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Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:03:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 26/11/2008 19:06:08
Originally by: daisy dook
To be assured that you gain the benefit from having the correct racial at all times (this is against an individual ship) then you need one of each, unless you devote 4 slots (one to each racial) then you can't be sure of having the correct racial jammer and therefore each slot is worth 1/4 of a correct racial.
Lets try some basic maths. Best named racial ECM has a strength of 3.6 (for the correct racial) Best named racial ECM has a strength of 1.2 (for an incorrect racial) Best named multi ECM has a strength of 2.4
So taking strength 2.4 as base line and doing a simple addition to deteremine 'combined effective strength': 3 best named multi's have a value of 3x(2.4/2.4) or 3 1 best name on racial and 2 best named off racials have a value of (3.6/2.4) + 2x (1.2/2.4) or 2.5
We can see that the 3 multi's have a 'combined effective strength' 20% greater than the 1 correct racial and 2 off racials.
You're correct in that I remembered the cutoff point slightly wrong, but your basic math fails aswell since the jammers aren't additive. If we take those 1.2/2.4/3.6 jammers against 10 sensor strength, 'basic math' shows us that 1correct + 1 wrong is slightly better than 2x multi (44% vs 42% chance to jam) but 1correct + 2 wrong is slightly worse than 3x multi (50% vs 56%). Obviously not quite 20% difference though.
Quote:
So my point still stands that to use a range greater than 150km then we have to consider mid-slot to be a quarter of a module.
More like half a module. The average jam strength of a racial, assuming equal probability for each target race and only one jammer, is exactly half of the correct racial. (1 chance to score max jam strength, 3 chances to score one third strength). But, obviously this still doesn't take into account the fact that you typically have 1-2 of each racial available, and generally have an assortment of races to target, which means usually you'll end up with 2-3 combinations of 1right and 1-2wrong racials on each, which in turn means you'll most of the time be around the multispec effectiveness or better, just with more range. It's actually pretty rare that you'll end up worse than with multis, and the most common cases (only 1 target or 2 targets of same race) it doesn't usually matter since you're going to win anyway.
And, there's certain other fringe benefits, like if you happen to have 1 minmatar racial around, you can be certain that the vaga isn't going to bother you, but if you only have multis, you're gambling your ship even if you put two on it etc.
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Eluhaf
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:02:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Eluhaf on 26/11/2008 21:04:18 the Falcon is the only cloaky recon that is worth anything in a gang above 5 ships these days. The nerf to web strengths took the rapier off the list, as its really only useful in situations where you already out number the other side. Pilgrim's only marginal role is to gank solo ratters, and the Arazu is totally without a role (look at max range of damps and you see why).
Falcon is better than Rook. That means in a larger gang situation there are really no strong combat recons, the huginn and curse at best are useful anti-frig platforms.
For 1v1 and small gangs there is greater flexibility of course and the curse, rapier, huggin all are viable (along with the falcon) where the arazu, lachesis and pilgrim are still very weak.
Ultimately its the Falcon's range capabilites that make it so much stronger than the rest of the recons, and frankly over powered at the moment. Make it engage somewhere between 60 and 100km and the balance between the recons would start to work out. All the other recons need to engage at range that exposes them to risk, no reason why the Falcon should be exempt. And don't claim that BS about 150KM damps, or 200Km 3xECCM snipers you EFT warriors.
And yes I do fit a 1600mm plate to my falcon, its only marginally lowers the ECM power, but drastically improves survivability. In a larger gang you can even engage under sentries for a brief period of time with it fitted.
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D'Argentus
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:17:00 -
[123]
We should do that once we have weapons stacking nerf. Its unfair that firing all 8 of my turrets does as much damage individually as firing one does.
ECM is the weapon of the ECM ships. If you were to change it like above, you'd actually have to give them a tank and gank.
I like this idea.......if you guys haven't figured out how to counter Falcons by now you should try playing WOW.
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:25:00 -
[124]
My max-skilled Falcon pilot was out tooling around with a small gang and got in a fight.
The enemy had superior numbers, and a BB.
That BB jammed my Falcon 3 times in the fight! Doesn't that make the BB overpowered??? Nerf the BB!
The enemy fleet died, the BB warped off never having been touched. 10 Minutes later we chased the remnants down in their new ships and got in another fight. That same BB jammed me again (once), then got targeted and warped off on fire.
So, because he could out-jam my Falcon shouldn't that make him overpowered? Nerf him, nerf him! He could jam me from 140km!
In another fight, my pilot was flying a Tempest against a Rook. I knew the rook was coming and slapped two ECCM on board. How many times did he jam me? Dunno, he flashed red, I locked, and 6 seconds later he was a wreck.
Folks complaining about ECCM should check out your sensor type, M'kay? Ladar won't work when you're flying Gallente, M'kay? Or go out and buy my Omni II's. Oh, and find you a drake or some other tank that no one shoots and have them toss some remote ECCM on you (I think they provide 120% of your base str?).
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:32:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Stalina 8.) hope he does not permajam you because eccm doesn't help at all
Hey if this is the case then you should probably bug report it rather then posting in nerf threads.
Just saying.
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Leya Marcsson
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Posted - 2008.11.28 01:12:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Leya Marcsson on 28/11/2008 01:13:18 hm
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Richard Gear
Sirkus Maximus
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Posted - 2008.11.28 02:03:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus As the title says. I think that this will solve the problems associated with ECM.
What problem?
Just becasue a few people are whining doesn't mean there is a problem.
What you're looking for is already in game: 1) ECCM (which was already boosted massively in the last ECM nerf) 2) Projected ECCM (yes, this only makes sens if in a gang, but so does flying a Falcon as for solo work it is useless) 3) .... 4) Profit
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Ambrosious Martin
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2008.11.28 02:22:00 -
[128]
The problem with ECM isnt the falcon... ECM and the falcon have been this effective since Revelations, it just took folks nearly a year to figure out how effective they are.
IMO the best solution to ECM is to remove the sub-racial strength. Make Ladar jammers good for only jamming minmatar. Make Radar jammers good for only jamming amarr. Let multispec jammers be used for being able to jam anyone.
At the moment a ladar jammer has lets say 3.0 strength to Ladar sensors, and a 1.5 strenght to all other sensor types... Allowing an ECM pilot to use his ladar jammers to potentionally jam a gallante or caldari ship.. This is what makes it over powered.
Take that away and it will force the ECM pilot to make a harder decision and either fit for all types of encounters(use multispec) or fit for specific ships types, If they fit for specific racials, and something else on the field is what they dont have then they have more to fear.
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Dominic Vernius
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Posted - 2008.11.28 02:31:00 -
[129]
VERY GOOD GET RID OF THIS CANNY FIGHT ****
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2008.11.28 02:47:00 -
[130]
We fly with 1-2 ECCM's standard on BS's but it is nowhere near as important as having our own Falcon pilot online. We used to fit one ECCM but found it ineffective (1 Falcon jamming 3 BS's out of the fight) and now fit 2 most of the time. With 2 fitted so far we are having ~1.5 BS's jammed out of the fight per falcon plus re-lock time. Yes we overheat our ECCM. ECCM helps but it is not the answer.
It is hard to put together a decent small gang with two ECCM in anyone's mid who intends to participate in anything more than a few moments of the combat.
I would like to remind people the Falcon is not only uber it is an uber cloaker. I know you know but people don't seem to give this the weight it deserves. Being an "i win" button and a cloaker is remarkably nasty.
As many people have said the answer in small gang combat to Falcons is not ECCM or the a 200+ k sniper - it is your own the Falcon. Oh the joy of gangs consisting of a tacklers or two, BS's setup with ECCM to cope with their Falcons, and our Falcons. An entire gang set-up built around Falcons because that is now the nature of low sec fights.
Abuse Falcons to the max people as it is the best way to cope and encourage some sanity. Sadly it also leads to less small gang combat.
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.28 04:15:00 -
[131]
Just an anecdotal thought I had concerning this subject.
How many people have dedicated Arazu alts? Pilgrim alts? Rapier alts?
Exactly. Pretty much nobody, sans maybe the rapier.
Again, my opinion is ECM is fine, just give ECCM a boost as a better counter. If I'm giving up tanking/dps slots to counter one single threat, it needs to be more effective.
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Poena Loveless
Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.29 23:39:00 -
[132]
While were are on the ALL EWAR NEEDS A COUNTER thing.
give us a mod that reduces webbing and reducing you sig
-OR-
we could all just play the game and realize that all ewar is different, like the fact that minmatar ewar (target painting) is the only one that neither directly nor indirrectly reduces incoming damage.
ECM has disadvantages that, imho, far out weigh its range advantage. Just ask a falcon pilot why they lost their last 5 falcons, 90% will say "I missed a jam"
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KingDiomedes
Caldari Shadow Company Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.30 02:42:00 -
[133]
i see its all non caldari that are whinging about ecm ffs this is our only decent ship, missiles suck even more now than they used to, our ships cant solo pvp as they cant tank and have webs/points on at same time, our dps missiles cant hit **** and when they eventually do hit they only scratch the ship now, so why dont u all back off the one decent ship we have and start the topic "Caldari have been nerfed into subbmission lets give them some more dps"
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.11.30 07:15:00 -
[134]
Quote: Originally by: cianide pro
Originally by: Stalina.
I really would like a Curse with 5 medium neutralizers, 5 tracking disruptors and 7k armor and an mwd.
chance based off-course Wink
At 100km then. At least of course.
FYI
If you want you can get a Curse with MWD, 5 tracking disruptors, 5 medium neutralizers and 7k armor.
And your trackingdisruptors would have 101km optimal....
Nothing stopping your from fitting it.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.11.30 07:56:00 -
[135]
People are talking like 200km is the default range of the jammers, it`s not.
T2 Racial on a falcon is 162km T2 Multispec is 108km
To get 150km on multis and 200km+ on racial you need to start adding rigs...
Anyway, everybody who is asking for a nerf on ECM is refeering to the falcon, at the same time they are saying, the falcon is not the problem
If you are asking for a stacking nerf on something that is already chancebased, you are also saying that we need to make all other E-war chancebased and stacking nerfed...
Neuts: Make chancebased and stacking nerfed. tracking disruptors: Chancebased Damp: Chancebased
and so on.
And there are 2 kinds of people using ECCM.
1: The ones who thinks putting on a ECCM fixes everything (not checking if it`s the correct racial one and actually thinks it will save him if he is alone versus a falcon that only need to focus on him)
2: The ones who know how it work and acutally utilize them very well in gangmechanics.
I have lost count on how many times I have heard people complaining about their ECCM not working, just to find out that they forgot to activate their ECCM, or actually fitted the wrong one.
Then on the other side I have met people who have used their ECCM very effectively. Had a domi pilot jump into a small camp we had, we had 1 falcon and 1 widow trying to jam him, we didnt get one single activation. He tanked the damage, killed the tackler while slowboating back to the gate and then jumped out.
ECCM was and should never be a 100% module against ECM. It works lke a hardener that you put on sheild/armor. It will make you more resistent, but never immune.
Now, imagine if ECM got stackingnerfed on top of the chancebased one, would it still be viable to fly scorps, bb, widow?
In my opinion, maybe, but not with ECM fitted. Not when your not even able to neutralize one single target with a high chance of success. Would be better off fitting damps then...
And if someone is complaining about a dedicated ECM ship keeping 1.5 of their BS out of the fight when they have ECCM fitted needs to really come up with a new function for the ECM ships if they feel that is overpowered...
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.30 08:02:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 30/11/2008 08:04:33 I woudl like to see scramblers and disruptors to be chance based and stacking nerfed , oh and their optimal is too good on a gate, lets divide it to half.
Oh and those ppl who dont use eccm ,because anything lowers the dps or ehp graph in eft is a NONO.
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Alt altski
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Posted - 2008.11.30 12:14:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Maverick 52
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Lowering the range of Falcons and other ECM ships while retaining their strength only nerfs pirates, as they won't be able to use them outside of sentry range, while all others will have access to powerful ECM ships to use against them while operating inside sentry range.
No, it doesn't. It forces the falcon to use its ewar at a range where a wider variety of ships are capable of engaging it.
Nerf for falcon pilots regardless of pirate status.
Yeah other recons cant engage in sentry range either ... you can use scorpion for that.
Imo the best balance for ecm would be nerfing the range then falcon pilots would have to fit some sort of other defense vrs drones therefore reducing jamming power anyway.
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Alt altski
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Posted - 2008.11.30 12:15:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Eluhaf Edited by: Eluhaf on 26/11/2008 21:04:18 the Falcon is the only cloaky recon that is worth anything in a gang above 5 ships these days. The nerf to web strengths took the rapier off the list, as its really only useful in situations where you already out number the other side. Pilgrim's only marginal role is to gank solo ratters, and the Arazu is totally without a role (look at max range of damps and you see why).
Actually arazu can solo ratters too just takes longer and if they have a sensor booster your ****ed.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.30 14:28:00 -
[139]
Add a +% sigradius to active ECM modules. If you are not being actively jammed sensors love lots of EM traffic.
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