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Oveur
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:17:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert How about Dev's just declare it an exploit and be done with it?
It's a crap tactic used by crap gamers.
Where would you draw the line? Is it enough that one guy is logged off, then logs in and helps his friend? How about 3? Would it have to be 3 frigates or 3 battleships? Does it maybe need to be 10? Or should it be relative to the force attacked?
Strengthening the log-off and log-on is a much better approach, and some Ideas here like less cap combined with a small delay would help this issue far more than me saying "SPLOIT".
Like I also said, using any means to circumvent the current rules (with other exploits or specific workarounds) is of course an exploit.
There is no simple fix to this, ghosting is the best "simple" suggestion here to help someone to identify IF there is a possibility of getting ganked, but there are so many people that log of in space that places like U-Q or other hotspots would look like a gankfest waiting to happen 24/7.
Permaships in itself needs tons of supporting changes to work, like mentioned by Bob, this increases the vulnerability of ships by large amounts compared to today. _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Oveur
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:17:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert How about Dev's just declare it an exploit and be done with it?
It's a crap tactic used by crap gamers.
Where would you draw the line? Is it enough that one guy is logged off, then logs in and helps his friend? How about 3? Would it have to be 3 frigates or 3 battleships? Does it maybe need to be 10? Or should it be relative to the force attacked?
Strengthening the log-off and log-on is a much better approach, and some Ideas here like less cap combined with a small delay would help this issue far more than me saying "SPLOIT".
Like I also said, using any means to circumvent the current rules (with other exploits or specific workarounds) is of course an exploit.
There is no simple fix to this, ghosting is the best "simple" suggestion here to help someone to identify IF there is a possibility of getting ganked, but there are so many people that log of in space that places like U-Q or other hotspots would look like a gankfest waiting to happen 24/7.
Permaships in itself needs tons of supporting changes to work, like mentioned by Bob, this increases the vulnerability of ships by large amounts compared to today. _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:21:00 -
[93]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 12/07/2004 19:23:25 Oveur, whats wrong with a 2-5 minute timer to login once you are cloaked? There's no danger to the pilot in that situation, it stops log on ganks, and encourages people to use stations
The solution doesn't have to be complex and months away
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:21:00 -
[94]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 12/07/2004 19:23:25 Oveur, whats wrong with a 2-5 minute timer to login once you are cloaked? There's no danger to the pilot in that situation, it stops log on ganks, and encourages people to use stations
The solution doesn't have to be complex and months away
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Oveur
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:23:00 -
[95]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 12/07/2004 19:23:25 Oveur, whats wrong with a 2-5 minute timer to login once you are cloaked? There's no danger to the pilot in that situation, it stops log on ganks, and encourages people to use stations
The solution doesn't have to be complex and months away
Originally by: Oveur Strengthening the log-off and log-on is a much better approach, and some Ideas here like less cap combined with a small delay would help this issue far more than me saying "SPLOIT".
I think we are talking about the same thing, I should have made it more clear ... or are you referring to something else? _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Oveur
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:23:00 -
[96]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 12/07/2004 19:23:25 Oveur, whats wrong with a 2-5 minute timer to login once you are cloaked? There's no danger to the pilot in that situation, it stops log on ganks, and encourages people to use stations
The solution doesn't have to be complex and months away
Originally by: Oveur Strengthening the log-off and log-on is a much better approach, and some Ideas here like less cap combined with a small delay would help this issue far more than me saying "SPLOIT".
I think we are talking about the same thing, I should have made it more clear ... or are you referring to something else? _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:24:00 -
[97]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 12/07/2004 19:31:35 Well, you said there's no simple solution to this, which makes me think you're considering combining it with a host of other changes that would take weeks of debate. Was just wondering what are the major issues that keep a hotfix like that happening
Anyway, thanks for looking into this
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:24:00 -
[98]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 12/07/2004 19:31:35 Well, you said there's no simple solution to this, which makes me think you're considering combining it with a host of other changes that would take weeks of debate. Was just wondering what are the major issues that keep a hotfix like that happening
Anyway, thanks for looking into this
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SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:25:00 -
[99]
Edited by: SlightlyMad on 12/07/2004 19:29:16 There just need to be a timer between when you log in to when you can target anything
Simple as that.
You'd be allowed to travel and all. Its just that you can't fight.
This is not a coffee break game. Especially not when it comes to fighting. A couple of minutes lag on targetting is all that would be needed.
This weekend, some friends of mine got a few ships ganked by some COWerdly enemies using just this tactic. Its a shame it is allowed. And a shame that people think its an ok tactic just because its not considered exploitish anymore * -"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:25:00 -
[100]
Edited by: SlightlyMad on 12/07/2004 19:29:16 There just need to be a timer between when you log in to when you can target anything
Simple as that.
You'd be allowed to travel and all. Its just that you can't fight.
This is not a coffee break game. Especially not when it comes to fighting. A couple of minutes lag on targetting is all that would be needed.
This weekend, some friends of mine got a few ships ganked by some COWerdly enemies using just this tactic. Its a shame it is allowed. And a shame that people think its an ok tactic just because its not considered exploitish anymore * -"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
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Oveur
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:30:00 -
[101]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan Well, you said there's no simple solution to this, which makes me think you're considering combining it with a host of other changes that would take weeks of debate.
It still enables you to hide a fleet that would suddenly appear within a period of minutes.
The combo of less cap/timer would stop the tactical advantage, not the strategic advantage. The not-being-able-to-target anyone sounds ok at first too. _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Oveur
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:30:00 -
[102]
Originally by: BobGhengisKhan Well, you said there's no simple solution to this, which makes me think you're considering combining it with a host of other changes that would take weeks of debate.
It still enables you to hide a fleet that would suddenly appear within a period of minutes.
The combo of less cap/timer would stop the tactical advantage, not the strategic advantage. The not-being-able-to-target anyone sounds ok at first too. _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:30:00 -
[103]
Quote: There just need to be a timer between when you log in to when you can target anything
agreed apart from NPC, from CTD.
CA have already started to rinse and repeat login traps already. "Teh lord of Nonni"
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:30:00 -
[104]
Quote: There just need to be a timer between when you log in to when you can target anything
agreed apart from NPC, from CTD.
CA have already started to rinse and repeat login traps already. "Teh lord of Nonni"
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Techilles
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:37:00 -
[105]
btw, Oveur i know a way to more easily spot the login traps..
usually the way a login trap is run, is that everyone except the bait logs off at the baiting spot(or somewhere else possible) then log back in and sit at the char selection screen and wait til enemy engage, then activate char as soon as prey swallows the bait..
pls nerf the the part where ppl wait at char selection screen, put a 1min timeout timer on it or something if you dont activate char you get loged out again or so. beaining ppl woudl have to wait at login screen etc.. takes more time to login and also, sometimes it just takes ages to get past login screen, so could even make log off traps rather risky if only half your fleet shows up
oh and how it is now, i still think calling it an exploit is better than not to, even if there is probs draving the line
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Techilles
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:37:00 -
[106]
btw, Oveur i know a way to more easily spot the login traps..
usually the way a login trap is run, is that everyone except the bait logs off at the baiting spot(or somewhere else possible) then log back in and sit at the char selection screen and wait til enemy engage, then activate char as soon as prey swallows the bait..
pls nerf the the part where ppl wait at char selection screen, put a 1min timeout timer on it or something if you dont activate char you get loged out again or so. beaining ppl woudl have to wait at login screen etc.. takes more time to login and also, sometimes it just takes ages to get past login screen, so could even make log off traps rather risky if only half your fleet shows up
oh and how it is now, i still think calling it an exploit is better than not to, even if there is probs draving the line
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Zarks
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:52:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Idea:
Logging off in space completely zeroes your capacitor so that when you next log in you have no capacitor.
To avoid people using cap boosters or energy transfer methods, you can make it so that your cap must recharge naturally or else your capacitor system suffers a catastrophic failure (i.e it returns to zero if boosters/transfer are used).
I like Joshuas idea
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Zarks
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Posted - 2004.07.12 19:52:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Idea:
Logging off in space completely zeroes your capacitor so that when you next log in you have no capacitor.
To avoid people using cap boosters or energy transfer methods, you can make it so that your cap must recharge naturally or else your capacitor system suffers a catastrophic failure (i.e it returns to zero if boosters/transfer are used).
I like Joshuas idea
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Dukath
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:06:00 -
[109]
The problem here is finding a balance between people who 'exploit' the log out thing and people who actually really crash (which unfortunately does happen a lot). Now the last thing i want is when i crash and log back in during a fleet battle to arrive with no cap, unable to target anyone and unable to use any modules for 3 minutes.
Here is what I would like. 1) ships stay in space. However when you log off your ship powers down and becomes much harder to scan. (will only show up on scanner if you are within 1 million km or show up on the long range scanner for a special ops frigate with its special scanners). 2) when you log in your ship powers up again, possible generating an energy burst detectable by special ops frigs or maybe even all ships. 3) local chat exists but the member list is removed. and no more messages about people jumping in. If you talk then people see who is talking, that should be it.
This i feel will provide a good balance between all sides. Powered down ships will be much harder to track down than right now. (besides peoples safespots get found so easily because they don't make an effort making them, a good safespot won't be tracked down for at least 7 hours). You'd still be able to find logged off ships in space with considerable effort so that logging off all the time still has a reasonable risk.
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Dukath
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:06:00 -
[110]
The problem here is finding a balance between people who 'exploit' the log out thing and people who actually really crash (which unfortunately does happen a lot). Now the last thing i want is when i crash and log back in during a fleet battle to arrive with no cap, unable to target anyone and unable to use any modules for 3 minutes.
Here is what I would like. 1) ships stay in space. However when you log off your ship powers down and becomes much harder to scan. (will only show up on scanner if you are within 1 million km or show up on the long range scanner for a special ops frigate with its special scanners). 2) when you log in your ship powers up again, possible generating an energy burst detectable by special ops frigs or maybe even all ships. 3) local chat exists but the member list is removed. and no more messages about people jumping in. If you talk then people see who is talking, that should be it.
This i feel will provide a good balance between all sides. Powered down ships will be much harder to track down than right now. (besides peoples safespots get found so easily because they don't make an effort making them, a good safespot won't be tracked down for at least 7 hours). You'd still be able to find logged off ships in space with considerable effort so that logging off all the time still has a reasonable risk.
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:20:00 -
[111]
I think best solution is: 1. a) The cloaking timer should be set to approx. 5 minutes. b) If you relog within the 5 minutes, then you will warp back to your last position and can participate in pvp battles without a problem. But if you log in after the 5 minutes when your ship is already cloaked, then you should not be able to target player ships for 5 minutes.
OR:
2. Add a new option to the map that shows all ships that are currently in space (and maybe the docked ones) but offline. It would work just like the option to show your corp members in space which works on offline members aswell.
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2004.07.12 20:20:00 -
[112]
I think best solution is: 1. a) The cloaking timer should be set to approx. 5 minutes. b) If you relog within the 5 minutes, then you will warp back to your last position and can participate in pvp battles without a problem. But if you log in after the 5 minutes when your ship is already cloaked, then you should not be able to target player ships for 5 minutes.
OR:
2. Add a new option to the map that shows all ships that are currently in space (and maybe the docked ones) but offline. It would work just like the option to show your corp members in space which works on offline members aswell.
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:27:00 -
[113]
I dont understand one thing.
Since this was an exploit before ,and we all agree its uber lame why not keep it as exploit?
At one point everybody learned its an expoit and stopped using this , at least i think so no posts on forums.
Why have you changed its not an exploit now???Whats the aim>?
Its uber lame, should be an exploit and this tactic should die forgotten by everybody.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:27:00 -
[114]
I dont understand one thing.
Since this was an exploit before ,and we all agree its uber lame why not keep it as exploit?
At one point everybody learned its an expoit and stopped using this , at least i think so no posts on forums.
Why have you changed its not an exploit now???Whats the aim>?
Its uber lame, should be an exploit and this tactic should die forgotten by everybody.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:40:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Idea:
Logging off in space completely zeroes your capacitor so that when you next log in you have no capacitor.
To avoid people using cap boosters or energy transfer methods, you can make it so that your cap must recharge naturally or else your capacitor system suffers a catastrophic failure (i.e it returns to zero if boosters/transfer are used).
Sounds good or a time in wich you cant target( 2 minutes for example).
And yes bad luck for those who crash or got booted by eve servers, at least you will have your ship safe, but you cant fight for some time after logging back , i think thats not that bad.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:40:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Idea:
Logging off in space completely zeroes your capacitor so that when you next log in you have no capacitor.
To avoid people using cap boosters or energy transfer methods, you can make it so that your cap must recharge naturally or else your capacitor system suffers a catastrophic failure (i.e it returns to zero if boosters/transfer are used).
Sounds good or a time in wich you cant target( 2 minutes for example).
And yes bad luck for those who crash or got booted by eve servers, at least you will have your ship safe, but you cant fight for some time after logging back , i think thats not that bad.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
The1
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:59:00 -
[117]
Why not just say there is a 120 second delay on any offensive action. To say you can't target would be unfair in such cases as accidental log off's and CTD's where you may need to defend yourself when coming back into the game. If you are attacked you may defend yourself immidately, otherwise you have a 120 second delay on all offensive actions. All the while you are de-cloaked and in local for everyone to see.
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The1
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Posted - 2004.07.12 21:59:00 -
[118]
Why not just say there is a 120 second delay on any offensive action. To say you can't target would be unfair in such cases as accidental log off's and CTD's where you may need to defend yourself when coming back into the game. If you are attacked you may defend yourself immidately, otherwise you have a 120 second delay on all offensive actions. All the while you are de-cloaked and in local for everyone to see.
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finak
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:15:00 -
[119]
Edited by: finak on 12/07/2004 22:16:53
Originally by: SwitchBl4d3
Quote: There just need to be a timer between when you log in to when you can target anything
agreed apart from NPC, from CTD.
CA have already started to rinse and repeat login traps already.
what SwitchBl4d3 also fails to say is that others are also using this "valid tatic" in CA space, i.e. his own corp.
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finak
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:15:00 -
[120]
Edited by: finak on 12/07/2004 22:16:53
Originally by: SwitchBl4d3
Quote: There just need to be a timer between when you log in to when you can target anything
agreed apart from NPC, from CTD.
CA have already started to rinse and repeat login traps already.
what SwitchBl4d3 also fails to say is that others are also using this "valid tatic" in CA space, i.e. his own corp.
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