so you can continue your special snowflake activity with confidence. Now stfu already. That part is also part of his message. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 22:43:00 -
[522] - Quote
Go Sreegs Go!!
Allocate resources to FiS |
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 03:47:00 -
[523] - Quote
I would just like to put in my appreciation to the guys working on destroying the botters of New Eden. I cannot wait for all sorts of awesome graphs and numbers detailing the awesome destruction you are bringing upon the greater botter community.
Keep up the good work guys!!! |
zcar300
SERCO Group
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 04:41:00 -
[524] - Quote
You should totally make a special police force in EVE to represent these actions. It would be GMs roll playing a special concord task force designed to bring the characters of the cheaters to justice. They would be flying special fancy ships like the yacht. They would be kind of like the tv shows were the police all wear expensive suits and drive exotic cars.
So if you caught a cheater with a ton of plex you could have a couple of these celebrity police show up were that character last docked and then undock with the plex and the character in their cargo. And take them back to concord headquarters. They could stop outside the station and give a "press conference" with Eve News or New Eden Radio. lol |
SXYGeeK
Wrecking Shots Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 16:59:00 -
[525] - Quote
Vulcan23 wrote:A mere combination of words does not a meaningful answer make. Especially when those words are presented in a context that suggests that the problems at issue were not properly understood in the first place, rendering empty answers even emptier. It also doesn't help that the 'answer' is surrounded by contradictory statements that at one moment state that there is literally nothing to worry about and then at the next moment state that the needs of a 'niche' playstyle (a niche playstyle! in MY sandbox?) will not affect the way he proceeds. So, it is really not surprising that people continue to ask for clarification in response to such a complex of empty phrases, contradictory statements, and expressions of a lack of concern for the issues at hand (which in any case seem not to have been properly understood).
The concern that seems to be raised is.. We're worried that certain styles of game play that heavily involve meta gaming could be misconstrued as RMT activity and result in false positive bans. We wan't some explanation or assurance of how the security policies in place will avoid this.
To rephrase the answer (yet again) from Sreegs that has been repeated several times... Ultimately, it is not possible to ensure that false positives from situations like this will not occur. This is due to much of the meta gaming revolving around these game play styles does not exist within the game mechanics and is therefor out of the control of CCP. It is also due to the fact that sharing details about how the policy might avoid these situations would compromise the process. It has been stated that they do not believe they have caught any true false positives yet, but that there have been some bans reversed in certain situations where some other lesser infraction (illegal account transfer) may have cause a link to occur. An assurance that situation X or profession Y will be protected cannot be given because in doing this "underwriting" they would be declaring a potential loophole or safe haven for RMT activity. Because of the sensitive nature of the policy the only realistic assurance that can be give, has been given... "If situations like these occur they will be dealt with on a case by case basis, considering the merits of the individual situation"
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Mara Villoso
Big Box The Toy Box
65
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 17:23:00 -
[526] - Quote
Hmmm. Let's see. You're a little upset that you might get caught up in something as a result of your interactions with other players. You're concerned, because, hey, you trusted people and they might turn out to be bad. As a result, they may cause an incredible amount of damage to you, your corp, and your alliance; damage that you feel shouldn't be done because, hey, you trusted someone who turned out to be bad. Hmmm. Where have I heard this before? Where oh where? Oh yes, its an exact description of spies, corp thieves, traitors, and the like.
Welcome to eve mother****ers. Be careful who you trust. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1472
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 18:36:00 -
[527] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:Hmmm. Let's see. You're a little upset that you might get caught up in something as a result of your interactions with other players. You're concerned, because, hey, you trusted people and they might turn out to be bad. As a result, they may cause an incredible amount of damage to you, your corp, and your alliance; damage that you feel shouldn't be done because, hey, you trusted someone who turned out to be bad. Hmmm. Where have I heard this before? Where oh where? Oh yes, its an exact description of spies, corp thieves, traitors, and the like.
Welcome to eve mother****ers. Be careful who you trust. This is exactly why botters and ISK sellers should be flagged in game. At the very least, CEO's need to know this stuff as it can cause a lot of damage to the corp/alliance and players who associate with them. It is a very fine line indeed...but my opinion is simple. You break the rules, you forfeit your rights. This thread is not for that discussion though.
Good job Sreegs. You are not my favorite Dev unfortunately. Punkturis rules you all!
Just kidding! You guys are all awesome! Keep up the fantastic work! EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 21:51:00 -
[528] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
If I asked you nicely once to stop lying and you didn't listen what am I to do?
Here's the difference. I have a question what is a butt? That's a question... I have a question 2000 pages of text ending in "so the market blah blah blah" is not a question. In short get out.
If you want me to "Get out" then you can opt to request for me to receive a ban for the forum for either a short or long vacation. If you wish to be vindictive you could also request for me to receive a ban from the game itself. My question (not in the post you quoted) was not 2,000 pages long, nor was it a lie, it was a question!
A lie would be something like. "Devs instill everyone with confidence" "Devs have never been caught cheating" "Devs give useful answers to questions every time they are asked"
Also, I quit replying to you once you gave a semi-answer to the question. If too much text makes things difficult for you to cope with then we can make flow charts with pictures for you next time.
-Deo |
The D1ngo
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 23:44:00 -
[529] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:
If I asked you nicely once to stop lying and you didn't listen what am I to do?
Here's the difference. I have a question what is a butt? That's a question... I have a question 2000 pages of text ending in "so the market blah blah blah" is not a question. In short get out.
If you want me to "Get out" then you can opt to request for me to receive a ban for the forum for either a short or long vacation. If you wish to be vindictive you could also request for me to receive a ban from the game itself. My question (not in the post you quoted) was not 2,000 pages long, nor was it a lie, it was a question! A lie would be something like. "Devs instill everyone with confidence" "Devs have never been caught cheating" "Devs give useful answers to questions every time they are asked" Also, I quit replying to you once you gave a semi-answer to the question. If too much text makes things difficult for you to cope with then we can make flow charts with pictures for you next time. -Deo
!tuo teg |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
511
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 07:00:00 -
[530] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:Hmmm. Let's see. You're a little upset that you might get caught up in something as a result of your interactions with other players. You're concerned, because, hey, you trusted people and they might turn out to be bad. As a result, they may cause an incredible amount of damage to you, your corp, and your alliance; damage that you feel shouldn't be done because, hey, you trusted someone who turned out to be bad. Hmmm. Where have I heard this before? Where oh where? Oh yes, its an exact description of spies, corp thieves, traitors, and the like.
Welcome to eve mother****ers. Be careful who you trust.
Mittani's ban has proven that CCP can differentiate between being a douche in game and being out of game. Even with an ingame initiated EvEmail. RMTers screwing out of game other players (because having the accounts confiscated is a RL consequence) is an out of game action, even if it's initiated in game. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
202
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 01:19:00 -
[531] - Quote
To CCP Sreegs and the security team:
Great work - and I reallly do hope that the CCP beancounters appreciate it (Hint: if not, write an interoffice memo - stating how much RL money you guys are saving the company - and make sure it gets cc'ed to all the right folks).
And, more kudos for your amazing patience in responding to some rather unbelievably whiny posts in this thread.
To the whiners:
RMT = real life theft.
Get it through your skulls - this isn't metagaming. It is a RL crime. Knowingly buying or assisting in the trafficking of stolen goods is also a RL crime - and you can be prosecuted (yeah, even in China). Claiming that you unknowingly bought or assisted in the trafficking of stolen goods still means that all such goods and profits from such goods may be seized without any reimbursement or consideration. So, in short, yes, you are always personally culpable to some degree, whether your involvement was accidental or premeditated - and irregardless of the degrees of separation between you and the original thief (ask the major museums about this).
Botting = cheating.
Read the EULA. Then, read it again. If you cheat, you will be banned - temporary or permanent - up to CCP. If you benefit, directly or indirectly, from cheating, then the in-game assets acquired via cheating may be seized, without reimbursement. So, if your entire alliance gets spanked 'cause its titans and POSes were improperly paid for via botting - blame the players who were knowingly involved in cheating, not CCP.
Loans = not part of the game.
And, as such, operate within a dangerous grey area - as do any other out-of-game agreement to exchange ISK or goods. If you inadvertedly do business with a suspected RMTer or botter, then you may end up getting picked up, too. Works the same way in RL (loan money to a suspected con man and see what happens to you when he gets picked up). It is not CCP's responsibility to support , monitor or police every out-of-game activity which players choose to engage in. They, however, do indeed have a right to step in when such activity, such as loans to RMTers, are involved in taking away RL money which rightfully belongs to CCP, as the owners of Eve Online (no, the game does not actually belong to the players).
False positives = might happen.
No net is perfect - even the flawless US justice system fails, on occasion, and, once in a while, the innocent get persecuted. But, speculating on the infinite number of "what might happen if..." scenarios is not how you run a security system, or a justice system, for that matter. You set up rules & regulations, criteria for detecting and penalizing violations, and proceed accordingly, adjusting parameters along the way, as real - not theoretical - situations occur.
For protesting false accusations, the US courts have an appeal system and CCP has a petition system. Also, not perfect. But, if a country with 330M citizens and god-knows-how-many lawyers can't come up with a perfect system, then why would you expect more from CCP? |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 10:47:00 -
[532] - Quote
"retroactive to at LEAST February."
So will bans and hunting down include everything that has happened from february 2012 and on, or everything that happened before february 2012? |
DeODokktor
Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 23:36:00 -
[533] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote: RMT = real life theft.
Get it through your skulls - this isn't metagaming. It is a RL crime. Knowingly buying or assisting in the trafficking of stolen goods is also a RL crime - and you can be prosecuted (yeah, even in China). Claiming that you unknowingly bought or assisted in the trafficking of stolen goods still means that all such goods and profits from such goods may be seized without any reimbursement or consideration. So, in short, yes, you are always personally culpable to some degree, whether your involvement was accidental or premeditated - and irregardless of the degrees of separation between you and the original thief (ask the major museums about this).
RMT is not real life theft, nor is it "Illegal". Legally Liable and Illegal are two completly differnt things.
If RMT was illegal then CCP wouldnt take part (In selling time codes for ISK). If RMT was illegal then we would see sites selling gold/isk/virtual items shut down. If RMT was overly harmful and ccp could track down the users then they could seek finacial damages. A few games in the past have been destroyed by botting but other than Blizzard I am not sure any other company has taken legal action. |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
205
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 07:26:00 -
[534] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote: RMT is not real life theft, nor is it "Illegal". Legally Liable and Illegal are two completly differnt things.
With regards to Eve Online, yes, RMT is real life theft. The definitive issue is ownership - players do not actually "own" any of the assets in the game, incl. ships, ISK, modules, etc. All Eve Online game assets belong solely to CCP and therefore players have no legal right to profit from the selling of such items. Your subscription fee allows you to play the game, and that is all. Buying a GTC for real money from CCP and selling it as PLEX in game for ISK allows you to *use* such ISK in game - but, you still do not actually "own" ISK and are never given the right by CCP to sell it out-of-game.
DeODokktor wrote:If RMT was illegal then CCP wouldnt take part (In selling time codes for ISK). CCP is not doing anything illegal with regards to selling GTCs and allowing PLEX to be converted to ISK because they own the game. They can also license such rights to other vendors, if they so choose. You, as a player, and the RMTers do not have such rights.
DeODokktor wrote:If RMT was illegal then we would see sites selling gold/isk/virtual items shut down. If RMT was overly harmful and ccp could track down the users then they could seek finacial damages. A few games in the past have been destroyed by botting but other than Blizzard I am not sure any other company has taken legal action. In the game industry, RMT is well-known to be harmful (as you noted, several games have been destroyed by botting), but legal action has proven difficult - yet not impossible - due to the intangible nature of virtual items and virtual economies, and the difficulty of establishing quantitative proof of specific financial damages. Most past cases have been settled out of court, and I doubt that much legal precedence has been set as how to deal with such cases.
But, this does not make RMT all nice and legal - it simply means that the courts do not yet know how to deal with the problem and have made no definitive rulings as of yet. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 15:24:00 -
[535] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote: No net is perfect - even the flawless US justice system fails, on occasion, and, once in a while, the innocent get persecuted. But, speculating on the infinite number of "what might happen if..." scenarios is not how you run a security system, or a justice system, for that matter. You set up rules & regulations, criteria for detecting and penalizing violations, and proceed accordingly, adjusting parameters along the way, as real - not theoretical - situations occur.
For protesting false accusations, the US courts have an appeal system and CCP has a petition system. Also, not perfect. But, if a country with 330M citizens and god-knows-how-many lawyers can't come up with a perfect system, then why would you expect more from CCP?
Ahm, that is exactly how you run a justice system. The debate and draft process of laws includes a significant amount of 'what if' speculation because they (when not grand standing) generally want to try to hash out these problems before a law goes into effect.
The perceived problem with CCP's system is the same one you get in real systems, or at least a variation of it. They have the 'prosecutor' problem.. rewards based off positive rates without a corresponding cost for failing to weed out the false positives. This was esp apparent during Unholy Rage where big sexy numbers were the single most important result. CCP is behaving like elected officials, which is not all bad, BUT live systems have a combination of elected/political officials and 'professionals' that have a reward system that is different. There are also possible penalties for malicious prosecution along with transparency where people are allowed to refute the evidence against them.
At least in the past, while there was a petition system, you were not allowed to see any of the evidence against you, and CCP had no political motive for re-enabling people, esp if doing so impacted one of the 'big sexy numbers' (so people who were multiboxing were just as good of targets, politically, as botters).
And true, this is a hard problem, one that no government has solved in human history. This does not mean we can not call CCP to task for issues regarding it since we should generally strive to do better, not say 'well, no one is perfect, so we should just be happy'. |
Nervon
Yellow Fin
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:42:00 -
[536] - Quote
What to do with all that ISK???
Why not start a lottery
- EVE Mega Lotto
Buy numbers, weekly drawings and some lucky pilot can win ISK by the month or 1 payment... |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
139
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 19:55:00 -
[537] - Quote
This thread contains some of the stupidest people I've seen in EVE. That's a record, guys. Well done. *golfclap* Sreegs won't give you a straight answer BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.
You loan money to a dude. Dude steals your money and never pays back. Tough luck.
You loan money to a dude. Dude has bought RL money, or sells your money for RL money. He gets banzored. You're out of your money. Same thing. Tough luck.
Now, you've "loaned" this guy money for years and he's sold it for real life cash and gets caught doing it. Guess what? Sreegs isn't stupid. "Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:15:00 -
[538] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote: Ahm, that is exactly how you run a justice system. The debate and draft process of laws includes a significant amount of 'what if' speculation because they (when not grand standing) generally want to try to hash out these problems before a law goes into effect.
No, you might reasonbly expect it to work this way (I did once), but it does not.
The justice system is based entirely on case studies, attempting to apply past judgments to new cases. This same method is applied to creating new laws - which is why people often compare the process to "closing the barn after the horse has bolted". New laws are rarely created from scratch, in anticipation of addressing a future problem; they are most usually created as the result of a trial, or series of trials, in which there were no applicable case studies, and the judge(s) was forced to create a new precedent. The laws thus created are usually very specific and do not include any "what if" speculation.
As for bills which are discussed in Congress, that has very little to do with the justice system. Most of that nonsense is purely political, and few passed bills actually contain any real substance, due to the need for extensive compromise to please the lobbyists. The "what if" speculations are simply used as a tool to manipulate public opinion, accordingly.
For example, take a look at gun control in the US. The only gun control laws have been enacted via the justice system, and each of these laws were only enacted after a serious crime was committed (usually involving multiple deaths) and went to trial. None of these laws included "what if" speculations, and thus are continuously redefined as new precedents are created in court trials. And, of course, the US Congress has been completely unable to enact any sort of gun control law, since the original Bill of Rights and the Second Amendment, due to the power of the lobbyists.
Completely off topic, ofc, but fun to discuss. My apologies to everyone on the forum. :) |
YuuKnow
204
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 19:55:00 -
[539] - Quote
Here's a question.
What keeps botters from starting a new account when there old account is banned? Is their credit card information tagged as a banded card? Is their ISP recognized and then the ISP banned?
If not its just one more reason that all botters should be perma-banded after the 2nd insult as they will likely just be back anyway... |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
582
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 20:31:00 -
[540] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Here's a question.
What keeps botters from starting a new account when there old account is banned? Is their credit card information tagged as a banded card? Is their ISP recognized and then the ISP banned?
If not its just one more reason that all botters should be perma-banded after the 2nd insult as they will likely just be back anyway...
They do not need a credit card, just the ISK to buy a PLEX from their Bot ring friends. Also ISPs can be spoofed. What stops them is:
The time it takes to skill up the new pilot. That's a cost to business. The ISK removed when they get caught. That's another cost to business.
If CCP can make these two costs more than the profit, the botters will not bother to return.
Also, CCP does have ways of figuring out who owns new accounts. I just do not know how well they work.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:07:00 -
[541] - Quote
Situation:
I'm in my own corporation.
A (RL-)friend is in his own corporation.
I want to invest 2,000,000,000 ISK into his business.
It can be proven that these ISK are legit, either earned by me ingame or gained trough selling PLEX bought from CCP.
How do I transfer the money w/o being flagged by Team Security?
Transfer money? Contract money? Make a trial account, buy and redeem PLEX with that character, sell PLEX, join the corporation, transfer the money to the corp wallet, delete the character (really?)?
What about an option to buy shares?
Please forgive me if this question has been asked before - I didn't want to delve into 27 pages. Be angry, but please provide me with a link, thank you. |
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