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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:40:00 -
[541]
Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:40:29
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:31:22 Maybe you should train some skills.
Close-range missiles are now a far superior weapon system.
The missile whining is a classic case of people not properly applying the numbers to realistic, sensible game situations.
And long range missiles are a clearly inferior one.
Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Heck at 250 km ranges a Rokh should outdps a cruiseraven against more or less any target that is not a static BS or larger ship.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:50:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:40:29
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:31:22 Maybe you should train some skills.
Close-range missiles are now a far superior weapon system.
The missile whining is a classic case of people not properly applying the numbers to realistic, sensible game situations.
And long range missiles are a clearly inferior one.
Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Heck at 250 km ranges a Rokh should outdps a cruiseraven against more or less any target that is not a static BS or larger ship.
The Rokh has the dps of a wet noodle and tracks horribly.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:52:00 -
[543]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote: Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations?
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:59:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote: Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations?
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
I think the vagabond would do worse WITH mods since people throw sig radius increasing shield extenders on it.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:18:00 -
[545]
And 500% self-painters.
Well, it gets about a 50% damage reduction from HMs at ~3 km/s. Which is a million miles away from the previous 1% damage (although yes it had to slow down to actually hit an orbiting target under the old mechanics).
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente Black Legion Command Black Legion.
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:39:00 -
[546]
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 25/11/2008 15:40:30
Originally by: BhallSpawn flight time low dmg need a painter on a long range weapon?
ie. stupid patch.
Optimal Range. Tracking.
Adapt.
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soulkiller3
Minmatar Explosive Production Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.25 22:14:00 -
[547]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 25/11/2008 14:19:56
Originally by: soulkiller3
Originally by: Kematian My 1/2 cent on this, as I was Caldari pre-nerf and have switched to a new indy-pathed Amarr now, is that for any reason if my standard missiles were suddenly doing better DPS than heavies, something was broken. Bad.
Was you shooting frigs by any chance, if so then standerd will hit better.
Maybe you should field test properly.
For cruisersized targets use Light missiles , For Battleship sized targets use Heavy missiles For Capital ship targets use cruise missiles.
If you want to hit frigates use drones.
Talking moving targets ofc.
I have field tested, and cruise missiles work fine on moving BS, and i have pointed out twice already to use drones on frigs
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 11:31:00 -
[548]
Edited by: Opertone on 26/11/2008 11:31:21 no no no, missile explosion velocities are too slow, everything else in the missile formula is fine
perhaps we could move more towards signature radius reliance rather than velocity component itself. So that the size of the target has more impact than the speed comparison on the resulting DPS.
i'd be happy with +25% adjustment to all missiles in game, so that non proficient ships can start using them and caldari ships do not have to fit tackle and can actually spam missiles from 120 km away. |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 12:22:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Opertone
i'd be happy with +25% adjustment to all missiles in game, so that non proficient ships can start using them and caldari ships do not have to fit tackle and can actually spam missiles from 120 km away.
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ChanibintLiet
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:10:00 -
[550]
I agree, missiles just suck right now and need to be fixed or just changed back.
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Marius Nervosu
Caldari Black Straw
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:22:00 -
[551]
Edited by: Marius Nervosu on 26/11/2008 14:22:12 Missiles suck bad now...
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:29:00 -
[552]
What makes them so bad?
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knobber Jobbler
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Posted - 2008.11.26 14:46:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Marius Nervosu Edited by: Marius Nervosu on 26/11/2008 14:22:12 Missiles suck bad now...
I don't belive they do. They've changed. Its forced people to think about there missile/ship loadout allot more. T2 missiles are now more important and actually have a use now, drones for missile ships are now more important. It just means missile *****s (me included) have to think about builds a little better now and the type of missiles and missile lauchers for a given situation.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:05:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote: Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations?
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
I think the vagabond would do worse WITH mods since people throw sig radius increasing shield extenders on it.
I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:12:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Haradgrim
I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
You need better drone skills. My Ishkur was an even match for a vagabond a few days ago. I'm not saying that the two pilots were of the same skill, but I stripped off his entire shield with my Hobgoblin II drones and yes, he had an mwd, no he wasn't webbed.
Coincidentally a turret battleship pilot would have met the same fate in your situation, so i don't see the imbalance.
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:34:00 -
[556]
Originally by: Karille You need better drone skills. My Ishkur was an even match for a vagabond a few days ago. I'm not saying that the two pilots were of the same skill, but I stripped off his entire shield with my Hobgoblin II drones and yes, he had an mwd, no he wasn't webbed.
…then again, the bolded part makes a huge difference now: using an MWD is currently among the kindest thing you can do to your enemy — no amount of TPs he fits and precision skills he trains can come close to that kind of 500% self-paintage.
It's a tricky choice: shut off his MWD and make him harder to hit, or let him keep it on and make it easier for him to run away.
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:41:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Karille You need better drone skills. My Ishkur was an even match for a vagabond a few days ago. I'm not saying that the two pilots were of the same skill, but I stripped off his entire shield with my Hobgoblin II drones and yes, he had an mwd, no he wasn't webbed.
ąthen again, the bolded part makes a huge difference now: using an MWD is currently among the kindest thing you can do to your enemy ł no amount of TPs he fits and precision skills he trains can come close to that kind of 500% self-paintage.
It's a tricky choice: shut off his MWD and make him harder to hit, or let him keep it on and make it easier for him to run away.
I think for that fight it could have been better to let him mwd and just web him instead. It wouldn't cut his speed as much, but he'd still have a huge sig radius. Since part of the missile formula includes the ratio of sig to speed it might be more productive.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:42:00 -
[558]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/11/2008 15:42:35
Originally by: Haradgrim I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
Your torps are still more effective against a Vaga than they were before QR. Also, why on Earth were you using EM torps against a Vaga?
And yeah, webbing him would have been far more effective than MWD-scrambling.
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Creh Ester
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:55:00 -
[559]
Edited by: Creh Ester on 26/11/2008 21:02:41 I think people have lost focus of the thread subject. When I logged on last week I found many of my corp mates deep into rage and bitterness about the missile nerf. I naturally assumed the forum would be full of nerd rage and outcry. But going there to check out wasup, I found only two timid threads. And the only nerd rage there, were the usual losers who, huffing and puffing themselves into their image of a cool PvP'er, vehemently scolded anyone complaining about the state of missiles (they're 'carebears' right?).
Well, I went out and flew missions with several different characters, in both turret ships (Minmatar arty) and missile boats. What I found out was that the game hasn't changed in any fundamental manner. That is: It's still possible to fly missions in missile boats. It's still possible to fly missions in turret ships. The manual workload is still higher in the turret ship in Lv4s. In Lv1, maybe not. And, yes, yes, you can/should use drones, target painters, whatever, that really isn't relevant for the issue. Neither are skills. I consider those arguments just part of the huffing and puffing :roll:.
So, no problem? I don't know. What do you consider a problem? What I did find out was this: L1 missions were faster in a Minmatar gun frig than in a Caldari missile frig, with both a missile char (<9mil miss. <4mil gun) and a turret char (<4mil miss. <9mil gun). And as a general suggestion I think that experiment should be easy for anyone to do, so instead of theorizing here about fitting this mod or other, just go out and do it.
And is that a problem? Well, not really. If it wasn't a problem that it used to be easier and faster with missiles, I can't see why this other state is a problem now either. (And I assume that it, for a new low skill char, is safer as well, with the turret ship. Particularly considering the lacklustre speed, grids and slots of Caldari ships).
Lv4 missions, I'm not sure. Oh, I'm sure that they used to be faster, easier and safer for a missile boat than they are now. And I experimented with turret ships in missions already before this missile nerf, and found them often to be useful. (And incidentally, huffers and puffers, sniping as many frigs as you manage at long range is something you typically do, and try to do, when you take a turret BS to a L4.) But I'm not sure L4s are easier, safer and faster in turret ships than missile boats. Rather I'm sure they are not always so. Some missions still favor missiles.
No the problem areas are others: People have (again) been robbed on their skilling choices. And this time they've been robbed of a year or more. Oh sure, they can still fly missions with their missile skills, but in an EVE where things are relative, there really aren't any reasons to train missiles anymore. So people are still robbed. But it's not the first time that happens, and it's always going to happen as long as ccp balances this game, so is it really a problem?
The other problem is Caldari race, at all. In PvP, Caldari always needed a little fleet of five or so specialists to accomplish what two buddies could do together for other races. When it comes to getting the slots and grids together for PvP, Caldari has for long been a gimped mess. To go with that they are sluggish and have smallish drone bays. The one redeeming factor was always PvE. Now what? Oh, you can still PvE in Caldari missile ships. But the question now is WHY? Personally I'm not a great fan of extensive balancing. Let things be different I say. I particularly dislike the current trend where everything has to be as exactly corresponding items as possible. What's really the point of different races, different weapon technologies, then? If it's all the same. But you forum dwellers seem to like balancing a lot. So, - What's balanced about Caldari now? That is maybe a problem. Not for me though. I'm Gallente and cross trained.
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:59:00 -
[560]
Originally by: Creh Ester
But you forum dwellers seem to like balancing a lot. So, - What's balanced about Caldari now? That is maybe a problem. Not for me though.
The damage is balanced and the mechanics are still different. Where's the problem. Nobody got robbed of any SP, I'm still training missiles, and they're still viable.
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Opertone
Caldari SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:22:00 -
[561]
turret users care more about missile staying as they are than the missiles user want them to improve :P
gallente are the ones completely satisfied with the fate of caldari |
Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:29:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Opertone turret users care more about missile staying as they are than the missiles user want them to improve :P
gallente are the ones completely satisfied with the fate of caldari
I've seen many of your brethren clueless as to why you're having such trouble. Perhaps you should ask them for advice.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:43:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/11/2008 15:42:35
Originally by: Haradgrim I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted
Your torps are still more effective against a Vaga than they were before QR. Also, why on Earth were you using EM torps against a Vaga?
And yeah, webbing him would have been far more effective than MWD-scrambling.
No, a scrammed and webbed and painted vaga pre-QR got melted by torps and t2 med drones, I'm using EM because it was loaded, its not that bad anyhow... and at MWD-webbed speed he can easily get away from me.
Re; my drones skills: they're near perfect.....
The thing is, its not like I haven't had this fight pre-QR, you can sit there all day and tell me its the same but I KNOW its not.... my dps is shameful now. Also, pulse lasers still melt vagas..... --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.27 00:50:00 -
[564]
I have a hard time following the debate, mostly because there are so many inputs concerning numerous topics within.
Oh, and after reading 19 pages, yes I've actaully read all of them, discovering about 1/4 of them were spam in one way or another.
I've been away from EVE for awhile, so I haven't experienced the effects first hand. My question is PvE-related:
Am I still able to kill NPC-BS's with cruisemissiles?
Are cruisemissiles still deadly towards NPC-BC's?
Faction cruisemissiles used to be the best missiles at killing NPC-BS and BC's, range and speed in one, are they still so?
I don't really care about frigates and cruisers, my drones usually eat them for breakfast (they continue to do so, right?).
But I've been able to, almost, one shoot frigates MWD'ing towards me, which seems okay considering I hit the right on the nose which means the frigate has to fly through the explosion, will I still be able to do that?
Oh, and did my Raven just become even slower?
Yes I know, Caldari, shieldtanking, and missiles doesn't really mix with PvP, but that's the way I've chosen, is 1,5 years of training in shields and missiles wasted?
Guess I get to try it myself when I get back from maternity leave.
rgds
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Patent Pending
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:05:00 -
[565]
Edited by: Patent Pending on 27/11/2008 01:10:44 --Am I still able to kill NPC-BS's with cruisemissiles?
Yes, you need a lot more though.
Think on this: 4 cruise missile T2 fury fired at 20m/s rat BS do 1450 dmg.
Same 4 cruises fired at same rat BS who still has almost full shields.. except rat BS accelerated to 120m/s .. damage is 850.
this is with 1 target painter and 1 webber drone set on it too.
40 something % reduction .. and almost all battleships in the game WILL fly over 100ms pretty much.
--Are cruisemissiles still deadly towards NPC-BC's?
Same as above.
--Faction cruisemissiles used to be the best missiles at killing NPC-BS and BC's, range and speed in one, are they still so?
Yes.
However, due to the above mentioned speed damage mitigation, it is more effective to use heavy T2 fury missiles vs BS and BC. Fire refire rate, do apply full damage every time, does not require painter or webber.
Drake > Raven . lulz.
---I don't really care about frigates and cruisers, my drones usually eat them for breakfast (they continue to do so, right?).
No. Medium drones got a tracking nerf vs frigates. Oh, they still do kill them but it takes some time.
---But I've been able to, almost, one shoot frigates MWD'ing towards me, which seems okay considering I hit the right on the nose which means the frigate has to fly through the explosion, will I still be able to do that?
Not like before but similar. You can now hit MWD frigates with missiles as mwd speeds were slowed down (blessed nano-nerf) and missiles catch up with them. Damage however, goes down almost exponentially based on the target's speed.
Thing is.. people about to get hit by a missile just turn off the MWD and drift at high speed and receive practically zero damage. *shrug*
---Oh, and did my Raven just become even slower?
Yes, all ships had a mass and speed change. slower now.
---Yes I know, Caldari, shieldtanking, and missiles doesn't really mix with PvP, but that's the way I've chosen, is 1,5 years of training in shields and missiles wasted?
Pretty much yes. Now to 'properly' use missiles you need to have the target webbed (brilliant BS from CCP.. the 40/80/150km weapon systems only do damage under 10km LOL), target painted and bearing gifts of shrubbery.
Hence, forget shield tanking or good missile fire performance via midslot modules. you cant have both. Not even on an ecm-less scorpion.
----Guess I get to try it myself when I get back from maternity leave.
grats :)
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:10:00 -
[566]
Originally by: Patent Pending
grats :)
Thanks
rgds
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:20:00 -
[567]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 27/11/2008 01:20:59
Originally by: SirMoric
Just read the patch notes. Everything except the exact new missile formula is in there. You're better off looking how they actually changed thing instead of relying on the dumbed down advice you get here. When you understand the changes, you can see how to change your fit to achieve the best results with the new rules.
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SPQRMocton
Minmatar Calmarr Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.27 02:47:00 -
[568]
2 words TARGET PAINTER Fly reckless and take chances..............it's more fun |
Oh Crikey
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Posted - 2008.11.27 04:26:00 -
[569]
Originally by: SPQRMocton 2 words TARGET PAINTER
15 words: Doesn't solve the problem of missiles, as it's too easy to speed tank them now.
12 more words: Webbers are too low range, and the webbing drone is too slow.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.27 04:28:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Patent Pending Edited by: Patent Pending on 27/11/2008 01:10:44 --Am I still able to kill NPC-BS's with cruisemissiles?
Yes, you need a lot more though.
Think on this: 4 cruise missile T2 fury fired at 20m/s rat BS do 1450 dmg.
Same 4 cruises fired at same rat BS who still has almost full shields.. except rat BS accelerated to 120m/s .. damage is 850.
this is with 1 target painter and 1 webber drone set on it too.
40 something % reduction .. and almost all battleships in the game WILL fly over 100ms pretty much.
--Are cruisemissiles still deadly towards NPC-BC's?
Same as above.
--Faction cruisemissiles used to be the best missiles at killing NPC-BS and BC's, range and speed in one, are they still so?
Yes.
However, due to the above mentioned speed damage mitigation, it is more effective to use heavy T2 fury missiles vs BS and BC. Fire refire rate, do apply full damage every time, does not require painter or webber.
Drake > Raven . lulz.
---I don't really care about frigates and cruisers, my drones usually eat them for breakfast (they continue to do so, right?).
No. Medium drones got a tracking nerf vs frigates. Oh, they still do kill them but it takes some time.
---But I've been able to, almost, one shoot frigates MWD'ing towards me, which seems okay considering I hit the right on the nose which means the frigate has to fly through the explosion, will I still be able to do that?
Not like before but similar. You can now hit MWD frigates with missiles as mwd speeds were slowed down (blessed nano-nerf) and missiles catch up with them. Damage however, goes down almost exponentially based on the target's speed.
Thing is.. people about to get hit by a missile just turn off the MWD and drift at high speed and receive practically zero damage. *shrug*
---Oh, and did my Raven just become even slower?
Yes, all ships had a mass and speed change. slower now.
---Yes I know, Caldari, shieldtanking, and missiles doesn't really mix with PvP, but that's the way I've chosen, is 1,5 years of training in shields and missiles wasted?
Pretty much yes. Now to 'properly' use missiles you need to have the target webbed (brilliant BS from CCP.. the 40/80/150km weapon systems only do damage under 10km LOL), target painted and bearing gifts of shrubbery.
Hence, forget shield tanking or good missile fire performance via midslot modules. you cant have both. Not even on an ecm-less scorpion.
----Guess I get to try it myself when I get back from maternity leave.
grats :)
sums it up quite nicely ;-)
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