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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Mikal Drey
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 21:58:00 -
[61]
hey hey
Ice, this is exactly how us Matari pilots have been doing it for years. Caldari got complacent and suffered for it. knowing the exact capabilities for your ship is always high on my list.
just wanna add :
1. know your enemy : guristas jam - fit fof, serps damp - sensor booster. etc 2. raven isnt the only ship, a nh is the awesomeness :)
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Noriko Sakai
Gallente DC1 Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:11:00 -
[62]
We should at least temporary sticky this thread. Good post! |
Khwalik
Ghetto Kings
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Posted - 2008.11.14 22:43:00 -
[63]
I endorse this post, well done |
Ervol Libra
Amarr Invenio Inceptum
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Posted - 2008.11.14 23:33:00 -
[64]
/bump
Just because its true and cool |
Hecate Shaw
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.11.15 06:14:00 -
[65]
I'm stunned...a logical, well thought-out and honestly helpful post! Congratulations to the OP, and thank you!
As to those who say that "train skills" isn't helpful:
1) The OP doesn't just say to train skills, it offers very specific insights into where your skills might be lacking and how to remedy that, and offers some tips on how to use what you have.
2) If you don't like the fact that battleships are rightfully skill-intensive to fly properly, may I suggest taking a different route and going for AF's and HAC's? Then go on to Command Ships for level 4 missions? I honestly think you'll have to spend some time working your way up no matter what, but it's a thought. Oh, and FYI...I spent almost 6 months training to fly a BS, in skills specific to one (the Raven)...and now I saw only a little difference in my Raven vs Frigs post-patch, which a painter took care of quite nicely. Turns out I didn't need quite so much tank after all. |
S'vart Tseirgn
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.15 08:37:00 -
[66]
Op - awesome post, good work
Only one thing I noticed was wrong with it...optimal shield recharge is 30%, not 25% (having used passive ships for the last >12mths :P) |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.11.15 08:44:00 -
[67]
Good first post.
Just for reference, I can say my alt hasn't even fitted the TP (and havn't got those skills either) and am still doing fine.
Shield tank skills at IV, Energy Management IV and Energy System Op V with mix of medium/light t2 drones was the first thing I got, with missile skills at level 1 (yes). Next thing I got was Target Nav Prediction/Guidance IV. I still only got Cruise III on her I think, she's dabbling into other skills same time.
But she still runs missions faster in Amarr space than Misanth does, in a Paladin, with t2 large guns etc. Yes, after the patch. Eat that, missile whiners. Read the OP's post, learn to shield boost at right time and use drones damnit. |
Zalathar
Minmatar Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.11.15 08:54:00 -
[68]
excellent post, but there are things that this does not solve. For example when fighting angels and they ccelerate to 300m/s to get to you, you will start hitting them for about 50 to 70 damage. webs only get you so far, as they can't do anything about approach cpeed.
Other than that, your guide covers most ways of getting around the nerf. ~~~~~~ *mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!"* ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge you soo pretty I think you're stunningly handsome and let me just say that you're wearing that dead parrot on your shoulder in a particularly dashing way today. -Hango Your using up all the space hango! - Timmeh |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.11.15 10:40:00 -
[69]
My raven experiences post patch have been good. battleships seem to die at about the same rate, battle cruisers are still a 3 volley to kill. now Npc cruisers are a bit tougher to kill, but I usually let my drones kill them, or just shoot them with my paladin (in this case a drake, which did fine). I have been using waves of all light drones recently due to disconnect problems, so that hasn't been much of an issue. (cruise 4, guided missile precision 1, target navigation prediction 1, cal bs 5, 4 bcus, no painter)
I have not had a chance to play with explosion velocity/radius rigs, or target painters.
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Oftherocks
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.15 10:48:00 -
[70]
I appreciate the OP making such a rational and helpful post.
However, here is my problem: I have excellent missile skills I have excellent TP skills I fly a Golem which has a TP bonus, and a explosion velocity bonus. When I fly my Golem, I fit the best TP available and use it on every ship I destroy. When I run missions I always load mission specific missiles. Still, after this patch I am incabable of inflicting anything close to full damage against BS's.
So while I appreciate your post, I still believe there may be a small problem with the new missile mechanics. |
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Darth Vaders
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:08:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Darth Vaders on 15/11/2008 11:15:21
After trying the target painting for a while it seems to me that in an unbonused ship (in target painter use) you need 2 target painters as it is now to start seeing results and still it's not that great (I use the named one that gives the same attributes as the tech2 TP)
In general the TP is considered a less effective EWAR weapon compaired to all the rest and with the recent changes in mind i would suggest to increase the signature radius increase percent the TP gives. Currently is at 30% for the tech 2 and i find it rather incignificant. Now if it had 40% signature increase things would be better.
So my suggestion to CCP is that you should increase TP effectivness raising them at 40% signature radius increase. That way you boost slightly the ships that got a big hit in this patch like the "Missile Ships" (mostly the caldari line) and the Rapiers (due to the web nerf) and at the same time make the currently useless Belicose a bit more useful.
In it's current state i don't think a single TP can make a difference in an unbonused ship considering the fact that you need to lose a middle and sacrifice tank or cap recharge that way.
CCP think of it! |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:40:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 15/11/2008 11:40:48 I use an alternative method to tanking missions than the cookiecutter raven tank. I find it works quite well, though many flame me for such a build. but i typically have no problem tanking any L4 mission.
My current setup( changed for the patch) Highs: 4- cruise launchers 2- heavy launchers 2- large smartbombs
Mids 1- target painter 2- invulns 3- large shield extenders
lows 2-5 shield power relays( mission variable) 0-3 BCS ( mission variable)
Rigs 3 - shield purgers
Drones 15- lights( though you could do 5 med and 5 lights and switch them back and forth depending on target size)
The low slots are variable for your tank. easy missions more BCS, heavy dps missions more relays to tank. typically i can do most missions with 2 BCS. you could switch smart bombs with a drone link for extra drone range. or run a NOS though i rarely fall below 50% cap even when heavily tanking. I use a couple of heavies to help with the frigs and cruisers. if i get a heavy BS mission( like recon part 2) these would switched to cruise missiles.
While this may get flames by vet players. i find it is far superior to active tanks at least for my skill level ( 5 mil SP).i very rarely have to warp out of a mission to "recharge" and usually the only time i do is because i wasnt paying attention to triggers.
I would like to add one more suggestion no matter what type of tank you use. Use the eve mission survival guide located here:
http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=MissionReports
This is probably the most important thing you will need on l4 missions. It makes doing missions 10 times easier. It will save you alot of headache and probably a few ships.
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Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:43:00 -
[73]
Sticky this |
Vaugue
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Posted - 2008.11.15 11:48:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Vaugue on 15/11/2008 11:56:35 hmm. I am one of those Nighthawk pilots currently doing 4's. I don't fit a painter... i don't even use a cut and paste set up, I don't read up much on fits. Just go with my own style and common sense. I ask for advice here and there when I need it and ussualy get some good answers and varried opinions.
6 CN heavies.
2 passive shield hardners. (gurista faction) 1 Large Shield Booster (gurista faction) 2 T2 large extenders.
2 T2 BCU's 2 T2 Diagnostics 1 Damage Control
Edit : Should I mention I have 0 rigs lol. I just happened to notice at the bottom of the fit screen 2 little open slots and I was like "What are those". Haven't trained it yet and had no clue what they were till a couple days ago Also just learned about overheating. Had no clue there either. Couple weeks of some catch up and I should see some nifty improvements.
I run 4's with no issues. Every mission with the above set up. I dont switch out mods or nothing. I go with what I got. Sure I don't get em' done as fast as the solopwnmobile. Even have to warp out now and again if I get a massive blob. Not that often though, NH tanks like a beast. Should also mention I only have 17 million SP. (very focused on NH though, been a BC pilot since even before Drake exsisted. Good ole ferrox loaded with launchers). Will be a NH till I'm old and grey or until T3 Commandships show up someday if at all
Not trying to brag a fitting or anything. Really though if my noobness (and I'm pretty green and comming back from a 2 year break so rusty and behind the times to add to that) can just log in after not playing for 2 years, missing a tonne of new skills, and clueless to some new mechanics and do 4's with very little to no troubles I really can't see the huge deal here. I guess if a mission takes someone 15 mins longer it's just such a waste a time and needs to be changed. Or maybe it's because cut and paste no brainer fittings don't work now? There's a bit more tactical choices to be made due to balancing. God forbid people have to *think* about thier set up, or even be at the keys while they play.
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.15 12:35:00 -
[75]
Can i Add a couple of things here perhaps?
i've been bitterly opposed to the missile changes for that last few days but to be fair the first few missions where i came up against frigs i was getting the elite version that were hard to kill any way and was a bit freaked out to be hitting them for 11 each.
since then i have decided to see what i can do you work with the tools we have no since there is not much else i can do in the short term but get over it and soldier on.
imo painters are crap without all the support skills (wich i dont have yet) - it added 3 damage points to the frigs i was shooting and 10 points to the BS i was hitting. a 4 slot tank is ok if you are running agsint minnies or guristas since you get about 75/65 resists but it would be craps for angels or anything that hits with em/therm. a 5 slot with a faction invuln and 2 spec hardners is better.
so now you have at least one free slot - what to put in it. webbers are ok the do help a lot better than a painter - i will comparte again when i train the additional skills that boost painter effect. but what i HAVE found is that an AB is just what the doctor ordered. first it allows you to kite rats really really well and after all what are caldari if not ranged damage. the real benefit here is that with your AB you can mitigate up to 60% of all incoming missile damage. i was laughing when torps were hitting me for 48 damage. i stopped still to see what the normal hit was and it was 105 standing still. cruise were hitting for 27.8 on this particular day. i was doing GE and throwing caution to the wind popping off all the triggers and not having a problem.
(the flip side of that is if you choose to use missiles in pvp it means that you get tanked by the same amount just cos your opponent has fit an AB which is too much imo)
also i dropped 2 bcus' and fit and extra PDU2 and a temprary cpu till my riggs skilsl are up and then trashed 2 CCC's and fit 2 flare rigs. my missile exp velocity is now 100, up from 69. there is also a couple of implants im getting one that gives 5% exp velocity and another that gives lesss cpu needs for launchers (needed for the rig drawback)
my frig killing worries are over and with the ab fitted i fele that my damage mitigation is much better than it was when i used to sit in one spot and soak it all up. missiels are tanked very well and the AB also gets you out of laser or gun optimal very fast. guns and lasers dont even screatch ya at max range, and you get the bonus of a long tim to lock frigs and waste em as the burn in towards you. its not often now that i even have to worry about silly little drones etc. i only pop em out now if i get webbed ccos thats just not cool at all.
thanks
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 12:42:00 -
[76]
Originally by: My Sister
also i dropped 2 bcus' and fit and extra PDU2 and a temprary cpu till my riggs skilsl are up and then trashed 2 CCC's and fit 2 flare rigs. my missile exp velocity is now 100, up from 69. there is also a couple of implants im getting one that gives 5% exp velocity and another that gives lesss cpu needs for launchers (needed for the rig drawback)
thanks
If you train up the rigging( in this case launcher rigging) it help offsets the drawback. you could train launcher rigging 1 level and probably wouldnt need the implant.
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My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.15 12:47:00 -
[77]
thanks yes im im the way to level 3 will continue to lvl4 and i did mention the cpu was temporary - i just need more because im fitting an AB and the flare rigs are new and im still training down the drawbacks :)
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Vaugue
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Posted - 2008.11.15 12:48:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Vaugue on 15/11/2008 12:50:08
Originally by: My Sister Stuff
cudos for adaptation
Agree with you on the AB thing though. I tried this literaly a few minutes ago and wow you aren't kidding about ab mitigating dmg. It's like an ab is like fitting 2 or 3 tanking mods and I zip around faster. Almost feels like cheating.
I haven't pvp'd since I returned but to think of the AB against me will mitigate that much of me. Kinda scary. Will have to deal with it. I enjoy being support anyway rather than a pure killer. Hence the CS lover that I am |
My Sister
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Posted - 2008.11.15 12:58:00 -
[79]
Edited by: My Sister on 15/11/2008 13:06:11 Edited by: My Sister on 15/11/2008 13:05:21
Originally by: Vaugue
cudos for adaptation
Agree with you on the AB thing though. I tried this literaly a few minutes ago and wow you aren't kidding about ab mitigating dmg. It's like an ab is like fitting 2 or 3 tanking mods and I zip around faster. Almost feels like cheating.
I haven't pvp'd since I returned but to think of the AB against me will mitigate that much of me. Kinda scary. Will have to deal with it. I enjoy being support anyway rather than a pure killer. Hence the CS lover that I am
yeah but i think ravens havent been a solo pvp ship for a very long time anyway - somthing about people seeing the damned missiles comming from afar and warping out or just speed tanking. so we'll be needing that tackler, in any case we'll be fine flying with the support we've become accustomed to in the past. i think we've got a handle on the missions now anyway :)
in a way i think we may just be better off now in pvp because all that sig radius stuff and speed stuff CAN be turned around we just gotta work up a pvp fit that takes advantage of the new mechanics if p[ainters become popular so several others in your party all paint the primary i can see how a number of them on a target combined with a flare rigged missile boat could really top out the damage past what we have its really scaleable damage now
also that target navigation prediction skill is much more worthwhile training to level 5 - i spent 75 mil on a plant that gives me only 5% exp velocity where that skill gives 10% of the same per level. even after dropping 2 bcu's my dmage is only 10 short of what is was with 4 factions fitted before i changed my fit - im feeling optomistic. however i shouldnt crow too much about it - if it sounds too good it might get nerfed...
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.15 13:00:00 -
[80]
Op should add: train up DCU II (Damage Controll II). Don't leave home without it.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:36:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Slistine Death OP... thank you for your time.
However, I PVP occasionally in a cruise Raven, I've enjoyed a SB cruise manticore and various other uses of missile systems IN PVP.A BS can now speed tank me with a single AB fitted as soon as they get over 170m/s.
And this is directed directly CCP Navigator... what is your solution to that one? HUH? More stupid nerfs making a whole class of weapon systems completely worthless along with player's millions of sps and months of training down the tube.
CCP Navigator when was the last time you actually played EVE? And when was the last time anyone from CCP responded to a post asking a real question?
Read my other recent posts if you want to get an idea of what a portion of EVE thinks of the direction you guys are taking this year.
Can EYE HAVE YOUR STUFF?
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:42:00 -
[82]
Bump 'cause it STILL hasn't been stickied I don't want to set the world on fire |
Calranthe
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:58:00 -
[83]
Originally by: ********vomDIENST
Originally by: Ice Moon If you're in dire trouble in L4 missions after the patch, then you will need to train up some skills and / or refit your ship. That's a reality. But, this may not be as much of a 'mare as you think: I thought I'd pen some (probably obvious or incorrect) comments, just in case newer players might be a bit lost...
Give me an advice what i shall do if i have regular shutdowns and crahses, because CCP isnt able to fix the realtek or the ATI problem?
I need a perma fitting otherwise i lose my ship...
Shutdowns could be alot of reasons
Simple but costly solution swap to a decent sound card and nvidia graphics card |
Asuri Kinnes
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:48:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Slistine Death The question still hasn't been answered on the unbalancing in pvp when using missiles.
The problem still remains and the question has been avoided and not answered.
Op did do a nice job of offering solutions to the PVE missile carebear, however PVP cruise boat setups are broken and PVE is not PVP.
And I've been getting 'served' by CCP every since the boot.ini issue.
Ummmm - OP did a bang up job on defining the problem(s), offering suggestions for fits and training, and avoided whining. OP was specifically working for the "PVE RAVEN PILOT". OP has done a service for all of us who were feeling somewhat (how shall I say this?) "used" by the adjustment.
On the other hand, you have (partially) described a problem, and brought nothing else. Why don't you copy/past the OP's original post, go to the appropriate design thread, and try to fill in the blanks for a PVP setup?
THEN, at the very end (when everyone is amazed at your scintillating intellect) - ask (VERY POLITELY) if, maybe, CCP hasn't adjusted missiles just a TINY bit too much, as the differences in Missiles pre/post patch are too extreme. I believe that will get you much further with your concerns for PVP missile fits than trolling a PVE thread... vOv.
Bye the way, just so its clear - I'm a pve'r that just started getting into PvP, with Missiles, and I was totally P.O.'d at the changes - I mean really - explosion velocities that resembled the speed at which eggs boil and not actually military weapons?
Even if CCP did over-nerf missiles for pve/pvp - OP's method is going to attract FAR more attention than all the negative/strident posting from everyone else - it just becomes "background noise" after so much...
Good luck with the pvp fix - thanks OP. |
Dmian
Gallente Gallenterrorisme
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:36:00 -
[85]
Bumping a great thread. ----
Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Bangkirai
Brewery Research Ltd Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:43:00 -
[86]
Great thread, but it doesnt fix any problems.
I am better trained then what TS is posting.
Conclusions so far from me: t1 is working as intended, well sort off, dps decreased however. t2 is NOT working as intended. No matter what implants, skills, use of target painter or not you will use. Raven lost its role, no matter if you follow the examples of the TS. Hams are even less good then before, the javelin assault even lost their range they had before patch.
Well trained character, that can fly multiple race, is better off picking a gallente drone ship on this moment. Cheaper ships to lose and fit then raven and does more dps on this moment.
A well trained person, doesnt need any target painting if using rigor rigs on raven. The paint is usefull for fury cruise, but then again, just using t1 and keep your tank well is better.
Lets face it however, lvl 4 missions are not difficult in almost any ship by well trained characters. At this moment the changes in the games only means: Its not interesting to train t2 cruise skills anymore or use the ammo. Better pick another race then caldari, because they just can be trained and fitted more efficient for most roles now.
The changes in game are not things, that you can fix by fitting or training skills. Missiles have very hard penalties now, while the rats are not even changed with speed, that is one of the problems. They fly as fast as before.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:57:00 -
[87]
Originally by: My Sister a 4 slot tank is ok if you are running agsint minnies or guristas since you get about 75/65 resists but it would be craps for angels or anything that hits with em/therm. a 5 slot with a faction invuln and 2 spec hardners is better.
Quite nice to see your experience, but I just want to correct this misconception you posted.
My alt is running lv4's in Amarr space, a bit over half the missions are doing EM/Thermal damage and I run a 3 or 4-slot tank. My missile skills are level 3 and shield tank skills level 4, with one or two at lv5 so I can fit full t2. Only faction item I have is my shield boost Amp as I can't use t2 - I will swap to t2 when I can use it. The last part of missions are a mix of omnitanked, Angels and Guristas/Serpentis, all of those I run a 4-slot tank.
Four BCU in lows, Arbalest launchers and rest fit t2, nothing special at all, and quite low skills.
I'm starting to think that these mission issues are racial related, or that full-skilled pilots that are relying alot on their high max damage, are having more issues than us mid-skill-pilots.
As I posted in my previous post, that alt of mine still does better than Misanth that can fly Paladin with t2 large guns and all support at lv5. "Still" means after the expansion.
I am quite active during the missions tho, X-L booster and I move in certain patterns to keep my killing perfectly balanced with the boosting (and I keep the shield/cap regen at ideal levels).
Could be that it's a matter of racial missions, strategies in missions, or fittings, I don't know.. but the major difference I notice is that I have to swap between medium/light drones alot. Not a bit difference on my cruises. |
Karentaki
Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:39:00 -
[88]
Wow, great informative and well thought out thread. Hopefully this will calm the forums down a bit.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Rumba Purring
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:53:00 -
[89]
Without being judgemental whether new changes are good or bad, here's my experience coping with the 'new hand' dealt to me.
I fly L4 missions in Domain with a cruise Raven. Most of my BS and missile skills are at 4, only few at 5.
I added a target painter following suggestions in forum. In order to make a room, I sacrificed a shield resistance module. To compensate for loss in tank, I found flying my ship arround helpful. Even without AB, damage mitigation from base BS speed seems to more than make up for loss in my ships tank if I can maintain speed. If I'm webbed, I need to kill webbers fast.
To address this, my drone arsenal was adjusted to include T2 light drones, which are pretty effective in taking out webbers. I have now hot keys assigned so that I can swap drones in a snap.
If I get multiple webbers, though, even a full set of T2 light drones will take some time to kill them all off, and in the meanwhile shield will drop rather fast, which means I have to use booster more frequently than than my cap regen can handle. (I don't like cap-stable perma boost setting - I fit BCUs for damage.) So now I use a heavy NOS to supplement cap regen, which means I have to make sure there are rats within range to suck cap from.
Bottomline, flying a level 4 mission now is a rather busy activity (more fun, imo). It's no longer warp in, stay stationary, ctrl-click on overview, F1-F7. Now I have to keep ship flying to mitigate damage, to keep some rats within NOS range, constantly swap between drone types, activate/deactivate shield boost & NOS, etc. But I have not experienced any change in time it takes to complete missions, if anything, they go faster, since I'm applying the right 'tool' to the right job.
Just sharing my experience. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.11.15 17:58:00 -
[90]
Rumba, that goes pretty much in-line with what I posted above. I've always been moving around tho, and I don't have my shield drop that fast (the extra buffer from CNR over Raven is really nifty when a bit lower skilled). My alt has better capskills than shield tank skills, and 3x CCC fitted tho, but exactly like you described the difference is the drones, and the activity in missions.
Paying more attention to shieldboosting and swapping medium/lights in/out all the time is the major thing, but the difference in killing speed is neglible, I havn't even noticed a change there. |
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