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Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
5
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:n++NPC ships will no longer drop manufacturable T1 loot. NPCs will continue to drop modules, however T1 items which have a blueprint will no longer drop, making player manufacturing the primary source for these items.
Official Inferno Page
I think I like the idea behind this but I'm kind of confused since I've never done much industry. What kind of modules are going to drop that aren't T1? In other words, what T1 modules are not manufacturable?
Also, does this mean less loot or will the NPCs drop more of something else? |
Zircon Dasher
125
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
meta 0 = no drop
Meta1+ = still dropped (named modules) |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
90
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
It means Meta 1-4 items (named.)
Edit: got sniped..... I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
97
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Quote:n++NPC ships will no longer drop manufacturable T1 loot. NPCs will continue to drop modules, however T1 items which have a blueprint will no longer drop, making player manufacturing the primary source for these items.
Official Inferno PageI think I like the idea behind this but I'm kind of confused since I've never done much industry. What kind of modules are going to drop that aren't T1? In other words, what T1 modules are not manufacturable? Also, does this mean less loot or will the NPCs drop more of something else? Meta 1-4 modules are not able to be manufactured. Those will continue to drop. Meta 0 will not. |
Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
5
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Wow, thanks for the quick replies!
...and everyone says the eve community is made up of nothing but jerks and sociopaths. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
409
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Minerals gonna skyrock! Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
134
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Wow, thanks for the quick replies!
...and everyone says the eve community is made up of nothing but jerks and sociopaths.
INB4 jerks & soicpaths... & minerals today & tommorrow are going to go thru the roof & peak in 2-3 months I imagine An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's-á crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'-á |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1447
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Wow, thanks for the quick replies!
...and everyone says the eve community is made up of nothing but jerks and sociopaths.
Well, there are a few wierdo's, but most of us are yes. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
641
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:Wow, thanks for the quick replies!
...and everyone says the eve community is made up of nothing but jerks and sociopaths. INB4 jerks & soicpaths... & minerals today & tommorrow are going to go thru the roof & peak in 2-3 months I imagine Considering they have already been going up (due to folks buying up Zyn and Mega), they might already be past their post Inferno levels. We will just have to wait and see. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
184
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
OR translation, if you can purchase a BPO and make it yourself then it won't drop.
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Jonah Gravenstein
108
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Time to stop selling and reprocessing my mission loot then, the T1 stuff stacks up quite quickly War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
83
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
This is a good move for the newer players, starting industrialists can now manufacture and sell those meta 0 items and not have to compete with the stuff that mission runners don't melt, which I've been waiting to see since I started. I'd rather see new players benefitting from selling those items than mission runners melting or selling them. Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Grumpy Owly
586
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Could be that the meta 0 items are removed from the loot table, but it may not mean that as a result something else wont drop in it's place as loot.
So it may not be a reduction in loot and therefore effecting minerals, more the quality of what drops. As it does not state in detail how the loot mechnics will be effected by this change other than BPO items won't be in the loot tables. Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Momoyo
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
22
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Could be that the meta 0 items are removed from the loot table, but it may not mean that as a result something else wont drop in it's place as loot.
So it may not be a reduction in loot and therefore effecting minerals, more the quality of what drops. As it does not state in detail how the loot mechnics will be effected by this change other than BPO items won't be in the loot tables.
It will still affect minerals cause meta 0 (manufacturer items) reprocess into more and higher quality minerals than meta 1-4 which dont reprocess as well |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
154
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Kurai Okala wrote:Wow, thanks for the quick replies!
...and everyone says the eve community is made up of nothing but jerks and sociopaths. INB4 jerks & soicpaths... & minerals today & tommorrow are going to go thru the roof & peak in 2-3 months I imagine
You were too late when you posted. |
Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sigh...there are going to be an awful lot of upset Marauder pilots, since many T1 modules were another source of income from missioning.
All those people who have recently trained or bought a Marauder may be looking for their ISK back if mission loot value profitability crashes. |
Grumpy Owly
586
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Momoyo wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Could be that the meta 0 items are removed from the loot table, but it may not mean that as a result something else wont drop in it's place as loot.
So it may not be a reduction in loot and therefore effecting minerals, more the quality of what drops. As it does not state in detail how the loot mechnics will be effected by this change other than BPO items won't be in the loot tables. It will still affect minerals cause meta 0 (manufacturer items) reprocess into more and higher quality minerals than meta 1-4 which dont reprocess as well
Some of the meta 1+ items seem on a par to the meta 0 values.
However its not really the low end mineral content that concerns me its the high end minerals which will have equaivalent values on each of the meta tiers. So its more a case of any removal of those sources by actual meta drops of equivalence to meta 0 than minerals that can be replaced by mining capabilites. In this sense the low end reduction will actually help mining. But if mods are simply removed on a volume basis then the high end mineral sources in certain regions will be reduced as a result, though the patch notes don't explicitly say this.
Or maybe High sec wants to see all high mineral sources be removed from their areas favouring others. These kind of potential monopolisation of resources worries me as it means more favourable regional manipulation can occur in essentially what should be a competative free market that is chosen by the players, not with more engineered bias in gaming mechanics.
But if people in High sec are happy with the idea that null could potentially manipulate the price of ships and goods to a worse position for them with more capability as a result of changes like those potentially described, I wont personally mind as I'll simply profit further from limited mineral stocks causing price hikes? Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
202
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
They said they were going to do this a long time ago, back when they ramped up the crap metal in level 4's and Battleship loots so you aren't the only one who is confused. |
Ghoest
319
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
I havent run any mission lately but i was under the impression this had occurred a year or 2 ago. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
504
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Posted - 2012.04.05 04:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Could be that the meta 0 items are removed from the loot table, but it may not mean that as a result something else wont drop in it's place as loot.
Tags perhaps? So people can buy security status, as was described in Crimewatch. |
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Grumpy Owly
586
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Posted - 2012.04.05 05:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Could be that the meta 0 items are removed from the loot table, but it may not mean that as a result something else wont drop in it's place as loot.
Tags perhaps? So people can buy security status, as was described in Crimewatch.
No, read above about mineral concerns, e.g. meta 0 replaced with meta 1+. Can't effectively remove the mineral content especially high end sources without it effecting regional supply characteristics.
If anything the intriduction of more meta 1+ could help to curb their prices, whilst retain the balance for some mineral sources. Simply removing a vast majority of meta 0 mineral content could cause a bigger impact to some industrial capabilities. It would potentially be a shock to the system. Low end mineral losses could be made up by mining, but the high ends where sources are not avialable from mining in certain regeions would have that distribution simply lost. So if other regions then have moer control over that supply they can enact more market control of those goods and services, which includes most Ships and large spectrum of goods to some extent.
Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
504
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Posted - 2012.04.05 05:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote: If anything the intriduction of more meta 1+ could help to curb their prices, whilst retain the balance for some mineral sources. Simply removing a vast majority of meta 0 mineral content could cause a bigger impact to some industrial capabilities. It would potentially be a shock to the system. Low end mineral losses could be made up by mining, but the high ends where sources are not avialable from mining in certain regeions would have that distribution simply lost. So if other regions then have moer control over that supply they can enact more market control of those goods and services, which includes most Ships and large spectrum of goods to some extent.
What is "balance"? Risk reward, or constantly decreasing prices in an environment of 1300% more money?
I do not see the reduction of minerals from loot as a problem, instead a solution to fixing the imbalance created by over supply, and no I am not in some huge alliance that can mine mercoxit all day. The distribution isn't regional, it is based on security level of the system. I suppose if you want to define regions as high low and null, we can do that. Let's just be sure what it is we are talking about.
If you want nocx and zyd, even some mega if you want to probe, go grab a covetor, two lasers a cloak, some drones and find a quiet 0.4 system one jump in from high sec. Mine the crap out of it, with nocx at 800 a unit, you can loose a ship now and then and still profit. If you keep your eye on local, and not the TV, set up a few safe spots and use the map, no one will ever catch you.
I would argue that it is the over supply of minerals that has created the imbalance. Eve is not supposed to be a cake walk, I should not have 200 ships sitting in a can that I rarely open. Perhaps I will reprocess them and build a covetor or two. |
Grumpy Owly
586
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Posted - 2012.04.05 05:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote: If anything the intriduction of more meta 1+ could help to curb their prices, whilst retain the balance for some mineral sources. Simply removing a vast majority of meta 0 mineral content could cause a bigger impact to some industrial capabilities. It would potentially be a shock to the system. Low end mineral losses could be made up by mining, but the high ends where sources are not avialable from mining in certain regeions would have that distribution simply lost. So if other regions then have moer control over that supply they can enact more market control of those goods and services, which includes most Ships and large spectrum of goods to some extent.
What is "balance"? Risk reward, or constantly decreasing prices in an environment of 1300% more money? I do not see the reduction of minerals from loot as a problem, instead a solution to fixing the imbalance created by over supply, and no I am not in some huge alliance that can mine mercoxit all day. The distribution isn't regional, it is based on security level of the system. I suppose if you want to define regions as high low and null, we can do that. Let's just be sure what it is we are talking about. If you want nocx and zyd, even some mega if you want to probe, go grab a covetor, two lasers a cloak, some drones and find a quiet 0.4 system one jump in from high sec. Mine the crap out of it, with nocx at 800 a unit, you can loose a ship now and then and still profit. If you keep your eye on local, and not the TV, set up a few safe spots and use the map, no one will ever catch you. I would argue that it is the over supply of minerals that has created the imbalance. Eve is not supposed to be a cake walk, I should not have 200 ships sitting in a can that I rarely open. Perhaps I will reprocess them and build a covetor or two.
Yes the risk/rewards is inherent in the mineral composition already. That is why lower securities have better mineral compositions, the risk/reward element is already inherent in the system. As such regional bias is apparent, null has more ABC than low etc etc. So there are regional distinctions. E.g. where in high sec can you mine morphite? If there weren;t regional distinctions it would have its own source.
I'm sorry but all I see is more being taken away with regional bias and it enforcing more exclusivity based on regional boundaries.
And what over supply of minerals? Why do you think prices have recently sky rocketed both in minerals and goods? Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
507
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Posted - 2012.04.05 06:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote: Yes the risk/rewards is inherent in the mineral composition already. That is why lower securities have better mineral compositions, the risk/reward element is already inherent in the system. As such regional bias is apparent, null has more ABC than low etc etc. So there are regional distinctions. E.g. where in high sec can you mine morphite? If there weren;t regional distinctions it would have its own source.
You can't mine morphite any place in high sec. That's the point. Be willing to take the risk, train the skills and put in the effort to go get it. It grants considerable advantage to those who will go get it versus those who will not. Make the investment in gaining a comparative advantage and profit from it.
Grumpy Owly wrote: I'm sorry but all I see is more being taken away with regional bias and it enforcing more exclusivity based on regional boundaries.
We'll simply have to disagree on this. I consider these areas of exclusivity, as you call it, based on security level, as a good thing.
Grumpy Owly wrote: And what over supply of minerals? Why do you think prices have recently sky rocketed both in minerals and goods?
Because they are going to reduce all these extra sources of minerals that come from activities other than mining. Though it has not happened yet, speculation rules the markets right now.
I do not see these price increases as a bad thing. Perhaps, when prices are high enough, people will go out and mine again instead of shoot rats. When that happens, the prices will come down and the speculation will find a new sector of the economy with which to play.
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Grumpy Owly
587
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Posted - 2012.04.05 06:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote: Yes the risk/rewards is inherent in the mineral composition already. That is why lower securities have better mineral compositions, the risk/reward element is already inherent in the system. As such regional bias is apparent, null has more ABC than low etc etc. So there are regional distinctions. E.g. where in high sec can you mine morphite? If there weren;t regional distinctions it would have its own source.
You can't mine morphite any place in high sec. That's the point. Be willing to take the risk, train the skills and put in the effort to go get it. It grants considerable advantage to those who will go get it versus those who will not. Make the investment in gaining a comparative advantage and profit from it. Grumpy Owly wrote: I'm sorry but all I see is more being taken away with regional bias and it enforcing more exclusivity based on regional boundaries.
We'll simply have to disagree on this. I consider these areas of exclusivity, as you call it, based on security level, as a good thing. Grumpy Owly wrote: And what over supply of minerals? Why do you think prices have recently sky rocketed both in minerals and goods?
Because they are going to reduce all these extra sources of minerals that come from activities other than mining. Though it has not happened yet, speculation rules the markets right now. I do not see these price increases as a bad thing. Perhaps, when prices are high enough, people will go out and mine again instead of shoot rats. When that happens, the prices will come down and the speculation will find a new sector of the economy with which to play.
So we are at least agreeing then. the distributions are different and waylaid according to risk and reward.
Yes mining will improve. But where minerals don't exist as a mining source it doesn't improve industrial capabilites does it as there literally is no source.
What it does allow is more manipulation by regional influence to effect different economies. For instance lets take the situation where politically all morphite is sourced from null/wh. If they then decided to stop supplying HS it would ultimatley mean all T2 production in HS would stop. Extreme situation perhaps, but possible none the less.
Likeiwse they would then ultimatley control T2 production and potentially pricing in markets. Again extreme examples but plausable as an intent.
When you consider the incentive for null to push high sec pilots into null for personal gain why would they not begin to manipulate the markets to encourage such.
Why like their farms and fields intiatives would they not see to influence CCP to make thse decsions in favour of thes positions.
Whilst I sympathise with null for wanting to make things mroe attractive, they are doing this with drone poo removal, the idea to incentivise mining in null. This was/is the main reason behind it. But I have a prediction it will literally do bugger all for mining, as people wont get off their arses to do it, either due to lack of interest or due to risk aversion for the rewards that are already staring at them in the face in the asteroid belts. Meanwhile this shifting of economic bias effects all other economies as a result. So i predict it will be more likley an economic **** up by certain CSM6 candiadates as a result.
So when this model may end up with a further bias in the distribution of high end sources (like megacyte which is even needed for most of T1 ship production) which effect certain regions more than others why shouldn't i be concerned? It has the potential to be an economic disaster for your regular pilot who wants to buy his gear and get on with things.
Ultimatley I don't mind for myself personally, as price hikes due to mineral supply shortages I can capatalise on, but if things were to ever dry out so as to conflict with actual capabilities for production due to exclusive rights or access to sources then it doesnt really matter about all the other manufacturing materials related to production and how much there is, any loss in the chain will mean an inability to produce.
As such I'm usnure wether the argument of incentivise null should be at the expense of shut down high, and whilst might be an extreme view is still a valid concern as th slow chipping away at capabilities effects more people.
One question I will ask CCP other than wether than can clarify loot drop mechnics, is if drone poo doesn't incentivise mining in null as was suggested it will do so, will they continue this process of economic pressure until they find the straw that breaks the camels back? Assuming they get to that point before unrest and then the loss of customers/pilots? Bounty Hunting for CSM7
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
31
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Posted - 2012.04.05 08:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
Oh my, CCP is sure shaking things up.
Not sure if I-¦m happy with it as the minerals from loot drops where greatly nerfed anyway. And what little we earn now is at least somewhat offsetting the mindnumbing boredom of ratting.
So yeah, looks like is gona be back to the times of precious, precious Morphite.
Meh, looks like Goons will really pump the crap out of that Hulk BPO. |
Samillian
Moonshine Industries The Last Chancers.
110
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Posted - 2012.04.05 08:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Wow, thanks for the quick replies!
...and everyone says the eve community is made up of nothing but jerks and sociopaths.
It is but that doesn't mean we can't be helpful when weak and erratic impulse strikes us. |
gfldex
448
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Posted - 2012.04.05 09:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Neither is really used in PvE or PvP but the Beam just on reproc goes for 400K. The Cruise Launcher, 80K
Cruise launcher used to be fitable to frigs. They changed that fairly quickly but never updated the mineral requirements.
250mm Rail I I 8220 P 2683 M 3239 I 2 N 16
250mm Carbide Rail I T 4111 P 1341 M 1619 I 1 N 8
As you can see that's pretty much twice the mins. It's basicly the same change we had with nerfing BS loot in mission rats a while back, applied to all rats including belt NPCs in 0.0 . The effect will be the same. T1 loot will still be coupled to mineral prices 1:1 because a player needs very little capital and SP to make them. Any player that left his trial is right in that market (given he finds the BPO trade channel).
It's a massive nerf to 0.0 tho. Belt mining used to give you quite some nice extra bugs when you killed all the rats that spawn. And any activation of any mining laser is triggering a roll to move a spawn. You will still get the bounty but with less loot. So belt NPCs get nerfed and as such mining in 0.0 .
Named large guns are worth *beep* all. That did not be the case before the loot nerf. The same will happen now with any loot from missions, given the T1 stuff just get's removed from the loot table and drop chances for the rest stay the same.
I can't really see what this is good for. Belt ratting is right now better then Incursions if you know what you are doing (most players don't). That will change. Miners may or may not get anything out of it. That depends if there are changes to covert cynos. If there are no changes the whining will be ENDLESS.
Dear Mr CCP Soundwave, I hope you are going to enjoy your tasty big can of worms. You will learn the function (there is one) of gun mining soon enough. :)
CCP Sreegs-á - biggest griefer in EVE! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
509
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Posted - 2012.04.05 09:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote: Monopoly and Manipulation
This will not happen unless all of null sec comes under one alliance, and even then, someone will cheat the cartel. Morphite is spread around null sec, it's distribution is not like some of the moon goo. Let's suppose someone did try to make a cartel for morphite, the price will go up due to the shortage, this will increase the incentive for someone to cheat, and cheat first. Competition will ensure the materials get to market.
Also, if you're worried about price manipulation, trust me, it's not coming from the big alliances, it comes from well, people like me in one and two man corps loosely organized with other manipulative greedy capitalist pigs. |
gfldex
448
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Posted - 2012.04.05 09:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Because they are going to reduce all these extra sources of minerals that come from activities other than mining. Though it has not happened yet, speculation rules the markets right now.
I don't think so. The price hike we see right now could very well come from all those banned botters. They may have some mins left when the 14 day ban drops but have to fix the negative wallet. If you watch the sell orders of mins in jita right now, you will see that folk actually buy mins and those mins leave the market (much to my profit :).
It may very well be that the loot drop never was a problem in the first place. What legit miner can compete with a 22 hulk bot operation? It takes about 4 month to become effective as a miner. So at best we will see mineral prices start dropping in 4 month.
Ohh, CCP what have you done! Two big cans of worms at the same time? The whining will be ENDLESS.
And in 2012 the whining became ENDLESS. |
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