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5pinDizzy
Amarr Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/11/2008 17:22:12
Seeing as I've played for 4 years, find everything very easy to use by now, yet still a week or two on, I can barely get my head around certificates, and if I'm having trouble understanding them, I'm wondering how beginners are fairing.
Because they are much harder, not easier, then using what was already there for me. Which could be put down to already learning all the other stuff over a large amount of time. Hence the thread.
Even if I ignore them I still have to put up with the fact that my character sheet is more cluttered.
Also every single ship info window is about 8 inches longer due to the extra pointless tab telling you what to certificates you need for the ship. I guess would have made too much sense making it another section under prerequisites.
(I'm hoping the upcoming total GUI revamp is what we have to wait for and the current system is just past point of care for CCP and they just stick things anywhere.)
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:23:00 -
[2]
I've actually very recently started training serious gunnery skills (drone ***** normally) and I've found certificates pretty helpful. If nothing else, even for experienced players it's a lot quicker than just looking for all the skills for a particular section. They're also great at making you feel inferior about your skills. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
5pinDizzy
Amarr Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:30:00 -
[3]
Well if they're tarminic approved, I guess I've got to bite the bullet more and learn to adapt... or die.
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Verx Interis
Amarr Modicus Dementis
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:35:00 -
[4]
I'm not going to agree with them as long as they say I need SHIELD skills for Armor Tanking certificates..... -- Your bad loan management perfectly strikes the stock market, wrecking for -777.68 points. |
Faife
Noctiscion
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Posted - 2008.11.24 17:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Verx Interis I'm not going to agree with them as long as they say I need SHIELD skills for Armor Tanking certificates.....
lrn2armor tank.
the shields are a buffer. you don't need much and it's only for elite. by not starting armor rep longer you save cap and gain time to deal damage longer. see, you certificates taught you something. --
i am a humble and inefficient ammo to dps converter |
General Ric
EXPLORATIS
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:08:00 -
[6]
In my experience certificates are pretty useless. They "recommend" spreading your skill points around to all sorts of skills, many of which are completely unneeded to actually fly that ship effectively. For example take a look at the recommended skills for the Drake... especially the Core Competency Standard. The sheer number of skills that it recommends makes it completely useless for the average player. There is no "order" to the list, it basically just tells you to train everything that you might find useful to level IV or V. A noob might get lucky and pick the useful skills to train first, but chances are if he is really that clueless he is going to end up wasting his time training Mechanic IV, Electronic Upgrades V or some other generically somewhat useful skill that really has nothing to do with your actual ability to maximize the potential of a ship like the Drake. Also it tells you to train both Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile, when you would probably be much better of focusing on just one of those skills. While I may have missed it, I do believe that the recommended skills for the drake has a conspicuous absence of the skill Warhead Upgrades, which you would be foolish not to train to at least level 3.
The recommended skills for flying T2 ships are even worse, often they don't even mention the skills that you should have to fly that ship. For example all logistics ships recommend the Logistics Chief Certificate - which tells you to train shield emission, remote armor repair, and energy emission skills. The recommendations are completely unspecific to the ship that you want to pilot, for example the Minmatar Logistics Cruiser has bonuses to Shield Emission systems, tracking links and shield maintenance drones. But none of the recommendations even mention tracking links or drones, and 2/3 of the requirements for the Logistics Chief Certificate are completely useless to that ship.
And finally, its also worth noting that I can't find any of the learning skills mentioned in any of the certificates. For the average noob, he may not realize the importance of these skills and start right away training "recommended" skills to improve the performance of his frigate. If the certificates really were intended to give guidance to people who aren't sure what to train, then I think this best falls under the category of "bad advice".
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 18:30:00 -
[7]
TBQH it's better if they train skills to improve their frigate before learning skills.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:09:00 -
[8]
Well, I've got to say, this is actually something that the more experience players are best to answer, not the new people. The idea is nice, but CCP seem to have this image of the game world that is entirely different to how it is played - there are some certificates that should not under any circumstances require the skills they do. That will be a big time-sink which will result in unhappy new pilots once they realise...
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:31:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Neth''Rae on 24/11/2008 19:34:03
Originally by: General Ric For the average noob, he may not realize the importance of these skills and start right away training "recommended" skills to improve the performance of his frigate. If the certificates really were intended to give guidance to people who aren't sure what to train, then I think this best falls under the category of "bad advice".
Never encourage newbs to start off with training learning skills.. It got me and a friend quiting the game the second time I tried it :D (but then again, I trained some skills to lvl 5)
There's nothing worse than training learning skills and feeling like you're not gaining anything.. Sure you can start by getting lvl 2, and eventually lvl 4 of all the basic learning skills.. But it's good to mix in alot of other stuff aswell, otherwise it's easy to feel like you're stuck and not progressing..
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
General Ric
EXPLORATIS
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:43:00 -
[10]
I'm not saying that noobs should start off training learning skills, but if they completely ignore training basic learning skills, even just sprinkled in with the rest of their skills, they are just shooting themselves in the foot in the long run. If a noob is training Targeting IV (required for Basic Core Competency) before they are training learning skills, they are really going to be ****ed off when they realize what a huge mistake they made trying to get their completely useless Certificate. I guess CCP didn't realize that Targeting IV is completely useless to every single T1 frigate in the game, and probably most cruisers as well.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.24 19:51:00 -
[11]
/me is a three year char. I really love this feature. I constructed my character around the gameplay things I saw, and I missed a lot of things / forgot to train / was lazy to train / don't even know.
It helped me a lot to "recenter" my char.
I mean, I though I had excellent fundamentals. This helps me a lot to see what are my flaws, and my strong points.
There a lot more certficates to come, I guess (there's nearly nothing for cap ships, nothing for spaceship command).
I'd love to see, for example, Minmatar frigate, cruiser and bs in a single certficate. Or minmatar cruiser / gallente cruiser / caldari cruiser / amarr cruiser in another one. With names... Not like "Cruiser certificate" but something like "Roaming Fury" for cruisers...
Certificates on basic pvp roles would be fine too. All the things to train to enter in a tackler ship would be fine, for example. Same for a snipping bs, an anti-support, a mining barge, a scout...
Or T2 ships requirements (a racial cruiser + logistics, for exemple) : I think people would have a lot more elite certs there than in the current version.
Overall, I like this very much, CCP ! Fetchez la vache !
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.24 20:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: General Ric learning skills
What would be the levels ?
Int +4 /per +4 / learning 5 for the basic Then Adv Int +3 / Adv per +3 / all basics at 4 Then all adv learning skills at 4 Then all learning skills at 5 for elite ?
Nobody trains elite there. It's not important unless you play more than 2 years.
It's a pretty tough certificate to organize, too. Because the faster way is something like int +1/per +1/int +2/per +2/int+3/per+3/int+4/per+4/learning 4/ adv int +1 /adv per +1 (...) then all the other learnings from +1 to +9.
Learning skils are really crap btw. Two monthes learning that while you discover the game and have 100's of skills to learn too.
What a pain in the ass for the newbies ! CCP, give us all learnings 5, tank the flamewar and enjoy what you gave to newbies ! Fetchez la vache !
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.24 20:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
What a pain in the ass for the newbies ! CCP, give us all learnings 5, tank the flamewar and enjoy what you gave to newbies !
They gave them a month worth of skills. Same thing
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Neth'Rae
Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 02:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
What a pain in the ass for the newbies ! CCP, give us all learnings 5, tank the flamewar and enjoy what you gave to newbies !
They gave them a month worth of skills. Same thing
Not really, training learning skills takes peoples edge of since their characters arn't getting any better at flying spaceships.. And learning to get better at learning to fly space ships, that just like a failing concept..
Trust me I have personal experience of this, and well that was before you started with almost a million skillpoints.. Me and a friend were like "damn we have to train all these learning skills otherwise we won't gain SP as fast, we have to max them out!" Yeah, it was really stupid, and both of us ended up leaving..
I got another friend who just started playing recently and he really likes the skilltraining system, but I don't think he'd like it as much if he only trained learning skills for his entire trial period..
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente aurorae pacificas
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Neth'Rae
training learning skills... that just like a failing concept.
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Trust me I have personal experience of this,
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Me and a friend were like "damn we have to train all these learning skills otherwise we won't gain SP as fast, we have to max them out!" Yeah, it was really stupid, and both of us ended up leaving..
Working as intended.
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Neesa Corrinne
Rogue Shadow Squad Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.25 03:34:00 -
[16]
I completely agree with General Ric.
Certificates are so freakin confusing that I was actually laughing as I went through them to find which ones I had qualified as "elite" in.
I find it hilarious that I can't get any of the elite gunnery skills, even tho I have every gunnery skill for two races maxxed out and the specialization skills all at 4.
Am I going to train Medium Autocannon Specialization to 5 just for the "elite" certificate? lol, not until it takes less than 15 days to train... and then only maybe.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:32:00 -
[17]
Playing devils advocate here for certificates ----
I have been a long time recruiter for RONA and what not. Certificates have a distinct advantage for recruiting purposes for both role/personal management.
If you are recruiting someone, you can have them put their certificates to public view, from there you can click on info and see what skills are needed to get those certificates such as skill blaa and skill blaahh at level meh. It makes it easier to know what a pilot is capable of and where you can direct them in the organization of alliances and corps.
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.25 04:43:00 -
[18]
I've been flying a Drake for quite some time now. I can tank the entire spawn of Worlds Collide (Angels, Sansha, whoever), the entire spawn of Mordus Headhunters, etc - all by knowing where to fly, rather than sitting there and copping EM cruise missiles in the face.
I qualify for basic shield tanking, yet my Drake is full T2 fitout. Apart from shield tanking, I think I qualified for about 20 certificates all up. I fly a Hulk, but because I'm not trained to refine ores, I don't qualify for any level of Harvester. I use T2 heavy missiles, T2 drones - but I only qualify for basic skills in those weapon systems.
A basic level of "Refinery Manager" or some such requires "scrap metal processing 2", while the next level up only requires "Metallurgy 3" - but Metallurgy 5 is a prerequisite for Scrap Metal Processing.
I do like the idea of the certificate system, it's encouraged me to train Shield Management up to 5 so I can springboard my way to "Shield Tanking (Advanced)" (the only requirement I'm missing is Shield Tanking (Basic)) and be a short hop skip and jump away from "Shield Tanking (Elite)" (a couple more levels in various shield compensation skills). But that's a long ride - I'll certainly have earned it by the time I get there.
My only gripe is that I can solo level 4 missions, and have yet to qualify for any combat certificate beyond "Basic" - I think I don't even qualify for Core Competency (Basic) since I can't use some non-L4-Tanking-Drake-Superbrick-related modules.
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Marius Damocles
Shadow-Tech. Industry's Templar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:03:00 -
[19]
I agree with the opinion that certificates are a good idea, they are a great idea, but i think that the idea was badly conceived. I have over 27 million skill points, and am specialized in a couple of areas (covops/recons for two races, can fly a hulk pretty effectively, and almost done training for an Orca), yet i still only have "basic" and "standard" certs in most places. I think that certificates need to be looked at again, and the requirements for most certs need to be revamped. My wife has a Nos ability that puts a "Curse" to shame. |
nekolove
Eve University
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Posted - 2008.11.25 06:26:00 -
[20]
The certificates helped me to figure out about the usage, existence and correlation of certain skills, mostly the 'utility' ones not directly related to the ship/module requirements. It's not bad, but other than this bit, a software like evemon offers me more.
To mention a few problems I found, some certificates take too long to get (lots level five skills without that much sense...). When you check it out with evemon you reject it, sometimes at standard, others at elite... Other certificates do not emphasize enough on the 'specialize' motto for new players, and spread too much SP. This is specially bad. Too simple certificates like a pair of skills at lvl1 are also not that much useful.
It will never be perfect, since players have always been ahead of the company on how to take advantage of different configurations. But it would be one of the things where this new CSM could work at.
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 08:24:00 -
[21]
Yeah, there's a lot of ones that don't make a lot of sense.
e.g. Core Targeting: Standard requires Multitasking I. Who needs to train that? I don't even have Targeting V after nearly 5 years and it's fine. 6 targets are plenty, especially when you need a very specific T2 or Cap ship to be able to target more; or a useless module.
So even though I can target the maximum number of objects in almost all of the ships I can regularly fly, I should train a skill that adds nothing to my ability just to be labeled "Standard"? How much sense does that make?
I mean, I can see how being Elite in a T2 weapon could require V in that skill. It's "elite" after all, and you do get a few more % of damage or RoF from training it. But just to be Standard I have to train a skill that is useless except in a very, very limited number of cases is beyond ridiculous.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
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Rehtom Lamina
ECM Space Patrol
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Posted - 2008.11.25 08:59:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Rehtom Lamina on 25/11/2008 09:03:16
Originally by: General Ric In my experience certificates are pretty useless. They "recommend" spreading your skill points aroun... ...ficates really were intended to give guidance to people who aren't sure what to train, then I think this best falls under the category of "bad advice".
Computer games have "recommend" specs but you dont always run them with "recommend".
Just becasue some people dont, wont or cant use them dosnt make them useless, just ignore them. I think they are great and have really helped when trying to explain things to new players in the corp.
Also, our corp will generally get our new players into a cruiser or salvaging dessy before going through learning skills, it works really well. You can get them to a level of having a job and being competent at it (Tackler, Frigate/Cruiser killer in missions, salvager etc) and then explain the grind of learning. ------ Sig -------
Selling unique, one off web design, Link |
sartorii
Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.25 09:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
Am I going to train Medium Autocannon Specialization to 5 just for the "elite" certificate?
Then you dont deserve the "Elite" title. 2% is life and death in Eve, while yes there are better uses of your time in an other Spec than that last 2% you are not 'Elite' until you have it.
"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic] |
Doctor Penguin
Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:04:00 -
[24]
As a newbie, they're INCREDIBLY helpful.
I hear people complaining about Core Competency. I don't know about you veterans, but having a "train these skills, it will make you better all around" is something that I relish in game. Once I'm done training Core Competency to basic (which is just Targeting Lvl 4, about a day left on that!) I'll be going back to my Learning skills with a smile on my face, knowing that I've accomplished something.
Two thumbs up, CCP! ________________________________________________
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Nhaz
Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:29:00 -
[25]
My two cents. for the noobies out there.
Don't use the certificates to plan for ships.
They are a very vague and general guideline at best and in alot of cases telling you to train things that are irrelevant to the ship you are flying.
Which is a waste of training time. If you are a noobie, and are looking for info on what you should be training. Find a veteran in what ever you are trying to do. talk to them.
My recommendation to CCP is to go over every certificate and Think a tad more about what the player wants info on. taking a previous example.
a drake.
It needs shield skills missile skills navigation skills. it does not need energy grid upgrades 5.
Ind this is kind of where I see the certificates breaking down for info. They are trying to cover too much under one certificate.
I believe the problem can be fixed by the certificates being More specific.
Like Certificate for drakes for example. Under that certificate you have a sub list of the various things you need to fly a drake the sum of those skills adds up to how well you are rated on the Drake certificate.
I believe that would solve the confusion factor. _____________________________________________
It's NOT paranoia, If they REALLY ARE out to get you! |
Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:52:00 -
[26]
Geez people. This is the first iteration of the concept.
My guess is that the certificates were generated by scripts to a lerge degree and then tweaked somewhat.
After all there is a freakish number of skills and an insane number of combinations with ships and mods to consider. It's not that CCP is clueless - it just is quite complicated to get this right. And part of getting it right is getting it out in this half-decent condition and have a large number of experienced eyes look at it and comment on it.
They obviously need further tweaking. The concept is fine - the implementation needs some improvement.
I'm sure one of the next interim patches will contain some certificate improvements.
EVE is a beast. It's freedom and possibilities make it great - but also non-trivial to control it and design for it. Like most new features it will take a few iterations to get the details right. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Karille
Gallente Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.25 10:53:00 -
[27]
It's not as bad as you're making it seem Nhaz. It's not like it's telling you to train astrogeology 5 to fly a drake. Energy Grid upgrades affects the cpu need of the inevitable power diagnostic units on the drake. So it does in fact serve a purpose.
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