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Wyn Pharoh
Gallente Crystalline INC The Black Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 01:26:00 -
[481]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee Edited by: KhamEee Kazee on 23/11/2008 20:54:22
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee (My views, mainly from a PvE perspective)....
SP : 34.8 million (11.2M Spaceship Command, 9M Gunnery, 5.1M missiles etc.)... SP ain't the problem, nor is doing missions fast. The problem is that the nerf is totally out outta whack. Caldari had the upperhand in PvE, and was the last pick for PvP except for EW ofc... ---
Since I followed an older players advice and trained Drones first, I'm going to say that in a lot of ways it IS a SP problem. You are comparing your Gunnery to the effectiveness of your Missile output, and have nearly twice the amout of SP's in Gunnery? Any idea why the missiles SHOULD under perform here? Gunnery is complicated, prepatch, missiles were not. They could hit anything, 100% effective and apparently where so effective, many missile boat pilots are unaware that they have secondary weapon systems. Yes, using those drones in the drone bay may require some training and learning how to use them may take some time, and a refresh course on Kill Mission Survival Guides, but if not, I know people that will buy your ships.
In many missions, I can pop a few frigs at range with rails, but rarely all of them without drone support. T2 light drones are not that much of an investment in time, and perform better now for their intended role than ever before. Their mobility and now their tracking/dps are edging out my Mediums, and that's for cruisers as well as frigs now.
...except for EW ofc... Keep em coming, always a welcome addition to the gang, and probably not likely to get the nerfbat (again) anytime soon, as your right, best reason to train Caldari. In PvP terms, the combination of speed and missiles 100% effectiveness was absurd. The minimal training required was absurd (in relative terms to non-speedtank/non missile dps fits). The isk invested, well sure, lots of it, but no other fit benefited in any way in proportion to the same amount of isk invested. Now missiles perform with actual drawbacks, like other weapon systems have. People will playtest and Eve will evolve again. Smash the State...and Have A Nice Day!!! |
KhamEee Kazee
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Posted - 2008.11.24 01:56:00 -
[482]
Edited by: KhamEee Kazee on 24/11/2008 02:01:22
Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 23/11/2008 23:54:25
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee You had the missile nerf + the Golems explo velocity bonus nerfed in half (10 -> 5% pr. level) and you claim to kill BS's faster now than before?... Makes no sense
There's been multiple posts saying that velocity vs explo vel now is a minor factor compared to sig comparison in the missile damage formula, which you did'nt even know about that and yet you argument about the missile changes and post as if your "opinions" were hard facts? Makes no sense.
/e: 40% damage drop? would that be because of the new explo. vel? oh please EFTwarrioring with the old missile formula much? So much for credibility.
This was me in my Navy Mega vs. my CEO playing around in a torpfitted Scorp. Sitting still getting hit for 219 vs. moving getting hit for 144, which is why in my first post I stated it was primarily PvE related, but not solely. Roughly a 40%'ish dmg difference from sitting still -> moving. This was from some random tests we did of various types of missiles vs. different targets at different speeds to see how much speed/sig radius had to say right after QR was implemented. FYI : Only thing I use EFT for is to see if setups fit PG/CPU wise and to see if my PvE boats are cap stable. |
Tobin Shalim
Vulcan Foundry OPUS Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 04:50:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Mallikan Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
quoting for emphasis.
i have noticed the same thing myself, in tests i've done. -----
Originally by: Haakkon I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.11.24 04:52:00 -
[484]
Quote: This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
You're doing it wrong? Because that's the only reason which would explain why my torp raven kick's the crap out of a drake's DPS anyday ---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 07:07:00 -
[485]
Originally by: KhamEee Kazee
This was me in my Navy Mega vs. my CEO playing around in a torpfitted Scorp. Sitting still getting hit for 219 vs. moving getting hit for 144, which is why in my first post I stated it was primarily PvE related, but not solely. Roughly a 40%'ish dmg difference from sitting still -> moving. This was from some random tests we did of various types of missiles vs. different targets at different speeds to see how much speed/sig radius had to say right after QR was implemented. Tested heavy missiles vs. cruiser sized ships too... Nighthawk vs. Vagabond, and sitting still it gets pounded... 1100+ m/s @ T2 10mn AB (Yeah AB -.-) and it reduces the dmg A LOT. You say speed is a minor factor in the dmg formula... Our tests say otherwise though. Sig radius might be a bigger factor, but speed alone will reduce incoming missile dmg by enormous amounts alone. FYI : Only thing I use EFT for is to see if setups fit PG/CPU wise and to see if my PvE boats are cap stable.
With the afterburner on, outside of about 17km the torp raven has more dps than a blasterthron. Without the afterburner on it does more dps at about 12.6km. Falloff range is a huge *****.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:56:00 -
[486]
i think ccp went too far... my minnie ships cant tank any missle ship now, let alone those kinetic bonuses
no, no sarcasm; too little powergrid, cap or slots to fit an active tank on there, let alone an afterburner next to the necessary MWD. all we have now is the muninn, using range as a "tank" - it requires a perfect claymore before one can start profiting from matari-typical signatures....
there's one niche though: ganking mission runners in their plexes - the only pvp place that doesnt have MWD. - putting the gist back into logistics |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:02:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Mallikan Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
quoting for emphasis.
i have noticed the same thing myself, in tests i've done.
You're doing it wrong.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:59:00 -
[488]
it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:06:00 -
[489]
Originally by: mattbucci it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
Drop the web drones, use the damage drones, don't shoot torps and cruises at frigs and cruisers. Problem solved.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:08:00 -
[490]
ccp u make me wanna cry. I am not the only one i know consitering quiting now. Quite a few of us are all missle based i know a 3 year old player who is quiting due to this patch. Why i ask do you have to so drasticaly alter the game? why? what did we do? speed tanking is an exception to the rules of the game pretty much and an extreme case and i can see the reason. but why for the love of god why do you nerf our missles? it's not like my torps had the greatest range pre-patch(20km) and the damage is not instant it takes ages for it to hit the target. Torps and PVE was our only reason for still using missles! Why oh why would u take that away. haven't u ever heard the phase "if it an't broke don't fix it"?
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Pretzel Spark
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:11:00 -
[491]
TBH.
A bit annoying, but I'll live. Torps/cruises still do respectable amounts of damage against bs's (though a painter is a must now i guess), heavies are still excellent except against frigates, which besides are like thin pinatas to light drones.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:11:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: mattbucci it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
Drop the web drones, use the damage drones, don't shoot torps and cruises at frigs and cruisers. Problem solved.
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:12:00 -
[493]
Originally by: mattbucci
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: mattbucci it's total bull....i seriously am contemplating quiting eve it's really ****ed me off...all my skills were in missles and i thought they kinda sucked as it was for pvp because they don't do insta damage. most of the time in large ops the target gets blown up before my missles hit...but i felt it was too late to cross over and missles were still great for pve and torp raven wasn't bad at all for 1v1 pvp.....that all changed...now i'm just stuck with a bunch of crappy missle skills and lvl 1 gun skills. my missles won't hit for any damge i'm using 2 webber drones and a paint and i'm getting like half the damage i used to get. i think they stepped way outa line in this recent patch and i hope they correct it a bit...if not i may be shopping for a new mmo
Drop the web drones, use the damage drones, don't shoot torps and cruises at frigs and cruisers. Problem solved.
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
btw that's with the paint on
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Uncle Smokey
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:16:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I haven't had much difficulty.
.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. \o/ EVERYBODY SAY HELL YEAH! \o/ |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:24:00 -
[495]
Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:26:00 -
[496]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty liker players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
...pve was pretty much the only reason i didn't cross-train...which is exactly my point...it's quite annoying to rat now
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:26:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:37:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
FINISH HIM! ---
Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:37:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Odessima
Originally by: soulkiller3 Am still not seeing a valid reason missiles are not balanced now, just people crying that they one type of missile cant kill everything. That is not how eve works and you can cry and cry on the forums as much as you like, and CCP will not take notice as no one is brining up a reason why its not balanced, you have other options for killing frigs, drones, heveys and hell even but 2 220`s or 2 blasters on your spare 2 high slots on a raven, or even put on a smart bomb.
Actually my Raven carries more than one type of torpedo at all times, and the one type of missile I was using before is a lot less effective against targets moving at 0 speed that are the same class of ship, yes I can take out a midslot item to fit a target painter ( btw you do realise that the optimal range on a target painter is outside the range of my torpedoes), and sacrifice some more shield, so fit a web as well and take some more tank out, which has basically halved the tank on my short range battleship.
And yet my Gallente pilot still fits the same midslots ( web, scram and booster ) which I cant fit on my Caldari ship if I want to keep the same tank as my mega fit on gallente pilot, the same lowslots and gets the same damage...........I mean it really is way too much to ask for them to be able to compete equally after all they are both 2nd tier battle ships. Caldari Character has more skill points invested in That particular ship than my gallente has on his mega
People keep on mentioning drones as well for caldari ships, sure they can fit 5 drones, try fitting 5 heavy drones in a raven.
IF these balance changes had affected my Gallente Character as much as my Caldari Character and I thought they were equalising all race ships I wouldnt be on this forum posting.
Why should I have to retrain my Caldari Character when I will not have to for any of my other Race character, Minnie, Amarr, and Gallente?
Firt thing torps are usefull agenst ships bigger then BS, not so good agenst BS.
2ed Gallente bs are armor tanks Caldari bs are shield tanks, so yea they diffrant.
3ed i sead use drones on frigs, heavy drones are useless agenst frigs, use med drones which fit, you can have 2 spare ones as well!
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:41:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
first of all HOW DARE U. second yes, yes i do i use missles all day and night. have since day one. I'd think i'd know what i'm talking about
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mattbucci
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:46:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Karille Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55 Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
sure if you are running missions vs guristas that sit there slowly orbiting in ravens at like 200m/s at most you are fine, however if you live in an angel controled 0.0 yhen you know just how annoying it has become to make isk. Now i'm not gonna sit here and say before the patch you could hit a AF or HAC that was speed tanking with a torp, but my torps never had a problem taking care of these battleships going around 700m/s at most. If you want to sit there and argue about how it's just a little nerf and didn't affect missles that much there is no point in having this discussion because u are obviously very very ignorant
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:26:00 -
[502]
This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:36:00 -
[503]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The majority of carebears have never seen a nanoship ingame.
People like yourself were the ones whining for the nanonerf
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iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:49:00 -
[504]
People who flew nano ships were whining for them to be nerfed?
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 12:50:00 -
[505]
Originally by: iloni atoriandra People who flew nano ships were whining for them to be nerfed?
Carebear logic: it's always someone else's fault.
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Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:00:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The majority of carebears have never seen a nanoship ingame.
People like yourself were the ones whining for the nanonerf
Well the star whiner in this thread, Khamal Jolstien, was indeed cheering for the nano nerf. I can find the posts if you really like. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the same holds true for most the unhappy people posting over and over but can't really be bothered to check.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:08:00 -
[507]
Originally by: mattbucci ...haven't u ever heard the phase "if it an't broke don't fix it"?
It was broken! They fixed it! Stop crying! Missiles are just as viable as they always were, as long as you know how to fit your ship and know how to use missiles...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:13:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Kerfira on 24/11/2008 13:14:04
Originally by: iloni atoriandra This thread is so awesome :D
Considering how the the majority of carebears were all whining for the nano nerf I have no sympathy for any of your self inflicted nerfing.
The people calling for nano's to be adjusted were most likely NOT 'carebears' since they didn't have any reason to do so.
The people calling for a nano adjustment were other PvP'ers who saw nanofits as a threat to the variety of 0.0. If nano's hadn't been nerfed, soon there'd have been nothing in 0.0 BUT nanofits. This would have been bad for the game, which was realised by both the more sensible players as well as CCP.
Of.c. the people who'd been abusing the broken nano game mechanics are still crying, but that's really of no concern.
Nano nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game! Missile nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:24:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Kerfira Nano nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game! Missile nerf was needed, and in the interest of the game!
Sif! We don't need reasoned and balanced thinking on these boards!
Lern2whineflame and don't come back until you know how!
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
iloni atoriandra
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 13:33:00 -
[510]
Actually most people whining about nanos were people who didnt know how/couldnt be bothered to fit their ships and use tactics to fight them properly, and people who were ganked in their ratting raven by some nano HACs and whined that their ratting BS wasnt able to kill the evil nanos easily by pressing F1-F6/7.
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