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Zalathar
Minmatar Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:38:00 -
[1]
The muninn can be charitably described as a "niche large fleet medium range sniper" or uncharitably called the worst HAC in the game.
So what is wrong with it?
- It is essentially an expensive version of the rupture with additional problems. The rupture may arguably be the best tech 1 cruiser in the game, but this is partly because it is cheap, disposable, and does alot of damage. The general strategy is the platted auto cannon rupture, designed to kill an opponent before they get through its EHP.
The muninn could arguably fulfill this role, but it does not have enough advantages over the rupture to be worth the hideously large uninsureable pricetage. This is my test comparison munnin fit:
[Muninn, ruppy comparison] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II
425mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I
Hobgoblin II x5
This fit does 514 dps with my skills, inculding the drones. thats the dps of a dmage fitted thorax. it fits with AWU 3 and a PG implant, though you have to leave th last 2 highslots empty. It goes at 1457 m/s, and has cap for 1 min 34 seconds. 32K EHP give it a decent lifespan, but nothing altogether too impressive.
For comparison, heres the rupture fit:
[Rupture, test] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Domination EMP M [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I
Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4
does 100 dps less than the muninn, has 15 seconds less cap, moves at 28 m/s slower, and has 8K less EHP. It does not require a PG implantt, and makes up for not having a tracking bonus by having a longer falloff range due to the rigs. it is much cheaper than the muninn, and also insureable. Its larger drone bay allows it to pull a comparable amount of dps with guns 3 sizes smaller.
So, looking at these comparisons something seems to be wrong:
- the muninn has trouble fitting largest size guns and a plate, when its description puts it down as an artillery boat. If you fit 5 720mm howitzers on it it will leave you with under 200 PG to fit the rest of the ship with, if you then add missile lauchers it gets very tight.
- the misile launcher slots are 2 out of its 7 weapons, and they have no bonuses and are hard to fit in due to PG issues. It may have the most high slots of any HAC, but it has trouble doing anything with them.
- So the muninn suffers from the disease of many minmatar ships, made worse by a lusy tank and a high price tag. it has the tempests problem with 2 unbonuseed weapons, but will rarely have the PG to do something useful with them. You could of course downgrade the guns, but then you end up with worse DPS than tech 1.
So hwo could you fix this?
- my favourite option would be to give it more grid and 6 or 7 projectile slots, and bring its drone bay in line with that of the rupture (25 to 30). This would make it a low tank high gank HAC, a description that fits well with the heavy assault ship theme.
- replace the optimal range bonus with a falloff bonus, making it a long range autocannon platform, or give it another damage bonus to bring its dps up a little bit.
all helpful feedback and suggestions are welcome. ~~~~~~ *mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!"* ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge you soo pretty I think you're stunningly handsome and let me just say that you're wearing that dead parrot on your shoulder in a particularly dashing way today. -Hango Your using up all the space hango! - Timmeh |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:48:00 -
[2]
The munnin underperforms quiet clearly, i guess ccp takes so long to change this because its tough to balance it around artilleries and autocannons.
The difference of the pg use of Acs and Arties is huge, so when you give the ship enough pg to fit a proper arty setup you have an overpowered Ac boat.
I would keep the role as a sniping ship, and make try to make it better at it then it is currently.
First off, medium arties need a pg reduction, all medium minm. ships bar the hurricane have problems fitting arties.
With that change id give the munnin a lowslot and take one of the highs, give it a higher base lockrange and faster locktime, but take some of its sensor strength as a tradeoff.
With arties using less pg, another lowslot plus an highslot that isnt taking up pg when used the munnin hopefully has a place in gangs as a instant alpha damage ship and in fleets when sniping fitted.
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Boosters and PirateProfessions
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dojocan81
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Posted - 2008.10.31 13:58:00 -
[3]
a) replace the "optimal bonus" to a "falloff bonus"
b) the ability to fit 7 turrets instead of 5 turrets + 2 launcher
thats a AC gunboat ..
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:13:00 -
[4]
I like the idea of the Muninn as an artillery boat, but it definitely needs some help to do that effectively. I'd gladly give up one high slot for another low slot.
Making medium artillery easier to fit would be great for all Minmatar cruiser hulls. ------------
Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Selling Gallente, Minmatar and SoE faction goodies (including Virtue implants).
I am looking for a good 0.0 corp/alliance. Convo if interested. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:25:00 -
[5]
Go wild
special ability: 250% penalty to medium projectile turret rate of fire
50% increase in medium projectile turret damage per HAC level
alpha \o/
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sokratesz Go wild
special ability: 250% penalty to medium projectile turret rate of fire
50% increase in medium projectile turret damage per HAC level
alpha \o/
that ship would be soooo fun to fly
pew pew instapop pos
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:27:00 -
[7]
Turning the Munin into an AC boat is not the solution.
Reducing the fitting on Med. Arti - spacifically 720 Howi IIs - is also not the solution.
The problem with the Munin is not the ship, its the real reduction in the effectivness of arti-alpha and the script changes that make the Munin sub-par. Whats the solution?
Well, decreace the ROF but up the damage multiplyer so that alpha means something would be a good place to start. I think just a little tweaking in this single area will resserect the munin. -----------
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sokratesz Go wild
special ability: 250% penalty to medium projectile turret rate of fire
50% increase in medium projectile turret damage per HAC level
alpha \o/
this
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.10.31 14:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sokratesz Go wild
special ability: 250% penalty to medium projectile turret rate of fire
50% increase in medium projectile turret damage per HAC level
alpha \o/
brb trainin minnie cruiser V __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Triest
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.31 15:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Triest on 31/10/2008 15:38:31 So you guys would trade a ship that already does the least DPS of the HAC snipers for a ship that does less damage than a Moa. You end up doing three times the alpha of a beam Zealot, with almost 10 times the rate of fire. Great idea!
Current Muninn: 18.1 damage mod, 6.5 second ROF (all L5), 223 DPS with tremor.
Idiotic LoLAlpha Muninn: 27.2 damage mod, 22.75 second ROF, 95 DPS with tremor.
And that's best case, with T2 long range ammo. For comparison:
Beam Zealot: 9.0 damage mod, 2.5 second ROF, 290 DPS with aurora.
Moa (250mm rails): 6.6 damage mod, 3.5 second ROF, 110 damage mod with CN iron.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:12:00 -
[11]
dmg mod would be 39.82 but yes sir, keep on failing
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Triest
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:14:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Triest on 31/10/2008 16:15:56 Oh, I didn't notice the per HAC level, which is pretty silly on the other end of things. Yeah, they're not giving a cruiser the ability to deal 7000 damage salvos with quake, sorry.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:16:00 -
[13]
in fact i'd just love it and it would be very close to what the muninn is designed for. warp in, pop a support ship, warp out. repeat
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Nexus Kinnon
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:18:00 -
[14]
Muninn sucks, it needs help. Ridiculous bonuses aren't the answer.
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Zalathar
Minmatar Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: chrisss0r in fact i'd just love it and it would be very close to what the muninn is designed for. warp in, pop a support ship, warp out. repeat
Not sure it would be good from a gameplay mechanic, but for RP/backstory/minmatar fighting style purposes it would be win. Really fun to fly too ~~~~~~ *mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!"* ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge you soo pretty I think you're stunningly handsome and let me just say that you're wearing that dead parrot on your shoulder in a particularly dashing way today. -Hango Your using up all the space hango! - Timmeh |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Triest Edited by: Triest on 31/10/2008 16:15:56 Oh, I didn't notice the per HAC level, which is pretty silly on the other end of things. Yeah, they're not giving a cruiser the ability to deal 7000 damage salvos with quake, sorry.
Then try and contribute something instead of just saying nay nay nay?
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
@ Iceland from 3-11 til 8-11 |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:55:00 -
[17]
1 high to med 1 high to low
pleeeeeeease ?
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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.10.31 16:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: P'uck 1 high to med 1 high to low
pleeeeeeease ?
Overpowered. Muninn is fine. You just want to boost the ship now so it can be stupidly overpowered once ccp get to boosting arties. Aint happening.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:09:00 -
[19]
No ****, sherlock?
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Aquemini Amarr
Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Aquemini Amarr on 31/10/2008 17:21:26 Muninn is fine atm. It was better when the locus rigs didn't stack, but right now, it's not terrible.
I should say I mean that in a sniper fitting. Autocannon fitted Muninn sucks monkeyballs, but that is solely down to the crap armour resists more than anything else, which is offset by the lovely shield resists the vagabond has benefited from for so long.
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Cornette
Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:33:00 -
[21]
The first problem with the Muninn is that it can shoot further then it can lock with 2 range-scripted sensor boosters II when fitted with 720MM artys. Further I wouldn't mind a bit of boasting to its alpha-strike, but all minnie arty guns need that.
But other then that the ship fine and I don't want to see it turned into a armor tanking AC-boat. That would be as wrong as putting lasers back on the Sacrilege when the Zealot does it better.
The text below I posted in a earlier thread but it got mostly ignored, so I post it again just for reference.
Quote:
I don't get why people think the Muninn is the worst HAC around - after Deimos. I see them often enough in friendly and hostile gangs and it is a fun ship to fly.
Not isk effective compared to a Hurricane? Well duh, you don't fly every ship because of the isk factor, unless you are a cheapskate or poor. The ship excels at station/gate campings where you want a quick lock, and in lightning strikes on large targets where speed is essential to get in, kill, and get out before the cavalry comes to his rescue. A Hurricane, unless nano'ed, would be to slow and to quick to get tackled.
Anyone who doubt this that can just goggle for my alliance KB and look for it them self. I lost my Muninn last night to a hostile gang but thats because I screwed up selecting the wrong BM to warp to, got slowed down and then had a ceptor on my ass. Even if losing a Hurricane is cheaper I will still choose a Muninn any day of the week.
So why don't people like the Muninn - poor solo ship? You can solofit it but then I think you are better off in a Vaga. Still a few do solofit it (tackle-gear, armor tank and AC's) and if that is to their liking then the more power to them.
Zealot doing it better? Well duh again, not all of us want to fly the FOTM-race. If people would only fly zealots then it will soon end up on the nerfing-list. Beside CCP have nerfed minmatar so much already (not by actual choice but by introducing changes to the game) that one day they will have to boost the poor Minmatar and then it will be their turn in the sun Wink
We may have to wait a year or two but it will come...
Actually with current devs it might take longer then 2 years and in the meantime we might see a lot of weird **** happening to the EVE ships. The OP might even see his wish come true. But that would be a sad day for all that love to fly Arty-Muninns in gangs.
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Sila Fang
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:34:00 -
[22]
would have to disagree with "muninn is fine" its essentially a more expensive t1 cruiser with very few benefits. all other HACs outclass it. |
Triest
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.31 17:51:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Triest on 31/10/2008 17:53:01
Originally by: Sokratesz
Then try and contribute something instead of just saying nay nay nay?
There have been 'boost Muninn' threads going back over a year and a half, since the ship has always been extremely difficult to outfit. CCP responded by boosting the powergrid slightly, then went ahead and gave the two other 'sniper' HACs 25% more damage output. It's clear that CCP don't consider there to be any problems with the Muninn, so it's pointless to try and come up with bizarre bonus changes to do it; it'll be years before anything is done to fix it.
In any event, the obvious change to make is to move one of the useless high slots to a medium or low slot. With a 6/4/5 slot layout the following would be a standard sniping fit:
5 x 720mm Howitzer II
1 x 10mn MWD II 1 x Large Shield Extender II 2 x Sensor Booster II
3 x Gyrostabilizer II 2 x Tracking Enhancer II
1 x ACR (if necessary)
It's still going to be a worse sniper than a Zealot, but with the LSE it has a bit more survivability, so it has at least something going for it.
The other option is the 6/3/6 slot layout, which would probably go to a damage control or something, I guess. This is probably less of a boost, simply due to the excellent shield resistances on the Muninn. In any event, either of these changes would make the ship at least more competitive, and since no one uses the 2 spare highs anyway, it makes sense.
Giving it 6 or 7 turret slots aren't going to happen, that would only exacerbate the grid disparity between autocannon and artillery fits, and a falloff bonus would just make it a poor man's Vagabond.
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:08:00 -
[24]
The Muninn is a very poor close range brawler in comparison to any other HAC and the worst sniper out of the bunch as well.
The simple fact is it has worse DPS, worse tracking (despite a bonus) and worse effective total range (despite a bonus) than a Zealot. Comparisons with an Eagle are tricker, but the Eagle has the 200KM range trick up its sleeve which means it can always find a niche if you look hard enough.
The major reason it has all these problems is because of its poor slot layout. From a sniping perspective there is nothing of value that can be put in those last 2 high slots. 3 mid 5 low means you always have to compromise between range and damage. With insufficient PG for any Weapon rigs, and the mids being MWD and 2x SB you will only realistically be able to fit 5 weapon upgrades. Both the Eagle and Zealot can fit 6, and the Zealot can actually fit 6 plus 2 weapon rigs without any significant compromise, though post stacking change there will be little point.
With a 5/4/6 slot layout it would be the best artillery sniper it can. MWD plus 3 sensor boosters for fast lock even at range, 3 gyro, 3 TE. Even set like that it would still have shorter range, worse tracking and less dps than a Zealot, but it would at least have SOMETHING going for it. High alpha plus good scan res at range and no fitting compromise to achieve it would at least make it usable again, even if it still wouldnt ultimately be the best HAC sniper.
And as for close range, I still don't see it competing with other HAC's, but mebbe dual web, 3 slot buffer and 3 damage mods would be enough to at least make it worth considering compared to a Rupture or Cane, cos atm an AC fit Muninn is just a comedy kill mail.
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:08:00 -
[25]
Forgive me if i am wrong but wouldn't it make more sense to have the vaga with bonus' that make it a good arty boat able to dictate range with its speed advantage and have the Munin be a dual dmg bonus AC gankboat?
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: RedSplat Forgive me if i am wrong but wouldn't it make more sense to have the vaga with bonus' that make it a good arty boat able to dictate range with its speed advantage and have the Munin be a dual dmg bonus AC gankboat?
Ummmmmmm.
For a Sniper dictating range isnt what matters. Snipers start off in position (or try to) and do as much damage at that range as they possibly can as quickly as they can for as long as they can.
The fact that a Vaga cant actually fit a rack of 720 II's kinda locks it out of this role.
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:21:00 -
[27]
Edited by: RedSplat on 31/10/2008 22:22:38
Originally by: bldyannoyed
Originally by: RedSplat Forgive me if i am wrong but wouldn't it make more sense to have the vaga with bonus' that make it a good arty boat able to dictate range with its speed advantage and have the Munin be a dual dmg bonus AC gankboat?
Ummmmmmm.
For a Sniper dictating range isnt what matters. Snipers start off in position (or try to) and do as much damage at that range as they possibly can as quickly as they can for as long as they can.
The fact that a Vaga cant actually fit a rack of 720 II's kinda locks it out of this role.
You trying to tell me arty gets the same kind of ranges that other 'sniper' turret types do? I don't think it does. So getting into range is more important when your 'sniper' has a gimped weapons system yes?
I was trying to ask whether or not it would make more sense to have designed or to redesign the vaga as an arty platform and have the Munin as an AC gank n' tank boat- big brother of the Ruppy an all it looks rather dissapointing on paper and i've yet to see one used to great effect besides popping frigates and ****fit t1 cruisers.
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:25:00 -
[28]
The issue everyone has here is that the Muninn can't do ANYTHING.
The Vagabond is currently and (may) still continue to be an effective AC skirmish fighter.
What most of us would like to see is the Muninn being good at, well, anything tbh. Atm it's a purpoer built (but built badly) Artillery platform. Thats's good. The Minnie HAC lineup doesnt need 2 AC boats.
It would be nice if it was actually a good sniper though. And it isn't hard to achieve. It doesnt require the reworking of the Vagabond. It just needs to get rid of those ****ing useless utility high slots. It doesnt even need a PG boost. With AWU 5 5x720II and a 10MN MWD II fit fine.
It's just those bloody silly high slots.
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Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:28:00 -
[29]
I've just bought a munnin because I've never flown one before and I think it would be very useful in gang. Mainly while camping gates in 0.0 or camping war targets. I havn't had chance to use it yet in combat but from the stats I have from my skills and it being fully fit it looks down right scary.
Yea two spare high slots I can't do **** with...those should both be moved somewhere...maybe keep 1 for a cloak (optional)
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Appletwoc
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:34:00 -
[30]
I kind of like fitting 650s, a MWD, a medium neut, and a cloak on her. I likes my utility slots.
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