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Kashre
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Posted - 2004.07.06 18:10:00 -
[31]
Reality is instantly out the window given the science fantasy physics of this game anyways. All they have to do is put some mumbo-jumbo in the description to make it make sense.
" the Stasis webifier warps space and time locally aroundn a vessel so that 90% of all thrust created is imediately applied at a reciprical angle" or some such.
Balance is all that matters... personally I like that frigates can web battleships, cause that adds totheir usefullness and helps to make mixed fleets viable. They are also very easy to use skill-wise, and it gives your noobs something worthwhile to do in a fleet battle. +++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Kashre
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Posted - 2004.07.06 18:10:00 -
[32]
Reality is instantly out the window given the science fantasy physics of this game anyways. All they have to do is put some mumbo-jumbo in the description to make it make sense.
" the Stasis webifier warps space and time locally aroundn a vessel so that 90% of all thrust created is imediately applied at a reciprical angle" or some such.
Balance is all that matters... personally I like that frigates can web battleships, cause that adds totheir usefullness and helps to make mixed fleets viable. They are also very easy to use skill-wise, and it gives your noobs something worthwhile to do in a fleet battle. +++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.07.06 18:56:00 -
[33]
I'm guessing the micro aux power core market is going to take a nose dive.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.07.06 18:56:00 -
[34]
I'm guessing the micro aux power core market is going to take a nose dive.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.07.06 20:02:00 -
[35]
Still needed for frigates to mount armour and 10MN AB's
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.07.06 20:02:00 -
[36]
Still needed for frigates to mount armour and 10MN AB's
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2004.07.06 22:17:00 -
[37]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 06/07/2004 22:18:30 I'm a frigate pilot 95% of the time... and I'd have to say that I dont really think this was in any way necessary. With micro aux power cores, and knowing what you want your ship to do, setups were fairly easy.
I think now some of the more specific setups are going to be surpassed by frigates that have a 'jack of all trades' quality to them. For example, fitting a warp scramble vigil used to mean you'd either have to forgo weapons, or put micro aux power cores in lowslots. Now theres no sacrifice involved in equipping turrets.
Most anti-frigate setups had to balance speed, webber/scrambler, weapons, and cap. With the new fitting for a lot of mods, theres really no sacrifice that needs to be made. I can fit a full rack of neutrons, MWD, webber, scrambler, and have 3 completely free lowslots to do whatever I want in a taranis - before I'd have had to drop down to ions or fit some micro aux power cores.
I guess I just dont understand why tradeoffs when equipping frigates were done away with. Battleships have to trade pure damage for tanking or for ECM, and its the interesting part of fitting out ships. I'm kind of disappointed that its more or less gone for frigates.
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2004.07.06 22:17:00 -
[38]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 06/07/2004 22:18:30 I'm a frigate pilot 95% of the time... and I'd have to say that I dont really think this was in any way necessary. With micro aux power cores, and knowing what you want your ship to do, setups were fairly easy.
I think now some of the more specific setups are going to be surpassed by frigates that have a 'jack of all trades' quality to them. For example, fitting a warp scramble vigil used to mean you'd either have to forgo weapons, or put micro aux power cores in lowslots. Now theres no sacrifice involved in equipping turrets.
Most anti-frigate setups had to balance speed, webber/scrambler, weapons, and cap. With the new fitting for a lot of mods, theres really no sacrifice that needs to be made. I can fit a full rack of neutrons, MWD, webber, scrambler, and have 3 completely free lowslots to do whatever I want in a taranis - before I'd have had to drop down to ions or fit some micro aux power cores.
I guess I just dont understand why tradeoffs when equipping frigates were done away with. Battleships have to trade pure damage for tanking or for ECM, and its the interesting part of fitting out ships. I'm kind of disappointed that its more or less gone for frigates.
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.07.07 07:51:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Still needed for frigates to mount armour and 10MN AB's
Armour is the new trend for Frig pilots... but 10mn ABs?! come on the minimal benefits of the 10mn AB are severely outweighed by the cons of not using a mwd.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.07.07 07:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Still needed for frigates to mount armour and 10MN AB's
Armour is the new trend for Frig pilots... but 10mn ABs?! come on the minimal benefits of the 10mn AB are severely outweighed by the cons of not using a mwd.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.07.07 09:14:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Juan Andalusian Armour is the new trend for Frig pilots... but 10mn ABs?! come on the minimal benefits of the 10mn AB are severely outweighed by the cons of not using a mwd.
I assume from that you've never tried a 10MN afterburner in a frigate.
It gives nearly the same speed bonus as a 1mn microwarp drive, with none of the penalties. Burns less cap too, if you have Fuel Conservation.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.07.07 09:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Juan Andalusian Armour is the new trend for Frig pilots... but 10mn ABs?! come on the minimal benefits of the 10mn AB are severely outweighed by the cons of not using a mwd.
I assume from that you've never tried a 10MN afterburner in a frigate.
It gives nearly the same speed bonus as a 1mn microwarp drive, with none of the penalties. Burns less cap too, if you have Fuel Conservation.
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Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2004.07.07 10:15:00 -
[43]
Another stupid idea CCP ......
There was a art to getting a decent Frigate setup before this patch but now it's just click and add .....
Mongo speaks !!
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Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2004.07.07 10:15:00 -
[44]
Another stupid idea CCP ......
There was a art to getting a decent Frigate setup before this patch but now it's just click and add .....
Mongo speaks !!
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.07.07 12:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: flummox
Originally by: BD Mojo
Originally by: Gaijin Lanis
Originally by: Venril Hopefully they will make battleship sized webbers, cruiser sized webbers ect.. A frig being able to slow a battleship to nil is just not right because a battleships engines are putting out alot more power then a frig does.
Semi-trucks use the same braking system as the smallest lightest car.
Your smallest, lightest car uses air-brakes? Wow. That's got to be hell running the air compressor on that little car.
Semi-trucks do NOT use the same braking system as the smallest, lightest car. Use another analogy.
actually, the concept IS the same. one uses compressed air to activate the breaking mechanism, the other uses liquid. the working mechanics of applying pressure between two surfaces to create friction to slow down the vehicle do not change. sizes and stuff do change, but not the application...
oh, and it would be easier to stop a BS with a stasis-web than a frig. mass is the factor here...
Actually heavy trucks tend to use an electrical system for braking, while cars use purely 100% mechanical. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.07.07 12:16:00 -
[46]
Originally by: flummox
Originally by: BD Mojo
Originally by: Gaijin Lanis
Originally by: Venril Hopefully they will make battleship sized webbers, cruiser sized webbers ect.. A frig being able to slow a battleship to nil is just not right because a battleships engines are putting out alot more power then a frig does.
Semi-trucks use the same braking system as the smallest lightest car.
Your smallest, lightest car uses air-brakes? Wow. That's got to be hell running the air compressor on that little car.
Semi-trucks do NOT use the same braking system as the smallest, lightest car. Use another analogy.
actually, the concept IS the same. one uses compressed air to activate the breaking mechanism, the other uses liquid. the working mechanics of applying pressure between two surfaces to create friction to slow down the vehicle do not change. sizes and stuff do change, but not the application...
oh, and it would be easier to stop a BS with a stasis-web than a frig. mass is the factor here...
Actually heavy trucks tend to use an electrical system for braking, while cars use purely 100% mechanical. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.07.07 12:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Darkwolf
Originally by: Juan Andalusian Armour is the new trend for Frig pilots... but 10mn ABs?! come on the minimal benefits of the 10mn AB are severely outweighed by the cons of not using a mwd.
I assume from that you've never tried a 10MN afterburner in a frigate.
It gives nearly the same speed bonus as a 1mn microwarp drive, with none of the penalties. Burns less cap too, if you have Fuel Conservation.
I don't know how you define nearly the same.
Having the edge over my opponent in a frig to frig fight because he is using an AB and i am using a MWD is not what i call "nearly the same".
Cap problems for frigates are solved with good skills and good module usage. The AB's grid demands also count against it.
All in all the AB just serves the psychological purpose of not having to watch your sig radius reach 300 or similar levels.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.07.07 12:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Darkwolf
Originally by: Juan Andalusian Armour is the new trend for Frig pilots... but 10mn ABs?! come on the minimal benefits of the 10mn AB are severely outweighed by the cons of not using a mwd.
I assume from that you've never tried a 10MN afterburner in a frigate.
It gives nearly the same speed bonus as a 1mn microwarp drive, with none of the penalties. Burns less cap too, if you have Fuel Conservation.
I don't know how you define nearly the same.
Having the edge over my opponent in a frig to frig fight because he is using an AB and i am using a MWD is not what i call "nearly the same".
Cap problems for frigates are solved with good skills and good module usage. The AB's grid demands also count against it.
All in all the AB just serves the psychological purpose of not having to watch your sig radius reach 300 or similar levels.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Pandora Panda
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Posted - 2004.07.07 15:55:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Juan Andalusian All in all the AB just serves the psychological purpose of not having to watch your sig radius reach 300 or similar levels.
Yeah, the psychological reason is the main thing.
Not that I care about the *MASSIVE* tracking bonus that small turrets get on a MWDing frig, and once you're webbed all that nice speed is gone.
Not to mention that larger ships can hit you a helluva lot easier if you have a MWD active and arent orbiting them, and theres really no reason why anyone would want more cap and shileds, is there? -------------------------------------------- CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003 |
Pandora Panda
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Posted - 2004.07.07 15:55:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Juan Andalusian All in all the AB just serves the psychological purpose of not having to watch your sig radius reach 300 or similar levels.
Yeah, the psychological reason is the main thing.
Not that I care about the *MASSIVE* tracking bonus that small turrets get on a MWDing frig, and once you're webbed all that nice speed is gone.
Not to mention that larger ships can hit you a helluva lot easier if you have a MWD active and arent orbiting them, and theres really no reason why anyone would want more cap and shileds, is there? -------------------------------------------- CONCORD: Kneecapping Pilots for Misdemeanors Since 2003 |
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.07.08 16:19:00 -
[51]
Quote: Yeah, the psychological reason is the main thing.
Not that I care about the *MASSIVE* tracking bonus that small turrets get on a MWDing frig, and once you're webbed all that nice speed is gone.
1) Once you are webbed means you have closed in, which also should mean you have webbed back.
2) Small turret users need to get close so keeping mwd on after webbing is pointless since your target is not going to run.
3)a) Turret Frig (MWD) vs Turret Frig (AB): Both need to get close to hit therefore keeping mwd after webs are in is a huge mistake. Turret frig with MWD will also better low slot usage.
3)b) Turret Frig (MWD) vs Missile Frig (AB): Turret frig needs to get closer than missile frig does. AB on missile frig means turret frig is way faster, means missile frig will get webbed. Sig penalty is of no importance at all since enemy has no turrets.
4) Frig (MWD/AB) vs Cruiser / BS with Small Turrets + Web: Start warping... you are going to get hit either way.
Quote: Not to mention that larger ships can hit you a helluva lot easier if you have a MWD active and arent orbiting them
1) The transversial velocities that a frigate with mwd on can achieve even at poor angles and at long distances means that it won't matter if your Sig radius is 70 or 300, large turrets won't be able to hit you anyway. How easy do you think it is to hit a BS that is moving at transversial velocity 1200m/s?
2) What are you doing sitting in the same grid with larger ships not orbitting them (or moving at the slightest angle from em) with mwd active??
3) The MWD penalty was not introduced in order to nerf the frigates but in order to maintain the balance of the new tracking balancing. The combination of speed and low sig radius was imbalanced so they evened it out to fit in the general scheme, they didn't make it in order to remove mwd from frigates.
Quote: and theres really no reason why anyone would want more cap and shileds, is there?
25% more shields on a Frig? nope can't think of a REAL reason to sacrifice the speed gain for a measly ammount of shield.
Frigates have lived with the 25% cap penalty for ages. Wasn't aware that frigs/inties started developing cap problems recently... what do you need it for? tanking?
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.07.08 16:19:00 -
[52]
Quote: Yeah, the psychological reason is the main thing.
Not that I care about the *MASSIVE* tracking bonus that small turrets get on a MWDing frig, and once you're webbed all that nice speed is gone.
1) Once you are webbed means you have closed in, which also should mean you have webbed back.
2) Small turret users need to get close so keeping mwd on after webbing is pointless since your target is not going to run.
3)a) Turret Frig (MWD) vs Turret Frig (AB): Both need to get close to hit therefore keeping mwd after webs are in is a huge mistake. Turret frig with MWD will also better low slot usage.
3)b) Turret Frig (MWD) vs Missile Frig (AB): Turret frig needs to get closer than missile frig does. AB on missile frig means turret frig is way faster, means missile frig will get webbed. Sig penalty is of no importance at all since enemy has no turrets.
4) Frig (MWD/AB) vs Cruiser / BS with Small Turrets + Web: Start warping... you are going to get hit either way.
Quote: Not to mention that larger ships can hit you a helluva lot easier if you have a MWD active and arent orbiting them
1) The transversial velocities that a frigate with mwd on can achieve even at poor angles and at long distances means that it won't matter if your Sig radius is 70 or 300, large turrets won't be able to hit you anyway. How easy do you think it is to hit a BS that is moving at transversial velocity 1200m/s?
2) What are you doing sitting in the same grid with larger ships not orbitting them (or moving at the slightest angle from em) with mwd active??
3) The MWD penalty was not introduced in order to nerf the frigates but in order to maintain the balance of the new tracking balancing. The combination of speed and low sig radius was imbalanced so they evened it out to fit in the general scheme, they didn't make it in order to remove mwd from frigates.
Quote: and theres really no reason why anyone would want more cap and shileds, is there?
25% more shields on a Frig? nope can't think of a REAL reason to sacrifice the speed gain for a measly ammount of shield.
Frigates have lived with the 25% cap penalty for ages. Wasn't aware that frigs/inties started developing cap problems recently... what do you need it for? tanking?
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:36:00 -
[53]
Edited by: flummox on 12/07/2004 20:08:07 Edited by: flummox on 12/07/2004 19:38:44 To Imhotep Khem:
what does that electrical system power? a liquid-based or air/pressure-based braking system. there are tons of different ways to make two friction plates rub against each other. but, there really isn't any other breaking system out there but the "friction" system. unless you count slamming into a solid object "breaking"... lol
to those who say ignore reality: sure, but sometimes, when you have nothing to base a comparison off of for sci-fi, reality rears it's ugly head...
also, the "momentum" or "inertia" for BS is greater. which is why it would be effected more in a gravity well. hence mass is a huge factor. mass would (help) determine ineria/momentum. it's kinda like a draingrill or a net under water: big stuff gets caught a lot(two words there, folks!) easier then small plankton and specs of dirt.
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:36:00 -
[54]
Edited by: flummox on 12/07/2004 20:08:07 Edited by: flummox on 12/07/2004 19:38:44 To Imhotep Khem:
what does that electrical system power? a liquid-based or air/pressure-based braking system. there are tons of different ways to make two friction plates rub against each other. but, there really isn't any other breaking system out there but the "friction" system. unless you count slamming into a solid object "breaking"... lol
to those who say ignore reality: sure, but sometimes, when you have nothing to base a comparison off of for sci-fi, reality rears it's ugly head...
also, the "momentum" or "inertia" for BS is greater. which is why it would be effected more in a gravity well. hence mass is a huge factor. mass would (help) determine ineria/momentum. it's kinda like a draingrill or a net under water: big stuff gets caught a lot(two words there, folks!) easier then small plankton and specs of dirt.
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.07.13 00:08:00 -
[55]
I personaly *LOVE* this new change. Frigates are so much more versitile and useful in combat now.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.07.13 00:08:00 -
[56]
I personaly *LOVE* this new change. Frigates are so much more versitile and useful in combat now.
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Ukiah
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Posted - 2004.07.13 13:37:00 -
[57]
You guys seem to believe that a webber somehow allows a frigate to physically reach out and manually 'drag' a BS to a stop. It does not. It 'inhibits' the engine's ability to thrust. It doesn't matter 'what' size the target ship is or what size the scrambling ship is. It's an 'electronic' attack. You're not throwing a grappling hook onto the BS and yanking with your frigate, for chrissake.
Nice posts, Juan. I always enjoy your perspective. I still run a MWD instead of a 10mn AB due to fitting reqs.
There are STILL tons of ways to kill a friggie. Heavy NOS or Web, then missile, SB's, drones (when is this getting fixed? I don't care about tracking or nerfing drones. Just make them stop shooting after I run outside 20k range).
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Ukiah
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Posted - 2004.07.13 13:37:00 -
[58]
You guys seem to believe that a webber somehow allows a frigate to physically reach out and manually 'drag' a BS to a stop. It does not. It 'inhibits' the engine's ability to thrust. It doesn't matter 'what' size the target ship is or what size the scrambling ship is. It's an 'electronic' attack. You're not throwing a grappling hook onto the BS and yanking with your frigate, for chrissake.
Nice posts, Juan. I always enjoy your perspective. I still run a MWD instead of a 10mn AB due to fitting reqs.
There are STILL tons of ways to kill a friggie. Heavy NOS or Web, then missile, SB's, drones (when is this getting fixed? I don't care about tracking or nerfing drones. Just make them stop shooting after I run outside 20k range).
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flummox
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Posted - 2004.07.13 14:00:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lansfear I personaly *LOVE* this new change. Frigates are so much more versitile and useful in combat now.
me too...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.07.13 14:00:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lansfear I personaly *LOVE* this new change. Frigates are so much more versitile and useful in combat now.
me too...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
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