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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:56:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Kerfira
Not really. Missiles are still pretty good, unless you insist on using them against target sizes they're not built for.
All the weapon types now require you to get into the correct tactical situation to be used optimally. Missiles didn't before. This rewards pilot skill (not skill points) as it is up to the pilot (and fc) to actually create that tactical situation.
Another advantage I see is that since speed has been nerfed and missiles brought into line, fleet composition means a lot more. Range is again a tactical tool, and support is once again a valuable fleet component.
Accept the fact that missiles are no longer one-size-pwns-all.... They never should have been....
I'm noticing a bit of revisionist history becoming a common theme discussing missiles; missiles were never a one-size-pwns-all weapon because of their obvious weakness against faster ships which made up the majority of one's opponents. With the nano-nerf and missile changes that weakness has been expanded to not only include those ships traveling at what have been deemed to be speed tank speeds (i.e. AB, non-target painted/sig boosted) but also any ship smaller than yourself.
And while that sounds like it makes sense because other weapon systems have similar limitations, we return to the age old issue of shield tankers being unable to tackle and tank at the same time, to which the usual response of "have someone else tackle for you" is applied. The problem with this is EVE is a numbers game and if by using another type of ship your opponent is able to tackle with their dps ships and have more of them since they haven't sacrificed pilots to be dedicated tacklers (or alternately still have the dedicated tacklers but have free mid-slots for utility such as additional webs, TDs, etc, etc) it can be the difference in a fight. While the issue still existed pre-QR; post-QR the issue has become more obvious due to a greater need for reliance on conventional tanks.
The truth is its even more complicated than this due to the balance of fitting tank vs gank on both shield and armor tankers and the increase in sig radius from passive shield tanking (which has an even greater detrimental effect now) as well as agility issues due to fitting plates and the like and the affect that can have on one's ability to speed tank. But my general feeling is that things are far less "balanced" post QR than they were for a long time before. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:26:00 -
[272]
HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is? ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Talon Calais
Gallente Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:32:00 -
[273]
So many tears.
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Inturist
Soviet Force Soviet Mercenary
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:33:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Inturist on 18/11/2008 07:33:28 Never in my life i was whining about something CCP introduced in new patch , but this time , seriously , CCP went to far, should at least review missiles and just make a q/a topic to discuss this with players .
edit: Some words ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:41:00 -
[275]
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
6 is less than 8. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:43:00 -
[276]
Everyone talks about missiles as if they are the only thing that got nerfed. What about the range nerf on guns now? For a mission runner, hitting anything with a gun is making the missions last way too long.
You didn't get much outside the optimal and falloff as it was, now it's ridiculous. The speed nerf means a lot of the larger NPC ships can stay out of your range and pound you with missiles because you can't fit anything that gets the speed to get close enough to shoot back. |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:44:00 -
[277]
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:45:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Kerfira on 18/11/2008 08:46:29
Originally by: Haradgrim I'm noticing a bit of revisionist history becoming a common theme discussing missiles; missiles were never a one-size-pwns-all weapon because of their obvious weakness against faster ships which made up the majority of one's opponents.
Right.... Apart from nano'ed ships, heavy missiles and to some extent cruise missiles worked well against all shiptypes. As for nano... Seriously, you're trying to argue that one flawed game mechanic (which has now been reduced) is enough of a reason to keep another equally flawed one
My main is a Caldari pilot. He has ~12m SP in missiles and 300k in guns. Missiles are still a very good weapons system, as long as you think and attack targets they're good against. My guess is that it's the 'think' part that most missile users has so many problems with as before they didn't need to, just target and press f1-f2-f3...
All other weapons systems require you to think! Now missiles do too. If you can't adapt to that, that tells something about you.....
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:52:00 -
[279]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no? |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 09:05:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no?
What kind of noobish setup is that? Even what is the ship? Suppose that's a raven, point(short range with torps?) w/o MWD = fail, CFC when there is no cap consumption of note = fail, and SPR in PVP = even more fail Maybe it's a HAM drake then? No, still total fail on abovementioned reasons; maybe just SPR got better but PVP drakes fit DC II/PDS, not SPR |
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 10:05:00 -
[281]
NOT NEARLY FAR ENOUGH!
I think missiles should have been nerfed all the way back to the stone age. ---- Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*coughcough*aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrr!! |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 10:13:00 -
[282]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no?
What kind of noobish setup is that? Even what is the ship? Suppose that's a raven, point(short range with torps?) w/o MWD = fail, CFC when there is no cap consumption of note = fail, and SPR in PVP = even more fail Maybe it's a HAM drake then? No, still total fail on abovementioned reasons; maybe just SPR got better but PVP drakes fit DC II/PDS, not SPR
Just throwin' it up in the air, I fly amarr, all my setups are mwd/booster/sebo or point.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:29:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx Just throwin' it up in the air, I fly amarr, all my setups are mwd/booster/sebo or point.
Thats the point, you can't do that with caldari and its not enough to compare slot layout, many ships with very favorable slot layouts are ineffective due to a lack of CPU/grid. The balance issues are a lot less superfluous than that. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:31:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Blastil
Originally by: BhallSpawn missles before patch in pvp - sucks
missles after patch in pvp - sucks donkey balls
I have a handfull of AF loses that would disagree with your concept of missles.
Your statement doesn't mean you got killed because missiles are great at PvP, it means that you fought unwisely in an unfavorable for you situation and lost.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:32:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Brea Lafail ITT people who don't understand the missile changes.
I bet since you understand them very much you never fly misile boats in PvP, do you.. noone does anymore for that matter, if for the lone torp ravens out there b/c the ppl don't have other race BS skills.
You are correct, I bring an ECM boat for PVP as they are actually useful.
Good, so we both agree that missiles are worthless in PvP now, and that only viable role for a Caldari PvP pilot is either in ECM ships or maybe as a remote sniper, or in a blob, where it really doesn't matter all that much..
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:34:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Macky Alcaz so, before i did 250 stable damage / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 400 on hull...
now i do 138 damage (all the time) / hit on my rats shield/armor and about 200 on hull...
I use 'arbalest' cruise missile launchers and shoot angel rats.
Before i could take down a 1,2mill rat really easy and faction rats with some reloading but now it feels like im engaging faction spawns when im actually firing at the 500k rats..
Thanks for ****ing up my daily source of income out in 0.0
Oh, poor you.... having to adapt and all.....
Look up a module called 'Target Painter'. There's also something called 'Drones' to help you with smaller targets.
Last time i checked Target painters, they help with ships signature radius, not explosion speed of missiles. Way to go for copy&paste responses.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:36:00 -
[287]
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
The geddon has "only" 3 mid slots yes. It also has "only" 8 low slots for tank, uninterrupted by requirement to fit tackling modules there. i'd fight you in your cruise raven with a Target painter and light drones vs my geddon any day, want to schedule a fight?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:37:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 18/11/2008 07:48:15
Everyone talks about missiles as if they are the only thing that got nerfed. What about the range nerf on guns now? For a mission runner, hitting anything with a gun is making the missions last way too long.
You didn't get much outside the optimal and falloff as it was, now it's ridiculous. The speed nerf means a lot of the larger NPC ships can stay out of your range and pound you with missiles because you can't fit anything that gets the speed to get close enough to shoot back.
CCP seems to be fast tracking this game to the same destination that SWG went.
Missiles are not the only thing that got nerfed but this is the topic of this post. Post your other comments in the appropriate other posts..
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:38:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: MenanceWhite HURRR TACKLE WHINE MIDS LOL. Look at amarr, the geddeon has 3 midslots.
BUT YOU ARMORTANK!!! yes and that's where we also put our dmgmod/tracking enhancer/cap relays/etc.
The point with caldari and midslots is?
4-5 lows for tank, 2-3 for damagemods; what's the problem with Amarr then? 1 low moved to mids on Raven& Rokh would make it a lot better
Two LSE II, Two Invul II, 24km point, PWNAGE 2x BCU II, 2x CFC II or 2x BCU II and 2x SPR II.
Easy as cake, no?
Wow, i mean with such an awesome tank and amazing PvP potential, the setup you just posted will surely defeat any other well fit BS.. mhm...
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:39:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Marchocias NOT NEARLY FAR ENOUGH!
I think missiles should have been nerfed all the way back to the stone age.
That's because you can not think.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:40:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Just throwin' it up in the air, I fly amarr, all my setups are mwd/booster/sebo or point.
Maybe you should switch to flying a Raven in the setup you just proposed then and then run your mouth some more.
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Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.11.18 17:35:00 -
[292]
Back in the day... (about 4 years ago I think) missiles were something to be feared. There was no sig effect, speet was the only way to really keep out of their way.. Torps did SPLASH damage (rather neat in a Fleet battle but caused harm to friendlys close in.. as well as unintended Concordage when running a mission with friends in Empire).
Missiles were adjusted, whinage abouned, people adapted.. life went on. Missiles were not as UBAR the explosion radius and sig effects plus the time to target made them a second choice for fleet ops unless it was POS bashing, then Torps were the item of choice. Missiles made a darn nice ratting platform though...
Today missiles have been "readjusted" again. Sadly, the new attributes make using them pretty much useless. For a battleship to have to equip Heavy missiles to hit smaller targets is just plain silly. MOST (not all I know.. but the majority) of missile users are sheild tankers. The need to fit webs/TP's seriously affect the tanking ability on a midslot ship.
I do honestly believe that the new missile attributes really have gone too far. Oh I'll adapt, use guns, etc.. but it's sad to see a races "Primary" weapon relagated to a "Well I have a free slot so I might as well put a launcher on... *sigh*" choice.
Historically speaking missile boats were NEVER the highest ranking DPS dealers out there. They just managed to deal good dmg while having a decent tank. This has been taken away....
I really do hope that CCP rethinks this balance or at least give us a definative "It's not going to change.. Live with it" kind of answer so we at least know if they ever intend on revisiting missiles.
well that's my 2 isk worth anyway...
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Rothgar Detris
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Posted - 2008.11.18 20:41:00 -
[293]
I really feel the need to weight in on this matter..
I have now been on over 7 months, have over 7 Mill SP, Caldari, and almost 1 mill SP in missiles, including lvl 4 in both Hvy and Cruise. I have all the supppports trained to at least lvl 3, lvl 4 in most. I have decent drone skills, including the skills to use t2 light and medium drones.
Using a Drake to do pratically any lvl 3 mission before QR, and taking the time to take out all targets, used to average about 30-45 mins. My tank (With all lvl4 supports and t2 equip) usually would never go below 60%. Now, I frequently find my tank sinking below 40%, and taking 10-12 mins PER BC-BS. In most cases too, sending out Drones for any pocket/spawn except last tends to be thier death warrent, and t2 Drones aren't exactly cheap.
Funny thing is, now it seems that the NPC missiles are actually doing MORE dmg than before. Which makes me wonder if CCP only applied the "nerfs" to players and left NPC's at Pre-QR calculations. I have to agree that cruise missiles are almost completely useless in just about any mission now, unless you know for sure that you are ONLY going to be facing BS's. Any mix, and your ship is at the mercy of THE SMALLEST SHIP(S) AROUND. Does this make ANY SENSE to anybody else?
Listen, I don't mind making it somewhat harder/higher skill-req's, but this patch REALLY goes too far. I mean, are you SUPPOSED to build a seperate ship and layout for EVERY ship class that you may encounter in a mission? Are we supposed to warp back and forth 4-5 times EVERY room/pocket, just to make sure we are actually doing ANY dmg?
I really think CCP needs to either find some medium point between pre QR and QR calculations, or really do some non-PVP testing of the dmg missile are actually doing in non-uber skill/ships and do some re-calculations. Becuase right now , it is broken.. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:06:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris I really feel the need to weight in on this matter..
I have now been on over 7 months, have over 7 Mill SP, Caldari, and almost 1 mill SP in missiles, including lvl 4 in both Hvy and Cruise. I have all the supppports trained to at least lvl 3, lvl 4 in most. I have decent drone skills, including the skills to use t2 light and medium drones.
Using a Drake to do pratically any lvl 3 mission before QR, and taking the time to take out all targets, used to average about 30-45 mins. My tank (With all lvl4 supports and t2 equip) usually would never go below 60%. Now, I frequently find my tank sinking below 40%, and taking 10-12 mins PER BC-BS. In most cases too, sending out Drones for any pocket/spawn except last tends to be thier death warrent, and t2 Drones aren't exactly cheap.
Funny thing is, now it seems that the NPC missiles are actually doing MORE dmg than before. Which makes me wonder if CCP only applied the "nerfs" to players and left NPC's at Pre-QR calculations. I have to agree that cruise missiles are almost completely useless in just about any mission now, unless you know for sure that you are ONLY going to be facing BS's. Any mix, and your ship is at the mercy of THE SMALLEST SHIP(S) AROUND. Does this make ANY SENSE to anybody else?
Listen, I don't mind making it somewhat harder/higher skill-req's, but this patch REALLY goes too far. I mean, are you SUPPOSED to build a seperate ship and layout for EVERY ship class that you may encounter in a mission? Are we supposed to warp back and forth 4-5 times EVERY room/pocket, just to make sure we are actually doing ANY dmg?
I really think CCP needs to either find some medium point between pre QR and QR calculations, or really do some non-PVP testing of the dmg missile are actually doing in non-uber skill/ships and do some re-calculations. Becuase right now , it is broken..
Do you all idiots pasting "cry more carebears" ... or the like see who this patch is hurting most? It's hurting the newer players mostly. I won't say anything else. Ofc older playwers don't mind and adjust, this guy above for example however is taking about 2x the time to do what he was doing before. That is too far in my books.
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Rothgar Detris
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:31:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Do you all idiots pasting "cry more carebears" ... or the like see who this patch is hurting most? It's hurting the newer players mostly. I won't say anything else. Ofc older playwers don't mind and adjust, this guy above for example however is taking about 2x the time to do what he was doing before. That is too far in my books.
So your skill is ??? Why don't you try actually MAKING A POINT supported by FACTS and EXAMPLES, as oppossed to simplistic, overly generalized, moronic sarcasm, you forum troll.
Or do you need more skill training first? |
Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 21:58:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Joss Sparq Edited by: Joss Sparq on 12/11/2008 02:49:32
I haven't tested it out myself yet (trapped in classes) but I'm starting to wonder if we'll hear the bang from the CNR market crashing even further.
EDIT: Not for any real reason other than a mild panic from certain circles of mission runners who don't like what they see.
Naven prices have crashed?? really?
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:00:00 -
[297]
Well golem is now better then cnr.
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Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:07:00 -
[298]
Edited by: Boon McBwen on 18/11/2008 22:08:16
Originally by: Goyda
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Goyda Wanna kill a missle laden battleship, just get 4 or 5 assault frigs with after burners and you can speed tank cruise and torps. I have wicked missle skills and we tested it. I could not kill the AF. cruise hitting for 11 and torps for 7. I'm just not sure how this makes sense. like saying a REAL battleship would not be able to sink a small destroyer or frigate. sheesh. well it was bound to happen I guess. Every mmorpg I've played turned into making the game easier for new players and the carebear players, which is about the time I moved on. I didn't complain when they nerfed NOS, made sense. And now it's nearly impossible for a battleship to kill a frigate ! like saying you can't squish a bug with your boot because you're SO much bigger than it, and it has a small sig radius.
ugh... and yes I have PLENTY of cheese to go with this whine.
Yeah but a real battleship shooting at a real destroyer is shooting at something that is not only closer to its own size than an Eve AF is to a BS, but also something that is moving much closer to its own speed.
Of course a real destroyer may also be packing weaponry capable of doing massive damage to a battleship. Armor-busting guided missiles, for instance. No shields IRL.
But in before "no comparisons with RL ships plx"
yeah but a RL BS, would one shot a destroyer. :)
uh... no, it wouldn't, i cite the actions of destroyer group Taffy 3 at the battle off Samar during the engagement at Leyte gulf, where one destroyer took several hits from some Japanese behemoths... as proof, i offer this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:21:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Do you all idiots pasting "cry more carebears" ... or the like see who this patch is hurting most? It's hurting the newer players mostly. I won't say anything else. Ofc older playwers don't mind and adjust, this guy above for example however is taking about 2x the time to do what he was doing before. That is too far in my books.
So your skill is ??? Why don't you try actually MAKING A POINT supported by FACTS and EXAMPLES, as oppossed to simplistic, overly generalized, moronic sarcasm, you forum troll.
Or do you need more skill training first?
Tisk tisk, biting the hand that pets you.. i was advocating your side of the story, if you haven't noticed. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:28:00 -
[300]
Allready before QR a raven didnt have a chance to break the tank of a real AF.
Since QR you can do missions faster than before QR, group your cruise missiles and there are far less defender missiles. It just means you need decent drone skills, which is also a requirement for EVERY turret BS. Before QR allready a turret bs can keep shooting a frig, it wouldnt hit it, now a raven requires just like turret BS drone skills for missions, big deal.
And besides that i dont use a target painter, i got my missile skills on lvl 4 and not 5 (so that doesnt take long), and missions go fine. |
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