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Serbitas
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Posted - 2008.11.08 13:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Serbitas on 08/11/2008 13:46:57 <rant on> What the hell is this raven hype all about ? I am prety new to this game ( 4 weeks) and am flying some level 4 missions with my maelstorm now to make money. Everyone is telling me that the raven is THE ship to go for missions. I have played around with setups in eft (some recommended from here/battleclinic and some custom), skills set to low skill setup and all skills set to level 5. No matter how much i tried i couldnt get even 2/3 of the dps/tankage with the raven compared to my maelstorm (tried faction loot. standard t1 named and t2). Could it be that the raven is so popular due to the fact that missels are so idiot safe and you cant do much wrong with them ? I maen of course are Projectile weapons harder to handle then missles (due to the damage types, range and vector you are facing your enemy), but they are far superior, except for frigates maybe (but wtf. thats why i got drones for, and i can oneshop any frigate as long as its flying towards me and is far enough away). So could someone plesae enlighten me ? <rant off>
P.S. If i wanted to play idiot safe games i would be playing WoW or EQ but not eve...
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Mawusi
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Posted - 2008.11.08 13:58:00 -
[2]
Probably for the reasons you just stated. I do level 4 missions to make ISK so do I really wanna be messing round trying to find the correct ammo type, etc ? No, I just wanna warp in blow everything up and get the hell outta there to do another mission and make even more ISK.
Another reason is probably 'cos the majority of players are Caldari (so Im aware), so naturally they will use a BS specifc to their own race....at least until they are experienced enough to start learning other races BS skill, but its better to learn missile skills and shield skills to decent levels rather than cross training straight away.
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Serbitas Edited by: Serbitas on 08/11/2008 13:46:57 So could someone plesae enlighten me ?
not really sure what your point is, or what you want to be enlightened about, but yes, the Raven is an awesome mission running ship. so is the Maelstrom. so is the Dominix. so is the Drake.
the Raven is good because, yes, missiles are easy and you can build a great tank on it.
question is...why are you so bent out of shape about it? just because the Raven (and the Domi) are perennial favourites with mission runners doesn't mean YOU have to use one.
you're right, this isn't WoW or EQ, it's EVE - play it how YOU want, not how the popular vote swings.
++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.11.08 14:21:00 -
[4]
Sure, the Raven isn't the best mission running ship - but it is one of the easiest and most efficient for low skillpoint characters. That's why people use it. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
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Sal 'acho
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Posted - 2008.11.08 15:36:00 -
[5]
It's the best because it uses missiles / torps. EFT doesn't take into account the time it takes to get into range, the fact that for some rats you'll never get hit because you kite away out of range of them and that 10/15% of your projectiles will either miss completely or hit for little damage.
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MrMephistopheles
Navy of Xoc
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Posted - 2008.11.08 15:49:00 -
[6]
I will be damned if a raven finishes missions faster than my paladin (pew pew). Lots of gunnery skills and a good gunboat will plow through missions.
Member of the REDNECK LUFTWAFFE |
rofflesausage
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Posted - 2008.11.08 16:00:00 -
[7]
Even a low skilled player can hit stuff from 100KM in a Raven. At that range, you don't need to worry about tank that much as NPC's can do very little damage to you.
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Serbitas
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Posted - 2008.11.08 16:19:00 -
[8]
Torps/Missels are the worst dps dealer in missions from what i have foudn out. Not only their low base dps but also the anti missle missles all rats have are the reason. If you pay a little attention to your velocity and flying vector guns barely ever miss. Excellent hits are also far more likely with guns.
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Bladen Kerst
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.08 17:09:00 -
[9]
the eft is strong in this one...
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2008.11.08 19:41:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Mr Friendly on 08/11/2008 19:42:04 "Hey!!! I've only been playing for 4 weeks, but I think I can complain about the game intelligently."
I'll welcome you to Eve by telling you to STFU. You're a noob and you know nothing. Lurk more.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.08 19:55:00 -
[11]
You know: You re right, I mission as a caldari and would never touch a raven for it [because im lazy and loving passive shield tanks so NH it is for me \o/] anway: EFTing is not the bestw ay to find out the best ship....with turrets range+speed are far more importan than for missiles... missiles wont miss as much and for smaller ships you use drones anyway....But: You dotn want to use a Raven, then dont...its your game.
Raven WILL be nerfed with QR against smaller targets in missions
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Jessica Fyers
Gallente Azure Horizon
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Posted - 2008.11.08 19:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Orion GUardian You know: You re right, I mission as a caldari and would never touch a raven for it [because im lazy and loving passive shield tanks so NH it is for me \o/] anway: EFTing is not the bestw ay to find out the best ship....with turrets range+speed are far more importan than for missiles... missiles wont miss as much and for smaller ships you use drones anyway....But: You dotn want to use a Raven, then dont...its your game.
Raven WILL be nerfed with QR against smaller targets in missions
Which in turn means ofc that more ppl will start using gunships for missions.
To the OP: yes, guns miss; yes, missiles can be shot down... When you want to be efficient you go for the "best" and best known solution. When you wanna have fun tho, you go for whatever you fancy ---------------------------------------------- Some people say you should fight fire with fire... Nonsense of course; you should fight everything with fire! |
King Rothgar
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Posted - 2008.11.09 00:32:00 -
[13]
I must agree about the raven being vastly over-rated. It's missioning on brain dead mode but it is almost never the best ship for any particular missioning region. It's just ok at everything. It's also often claimed to require less training than a gunship, which is equally bogus. Getting t2 cruise or torps on a raven is faster than training up t2 artillery, but that's only if you skip t2 light and heavy missiles. It's also important to note that if you train both t2 cruise and torps, it's the length roughly as training t2 auto cannons and artillery.
BTW, turrets beat missiles for killing small stuff when talking about BS class weapons. A cruise missile will do about 40 damage on a frigate at 70km. A Tachyon will do 400 damage if it hits which it almost always does at that range due to low angular velocity. Let's see a raven kill 4 frigates with 1 volley. My apocalypse does it practically every mission. It only works at range, but as said, frigates are why you have drones.
On a related note, 4 weeks does not make this person a noob. Yeah, lots of people here have been playing for years but after a week or two, you aren't a noob anymore. No one seriously calls a month old player in CoD4 a noob do they? They don't have **** for SP, but that has nothing to do with player skill, that's a matter of CCP designing eve so that you must pay many months of subscription before you can be competitive in general PvP. Best thing the developers could possibly do for eve is grant every player all lvl5 skills and make it so all new characters start that way too. But that's another topic I suppose.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.11.09 05:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sal 'acho It's the best because it uses missiles / torps. EFT doesn't take into account the time it takes to get into range, the fact that for some rats you'll never get hit because you kite away out of range of them and that 10/15% of your projectiles will either miss completely or hit for little damage.
EFT doesn't take into account defender missiles, or travel time between gates. Things which hurt the Raven more than any other ships.
Anyway, the Raven (and variants) is the most versatile ship and is not disadvantaged against any particular NPC. Whether that makes it the "best" is up to the individual, but most educated players wouldn't say that... because for any particular goal you are better off using another ship.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.11.09 08:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: Serbitas Edited by: Serbitas on 08/11/2008 13:46:57 So could someone plesae enlighten me ?
not really sure what your point is, or what you want to be enlightened about, but yes, the Raven is an awesome mission running ship. so is the Maelstrom. so is the Dominix. so is the Drake.
Drake? For L4? Er....no. The Drake is not an awesome mission ship. It takes far too much Isk to get it even half way decent for running L4s. Sure it can tank most of them with a standard T2 fit but its DPS is lousy. The only thing good about it is the low cost and by the time you've bought your officer equipment and got it up to a half way decent DPS it is no longer a cheap ship.
Anyway the days of the Raven being awesome may be coming to a close now. The changes next week look like hitting cruise missiles hard. Time will tell but I think that on average the new order of play for Caldari is:
Golem>Nighthawk>CNR>Raven
Of course if you pick and choose your missions then CNR/Nighthawk might swap back the way they are now but the lowly T1 Raven is now firmly in last place. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Joe
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2008.11.09 08:44:00 -
[16]
I think drakes have far more unwarrented hype, atleast ravens have the dps required to quickly finish missions, not just the tank.
The amount of lvl 4 and 5 mission guides with the 'completed in: drake' are unbeleivable, who the hell wants to spend 3 hours completing a mission just becuase its 'safe'.
Umbra Legion Is recruiting!
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Mra Rednu
Amarr Legion of Destruction
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Posted - 2008.11.09 11:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Joe I think drakes have far more unwarrented hype, atleast ravens have the dps required to quickly finish missions, not just the tank.
The amount of lvl 4 and 5 mission guides with the 'completed in: drake' are unbeleivable, who the hell wants to spend 3 hours completing a mission just becuase its 'safe'.
Far from it am afraid Joe.
The drake isn't hyped enough, everyone say's Raven's own etc, but the fact is you can safely do lvl 4's in a drake way before you can a raven and by safe i mean without any warpouts cause as soon as they raven warps out the drake has then overtaken it in effectiveness in that mission.
Flown both a drake and raven, raven with same sp's not compare with the drake for earning and that a fact, sure it may kill faster but that is only half the story when warp outs get accounted for, also if running a second salvaging account you will find the missions get cleaned up straight away both cause of the slower kill rate but also cause the drake is afk freindly and raven is not so much until has got effective skill points, at which point i guess it's an great bs but a lot of bs's are when got proper skills just too many try to jump in bs's too early so raven is their only real option as it noob friendly ( as is drake ).
So a drake is a great low sp mission ship till get skilled to effectively use a raven if that is you're wish though i trained into amarr bs after drake and it a hell of a lot more fun i think you'll agree !
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Sebas Aule
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Posted - 2008.11.09 11:34:00 -
[18]
i think you guys all miss the point. Sure the megathron is great against serpentis/guristas. Sure the Maelstrom/Tempest are great (cough ya right) against angel. Ya the amarr boats are good against Blood and Sansha.
But now try this. Megathron vs Sansha/Blood. Abaddon vs angel. notice something? those great boats are suddenly not so great. Now throw a raven on that and look at that... the raven is the same against everything. Who would've thought!!!!
So yea, Ravens are common because they can vary their damage without dropping their DPS.
i personally fly a golem or a CNR depending on whichever tickles my fancy. I pretty much trained solely for that - ease of use in missions in order to acquire iskies to go do fun stuff. Yea the raven/cnr/golem may not beat your maelstrom/abaddon/paladin/kronos/vargur/thingamajig against their respective faction but i can sure as hell beat you when your agent throws you against a not so friendly to your dmg faction.
oh and having 1k dps in a golem aint too bad either. esp. when that 1k dps is independent of damage type
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Leandro Salazar
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2008.11.09 13:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Serbitas I have played around with setups in eft (some recommended from here/battleclinic and some custom), skills set to low skill setup and all skills set to level 5. No matter how much i tried i couldnt get even 2/3 of the dps/tankage with the raven compared to my maelstorm (tried faction loot. standard t1 named and t2).
Disregarding the fact that the Raven IS overrated, if the above is true, you're doing it wrong. If there is anything that is worse at running missions than a cruise Raven, it is an arty boat.
Ravens fame mostly stems from ease of use, not from efficiency. To make a Raven really efficient you have to use torps which throws the ease of use out of the window summat. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.09 13:18:00 -
[20]
You should stick to ship specific to your own race if you have good skills Maelstorm is very good, even though it doesn't get to choose damage type so well than you can do in raven, damage output and tanking ability should make pretty well up to it.
In general raven has pretty sad damage output with cruise missiles and it has small drone bay. It doesn't get tanking bonus either. Reason for using raven is that it's easy to just sit down and keep shooting missiles. Also you really need at least decent skills nowadays to use raven for L4's otherwise you're just going to freak out for jumping in and out from mission all the time. Doing L4's with low sp raven isn't really that fun.
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Cuchulian
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Posted - 2008.11.09 14:27:00 -
[21]
Bottom line is you should fly what works for you. All of my corp mates fly HAC's and cant get enough of them. I hate HAC's and feel perfectly at home in a hyperion. Dont let care bears sway the way you play. HAHA! i made a rhyme.
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Materia Hunter
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Posted - 2008.11.09 14:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: King Rothgar I must agree about the raven being vastly over-rated. It's missioning on brain dead mode but it is almost never the best ship for any particular missioning region. It's just ok at everything. It's also often claimed to require less training than a gunship, which is equally bogus. Getting t2 cruise or torps on a raven is faster than training up t2 artillery, but that's only if you skip t2 light and heavy missiles. It's also important to note that if you train both t2 cruise and torps, it's the length roughly as training t2 auto cannons and artillery.
BTW, turrets beat missiles for killing small stuff when talking about BS class weapons. A cruise missile will do about 40 damage on a frigate at 70km. A Tachyon will do 400 damage if it hits which it almost always does at that range due to low angular velocity. Let's see a raven kill 4 frigates with 1 volley. My apocalypse does it practically every mission. It only works at range, but as said, frigates are why you have drones
Amazing isn't it? It's not an amazing ship by any means and I agree with everything you have said. Yet they are nerfing missiles and altering drones to boot... *shrug*
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Tiirae
The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.11.09 15:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Ravens fame mostly stems from ease of use, not from efficiency. To make a Raven really efficient you have to use torps which throws the ease of use out of the window summat.
I would think that cruises are a lot more efficient than torps, because you can hit from any practical range that you will find in missions. it depends on the NPC type of course, torps are murder against angels, but for most others, the time you spend trying to get in range before you can open up is more than enough to ruin the efficiency of torps.
With missile distance rigs (2 thrusters, 1 fuel bay) you can get near 40km, which is enough, but then you've gimped your setup in another way.
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ForgeTrader
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Posted - 2008.11.09 15:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Raven WILL be nerfed with QR against smaller targets in missions
If you test on SiS, you'll find the Raven is also getting nerfed against NPC battleships too.
Because NPC battleships weren't rebalanced with the player ships. The NPC battleships speed tank cruise missiles.
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rofflesausage
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Posted - 2008.11.09 17:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: ForgeTrader The NPC battleships speed tank cruise missiles.
LOL - I must try the test server soon
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Saber Damere
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.11.09 22:10:00 -
[26]
I hate it. Everyone told me when I started with EVE, I should get a Raven as L4 Missionrunner cause it's 'the best'. Now I've wasted so much time in skilling for this ships which just sucks ass. Even with 5 Mio SP you can hardly solo L4 missions without warping out and neither my tank nor my DPS come even close to Serbitas and his Maelstrom and he has just 1,5 Mio SP! Honestly, whoever tells Newbies that Caldari make good Missionrunners is just lying and playing a n00b for a fool. I can really start from scratch now and try to get a new Missionrunner ship for myself.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.09 22:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Saber Damere I hate it. Everyone told me when I started with EVE, I should get a Raven as L4 Missionrunner cause it's 'the best'. Now I've wasted so much time in skilling for this ships which just sucks ass. Even with 5 Mio SP you can hardly solo L4 missions without warping out and neither my tank nor my DPS come even close to Serbitas and his Maelstrom and he has just 1,5 Mio SP! Honestly, whoever tells Newbies that Caldari make good Missionrunners is just lying and playing a n00b for a fool. I can really start from scratch now and try to get a new Missionrunner ship for myself.
Odd I've used raven and later CNR since I had 3,2 million SP and the only places where I'ved had to warp out has been if I overaggroed the room , or AE bonus.
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brinelan
Caldari Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.09 23:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: brinelan on 09/11/2008 23:43:53 Edited by: brinelan on 09/11/2008 23:43:37
Originally by: Saber Damere I hate it. Everyone told me when I started with EVE, I should get a Raven as L4 Missionrunner cause it's 'the best'. Now I've wasted so much time in skilling for this ships which just sucks ass. Even with 5 Mio SP you can hardly solo L4 missions without warping out and neither my tank nor my DPS come even close to Serbitas and his Maelstrom and he has just 1,5 Mio SP! Honestly, whoever tells Newbies that Caldari make good Missionrunners is just lying and playing a n00b for a fool. I can really start from scratch now and try to get a new Missionrunner ship for myself.
Sorry to tell you this, but you need more skill points in your tanking and offensive skills to fly a battleship well and not have to warp out that much. Sitting in it != flying it well. Get your tanking skills to at least 4, offensive skills to 4+ and caldari battleship skill to 4 and see if that helps. 5m sp is less then some people have in their tanking skills and way less then some specialized t2 weapon using people have in their chosen weapon system.
And why start over? Just train different skills. You would be surprised how many skills are prereqs to other skills. --------------------------
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield |
FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.11.10 02:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Saber Damere I hate it. Everyone told me when I started with EVE, I should get a Raven as L4 Missionrunner cause it's 'the best'. Now I've wasted so much time in skilling for this ships which just sucks ass. Even with 5 Mio SP you can hardly solo L4 missions without warping out and neither my tank nor my DPS come even close to Serbitas and his Maelstrom and he has just 1,5 Mio SP! Honestly, whoever tells Newbies that Caldari make good Missionrunners is just lying and playing a n00b for a fool. I can really start from scratch now and try to get a new Missionrunner ship for myself.
What setup are you using? And the Maelstrom will take a lot more SP to be at all effective. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
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Serbitas
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Posted - 2008.11.10 07:12:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Serbitas on 10/11/2008 07:12:01 Atm i have 1.7M sp and i am flying a maelstorm with rougly 420 dps (including drones). My tank is strong enough to take stage aggro in every mission without beeing in danger. So far i have soloed every mission without the slightest trouble, except enemies abound 5/5. Even Stage aggro in WC is not a problem.
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