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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.15 08:52:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Doktor Malinowka wrote:sorry son, but you`re the one who dont know what it means...
when every single player in the game can build what a T2 BPO owner can, you think thats Monopoly?
Read the thread...
Like I said before... Remove invention and this problem goes away. Only owners of T2 BPOs should be allowed to produce T2 ships/items. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Bait Club
131
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Posted - 2012.09.15 10:17:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Kara Book`s alt wrote:Doktor Malinowka wrote:sorry son, but you`re the one who dont know what it means...
when every single player in the game can build what a T2 BPO owner can, you think thats Monopoly? Read the thread... Like I said before... Remove invention and this problem goes away. Only owners of T2 BPOs should be allowed to produce T2 ships/items.
true, but we dont live in a perfect world
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.15 10:39:00 -
[1143] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:true, but we dont live in a perfect world
Then:
- Remove invention - Give more T2 BPOs to current active T2 BPO owners - Allow them to "copy" job to other slots in same system (only one print per item is needed) - If there's not enough free slots for T2 BPO owner jobs with highest % completed will be canceled (only if T1 job) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1271
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 11:50:00 -
[1144] - Quote
And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 14:22:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ?
Currently profit you as T2 BPO owner get from your investment is very small. That should be fixed. And because we are in cold and harsh universe cap between elite players and lesser players should be bigger. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
660
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Posted - 2012.09.15 17:28:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ? Currently profit you as T2 BPO owner get from your investment is very small. That should be fixed. And because we are in cold and harsh universe cap between elite players and lesser players should be bigger.
This has now gotten to the point of performance art. Someone needs to go back and actually read Artaud and try again. |
Pipa Porto
939
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Posted - 2012.09.15 18:18:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ? Currently profit you as T2 BPO owner get from your investment is very small. That should be fixed. And because we are in cold and harsh universe cap between elite players and lesser players should be bigger.
Either you're trying (and horribly failing) to set up a straw man, or you've changed your mind in the most absurd way.
Either way, you need help.
The breaking of the BPO bottleneck of T2 production was intentional. Leaving BPOs in place to provide a baseline supply of uncommon items was equally intentional.
Quote and Link where anyone of substance has suggested removing Invention or Buffing BPOs. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1271
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 05:43:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ? Currently profit you as T2 BPO owner get from your investment is very small. That should be fixed. And because we are in cold and harsh universe cap between elite players and lesser players should be bigger. In spite of you obviously trolling, I will bite and answer honestly, as if you weren't.
There is absolutely no problem with tiny RoIs as long as the investment amount is very high, but only if the amount of effort required per absolute profit amount total is noticeably lower than a similar total profit from a significantly lower investment in other manufacture branches. As such, T2 BPOs provide a way to leverage existing funds which would otherwise sit unused (or at least heavily underused) for industrialist-minded people too busy to do much more micro-management, while industrialists with more free time can opt to actively spend some of it extra to get more ISK in the same total timespan.
There are already way better methods to invest large lumps of ISK and get significantly more back in a shorter time span than T2 BPOs, but the risk is higher, and the intellectual effort much higher, so it's not for everybody (and even then, not all the time).
The gap between the "elite" and "n00b" players is already huge enough (not to be confused with the gap between "casual" and "active", which is a different issue altogether), and would remain similarly huge even if EITHER all T2 BPOs would be removed OR the invention process was removed. It's more than just raw ISK that makes the difference, it's expertise in finding ways to make ISK efficiently. An "elite" player will keep adapting to new ways of efficiently squeezing ISK out of almost any opportunity, while a "n00b" will keep on complaining that the one thing he learned how to do is not doing all that well (because there's too many other "n00bs" doing it lately). http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.16 10:50:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Akita T wrote:The gap between the "elite" and "n00b" players is already huge enough (not to be confused with the gap between "casual" and "active", which is a different issue altogether), and would remain similarly huge even if EITHER all T2 BPOs would be removed OR the invention process was removed. It's more than just raw ISK that makes the difference, it's expertise in finding ways to make ISK efficiently. An "elite" player will keep adapting to new ways of efficiently squeezing ISK out of almost any opportunity, while a "n00b" will keep on complaining that the one thing he learned how to do is not doing all that well (because there's too many other "n00bs" doing it lately).
You got that wrong.
Elite players: players who get info about upcoming changes 2-3 months before everyone else so they can adapt. Like for example this barge change. These players started crafting thousands of Retrievers and are now just waiting the moment they can start creating minerals from thin air by reprocessing those Retrievers.
Normal EVE players: players who need to adapt to changes after the changes have been publicly announced. Players without hacking/exploiting skills. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Bait Club
131
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Posted - 2012.09.16 10:57:00 -
[1150] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote: Elite players: players who get info about upcoming changes 2-3 months before everyone else so they can adapt.
you just had to read forums to know that...I know, its a bit more complicated than posting as there is no "read" button, but thats why we are elite player and you are just a newbie.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.16 11:06:00 -
[1151] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote: Elite players: players who get info about upcoming changes 2-3 months before everyone else so they can adapt.
you just had to read forums to know that...I know, its a bit more complicated than posting as there is no "read" button, but thats why we are elite player and you are just a newbie.
No info about barge changes in February/March on forums... |
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
176
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 17:23:00 -
[1152] - Quote
Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ?
It's only a monopoly because they closed the lottery. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Bait Club
131
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 19:25:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Zelda Wei wrote: It's only a monopoly because they closed the lottery.
Hi, please dont throw with terms around wich you dont understand
Quote:A monopoly exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity
Are T2 BPO`s owners the only party that can supply T2 things?- No. Are the products made from BPO`s any different to Invention-made products?- No. Have T2 BPO`s ever created a Monopoly?- No, they didnt, at best a oligopoly before invention was introduced
tl;dr Monopoly has and had never anything to do with this |
Pipa Porto
946
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Posted - 2012.09.16 21:34:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote: Elite players: players who get info about upcoming changes 2-3 months before everyone else so they can adapt.
you just had to read forums to know that...I know, its a bit more complicated than posting as there is no "read" button, but thats why we are elite player and you are just a newbie. No info about barge changes in February/March on forums...
If you have any evidence to suggest that players were told of upcoming changes inappropriately, I'm sure CCP would love to hear about it in an email to [email protected]
Otherwise, stop lying, and how in the world do your paranoid theories about mining barges have any bearing on the issue of T2 BPOs? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
946
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 21:36:00 -
[1155] - Quote
Zelda Wei wrote:Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ? It's only a monopoly because they closed the lottery.
That's so strange. I could have sworn my Alt was creating T2 items identical to those produced by BPOs without access to any T2 BPO. Was I creating fake merchandise?
Anyone want to buy knockoff T2 Invulns? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1271
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 07:16:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Elite players: players who get info about upcoming changes 2-3 months before everyone else so they can adapt. you just had to read forums to know that...I know, its a bit more complicated than posting as there is no "read" button, but thats why we are elite player and you are just a newbie. No info about barge changes in February/March on forums... No info about the EXACT changes, true, but that's because they weren't final yet.
The first news about the change was during Fanfest 2012 (in February), when they explained in more detail what they WANT to do about the so-called "tiericide", and explicitly mentioning they want to make barges more of a "role" thing rather than a "tier" thing. The videos are up on youtube for everybody to see. Then in early March, there was a devblog about it, in case you can't be bothered to watch youtube vids.
"Elite players" could already DEDUCE that this would mean the "lower" barges will get buffed. HOW they would end up getting buffed was of a distant secondary importance. The main thing to take out of it was that they would certainly go up in price, so it was certainly a good time to start manufacturing some. Not being able to tell just from that info that you should go long on the low barge/exhumer tiers is a surefire sign you don't have what it takes to be an "elite" player, taking advantage of any scrap of info you get your hands on.
The actual changes to the barges were quite irrelevant, the only difference would have been just how much ISK you'd be making, NOT the difference between making some or making none. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1271
|
Posted - 2012.09.17 07:25:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Zelda Wei wrote:Akita T wrote:And why exactly would CCP add back something they explicitly said they wanted to remove (the monopoly on T2 production) and did so equally explicitly by adding invention ? It's only a monopoly because they closed the lottery. That's so strange. I could have sworn my Alt was creating T2 items identical to those produced by BPOs without access to any T2 BPO. Was I creating fake merchandise? Anyone want to buy knockoff T2 Invulns? Well, the proper phrasing I should have used would have needed to be "the oligopoly on T2 production by T2 BPO owners" instead of "the monopoly on T2 production" shorthand I did use. This was supposed to contrast with the invention "anybody can build T2 stuff" possibility. To elaborate, in practical terms, for items with demand beyond production capability of T2 BPOs, an oligopoly on T2 production was pretty much the same as a monopoly on T2 production anyway, since it was fairly obvious for T2 BPO owners that they WILL get to sell their product either way (so it was only a matter of how fast you wanted the funds). The only significant differences back in pre-invention-times showed up for items with supply capabilities in excess of demand, but those were junk before and still are junk (barring infrequent buffs). http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
128
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 22:58:00 -
[1158] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote: Are the products made from BPO`s any different to Invention-made products?- No.
Sadly yes, they are produced at a fraction of the cost as they don't require any invention costs such as data cores, t1 copying and decryptors. It is true that the T2BPO's required research points to obtain but the number was so unbelievably small for what the T2bpo is worth it's not even worth factoring.
T2BPO's also have a much higher ME an P than the invented copies which have -10 -10. A buff to invention so that inventions have 100 100 ME and P would be a welcome nerf to T2BPO's. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Pipa Porto
972
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Posted - 2012.09.20 23:33:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:shar'ra matcevsovski wrote: Are the products made from BPO`s any different to Invention-made products?- No.
Sadly yes, they are produced at a fraction of the cost as they don't require any invention costs such as data cores, t1 copying and decryptors. It is true that the T2BPO's required research points to obtain but the number was so unbelievably small for what the T2bpo is worth it's not even worth factoring. T2BPO's also have a much higher ME an P than the invented copies which have -10 -10. A buff to invention so that inventions have 100 100 ME and P would be a welcome nerf to T2BPO's.
Stop lying. Most (if not all) blueprints have a base invented ME/PE of -4/-4. You can't even get the basic mechanics right.
Second, if you think the products made from BPOs are different than those made from invention, show me how to distinguish between a T2 item built from a BPO and one built through invention. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
shar'ra matcevsovski
Bait Club
145
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 04:51:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: bump
l2read, the result of a BPO or BPC are exactly the same, even tho the requirments were different. |
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
129
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 09:40:00 -
[1161] - Quote
''Stop lying'' so T2BPO and inventions have the same M and P efficiency? Well good to know we can close this thread now and that CCP has finally fixed it's most terrible mistake after all these years . Hint, hint CCP, fix T2BPO bring invented T2 BPC's up to spec with regards to M & P efficiency.
Nope, just checked the BPO's and CCP still giving it's pet players and corps huge hand outs that continue to this day in the form of unending T2BPO productions. Anyway blah the only way to set things right now would be a complete server restart where CCP admits the mistakes it made by constantly interfering and giving it's mates 'cool stuff' and then removing stuff that other players managed to get off their own back.
Example goon FW manipulation. CCP ''What? someone has obtained trillions of isk worth of content with out us placing it straight into their lap? Take it, take it ALL!'' Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1421
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 09:51:00 -
[1162] - Quote
page 58 and still going strong, lol TK is recruiting |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
129
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 16:00:00 -
[1163] - Quote
On that note I'm going to stop posting here again and let the thread slide down the list until it gets necro'd by some one else discovering the crap T2BPO situation for the first time. I should really have put this thread in the eve general where it could easily have got 500 pages by now. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
CorInaXeraL
Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz
204
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Posted - 2012.09.21 16:07:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Posting in a future necro'd thread.
Also, I <3 T2BPOs. I want this bumper-stickered onto all of my ships. |
Pipa Porto
987
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Posted - 2012.09.21 18:21:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:On that note I'm going to stop posting here again and let the thread slide down the list until it gets necro'd by some one else discovering the crap T2BPO situation for the first time. I should really have put this thread in the eve general where it could easily have got 500 pages by now.
The part where Brewlar admit's it's all about the attention whoring.
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:''Stop lying'' so T2BPO and inventions have the same M and P efficiency? Well good to know we can close this thread now and that CCP has finally fixed it's most terrible mistake after all these years . Hint, hint CCP, fix T2BPO bring invented T2 BPC's up to spec with regards to M & P efficiency.'
Reading is helpful if you want to understand things. You claimed that invented BPCs had an ME/PE of -10/-10. That's a lie. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.09.22 16:52:00 -
[1166] - Quote
Man, I can't believe people are still trying to get rid of T2 BPOs after all these years. Give it up people, it's not going to happen.
The only "fair" way to remove T2 BPOs without screwing everybody would be to reimburse the owners with the isk market value of the BPOs prior to the announcement of their removal. That's definitely never going to happen for a variety of reasons.
What should be done is a new system should be put in place where there's an astronomically small chance to invent a T2 BPO from an invention job. This chance should be astronomically low, and should also be scaled down and up as needed to avoid ruining the standard invention markets. This system would reward inventors directly by their manufacturing activity. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1278
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 20:43:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Gamer4liff wrote:What should be done is a new system should be put in place where there's an astronomically small chance to invent a T2 BPO from an invention job. This chance should be astronomically low, and should also be scaled down and up as needed to avoid ruining the standard invention markets. This system would reward inventors directly by their manufacturing activity. If it's TOO astronomically low, it makes more sense to just buy one from another holder, since the overall expected average cost is lower, but in time, values keep sliding down either way, since more keep showing up. If the chance is not low enough, there will be a huge chase after them, leading to a crash in value in the long run due to the rebound oversupply effect.
Also, the perceived value ascribed to the "uniqueness" of these items (particularly poignant for "crap" items) will plummet because of the ability to create new ones (regardless of cost) renders it far less meaningful. They will of course retain some degree of added value due to scarcity, but nowhere near as high as nowadays.
All in all, the ability to create ANY new T2 BPOs will eventually lead to a situation where invention becomes eventually meaningless as long as no extra (bottleneck) moon minerals can be created over the amounts that can be generated today. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 |
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