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Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:46:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Goyda
yeah but a RL BS, would one shot a destroyer. :)
True, but a RL BS wouldn't be bothering to fire at destroyers anyway since they used to be screen keeping away the torpedo boats that could sink a battleship.
Imagine what a mess things would be if CCP introduced the equivalent of torpedo boats.. tiny ships that battleships can't even target that carry enough firepower to potentially sink a capital ship with only a few hits.
Sounds almost like an SB to me (an SB that fires torps... hmm) |
My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.18 22:56:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Rothgar Detris I really feel the need to weight in on this matter..
I have now been on over 7 months, have over 7 Mill SP, Caldari, and almost 1 mill SP in missiles, including lvl 4 in both Hvy and Cruise. I have all the supppports trained to at least lvl 3, lvl 4 in most. I have decent drone skills, including the skills to use t2 light and medium drones.
Using a Drake to do pratically any lvl 3 mission before QR, and taking the time to take out all targets, used to average about 30-45 mins. My tank (With all lvl4 supports and t2 equip) usually would never go below 60%. Now, I frequently find my tank sinking below 40%, and taking 10-12 mins PER BC-BS. In most cases too, sending out Drones for any pocket/spawn except last tends to be thier death warrent, and t2 Drones aren't exactly cheap.
Funny thing is, now it seems that the NPC missiles are actually doing MORE dmg than before. Which makes me wonder if CCP only applied the "nerfs" to players and left NPC's at Pre-QR calculations. I have to agree that cruise missiles are almost completely useless in just about any mission now, unless you know for sure that you are ONLY going to be facing BS's. Any mix, and your ship is at the mercy of THE SMALLEST SHIP(S) AROUND. Does this make ANY SENSE to anybody else?
Listen, I don't mind making it somewhat harder/higher skill-req's, but this patch REALLY goes too far. I mean, are you SUPPOSED to build a seperate ship and layout for EVERY ship class that you may encounter in a mission? Are we supposed to warp back and forth 4-5 times EVERY room/pocket, just to make sure we are actually doing ANY dmg?
I really think CCP needs to either find some medium point between pre QR and QR calculations, or really do some non-PVP testing of the dmg missile are actually doing in non-uber skill/ships and do some re-calculations. Becuase right now , it is broken..
whats your tanks setup? because if you are fitting a psssive you know that alll those sheild rigs you "might" have fitted increas your sig radius hugely unless the apropriate rig skills are trained and then its still a whole lot bigger and missile may hurt just that much more.... with the new missile damage formulas taking sig radius and speed into account i wonder how other passive tankers are doing? (just wondering really)
you may not be passive tanking in which case ignore what i have to say. |
Rothgar Detris
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:33:00 -
[303]
Edited by: Rothgar Detris on 18/11/2008 23:33:40 No, I am active tanking w/ 2X Invuln.II's. a Photon II and Heat II. All are between 70-80% when active. 3 Field Purger rigs. All shield skills at 4 or higher.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:57:00 -
[304]
i am an all basic certificate :P pilot, 3 mill SP in missiles
i use a CNR with the following: 7 T2 siege launchers; 1 SS 100 MN afterburner, 1 CN large shield booster, 1 PWNAGE painter, 3 CN hardeners; 2 CN ballistic control systems, 3 beta power diagnosis systems; 1 hydraulic bay thrusters for missile speed, 1 rocket fuel cache partition for flight time, 1 missile flare for explosion velocity; 5 t2 light drones, 2 TP-900 heavy target painting drones.
i can kill an average guristas BS with 3 volleys of CN torpedoes (faction ammo), it takes me longer to kill a cruiser or a heavy assault cruiser than before. I can no longer instapop interceptors and assault frigates in missions.
when you apply 60% signature bonus to the target things aren't as ugly as without it.
Golem is far superior than the CNR now, it gets a bonus to TP signature and +25% to explosion velocity.
and still i think that missiles were overdone, as non proficient ships have difficulties with achieving the same performance with missile weaponry as caldari can.
the new system is much, much better, but is very raw... not favorable for not 'maxxed out' ships. Devs need to tweak it to more applicability. |
Novista
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Posted - 2008.11.19 00:59:00 -
[305]
Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
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Boon McBwen
Caldari State Protectorate Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.19 02:46:00 -
[306]
i just wanna know how to make make sure my cerb wont suck at pvp (aside from pilot incompetence)... |
M0rning5tar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.19 03:25:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Novista Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
NERF FALCON!!!111111!!
And too the guy above me, fit your cerb with faction lights.
Caldari are just LOL now apart from ECM. |
Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.19 05:36:00 -
[308]
All I can say is Payback's a *****.
Rawr.
Adapt or die!!!
We gallenteans have been dealing with f***ed up weapons systems since the game began... our drones are about as ******ed as that kid *points at the corner where a kid is eating lead-based paint-chips from the radiator and washing them down with paste* |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:29:00 -
[309]
There was no need to alter any weapon damage in this patch.
Yes, we had a speed patch in this nerf But all that did was curb the unorthodox nano ships that were using fittings in the wrong way. Personally, our corp never had a problem with nano ships,they all died the same way.
What went seriously wrong was all the nerfs that followed it. Drones, turrets, missiles and such. There was no need for all that and it's totally borked the game for almost everyone. Things were fine as they were so long as unnatural speeds were curbed. Speed tanking always has been a means to cut missile damage but the idea was to mitigate the damage rather than avoid it completely. Nano ships took this a step too far and made it difficult even for tacklers to catch them.
What purpose does nerfing every weapon do except return the nano ship to the game? Now, you can have an almost perfect speed tank v missiles with an AB rather than using a MWD and several nano mods. Cruise missiles don't do much damage to a stationary cruiser now so that HAC that was nano'd before only needs to fit an AB to tank them completely. Even without it, any HAC can tank a Raven all day now if the Raven is fited with Cruise. Let's face it, that's what the ship has a bonus for so who isn't going to fit the weapon that gives them the best bonus?
Also, WTF were CCP thinking with this optimal/falloff nerf? Turrets were fine as they were.
This patch has served only one purpose: To toally **** off most of the playerbase.
I have 3 accounts, 1 each for mission runner, industrialist and PVP. The only one that's any use now is the industrialist an even then with this patch, there's no difference between now and what he always used to do. So much for the industrial buff We still can't find empty MR and Copy slots anywhere in Empire and we still can't put up a research POS without doing 99 years of mission running to get a +8 faction standing to circumvent that problem.
Only one (fairly) good thing came from this patch: The Orca. The rest was just a collection of badly thought out nerfs that has wrecked the game for the majority of players.
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:56:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
We still can't find empty MR and Copy slots anywhere in Empire and we still can't put up a research POS without doing 99 years of mission running to get a +8 faction standing to circumvent that problem.
Missionrunning for faction standings? COSMOS and FW plexing are the correct way to go if you're interested in standings. |
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.19 06:58:00 -
[311]
Originally by: M0rning5tar
Originally by: Novista Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
NERF FALCON!!!111111!!
And too the guy above me, fit your cerb with faction lights.
Caldari are just LOL now apart from ECM.
Lol, having to use faction weapons just to get barely acceptable usefulness out of a weapon is completely unacceptable. |
Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.19 07:13:00 -
[312]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
We still can't find empty MR and Copy slots anywhere in Empire and we still can't put up a research POS without doing 99 years of mission running to get a +8 faction standing to circumvent that problem.
Missionrunning for faction standings? COSMOS and FW plexing are the correct way to go if you're interested in standings.
FW is okay if your corp wants to do it. There's no leeway for a single player to do FW if they are a member of a player corp without involving the whole corp. Cosmos are fine if you want to pay millions of isk for the tags. Also, that character is an industrialist solo player and not a PVP/mission runner. His skills in gunnery and such are so low, he'd have trouble doing a lvl1 kill mission.
Getting a POS in highsec purely for research is practically impossible for an established corp, there's always one or two who have low standings with the faction. Doing it as a solo player is more possible but then you spend so much time/isk fuelling the POS that you don't have time to make isk.
In general, the industrialist didn't really get much at all in this patch.
Anyway, it's OT for this thread so I'll leave it at that.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.19 07:28:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: M0rning5tar
Originally by: Novista Good job on making caldari even more suck at pvp!
NERF FALCON!!!111111!!
And too the guy above me, fit your cerb with faction lights.
Caldari are just LOL now apart from ECM.
Lol, having to use faction weapons just to get barely acceptable usefulness out of a weapon is completely unacceptable.
*facepalm*
seriously.
FACTION. LIGHTS. <- That's ammo. EVERYONE USED faction ammo since the t2 cruises were crap back then. ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.19 11:17:00 -
[314]
Edited by: Opertone on 19/11/2008 11:17:02 to revive the topic i have to say that there are non caldari missile users, who may not have noticed the changes yet.
eris uses lights, sacrilege uses assault missiles, typhoon uses torpedoes, heretic uses rockets, then vengeance, devoter, huggin and many more have a few missile hardpoints
without maxed out missile performance these ships can loose up to 50% of their DPS, missiles need to be looked into |
Claymaker
Caldari Restless Oblivion
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Posted - 2008.11.19 11:33:00 -
[315]
may sound like whining but I trained missle skills pretty much exclusivly for year and half. I'm caldari and a lot of there ships are missle based. To have them suddenly nerfed this much is a bit of a kick in the balls for time I've spent learning skills. "Adapt or Die" - balls to that after a year+ unless I get to re-allocate skill points on gunnery skills which ain't going to happen. So yes, I'd like the missle nerf looked at again.
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Todd Doughnut
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Posted - 2008.11.19 11:34:00 -
[316]
I dont think CCP went to far with the nerf on missiles.
Heres why:
THEY NERFED EVERYTHING.
People with guns lost substantial DPS from lack of closing speed for example.
Try to occasionally see things from a point of view other than your own myopic one.
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Kia Corallis
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Posted - 2008.11.20 13:36:00 -
[317]
My manticore is now better than a raven at lvl 4 missions?
Still wastes frigs with 1 or 2 cruise, ravens can hardly scratch the paintwork, seems the raven is becoming obsolete, bring on the rokh (still a lot of gunnery training required yet)
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Plan Neun
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 13:52:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Kia Corallis My manticore is now better than a raven at lvl 4 missions?
Still wastes frigs with 1 or 2 cruise, ravens can hardly scratch the paintwork, seems the raven is becoming obsolete, bring on the rokh (still a lot of gunnery training required yet)
The Manticore has better stats when it comes to hitting small target re the Raven. When using a Raven on small ships it is now adviced to use light drones as assistanse when taking em down.
Cheers.
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:24:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Black Scorpio That's because you can not think.
Can I be your friend? ---- Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*coughcough*aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrr!! |
iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:30:00 -
[320]
If missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
You all whined for a nerf to nanos and when nanos got nerfed they had to rebalance everything else, if you dont like it then next time think before you whine.
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:31:00 -
[321]
And ffs in missions use DRONES on frigs just like every other ship has to. I can still run L4s in a CNR just fine.
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Josef Odinssen
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:45:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Todd Doughnut I dont think CCP went to far with the nerf on missiles.
Heres why:
THEY NERFED EVERYTHING.
People with guns lost substantial DPS from lack of closing speed for example.
Try to occasionally see things from a point of view other than your own myopic one.
this.
I have a faction fit CNR for my main. it still works, but its crapper. but its still 10 percent less crap than everything else so meh - 4BN raven is still uber 4BN raven with less ammo costs and more drone work. so im not terribly upset by missile nerf, it saves me some missiles and my drones do more work and my tank is still unbreakable, takes a few minutes longer but then salvaging always takes eons so meh whats the difference. it does however make missiles even more borked for PVP than ever.
My argument against CCP is they are not so much in a Eve arms race as a Eve Arms run backwards.
Imagine if, one day G W Bush rang up the US Air Force and said
"now lads, we know after 70 years of rocketry development youve got some kick ass missiles that can one shot a Mig29. but thats kind of wrong so lets go back to 1942 and a good old fashioned gatling gun"
CCP must be the one company in the world that think guns, not missiles are the future.
Im mean seriously. does ANYONE imagine if we ever have a war in space they will be fitting M60's to space shuttles?
The fact iceland doesnt have any credible military force explains a lot of reasoning why icelandic developers fail so badly at Military tactics and armaments developments.
At least EA games has a quick skim thru Janes Defence weekly.
Perhaps we should have a whip round and send some military technology of the 21st century books to CCP before the next nerf.
I dont really have any axe to grind. my main has over 16M in gunnery and only about 3M in missiles and all relevent missile skills buffed plus T2 drones so I'm not nearly as hard hit as most players and "can adapt and not die" but i do think some of the nerfs should have been buffs to counter technology instead. constant nerfing is contradicting the whole principal of military advancement.
and also, where do i sign up to be a NPC pirate? those boys get better by the day, especially that dude with his 500K DPS supertorp.
by the time the jove come we is gonna be ****ed beyond repair!
I mean, at this rate we will using cannonballs and swords - welcome to Eve - the 1842 Napoleonic Age
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:54:00 -
[323]
The nerfs are not part of the storyline, they're game balance changes so we can play internet spaceships. Tech 3 is coming, buckle up.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:58:00 -
[324]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra If missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
You all whined for a nerf to nanos and when nanos got nerfed they had to rebalance everything else, if you dont like it then next time think before you whine.
As you can with a sniper fit BS, what's your point?
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:59:00 -
[325]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:00:00 -
[326]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra And ffs in missions use DRONES on frigs just like every other ship has to. I can still run L4s in a CNR just fine.
I bet you can still run missions fine in a faction fit CNR. That should not be a requirement for missiles to be usable. Also conicidentally Caldari have the LOWEST drone space, which should have been offset by the fact missiles would take care of smaller craft.
Since misiles are now ****ED.. how about you bring also inline caldari drone bays to 125 drone space/bandwidth as well?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:01:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Black Scorpio on 20/11/2008 15:01:46
Originally by: Furb Killer That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
Really? i highly doubt that bro..
Light missiles had trouble catching interceptors, don't even mention cruises in the same line of thought. If you were in a mwd-ing interceptor orbiting a raven and you were instapopped, you were doing it wrong.
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:02:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:03:47 I also doubt it, but you said they could, wasnt going to argue with you on that point...
Have you ever used a non-missile BS? I have with good skills, faction fitting. I had it compared to my CNR with low skills, and before i had fitted faction stuff on it. The result, CNR is far better than megathron. Only amarr BS can compete on some missions with CNR. And raven got enough drone bay to use 5 meds and 5 lights, what more do you want? ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:03:00 -
[329]
What, are you going to take out those pesky interceptors with your 5 heavy drones? The raven has enough room for 5 mediums and 5 lights, exactly enough to server their intended purpose.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:03:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail.
Missiles are still able to be shot down with defenders? even easier now with grouping.. your point was?
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