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Jona Eshew
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:11:00 -
[31]
I have 3 mil in cruise missiles and other missile skills. CovOps at lvl 5. Your're wasting your time. The point that a cloaked Raven does what a SB does better is valid. The ONLY thing a SB might do better is waste less missiles popping frigates. I spent months training to "Prove them wrong" and all I got out of it was many loss mails.
True you might get lucky and get a frigate every 3 losses. Really though, all the experience has done for me is give me something to learn about while I trained for a Falcon. The SB role really does need a covops cloak. The ONE thing it needs is that. (I don't think cheaper bombs would do much, I fight in Empire wars.) Otherwise you're just a paper-tanked Raven. I've had numerous opponents see me on their overview, see me launch missiles, lol at me in local and warp off before my missiles ever got close.
In a gang with a tackler, its not so bad. But I could have flown a Raven or a drake then. So whats the point? Fly with other stealth bombers and cloaked ships?! Sure. But the same thing, I could have just flown a Raven. Perhaps stealthing into enemy territory? Send in a 'real' covops with a cyno and jump in with a real ship then.
The 'nay' sayers are just trying to keep you from wasting your time and becoming discouraged and leaving the game as I came close to doing.
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lollerwaffle
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:17:00 -
[32]
IMHO although stealthbombers can be outperformed by other ships, it's still a fun ship to fly and surprise people with :) Recently started flying my SB a bit more (just before patch) and it's been a blast, instapopping frigs and other stealthbombers in an engagement between 2 other parties. SB+inty combo is pretty efficient, cheaper and more mobility than a BS+inty combo
OP: secret 2 sucksass is bookmarks around common areas
Don't know how cruise missiles on an SB will be affected after patch, but i'll be testing it in the next few hours and let u know
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:13:00 -
[33]
i'm astounded how much you guys fail at stealth bombing
these are not ships you use against BSes, and you shouldn't even uncloak on anything that you can't kill.
*pro tip* a stealth bomber can uncloak and start sensor boosters before a person undocking even loads grid --
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Kusotarre
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:22:00 -
[34]
Why oh why do people insist on flying these absolutely awful ships.
There really are objective values in this game in terms of damage output, HP buffer, range, maneuverability, and so on.
The stealth bomber is a ship that doesn't perform any of these things well, and performs most of them very poorly.
Don't train for a stealthbomber. Don't be a stealthbomber pilot.
Every competent FC who looks at the makeup of his gang, unless it is a stealthbomber comedy op, sees people in stealthbombers and either wishes he could blow them up, or actually locks them and blows them up.
All these people who are telling you that training a stealthbomber is a good thing to do are doing one of two things:
1) Being completely awful at understanding anything PVP related, or
2) Leading you to believe that their alliance's bi-monthly SB comedy ops are something you should specifically train for and specialize in.
As much as I get some schadenfreud from seeing people do dumb things, I think it's safe to say I can still post the truth about stealthbombers here and still have plenty of suckers to laugh at.
TL;DR version: Stealthbombers are bad 98% of the time. Don't train for that 2%.
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:30:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kusotarre TL;DR version: Stealthbombers are bad 98% of the time. Don't train for that 2%.
you don't even have to tbh. if you train for cov ops, you get stealth bombers for free --
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:31:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Faife *pro tip* a stealth bomber can uncloak and start sensor boosters before a person undocking even loads grid
*pro tip* you're invulnerable for 30 seconds after undocking, so that bomber can't even begin to lock until any other random ship could. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Basilla Lambros Thanks, but I already have a corp.
sorry, but was just being (trying) funny
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Basilla Lambros
Gallente Mort's of Caille
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:24:00 -
[38]
Well, why else would somebody invite a person who is mainly interested in flying stealth bombers?
In all honesty, everybody who has said it is impossible, they are a waste of ISK, I will respond with two comments. One, all the more fun when I blow somebody up, knowing they posted negatively in this thread, and two thanks for encouraging me to fly the worst ship in the game!
To every other person who is a SB pilot, SB supporter, ect. Thank you very much.
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Jona Eshew
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Basilla Lambros
In all honesty, everybody who has said it is impossible, they are a waste of ISK, I will respond with two comments. One, all the more fun when I blow somebody up, knowing they posted negatively in this thread, and two thanks for encouraging me to fly the worst ship in the game!
I think your just not being honest with yourself, most people here were already being honest with you. But good luck have fun, and at lest you'll be closer to a Force Recon when your done.
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Basilla Lambros
Gallente Mort's of Caille
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:36:00 -
[40]
I think everything in life is what you make of it. I just happen to think that SBs are a awesome ship, and I am counting down the time until I can buy one.
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KInkamache
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:06:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Basilla Lambros I think everything in life is what you make of it. I just happen to think that SBs are a awesome ship, and I am counting down the time until I can buy one.
Dont worry ull have one soon they are great ships and fun to fly them.
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin *pro tip* you're invulnerable for 30 seconds after undocking, so that bomber can't even begin to lock until any other random ship could.
lrn2eve
you are cloaked over station. if a target comes that you can one shot kill out you uncloak then start spamming lock button. as soon as they click anything, you lock, shoot, pop, cloak
if you can't kill them in one shot, don't uncloak. --
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Killer Kelly
The Social Club
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:39:00 -
[43]
My experience is this. If you are good at Spy in Team Fortress 2, you are good at Stealth Bomber in EVE. The ambush tactics are basically the same. Prey on the alone.
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Killer Kelly
The Social Club
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:43:00 -
[44]
I haven't played with them since the patch. I heard they suck now.
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Signati
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Posted - 2008.11.12 23:46:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Signati on 12/11/2008 23:47:20 I really am starting to think that the people who are going crazy with the "bombers suck" arguments have either never flown one, or have never flown them well.
If you are one of the latter, and you have flown a bomber a few times only to get pwned, then you are more entitled to your opinion than those who have never got in one. However, just because you cant use a ship well, does not mean that others cannot.
I love having a bomber or two along when I FC, even though it is rare we do a pure bomber op. The added E-war (damps) and Alpha is good, and dispite not being able to warp cloaked, they (when piloted by anyone with half a brain) have a high survivability.
The only down side to a bomber is its lack of tank, but when the foe cants shoot you... how is that an issue?
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2008.11.13 05:51:00 -
[46]
Well ... this has been an interesting read.
I was thinking about doing some exploration and read the guides on that which got me looking into cloaks and Covert Ops ships.
Haven't used any yet but I saw that, as mentioned, I was going to be qualified for the Stealth Bombers so started thinking about them.
Now ... I've got some back ground in military history and naval war gaming so I sorta thought about SB's as submarines. Yes I realize that they aren't the same thing so I wouldn't want to draw to close a parallel but I did note some similarities in their possible uses.
Now here, a submarines real target - was not enemy warships - but their merchant ships, which in EVE would be Haulers, Miners and such.
If you were at war with someone and you wanted to deny them their ability to mine, attacking their miners would seem to be a good mission for such ships. Even if you didn't sink (that is ... destroy) them, if you just harassed them enough that they couldn't mine you would have accomplished your mission.
Now here, yes, there might be other ships where a brute force method would be more successful but then a lot of those ships are much more expensive which ... if you just can't afford them ... makes them irrelevant. Even if you have the ability to use a Battleship, if you can't afford to keep replacing them ... then you really can't afford to use them against your opponent. But, a smaller, cheaper ship - which you could easily afford to develop T2 BPC's for - might give you the ability to harass your opponent into leaving you alone. You aren't going to win the war with SB's but then you weren't going to win the war no matter what you did. However, you might be able to make yourself a big enough pain in the ass that they will go away.
I've seen a number of small corps get war dec'd by larger corps simply because they could do it. Just as the submarine has always been the preferred weapon of the weaker naval power - it struck me that stealth bombers might be useful by a weaker corporation in striking back at a larger one and hurting it enough by attacking it's mining operations to get it to back off. Of course ... if the larger corporation didn't have any mining operations ... that wouldn't work but then you might be able to do similar things to their mission runners salvaging. Historically, Germany for example, though it had surface forces during WWI & WWII didn't have enough of them to beat the British but by using their submarines as an anti-commerce force they were able to hurt them.
Now, the effect of the new update seems like it may well have really hurt Stealth Bombers.
As I understand it, one of their strengths was the ability to travel rapidly at sub warp speeds while cloaked and to use cruise missiles on a Frigate sized vessel. The patch notes would indicate that speeds have been curtailed and cruise missiles nerfted. So I'm wondering what impact this may have on this type of ship.
Anyway ... all of the above is just theory for me as my involvement at this point is only academic. If I get my skills up and get some Stealth Bombers the actual use of them may give me a better indication of just what they are able to do and not do. In any case, I see them teaming up with Covert Ops ships as being fairly important to their success. One tactic I'd imagine, would be for the Covert Ops Frigate to find the target, then warp out to a distance off grid from it. At that point, the SB's could warp to the Covert Ops ship, then cloak and proceed at sub warp speeds until they got in range to attack. As with using a submarine ... that would require a good bit of patience and discipline and thus not be everyone's cup of tea.
Obviously, being able to field a fleet of Battleships would be more effective but if you simply can't afford to lose a fleet of Battleships ... then you probably shouldn't be trying that. Whereas, you might well be able to afford to lose a fleet of Stealth Bombers.
*shrug*
Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.13 06:33:00 -
[47]
The key difference here is that a submarine has the ability to approach the target without being detected, while a stealth bomber warps in with a giant "I'M HERE, RUN AWAY!!!!!!" sign. Since you have no stealth, there's no reason to fly it over the countless ships that are much better in combat. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
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Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 10:40:00 -
[48]
Dear OP I have flown these SBs a bit (though I mainly kill them with anti-SB weapon "the sneeze") and I have known a few great dedicated pilots...Can not introduce you though as soon after they specialise for SBs they invariably quit EvE.
Your friend,
Crel the noob. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:49:00 -
[49]
Were out there. We are just hard to see! If you werent Gallen id hook ya up in the Steath bomber Channel.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2008.11.13 17:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The key difference here is that a submarine has the ability to approach the target without being detected, while a stealth bomber warps in with a giant "I'M HERE, RUN AWAY!!!!!!" sign. Since you have no stealth, there's no reason to fly it over the countless ships that are much better in combat.
Actually, I posted a method for doing just that. I.E. have your Covert Ops scout find your target, then move out from the target until it drops off grid. At that point the Stealth Bombers warp to their off grid Squad Mate in the Covert Ops ship, then cloak and proceed at sub warp speeds back onto the grid until they can target the ship their scout picked up.
This is actually somewhat analogous to how WWI & WWII submarines worked since they moved as such poor speeds underwater. They maneuvered into position ahead of their target on the surface, then submerged to begin their attack runs. All of which took a long time but that was just part of how they worked. Now - as I also mentioned - this worked rather terribly against actual warships but was relatively successful against merchant men which were much slower.
Now ... of the countless other better ships, is there another one that can do all of the following:
1) Travel at the same sub warp speed or faster while cloaked as a Stealth Bomber 2) Pack the same kind of Alpha strike as a Stealth Bomber 3) Cost as little as a Stealth Bomber 4) Has a BPC that is as cheap to develop as a Stealth Bomber
This by the way is not an argumentative statement on my part - I really do not know whether there is a ship that meets all of those requirements or not.
As I said - I'm sure there are better ships, the question is are their better ships that can do all that?
Each ship has a role to play - and this is the role I had in mind BEFORE I knew what a Stealth Bomber was. As I said, I've seen small Corporations War Dec'd by larger ones who just wanted to bully someone around. If the corporation is small and doesn't have a lot of money then a lot of the better options don't matter if they can't afford to routinely replace them.
Lastly, as I said, even if they don't destroy the enemy ships they are after, simply disrupting their activities would accomplish the goal of Sea (Space ...) Denial. They don't have to actually destroy anything to be effective, they just have to harass it to the point where it can't function - and then hide or run away so that the larger corporations larger ships can't hunt it down and kill it - then - come back and keep doing it.
If the larger corporations miners all run back to base as soon as the guy they've come to know as being an enemy stealth bomber pilot shows up on local - and they stay in base as long as he's out there - then he's accomplished his mission. If he can tie up larger more powerful units looking for him - so that they aren't off doing something productive - that accomplishes his mission as well.
All a small corporation is going to be able to do against a larger one or one with much better players, is to harass it into leaving them alone. So the definition of success here is entirely different than one focused on actually defeating their enemy. Obviously, actually defeating your enemy is preferable but if you lack the funds, skills and ships to even hope to do that a strategy of harassment is something you could do as opposed to just hiding in your base.
Now, here again, things depend on what the larger corporations goals are. If they are seriously out to get you then harassment alone won't work but if they are messing with you - just because they can - it might. If it stops being fun for them and they aren't able to do the things they want to do because of your harassment - then they might get tired of it and go away.
I've played/fought Stealthers in Planetside and ... if you wanted to be ... you could really make your self a royal pain in the ass to someone.
Faction Schools Orbiting vs. Kiting |
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Threv Echandari
Caldari K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:46:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Threv Echandari on 13/11/2008 19:52:32 Before Quantum Rise I would have said go for it! Now I'm not so sure. A Stealth Bomber is Fun and has good bang for the buck. Merin has some good points to make but TBH he just sounds disgruntled that the SB could not live up to his potential. I have had lots of fun in SB's and used them as my main ship for awhile as it was the first T2 ship I could fly. Post QR, the Longe range SB pilots will need to rethink their fit a bit I replacing one of the 2x Sensor boosters with a Target Painter. (I would not get rid of the Remote Sensor damps as those are what will keep you from being 0ne-shotted quickly.) Some Close Range Bomber pilots (Crazy people ) will already have the Webber and might will also want the TP to compenstate for reduced damage (Train up Signature Focusing forthat extra bit of oomph).. but they will have to Sacrfice a Damp or Booster to do this.
The comments about submarine warfare are dead-on, as well as using them to harass non-combatants in empire wars. But to use them in the manner of a "Traditional PvP" weapon is to invite heartache and loss mails. (Also note "Comedy SB" ops with Black-ops BS have been some of the most fun I've had with BS's going down like *****es.. but you need to have the numbers.and the Black-ops BS)
I still think however the Bombs are STILL somewhat useless (for the price and size) and since I'm in Empire now they a completely useless for me. OTher than Hasseling a RR gang and the Carrier Rep circle jerk (EMP and Neut bombs FTW).
While I would LOVE to be able to warp cloaked, (and that would be the one of the BEST changes they could do IMHO I understand CCP's view that it would eliminate the the other Covops ships roles (except for Scan probing). Why buy a 0 damage Covops when you can have a something that actually can do damage. Though the SB really needs something done.
---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Stymie Jackson
Caldari Resistance is Futile Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:47:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Now here, a submarines real target - was not enemy warships - but their merchant ships, which in EVE would be Haulers, Miners and such.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
Use SB for hunting industrials. Couple times when I was working from home a PC would be me logged in a stealthbomber. Was during POS siege of a system, and during the night they destroyed one of our towers, and erected theirs in it's place. Found a dude inside, ejecting guns and putting them online. Eventually, someone whould have to load them with ammo.
Two hours later, guns up and online, he started to move out of the bubble, intending to load ammo. Took him out, blew up cargo (lots of ammo lol) and restealthed. An hour later, did it again.
Then someone else showed up in a carrier so that was the end of that.
A couple other times, I waited as they looted a destroyed POS, and chased lone industrials, blowing them up as they tried to escape with the goods. Got another duece before they brought in protection.
Good time.
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KInkamache
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:33:00 -
[53]
Originally by: JafoPBCFR Were out there. We are just hard to see! If you werent Gallen id hook ya up in the Steath bomber Channel.
Jafo is there really a SB channel i would love to be on i am a SB pilot as well
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Eigof Tahr
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.13 21:38:00 -
[54]
Check out Dirt Nap Squad. We are almost always looking to recruit stealth bomber pilots who want to have fun pew pew with an intense group.
The advantage of the SB that is being missed by most in this thread is the significant signature radius difference between a SB and a raven.
Check out our killboard and figure out how the effectiveness of a stealth bomber.*
*Not a nerf proof claim |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:25:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin while a stealth bomber warps in with a giant "I'M HERE, RUN AWAY!!!!!!" sign.
Sadly this is the worst bit about Stealth Bombers, it removes the entire point of the "Stealth" role, all they can do at the moment without alerting the enemy too well is sitting off a gate/station/belt as a scout with some volley damage.
Although personally I love Stealth Bombers, always fun to add them into a nice little gang and they make good anti-ECM ships (it startles the **** out of them, most of the time they'll even run off) and they do help stack damage against a target.
However, they need a bit of love with the Cruise Missile damage against all targets, and be able to use Covert Ops cloak to be really loved by everyone. (Also a CPU boost would be very nice).
Until then, they're very nichT ships, with an extremely narrow nichT. Granted, other ships can do what they can do better. But it doesn't eliminate the reason any pilots flies them in the first place: For Fun. They're good ships, just not appreciated.
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Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:25:00 -
[56]
To all those haters....
I did say how with a 9 ship gang, I got over 10% of a pretty good typhoon? Corp mate was also in SB. put together, we got almost 25%. Now say the ship is worthless.
"I could fly a raven and do the same job"
um actually no, I can't fly a raven and do the same job. I can't fly a raven period. Battleships take tons of skills to be good. They also tend to be targets of pvp, putting yourself more at risk of losing your nice 100 mil ship.
stealth bombers work perfectly for what they were made for. get in a gang and bring the damage from afar.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Aurora Security Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:24:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Because, you know, there aren't enough stealth bomber threads on the front page of this forum yet...
Originally by: Basilla Lambros I am also looking for a dedicated SB pilot to show me the ropes, so if you are interested in either, EVEMail me, or respond to this thread.
The "ropes":
1) Get stealth bomber to a station with a manufacturing slot available.
2) Reprocess bomber.
3) Use minerals to build an AF or interceptor.
4) Win.
Until bombers get the covert ops cloak and/or cheap bombs, they will be trash ships and only flown for the same reasons people fly BattleBadgers.
A.S.S.H.A.T. would beg to differ. --------- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. Eve job list |
Mithos Victus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.14 17:40:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The key difference here is that a submarine has the ability to approach the target without being detected, while a stealth bomber warps in with a giant "I'M HERE, RUN AWAY!!!!!!" sign. Since you have no stealth, there's no reason to fly it over the countless ships that are much better in combat.
Offgrid bookmarks. Easy. Just like understanding military conflict. All you have to do is have scope and avoid two-dimensional thought processes.
If combat was solely about who could kill more efficiently than the next guy then military history would vastly different than it actually is. All the technological developments for the past few millennium that were aimed at killing people more and more efficiently are simply a byproduct of what really wins wars. Money and resources.
Stealth bombers are designed to hit the enemy where it hurts. The moment you lock yourself into thinking that the only thing that matters in armed conflict is who flies the meanest boat is when you lose scope of the conflict itself.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:15:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mithos Victus What do cloaked SBs along alliance trade routes do again? Oh that's right, they cause fear and panic.
Stealth bombers are designed to hit the enemy where it hurts.
Nice story, interestingly written - but doesnt has much content for eve unfortunately.
There is absolutely nothing that i have to be afraid of when encountering a solo sb, unless i intend to go afk ;) that counts for all shiptypes.
It cannot lock frigs fast enough to scramble them and isnt strong enough to threaten bigger shiptypes. Heck i wouldnt be surprised, even if a sb does the imo best it can,fits closerange and manages to scramble my badger, i could make it back to the gate these days.
Solo longrange sb have such a low chance of actually killing something id rather play bait in a battlebadger.
For flying sb in gangs, that pilot would do more good in a t1 cruiser. For friggangs or blackop ops they might have some merits but those are niche roles, hardly making it worth to put much skillpoints into bombers.
If you wonna go stealth and solo, skill towards a pilgrim or arazu, even rapiers do ok and til youre there just fit a cloak to a t1 cruiser. You will have a much wider range of targets that you can attack = more kills = more action and fun.
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Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:52:00 -
[60]
Quote: It cannot lock frigs fast enough to scramble them and isnt strong enough to threaten bigger shiptypes.
currently 957 scan res in my hound, no remote boost. --
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
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