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Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
257
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
160
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Somebody can't afford his own plex. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
229
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go!
You could get a job and benefit from selling at times aswel.
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Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
257
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex.
I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
257
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! You could get a job and benefit from selling at times aswel.
Nope, spending real money for fake money is pointless. Also unfair to those playing the game. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
229
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:
Nope, spending real money for fake money is pointless. Also unfair to those playing the game.
What's unfair about it? I never read anywhere that converting GTC to Plex and alternativly selling Plex was only allowed for certain players. It would be unfair if the Plex sale was only for certain individuals.
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Vanir Tsero
Critical Mass Inc. Pinked
48
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Posted - 2012.04.04 19:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :( |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
181
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:
I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it.
I pay for my account like a 'good' subscriber as well. I also pay for several other peoples account who otherwise may or may not be able to play a game due to their own tight budget. They thank me by paying me in isk. The company gets paid, I get paid, and somebody gets to play. Sounds like the triangle of win to me. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2988
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Actually the day PLEX is removed is probably the day I will stop playing (except on maybe one account).
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Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :(
Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W.
End of story.
Feel free to argue little boy - mere words will not spare you from being wrong and dumb. |
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Dusenman
Black Lance RAZOR Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Actually the day PLEX is removed is probably the day I will stop playing (except on maybe one account).
Hmmmmm I don't pay for my accounts with PLEX, but it would be interesting to see how it would effect the game. There is a large number of people that play simply to pay for the game. So the amount of people in game may drop from such an event. GM Homonoia: In other words; feel free to use the tactic, but don't be an utter and total ***. |
Slime Slurper
Miserable Gits
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex. I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it.
Preach it!
If I was to buy PLEX, I would feel I was cheating my toon. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
181
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Slime Slurper wrote:Aranakas wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex. I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it. Preach it! If I was to buy PLEX, I would feel I was cheating my toon.
How would you feel you are cheating your toon? |
Slime Slurper
Miserable Gits
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:Slime Slurper wrote:Aranakas wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex. I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it. Preach it! If I was to buy PLEX, I would feel I was cheating my toon. How would you feel you are cheating your toon?
My toon worked hard for his Isk. To just take it away is wrong for the poor dude. He'd probably sue me for racism or something. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
lol all the botters and RMTers?
But Goons are still here *shock*
Ravan Hekki: "Well done CCP. Banned tears the best sort of tears." especially Goon tears
|
AureoBroker
Natural Inventions Solyaris Chtonium
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
ISK does not garauntee "Win". PLEX-selling ISK is not different than normal-earned ISK. And earning ISK is a competitive challenge (can be, though), it's just time-consuming. The day CCP sells something that can't be attained through ingame methods in any way, that's P2W. We could even draw the line onto "Not produce-able in game, better than it's normal correspective" and still sellable on market (That giving an effective advantage would depend on the players - if the $$-bought thing is readily avaiable, then who cares where it spawns; if it's hilariously costly, AND has no do-good on the economy, perhaps...)
PLEX is just a way to trade one's money into another's time. And both sides are happy enough to keep the agreement.
Also, ISK is not power. It's not like MD united could blow ten trillions and gain control of a meangingful portion of 0.0. In another game, you call someone in the best avaiable gear (not righfully earned) going around PVPing a cheater. in EVE, you call someone going around in Officier gear and Vindicator, doing small-scale pvp.. a pinata. With a giant "shoot me for goodies" painted on it.
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Kohiko Sun
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Nope, spending real money for fake money is pointless.
Aranakas wrote:I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it. Psst! Paying a subscription is spending real money to make fake money. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
181
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Slime Slurper wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote:Slime Slurper wrote:Aranakas wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex. I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it. Preach it! If I was to buy PLEX, I would feel I was cheating my toon. How would you feel you are cheating your toon? My toon worked hard for his Isk. To just take it away is wrong for the poor dude. He'd probably sue me for racism or something.
And a plex is simply another commodity for some people. As I said, some people out there may live on a pretty tight budget in RL, but suppose they do quite well at the market games. Would they really miss the 485 mil. Most people have already summarized that this can be earn in 20 hours or less which is only a half a work week by normal standards. This means that the rest of the months expenses go straight to the player. You obviously do not have a need to by a plex, but suppose you received several bills, say maybe to a medical issue, that would cause you to give up some luxuries. Would you simply give up the game then even though you still the option to play it? |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
229
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote: Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W.
End of story.
Feel free to argue little boy - mere words will not spare you from being wrong and dumb.
Want to talk about worse? It's even worse that there are people who think that others who sell plex are paying to win.
There is no WIN in EVE. You don't see anywhere "GAME OVER".
Anything available in game is just as available to the one farming his ISk as for the one selling plex. Just that the one selling plex makes his life a tad easier ingame than those willing to grind or struggle to get onwards.
People like you throwing up tantrums about how unfair it is and howmuch P2W it is come over as little jealous kids because "whaaawhaaa, my neighbour has the red tricycle and I only this old skateboard"
You chose to not sell plex, fine. It is in the end YOUR choice to not do so. Don't try to justify your personal choice by attacking other people's legal choice in the game to make Isk. In the end it makes you sound petty and cheap. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1159
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
PLEX is not pay to win.
It's pay to skip working for the ISK to buy that titan. It's pay to buy a titan pilot to fly it. It's pay to fill your wallet while doing nothing. It's pay in lieu of grind.
I guess we're all fine with that except me.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5917
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. Yeah, no. That's not P2W for the simple reason that you're not buying any "win" GÇö you're trading the exact same things that everyone else already have. That's, at best, RMT or just plain old MT (but not really, since you're not converting money to items).
So yes, it's pretty stupid when people make up their own ad-hoc definitions of things. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Plex isn't pay to win. A Plex bought Adaddon, a mission grind Abaddon both die just as easy. Plex is pay to lose. |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :( Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments. Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. End of story. Feel free to argue little boy - mere words will not spare you from being wrong and dumb.
Yoiu're an idiot and wrong,
Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
And I thought I started bad threads. EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
161
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:And I thought I started bad threads.
Your bad threads are still just as bad as somebody who pays to have a bad thread made. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
Dalmont Delantee
The Black Legionnares BLACK-MARK
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Killer Gandry wrote:Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! You could get a job and benefit from selling at times aswel. Nope, spending real money for fake money is pointless. Also unfair to those playing the game.
ROFL someone doesn't realise that the isk that you get from selling a plex is money from someone who's worked for it....you are just swapping that item for isk.
Bit like getting an officer item and selling it *sighs*
But then people don't actually care about how things work, they just get stupid. |
Prince Kobol
509
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Plex never has been, and currently is not in anyway P2W.
You purchase 10 Plex and sell them all in game.
You now have say 5bil isk.
So what?
What kind of advantage does give you over other players?
Can you get some special ship that no other player who hasn't purchase plex can get?
Do you get access to agents that somebody who hasn't purchased a plex can get?
The only difference between you and somebody who has not purchase plex is that they are the price of those plex better of financially in rl.
P2W is when by spending rl money you are able to acquire an item, usually better, then what other players are able to get in game.
So for a quick example..
In game item..
Sword of Doom - Gives 250 ICPR, 250 Morale, +10% Melee Damage
P2W item only available in a store for $25
Sword of Ultimate Pwnage - Gives 500 ICPR, 500 Morale, +20% Melee Damage, +10% Block Defence, +10% on all resists.
That is P2W...
|
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. Yeah, no. That's not P2W for the simple reason that you're not buying any "win" GÇö you're trading the exact same things that everyone else already have. That's, at best, RMT or just plain old MT (but not really, since you're not converting money to items). So yes, it's pretty stupid when people make up their own ad-hoc definitions of things.
Except there's just one problem: you're wrong.
The first argument was: "It's not P2W because you don't actually buy the items themselves." This was debunked by explaining how you are - you're just using a middleman. Adding layers of complexity to the transaction does not change the fact that it's P2W.
Now the argument is: "It's not P2W because you can only buy items available to everyone else in the game." But... that's exactly what P2W is. Buying items in the game with real life money. Whether those items are available to other players or not has no bearing on what P2W is; this is just another "made up definition". And actually in most games that offer P2W options ("item shops") you'll notice that the items in the shop are the very same items that can be gained via gameplay by everyone else. P2W offers a shortcut; instead of working for what you have in the game, you just pay for it. Hence, "pay to win".
Here's a good way to determine if something is pay to win. Ask yourself "By spending this (real life) money on the game, will I gain an advantage over a player who didn't spend (real life) money on the game in this manner?" If the answer is "yes", then you've payed to win.
It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass.
:) |
Steel Wraith
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
I submit to you the following:
Pay to Win: - Handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold/isk/whatever.
Pay for Plex: - Some guy grinds missions/incrusions/whatever for isk. - You hand the developers $$ and receive plex. - Some guy passes grinded isk to you and receives plex. - Some guy spends plex for another month of play, thus keeping his own $$ in his pocket.
Net ISK gains: None. Or a small -isk to tax. Net $$ gains: None.
Where is the Pay to Win? It's still play to win, it's just that some other player is doing the playing.
All it does is shift who pays the subscription, and encourage people to open more accounts.
Edit: Also lolMonocles |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
183
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
i.e. We're outsourcing |
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Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Steel Wraith wrote:I submit to you the following:
Pay to Win: - Handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold/isk/whatever.
Pay for Plex: - Some guy grinds missions/incrusions/whatever for isk. - You hand the developers $$ and receive plex. - Some guy passes grinded isk to you and receives plex. - Some guy spends plex for another month of play, thus keeping his own $$ in his pocket.
Net ISK gains: None. Or a small -isk to tax. Net $$ gains: None.
Where is the Pay to Win? It's still play to win, it's just that some other player is doing the playing.
All it does is shift who pays the subscription, and encourage people to open more accounts.
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added.
Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
|
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
183
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 20:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:I submit to you the following:
Pay to Win: - Handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold/isk/whatever.
Pay for Plex: - Some guy grinds missions/incrusions/whatever for isk. - You hand the developers $$ and receive plex. - Some guy passes grinded isk to you and receives plex. - Some guy spends plex for another month of play, thus keeping his own $$ in his pocket.
Net ISK gains: None. Or a small -isk to tax. Net $$ gains: None.
Where is the Pay to Win? It's still play to win, it's just that some other player is doing the playing.
All it does is shift who pays the subscription, and encourage people to open more accounts.
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added. Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
The 'gold' is not spawned, that is the part that you are confusing. You purchase some game time and decide to sell it. The isk may come from a miner. The miner sells some minerals to an industrialist. The isk comes from the indy. The indy makes a product and sell it on the market to the mission runner. The isk comes from the mission runner. The Mission Runner runs his missions. The isk comes from the agent. Even if you remove the first part the isk is still in the game as it always was. |
Steel Wraith
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Then we have different definitions of Pay to Win.
In my mind, Pay to Win is a design model that seeks to encourage massive amounts of microtransactions by spawning items in exclusive stores for players too stupid to realize the game they are playing is wallets online.
In your version it seems Pay to Win is any single player receiving a reward for spending cash no matter where the reward comes from? Am I way off?
Whether more isk really means in-game advantage or not is debatable, I don't want to get into that. Maybe it's unfair to players not willing to pay for others' subscriptions in order to avoid the grind, but I don't see it as having a negative impact on game design. Game-crushing Pay to Win with microt-ransactions and exclusive cash stores is the real evil, and we don't have that here. |
Prince Kobol
510
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Tippia wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. Yeah, no. That's not P2W for the simple reason that you're not buying any "win" GÇö you're trading the exact same things that everyone else already have. That's, at best, RMT or just plain old MT (but not really, since you're not converting money to items). So yes, it's pretty stupid when people make up their own ad-hoc definitions of things. Except there's just one problem: you're wrong. The first argument was: "It's not P2W because you don't actually buy the items themselves." This was debunked by explaining how you are - you're just using a middleman. Adding layers of complexity to the transaction does not change the fact that it's P2W. Now the argument is: "It's not P2W because you can only buy items available to everyone else in the game." But... that's exactly what P2W is. Buying items in the game with real life money. Whether those items are available to other players or not has no bearing on what P2W is; this is just another "made up definition". And actually in most games that offer P2W options ("item shops") you'll notice that the items in the shop are the very same items that can be gained via gameplay by everyone else. P2W offers a shortcut; instead of working for what you have in the game, you just pay for it. Hence, "pay to win". Here's a good way to determine if something is pay to win. Ask yourself "By spending this (real life) money on the game, will I gain an advantage over a player who didn't spend (real life) money on the game in this manner?" If the answer is "yes", then you've payed to win. It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass. :)
All I can say is that you have never played a true P2W game because if you had you would realise how incrediblely wrong you are.
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
OP, it's all OK mate.
It balances out because minerals are FREE! EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added.
Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
I dare you to try this. I could use another guy who plans to "outplay me" while I get a 1.2 B tengu kill that drops 600m worth of loot. Not only are you paying to lose but you are paying me to win. Thanks. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Tippia wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. Yeah, no. That's not P2W for the simple reason that you're not buying any "win" GÇö you're trading the exact same things that everyone else already have. That's, at best, RMT or just plain old MT (but not really, since you're not converting money to items). So yes, it's pretty stupid when people make up their own ad-hoc definitions of things. Except there's just one problem: you're wrong. The first argument was: "It's not P2W because you don't actually buy the items themselves." This was debunked by explaining how you are - you're just using a middleman. Adding layers of complexity to the transaction does not change the fact that it's P2W. Now the argument is: "It's not P2W because you can only buy items available to everyone else in the game." But... that's exactly what P2W is. Buying items in the game with real life money. Whether those items are available to other players or not has no bearing on what P2W is; this is just another "made up definition". And actually in most games that offer P2W options ("item shops") you'll notice that the items in the shop are the very same items that can be gained via gameplay by everyone else. P2W offers a shortcut; instead of working for what you have in the game, you just pay for it. Hence, "pay to win". Here's a good way to determine if something is pay to win. Ask yourself "By spending this (real life) money on the game, will I gain an advantage over a player who didn't spend (real life) money on the game in this manner?" If the answer is "yes", then you've payed to win. It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass. :) All I can say is that you have never played a true P2W game because if you had you would realise how incrediblely wrong you are.
All I can say is that you have never played a true P2W game because if you had you would realize how incredibly correct I am.
(See, I can do that too.) |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Tippia wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. Yeah, no. That's not P2W for the simple reason that you're not buying any "win" GÇö you're trading the exact same things that everyone else already have. That's, at best, RMT or just plain old MT (but not really, since you're not converting money to items). So yes, it's pretty stupid when people make up their own ad-hoc definitions of things. Except there's just one problem: you're wrong. The first argument was: "It's not P2W because you don't actually buy the items themselves." This was debunked by explaining how you are - you're just using a middleman. Adding layers of complexity to the transaction does not change the fact that it's P2W. Now the argument is: "It's not P2W because you can only buy items available to everyone else in the game." But... that's exactly what P2W is. Buying items in the game with real life money. Whether those items are available to other players or not has no bearing on what P2W is; this is just another "made up definition". And actually in most games that offer P2W options ("item shops") you'll notice that the items in the shop are the very same items that can be gained via gameplay by everyone else. P2W offers a shortcut; instead of working for what you have in the game, you just pay for it. Hence, "pay to win". Here's a good way to determine if something is pay to win. Ask yourself "By spending this (real life) money on the game, will I gain an advantage over a player who didn't spend (real life) money on the game in this manner?" If the answer is "yes", then you've payed to win. It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass. :)
Please be quiet when the adults are talking.
Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added.
Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
I dare you to try this. I could use another guy who plans to "outplay me" while I get a 1.2 B tengu kill that drops 600m worth of loot. Not only are you paying to lose but you are paying me to win. Thanks.
You're missing the point entirely but cool let's play "make stuff up" only let's spin it another way:
One character has been playing for years. He is flying a Rifter. Another character has only been playing for a couple of months, and he purchased his Hurricane through PLEX transactions. The two meet up in a lonely asteroid field...
See, I can make up stuff to support my argument, too.
|
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Just out of curiosity, other than a physical show of hands, how can you tell if someone out there is using Plex to play? Is it their faction fit ship? Is it a fully stocked station? |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1443
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:I submit to you the following:
Pay to Win: - Handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold/isk/whatever.
Pay for Plex: - Some guy grinds missions/incrusions/whatever for isk. - You hand the developers $$ and receive plex. - Some guy passes grinded isk to you and receives plex. - Some guy spends plex for another month of play, thus keeping his own $$ in his pocket.
Net ISK gains: None. Or a small -isk to tax. Net $$ gains: None.
Where is the Pay to Win? It's still play to win, it's just that some other player is doing the playing.
All it does is shift who pays the subscription, and encourage people to open more accounts.
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added. Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
Jaboc, an example of Pay to Win would be the more powerful gold ammo only available for cash in WOT. Another, but different example from the same game are the available only for gold Premium tanks, as they have a much higher in game currency potential.
Niether of these items are obtainable by the rest of the players unless they pay real currency for them, and both give a significant advantage in game.
Anything other than this type of item YOU are lumping under the self proclaimed Pay to Win tag are in fact NOT Pay to Win. They simply have more than one way to obtain the same item, with no restrictions on who can or cannot obtain the item. Pay TO WIN by definition indicates that if you pay cash you can obtain an advantage that people who do not pay cash can not obtain.
This does not apply to EVE.
Perhaps YOU should stop imposing your purposely vague definitions, which make literally NO sense, on terms simply to try and make a nonsensical point. The worst term you could possibly use to describe PLEX use in EVE would be Pay to Save Time... and I think most of us can live with that quite happily. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
Steel Wraith wrote:Then we have different definitions of Pay to Win.
In my mind, Pay to Win is a design model that seeks to encourage massive amounts of microtransactions by spawning items in exclusive stores for players too stupid to realize the game they are playing is wallets online.
In your version it seems Pay to Win is any single player receiving a reward for spending cash no matter where the reward comes from? Am I way off?
Whether more isk really means in-game advantage or not is debatable, I don't want to get into that. Maybe it's unfair to players not willing to pay for others' subscriptions in order to avoid the grind, but I don't see it as having a negative impact on game design. Game-crushing Pay to Win with microt-ransactions and exclusive cash stores is the real evil, and we don't have that here.
Here's a question:
What's the difference between someone who buys ISK from another player for $$ vs a player who buys PLEX with $$ and sells it to another player for ISK? Excluding the entire "CCP doesn't like that because they want their slice of the pie, too."
??
|
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
I think he's purposely avoiding my questions now.
Edit: To answer your question, RMT is buying straight up isk. Plex is buying account time. But they have created it so that you may sell that account time or use it on your own however you like. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:18:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:I submit to you the following:
Pay to Win: - Handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold/isk/whatever.
Pay for Plex: - Some guy grinds missions/incrusions/whatever for isk. - You hand the developers $$ and receive plex. - Some guy passes grinded isk to you and receives plex. - Some guy spends plex for another month of play, thus keeping his own $$ in his pocket.
Net ISK gains: None. Or a small -isk to tax. Net $$ gains: None.
Where is the Pay to Win? It's still play to win, it's just that some other player is doing the playing.
All it does is shift who pays the subscription, and encourage people to open more accounts.
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added. Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally". Jaboc, an example of Pay to Win would be the more powerful gold ammo only available for cash in WOT. Another, but different example from the same game are the available only for gold Premium tanks, as they have a much higher in game currency potential. Niether of these items are obtainable by the rest of the players unless they pay real currency for them, and both give a significant advantage in game. Anything other than this type of item YOU are lumping under the self proclaimed Pay to Win tag are in fact NOT Pay to Win. They simply have more than one way to obtain the same item, with no restrictions on who can or cannot obtain the item. Pay TO WIN by definition indicates that if you pay cash you can obtain an advantage that people who do not pay cash can not obtain. This does not apply to EVE. Perhaps YOU should stop imposing your purposely vague definitions, which make literally NO sense, on terms simply to try and make a nonsensical point. The worst term you could possibly use to describe PLEX use in EVE would be Pay to Save Time... and I think most of us can live with that quite happily.
Obviously your made up definitions of P2W (based on one paltry example - lol) are correct because you put the word "fact" in CAPITAL LETTERS.
In case you're confused: I was being sarcastic, and you're an idiot. |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
458
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :( hi i have no brains and then make stuff up to try and sound smart.
actually plex ISN't pay to win because basically all you are doing is selling someone else game time for isk. any other item though would be pay 2 win ( exception to vanity items) because even if CCP sold titans for $ it messes with the market plex is just an item representative of 30 days of game time, it has no other purpose... heck for a while iirc you couldn't undock with them in cargo. also the in game advantage is that of isk only, and it fluctuates based on supply and demand as with any item that can be farmed in game.
|
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
458
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
oh i get it, jacop got his isk taken away. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:21:00 -
[47] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :( hi i have no brains and then make stuff up to try and sound smart. actually plex ISN't pay to win because basically all you are doing is selling someone else game time for isk. any other item though would be pay 2 win ( exception to vanity items) because even if CCP sold titans for $ it messes with the market plex is just an item representative of 30 days of game time, it has no other purpose... heck for a while iirc you couldn't undock with them in cargo. also the in game advantage is that of isk only, and it fluctuates based on supply and demand as with any item that can be farmed in game.
Oh I see what happened, your mom cheated on you. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1443
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:I submit to you the following:
Pay to Win: - Handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold/isk/whatever.
Pay for Plex: - Some guy grinds missions/incrusions/whatever for isk. - You hand the developers $$ and receive plex. - Some guy passes grinded isk to you and receives plex. - Some guy spends plex for another month of play, thus keeping his own $$ in his pocket.
Net ISK gains: None. Or a small -isk to tax. Net $$ gains: None.
Where is the Pay to Win? It's still play to win, it's just that some other player is doing the playing.
All it does is shift who pays the subscription, and encourage people to open more accounts.
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added. Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally". Jaboc, an example of Pay to Win would be the more powerful gold ammo only available for cash in WOT. Another, but different example from the same game are the available only for gold Premium tanks, as they have a much higher in game currency potential. Niether of these items are obtainable by the rest of the players unless they pay real currency for them, and both give a significant advantage in game. Anything other than this type of item YOU are lumping under the self proclaimed Pay to Win tag are in fact NOT Pay to Win. They simply have more than one way to obtain the same item, with no restrictions on who can or cannot obtain the item. Pay TO WIN by definition indicates that if you pay cash you can obtain an advantage that people who do not pay cash can not obtain. This does not apply to EVE. Perhaps YOU should stop imposing your purposely vague definitions, which make literally NO sense, on terms simply to try and make a nonsensical point. The worst term you could possibly use to describe PLEX use in EVE would be Pay to Save Time... and I think most of us can live with that quite happily. Obviously your made up definitions of P2W (based on one paltry example - lol) are correct because you put the word "fact" in CAPITAL LETTERS. In case you're confused: I was being sarcastic, and you're an idiot.
Ahhh, for a moment I thought you were serious. Now I realize you are simply a troll.
Well actually, we all knew you were trolling, but it was fun watching to do the dance for our amusement.
Are we done with this guy yet, or do you guys want to let him caper about a bit longer?
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
INB4 "no ur wrong because FACT: *insertmadeupfact*" |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
161
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Oh I get it, your cousin cheated on you.
Yeah he mad. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
|
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:24:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Loses argument. Uses "you're just at roll" line. Fails.
|
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:My logic is inferior. I'll just say condescending things instead.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1443
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob! Ranger 1 win's and humiliates the simpleton. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1443
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
THE L0CK wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Oh I get it, your cousin cheated on you. Yeah he mad.
He be triple post mad. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over.
(also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail)
|
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
162
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail)
Fixed Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1443
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:48:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail)
It's a commonly used slang phrase, which Urban Dictionary collects into a central repository.
So, tell me, what items can you obtain in EVE that are better than those that do not pay cash directly. By the way, many players (myself included) can easily generate the ISK to pay for any ingame items you would care to name faster than you can earn the money to pay for them with cash.
We can put that to the test any time you like.
But yes, back to the point, what BETTER items can you obtain than I? When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Steel Wraith
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:54:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:
Here's a question:
What's the difference between someone who buys ISK from another player for $$ vs a player who buys PLEX with $$ and sells it to another player for ISK? Excluding the entire "CCP doesn't like that because they want their slice of the pie, too."
??
Okay I'll bite. Buying plex is a one-way transaction of $$ to isk as far as real currency is concerned and flows to CCP.
RMTing (obviously what you are getting at), however, is against the EULA/TOS and involves a very similar mechanic of receiving isk that someone has grinded for cash. But in this case the cash flows directly to a player. In other words, a player is now doing the reverse transaction to buying plex and is receiving real world cash for isk.
This means there is a real incentive for some people to play the game, or bot, solely to generate isk and convert to real world cash. With plex, however, you can only really get $10-$15 per month "back" in subscription fees per account that you are playing. The Plex system only incentivizes grinding to pay for your subscription and pvp or for your station full of faction fit bling tengus.
Parting shot: Your argument is becoming the convoluted one.
|
Minabunny
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:56:00 -
[59] - Quote
Plex is hardly 'pay to win'. It's good for the players and it's good business for CCP. there is no need to remove it. |
DonHel
Aliastra Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Once there was a time before plex, that people met on a place on these forums called the game time bazaarr or some crap.. which is still there.. |
|
Raisa Mole
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:00:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail)
While I fully recognize at this point that you're just trolling, I'll jump in anyway and agree with everyone who said you have a severe misunderstanding of what P2W actually is. As has been repeatedly stated, pay to win games are games where the items available ONLY from the cash shop give you a clear advantage over anything that you can actually get ingame.
Example of a pay to win game : Dragon Nest, or in fact most games made by Nexon. The items available exclusively from the cash shop give you bonuses not available anywhere else, making it impossible for a non cash shop user to compete (assuming equal skill).
Now, the fact is, there are plenty of people who legitimately believe that ANY form of cash shop is pay to win, regardless of whether it's true or not, and they bandy the term around to try to bring more people to their side. Fortunately these people are a minority, since there are plenty of good microtransaction games out there that are not pay to win.
Example of microtransaction game that is not pay to win : League of Legends. Skins are available only through cash purchase, but they give you no ingame advantage. You can also purchase characters or runes through cash, but you can also get those through IP, which requires just grinding games.
The difference here should be obvious. Moreover, real pay to win games don't exist for long, since they are almost universally hated. If you are actually being sincere in your arguments, then it is unsurprising that you have never played one, since there aren't many around. Most respectable game companies learned a long time ago that you can sell fluff items like skins and hats and it doesn't bother many people, but if you sell anything that buffs your character in a way that a non-spender can't, it will kill the game. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
640
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added.
Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
I dare you to try this. I could use another guy who plans to "outplay me" while I get a 1.2 B tengu kill that drops 600m worth of loot. Not only are you paying to lose but you are paying me to win. Thanks. You're missing the point entirely but cool let's play "make stuff up" only let's spin it another way: One character has been playing for years. He is flying a Rifter. Another character has only been playing for a couple of months, and he purchased his Hurricane through PLEX transactions. The two meet up in a lonely asteroid field... See, I can make up stuff to support my argument, too. Bet you a PLEX that the Rifter wins. |
Raisa Mole
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:02:00 -
[63] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:
This is just the "masking P2W with layers of complexity" argument. You're still handing the developers $$ and receiving spawned gold and ISK despite the cute little middleman they added.
Also: Pay to win does not preclude play to win. You can still outplay a person who bought their shiny gear with $$. This is an example of "taking the terminology too literally".
I dare you to try this. I could use another guy who plans to "outplay me" while I get a 1.2 B tengu kill that drops 600m worth of loot. Not only are you paying to lose but you are paying me to win. Thanks. You're missing the point entirely but cool let's play "make stuff up" only let's spin it another way: One character has been playing for years. He is flying a Rifter. Another character has only been playing for a couple of months, and he purchased his Hurricane through PLEX transactions. The two meet up in a lonely asteroid field... See, I can make up stuff to support my argument, too. Bet you a PLEX that the Rifter wins.
True that. Or he finds out that he can't break the tank and just wanders off, no harm no foul. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:12:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail) It's a commonly used slang phrase, which Urban Dictionary collects into a central repository. So, tell me, what items can you obtain in EVE that are better than those obtainable by those that do not pay cash directly? By the way, many players (myself included) can easily generate the ISK to pay for any ingame item you would care to name faster than you can earn the money to pay for them with cash. We can put that to the test any time you like. But yes, back to the point, what BETTER items can you obtain than I?
First of all, you're still operating from a false premise; ie, that P2W is defined by buying items that are not normally available in the game. Unfortunately I'm not going to validate your false premise by humoring it. However, if you reread the (unofficial, slangy) definition you posted, there's these words: "at a faster rate". An example of this would be a first day player buying Battleships his first day on EVE by slinging PLEX around, vs someone who ran missions for 6 months because they couldn't afford PLEX2WIN.
Basically I own your face, kid. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3270
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:16:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:Then we have different definitions of Pay to Win.
In my mind, Pay to Win is a design model that seeks to encourage massive amounts of microtransactions by spawning items in exclusive stores for players too stupid to realize the game they are playing is wallets online.
In your version it seems Pay to Win is any single player receiving a reward for spending cash no matter where the reward comes from? Am I way off?
Whether more isk really means in-game advantage or not is debatable, I don't want to get into that. Maybe it's unfair to players not willing to pay for others' subscriptions in order to avoid the grind, but I don't see it as having a negative impact on game design. Game-crushing Pay to Win with microt-ransactions and exclusive cash stores is the real evil, and we don't have that here. Here's a question: What's the difference between someone who buys ISK from another player for $$ vs a player who buys PLEX with $$ and sells it to another player for ISK? Excluding the entire "CCP doesn't like that because they want their slice of the pie, too." ??
Why I believe I can answer that! In fact I already did, quite a while ago: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:18:00 -
[66] - Quote
dude you bought isk, you cheated.. suck it up and A quit, play wow B make a new account and ply fair. |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
168
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:PLEX is not pay to win. It's pay to skip working for the ISK to buy that titan. It's pay to buy a titan pilot to fly it. It's pay to fill your wallet while doing nothing. It's pay in lieu of grind. I guess we're all fine with that except me. Mr Epeen the thing is, it would eb P2W if it GENERATED ANYTHING... the only change PLEX ahs to the game after ebing purchased is that it ahs the ent efect fo REMOVING isk through transaction fees, because there are NO NPC buy orders for PLEX, if you sell it, t is to another player. if it is to another player, then there ahs been no isk introduced, simply isk trading ahnds, therefore it is NOT pay-to-win, as you are simply trading the commodity (plex) the same as you would trade a ship or module for someone elses isk, the difference ebing that when someone uses plex ccp gets more money than if they just used a subscription.
SUPPORT EVE, BUY MORE PLEX |
Ai Shun
585
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:31:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Tippia wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. Yeah, no. That's not P2W for the simple reason that you're not buying any "win" GÇö you're trading the exact same things that everyone else already have. That's, at best, RMT or just plain old MT (but not really, since you're not converting money to items). So yes, it's pretty stupid when people make up their own ad-hoc definitions of things. Except there's just one problem: you're wrong. The first argument was: "It's not P2W because you don't actually buy the items themselves." This was debunked by explaining how you are - you're just using a middleman. Adding layers of complexity to the transaction does not change the fact that it's P2W. Now the argument is: "It's not P2W because you can only buy items available to everyone else in the game." But... that's exactly what P2W is. Buying items in the game with real life money. Whether those items are available to other players or not has no bearing on what P2W is; this is just another "made up definition". And actually in most games that offer P2W options ("item shops") you'll notice that the items in the shop are the very same items that can be gained via gameplay by everyone else. P2W offers a shortcut; instead of working for what you have in the game, you just pay for it. Hence, "pay to win". Here's a good way to determine if something is pay to win. Ask yourself "By spending this (real life) money on the game, will I gain an advantage over a player who didn't spend (real life) money on the game in this manner?" If the answer is "yes", then you've payed to win. It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass. :)
When you can define how having ISK means you have "won" in EVE you may have a point. Keep trying though 'Baby' Brent. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
Reminds me of another game I played.
Some guy in Earth&Beyond had an awesome character which had the best of the best gear on his ship. At some point he sold his account on E-Bay and cashed in. Now one would assume that the one who bought the account did a P2W action.
Howmuch more fun it was seeing his distress beacon all over the place because one thing he didn't buy with that character was the ability to actually know how to use it.
So you see. It doesn't matter howmuch you invest in a game that has no store specific ingame items. In the end you can buy a titan character and a titan to match and the first action you make is instead of creating a bridge to jump your attackgroup in is jump in yourself and die horribly.
|
Richard Aiel
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:ISK does not garauntee "Win". PLEX-selling ISK is not different than normal-earned ISK. And earning ISK is a competitive challenge (can be, though), it's just time-consuming. The day CCP sells something that can't be attained through ingame methods in any way, that's P2W. We could even draw the line onto "Not produce-able in game, better than it's normal correspective" and still sellable on market (That giving an effective advantage would depend on the players - if the $$-bought thing is readily avaiable, then who cares where it spawns; if it's hilariously costly, AND has no do-good on the economy, perhaps...)
PLEX is just a way to trade one's money into another's time. And both sides are happy enough to keep the agreement.
Also, ISK is not power. It's not like MD united could blow ten trillions and gain control of a meangingful portion of 0.0. In another game, you call someone in the best avaiable gear (not righfully earned) going around PVPing a cheater. in EVE, you call someone going around in Officier gear and Vindicator, doing small-scale pvp.. a pinata. With a giant "shoot me for goodies" painted on it.
unlimited amounts seem to help though, see 0.0
Ravan Hekki: "Well done CCP. Banned tears the best sort of tears." especially Goon tears
|
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Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:35:00 -
[71] - Quote
Raisa Mole wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail) While I fully recognize at this point that you're just trolling, I'll jump in anyway and agree with everyone who said you have a severe misunderstanding of what P2W actually is. As has been repeatedly stated, pay to win games are games where the items available ONLY from the cash shop give you a clear advantage over anything that you can actually get ingame. Example of a pay to win game : Dragon Nest, or in fact most games made by Nexon. The items available exclusively from the cash shop give you bonuses not available anywhere else, making it impossible for a non cash shop user to compete (assuming equal skill). Now, the fact is, there are plenty of people who legitimately believe that ANY form of cash shop is pay to win, regardless of whether it's true or not, and they bandy the term around to try to bring more people to their side. Fortunately these people are a minority, since there are plenty of good microtransaction games out there that are not pay to win. Example of microtransaction game that is not pay to win : League of Legends. Skins are available only through cash purchase, but they give you no ingame advantage. You can also purchase characters or runes through cash, but you can also get those through IP, which requires just grinding games. The difference here should be obvious. Moreover, real pay to win games don't exist for long, since they are almost universally hated. If you are actually being sincere in your arguments, then it is unsurprising that you have never played one, since there aren't many around. Most respectable game companies learned a long time ago that you can sell fluff items like skins and hats and it doesn't bother many people, but if you sell anything that buffs your character in a way that a non-spender can't, it will kill the game.
Dungeons and Dragons Online and Star Trek Online come to mind when ppl say "pay to win"
Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:37:00 -
[72] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:dude you bought isk, you cheated.. suck it up and A quit, play wow B make a new account and ply fair.
They cheat in that too for some reason I dont understand Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail) It's a commonly used slang phrase, which Urban Dictionary collects into a central repository. So, tell me, what items can you obtain in EVE that are better than those obtainable by those that do not pay cash directly? By the way, many players (myself included) can easily generate the ISK to pay for any ingame item you would care to name faster than you can earn the money to pay for them with cash. We can put that to the test any time you like. But yes, back to the point, what BETTER items can you obtain than I? First of all, you're still operating from a false premise; ie, that P2W is defined by buying items that are not normally available in the game. Unfortunately I'm not going to validate your false premise by humoring it. However, if you reread the (unofficial, slangy) definition you posted, there's these words: "at a faster rate". An example of this would be a first day player buying Battleships his first day on EVE by slinging PLEX around, vs someone who ran missions for 6 months because they couldn't afford PLEX2WIN. Basically I own your face, kid.
I just read your post in New Players, I don't hink you have much of a clue about how PLEX works, so you don't own anyone's face, kid
Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
220
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:40:00 -
[74] - Quote
PLEX = Hiring someone else to help you through a transaction involving payment via isk. Plex isn't 'pay to win' it is 'pay to hire'. You are effectively paying someone else to play for you in return for paying for their subscription for them. I don't always finish my commentary, but when I do |
knobber Jobbler
151
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 22:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :( Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments. Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. End of story. Feel free to argue little boy - mere words will not spare you from being wrong and dumb.
Its not pay to win though. Pay to win is a business model used by world of tanks for instance I.e gold ammo.
|
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:08:00 -
[76] - Quote
At this point I am going to assume that Ranger1 royally pissed somebody off in another thread because this guy is avoiding commentary with the rest of us and is only responding to Ranger1 with a fair amount of hostility.
Edit: Also, excellent read through by Malcanis and his link. I was actually going to make a post with an example of subbing an alt and making him work to fund a main and ask if it were any different from what we see with plex. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1446
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Urban Dictionary
1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. I highlighted an important part that your tiny mind conveniently glossed over. (also: lol@urbandictionary, because using someone else's made up definition to support your made up definition is double-fail) It's a commonly used slang phrase, which Urban Dictionary collects into a central repository. So, tell me, what items can you obtain in EVE that are better than those obtainable by those that do not pay cash directly? By the way, many players (myself included) can easily generate the ISK to pay for any ingame item you would care to name faster than you can earn the money to pay for them with cash. We can put that to the test any time you like. But yes, back to the point, what BETTER items can you obtain than I? First of all, you're still operating from a false premise; ie, that P2W is defined by buying items that are not normally available in the game. Unfortunately I'm not going to validate your false premise by humoring it. However, if you reread the (unofficial, slangy) definition you posted, there's these words: "at a faster rate". An example of this would be a first day player buying Battleships his first day on EVE by slinging PLEX around, vs someone who ran missions for 6 months because they couldn't afford PLEX2WIN. Basically I own your face, kid.
Still overlooking the fact that it has to be better as well I see.
I've given a widely accepted source that defines modern terms, you have provided nothing.
By the definition from the only credible source presented, you fail to meet the criteria of "Pay to Win".
In your example the first day player certainly wouldn't win, and obviously doesn't lend any weight to your Pay to Win argument.
If your old enough to call me "kid" you're in your 70's, congratulations you old fart but I suggest you start taking your meds again.
Quote:I just read your post in New Citizens, I don't hink you have much of a clue about EVE in general, never mind how PLEX works, so you don't own anyone's face, kid
Classic.
If you want any tips on how basic EVE works, I'll be happy to assist you... for a fee. However, if you want to easily surpass my knowledge, I'm sure all you have to do is buy some PLEX's to "win" at EVE. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1446
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:20:00 -
[78] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:At this point I am going to assume that Ranger1 royally pissed somebody off in another thread because this guy is avoiding commentary with the rest of us and is only responding to Ranger1 with a fair amount of hostility.
Edit: Also, excellent read through by Malcanis and his link. I was actually going to make a post with an example of subbing an alt and making him work to fund a main and ask if it were any different from what we see with plex.
I think it's because he believes I'm the only one with patience to actually put up with his attempt at trolling... and he's probably right.
Malcanis always makes insightful posts, and is one of the more level headed posters on the forum. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
260
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
If PLEX isn't pay to win and isn't unfair, why is RMT banned?
All I hear is the regurgitation of the exact same BS CCP puts out.
I bet that if it weren't for Mittani telling you to think otherwise, you'd all be sitting comfy in your $200 space pants in a custom vanity ship bought with AUR. |
Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 23:55:00 -
[80] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :( Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments. Whether you by the item directly from CCP or indirectly via the middleman of a PLEX, it is still paying real money for an in-game advantage. Therefore, it is P2W. End of story. Feel free to argue little boy - mere words will not spare you from being wrong and dumb. Its not pay to win though. Pay to win is a business model used by world of tanks for instance I.e gold ammo.
Yeah forgot that one Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
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Raisa Mole
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:16:00 -
[81] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:If PLEX isn't pay to win and isn't unfair, why is RMT banned?
All I hear is the regurgitation of the exact same BS CCP puts out.
I bet that if it weren't for Mittani telling you to think otherwise, you'd all be sitting comfy in your $200 space pants in a custom vanity ship bought with AUR.
For most MMOs, the campaign against RMT is really little more than a PR thing. For example, Blizzard has no real reason to care about RMT or farmbots, since it's not losing them revenue, and the auction house is not one of the major draws of the game, since like most MMOs the ingame economy is laugable. In some countries there would be potential legal problems if RMT were allowed by the EULA, but mostly these are minor anyway.
CCP is the exception here, they have a couple reasons to care. First, RMT actually does impact their bottom line, at least in a hypothetical way, since a player purchasing from a farmshop on the net is not giving CCP any money. At least in theory, if they couldn't RMT on the net, they'd be buying PLEX for sale, giving CCP more income. This sometimes holds true and sometimes doesn't in reality, but it is an incentive they have that most MMO companies do not.
The bigger incentive is that, unlike most other MMOs, the EVE economy is a big draw of the game, and is a reasonable facsimile of how a real economy works. Nearly all RMT sellers are botters, and it is the botters that are the problem in terms of the economy. Keeping nonsanctioned RMT clearly illegal helps deter those bots, though only by a little bit. Really, when you get right down to it, if they continue on the new path of being effective against bots, they will almost accidentally eliminate nearly all RMT anyway. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:24:00 -
[82] - Quote
PLEX is, without a doubt, a form of pay to win.
In EVE, money is a form of power. Power via better ships/modules/rigs, power via market manipulation, power via hiring mercs, ect.... This is a well known fact. (ISK = in game power) Even if it is not the only form of power, it still is a form of power in EVE.
PLEX is purchased with real $$ then can be sold for ISK in game. (Real $$ = PLEX = ISK)
Transitively through PLEX, $$ can quickly and easily become power wthin the game. (Real $$ = in game power)
The fact that PLEX is legal and easy vehicle for real $$ to become in game power which can and does provide an unfair advantage, it is pay to win. Perhaps not to the degree of an instant win weapon, but it does still provide an in game advantage.
The only fair way to judge it would be to compare two players or corps/alliance with all things equal at war with each other. Skill, skill points, ships, pilots, ect... all equal. Then one side purchases a huge pile PLEX and sells them for ISK. This side now has an in game advantage due to real $$ being paid for it.
Sure, the underdog may just pull ahead and win it in the end with luck or some outside factor. However, that does not negate the fact that one side purchased an in game advantage with real $$. |
Ai Shun
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:27:00 -
[83] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:PLEX is, without a doubt, a form of pay to win.
In EVE, money is a form of power. Power via better ships/modules/rigs, power via market manipulation, power via hiring mercs, ect.... This is a well known fact. (ISK = in game power) Even if it is not the only form of power, it still is a form of power in EVE.
PLEX is purchased with real $$ then can be sold for ISK in game. (Real $$ = PLEX = ISK)
Transitively through PLEX, $$ can quickly and easily become power wthin the game. (Real $$ = in game power)
The fact that PLEX is legal and easy vehicle for real $$ to become in game power which can and does provide an unfair advantage, it is pay to win. Perhaps not to the degree of an instant win weapon, but it does still provide an in game advantage.
The only fair way to judge it would be to compare two players or corps/alliance with all things equal at war with each other. Skill, skill points, ships, pilots, ect... all equal. Then one side purchases a huge pile PLEX and sells them for ISK. This side now has an in game advantage due to real $$ being paid for it.
Sure, the underdog may just pull ahead and win it in the end with luck or some outside factor. However, that does not negate the fact that one side purchased an in game advantage with real $$.
You could equally replace PLEX with time. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:29:00 -
[84] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:PLEX is, without a doubt, a form of pay to win.
In EVE, money is a form of power. Power via better ships/modules/rigs, power via market manipulation, power via hiring mercs, ect.... This is a well known fact. (ISK = in game power) Even if it is not the only form of power, it still is a form of power in EVE.
PLEX is purchased with real $$ then can be sold for ISK in game. (Real $$ = PLEX = ISK)
Transitively through PLEX, $$ can quickly and easily become power wthin the game. (Real $$ = in game power)
The fact that PLEX is legal and easy vehicle for real $$ to become in game power which can and does provide an unfair advantage, it is pay to win. Perhaps not to the degree of an instant win weapon, but it does still provide an in game advantage.
The only fair way to judge it would be to compare two players or corps/alliance with all things equal at war with each other. Skill, skill points, ships, pilots, ect... all equal. Then one side purchases a huge pile PLEX and sells them for ISK. This side now has an in game advantage due to real $$ being paid for it.
Sure, the underdog may just pull ahead and win it in the end with luck or some outside factor. However, that does not negate the fact that one side purchased an in game advantage with real $$. You could equally replace PLEX with time.
Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. |
Dharh
Ace Adventure Corp Blue Meanies
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:34:00 -
[85] - Quote
Real World Money for in game money is always going exist in a popular game. It cannot be stopped. So CCP took a truly harmful thing that can destroy game economies and turned a major part of it into something that helps the economy. By funneling the ability to pay money for ISK through game time there is a major net benefit. The only downside, the only real thing CCP can actually fight against, is RMT.
People who can't see that have not seen how botting and cash for gold destroys games. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:38:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dharh wrote:Real World Money for in game money is always going exist in a popular game. It cannot be stopped. So CCP took a truly harmful thing that can destroy game economies and turned a major part of it into something that helps the economy. By funneling the ability to pay money for ISK through game time there is a major net benefit. The only downside, the only real thing CCP can actually fight against, is RMT.
People who can't see that have not seen how botting and cash for gold destroys games.
I agree. PLEX is defintiely less harmful than illegal RMT. I have seen botting/RMT ruin games... far too many games. Which is why PLEX is a poison in my eyes.
The positive factor here is that the player driven market decides just how much damage PLEX does to the game. Which, due to that, is less damage than illegal RMT. And CCP gets the $$ rather than some turd ruining the game for his own personal gain. So PLEX ends up being a much less harmful poison than botting/RMT. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
262
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:41:00 -
[87] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote: Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.
But that isn't what pay to win means. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:44:00 -
[88] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Nub Sauce wrote: Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.
But that isn't what pay to win means.
So spending extra real $$ (pay) to (to) gain power faster (win) than those who are just playing the game without spending extra $$ is not paying to win? |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
193
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?
Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.
Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?
Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.
About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
154
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:48:00 -
[90] - Quote
Richard Aiel wrote:lol all the botters and RMTers?
But Goons are still here *shock*
Are you trying to insinuate that all Goons are botters and RMTers? |
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Ai Shun
590
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.
So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week? |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:55:00 -
[92] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?
Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.
Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?
Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.
About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience.
Just because they didn't use their advantage proprerly doesn't mean they didn't purchase an in game advantage with real $$.
The fact that the underdog would even need to employ a strategy to avoid the war rather than having a fair chance only proves the purchased advantage.
The attrition situation would be true in an instance where both parties were already loaded out with optimal ships/gear, ect... The PLEX buyers would still have an advantage in this case. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:58:00 -
[93] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week?
There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.
|
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
193
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:00:00 -
[94] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote:In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?
Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.
Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?
Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.
About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience. Just because they didn't use their advantage proprerly doesn't mean they didn't purchase an in game advantage with real $$. The fact that the underdog would even need to employ a strategy to avoid the war rather than having a fair chance only proves the purchased advantage. The attrition situation would be true in an instance where both parties were already loaded out with optimal ships/gear, ect... The PLEX buyers would still have an advantage in this case.
But is it still an advantage when they lose so much? I mean it sounds an awful lot like a loss to me. At least I wouldn't be walking out of that thinking I won the week. Both parties are still able to purchase the same ship types, same mods, and same ammo. On that level both parties are still equal, the only difference is that one worked for his ships and one had somebody (possibly the underdog himself) do some work for him. |
Ai Shun
592
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:07:00 -
[95] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week? There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.
Two pilots start at the same time. Both have identical training plans. They can both use the equipment at the same time. One buys a PLEX and uses it to fund his next month. The other buys a PLEX and uses it to generate ISK.
Who won?
Nobody.
Pilot A plays 6 hours a day. Pilot B plays 6 hours a week. Who has won?
Sorry mate, but your story just doesn't hold water for me.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
641
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:11:00 -
[96] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week? There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$. Two pilots start at the same time. Both have identical training plans. They can both use the equipment at the same time. One buys a PLEX and uses it to fund his next month. The other buys a PLEX and uses it to generate ISK. Who won? Nobody. Pilot A plays 6 hours a day. Pilot B plays 6 hours a week. Who has won? Sorry mate, but your story just doesn't hold water for me. The only difference would be that the PLEX for isk dude could get into, and likely lose, more expensive stuff faster. So its not pay to win, but pay to lose. |
Ai Shun
592
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:15:00 -
[97] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:The only difference would be that the PLEX for isk dude could get into, and likely lose, more expensive stuff faster. So its not pay to win, but pay to lose.
Assuming that PLEX for playtime did not make the capital to purchase the modules. But yeah, agreed in principle. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
193
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
Scenario #2
We remove the plex seller with a person who purchases 2 extra accounts. Those 2 accounts are only there to make isk hand over fist. All isk generated goes directly to his main account to purchase ships and mods.
Underdog remains the underdog.
All of the above in the first scenario still plays out the same and the new opponent can still purchase parts just as fast as the plex seller.
Scenario #3
Pit the Plex seller with the guy with 2 accounts. Both can purchase the same tools. Both can recover at the same rate.
Is the Plex seller still at the advantage? Furthermore, is the 3 account person now playing a play to win game like WOT? |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:25:00 -
[99] - Quote
A 5mill SP pilot in a mach is just a free killboard padding. |
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:27:00 -
[100] - Quote
People with 22 mining accounts or lap/research one man corps would dwindle.
Markets would get interesting. |
|
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:33:00 -
[101] - Quote
Actually PLEX was one of the smartest things CCP ever did.
And to kill your immediate response no I have never bought a PLEX. It still doesn't change that fact it was a smart move by CCP.
|
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
83
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:59:00 -
[102] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:Nub Sauce wrote: Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.
But that isn't what pay to win means. So spending extra real $$ ( pay) to ( to) gain power faster ( win) than those who are just playing the game without spending extra $$ is not paying to win?
Not at all, it simply gives you more spending power to buy the same things that everybody else has access to. It can still be destroyerd and gives no special benefits that is not accessible by someone else if they choose to purchase that item.
The ISK paid to that indivisual selling the PLEX or GTC comes from other players and its price is governed by market forces as you've said yourself. If it was play to win it would allow those selling them to gain access to in game benefits that others were denied. Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 02:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
Pay to Win? For me it's Pay to Play.
I saw in some other thread a guy described the "average" player as someone who spends 15 hours / week in game. I must be way below average, because I'm lucky if I can get a few hours on the weekend to login and run some L4s. If it weren't for PLEX, I wouldn't be playing EVE at all. Because it would mean spending all of my available game time trying to earn ISK to buy ships and ammo, rather than doing the fun stuff like actually flying my ships and shooting stuff. And what would be the point of that?
Somewhere on planet Earth, there is a 14 year old kid with no job who plays EVE 40 hours a week and earns billions of ISK a day. I'm paying his subscription fee and he's buying me missiles. He's cool with that, and I'm cool with that. Everybody else can just **** off.
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
|
Ai Shun
596
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:26:00 -
[104] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Pay to Win? For me it's Pay to Play.
I saw in some other thread a guy described the "average" player as someone who spends 15 hours / week in game. I must be way below average, because I'm lucky if I can get a few hours on the weekend to login and run some L4s. If it weren't for PLEX, I wouldn't be playing EVE at all. Because it would mean spending all of my available game time trying to earn ISK to buy ships and ammo, rather than doing the fun stuff like actually flying my ships and shooting stuff. And what would be the point of that?
Somewhere on planet Earth, there is a 14 year old kid with no job who plays EVE 40 hours a week and earns billions of ISK a day. I'm paying his subscription fee and he's buying me missiles. He's cool with that, and I'm cool with that. Everybody else can just **** off.
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
+1
And thank you for offline training, CCP. It means I can train when I can't play; thus helping to put more players on an equal footing. Just like PLEX and all the other toys and tools ... |
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 03:47:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:[quote=Tippia][quote=Jacob Staffuer]Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass. :) Wow.. You're taking arrogance and hypocrisy to a whole new level. Even suggesting Plex to be removed from the game proves that you have no idea how the gaming industry works. Do you understand how this will affect the company's income? Besides monthly subs, the only other income is from PLEX, and you should know this when you are such a ******* pro at gaming industry. Also, you are ignoring everyone else's arguments just because they do not support your own case. If that's not ignorance, then I don't know.. Get off your tall jew-horse and reflect upon this post......
*Edit* And to revert your earlier statement. Wouldn't it be unfair to players that did not have time to set aside for farming if they had to go up versus players that were farming day and night? |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
263
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 06:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:06:00 -
[107] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote: Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
Meh. I fail to see how they lost, they are rewarded by the PLEX system with the opportunity to play for free. I suspect that most people who are paying their subs in PLEX do not feel like they are hurt by the system. I think the only people who are butthurt over PLEX are the people who a) don't have the time or inclination to grind ISK, and b) don't have the RL currency to pay for PLEX. It sucks for them to be sure, but no one ever said life was fair.
Aranakas wrote: If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
There is a major difference between PLEX and RMT, beyond CCP lining its pockets, and that is that unlike RMT CCP controls the PLEX market. If in-game PLEX prices rise too high, CCP can run sales on PLEX to increase supply. They have even stated that the company is prepared to take emergency steps in such a case (seeding PLEX into the market directly). Conversely, if PLEX prices crash, CCP can suspend PLEX sales until the market recovers. None of these options are available in the RMT market. CCP is in the PLEX business to make profit, for sure. But they directly benefit from a strong in-game economy, as well, and so they will not trash the EVE economy to make a buttload of cash on PLEX sales. RMT traders have no such qualms.
That is the difference.
|
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
453
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Aranakas wrote: Also unfair to those playing the game.
Ahh, the "f" word. Fair. That word that conveniently divides the entire universe in two exactly where you want it to. Honestly no one gives a crap about what you think is "fair" and "unfair". In fact, I think YOUR view is pretty unfair. See what happens when you play with subjective terms that have absolutely no meaning? Suddenly you're on the wrong side, because I say you are. And now we can argue forever and never get anywhere. |
Lt Angus
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:24:00 -
[109] - Quote
Plex is great for noobs who dont want to grind their first bil and great for vets to play for free. Why anyone with more than 5mill SP would sell plex escapes me. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:03:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mugged Yougot wrote:Even suggesting Plex to be removed from the game proves that you have no idea how the gaming industry works.
Well then, it's a wonderfully jolly thing that I never suggested PLEX be removed from the game. And the fact that I didn't proves that you have the reading comprehension of an uncouth neanderthal.
*looks at you*
*unzips pants*
Yeah. Time to get on your knees and call me Mr. Daddy... |
|
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
118
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:spending real money for fake money is pointless
I feel this way whenever I travel to other countries and have to change -ú into something else.
Oh wait, isk is an actual currency, the only difference is you can't convert it back. Also, changing -ú to isk so you can buy things in game..... that kind of gives it a point, so, erm....
What's your beef with plex? Personally, I get paid enough that I sub on a yearly basis and plex whenever the mindnumbing tedium of ratting\incursions\missions gets too much for me to handle.
I like explosions, ones where other people cry about it. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
199
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:51:00 -
[112] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote:
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
So I'll ask again, if you see a player a sitting at a gate in a Mach, how can you that he bought that with a plex or with his own earned isk?
And what about the players who put in the effort to make their own isk, but use a portion of that isk to purchase a PLEX from a plex seller because they cannot afford the game by other means. If you want to talk about fairness then tell me how this would be fair to them. They are working hard like you after all.
Aranakas wrote:If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
They are the same thing eh.
Why haven't we heard stories about CCP hacking players computers and stealing their accounts to use as bots?
Why don't I receive an in game item from an isk bot that I can use to benefit not only myself but another player as well?
Why don't I get keyloggers and viruses when I log into my account page?
Why don't I see CCP Sreegs piloting 12 hulks clearing out my belts?
Aranakas wrote:The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year.
Citation please.
I also have a ton of other questions that are still left unanswered in this thread. Feel free to run through and wow us with your answers. |
Frying Doom
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
159
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:01:00 -
[113] - Quote
I would hardly call plex play to win, way I see it someone uses their RL money to pay for all of my accounts and I do a few days of watching movies while my hulks mine. I haven't payed for 12 months now and really prefer someone else who wants isk to pay for me. Its win win and if they don't have enough SP they can't pilot the bigger stuff anyway. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge. |
Prince Kobol
514
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:08:00 -
[114] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year.
Facts.. rofl
The difference between PLEX and what EA, Turbine and other developers do with their cash store is they sell ITEMS, some of which can not be acquired in game and only be purchased via their stores.
Plex does not give you access to anything special. It either gives you game time or isk.. that is it.
Yes PLEX is legal because nobodies humans rights are violated, no laws are broken, their is no connection to a criminal element that exists in gold farming.
Other methods of gaining Eve Online currency are illegal not because some person/company (mentioning the Chinese shows how little about RMT you know) because of the above things I have mentioned as well as other points.
Also the reason why EA was voted the worst company of the year was not just about their cash stores, but because they are god awful across the entire spectrum. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5926
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:26:00 -
[115] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:The difference between PLEX and what EA, Turbine and other developers do with their cash store is they sell ITEMS, some of which can not be acquired in game and only be purchased via their stores.
Plex does not give you access to anything special. It either gives you game time or isk.. that is it. In fact, it's even easier than that: PLEX give you game timeGǪ period.
The difference is that you are allowed to trade this game-time for with other players, be it for ISK or for other items GÇö PLEX themselves are not guaranteed to give you any ISK whatsoever. In effect, you're trading game time for game time: you let them have one more month of playing the game, and they let you have stuff that you could have accumulated yourself if you spent more time playing the game.
PLEX are completely economy-neutral: nothing is added, nothing is removed (wellGǪ ok, some taxes and fees are deducted). This fact alone completely removes any chance of it being a P2W mechanic. You're trading it for stuff that's already in the game GÇö no GÇ£winGÇ£ is being generated that wasn't already there.
Now, the introduction of AUR slightly altered this, since you can now use PLEX to inject worthless and pointless stuff (clothes) into the economy, but since they are exactly that: pointless and worthess, and since you can get your hands on them through by trading with some other peddler of worthless goods, we're once again leagues away from the kinds of item purchases seen in other games, and light-years away from anything that could be considered P2W. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1378
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:31:00 -
[116] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex. I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it.
So you deny CCP revenue .. good for you.. I prefer PLEX since it brings more money to CCP.
|
Josefius
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
60
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:31:00 -
[117] - Quote
So why don't you use it? Try not to bruise it Buy time don't lose it The rePlex is an only child he's waiting in the park The rePlex is in charge of finding treasure in the dark And watching over lucky clover isn't that bizarre Every little thing the rePlex does Leaves you answered with a question mark You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Winston Churchill |
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 15:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Mugged Yougot wrote:Even suggesting Plex to be removed from the game proves that you have no idea how the gaming industry works. Well then, it's a wonderfully jolly thing that I never suggested PLEX be removed from the game. And the fact that I didn't proves that you have the reading comprehension of an uncouth neanderthal. *looks at you* *unzips pants* Yeah. Time to get on your knees and call me Mr. Daddy... I have not bothered reading all your posts, but you are supporting the OP, thus you are either supporting the idea of regulating plex-prices, or remove it completely, and my point still stands. Regulating the prices keeping them low is allowing more people to found their playtime with in-game currency. And you conveniently avoided answering my question. Now go practice some yoga and suck your own ****, you homosexual. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
265
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:07:00 -
[119] - Quote
PLEX gives you access to "game time". ROFL. You don't trade it in for a time machine, you trade it in for isk.
By that logic, if I went and bought drugs its okay, because I'm buying the time it would take to go to Morocco where they're legal and get stoned off my ass and come back. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:08:00 -
[120] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:PLEX gives you access to "game time". ROFL. You don't trade it in for a time machine, you trade it in for isk.
By that logic, if I went and bought drugs its okay, because I'm buying the time it would take to go to Morocco where they're legal and get stoned off my ass and come back.
You avoided answering any of my questions yet again.
I'll give you another one since you don't believe that Plex gives you game time:
What does a player do with the Plex one they have purchased it with isk? |
|
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:19:00 -
[121] - Quote
Lt Angus wrote:Plex is great for noobs who dont want to grind their first bil and great for vets to play for free. Why anyone with more than 5mill SP would sell plex escapes me.
Many people play the game to enjoy it...not to work at it.... I see many people playing on plex only, but their focus in game is to earn isk for that next plex.....so they can continue playing/working?
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Zircon Dasher
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:24:00 -
[122] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote: What does a player do with the Plex one they have purchased it with isk?
If they are smart they relist it at a higher price |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:27:00 -
[123] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote: What does a player do with the Plex one they have purchased it with isk? If they are smart they relist it at a higher price
That's not my issue at that point, I have already made my money. Besides that margin is what, maybe a mil at most?
What else would a player do with a Plex once they have purchased it with isk. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:39:00 -
[124] - Quote
Mugged Yougot wrote:I have not bothered reading all your posts,
Well there's you first mistake. As you've just witnessed, it's not entirely wise to respond to someone's statements when you haven't even read them and obviously have not taken the time to try understanding them. Now I wonder: in your case, is this the result of stupidity or just laziness?
Mugged Yougot wrote:but you are supporting the OP, thus you are either supporting the idea of regulating plex-prices, or remove it completely, and my point still stands.
It's better to admit you were wrong in the first place than to try employing bad logic to retroactively justify your mistake and save face - and in so doing make yourself look incredibly obtuse. So far all I've debated is the idea that PLEX is a form of P2W. I have made no judgements or proscriptions of P2W or PLEX. In fact, I have not stated my own opinion on the matter of P2W at all. And you would have enough this if you'd read any of my posts. So again: Your mistake. Your ego won't let you apologize, but I forgive you anyway because I'm a nice guy and I believe in second chances.
Mugged Yougot wrote:Now go practice some yoga and suck your own ****, you homosexual.
There's no point in getting upset, boy. Remember, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". You could have avoided looking like an idiot and turning yourself into my biyatch by understanding what I was saying before responding and easing up on the assumptions. This is all entirely your own fault; don't be mad at me. |
Steel Wraith
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:44:00 -
[125] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Lt Angus wrote:Plex is great for noobs who dont want to grind their first bil and great for vets to play for free. Why anyone with more than 5mill SP would sell plex escapes me. Many people play the game to enjoy it...not to work at it.... I see many people playing on plex only, but their focus in game is to earn isk for that next plex.....so they can continue playing/working?
If someone enjoys the process of earning the isk they may not mind dropping some of it on a plex for game time. I don't know about grinding missions but I at least find exploration enjoyable. Hell, I even like designing/managing efficient PI colonies and could probably afford to pay for my account based on that.
But you have a point that, especially as a new player with lower isk-earning potential, you should make sure that you're enjoying your time in game and not just grinding it out. Just remember that paying your subscription with cash is effectively the same as buying a plex every month and selling for isk. |
Zircon Dasher
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:45:00 -
[126] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote: What does a player do with the Plex one they have purchased it with isk? If they are smart they relist it at a higher price That's not my issue at that point, I have already made my money. Besides that margin is what, maybe a mil at most? What else would a player do with a Plex once they have purchased it with isk.
Oh I'm sorry. I did not realize this was a srs thread.
Carry on. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:47:00 -
[127] - Quote
I doubt it ever really started as one. |
Steel Wraith
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:49:00 -
[128] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Mugged Yougot wrote:I have not bothered reading all your posts, Well there's you first mistake. As you've just witnessed, it's not entirely wise to respond to someone's statements when you haven't even read them and obviously have not taken the time to try understanding them. Now I wonder: in your case, is this the result of stupidity or just laziness?
When someone announces that they've won an argument on the internet and then starts typing about unzipping their pants, it's probably not worth the time to read whatever else they'd said, much less continue arguing with them. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:51:00 -
[129] - Quote
Steel Wraith wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Mugged Yougot wrote:I have not bothered reading all your posts, Well there's you first mistake. As you've just witnessed, it's not entirely wise to respond to someone's statements when you haven't even read them and obviously have not taken the time to try understanding them. Now I wonder: in your case, is this the result of stupidity or just laziness? When someone announces that they've won an argument on the internet and then starts typing about unzipping their pants, it's probably not worth the time to read whatever else they'd said, much less continue arguing with them.
Using present events to justify past actions is a little screwy. And by "screwy" I mean "a ******** person's excuse". |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:52:00 -
[130] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Mugged Yougot wrote:I have not bothered reading all your posts, Well there's you first mistake. As you've just witnessed, it's not entirely wise to respond to someone's statements when you haven't even read them and obviously have not taken the time to try understanding them. Now I wonder: in your case, is this the result of stupidity or just laziness? When someone announces that they've won an argument on the internet and then starts typing about unzipping their pants, it's probably not worth the time to read whatever else they'd said, much less continue arguing with them. Using present events to justify past actions is a little screwy. And by "screwy" I mean "a ******** person's excuse".
Actually you were saying things like that to Ranger1 yesterday as well. |
|
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:55:00 -
[131] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Mugged Yougot wrote:I have not bothered reading all your posts, Well there's you first mistake. As you've just witnessed, it's not entirely wise to respond to someone's statements when you haven't even read them and obviously have not taken the time to try understanding them. Now I wonder: in your case, is this the result of stupidity or just laziness? When someone announces that they've won an argument on the internet and then starts typing about unzipping their pants, it's probably not worth the time to read whatever else they'd said, much less continue arguing with them. Using present events to justify past actions is a little screwy. And by "screwy" I mean "a ******** person's excuse". Actually you were saying things like that to Ranger1 yesterday as well.
Well he couldn't have known that since he didn't read my posts. ;)
Do you want to be my boytoy, too? |
Xpaulusx
V I R I I Ineluctable.
37
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:55:00 -
[132] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! Bad idea, even though some like myself pay with credit card, it would lock alot of people out of the game, especially those with more than 2 accounts. Plex also drives our economy as well, it may have drastic consequences if removed as a result. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:59:00 -
[133] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:Steel Wraith wrote:Jacob Staffuer wrote:
Well there's you first mistake. As you've just witnessed, it's not entirely wise to respond to someone's statements when you haven't even read them and obviously have not taken the time to try understanding them. Now I wonder: in your case, is this the result of stupidity or just laziness?
When someone announces that they've won an argument on the internet and then starts typing about unzipping their pants, it's probably not worth the time to read whatever else they'd said, much less continue arguing with them. Using present events to justify past actions is a little screwy. And by "screwy" I mean "a ******** person's excuse". Actually you were saying things like that to Ranger1 yesterday as well. Well he couldn't have known that since he didn't read my posts. ;) Do you want to be my boytoy, too?
Sure, tell me your main's name and I'll come on over for a little wine and some sweet sweet lovin. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:02:00 -
[134] - Quote
|
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:03:00 -
[135] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:broken link
You ****** something up.
Don't tell me you're nothing more than pillowtalk and overcompensation now. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:06:00 -
[136] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:*desperate attempts at mudslinging*
Awww are you going to start smashing your toys against the floor now, too? |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
91
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:06:00 -
[137] - Quote
It's past your bedtime, your just getting cranky Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:09:00 -
[138] - Quote
The people making fools of themselves shouldn't be mad at me, they should be mad at themselves. |
Zircon Dasher
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:12:00 -
[139] - Quote
Xpaulusx wrote:Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! Bad idea, even though some like myself pay with credit card, it would lock alot of people out of the game, especially those with more than 2 accounts. Plex also drives our economy as well, it may have drastic consequences if removed as a result.
There are a lot of people who would not need more than 2 accounts if there was no such thing as plex. Sometimes 4 accounts will pay for themselves + give side money, where 2 accounts will not.
Additionally, less alt armies are not necessarily a bad thing for EVE or the economy. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 17:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Xpaulusx wrote:Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! Bad idea, even though some like myself pay with credit card, it would lock alot of people out of the game, especially those with more than 2 accounts. Plex also drives our economy as well, it may have drastic consequences if removed as a result. There are a lot of people who would not need more than 2 accounts if there was no such thing as plex. Sometimes 4 accounts will pay for themselves + give side money, where 2 accounts will not. Additionally, less alt armies are not necessarily a bad thing for EVE or the economy.
This is a very strong point. Most of the players I know who created 2nd, 3rd, and 4th accounts did so in order to chase that monthly PLEX. And if you read that blog with the mined quotes from the banned botters, many of them say things like "waa with my 4 bot accounts banned I'll never be able to afford my PLEX waaa waaa." |
|
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:18:00 -
[141] - Quote
Acknowledging that PLEX is a form of pay to win is far different than saying it should be removed from the game.
Currently, being a legal form of RMT that pays CCP instead of a sh*thead, it's a decent tool to fight illegal RMT.
However, it is still far from perfect. It's still a vehicle that bridges the real life world economy with the in game economy in a very direct way - which is ultimately a bad thing. But, at least the market decide's it's value rather than some ISK farmer with a bot army. |
Prince Kobol
518
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:19:00 -
[142] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:PLEX gives you access to "game time". ROFL. You don't trade it in for a time machine, you trade it in for isk.
By that logic, if I went and bought drugs its okay, because I'm buying the time it would take to go to Morocco where they're legal and get stoned off my ass and come back.
Trading PLEX for isk is an option, that is all.
You can be scammed out of it or lose it by getting your ship blown up.
The only guaranteed action that PLEX gives is adding 30 days account time.
Also you have the worst logic in the world lol |
GondriA
BLUE EAGLES Pinked
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:21:00 -
[143] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Acknowledging that PLEX is a form of pay to win is far different than saying it should be removed from the game.
Currently, being a legal form of RMT that pays CCP instead of a sh*thead, it's a decent tool to fight illegal RMT.
However, it is still far from perfect. It's still a vehicle that bridges the real life world economy with the in game economy in a very direct way - which is ultimately a bad thing. But, at least the market decide's it's value rather than some ISK farmer with a bot army.
why plex is a form of pay to win? |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:28:00 -
[144] - Quote
Alright, another more posts than I care to read, but points I see.
Pay for plex =/= pay to win
It does not actually give a substantial advantage over another player. The ships they can buy with that isk is not any more powerful than that which can be played to earn. They just can replace losses easier. The dollar cost of high end faction/caps etc is quite high and out of reach of a majority of players. It won't break game balance.
For combat where actual losses will make a difference is sov battle. However sov control is about numbers. If two 200 man fleets square off, lose 50 per side, and only one side spends to buy real ships, that does get an advantage. In terms of a hellcat fleet, 50 abaddons will mean 50 plex. That is alot of dollars. Most likely, that sort of player mix will never happen.
If an alliance was made up of pay to win players, they would probably be outnumbered so the pay to win would not give an advantage. Ergo in my opinion, plex does not cause an unfair advantage. It just means that those of us who don't buy and sell isk have to play a bit more careful and make sure our corp/alliance has ship replacement. I fly pvp to alliance specs, no extra cost on my part. |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:33:00 -
[145] - Quote
Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :(
/thread
OP is ********, to even trashtalk about PLEX.
|
Xpaulusx
V I R I I Ineluctable.
37
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 18:54:00 -
[146] - Quote
Both sides argueing over plex have valid points, heres a reality check, CCP wil never even remotely condider removing it from the game for obvious reasons, even with the problems it presents. CCP is finally dealing with RMT & Bot problems aggressively, so i would think that would be their position on not removing plex from the game.
|
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 19:00:00 -
[147] - Quote
GondriA wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Acknowledging that PLEX is a form of pay to win is far different than saying it should be removed from the game.
Currently, being a legal form of RMT that pays CCP instead of a sh*thead, it's a decent tool to fight illegal RMT.
However, it is still far from perfect. It's still a vehicle that bridges the real life world economy with the in game economy in a very direct way - which is ultimately a bad thing. But, at least the market decide's it's value rather than some ISK farmer with a bot army. why plex is a form of pay to win?
Already explained in my earlier posts in this thread. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 19:04:00 -
[148] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote: It just means that those of us who don't buy and sell isk have to play a bit more careful and make sure our corp/alliance has ship replacement.
Precisely, they have to play to win rather than pay to win.
Playing to earn isk is playing to win. Paying $$ for isk is paying to win. Isk is not the only factor for victory, however it isk is a form of power in EVE. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5929
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 19:10:00 -
[149] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:GondriA wrote:why plex is a form of pay to win? Already explained in my earlier posts in this thread. GǪand it still isn't.
PLEX adds nothing to the game, and that alone completely removes any chance of it being P2W. Also, you're not getting any kind of GÇ£winGÇ¥ for your money. You're paying for game time GÇö that's all GÇö and you trade that game time for the exact same things as everyone else already has and uses. If PLEX is pay-to-win, then so is station-trading with a subscribed account. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 20:04:00 -
[150] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:GondriA wrote:why plex is a form of pay to win? Already explained in my earlier posts in this thread. GǪand it still isn't. PLEX adds nothing to the game, and that alone completely removes any chance of it being P2W. Also, you're not getting any kind of GÇ£winGÇ¥ for your money. You're paying for game time GÇö that's all GÇö and you trade that game time for the exact same things as everyone else already has and uses. If PLEX is pay-to-win, then so is station-trading with a subscribed account.
If only that were true. Unfortunately, it's not.
If you were actually paying for game time then you would just pay the subscription fee. People who buy PLEX with $$ are not doing it for the game time.
PLEX adding or subracting anything from the game does not change the fact that it's a vehicle to convert $$ to ISK. Does illegal RMT add anything to the game? No more or less than PLEX does. The difference between PLEX (legal RMT) and illegal RMT is that CCP gets the $$ and the market controls the amount of ISK you get for $$.
To be clear, I'm not talking about the person purchasing PLEX with ISK in the slightest. They are not the ones converting $$ to ISK regardless of them being a necessity for the conversion to take place. What they do with the PLEX after buying it with ISK is irrelevant. They could turn it into aurum or eject it into space, it makes no difference. The point is that PLEX is a vehicle to convert $$ into ISK, which is the basic principle of pay to win.
And again, in case it's not obvious, people with a purchased advantage can still lose but that does not negate the fact that they purchased an in game advantage with real $$. |
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1465
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 20:47:00 -
[151] - Quote
Oh my, this discussion again ...
Why don't people just link to the old ones ... Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5931
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 20:57:00 -
[152] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:If you were actually paying for game time then you would just pay the subscription fee. People who buy PLEX with $$ are not doing it for the game time. GǪwhich doesn't matter. The fact remains that PLEX don't provide anything that isn't already available in the game to anyone and everyone. You're not buying anything that provides more or less GÇ£winGÇ¥ than would exist without that payment. You're getting the exact same thing that everyone else already have; you're getting the exact same thing that everyone else already use. Nothing new and GÇö more importantly GÇö nothing special is added. You're not gaining any kind of advantage just because you paid real money.
It is therefore not pay to win any more than paying your subscription and station-trading is P2W (i.e. not at all).
It is a form of RMT, but that is something completely unrelated and completely different. Don't confuse the two.
Quote:And again, in case it's not obvious, people with a purchased advantage can still lose But that's just it: using real cash doesn't let you purchase any special advantage.
Quote:The point is that PLEX is a vehicle to convert $$ into ISK, which is the basic principle of pay to win. No. The basic principle of P2W is that, buy paying money, you gain special advantages over those who do not pay. PLEX does not let you do that because there is nothing special you can buy with it GÇö in fact, PLEX doesn't even add anything to the game, but actually removes stuff, so it's about as far away from P2W as you could possible get. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:06:00 -
[153] - Quote
Just because you can play to earn the same ISK that you can convert $$ into via PLEX doesn't mean you aren't buying an advantage. It doesn't have to be a special item to be pay to win.
In a game that has experience levels, purchasing experience levels with $$ would be pay to win. Even if you can also play and earn them. The person paying $$ is getting them faster, this is an advantage.
The same applies to ISK in EVE.
The whole point here is play to win vs. pay to win. If you're paying $$ instead of playing to earn the same thing then you are PAYING not playing. It's really that simple. Playing = playing, paying $$ = paying. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5931
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:16:00 -
[154] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Just because you can play to earn the same ISK that you can convert $$ into via PLEX doesn't mean you aren't buying an advantage. Actually, that's exactly what it means.
If, by paying real money, you're not getting something above and beyond what people who aren't paying are getting, then there is no advantage and no P2W.
Quote:The person paying $$ is getting them faster, this is an advantage. It's an advantage if the speed makes any difference. Here, like in so many other cases, it doesn't. It's an advantage if ISK were like levels and more X beats less X, but again, that's not the case.
Again, the simple fact remains: you're not adding anything to the game that wasn't already there; you're not buying anything that wouldn't exist without the payment; you're not buying anything that is uniquely tied to you paying money; you're not getting any kind of advantage over those who do not pay.
You're still simply talking about RMT and confusing it with P2W GÇö they are completely different things. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:24:00 -
[155] - Quote
RMT leads directly P2W. It creates an unnatural imbalance by providing the $$ payer something that they did not earn via playing the game. Clearly you have an opinion that this isn't the case. And, as they say, you cannot argue opinion. Therefor, I'm done here.
Good day.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5931
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:25:00 -
[156] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:RMT leads directly P2W. GǪif you can buy advantages with the money. Luckily, in EVE, you can't. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:32:00 -
[157] - Quote
Again I point to my scenario's on page 5 and ask where the advantage is if you pit isk seller against a guy who plays several accounts and siphons his isk to one primary account. They are earning the same amount of isk (in fact the multiple account guy can actually earn much much more), and they are both buying the same equipment. And yet one appears to be cool with the public because he is running each account and the other is a bad guy because he hires a person to do the work for him. |
Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
310
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:40:00 -
[158] - Quote
Much as I use the plex system, I gotta agree, the whole affair is kind of a pay to win...
When you can recoup a ship loss in a day without having to go through the pain because you can offer real world money to do so - that's an unfair advantage and is most definitely pay to win.
CSM7 Skype Leak
|
GondriA
BLUE EAGLES Pinked
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:49:00 -
[159] - Quote
Revolution Rising wrote:Much as I use the plex system, I gotta agree, the whole affair is kind of a pay to win...
When you can recoup a ship loss in a day without having to go through the pain because you can offer real world money to do so - that's an unfair advantage and is most definitely pay to win.
u can recoup that loss with out it easy... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1192
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 21:54:00 -
[160] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Just because you can play to earn the same ISK that you can convert $$ into via PLEX doesn't mean you aren't buying an advantage. It doesn't have to be a special item to be pay to win.
This is where you are mistaken. Buying ISK leads to gaining advantage over someone who has to earn the ISK: you can get back to the pew-pew faster. This is not pay to win, since P2W is specifically the ability to pay real money for items that cannot be gathered through in-game means. The closest that EVE has to "pay to win" are the Alliance Tournament memorial ships. EVE does have "pay to burn" though, where you can buy a monocle for $70, if you're the type that like to troll the forums and pretend to be hoity-toity.
Does PLEX give you an advantage? Yes, but only by saving you time. Pay 2 Win happens when you can buy items which give you an advantage over everyone else due to those items being better: the only example in that linked article where this was possible is the game designed around the principle of players buying weapons with real money.
PLEX is a form of micro transaction currency (in the credit card processor sense of "micro transactions"). There is a third issue at hand which is "virtual items stores" which issue items into the game fully manufactured, bypassing the player economy: this is only really an issue in EVE since games like LoL and LOTRO don't have much scope for items being traded between players. |
|
supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group Ayn Sof Aur
63
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 22:17:00 -
[161] - Quote
You are all idiots...
Plex is pay to win cause plex is pay RL money for BETTER things than you can afford.
If I can't afford a carrier ATM... but I buy 2 plex and now I can... I have a MUCH bigger "gun" PAY TO WIN.
Now even bigger if you have the cash... plex to win a super carrier... titan... officer mods... etc etc...
CCP should remove PLEX and selling chars (thats MAJOR pay to win)...
Sorry it is pay to win. I do not care what people call something... words change over time. |
Daemon Ceed
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 22:20:00 -
[162] - Quote
Just when I thought I've already heard the most idiotic thing today, OP decides to one-up it. 0/10. Post with your main or GTFO! |
Brutorthegreat
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 22:20:00 -
[163] - Quote
The 99% are restless again... | -áFour Horsemen of the Apocalypse [THE4] | Dedicated Caldari Faction Warfare Corporation | Since December 2009 | -á-á |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 00:12:00 -
[164] - Quote
Brutorthegreat wrote:The 99% are restless again... And the 1% are indifferent to their whining.
The anti-PLEX, pay-to-win folks in this thread seem to be hung up on this notion of fairness.
Lesson One, kids - learn it young, learn it well: Life. Ain't. Fair.
I'm old and established. I have a RL job that pays me about 2B ISK/hr at current market rates, but also ties up nearly all of my waking hours.
You're 14 and you live in a trailer park with your mom. You can sit around and play EVE 37 hours a week on your five year old Gateway computer, but you don't have two nickels to rub together. You can make 2B a day in pretend space money, but coming up with that monthly $15 is a real PITA because you're too fat to push a lawn mower and if you go outside for more than five minutes on a sunny day you'll explode you pasty vampire ****.
Now under capitalism, we call this a "market". I have money, and you have time to sell. Let's deal.
Oh, but wait. Now it's "not fair." Because I paid some pimply slob to grind my iskies for me. Is it unfair to my neighbors if I pay a guy to mow my lawn, too? Does my neighbor get to go "It's unfair he has that nice lawn, he just pays some guy to cut it. They should ban lawn services and make everyone cut their own grass." No. Pound sand, neighbor. Shoulda put in the OT last month, you lazy bastard but NOOOO you wanted to go visit wine country with your trophy wife and you're ******** kids.
**** fair. **** fair right in the pooper. There's no such thing. Take a lesson kids, if you have money it means you get to buy your way out of the boring **** in life. Apply yourself in school, don't blow your money on stupid ****, don't get yourself in debt, make good choices and start a good career in a growth industry. And someday you too can pay fat poor kids to grind fake space money for you.
Fair can burn in Hell.
I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post. |
Cinder Rayas
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 00:22:00 -
[165] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Brutorthegreat wrote:The 99% are restless again... And the 1% are indifferent to their whining. The anti-PLEX, pay-to-win folks in this thread seem to be hung up on this notion of fairness. Lesson One, kids - learn it young, learn it well: Life. Ain't. Fair. I'm old and established. I have a RL job that pays me about 2B ISK/hr at current market rates, but also ties up nearly all of my waking hours. You're 14 and you live in a trailer park with your mom. You can sit around and play EVE 37 hours a week on your five year old Gateway computer, but you don't have two nickels to rub together. You can make 2B a day in pretend space money, but coming up with that monthly $15 is a real PITA because you're too fat to push a lawn mower and if you go outside for more than five minutes on a sunny day you'll explode you pasty vampire ****. Now under capitalism, we call this a "market". I have money, and you have time to sell. Let's deal. Oh, but wait. Now it's "not fair." Because I paid some pimply slob to grind my iskies for me. Is it unfair to my neighbors if I pay a guy to mow my lawn, too? Does my neighbor get to go "It's unfair he has that nice lawn, he just pays some guy to cut it. They should ban lawn services and make everyone cut their own grass." No. Pound sand, neighbor. Shoulda put in the OT last month, you lazy bastard but NOOOO you wanted to go visit wine country with your trophy wife and you're ******** kids. **** fair. **** fair right in the pooper. There's no such thing. Take a lesson kids, if you have money it means you get to buy your way out of the boring **** in life. Apply yourself in school, don't blow your money on stupid ****, don't get yourself in debt, make good choices and start a good career in a growth industry. And someday you too can pay fat poor kids to grind fake space money for you. Fair can burn in Hell. I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post.
I actually earn more than that, but still believe that RMT and/or P2W is bad and do not partake in it. |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
92
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 00:36:00 -
[166] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Brutorthegreat wrote:The 99% are restless again... And the 1% are indifferent to their whining. The anti-PLEX, pay-to-win folks in this thread seem to be hung up on this notion of fairness. Lesson One, kids - learn it young, learn it well: Life. Ain't. Fair. I'm old and established. I have a RL job that pays me about 2B ISK/hr at current market rates, but also ties up nearly all of my waking hours. You're 14 and you live in a trailer park with your mom. You can sit around and play EVE 37 hours a week on your five year old Gateway computer, but you don't have two nickels to rub together. You can make 2B a day in pretend space money, but coming up with that monthly $15 is a real PITA because you're too fat to push a lawn mower and if you go outside for more than five minutes on a sunny day you'll explode you pasty vampire ****. Now under capitalism, we call this a "market". I have money, and you have time to sell. Let's deal. Oh, but wait. Now it's "not fair." Because I paid some pimply slob to grind my iskies for me. Is it unfair to my neighbors if I pay a guy to mow my lawn, too? Does my neighbor get to go "It's unfair he has that nice lawn, he just pays some guy to cut it. They should ban lawn services and make everyone cut their own grass." No. Pound sand, neighbor. Shoulda put in the OT last month, you lazy bastard but NOOOO you wanted to go visit wine country with your trophy wife and you're ******** kids. **** fair. **** fair right in the pooper. There's no such thing. Take a lesson kids, if you have money it means you get to buy your way out of the boring **** in life. Apply yourself in school, don't blow your money on stupid ****, don't get yourself in debt, make good choices and start a good career in a growth industry. And someday you too can pay fat poor kids to grind fake space money for you. Fair can burn in Hell. I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post.
Bravo sir!
Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
266
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 00:50:00 -
[167] - Quote
I'm a well-paid college graduate IRL (who studied a difficult major at a good school). Your argument "you're poor, I'm rich, neener neener" is wasted on me, and is childish to boot.
Anyone who even has so much as a paper route could buy PLEX. The problem? It's not right.
It's real money for moon money. It is blatant extortion by CCP and it defeats the whole purpose of EVE as a supposed "economy game". You can be uber smart and play the market and make 1 billion isk an hour. Or you can just go to work and make 2 billion isk an hour. So what this means is that it's not even worth your time to play this game, if the goal is to make money.
Likewise, if your goal is to have a high SP pilot, it's not worth it to undock, since your level 5 implants might be blown up.
It's a game that's designed so that NOT playing it gives you a marked advantage, and that's BS, considering that I might want to play once in a while.
At any rate, once you have to look after dependents, you'll realize that you can't just blow $200 a month on moon money because expenses add up and often need to be trimmed wherever possible. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 01:29:00 -
[168] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:At any rate, once you have to look after dependents, you'll realize that you can't just blow $200 a month on moon money because expenses add up and often need to be trimmed wherever possible. And there is the root of the argument laid bare.
"I can't afford to buy PLEX, so you shouldn't be allowed to either."
See: Fair
|
Ai Shun
604
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 02:50:00 -
[169] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:At any rate, once you have to look after dependents, you'll realize that you can't just blow $200 a month on moon money because expenses add up and often need to be trimmed wherever possible.
I have two daughters. And an ex partner I support who lives away from us. And I still manage to buy a few PLEX every once in a while so I can spend my TIME with my family instead of grinding to make ISK. It is more affordable to spend $100 or $200 on PLEX to get ISK than it is to grind L4 missions or whatever to make the ISK. Instead, I can do what I enjoy in the game.
So how about - if you don't like PLEX or can't afford it - don't buy it. Go enjoy yourself. But leave the rest of us out of your style of playing, hmmmkay? |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
266
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 03:18:00 -
[170] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Aranakas wrote:At any rate, once you have to look after dependents, you'll realize that you can't just blow $200 a month on moon money because expenses add up and often need to be trimmed wherever possible. And there is the root of the argument laid bare. "I can't afford to buy PLEX, so you shouldn't be allowed to either." See: Fair
I don't think you grasp the concept that I'm trying to convey. Even if you had a billion dollars, it wouldn't be worth it to trade any amount of money for monopoly money to cheat at monopoly with.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
I can definitely afford to buy PLEX, but I'd rather take my girlfriend out. No matter much money I had, I would never buy PLEX. It is a blatant rip-off and it makes a joke of this "economy"-based game. |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
222
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 03:20:00 -
[171] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote:Aranakas wrote:At any rate, once you have to look after dependents, you'll realize that you can't just blow $200 a month on moon money because expenses add up and often need to be trimmed wherever possible. And there is the root of the argument laid bare. "I can't afford to buy PLEX, so you shouldn't be allowed to either." See: Fair I don't think you grasp the concept that I'm trying to convey. Even if you had a billion dollars, it wouldn't be worth it to trade any amount of money for monopoly money to cheat at monopoly with. A fool and his money are soon parted.
Even responsible parents have hobbies. See also: bowling league dues and expenses.
It might not be $200 to the dollar, but it's not unreasonable to have a hobby that consumes some of your free time and money, even if you're a parent or guardian.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 03:26:00 -
[172] - Quote
That Johnnie Walker dude is a bad,bad man.... |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
203
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 05:38:00 -
[173] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote:Aranakas wrote:At any rate, once you have to look after dependents, you'll realize that you can't just blow $200 a month on moon money because expenses add up and often need to be trimmed wherever possible. And there is the root of the argument laid bare. "I can't afford to buy PLEX, so you shouldn't be allowed to either." See: Fair I don't think you grasp the concept that I'm trying to convey. Even if you had a billion dollars, it wouldn't be worth it to trade any amount of money for monopoly money to cheat at monopoly with. A fool and his money are soon parted. I can definitely afford to buy PLEX, but I'd rather take my girlfriend out. No matter much money I had, I would never buy PLEX. It is a blatant rip-off and it makes a joke of this "economy"-based game.
To use your own expression at the beginning of the thread; I worked for my money. With that said I'll spend it however I want whether it be ammo (which would be about 20 .308 rounds), Plex, or blow and hookers.
If you think spending money on the mmo is a total waste, you should cancel your account right now because everything that you are putting into it you will never ever get back for when you do decide to leave. The way I see it, buying 2 months plex is the equivalent of opening a second account for 2 months.
Welcome to the fool's club. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
413
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 06:54:00 -
[174] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:If you think spending money on the mmo is a total waste, you should cancel your account right now because everything that you are putting into it you will never ever get back for when you do decide to leave. The way I see it, buying 2 months plex is the equivalent of opening a second account for 2 months. Pretty much, you're trading one thing for another. Money (with CCP only of course), time shooting red crosses, time shooting rocks, time abusing your shiny ship in totally balanced highsec incursions, time working the market, time being CEO of an ~elite pvp~ merc corp, etc etc Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
412
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 08:50:00 -
[175] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote: And the 1% are indifferent to their whining.
The anti-PLEX, pay-to-win folks in this thread seem to be hung up on this notion of fairness.
Lesson One, kids - learn it young, learn it well: Life. Ain't. Fair.
I'm old and established. I have a RL job that pays me about 2B ISK/hr at current market rates, but also ties up nearly all of my waking hours.
You're 14 and you live in a trailer park with your mom. You can sit around and play EVE 37 hours a week on your five year old Gateway computer, but you don't have two nickels to rub together. You can make 2B a day in pretend space money, but coming up with that monthly $15 is a real PITA because you're too fat to push a lawn mower and if you go outside for more than five minutes on a sunny day you'll explode you pasty vampire ****.
Now under capitalism, we call this a "market". I have money, and you have time to sell. Let's deal.
Oh, but wait. Now it's "not fair." Because I paid some pimply slob to grind my iskies for me. Is it unfair to my neighbors if I pay a guy to mow my lawn, too? Does my neighbor get to go "It's unfair he has that nice lawn, he just pays some guy to cut it. They should ban lawn services and make everyone cut their own grass." No. Pound sand, neighbor. Shoulda put in the OT last month, you lazy bastard but NOOOO you wanted to go visit wine country with your trophy wife and you're ******** kids.
**** fair. **** fair right in the pooper. There's no such thing. Take a lesson kids, if you have money it means you get to buy your way out of the boring **** in life. Apply yourself in school, don't blow your money on stupid ****, don't get yourself in debt, make good choices and start a good career in a growth industry. And someday you too can pay fat poor kids to grind fake space money for you.
Fair can burn in Hell.
I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post.
Bravo Good sir :) Well said! Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Ai Shun
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 09:01:00 -
[176] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post.
*raises glass*
Thank you, Johnnie.
|
Hroya
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 09:06:00 -
[177] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Brutorthegreat wrote:The 99% are restless again... And the 1% are indifferent to their whining. The anti-PLEX, pay-to-win folks in this thread seem to be hung up on this notion of fairness. Lesson One, kids - learn it young, learn it well: Life. Ain't. Fair. I'm old and established. I have a RL job that pays me about 2B ISK/hr at current market rates, but also ties up nearly all of my waking hours. You're 14 and you live in a trailer park with your mom. You can sit around and play EVE 37 hours a week on your five year old Gateway computer, but you don't have two nickels to rub together. You can make 2B a day in pretend space money, but coming up with that monthly $15 is a real PITA because you're too fat to push a lawn mower and if you go outside for more than five minutes on a sunny day you'll explode you pasty vampire ****. Now under capitalism, we call this a "market". I have money, and you have time to sell. Let's deal. Oh, but wait. Now it's "not fair." Because I paid some pimply slob to grind my iskies for me. Is it unfair to my neighbors if I pay a guy to mow my lawn, too? Does my neighbor get to go "It's unfair he has that nice lawn, he just pays some guy to cut it. They should ban lawn services and make everyone cut their own grass." No. Pound sand, neighbor. Shoulda put in the OT last month, you lazy bastard but NOOOO you wanted to go visit wine country with your trophy wife and you're ******** kids. **** fair. **** fair right in the pooper. There's no such thing. Take a lesson kids, if you have money it means you get to buy your way out of the boring **** in life. Apply yourself in school, don't blow your money on stupid ****, don't get yourself in debt, make good choices and start a good career in a growth industry. And someday you too can pay fat poor kids to grind fake space money for you. Fair can burn in Hell. I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post.
The pinicle of evolution. While you make a good post and there is hardly much to argue against it, it is also in a way a sign of faillure.
But rest assured, our lifespans arent long enough to make up our own minds and just make sure we toddle along the design like a lam taken to the slaughter.
You go your corridor but. |
March rabbit
Ganse Legion of xXDEATHXx
151
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 09:14:00 -
[178] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! just refreshed subscription of my 2 accounts for next 12 months using real money. so what is PLEX again? |
Danfen Fenix
Vita Aequitas Veritas The Paganism Alliance
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 09:17:00 -
[179] - Quote
I still don't get the whole "plex is PTW" arguement...
Lets look at it like this:
I play this game using PLEX I buy off the market. Its been working out quite well so far. Someone bought that PLEX (gametime), and sold it to me, for my ISK, that I earned with my gametime. They have not bought anything 'extra', they have not bought any win. They have simply gained some of my assets for their assets (my isk for their gametime). In the same way I can gain their ISK, for my loot, or my ships, or my minerals.
Could it be seen as the 'transfer of 'win'' ? Possibly, but that win is already in the game...and trust me, I personally am in no place to actually transfer any 'win' to another player
So in the end, game time has been added to the game. No ISK, or any gameplay mechanics or items have. No 'win' has been added to the game, it has simply...possibly...changed hands, if 'ISK' is how you view 'Win'.
And if anything, ISK has also left the economy in the form of broker payments and so on. You could say the transferral of PLEX itself is a minor ISK sink |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1466
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 10:58:00 -
[180] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Brutorthegreat wrote:The 99% are restless again... And the 1% are indifferent to their whining. The anti-PLEX, pay-to-win folks in this thread seem to be hung up on this notion of fairness. Lesson One, kids - learn it young, learn it well: Life. Ain't. Fair. I'm old and established. I have a RL job that pays me about 2B ISK/hr at current market rates, but also ties up nearly all of my waking hours. You're 14 and you live in a trailer park with your mom. You can sit around and play EVE 37 hours a week on your five year old Gateway computer, but you don't have two nickels to rub together. You can make 2B a day in pretend space money, but coming up with that monthly $15 is a real PITA because you're too fat to push a lawn mower and if you go outside for more than five minutes on a sunny day you'll explode you pasty vampire ****. Now under capitalism, we call this a "market". I have money, and you have time to sell. Let's deal. Oh, but wait. Now it's "not fair." Because I paid some pimply slob to grind my iskies for me. Is it unfair to my neighbors if I pay a guy to mow my lawn, too? Does my neighbor get to go "It's unfair he has that nice lawn, he just pays some guy to cut it. They should ban lawn services and make everyone cut their own grass." No. Pound sand, neighbor. Shoulda put in the OT last month, you lazy bastard but NOOOO you wanted to go visit wine country with your trophy wife and you're ******** kids. **** fair. **** fair right in the pooper. There's no such thing. Take a lesson kids, if you have money it means you get to buy your way out of the boring **** in life. Apply yourself in school, don't blow your money on stupid ****, don't get yourself in debt, make good choices and start a good career in a growth industry. And someday you too can pay fat poor kids to grind fake space money for you. Fair can burn in Hell. I'd like to thank Johnnie Walker for his help in writing this post.
+1 Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1193
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 11:08:00 -
[181] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:A fool and his money are soon parted.
Exactly. People who buy ISK using PLEX are fools, no? They are easily parted from their money. In the meantime they provide entertainment to the people who blow them up.
Aranakas wrote:I can definitely afford to buy PLEX, but I'd rather take my girlfriend out. No matter much money I had, I would never buy PLEX. It is a blatant rip-off and it makes a joke of this "economy"-based game.
Imagine hypothetical person X, who can afford to buy PLEX and can afford to take his girlfriend out. If X grinds for ISK, X has no time to take his girlfriend out. So X buys PLEX to sell for ISK in-game: ISK that someone with more time or ISK-making sense had available to trade for 30 days of game time.
For every person like you who is of the opinion that RMT of any form is evil, there is at least one person who thinks trading real money for ISK is fine, and another who thinks that the challenge of raising the ISK each month to pay for the subscription is enjoyable.
Different strokes to move the world, and all that.
|
Christine Peeveepeeski
Killing With Kindness The Obsidian Front
69
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 11:22:00 -
[182] - Quote
Didn't read whole thread, sorry if the following makes no sense but....
I bought plex with my hard earned money and sold it for plex. What did I win? As far as I can tell all I won was the time it took to grind it up instead :/
Don't get me wrong, I don't always do it.. only when RL has gotten under my feet and my eve time has been reduced. Still unsure what I've won... when do I get it? |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
74
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 11:57:00 -
[183] - Quote
supersexysucker wrote:You are all idiots...
Plex is pay to win cause plex is pay RL money for BETTER things than you can afford.
If I can't afford a carrier ATM... but I buy 2 plex and now I can... I have a MUCH bigger "gun" PAY TO WIN.
Now even bigger if you have the cash... plex to win a super carrier... titan... officer mods... etc etc...
CCP should remove PLEX and selling chars (thats MAJOR pay to win)...
Sorry it is pay to win. I do not care what people call something... words change over time.
+1 You want fries with that? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5933
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 12:11:00 -
[184] - Quote
supersexysucker wrote:Plex is pay to win cause plex is pay RL money for BETTER things than you can afford.
If I can't afford a carrier ATM... but I buy 2 plex and now I can... I have a MUCH bigger "gun" PAY TO WIN. GǪexcept that those things are affordable and available even without PLEX. So you're not gaining any specific advantage just because you're paying cash for it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 13:04:00 -
[185] - Quote
Vanir Tsero wrote:You clearly don't understand what "Pay to Win" actually is.
Pay To Win is where you pay real money for ships that are not obtainable in game with Isk.
For Example:
If CCP Sold a Tech 4 Battlecruiser for $25.00 That is considered Pay to Win. If CCP Sold Tech 3 Ammo for $15.00 for a count of 5,000 That is considered Pay To Win.
If CCP Sold an In-Game item for $20.00 that can be traded in game for in-game currency... That is NOT Pay To Win. Why? Because it gives noone an advantage. The 600,000,000 ISK I got from selling the Plex on the market, 7,000 other players just made by running Incursions for a few hours.
Your ignorance bothers me for some reason. :(
I actually like to see pay to win in this game, since you can lose it all! That's why I don't bother for PLEX. I really like to enjoy killmails telling the story of a precious and exclusive T4 Dreadnought ripped apart. I can already feel the bliss of someone's tears rolling down rich cheeks. I am worried about non-destructable designer jeans though...
Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing. |
Deryk Kyeld
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 13:05:00 -
[186] - Quote
LOL OP you're a loser, stop worrying about how people use their IRL money to pay to play internet spaceships. Anyone who thinks selling PLEX for ISK gives you an unfair advantage is an idiot. You're foregoing a month of play-time and being payed in ISK for it , where's the disadvantage to others outside that transaction? |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 14:16:00 -
[187] - Quote
I thought the idea of the game was to have fun? If someone has limited funds or time in RL and CCP offers them a legitimate way to get some ISK to spend on having fun in the game, who cares.
I'm against people buying advantages with RL cash, I've seen it in other games and heard people gloating about it, but I don't see a problem with PLEX, it counters the ISK sellers, gives CCP revenue, helps people to continue playing the game and allows those selling the PLEX/GTC to simply enjoy the game in the same was as someone who went out to grind the ISK with no particular advantage.
If I felt that there were special perks being afforded with PLEX/GTC then I'd be against them, but if it allows others to keep playing and allows those using them to make up for their lack of time in the game, why not, everybody wins in the end. Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
457
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 17:07:00 -
[188] - Quote
GondriA wrote: why plex is a form of pay to win?
There will always be a significant percentage of players (read n00bs) who fervently believe that bigger ships and shinies = automatically winning every fight. These are usually the people who need to be ganked a little more, so that they learn that just like in real life, you get ahead through who you know and who your friends are, and how many of them you have.
Now you just go ahead and drop those dreads on someone's POS. The dreads with officer modules you bought with PLEX. Pay to win, right? Except the guy knows someone who has a certain alliance that specializes in supercaps on "speed dial" and those guys are bored and always looking for an excuse to gank with their Nyxes and Titans... and suddenly "pay to win" turns into "ohsheet cyno, 40 subcaps, we're bubbled and here come the fighter bombers...."
Noobs will never understand that ISK has always been irrelevant in EVE. EVE is won through skills and more importantly - friends. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 20:51:00 -
[189] - Quote
There's a difference between buying a game of monopoly for $20 and the banker suddenly declaring in the middle of the game that he'll accept $20 bills for $1000 in game money. It ruins the spirit of the game. The fools who give the banker their money may think they've won, but all they've done is cheated themselves AND the other players and made a crooked banker a little richer.
And if isk isn't winning the game, I don't know what is. EVE is always sold as an economy game. If there's no reason to have isk, why do alliances fight over tech moons? Obviously having isk in this game goes some way towards winning whatever anyone's definition is. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
236
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 21:37:00 -
[190] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:There's a difference between buying a game of monopoly for $20 and the banker suddenly declaring in the middle of the game that he'll accept $20 bills for $1000 in game money. It ruins the spirit of the game. The fools who give the banker their money may think they've won, but all they've done is cheated themselves AND the other players and made a crooked banker a little richer.
And if isk isn't winning the game, I don't know what is. EVE is always sold as an economy game. If there's no reason to have isk, why do alliances fight over tech moons? Obviously having isk in this game goes some way towards winning whatever anyone's definition is.
The problem with the example above is not that you would be giving the banker $20 to hand out money, you would be giving a different player $20 to give you his money. You are paying another player for his time at the game, but potentially putting him in a low money situation. You are paying for teamwork, hiring help, however you want to call it out, but the banker (ie CCP) is not throwing out money at random. I don't always finish my commentary, but when I do |
|
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 21:48:00 -
[191] - Quote
Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back). |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 22:56:00 -
[192] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).
Why do you bother paying your sub if you don't view EVE as a 'real game'?
Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Ai Shun
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 23:07:00 -
[193] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).
Thus far the majority of players responding in this thread disagree with you. And CCP, by making PLEX available, does as well. The rules of this game is different to Monopoly.
You don't have to like the rules of EVE. You just have to accept that others will and will use those rules. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 23:10:00 -
[194] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote: To use your own expression at the beginning of the thread; I worked for my money. With that said I'll spend it however I want whether it be ammo (which would be about 20 .308 rounds), Plex, or blow and hookers.
Exactly. And lest anyone think my personal priorities misplaced, I assure you good people they are not.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/hatch/priorities.jpg
EDIT TO ADD: I *wish* EVE was my most expensive hobby. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1479
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 23:42:00 -
[195] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back).
Yeah, just like if you spent $20 in a poker game to get more chips, it's still chea.... oh wait, no it's not.
Different game, different rules, much like EVE. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
268
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 23:54:00 -
[196] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Aranakas wrote:Giving someone $20 to give you his monopoly money is still cheating and if you did that in a real game, you'd get kicked out by the other players (or at least, not invited back). Yeah, just like if you spent $20 in a poker game to get more chips, it's still chea.... oh wait, no it's not. Different game, different rules, much like EVE.
Poker chips are essentially cash, except the casino can tax you when you cash them back. EVE isn't a gambling game or CCP would let you cash out your isk.
The goal of both monopoly and EVE is to get rich (for many players), and it is advertised as an economy game. Except not playing EVE gives you the advantage because you can make more money out of game than in it. If EVE isn't an economy game and wealth confers no advantages, It's false advertising, and CCP might as well fire that economist they keep on staff and stop posting all these figures and market details.
Once again, in simple terms:
DOES WEALTH CONFER ANY ADVANTAGES?
Yes: PLEX is pay to win No: EVE is not an economy game |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
645
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:08:00 -
[197] - Quote
Aranakas wrote: DOES WEALTH CONFER ANY ADVANTAGES?
Yes: PLEX is pay to win No: EVE is not an economy game
Yes: you can more easily replace losses. No: doesn't give you a lick of skill, and you will likely lose everything if you think more money = win.
An advantage does not = win. It just gives you a better chance than if you did not have that advantage. |
GondriA
BLUE EAGLES Pinked
6
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Posted - 2012.04.07 00:13:00 -
[198] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:[quote=Ranger 1][quote=Aranakas] No: EVE is not an economy game
Another mistake u do but that i will let u to learn that in time.... |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
268
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:29:00 -
[199] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Aranakas wrote: DOES WEALTH CONFER ANY ADVANTAGES?
Yes: PLEX is pay to win No: EVE is not an economy game
Yes: you can more easily replace losses. No: doesn't give you a lick of skill, and you will likely lose everything if you think more money = win. An advantage does not = win. It just gives you a better chance than if you did not have that advantage.
Let's try some Redacto ad Absurdum here.
CCP has stated that they wish to control the price of PLEX so 1 PLEX always sells for a controlled amount.
So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.
"Good for him". You might say. Sure, someone who spends a million dollars on a videogame can do whatever the hell he liked in his videogame.
But would it be fun? It would **** up the entire economy and probably make the game a mess.
It's only because most people don't PLEX to that extent that the game remains balanced, though it is still an imbalancing factor in the game. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
414
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:30:00 -
[200] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.
That would affect the plex market a good deal, surely. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
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Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
268
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:36:00 -
[201] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Aranakas wrote:So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.
That would affect the plex market a good deal, surely.
It would crash the PLEX market. CCP would probably stop selling PLEX at that point so as to avoid further collapse. Then what happens? This mad PLEXer has a monopoly on the PLEX market.
No matter what happens, that much PLEX being bought would **** up the game. It doesn't have to be 1 player doing all the buying to **** it up. In fact, any players doing any PLEX buying fucks up the game, just on a smaller scale.
So what's the point of PLEX? If an infinitely reproducable item is being sold, the logical desire is to sell as much of it as possible. But if CCP sold as much PLEX as possible, it would destroy the game experience of EVE (but it would make them rich). It's inherently a bad system for the players. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
195
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:38:00 -
[202] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:ISK does not garauntee "Win". PLEX-selling ISK is not different than normal-earned ISK. And earning ISK is a competitive challenge (can be, though), it's just time-consuming.
^ I agree with this.
Plex for isk is no real advantage.
Who has the biggest advantage, someone who can play 12 hours a day compared to someone who can only play 2 hours, when compared to someone who buys/uses PLEX compared to someone that does not?
Get rid of PLEX and limit game time might make the playing field more level, but I can't see anyone agreeing to that. Unless they only play 2 hours a day and don't buy or use PLEX.
I can't think of an MMO that has a truly level playing field, because it's not just in-game that effects the outcome. |
Steel Wraith
41
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Posted - 2012.04.07 00:41:00 -
[203] - Quote
Another reason why RMT is not allowed yet Plex is, in addition to RMT encouraging botters, for those who care:
With RMT, because you can convert from $$ to isk back to $$, mmo gold (isk) is sometimes used as currency for various nefarious activities like renting botnets, paying for pay-per-install malware distribution, buying hacked email accounts etc. Using isk this way would be bad for CCP.
--
Anti-plex crowd seems to have retreated to calling selling Plex unfair. Is paying someone else to grind for you fair? Maybe not, but did you forget what game you are playing? Not fair is what makes this game awesome. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
166
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:46:00 -
[204] - Quote
If anything, it equalizes players. Selling PLEX for ISK does give you an advantage, yes, but so does PVE or trading or other methods of direct ISK generation. Someone with a lot of free cash could generate a lot of money, yes, but so could someone with a lot of free time. The current system ensures that people with limited amounts of free time to play can still do things that require money. For people who prefer to do things which earn them lots of ISK (e.g. people who spend a lot of time running missions or incursions or WH sites), it provides something worthwhile to spend money on.
Additionally, it allows characters to have ingame ISK value. Without PLEX, only people with a lot of free money in real life would be able to benefit from alts. With PLEX, you only need a healthy amount of free ingame money or a healthy amount of out of game money.
Finally, PLEX allows people who do not otherwise want to spend RL money on EVE to justify it. I myself am a poor college studentGäó and while I would be able to afford an account (and definitely would if PLEX didn't exist), my life is made easier by having one less monthly expense. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
268
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:47:00 -
[205] - Quote
Steel Wraith wrote:Another reason why RMT is not allowed yet Plex is, in addition to RMT encouraging botters, for those who care:
With RMT, because you can convert from $$ to isk back to $$, mmo gold (isk) is sometimes used as currency for various nefarious activities like renting botnets, paying for pay-per-install malware distribution, buying hacked email accounts etc. Using isk this way would be bad for CCP.
--
Anti-plex crowd seems to have retreated to calling selling Plex unfair. Is paying someone else to grind for you fair? Maybe not, but did you forget what game you are playing? Not fair is what makes this game awesome.
I'm pretty sure that real $$ is used more often than isk for "nefarious activities".
Ethically, by purchasing from RMT, you're providing a person from a third world country a comfortable standard of living. That's far more ethical than providing a person from a first world country with an even more comfortable standard of living.
But either way, it's more ethical to donate money to charity, so from an ethical point of view, any player that would buy PLEX should instead not buy PLEX and donate to starving children.
Not from you specifically, but from many posters, I'm seeing a lot of double-think, where "RMT is bad, PLEX is good!" even though they are essentially the exact same thing. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
195
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 00:56:00 -
[206] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Not from you specifically, but from many posters, I'm seeing a lot of double-think, where "RMT is bad, PLEX is good!" even though they are essentially the exact same thing.
They're not the same thing.
PLEX are sold by CCP, so CCP profit from their game and service they provide for that game.
RMTers, makes a profit from something that does not even belong to them and have no right to do so. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 02:03:00 -
[207] - Quote
Aranakas wrote: So if I were some eccentric billionaire and I spent a million dollars on PLEX, that would be 25 trillion isk. I could buy an entire alliance with that much isk. I could probably buy all of them. Now if that's not winning, I don't know what is.
Except that this would not happen, because CCP controls the PLEX market. The only legal way to buy PLEX for RL currency is through CCP, and the only way that PLEX is created is by CCP. So, if CCP saw a sharp spike in PLEX purchasing, be it from one person or many, they would freeze the sale of PLEX to prevent such a crash in the market. And again, this is where PLEX is different than RMT through a third party.
Given the size of the PLEX market (which may be smaller than you imagine), it would not have to be a huge spike in PLEX sales to sound the alarm at CCP. Buying a max of 28 per transaction, there's no way you could ever get near the hypothetical 50,000 PLEX (one million US dollars worth - sans discounting) before CCP simply shut off the valve. |
Ai Shun
607
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 05:32:00 -
[208] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Yes: PLEX is pay to win
What condition means you "win" at EVE? Is a ludicrous sum of ISK "winning" for you? It is not for me. Having fun means I'm "winning" to me.
So what means "win" in EVE? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1485
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 06:45:00 -
[209] - Quote
Excuse me, but did he really just try to use an example of someone buying a million $ worth of ISK as proof that his pet theory is correct,... with a straight face?
I'd say that pretty much puts a fork in this ridiculous exercise in mental ************.
Your billionaire gamer would have won exactly... nothing. Well, except a lot of assets to lose, much to the delight of the rest of the EVE community.
Is he going to fly all those ships himself? How long do you think it will take before he loses it all, or someone scams him out of it and shuts down his "alliance"? How loudly will EVE players laugh when he proudly proclaims that he "won" EVE? How quickly will the news get leaked to the press, and just how foolish will they make him look in the eyes of the general gaming community? How many more subscriptions do you think CCP would get in the process? How many hours do you think it will take CCP to react and balance the market again, in the unlikely event that the market can't self correct? Do you feel silly yet? When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
460
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 07:12:00 -
[210] - Quote
Aranakas wrote: and the banker suddenly declaring in the middle of the game that he'll accept $20 bills for $1000 in game money.
Eh? You completely fail to understand the EVE economy. No wonder you are frustrated.
Not one single ISK is created by CCP when you buy a PLEX, therefore your analogy doesn't fit. CCP is selling game time. The only thing that has happened is that CCP has allowed the EVE market to place an ISK value on that game time - something the market was doing anyway through RMT. At least this way it's CCP that benefits and not some dubious sweat shop in Asia.
When you buy a PLEX for cash, you are buying game time. When you sell a PLEX to another player for ISK, you are taking ISK that is already in the game in that player's wallet, and moving it to your wallet.
The only thing PLEX does is possibly increase players' willingness to spend ISK, since they know that ISK can easily be replaced by a credit card swipe. But wait - are you one of those people who believe that the number in your wallet actually means something? ISK has always been incredibly easy to come by in this game - if you don't believe me, go do the tutorials again. The way to be successful at EVE has nothing to do with ISK, and everything to do with skills (both in game skills and your ability to endure the learning curve) and more importantly, your social interaction. EVE is a social game and I don't care how you fit your ship or even where (null, hi sec, low sec), if you are jumped by 30 enemy you will die. Therefore that person wins for having 29 "friends" more than you. |
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Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 07:24:00 -
[211] - Quote
I'm selling PLEX to play the game the way I want to, which is not grinding ISK...
And my way to play EVE couldn't be farther away from what the average player would call "winning"...
Also I'm making a lot of players happy who don't have to pay real money to play...
A service to the EVE community, I'd say... |
Astrud Jarvinen
Estel Arador Corp Services
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 08:29:00 -
[212] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go!
So, you're using ISK as your "score", I take it. |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
171
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 15:46:00 -
[213] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote:
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in. If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut. The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year. But its not, that isk wasnt generated out fo nowhere, it was worked for by the people who bought it. no different then if you didnt do anything for a month, and then sold a battleship you no longer want to a player who HAS been grinding isk all month.
its a simple commodity to facilitate the transfer of isk, in which BOTH parties gain what they woulod otherwise be denied, seller-party gains isk they wouldnt otherwise ahev the time to get, buyer-party gains another month of gametime they otherwise couldnt afford. |
Suddenly Boom
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 15:56:00 -
[214] - Quote
Botters being banned? Guess they missed the 20-30 mackinkaw npc corp bots who mine in the Gekutami ice field (they warp out if you lock them and then warp straight back, they'll do this all day). |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
126
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 16:13:00 -
[215] - Quote
If PLEX are such an anathema to EVE, it seems strange that other games are following the lead and adopting similar strategies to combat RMT. I think those arguing against GTC/PLEX are in the minority. Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 16:45:00 -
[216] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:Aranakas wrote:Not from you specifically, but from many posters, I'm seeing a lot of double-think, where "RMT is bad, PLEX is good!" even though they are essentially the exact same thing. They're not the same thing. PLEX are sold by CCP, so CCP profit from their game and service they provide for that game. RMTers, make a profit from something that does not even belong to them and have no right to do so.
In a game that caters to scammers, thieves and griefers, your expecting people to be honest???
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 16:54:00 -
[217] - Quote
But the botters and RMTers aren't all banned. -á |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 18:16:00 -
[218] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Ban PLEX. All pay-to-win must go! It's pretty much impossible to stop RMT. If you remove plex all it'll do is increase botters and RMT companies. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 18:40:00 -
[219] - Quote
PLEX cannot be P2W for the simple reason of being market controlled, AND a item ingame. (IE destructable)
Buying your PLEX guarentees you nothing. First you have to sell it ingame, which is not guarenteed, and the amount you get is anywhere between 0.00 isk and infinite isk.
P2W guarentees you an advantage over a non paying player.
o7 |
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