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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:54:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Veldya I have no problem with the theory behind the changes, however, they didn't take into account the negative aspects of missiles. Time it takes to do damage, their vulnerability to area effect damage, defenders and lose a lot more damage to jamming as fired salvos lose locks.
There are just no real upside to missiles anymore to warrant the negative baggage. They should just make them resolve damage instantaneous and not be vulnerable to area effect damage and defenders given a battleship with an AB will be mitigating half the damage before you hit any resistances.
Except there is no way to avoid the same class missile as what you are flying in now.
If your sig radius is large enough, and the missile catches you, it will hit for some decent damage.
So MWD will no longer save your ass anymore against a missile, it's quite the opposite now. (Unless you are outrunning torps. but that's different.)
No if you are using an afterburner a single armour repair unit of your shipsize can tank 2 missileusing ships of your ships size or larger.
For a missileship to have any chance of breaking even a weak tank you need to be dual webbed & dual painted.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hyveres on 12/11/2008 09:13:53
Originally by: Arcane Mystery So, they fly to fast for you to do full damage? Web them maybe? They fly to fast for you to catch up? Tried using an AB? Their sig radius to small? Tried using a Target Painter? Don't want to sacrifice 2-3 mids from your tank to fit web/AB/Painter? Maybe you should try to use cruise missiles instead then?
Try to adapt and work out new ways to do things after a change in game instead of just expecting everything to work as before, that usually helps. Also, before you say I have no clue what I talk about.. I fly raven a lot and it works just fine, even after the patch, with some modifications to my old setup.
Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:30:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hyveres Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
Maybe that's your problem right there: you're trying to do it the same way, when things have changed. What targets are you having problems with? How hard is your tank pushed right now? What is it about your tank that requires the full rack of midslots?
For the record, the standard mission-runner battlecruisers have no tanking the bonus room, and they already have weapons that slices and dices small targetą
Killing 1m bounty angel battleships in a drake is pointless.
Effectivly this patch says go turretboat , missiles are so inefficient that they might as well be considered obsolete. Heavy missiles suck vs cruisers , Light missiles suck vs Frigates , Cruise missiles suck vs battleships.
Using drones for small targets is fine , but having to use heavy drones to have proper damage vs battleships just means its probably better to fly any other race's ships.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:48:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Shintai
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 12/11/2008 09:13:53
Originally by: Arcane Mystery So, they fly to fast for you to do full damage? Web them maybe? They fly to fast for you to catch up? Tried using an AB? Their sig radius to small? Tried using a Target Painter? Don't want to sacrifice 2-3 mids from your tank to fit web/AB/Painter? Maybe you should try to use cruise missiles instead then?
Try to adapt and work out new ways to do things after a change in game instead of just expecting everything to work as before, that usually helps. Also, before you say I have no clue what I talk about.. I fly raven a lot and it works just fine, even after the patch, with some modifications to my old setup.
Ever tried to tank AE L4 bonus room with just 3 midslots used for tanking? on a shieldtanker.
Make it work out for a normal raven and I might agree with you.
Whine less. As an armour tanker its not a place to be already without some extra help. So in short you just got put down with the rest of us. There is a reason why 95% of mission runners fly raven/cnr/golem.
So get a friend or logistics if you cant handle the very heavy DPS room!
Damn whiners.
Oh I can handle it , heck I am glad I was already moving to a turret boat before this nerf came along and its good to fly ships without any real weaknesses and instant damage :)
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:54:00 -
[5]
Time/isk ratio is too low to make it worthwhile.
That is what makes it pointless.
Any cruise missile setup was always inferior to a comparable turretsetup for the proper damagetype.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 14:33:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 14:35:56
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 11:26:19
Originally by: Sanjuro Yojimbo ...not being able to kill a t1 frig in my cnr with cncl's and faction ammo is sucky...
Newsflash for you: You're not supposed to hit frigates with battleship sized weapons! Deal with it!
The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:20:23 Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:18:50
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Hyveres The same way railboats and beamships are not supposed to hit frigates at 80 km + ranges when the frigates are static right?
Once turretships are incapable of hitting frigates for enough damage to outdps a single small shieldbooster or small armour repair module nomatter the range , or frigates velocity I will agree with you.
So you would be okay with never being able to hit a moving frigate inside of 40km? Sounds like you need to train for rails.
As it is now lobbing cruise missiles at a frig within 250 km is a waste of ammo , so all about the dronebay.
Take a turretbased ship and fire at long or extreme ranges and you might one volley the same frig.
As for some said about the MWD effect, to hit a frigate for meaningfull damage means using cruisersized weapons or frigatesized ones.
Try killing any frigatesetup that includes somekind of regen module with cruise missiles or torpedoes and you will fail.
And you know the fun part , missiles still have their classic drawbacks , flight time , extremly affected by target velocity with no way to compensate, etc .
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:22:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:24:20 Edited by: Hyveres on 23/11/2008 15:23:45
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/11/2008 15:21:05
Originally by: Hyveres Try killing any frigatesetup that includes somekind of regen module with cruise missiles or torpedoes and you will fail.
You SHOULD fail! FYI, torps are intended for battleship sized targets. If you want to shoot frigates, fit the proper weapons!
Mr. Waa-waa-I-want-things-broken-again-so-I-can-play-EVE-on-easy-mode... stop crying. The games weapon types are now reasonably balanced, AS THEY SHOULD BE!
Btw, I fly missile ships
So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
Or are them hitting the frigates ok?
And tbh since you are an obvious PvPer I dont see the point in arguing with you , missiles got a PvP buff and a PvE nerf. While rockets(and only rockets) became useless for anything except killing drones.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hyveres So why not nerf beams , rails and arty's then
If by "nerf" you mean "remove optimal and allow them to hit at any range" then sure.
And make their damage dependant on target velocity vs sig radius ofc :)
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:34:00 -
[10]
TBH frigs is just a side argument. Since there are only 1 situation where I will use battleship sized missiles vs frigates.
The main complaint from missileusers is being tanked by battleships , at any range and problems doing meaningfull damage towards cruisers at any range.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The majority of carebears have never seen a nanoship ingame.
People like yourself were the ones whining for the nanonerf
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:19:56
Originally by: soulkiller3
Originally by: Kematian My 1/2 cent on this, as I was Caldari pre-nerf and have switched to a new indy-pathed Amarr now, is that for any reason if my standard missiles were suddenly doing better DPS than heavies, something was broken. Bad.
Was you shooting frigs by any chance, if so then standerd will hit better.
Maybe you should field test properly.
For cruisersized targets use Light missiles , For Battleship sized targets use Heavy missiles For Capital ship targets use cruise missiles.
If you want to hit frigates use drones.
Talking moving targets ofc.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:40:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:40:29
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:31:22 Maybe you should train some skills.
Close-range missiles are now a far superior weapon system.
The missile whining is a classic case of people not properly applying the numbers to realistic, sensible game situations.
And long range missiles are a clearly inferior one.
Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Heck at 250 km ranges a Rokh should outdps a cruiseraven against more or less any target that is not a static BS or larger ship.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.27 12:31:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Hyveres on 27/11/2008 12:31:53 Only minmatar lacks snipercapability at extreme ranges.
As for the AB issue for a battleship to gain an avoidance advantage due to transversal will usually mean getting within webrange and orbiting.
For most missileboats webrange is really not where you want to be due to the squishy nature of your ships. Too few lowslots to effectivly armourtank coupled with not enough mid to fit propulsion + utility + shieldtank means missileboats are relativly fragile.
The change is fine if they will take a look at slot composition and allow more caldari ships to run an effective armourtank. But being squishy and forced to engage close range in order for our weapons to be effective is a bad bad tradeoff.
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