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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.31 18:44:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Akita T Heavily increased rewards is the necessary and sufficient change.
^^This is all you need
Gatecamps and otherwise will work themselves out if you make it worthwhile for carebears to operate in lowsec or alliance-held space
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The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.10.31 18:45:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Akita T Heavily increased rewards is the necessary and sufficient change.
^^This is all you need
Gatecamps and otherwise will work themselves out if you make it worthwhile for carebears to operate in lowsec or alliance-held space
It already is worthwhile. They don't go because they don't want to play that game. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.10.31 18:49:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Akita T on 31/10/2008 18:58:19
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr It already is worthwhile. They don't go because they don't want to play that game.
worthwhile (wvrth'hwīl', -wīl') adjective. "Sufficiently valuable or important to be worth one's time, effort, or interest".
Going by the definition of the word, no, it is not, not even close. Lowsec WAS blooming back in the day lowsec ore was twice as valuable as highsec ore, and LPs were exchangeable in significant quantities for far more than 1k ISK per LP. Now LPs are worth crap in LARGE quantities (good luck trying to convert 3 mil LP into more than 2 bil ISK in a reasonable timespan), and VELDSPAR is more valuable than most lowsec ores. Not at all surprising, lowsec is all but dead.
Going to lowsec is pure and simple MASOCHISM right now. You don't get noticeably better rewards, not nearly enough to compensate for the risks, so any SANE person will stay out of it. Increase the rewards enough, and some will get over the "carebearness" and try to make a living in lowsec, and past a certain population density point, people will flock in in even greater numbers even if the rewards get slightly reduced.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.10.31 18:51:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
It already is worthwhile. They don't go because they don't want to play that game.
It's not worthwhile in most alliance and lowsec space; but if you increase the rewards, some will take the risk of it even though they may not ever enjoy PvP _____________________
The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
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D'Insane Shatner
Gallente Shatner's Toupee
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Posted - 2008.10.31 18:52:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Becq Starforged Pirates want targets to move to lowsec so that they can take their stuff. I get that. What I don't get is why pirates are so utterly shocked by people not wanting to be targets.
Brilliant!
Best Sentence Ever! |
Daergaar
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:03:00 -
[96]
What point is there for someone like me to go into low sec?
My character is not even 3 months old, I have less than 3 million SP, I have only combat skills (and never want to mine), and I'm still in the nub corp.
I've already lost 1 Drake to a 20+ ship gate camp at the border between 0.4 and 0.5 space. It set me back almost 2 weeks in terms of the ISK it cost me to replace (I can't run L4).
I can only do 2 things, mission or rat for money. Why should I risk my 66 million ISK (after rigs/T2 modules and insurance) Drake for the CHANCE at getting some faction mod with the CHANCE of even getting it back into high-sec to sell it? If I lose even 2 of these ships, I would have a grand total of 1.2 million ISK left in my wallet, and I' be back to doing level 1 missions.
F that.
Maybe when my character has 30 million SP all in combat related skills I MIGHT venture out there as part of an alliance blob, but until then, no way.
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Cat Molina
Minmatar Psychotic Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:09:00 -
[97]
When I think of low-sec, I'm reminded of that Batman movie where the Joker responds to Harvy Dent's promise to make Gotham 'a place for decent people to live'.
"Decent people shouldn't live here. They'd be happier somewhere else."
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LadyOfWrath
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:15:00 -
[98]
Give me a single dead end system locked down by an alliance in a dead end constellation and I will happily go there, set up a huge market at reduced prices for surrounding alliance members, build capital ships 23/7 for the alliance, and mine the crap out of those asteroid belts.
For someone like myself who has a very very large supply of ISK my benefit in that single system to the entire alliance would be huge. Yes i would make a profit, yes alliance would get more PvP ship, yes alliance would get capital ships at very low costs, yes alliance members would be able to ask for any item they wanted in game, and yes I could supply it all.
Major hi sec industrialists are always looking for ways to increase their profits. Make it worth my while to give up T2 production for a better venture. Hell if any alliance out there even had a remote clue how a major industrial force could affect their war effort they would jump on this. Sadly fact of the matter is most of them don't care or are happy with the way they are doing things now. Any alliance who had an industrial arm the size of something like i have wouldn't even charge em anything to be there. most of the time they are just happy as hell to see all their members getting ships near empire prices. It eases logistics, it keeps their PvPers in the fight, and it allows a fee flowing market in their home systems.
Give me a home and I will build you an army.
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Miss Lear
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:16:00 -
[99]
Idea to link
I would love to see more interaction with NPCs
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Cat Molina
Minmatar Psychotic Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:18:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Daergaar What point is there for someone like me to go into low sec?
My character is not even 3 months old, I have less than 3 million SP, I have only combat skills (and never want to mine), and I'm still in the nub corp.
I've already lost 1 Drake to a 20+ ship gate camp at the border between 0.4 and 0.5 space. It set me back almost 2 weeks in terms of the ISK it cost me to replace (I can't run L4).
I can only do 2 things, mission or rat for money. Why should I risk my 66 million ISK (after rigs/T2 modules and insurance) Drake for the CHANCE at getting some faction mod with the CHANCE of even getting it back into high-sec to sell it? If I lose even 2 of these ships, I would have a grand total of 1.2 million ISK left in my wallet, and I' be back to doing level 1 missions.
F that.
Maybe when my character has 30 million SP all in combat related skills I MIGHT venture out there as part of an alliance blob, but until then, no way.
Sorry. You're new, and inexperienced and frustrated. I'd not call you a 'empire-living' pilot (which is what this thread is about).
What if I showed you a way to kill ships out there? What if I gave you a strategy where, even with low skills, you could destroy and loot the wrecks of ships sometimes more powerful than your own?
What if you lost the occasional ship... but it didn't cost much in the first place? And if you make 2 successful kills, you generally pay for your ship, fittings, and insurance for three more ships?
What if you found a way to make money while enjoying the thrill of combat? What if you didn't have to grind missions or mine asteroids?
What about then? Would it be worth it to go into low-sec?
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JAFA 17ZX
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:26:00 -
[101]
Originally by: LadyOfWrath Give me a single dead end system locked down by an alliance in a dead end constellation and I will happily go there, set up a huge market at reduced prices for surrounding alliance members, build capital ships 23/7 for the alliance, and mine the crap out of those asteroid belts.
For someone like myself who has a very very large supply of ISK my benefit in that single system to the entire alliance would be huge. Yes i would make a profit, yes alliance would get more PvP ship, yes alliance would get capital ships at very low costs, yes alliance members would be able to ask for any item they wanted in game, and yes I could supply it all.
Major hi sec industrialists are always looking for ways to increase their profits. Make it worth my while to give up T2 production for a better venture. Hell if any alliance out there even had a remote clue how a major industrial force could affect their war effort they would jump on this. Sadly fact of the matter is most of them don't care or are happy with the way they are doing things now. Any alliance who had an industrial arm the size of something like i have wouldn't even charge em anything to be there. most of the time they are just happy as hell to see all their members getting ships near empire prices. It eases logistics, it keeps their PvPers in the fight, and it allows a fee flowing market in their home systems.
Give me a home and I will build you an army.
Damn good idea but I already tried this. Pirates are too thick or too rich to think outside the box. They only want killmails.
Recruitment Thread
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Vietone
Gallente Mercury Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:30:00 -
[102]
The problem is the mentality that you shouldnt be flying what you cant afford to lose.
I find missions to be very fun and because of the ISK, LP and modules you can loot for upgrades towards your other ships. The standing increases are a big bonus as well.
What do you get in low sec? Less ISK, no LP for PvP and modules often suck because everyone uses T1 or low level named stuff. It's rare that you ever find loot from a ship thats well worth the effort to camp and pvp for hours on end.
What they need to do is make ships cheaper. Make it easier on the mind of players to lose them. Whats the point in going to low or null sec when the mentality is your going to lose ships. I have yet to find it worth while to take a ship worth more than 100 mil and therefore, I have never taken anything more than a battle cruiser which has been enough most of the time.
You have to factor in recovery time for losses. If it takes a fairly new player 2-3 months to build up skills and enough ISK to buy and fit a not so great battleship. Whats the point in taking it to PvP when you can use it for PvE and make more ISK. If they take it to PvP and lose it, thats more time they have to spend recovering from losses.
They should fix the insurance system in the game. Then maybe it might be worth taking 600-700mil ships out to PvP for more players.
Why should I risk losing hundreds of millions when its not nearly as risky as running missions.
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Cyonix Maur
Caldari IBF2
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:30:00 -
[103]
ive tried null sec mining with my hulk and a few others but when u get scramed and locked in place and then the idiots cyno in two Nyx that kinda puta you off the idea, that day we lost 3 hulks 2 BS and 2 crusers to them nyx and for the Record RAZOR aliance sucks a'ss for that.
Stop carrier/mother ships in null sec mabe us indi's may have some hope then.
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Lilly Miller
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:33:00 -
[104]
Originally by: JAFA 17ZX
Damn good idea but I already tried this. Pirates are too thick or too rich to think outside the box. They only want killmails.
Do away with kill mails. Make posting to kill boards a EULA violation. That would reduce that meta-gaming aspect of the game. Make the players play inside the game.
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Cat Molina
Minmatar Psychotic Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:37:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Vietone You have to factor in recovery time for losses. If it takes a fairly new player 2-3 months to build up skills and enough ISK to buy and fit a not so great battleship. Whats the point in taking it to PvP when you can use it for PvE and make more ISK. If they take it to PvP and lose it, thats more time they have to spend recovering from losses.
New players should not be flying battleships in low-sec PvP. They should learn to fight in cheaper craft.
Originally by: Vietone Why should I risk losing hundreds of millions when its not nearly as risky as running missions.
Don't.
But when you've run The Blockade or Angel's Extravaganza for the hundredth time, and you've more money than you know what to do with, and nothing's really interesting anymore, please do this:
Purchase 15 combat frigates and fittings, jump into a non-implanted clone, and go see how the other side lives. Low-sec is really not that dangerous if you know what you're doing. The catch-22 is that, to know what you're doing, you have to die a bit at first.
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Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:40:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Cyonix Maur ive tried null sec mining with my hulk and a few others but when u get scramed and locked in place and then the idiots cyno in two Nyx that kinda puta you off the idea, that day we lost 3 hulks 2 BS and 2 crusers to them nyx and for the Record RAZOR aliance sucks a'ss for that.
Stop carrier/mother ships in null sec mabe us indi's may have some hope then.
Bored capital pilots 4TL lol
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Renee Alexis
Gallente Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:41:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Cassandra Valieries No more gatecamps. Simple as that.
This. And blobs. Basically, all the mechanics that punish people for not joining a 0.0 mega alliance. But the second CCP nerfs blobcampwarfare is the second they all ragequit and take their alts which make 50% of the subscription base with them. And then CCP would QQ. So yeah...
What mechanics would make few ships better than many ships?
Actual implementation of multiple physics laws that would enable commonly used naval tactics throughout the history of naval warfare, such as the following:
You know a random, large, disorganized blob is just sitting out there in deep space. Recon has discovered their general layout of ships. You organize a small group to warp in with their broadsides all facing the bow of said blob. Therefore, you have more guns already at position than they do, ready to fire. In addition, when you fire, because you will be hitting them head on, the blast will travel from fore to aft of the ship and do inherently more damage than their counter-blasts to your well-armored broadsides.
Just an example. But this would take way too much time, effort, blood, tears, and money to implement...and I've never seen it implemented in anything short of independent war simulator games anyways.
But as has been said, the rewards must be increased significantly so that they outweigh the losses generated by trying to get said rewards. Right now it's simply not profitable enough to go into lowsec/nullsec. The chances of a big payoff to counteract the multiple losses of assets is simply not enough to influence folks to go down there. However, none of the people who don't want to risk lowsec or nullsec are loosing out on anything they don't already want. Rather, it's the denizens of lowsec and nullsec who desire more blood sprayed on their armor plating.
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Qordel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:55:00 -
[108]
More hugs in 0.0 would be nice.
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Tkar vonBiggendorf
Gallente Snake Eyes Inc Friend or Enemy
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:58:00 -
[109]
The news that the Skiff already has a +2 warp strength, and the future change to give this warp strength to deep space transports, just might make low-sec mining ops feasible.
I promise nothingÖ. --CCP Prism X |
Cat Molina
Minmatar Psychotic Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 19:59:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Renee Alexis However, none of the people who don't want to risk lowsec or nullsec are loosing out on anything they don't already want. Rather, it's the denizens of lowsec and nullsec who desire more blood sprayed on their armor plating.
I sense a lot of ingrained horror about low-sec in this thread.
It might stun people, but much of low-sec is pretty empty (gawd... Aridia is desolate). Not everyone in low-sec camps gates. Not all pirates call in a 20-man gang-bang for a single frigate target. I'd say most don't have access to capital ship hot-drops, and many who do probably don't use them. In the time I've been in low-sec, I've not once been smacked for either losing a ship or killing someone... only one pilot has failed to respond to 'Good fight' and that's because I erred and popped his pod to quickly (he eve-mailed his gf). I survive completely solo in the hottest low-sec spots I can find, and enjoy the challenge.
Miners don't belong out here. They're defenseless, and the ore sucks. You can change the ore, but it won't change their odds for survival.
Missioners belong out here only if they accept the rather large risk that they will be targeted. In other words: if they are tired of safe missions in Empire, and need to get their heart-rate up.
The only method of enticing more 'carebears' into low-sec is to remove the PvP element. Please don't do that. I'm having fun with it the way it is. Don't remove all risk from the game.
Stay in Empire and make money. Buy ships. Come to low-sec and enjoy PvP.
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Lunas Whisper
Minmatar House An'geles Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.10.31 20:00:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Blastil
Originally by: Jenny Superfood For the majority of players (not just the "carebears") to go into low-sec and 0.0 you need to do only one thing:
# To kick out every player that's already there. For good. Not just out of the regions, but out of the game entirely.
There is no incentive for many players to go into 0.0 because the players that are already there will do anything and everything in their power to keep the new players out. What's worse, due to in-game mechanics, the defenders have all the advantages.
This has very little to do with areas of Hi-Sec being overly lucrative, this is all about the current population of low-sec and 0.0 being the jerks that they are. Their in-game behaviour has both driven people out of these regions and is preventing people from going (back) into them. Now they're spamming the forums, whining over the fact that they have no one left to be jerks with, citing every conceivable reason under the sun except the truth: Their own behavior.
I'm seeing more and more of these posts and I'd like to put a direct stop to them- The idea of game mechanics is to afford everyone a slot in this game, and NOT kill someone else's playstyle. If I want to spend a night camping gates, sharing Mimes and making MONEY off camping gates, then I should be able to. As for corps and alliances being "Jerks" and having "all the advantages", I know of only a handfull of corps that would outridght reject you for being a bear, or a new player. I can list you a laundry list of alliances and corps that would take on a PVE or carebear in a moment so long as you put up a few dukes now and then and provided your services as a meat sheild for the occasionall alliance op.
Lets try and keep this productive instead of whine posts about 'OMG TEH GAME IS UNFAIR!'
This.
Not to mention that there are good reasons why alliance will kick out neutrals out of their controlled areas. It keeps their own industrialists safe and their systems safe. You never know whether that neutral is a scout for a roaming gang. United we stand, divided we fall. |
Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.10.31 20:04:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Tkar vonBiggendorf The news that the Skiff already has a +2 warp strength, and the future change to give this warp strength to deep space transports, just might make low-sec mining ops feasible.
First bored capital pilot who hot drops on mining op will result in ****ed off crying carebear post, and this will end fast.
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Zephyr Rengate
Caldari dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.10.31 20:15:00 -
[113]
No LP in high sec.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.10.31 20:17:00 -
[114]
How do you get carebears into 0.0? simple
The other day i made 15m mining for 1 hour in a retriever.
My m8 and i can make about 50 per hour with 2 hulks. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Kestrix
Gallente Advanced Capital Ship Designs Hephaestus Rising
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:03:00 -
[115]
Ok here is why I don't mine in low sec or 0.0 The mining ships that I have to use (Hulk) in order to mine the amounts of ore required simply are no good at all at PvP, and even if I do get away that's my mining interrupted. In high sec I can mine all but three mineral types and with lvl 4 missions I can make isk and get the three other types of minerals, not in high enough amounts for my production but with the isk earned and plenty of these three minerals on the market I can build every thing I need with little risk or interruption from other players pursuing their own play style. Now why would I make my life harder and reduce my profits by entering a high risk area to get minerals I already have easy access to?
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:13:00 -
[116]
Posted it over and over but I guess I can do it once more.
Only bounty as rewards for high sec missions.
Only loot for 0.0.
Both for low sec.
Casinos and Black Market in low and no-sec only. Anything 'loot' needs to be sold at a black market bazaar.
Problem solved. CCP you can wire me my usual consultant fee.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.31 22:35:00 -
[117]
You wont make casual carebears go lowsec or nullsec.
But you can make them quit.
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Dmian
Gallente Gallenterrorisme
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Posted - 2008.10.31 23:08:00 -
[118]
Well if my carebear experience could be of any help...
I believe that Blastil is talking to the carebears like me who really desire to move to 0.0 someday, and not the type who are perfectly confortable in Empire.
I, like the carebear I am, think that the game is mostly OK as it is. I have to agree with what other people say that I don't like to be the puppet of pirates, and you have to agree that an industrialist player alone is no more than a pirate toy in low-sec (and maybe in null-sec too.) But that's not entirely bad to begin with. It's just that it takes some time to lear how to deal with the situation. And the blockade runners seem like a great idea.
About risk-reward, I think that the players right now with more reward and less risk are low-sec pirates. Any solo player (industrialist, mission runners or completely new players) are in disadvantage and will face the consequences if they dare to enter low-sec, which right now is the playground of these pirates. So trying to force mission runners there simply won't work. They'll (we'll) stay in high-sec doing lvl 3 mission if necessary before making ourselves the toy of some pirate gang that is clearly in advantage.
0.0 Eve in nothing like the Wild West. The Wild West was a lonely place and the people were promised lands if they dared to go there. But the 0.0 lands are already taken, so unless you get in an alliance, it's difficult to make a living in 0.0 And there's no "gold" attractive enough, not free rivers to get it from in 0.0 either. No place to go, or at least that's the impression you get from our secure Empire.
The biggest problem of the game right now, I believe, is communication. I want to move to 0.0 but I don't have the slightest idea if an industrialist player like me is needed there, or what can I do there, or how to get there. It's more of a human resources problem than a risk-reward problem. Luckily certificates will help a lot in this regard. It will help corps in 0.0 recruit new people. But from the carebear who wants to have the 0.0 experience more help is needed.
Who wants a player like me? What I'll need to do there? What could be my role? What skills will I need to go there?
Alliances are perceived (or at least I perceive them) as closed clubs where a non PvP player is not needed at all. That's not true at all, but that's the impression they project. Massive fights! Big ships! Titans! Nobody explains how those titants are made, or how they get those wonderful ships. From the outside it looks like all fight, fight!, FIGHT!
So, I believe that there's a need to explain that maybe a miner, or an industrialist, or a merchant are needed in low-sec and 0.0 too. That's there a place for us. And that we will need this or that certificate to get into an alliance. To put it simply: to open the "club" a little.
I believe that will make "carebears" go into 0.0 It's not the risk, or the reward. Because we are already getting the reward in Empire. And the risk is GREAT! (My best moment in this game was when I was transporting some goods and a small gang tried to scramble me, my heart started to pump, my adrenaline flowed and it felt just as WOW!)
But this is just my humble opinion. ----
Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.31 23:33:00 -
[119]
Personally I like that people who do not think they can cut it stay out of low sec and leave it to those that can.
Why exactly do we need more players to got to low sec? Or maybe the correct question is, why do you want more players to go to low sec? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Alt Sauce
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Posted - 2008.10.31 23:40:00 -
[120]
It's simple. You need more reward in low secs.
It has nothing to do with PvP/Gatecamping/Griefing mechanics. If the price is right, industrialists will hire merc watchdogs to guard them while they mine.
It's all about the money, which is currently lacking in low sec. __________________________________________________ We're no strangers to love. You know the rules, and so do I. __________________________________________________ |
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