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Rago
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Posted - 2008.12.04 19:57:00 -
[1]
Hey guys, Thinking about train for caps and wanted to ask which race has the best caps (ie best dread, best carrier thats it basically dont think ill train for titan :p)
thanks in advance :)
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Sarciss
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.12.04 20:11:00 -
[2]
Amarr/Gallente, go for whichever you think looks better i spose
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.04 20:13:00 -
[3]
In my opinion, the Chimera and Archon are the best carriers because the resist bonus is king. But the Thanatos is also very good because it has both the remote shield and armor repping - making it a more effective universal repper - but sacrifices its local tank somewhat to do so.
When it comes to dreads, its really a Moros and Revelation world out there. . .The pheonix is very good for some things, and the Nag is a total waste of time.
Ultimatly, you should just take your first BB 5 race (and I hope that is not minmatar) and train the caps for that. The dread skill book is 60 mil - so its easy to change dreads later. For carriers though. . .the skillbook is a little more expensive, and I would take the time to choise that wisely (Archon, Thanatos, Chimera, big drop, Nid - in that order) ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Presidio
Minmatar Hug Nutz
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Posted - 2008.12.04 20:14:00 -
[4]
Minmatar dread sux.But it looks the best.
Revelation is almost perfect except for the smaller cargo bay and limited damage types.
Carriers all have their strengths, do some research. Pick any carrier you want. You really can't go wrong with any of them pick one based on which race's battleship V you want. -
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Presidio
Minmatar Hug Nutz
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Posted - 2008.12.04 20:18:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Presidio Minmatar dread sux.But it looks the best.
Revelation is almost perfect except for the smaller cargo bay and limited damage types.
Carriers all have their strengths, do some research. Pick any carrier you want. You really can't go wrong with any of them pick one based on which race's battleship V you want.
Nidhoggur is good too. The only carrier that gets a bonus to rate of remote repair. It's also faster then other carriers.
It has the worst local tank, but local tank isn't everything when it comes to carriers. -
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.04 21:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 04/12/2008 20:27:31 Nidhoggur is good too. The only carrier that gets a bonus to rate of remote repair. It's also faster then other carriers.
It has the worst local tank, but local tank isn't everything when it comes to carriers.
in theory yes - but look at the bonus' - the resist bonus on the Archon and Chimera is 25% at level 5 across the board and ignores stacking - which means. . .its a streight reduction of 25% from all damage. . .
A Capital remote armor or shield rep does 1500 hp per 5 seconds - 25% of that makes it 1850 hp for the Nid. It takes 20 - 25 seconds to make another rep amount. . . of 1500. . .which is actually not a lot when we look at a capital armor (9000 every 22 seconds) or a capital shield rep (9000 every 10 seconds) which means it takes a lot of RR to make up for the local tank. In addition, if your target is taking 25% less damage AND has more slots for resists to begin with - then its easier to RR.
The Nid and Thanny need their respective bonus' increaced to 7.5% per level to be really comprable to the Archon and Chimera. . .and thats just not going to happen (because CCP does not really see problems with capitals other then the fact that they exist). . . ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Superfailsauce
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.12.04 22:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 04/12/2008 20:27:31 Nidhoggur is good too. The only carrier that gets a bonus to rate of remote repair. It's also faster then other carriers.
It has the worst local tank, but local tank isn't everything when it comes to carriers.
in theory yes - but look at the bonus' - the resist bonus on the Archon and Chimera is 25% at level 5 across the board and ignores stacking - which means. . .its a streight reduction of 25% from all damage. . .
A Capital remote armor or shield rep does 1500 hp per 5 seconds - 25% of that makes it 1850 hp for the Nid. It takes 20 - 25 seconds to make another rep amount. . . of 1500. . .which is actually not a lot when we look at a capital armor (9000 every 22 seconds) or a capital shield rep (9000 every 10 seconds) which means it takes a lot of RR to make up for the local tank. In addition, if your target is taking 25% less damage AND has more slots for resists to begin with - then its easier to RR.
The Nid and Thanny need their respective bonus' increaced to 7.5% per level to be really comprable to the Archon and Chimera. . .and thats just not going to happen (because CCP does not really see problems with capitals other then the fact that they exist). . .
Cycle rate on Cap RRs is 5 seconds IIRC meaning 300 raw dps repped per repper (more like 1000 after resists). I'd rather fly a Nid or Archon over a Thanny, Archon has better cap so can sustain more reppers for longer, Nid has better transfer so doesn't need to sustain as many reppers for as long, Thanny is an extra 200 dps. Local tank is largely irrelevant. If you're in a small gang and you're the only cap and your support gets BBQed you're dead, if you're in a large cap fleet you've got you're mates backing you up and you're probably going to be neuted to hell. ------- Larkonis' Alt, main got banned. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.05 00:32:00 -
[8]
ya. . .we are in agreement (if I am reading this right) - but the point I was trying to illustrate was:
1) resist is king but 2) universal repper is nice. so Archon (best because its Armor tanker w. resist, Remote Armor), then Thanny (because of the universal repping and its a good armor tanker), then Chimera (shield tanker + resist is a great tank, but, shield transfer is more useful for POS repping), then Niddy (because it has the weakest tank, the worst cap, and is primaried because its a good remote repper. . .and it should be a shield tank).
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ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Superfailsauce
Neo Spartans
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Posted - 2008.12.05 14:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky ya. . .we are in agreement (if I am reading this right) - but the point I was trying to illustrate was:
1) resist is king but 2) universal repper is nice. so Archon (best because its Armor tanker w. resist, Remote Armor), then Thanny (because of the universal repping and its a good armor tanker), then Chimera (shield tanker + resist is a great tank, but, shield transfer is more useful for POS repping), then Niddy (because it has the weakest tank, the worst cap, and is primaried because its a good remote repper. . .and it should be a shield tank).
Niddy doesn't tank any better or worse than a Thanatos. Same slot lay out, same recharge rate, less base cap yes but if you square your fit away properly that shouldn't be an issue, it's all about the recharge. ------- Larkonis' Alt, main got banned. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 14:31:00 -
[10]
If you want carrier only, take caldari or amarr. If you want dread only, take amarr. For both, gallente.
The differences are rather small though and it comes down to fitting and experience more than to the ships base stats.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.12.05 15:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sokratesz If you want carrier only, take caldari or amarr. If you want dread only, take amarr. For both, gallente.
[..]
This, but I would add: if you wanna look kewl, minmatar caps are the only way :)
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
Janu Hull
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.05 17:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Janu Hull on 05/12/2008 17:24:13
Originally by: Sokratesz If you want carrier only, take caldari or amarr. If you want dread only, take amarr. For both, gallente.
The differences are rather small though and it comes down to fitting and experience more than to the ships base stats.
I've been told a lot of people like the Phoenix for damage type selection. No matter what you're shooting, you can always hit the weak spots.
Yes, shield hardeners on POSes negate that, but how often do you see them except on death stars? And DS's aren't the most common POS targets out there.
And, eh, not to be rude, but wouldn't your post put Amarr under the "both" category? In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.05 19:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Janu Hull
And, eh, not to be rude, but wouldn't your post put Amarr under the "both" category?
I imagine because of T2 Sentries as point defense and the versitility the Moros offers, while the Rev is the best for pure POS work, Moros' offer protection, offensive capability and decent anti-POS work. . .a very good combo.
But I think Sok hit the selection on the head: Gal, Amarr, Cal, Min for both : Amarr, Cal, Gal/Min for Carrier only, Gal, Amarr, Cal, Min for Dreads. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:00:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 05/12/2008 21:01:17
Originally by: Janu Hull
I've been told a lot of people like the Phoenix for damage type selection. No matter what you're shooting, you can always hit the weak spots.
Hint: nobody with sense does that. First off carrying lots of torps around kills your cargohold, second you lose 25% dps when switching damage types. Phoenix had great theoretical dps but travel time and destructibility of torps sucks. I have two chars that fly phoenix btw.
Originally by: Janu Hull
Yes, shield hardeners on POSes negate that, but how often do you see them except on death stars? And DS's aren't the most common POS targets out there.
Guess which POSes matter most in territorial warfare?
Originally by: Janu Hull
And, eh, not to be rude, but wouldn't your post put Amarr under the "both" category?
Er no, if you want both dread and carrier, the moros and thanatos are both very versatile and share the very important drone skills. Amarr doesn't have that.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:19:00 -
[15]
Slightly off-topic question here.
Assuming an even damage spread (unlikely but makes the maths simpler) and lvl5 carrier skills (ditto).
A Niddy has 25% to remote reps. An Archon has 25% armor resists. Has anyone ever worked out what effect the armor resist bonus has on the amount of EHP, not RAW HP, an unbonused rep transfers.
What I'm asking is does the resist bonus of a carrier mean that unbonused remote reps EFFECTIVELY transfer more than a bonused remote rep would to a non-resist bonused ship.
It does make sense.
Honest.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:55:00 -
[16]
25% resist is 33% more effective tank, but it only works locally whereas reps can be turned on any target
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2008.12.05 22:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sokratesz 25% resist is 33% more effective tank, but it only works locally whereas reps can be turned on any target
It doesnt only work locally.
A 25% resist bonus mitigates all incoming damage. Meaning that any tank the ship is running or receiving (local or remote) is better.
What I wanna know is does a resist bonus increase the effective tankj more than a remote rep bonus.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 22:11:00 -
[18]
Yes but the resist bonus only works on carriers not on titans or support or POSes.
Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart |
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