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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:04:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Karille What, are you going to take out those pesky interceptors with your 5 heavy drones? The raven has enough room for 5 mediums and 5 lights, exactly enough to server their intended purpose.
It sure does, however i thought you wanted to bring ships in line with other ships, not give futile lessons on how 5 drones fit in a raven. I can surely fit 5, but i'd prefer to fit twice that just as say the mega.. since they're both tier 2 BS. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:05:00 -
[332]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is... |
Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:05:00 -
[333]
And once again, I think many of us... (both whiners and those genuinely concerned) would like to have some offical response from CCP on this Missile issue.
That's not too much to ask is it? |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:06:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:07:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:03:47 I also doubt it, but you said they could, wasnt going to argue with you on that point...
Have you ever used a non-missile BS? I have with good skills, faction fitting. I had it compared to my CNR with low skills, and before i had fitted faction stuff on it. The result, CNR is far better than megathron. Only amarr BS can compete on some missions with CNR. And raven got enough drone bay to use 5 meds and 5 lights, what more do you want?
So now everyone should get a CNR to be as effective as before? Everyone here's trowing out a flat line with that ridiculous.. yeaaahh my CNR works still ok on missions..
And it should.. the fact you now need a CNR to be ok with missions is borked. Not to mention PvP use for other caldari missile boats.. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:07:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
I'd fight your raven in my megathron any day.. how about that.. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:08:00 -
[337]
How about read my post again and tell me where i say you need a CNR to be as effective as before.
At the moment raven is still best non faction BS in general for missions. TRY another BS and find out yourself |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:08:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions.
Weapon grouping does not increase the DPS, it only groups your shots into 1. That still can be hit by defender and actually destroys more of your DPS if hit with a defender. I don't know where you get your facts from. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:09:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
I'd fight your raven in my megathron any day.. how about that..
Sure, the day i have decent missile skills we do that. And then we see who wins while you are trying to reach me while i am pounding your mega with torps. |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:09:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Furb Killer How about read my post again and tell me where i say you need a CNR to be as effective as before.
At the moment raven is still best non faction BS in general for missions. TRY another BS and find out yourself
I would disagree with you and quote the Dominix. |
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:10:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
I'd fight your raven in my megathron any day.. how about that..
Sure, the day i have decent missile skills we do that. And then we see who wins while you are trying to reach me while i am pounding your mega with torps.
Go ahead and train them |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:13:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions.
Weapon grouping does not increase the DPS, it only groups your shots into 1. That still can be hit by defender and actually destroys more of your DPS if hit with a defender. I don't know where you get your facts from.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:24:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
If you use a mega for missions, why are you commenting in a thread about missiles? Train for a raven, try it, then come back, 'k?
Caldari were the best at PvE, that's why I them for my mission-running alt. Now they are worse than some other factions for missions. Other factions that are actually useful for PvP beyond e-war.
Atleast I had the forethought to start cross-training my main to amarr a year ago. |
TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:25:00 -
[344]
Edited by: TZeer on 20/11/2008 15:25:55
Quote: If missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
Stop talking crap. No raven have, can or will ever intapop any interceptor going full speed.
As long as the inty was doing full speed the cruise couldnt do much.
What could destroy it was: MWD activated, webbed by rapier or any other tackler, and a load of precissions incomming.
Another thing was forcing it to get closer if it wanted to tackle, then neut it and put precissions at it. But you never killed it in one volley.
Quote:
Originally by: iloni atoriandraIf missles werent nerfed they would of been stupidly overpowered. Ravens could 1 vollet interceptors going full speed, its called balance.
You all whined for a nerf to nanos and when nanos got nerfed they had to rebalance everything else, if you dont like it then next time think before you whine.
As you can with a sniper fit BS, what's your point?
Quote: That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
1: As long as the inty was keeping it`s speed up, no raven would instapop it. Period. 2: Shooting at inty from far away with raven = useless unless you had it tackled. 3: Shooting inty from far away with sniping turrets BS, might give you a wrecking hit and instapop it. Anyway, you had bigger chance of success with a turret ship shooting a inty then missiles at long range. 4: Going close with inty on a missile was very bad if it made you speed go down, or if you went inside neut range, etc.
The first patch that was on SISI people where talking about "Drake of doom" that could instpop intys. Well i tested it. Guess what, the precission lights had so crap range that the "Drake of doom" couldnt kill my inty. The missiles didnt have long enough flight time to catch up with the inty.
Yes you could use rigs, but then you had to sacrifice other rigs for missiles, wich meant the missiles would do less to almsot zero damage when it first hit.
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Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:39:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:41:26 Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:41:01
Originally by: Brea Lafail
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:05:30 Newsflash: defenders are broken in game, it isnt easier with grouped weapons, in missions much less defenders are fired resulting in increased dps...
My mega for mission has in its drone bay: 10 meds 5 lights. Unless i lose a drone i dont use the extra drone space at all. How about you just get a megathron and compare it to raven, and find out how much better the raven is...
If you use a mega for missions, why are you commenting in a thread about missiles? Train for a raven, try it, then come back, 'k?
Caldari were the best at PvE, that's why I them for my mission-running alt. Now they are worse than some other factions for missions. Other factions that are actually useful for PvP beyond e-war.
Atleast I had the forethought to start cross-training my main to amarr a year ago.
I got also a CNR, and atm my navy mega is just gathering dust because CNR is so much better
About raven insta popping inties, i know it doesnt, but a missile fanboy claimed they could so didnt argue with that. A turret BS also wont kill an interceptor.
Posting here again because in previous post it went wrong, (editted now so is correct, but anyway):
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:06:06 Concerned about what? Raven is still in general best mission runner...
Even more dps on BS due to weapons grouping in missions.
Weapon grouping does not increase the DPS, it only groups your shots into 1. That still can be hit by defender and actually destroys more of your DPS if hit with a defender. I don't know where you get your facts from.
FFS have you even tried missions...
with a raven now 6 times less defender missiles are fired when grouped, one still removes same portion of dps, so 6 times less dps removed.
Get a clue. ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:48:00 -
[346]
Yes, CCP went much too far. If the missile says it will do 500dmg (unresisted), then it should do 500dmg (unresisted) regardless of how fast the missile or target are moving relative to each other.
What CCP need to clarify is how much damage is done by the explosion of the warhead and how much damage is done by the impact of the warhead. These are two entirely different things.
As it stands the explosion damage is being nerfed by the relative velocity and this does not happen IRL. Sure, this is a space game but it should reflect reality in some places and explosions are one thing that I feel should be reflected accurately.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 15:55:00 -
[347]
Sure when my guns do the damage they say they do, then your missiles can do the damage they say they do.
I can assure you dreadnaughts will become much more popular with that change... ---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:01:00 -
[348]
I think the OP wishes he'd run a spell check on his name before he clicked enter game.
cheers
"Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up" |
Josef Odinssen
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:06:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail.
why is "you just fail" the answer everyone trots out?
In what way do i fail? I already pointed out ive got 16M+ in gunnery on my main character and good T2 drone skills so missile changes have affected me by fractions of percent therefore show me how i fail??????
You contradict yourself to make your own point sadly. You say american navy is DEVELOPING railguns to fit to next gen ships.
the key to this is DEVELOPING. they arent NERFING MISSILES in order to fit NEXT GENERATION RAIL GUNS.
get the point? if the US Navy were CCP they wouldnt bother DEVELOPING next gen railguns they would simply take their missiles back to 1960s variants and fit some WW2 railguns and call it a job well done.
if you dont see the point im making that balance should be progessive FORWARD DEVELOPMENT i.e if missiles are overpowered then they are so by design, so you DEVELOP better countermeasures i.e BUFF DEFENDERS and ECM - classic counter measures to missiles.
if you think that calling for DEVELOPMENT and PROGRESS = fail thank god you dont work in my research and development team or this time next year we would be making phone calls with 2 cups and a length of string CCP nerfbat style.
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Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:10:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Furb Killer Sure when my guns do the damage they say they do, then your missiles can do the damage they say they do.
I can assure you dreadnaughts will become much more popular with that change...
I agree. It should be the same for hybrids and projectiles also. I'm Gallente. Missiles are hardly my thing either but my point still stands.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:11:00 -
[351]
@Josef Odinssen
This is a game, compare it to games. /nonsense |
Randibuggah
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:12:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Josef Odinssen
Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/11/2008 15:01:24 That raven could also do it when interceptor is in orbit, sniper BS can only do it when transversal is VERY low.
@josef, that is probably why american navy is developing railguns to fit on their next generation ships...
Missiles got advantages, but also disadvantages. Mainly that they are relative very easy to shoot down. Especially in space it should be really easy.
You just fail.
why is "you just fail" the answer everyone trots out?
In what way do i fail? I already pointed out ive got 16M+ in gunnery on my main character and good T2 drone skills so missile changes have affected me by fractions of percent therefore show me how i fail??????
You contradict yourself to make your own point sadly. You say american navy is DEVELOPING railguns to fit to next gen ships.
the key to this is DEVELOPING. they arent NERFING MISSILES in order to fit NEXT GENERATION RAIL GUNS.
get the point? if the US Navy were CCP they wouldnt bother DEVELOPING next gen railguns they would simply take their missiles back to 1960s variants and fit some WW2 railguns and call it a job well done.
if you dont see the point im making that balance should be progessive FORWARD DEVELOPMENT i.e if missiles are overpowered then they are so by design, so you DEVELOP better countermeasures i.e BUFF DEFENDERS and ECM - classic counter measures to missiles.
if you think that calling for DEVELOPMENT and PROGRESS = fail thank god you dont work in my research and development team or this time next year we would be making phone calls with 2 cups and a length of string CCP nerfbat style.
Well Said!! Missiles have been effectively "de-nutted" by this patch, us Missile Spammers weren't the DPS kings to begin with, missiles were fine for mission running.. but sufferec in PvP situations.
The amount of nerfing (god how I hate that word) from this patch has made both missiles and Caldari as a whole far less effective (Neither were Ubar for PvP ecept for EWAR).
And NO I don't fail.. I have 10mil in missiles, almost as much in gunnery.. so when I compare the two missiles run a poor second.
We're not asking for the WTFBBQPWNZORSAUCE weapon here, just some kind of reasonable compromise please. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:29:00 -
[353]
So because IRL stuff only becomes better, it also should be in games?
Okay, missiles explosion velocity is now 10 times larger than before. All trackings, velocities and distances are now 100 times larger than before, and we remove two zeros from every distance and velocity in interface, so the end result is that it only shows everything is same and explosion velocity is lower, but actually everything is higher... |
Slinkus Gallentus
Gallente Infinite Order
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:32:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Josef Odinssen
the key to this is DEVELOPING. they arent NERFING MISSILES in order to fit NEXT GENERATION RAIL GUNS.
get the point?
Actually I think it is you that doesn't understand this is a game my friend. IRL there is an arms race. In Eve there is an arms balance.
If we had continuous development in this game as in real life then new stuff would have to come out with every patch. ie. ships would have to have better armor/shields/propulsion/ewar defence to compensate for the increased damage from weapons.
This holds for mods too, with a new armor hardener with better hardening, or new shield resist with better resistance. Soon, these would both be reaching 99.9% hardening/resistance, and then 99.99%, and the 99.9999% etc etc.
It makes far more sense to nerf than to increase. |
Josef Odinssen
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:03:00 -
[355]
No i understand clearly its a game, but what i also understand is that if you cant use missiles as effectively as a class of offensive modules as you can gunnery then there is something horribly broken with missiles.
I am arguing that instead of nerfing missiles already poor DPS output they should have buffed countermeasures so you could fit chaff launchers/flares and brought it into line with other GAMES that use missiles.
Standard Game Long range Combat: missiles Standard Game Short Range Combat: gunnery Standard Countermeasures: Chaff & ECM (radar guided) Flares (heat seeking).
If CCP had introduced missiles the way every combat GAME ive ever played had and had a balanced countermeasure then we wouldnt be in this mess today.
Its lazy programming. instead of creating proper missile/countermeasure classes then they do a bit of DB value tweaks and hope it goes away. all im pointing out in other GAMES they dont just decide missiles are overpowered and make the class useless in PVP, they make sure PVP players have adequate countermeasures with which to fight missiles.
Its not rocket science (well it is but meh) - i played Elite in 1983 and even on a 16K computer they managed to balance missile/gunnery combat and i can't remember a single flight related combat simulator that has this problem in the past 20 years because everyone followed the fairly simple RL rules of missile combat/countermeasure.
I am merely suggesting (Which clearly isnt allowed in Eve) that missile combat dynamics in eve are flawed by design vs other combat flight simulators, and instead of just taking a cheap patch option of tweaking values they should have looked at WHY missiles are not a VIABLE combat tool in PVP in THIS GAME.
But instead of a reasoned "why are missiles broken" argument we are bound to descend into the usual hawt gunners vs missile spammers hate war rather than looking at why missiles don't complement gunnery in a way like oh i dont know every other combat flight simulator since the dawn of time.
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:04:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Yes, CCP went much too far. If the missile says it will do 500dmg (unresisted), then it should do 500dmg (unresisted) regardless of how fast the missile or target are moving relative to each other.
The base damage is v a stationary target.
Quote: What CCP need to clarify is how much damage is done by the explosion of the warhead and how much damage is done by the impact of the warhead. These are two entirely different things.
No damage is done by impact, missiles do not actually impact the target in Eve. All missiles are AOE damage only.
Quote: As it stands the explosion damage is being nerfed by the relative velocity and this does not happen IRL. Sure, this is a space game but it should reflect reality in some places and explosions are one thing that I feel should be reflected accurately.
Go back to your basic physics class. Any explosion travels outward from the source at a set speed. Travelling faster than that speed will out-run it. This is the principle of speed tanking. RL: A jet travelling faster than the speed of sound (read: interceptor) can outrun the blast of a nuclear bomb since the shockwave travels at the speed of sound.
The only thing CCP have not taken into consideration is the dissipation of the damage potential over distance. Therefore in Eve, the outer radius of the blast does as much damage as the core so, if your ship is already halfway out of the max blast radius, you only receive 50% of the damage. I'm sure that, with a bit of calculus and providing the physics engine doesn't get overloaded, CCP can program that in as well so it will effectively nerf missiles far more than has been done currently. A BS travelling at 130m/s will easily outrun the major portion of the blast and the dissipated splash damage it does receive will mean a cruise would only do as much total damage to the BS as rockets currently do.
You also need to take into consideration that shields are not a reality. They are essentially an ECM device that causes the missile to explode at a set distance away from the ships hull. This is another area where RL and Eve cannot be compared.
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Katy Karkinoff
Minmatar Psycho Chicks
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:15:00 -
[357]
Ha. AHAHAAHAA.
The missile users are still crying? You idiots DO realize EVERYONE is in the same boat right? Lasers are the only ones not overly effected. Large weapons (cruise, torps, large turrets) all now do next to nothing to smaller classes.
If you haven't read the threads explaining how to ADAPT to the change then it's your own damn fault. Seriously. You cried about nano's and told them to adapt. I did it and now you get your just desserts.
There have been a few threads explaining on how to adapt tactics to still be king of pve. And i would also like to point out for you that a raven does about 85% of a blaster throns theoretical DPS at 300% of the range (we've all seen the blaster threads) so there is no crying that missiles sucked in pvp. RE: FinalFlash's SOLO raven de pwn.
Thank, and have a wonderful day |
supr3m3justic3
Caldari Hakata Group Blade.
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Posted - 2008.11.20 17:21:00 -
[358]
ME! |
Thudin
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Posted - 2008.11.20 18:49:00 -
[359]
This thread is still going?
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.20 19:10:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus
Originally by: Furb Killer Sure when my guns do the damage they say they do, then your missiles can do the damage they say they do.
I can assure you dreadnaughts will become much more popular with that change...
I agree. It should be the same for hybrids and projectiles also. I'm Gallente. Missiles are hardly my thing either but my point still stands.
I also agree, get rid of the wrecking, well aimed and more of that stuff :D So this person can see the turrets doing the damage they list?
lol
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