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Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:13:00 -
[1]
Just wondering what the logic was/is behind marauders having weak sensor strength, my main guess is that it was to keep them out of the pvp arena(although debatable) as they are mostly designed for pve, while this is the case their is no logical explanation why the lastest (T2) cutting edge technology would suffer from a low sensor strength which resembles that of a cruiser (it should be higher if anything).
There are various types of electronic warfare, so why make them weak to sensor jamming? Why not make them suffer from a worse tracking debuff from a tracking disruptor? Or make them more vulnerable to being webbed? They should basically put in the description "a ship capable of delivering and withstanding damage but is vulnerable to caldari ships" or maybe stamp "falcon fodder" onto it.
Discuss
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Tippia
Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:19:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Nebulous There are various types of electronic warfare, so why make them weak to sensor jamming? […] They should basically put in the description "a ship capable of delivering and withstanding damage but is vulnerable to caldari ships" or maybe stamp "falcon fodder" onto it.
No, no. You've got it the wrong way. It should say "a ship capable of delivering and withstanding damage but is vulnerable even against non-caldari ships." No need to train for Falcon for those — just strap a T1 jammer on your n00bship…
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Gnomes Rock
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tippia No, no. You've got it the wrong way. It should say "a ship capable of delivering and withstanding damage but is vulnerable even against non-caldari ships." No need to train for Falcon for those ù just strap a T1 jammer on your n00bshipà
Nono, a flight of small ECM drones should do the trick.
To the OP; it's because prior to the web nerf the Marauders bonuses to web ammount would make it overpowered in any PvP situation otherwise. (i'm looking at you here, Kronos) |
Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Gnomes Rock To the OP; it's because prior to the web nerf the Marauders bonuses to web ammount would make it overpowered in any PvP situation otherwise. (i'm looking at you here, Kronos)
Hehe i can fly a Kronos but I have got a Golem believe it or not, which has no web bonus.
Saying it is weak to caldari may be a bit unfair but people have to appreciate that it's the main EWAR of that race, can you imagine the outrage if they made a ship that gets webbed for double that a normal ship does (biased to minmatar), or suffers twice the amount of energy drain from neuts (biased to amarr).
I guess a solution would be to make it weak to certain EWAR based on the racial spec of the marauder? (prefer no abnormal weakness to EWAR at all though to be honest)
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.12.03 22:53:00 -
[5]
Marauders have drawbacks enough, and 2 trackingdisrupter on a gun marauder wll shut him down, so no worries. -
Boosters and PirateProfessions
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.04 00:32:00 -
[6]
CCP don't know how to balance their game. Try as they might, people use Marauders for PVP, despite CCP's best efforts to ruin them for the purpose. Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR). And low sensor strength on a ship with a large sig radius? That just screams "PROBE ME." Pun intended.
Back at the ranch... Black Ops ships are horrible at PVP and just about everything else. GG CCP.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Veritech knight
Envoy Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.04 00:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR)..
"just horrible" is pushing it a bit too much. marauders are the king of missioning, period. you'll never get a dominix up to even close to the dps of a marauder. CNRs were closer but still not that great without the tractor bonus.
imho, of course.
to the OP: RP wise, yeah doesnt make much sense for the sensors, I agree. vk
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Dantes Revenge
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.04 02:08:00 -
[8]
Don't people fit sensor boosters any more for PVP then or has this been overshadowed by nerfs of other mods requiring you to forego the booster for something else?
-- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.04 03:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Veritech knight
Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR)..
"just horrible" is pushing it a bit too much. marauders are the king of missioning, period. you'll never get a dominix up to even close to the dps of a marauder. CNRs were closer but still not that great without the tractor bonus.
imho, of course.
to the OP: RP wise, yeah doesnt make much sense for the sensors, I agree. vk
The effective performance of my max skilled Kronos compared to my max skilled Dominix for running missions is actually LESS under normal use.
DPS is useless when you can't actually apply it to a target, or a large percentage of targets. The Dominix with sentry drones has almost as much effective DPS as a Kronos at long range, and at shorter ranges has more DPS due to the amount of firepower able to be applied to small targets through bonused light drones.
The Dominix can perma tank any L4 in the game, with full aggro, for less cost than a Kronos. Did I mention that the Dominix is WAY harder to probe out given it's better sensor strength/sig radius ratio? And it's cheaper. And fully insurable (I don't insure mine, but it is none the less).
There is no real reason to choose the Kronos over the Dominix, other than to just have something different. And when you factor in skillpoint requirements, cost of ownership (ammunition cost) there is even LESS of a reason to use the Kronos in PVE.
The Vargur (I have one) is an absolute joke. The Golem is pretty darn awesome, and the Paladin works pretty good as well. The Kronos sucks for PVE, and is the only workable blaster ship left for PVP. Too bad it has horrible lock time and lousy sensor strength. If those two things were fixed, I'd never fly anything else.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Johann Callasan
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Posted - 2008.12.04 04:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nebulous Just wondering what the logic was/is behind marauders having weak sensor strength, my main guess is that it was to keep them out of the pvp arena(although debatable) as they are mostly designed for pve, while this is the case their is no logical explanation why the lastest (T2) cutting edge technology would suffer from a low sensor strength which resembles that of a cruiser (it should be higher if anything).
There are various types of electronic warfare, so why make them weak to sensor jamming? Why not make them suffer from a worse tracking debuff from a tracking disruptor? Or make them more vulnerable to being webbed? They should basically put in the description "a ship capable of delivering and withstanding damage but is vulnerable to caldari ships" or maybe stamp "falcon fodder" onto it.
Discuss
-------------------
Some thoughts:
LOLRP reason: Marauders are designed to operate alone behind enemy lines WIHOUT stealth technology; having strong sensors would make the ship FAR more trackable - it's why you don't put searchlights on a PT boat
Real reason: Blaance issues. marauders have bonuses that focus on damage - give them a high enough sensor strength to where jammers have a "normal" chance of working and they'd be the kings of PvP. Since NOTHING in a game can be too uber, there has to be some downside to using a particular item - the downside for the Marauders' defensive and offensive strength is weaker sensors, making them more prone to jamming.
One of the earlier issues with missileboats for PvE was the fact that their range and damage, plus immunity to everything save jammers and neuts (and on a passive Drake, ONLY jammers) made 'em overpowered. With the missile nerf, they're now more in line with turret ships by sharing a turret ship's weakness - size of weapon vs. size of target.
Marauders balance in a different way.
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E Vile
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Posted - 2008.12.04 04:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Veritech knight
Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR)..
"just horrible" is pushing it a bit too much. marauders are the king of missioning, period. you'll never get a dominix up to even close to the dps of a marauder. CNRs were closer but still not that great without the tractor bonus.
imho, of course.
to the OP: RP wise, yeah doesnt make much sense for the sensors, I agree. vk
The effective performance of my max skilled Kronos compared to my max skilled Dominix for running missions is actually LESS under normal use.
DPS is useless when you can't actually apply it to a target, or a large percentage of targets. The Dominix with sentry drones has almost as much effective DPS as a Kronos at long range, and at shorter ranges has more DPS due to the amount of firepower able to be applied to small targets through bonused light drones.
The Dominix can perma tank any L4 in the game, with full aggro, for less cost than a Kronos. Did I mention that the Dominix is WAY harder to probe out given it's better sensor strength/sig radius ratio? And it's cheaper. And fully insurable (I don't insure mine, but it is none the less).
There is no real reason to choose the Kronos over the Dominix, other than to just have something different. And when you factor in skillpoint requirements, cost of ownership (ammunition cost) there is even LESS of a reason to use the Kronos in PVE.
The Vargur (I have one) is an absolute joke. The Golem is pretty darn awesome, and the Paladin works pretty good as well. The Kronos sucks for PVE, and is the only workable blaster ship left for PVP. Too bad it has horrible lock time and lousy sensor strength. If those two things were fixed, I'd never fly anything else.
I would rather run lvl 4's in a Nighthawk then any BS or Marauder. It knocks out lvl 4's fast. I can do Enemies Abound 5/5 and have breaks between each spawn.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2008.12.04 04:37:00 -
[12]
I was pretty sure it had something to do with how easy it is to probe out a ship. Can't remember which way it goes, but think lower sensor strength makes the ship easier to find.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.04 05:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Nebulous
Originally by: Gnomes Rock To the OP; it's because prior to the web nerf the Marauders bonuses to web ammount would make it overpowered in any PvP situation otherwise. (i'm looking at you here, Kronos)
Hehe i can fly a Kronos but I have got a Golem believe it or not, which has no web bonus.
Saying it is weak to caldari may be a bit unfair but people have to appreciate that it's the main EWAR of that race, can you imagine the outrage if they made a ship that gets webbed for double that a normal ship does (biased to minmatar), or suffers twice the amount of energy drain from neuts (biased to amarr).
I guess a solution would be to make it weak to certain EWAR based on the racial spec of the marauder? (prefer no abnormal weakness to EWAR at all though to be honest)
=s does seem a buff to caldari ewar to make marauders main weakness be ecm. I find it kinda rediculous how much caldari ew outperforms other races ew.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.04 05:39:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Nebulous on 04/12/2008 05:39:23
Originally by: Johann Callasan Since NOTHING in a game can be too uber.
Carriers? Mother ships?
Originally by: Johann Callasan give them a high enough sensor strength to where jammers have a "normal" chance of working and they'd be the kings of PvP
Vs what would they become kings of pvp? A solo T1 BS maybe? Which is fair enough, you would expect a HAC to beat a T1 cruiser or a command ship to beat a T1 BC.
Lets imagine the marauder had high sensor strength and give it a good T2 fit, your looking at around 800-1000 mil plus a ****ty insurance payout if you pop, now take two well fitted T1 BS's 500 mil max to buy and fit out to a high standard of pvp plus a decent insurance payout, now put the two T1 BS's against the marauder, my money would be on the two T1 BS's anytime. How that would make it OP I don't know. A carrier doesnt cost much more to buy and fit than a a marauder these days and takes some serious hardware to take one down, definately much harder than a marauder.
Still think people are missing the point as well, ECM is caldari EWAR first and foremost, any ship with ECM bonus gets a bonus against marauders, in this case it's caldari ships, so it's a stealth boost in theory.
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Milton Dechain
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Posted - 2008.12.04 05:57:00 -
[15]
"just horrible" is pushing it a bit too much. marauders are the king of missioning, period. you'll never get a dominix up to even close to the dps of a marauder. CNRs were closer but still not that great without the tractor bonus.
thats funny. my dominix does 350dps more than an kronos,, and i got good skills for flying both
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Veritech knight
Envoy Corps
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Posted - 2008.12.04 14:37:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Veritech knight on 04/12/2008 14:37:53
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The Vargur (I have one) is an absolute joke.
well we'll agree to disagree then. mine can hit anything from 10-60km with autocannons, almost 1000 dps and can chew threw any mission *fast*. ok so I dont really factor in cost since I only do maybe a mission or 2 a day for fun (not main revenue), but time-wise I have a hard time imagining even a kronos being faster. I dont think my sentry-domi (even with sentry rigs) could ever match my vargur, but would love it if someone could show me otherwise with t2 sentries.
all imho of course :)
o/ vk
edit: sorry to OP for getting off-topic
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Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.04 21:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Milton Dechain thats funny. my dominix does 350dps more than an kronos,, and i got good skills for flying both
Thats very possible seeing as a kronos can struggle to do "any" dps because it's a PVE blaster ship , it's a formula that does not really work , the prospect of trying to web ships in a lvl 4 mission with an AB equipped BS is somewhat daunting and laughable.
Slightly off topic though as I didnt wan't it to be targetted just on one type of marauder, simple fact is that they are all borked in general due to crappy sensor strength.
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Cpt Constantinus
Celestial Janissaries
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Posted - 2008.12.04 21:45:00 -
[18]
Yea, i fail to see the reason why a 600+ million isk ship which gets ganked just as easily as every other battleship shouldnt be viable in pvp. A sensor strenght of 25/30 or so would be imo far better.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.12.04 21:53:00 -
[19]
Edited by: The Djego on 04/12/2008 21:55:53 ECM was the only nerf that donŠt hadicap this ships in PVE(beside the pathetic Scan resulution), since NPC ECM doesnŠt count in Sensor Strenth of the ship at all(simple random chance, not affected by ship type or size at all).
For all the people that think the Domi is the better mission ship than the Kronos, well I havenŠt used it since I had buyed my Kronos. The tracking is a huge diffrence(after fitting 2 TCs) between on paper DPS and on Target DPS in Missions if you compare a Shield Tanked Rail Domi with a AT Kronos.
I like to take on the comment about the OP Kronos in PVP. You are wrong, it is a extrem expensive close Range Ship and the 90% Web is allready a gimp in Mission running with it(increase the time to slow down targets, removed the ability to hit Frigs with Rails). The 90% Web is something that made a Blaster ship work, the 60% Web is not ballanced for this Blaster ship it gimpes the Blaster ship in his own range and makes it a joke compared to the deadly weapon it should be. The 90% Web on the Kronos is only leathel because all other Blaster BS are now simply a joke on her own range what they should dominate. Beside this I never used the Kronos in PVP(Navy Mega was my choice) and the Torp Golem was fare more powerfull even without the 99% Web I faced one in my Navy Mega and it outclassed other BS as Gank platformes while still fitting a very solid active tank(1000 DPS Tank). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2008.12.04 22:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Brea Lafail I was pretty sure it had something to do with how easy it is to probe out a ship. Can't remember which way it goes, but think lower sensor strength makes the ship easier to find.
The base signature modifier when trying to probe out another ship is the target ship signature radius divided by its sensor strength. So yes, lower sensor strength means easier to probe out. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.12.04 22:38:00 -
[21]
CCP didn't want the T1 BSes to become overshadowed by the T2 ones, so they introduced drawbacks to keep them out of mainstream use.
Simple as that.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.12.04 23:44:00 -
[22]
Paladin > other marauders though :)
EVE History Wiki
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.05 00:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Veritech knight
Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR)..
"just horrible" is pushing it a bit too much. marauders are the king of missioning, period. you'll never get a dominix up to even close to the dps of a marauder. CNRs were closer but still not that great without the tractor bonus.
imho, of course.
to the OP: RP wise, yeah doesnt make much sense for the sensors, I agree. vk
The effective performance of my max skilled Kronos compared to my max skilled Dominix for running missions is actually LESS under normal use.
DPS is useless when you can't actually apply it to a target, or a large percentage of targets. The Dominix with sentry drones has almost as much effective DPS as a Kronos at long range, and at shorter ranges has more DPS due to the amount of firepower able to be applied to small targets through bonused light drones.
The Dominix can perma tank any L4 in the game, with full aggro, for less cost than a Kronos. Did I mention that the Dominix is WAY harder to probe out given it's better sensor strength/sig radius ratio? And it's cheaper. And fully insurable (I don't insure mine, but it is none the less).
There is no real reason to choose the Kronos over the Dominix, other than to just have something different. And when you factor in skillpoint requirements, cost of ownership (ammunition cost) there is even LESS of a reason to use the Kronos in PVE.
The Vargur (I have one) is an absolute joke. The Golem is pretty darn awesome, and the Paladin works pretty good as well. The Kronos sucks for PVE, and is the only workable blaster ship left for PVP. Too bad it has horrible lock time and lousy sensor strength. If those two things were fixed, I'd never fly anything else.
Horrible for PVE is a bit difficult to quantifiy. If you are speaking about the sheer costs of the ship when compared to the increase in effeciency, you may be right in some cases. But the Golem is inarguably a better PVE ship than the Raven and the Paladin is better than anything else in the Amarr linup as well. I don't have any experience with the other two marauders but I have to assume that they hold true to the trend when compared to the correct ship. The Kronos if often compared to the Dominix which is a fallacy given the completely different approaches the ships take - instead it SHOULD be compared to a Hyperion/Megathron.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.12.05 01:03:00 -
[24]
For those who think the Vargur is not good - it is still better than any of the other Minmatar BSs for PvE (although just as with the Dominix:Kronos comparison, the Typhoon compares pretty favorably). ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Ford Chicago
Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor
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Posted - 2008.12.05 04:22:00 -
[25]
I fly both a Sentry Domi and Kronos. Each has it's advantages, and I simply select the best ship for each mission.
I certainly wouldn't say the Kronos is as cost effective as a Dominix, but it can definitely finish many missions faster. I can single volley frigs at range with T2 sentries, but I can single volley some cruisers with the Kronos.
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Nebulous
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.05 05:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Artemis Rose CCP didn't want the T1 BSes to become overshadowed by the T2 ones, so they introduced drawbacks to keep them out of mainstream use.
Simple as that.
Agreed, but you have got slightly sidetracked, a) why shouldnt they overshadow a T1 BS? (it's T2 and cots a lot more) B) if they are going to give them a weakness why make it to ECM? As I said before ECM is primarily the caldari racial EWAR, this makes "any" marauder weaker to caldari ECM boats than any other ship class.
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Presidio
Minmatar Hug Nutz
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Posted - 2008.12.05 06:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus CCP don't know how to balance their game. Try as they might, people use Marauders for PVP, despite CCP's best efforts to ruin them for the purpose. Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR). And low sensor strength on a ship with a large sig radius? That just screams "PROBE ME." Pun intended.
Back at the ranch... Black Ops ships are horrible at PVP and just about everything else. GG CCP.
You're spot on. It's really sad and funny at the same time. Also missile can't hit a fast moving target even if they are on a collision course (no traversal movement). -
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.05 09:48:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Veritech knight
Originally by: Bellum Eternus ... Meanwhile Marauders are just horrible at PVE compared to some really basic options (Dominix, CNR)..
"just horrible" is pushing it a bit too much. marauders are the king of missioning, period. you'll never get a dominix up to even close to the dps of a marauder. CNRs were closer but still not that great without the tractor bonus.
imho, of course.
to the OP: RP wise, yeah doesnt make much sense for the sensors, I agree. vk
The effective performance of my max skilled Kronos compared to my max skilled Dominix for running missions is actually LESS under normal use.
DPS is useless when you can't actually apply it to a target, or a large percentage of targets. The Dominix with sentry drones has almost as much effective DPS as a Kronos at long range, and at shorter ranges has more DPS due to the amount of firepower able to be applied to small targets through bonused light drones.
The Dominix can perma tank any L4 in the game, with full aggro, for less cost than a Kronos. Did I mention that the Dominix is WAY harder to probe out given it's better sensor strength/sig radius ratio? And it's cheaper. And fully insurable (I don't insure mine, but it is none the less).
There is no real reason to choose the Kronos over the Dominix, other than to just have something different. And when you factor in skillpoint requirements, cost of ownership (ammunition cost) there is even LESS of a reason to use the Kronos in PVE.
The Vargur (I have one) is an absolute joke. The Golem is pretty darn awesome, and the Paladin works pretty good as well. The Kronos sucks for PVE, and is the only workable blaster ship left for PVP. Too bad it has horrible lock time and lousy sensor strength. If those two things were fixed, I'd never fly anything else.
Horrible for PVE is a bit difficult to quantifiy. If you are speaking about the sheer costs of the ship when compared to the increase in effeciency, you may be right in some cases. But the Golem is inarguably a better PVE ship than the Raven and the Paladin is better than anything else in the Amarr linup as well. I don't have any experience with the other two marauders but I have to assume that they hold true to the trend when compared to the correct ship. The Kronos if often compared to the Dominix which is a fallacy given the completely different approaches the ships take - instead it SHOULD be compared to a Hyperion/Megathron.
I disagree. It should be compared to the best mission runner Gallente has: the Dominix. The Mega/Hype are horrible for PVE.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.05 09:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I disagree. It should be compared to the best mission runner Gallente has: the Dominix. The Mega/Hype are horrible for PVE.
This.
The only reason the Gallente marauder is a T2 Megathron is because of the absolutely stupid and long-obsolete tier system. If all battleships were considered equal in cost/power, it would be a T2 Dominix. But since we have the tier system, we're stuck with a T2 Dominix as the black ops, a T2 Megathron as the marauder, and neither of them useful. -----------
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.12.05 10:01:00 -
[30]
Vargur - The 600 million isk cruise raven.
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