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Lythane
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Posted - 2008.11.13 23:15:00 -
[1]
Note: I am aware that suggestions similar to his have been previously made before. However, mine is significantly different.
In the current system of skill training, skill training is an unchangeable(except by learning skills and implants) time to get a new skill, decided by attributes. I have a couple ideas for augmenting this system.
One idea is that time spent doing something relating to a skill makes it train faster. Each skill would be given a an associated action, and doing that action would shorten the training relative to the time spent doing the action. For example, a minute mining would count as 10 against the training time(if it counted it as one, they're would be no difference). This would be calculated once an hour, or upon log out, not at the end of the action. That way pauses would not make it useless.
Another suggestion would be to add some missions that would grant a new level in a skill, bypassing the training the time, or shortening it significantly. These missions would be strictly related to the skill in question. No combat in mining skill missions, and vice-versa.
Well, that's my idea.
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.14 00:04:00 -
[2]
Support. A lot of roleplaying games give you some sort of experience points for putting your skills to use. I suppose the tradeoff is that we make ISK instead, but it would be nice to see your playchoices reflected in your skill development.
currently you improve your skills by improving learning and fitting implants, once you've done that that's it, it's just down to how long Player X has been in the game vs. Player Y, new players can never catch up to old players.
Apart from when they put that expansion in awhile back that gave all the new players 1m skill points and nothing to the people who had joined 5-6 weeks before and spent time training up to be the same level as brand new toons. I almost quit, 2 of my friends did.
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Syberbolt8
Gallente Gen Tec
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:54:00 -
[3]
Not letting people grind there skills and power level is one of the major assets in eve, I would see this as something that would damage the game's skill system, its meant to take time and not be effected by your actions. The only way you should be able to grind levels should IMO be grinding for isk, then buying a pilot on the pilot bazaar.
Aside form that I don't think this is one subject that ccp would ever consider, and I hope I am right. Join Gen Tec |
NightF0x
Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders
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Posted - 2008.11.14 04:15:00 -
[4]
I think that Syber is trying to say is that any skills trained that don't directly affect that ship or modules are useless when it comes to flying that ship or using those modules. That all means that if you specialize then you will focus all of your SP's toward a skill set that can(more than likely) be unmatched by senior pilots. ------------------------------------
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Kentarion
Horadrim Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:59:00 -
[5]
i would like that...
but i think it's not as easy to implement.
is a fight who sells all his mission stuff getting 'bonus skill' for trade?
nevertheless /voting for it.
i like action driven gamemechanics. |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.14 13:08:00 -
[6]
the classic example of why NOT to do this is that in the beta test, where doing the action leveled up the skill, pilots would simple get an amarr ship, set it to orbit a roid in high sec with a epic recharge, and leave it orbiting and firing lasers for 12-15 hours while they went to work/slept/go on with life.
then they come back and presto: lvl 4 small lasers, amarr frig IV, spaceship command IV, all cap skills to III.
yay! epic! oh...wait..... |
Lythane
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:07:00 -
[7]
I really don't see how powerleveling/grinding is a concern. This would supplement, not replace the current system.
It could be setup so that active input wold be required. SP credit for killing with a given weapon, or one SP per unit of related mineral.
Missions that affect skill is a great idea no one commented on.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:14:00 -
[8]
Been tried, didn't work.
Just put everyone with one gun of a certain type to take potshots at a freighter for hours on end while they're afk to max skillgain while they should be logged off otherwise.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:14:00 -
[9]
Abusable. Eve is a game of leisure, not grinding. Having to grind 4-5 hours every day to keep up with those that have no life (ea. students and nerds) is not what Eve is about.
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Wannabehero
Caldari Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:21:00 -
[10]
Is a good idea, but I don't think will ever work in practice, CCP is not interested in changing their skilling system.
Personally I like both the action driven and time driven player advancement systems for various reasons for one or the other, a hybrid of both seems like it could be the best. I hate level-based systems though, though EvE's isn't so bad, as they are skill levels, not player levels like in every other MMO ever.
I guess though that you could consider every skill-point like a level, in which case EvE has an unprecedented record-breaking number of levels compared to all other MMO's. |
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Lythane
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:34:00 -
[11]
Um I suggested a hybrid. A hybrid is the best idea.
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Wannabehero
Caldari Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lythane Um I suggested a hybrid. A hybrid is the best idea.
I never said you didn't --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Kyax
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lythane Um I suggested a hybrid. A hybrid is the best idea.
The best idea as stated above is to concentrate on skills that lead to one specific ship/goal. Then you will be good.
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.11.15 00:18:00 -
[14]
NO
You can cheat that type of system to easy, this is NOT that type of MMO, stop trying to make it that type of MMO
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Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:56:00 -
[15]
No.
One reason I play eve is that I know I don't have to grind to keep up with other people in skills. |
Lythane
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Posted - 2008.11.15 23:53:00 -
[16]
I never suggested grinding. I just think it's absurd that using a skill doesn't contribute toward that skill. I hate "that type of game" too.
Maybe we use a hybrid skill system, and put a no-grinding clause in the EULA.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.16 00:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lythane I never suggested grinding. I just think it's absurd that using a skill doesn't contribute toward that skill. I hate "that type of game" too.
Maybe we use a hybrid skill system, and put a no-grinding clause in the EULA.
That's still dumb, abusable and easily gotten around. It's perfectly fine the way it is now.
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Femaref
Armageddon Day
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Posted - 2008.11.16 02:01:00 -
[18]
no. sp in eve is not about putting time into it, but letting time pass. if you make it grindable, you'll have the same problems as in other mmog (aka people with too much time at their hands get better even though they aren't good at the game)
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Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.16 07:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lythane I never suggested grinding. I just think it's absurd that using a skill doesn't contribute toward that skill. I hate "that type of game" too.
Maybe we use a hybrid skill system, and put a no-grinding clause in the EULA.
the skill si programmed into you at the instinctive level when you learn it, according to the backstory. you dont gain heart usage skill XP every tiem your heart beats.
grinding will become inevitable if you allow usage to supplement and adjust standard training. - PvPers always say "GB2WoW". the message is that EVE is hard, and people just need to deal with it. wasn't it funny how when nano's started making it hard for *them*, that all went out the window? |
Cheopis
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.16 07:36:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Anig Browl Support. A lot of roleplaying games give you some sort of experience points for putting your skills to use. I suppose the tradeoff is that we make ISK instead, but it would be nice to see your playchoices reflected in your skill development.
currently you improve your skills by improving learning and fitting implants, once you've done that that's it, it's just down to how long Player X has been in the game vs. Player Y, new players can never catch up to old players.
Apart from when they put that expansion in awhile back that gave all the new players 1m skill points and nothing to the people who had joined 5-6 weeks before and spent time training up to be the same level as brand new toons. I almost quit, 2 of my friends did.
All skills are capped. Because of this, a new player can reach the same competency as an old player in a relatively short time - in a narrow band of skills.
The older player has a wider variety of skills, yes, but in ship combat, there are only a certain number of skills that are useful, depending on the ship and the fittings.
A highly specialized six-month old interceptor pilot is going to perform very nearly as well as a 2003 interceptor pilot, provided gear is reasonably similar.
Specialization is required to match up against higher skill characters. It always is, and specialization was required for the old guys too, when they were learning, because mediocre doesn't win in PVP.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.17 11:46:00 -
[21]
The current skill system is one of the things that appeals to me about EVE; I don't want to see grind or that pathetic 'you earned X SP' rubbish that is an excuse for well developed design in this game.
The basic principle of earned XP & levelling (which is what the above is, just with different names) is aimed at one thing and one thing only - giving you a false sense of progression over time so that you continue to pay money on your subscription whilst the developers try desperately to lay more train track in front of the train. The WoW style copied to so many MMOs is a classic 'lets slow people down and give them something to do whilst we develop the next set of content'.
EVE has worked out that actually, people don't wish to log in and grind to progress; they want to enjoy that progress and do something useful with it. They don't need to add content on a six month rotation simply to give the next batch of level 50s something new to do; they add content that can benefit everyone, because the game is predicated on a design where player ingenuity and cunning are what ultimately reap rewards.
I recognise that the OP tried to avoid going directly to the grind approach, but it still feels way too much of a slippery slope to me. Skills are long because they force the player to think, to recognise that they can either be a jack of all trades, or a specialist, in various areas. It's a flexible alternative to the class system in other games - you're not forced down a specific path from your starting choices, but you do have paths to choose.
It's also a misconception that purely by repetitively doing a task, you become better at it. Training is almost always a requirement in any advanced discipline. |
Adonai Darkwind
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:07:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Adonai Darkwind on 17/11/2008 12:12:14
Astria, that's not the fact at all. Role-playing games by principle have their characters progress through earning xp by playing the game and not by ETAS. It's not a WoW invention.
Though, you are right on the fact that in most mmos after realease and basic bug fixing, they go on a 'live' stage till the next expansion, which usually comes after a few years.
That's not the problem in eve though, quite the opposite actually. Here you got the advantage of having both or more accurately all three! You got the main time system, and then you can have multipliers based on activity or practising the skills. So it's fair for everyone. It's fair for the slacker that just logs in to change training skills and doesn't even bother to play the game till he's imba, and it's fair for the active player that is active and contributes to the game by playing and knows that by running 500k of boring, all the same missions is actually earning something.
I had started a topic with ideas close to the op's here
But then again, down-time hit me :P
Kind Regards, Adonai
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~ Tempus Imperator Rerum ~ |
Snow Banshee
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:20:00 -
[23]
NO !!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NO!!!!!!!
Eve its the only game i know that do not penalize people who have not much time to play, and its the only game where people from the first minute "play" instead to repeatedly do stupid actions just to raise skills. Ive played several games and always people tend to not play untill his char is not maxed.
Eve its the ( afaik) unique exception. Here people tend to play because action you do dont change the speed your skills raise. So if you dont like theing are, you can go play any other mmorpg and leave eve to people who understand the benefits of the current game mechanic.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:45:00 -
[24]
In fact, this is the same idea, repeated 1000 times already on the forums, just you think it's different. It's trying to make players who got a lot of time learn faster. It would make eve like WOW, where 12-year old maniacs who have got no meaning of life would spend many 12 hours a day playing eve and just counting that they would run into missions that rise skills.
I say -NO- to the idea.
The system with learning faster if you learn longer could be interresting. The month-long trainings would go faster if you wouldn't do more skills in the meantime. I support that. In fact, in reality you DO learn something far faster if you do only this one thing, and you do it faster and faster. If you skip from one subject to another, you lose learning speed.
I say -YES- for this part. |
Cyriel Longinus
XERCORE
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Cyriel Longinus on 17/11/2008 13:44:38
NO.
The Skill System in EvE not broken. There's no need to "improve", "adjust", "enhance" or wreck it with change.
No matter how much clever you want to wrap around it ... this an idea that is obviously motivated by a deep desire to **** over a good game system to grant one player instant gratification or power gamer experience ... so that he can play EvE for a month then **** off to another game ...
The benefits of the current system are HUGE ... we have players that love playing EvE and plays it like a community. If it took less than a few months to achieve all things in EvE ... the game would dry up like any game that allows you to Level to the end game.
In EvE we have no I-Win buttons or obvious end game.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Adonai Darkwind Astria, that's not the fact at all. Role-playing games by principle have their characters progress through earning xp by playing the game and not by ETAS. It's not a WoW invention.
To be fair, I was (and neglected to make clear) referring purely to MMO levelling and what it causes - post edited to reflect this. However, RPG (say, Baldur's Gate which is based on AD&D) levelling is to an extent guilty of the same issue - you can't go to area X until you're level Y - it's an arbitrary limit designed either to slow progression or cause a non-linear world to have a somewhat more linear storyline. Doesn't mean they aren't fun to play, but it does leave me wanting a better system. Pen & paper RPG by comparison has levels but they are truly all about progression because the DM can control what you face each week.
For comparison of where things are nudging towards, look at Fallout 3 - it has both levelling & auto-levelling of enemies like Oblivion, but you're not restricted by levels because your enemies lock to the level you enter the area at. It allows for a semblance of progression (ok it's still artificial, but what game universe isn't) without arbitrary limits.
I just find the notion of being rewarded purely for doing X repetitively in the game contrary to good gameplay. Even if the idea is that just by doing normal stuff, you will get better, so you don't need to grind, truth be told some will grind, and subsequently you would have to be incredibly careful to avoid receiving grinding advice and so on. In short, I think the issue isn't that the idea per se is a bad one, it's that it opens up the Pandora's Box of dealing with exactly why some people came to this MMO to escape the others. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:32:00 -
[27]
Please never implement this |
SgtAriedeBeuker
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:52:00 -
[28]
Edited by: SgtAriedeBeuker on 17/11/2008 16:52:25 Maybe achievement of standing 10 with a faction corporation should provide you a few missions to improve the lvl 4 to 5 or 3 to 4 for one particulair Skill type related to your faction race.
Idea about mining sounds nice but you need to at least bring in a million of ore of one type before even getting such an experience point. |
Rex Ladyhole
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:11:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Rex Ladyhole on 17/11/2008 17:12:19 Listen to this idea for a bump in skill training...
Say there is a chance, slim but its there like the destruction of your implants when you jump clone, that when you clear out an exploration site that you run into a Jovian escapee who was attacked and wounded during his escape and gives you a little bit of his knowledge before his death - the skill you are currently training completes. |
Adonai Darkwind
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.17 18:05:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Adonai Darkwind on 17/11/2008 18:05:32
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 17/11/2008 13:46:01 The current skill system is one of the things that appeals to me about EVE; I don't want to see grind or that pathetic 'you earned X SP' rubbish that is an excuse for well developed design in this game.
The basic principle of earned XP & levelling (edit: in MMOs) (which is what the above is, just with different names) is aimed at one thing and one thing only - giving you a false sense of progression over time so that you continue to pay money on your subscription whilst the developers try desperately to lay more train track in front of the train. The WoW style copied to so many MMOs is a classic 'lets slow people down and give them something to do whilst we develop the next set of content'.
EVE has worked out that actually, people don't wish to log in and grind to progress; they want to enjoy that progress and do something useful with it. They don't need to add content on a six month rotation simply to give the next batch of level 50s something new to do; they add content that can benefit everyone, because the game is predicated on a design where player ingenuity and cunning are what ultimately reap rewards.
I recognise that the OP tried to avoid going directly to the grind approach, but it still feels way too much of a slippery slope to me. Skills are long because they force the player to think, to recognise that they can either be a jack of all trades, or a specialist, in various areas. It's a flexible alternative to the class system in other games - you're not forced down a specific path from your starting choices, but you do have paths to choose.
It's also a misconception that purely by repetitively doing a task, you become better at it. Training is almost always a requirement in any advanced discipline.
THIS is an excellent reply, full or arguments that give one something to answer on.
Originally by: Straight Chillen Please never implement this
THIS is a moron's reply, that adds NOTHING to the conversation.
Originally by: Cyriel Longinus Edited by: Cyriel Longinus on 17/11/2008 13:44:38
NO.
The Skill System in EvE not broken. There's no need to "improve", "adjust", "enhance" or wreck it with change.
No matter how much clever you want to wrap around it ... this an idea that is obviously motivated by a deep desire to **** over a good game system to grant one player instant gratification or power gamer experience ... so that he can play EvE for a month then **** off to another game ...
The benefits of the current system are HUGE ... we have players that love playing EvE and plays it like a community. If it took less than a few months to achieve all things in EvE ... the game would dry up like any game that allows you to Level to the end game.
In EvE we have no I-Win buttons or obvious end game.
THIS is also a pointless reply, standard conservative way of thinking. Ze current system is great. Ze current system can't be better. Ze current system rules. Bot bot bot.
Please read Bohm on the Art of Dialogue.
The whole discussion except its practical sides, I believe is more on principle. And the principle from my point of view is that, why not allowing people play in the way they want to. That's the middle road, or a hybrid system. Of course, I wouldn't want a system that pushes players to grind, but if let's say they want to grind, why not following their own path and getting rewarded, or their will is promoted by actually rewarding them for enjoying themselves?
Isn't the current system doing the same for you? You like it, you enjoy it, so it rewards you and promotes your will on the way you want to enjoy Eve. Why the other's, who are many really, and either quit the game or never stay long can't have the same experience from the moment that it won't affect the way it works for you?
cont. |
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