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Omarvelous
Caldari Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.12.05 15:08:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 05/12/2008 15:08:14 Do any of you guys fly long range ships?!
Heavy missile/Cruise missile launchers with FoFs.
Long range turret boats with eccm.
Snipers drive off/kill falcon (or at least take up ecm jams that would have been thrown at your dps gang).
Your own Falcon/Ecm boat instead of wasting cycles on another Falcon - jams up the hostile dps fleet.
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Dro Nee
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Posted - 2008.12.05 15:19:00 -
[32]
The other day I watched as a 12 day old (yes 12 DAYS)in a griffin was attacked by an '04 player in a cane outside a station in lowsec. Griffin pilot recieved 0 dmg, while the cane died to sentry fire. I asked the griffon pilot what his fit was and he said 1 ladar and 1 multispec jammer.
Not saying its overpowered.... but I think I will be training up jamming or making a jamming alt soon.
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Neverine Crux
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Posted - 2008.12.05 15:24:00 -
[33]
What cruiser can have 5 medium ECM drones?? My ruppy can hold 4 smalls and 1 medium
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.12.05 15:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Neverine Crux What cruiser can have 5 medium ECM drones?? My ruppy can hold 4 smalls and 1 medium
thorax vexor arbitrator
ishtar deimos curse pilgrim
Off the top of my head.
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide.. |
The Tzar
Malicious Intentions
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Posted - 2008.12.05 16:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka There's a lot of annoying semantics flying around here, so let's get a few things straight:
- keeping a ship out of the fight is basically the same as permajamming it, forcing it to warp out, etc. With the 20sec jam cycle and the pretty high lock times on a battleship (like 9 seconds on a well skilled char without any gang/mod boni to target another BS) a single succesful jam cycle takes out a BS effectively for 1.5 jam cycle time. If the BS takes even longer to lock this goes up pretty fast. If you jam a BS 50% of the time while it has a 10s lock time you're effectively taking it out of combat 75% of the time you're jamming it.
- One falcon can permajam 5 people (if it brings 5 ecm mods). If only because the whole ecm system is chancebased these days. If you've been permajammed in a fight, it can easily mean there was more than one ecm mod/drone on you. Or that there was a bit of luck in your enemy's favour.
- Usually the effective racial jam strength for a falcon is like 12 (at optimal 150km), meaning with a ship strength of 24 you're about at the 50% jam chance per racial mod. Most cruisers have a sensor strength of around 12, amarr and minmatar 13 or lower, gallente and caldari 13 or higher. Highlights: zealot: 13, ishtar 16, falcon 28 (yeah caldari are harder to jam). And how about BC? Harbinger, Hurricane: 16, myrmidon 18 and drake 19. An armageddon has sensor strength 17. In fact most battleships have less than 24 sensor strength, only 2 have 24.
- The OP has some stuff about not being able to solo a cruiser with a cruiser without 5 med ECM drones. That is greatly dependant on the ships tbh, I know quite a few people who fit eccm on their solo cruiser, take out the ecm drones and then use their greatly enhanced dps to just wtfpwn the enemy. But it's certainly a lot easier and efficient to bring your own ecm drones.
Point? I too believe ECM is overpowered. I don't believe it's an iWIN, I do believe you can buff your chances by fitting your ship with falcons in mind.
Right now ecm is a bit too chaotically random. If you're in a small ship (that's not a specific eccm boat itself) you're pretty much screwed since good ecm pilots (who pump out 14 strength) can jam you with a ~90-100% jam chance. If you're fitting ECCM you'd do well to check your sensor strength after.. armageddon + eccm II = 33.3 sensor strength which means a good ecm pilot will get a jam chance of about 40% per white noise II.. Even if you fit multiple ECCM (sniper pest with 2 eccm = 68.3 sensor strength) on a BS a good ecm pilot gets like 20% jam chance per module.
Nerf it a bit, make it scripted, lower jam cycle a bit. As it is now, it's just as overpowered as the old sensor damps.
Some great points there Keitaro.
The anit-ECM squad however do not listen to facts, figures or statistics.
They like words like 'PERMA' and 'NERF' and have leave the forum with very little substance.
Maybe with more math and logic posted as you have just done, the anti-ECM squad might stop amplifying the truth into falsehoods and propaganda. __________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________ |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 17:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lauri Andromedae
Originally by: Vaurion Infara That's right, I said it. It seems recently, unless you have a cruiser fitted with 5 medium ECM drones, you might as well not bother trying to solo another cruiser, because they sure as hell have it. They take away any semblance of a competitive fight, and unless you have friends, there is absolutely NO way you can win, because they can and will permajam you every time. Falcons and Blackbirds are ridiculously overpowered. One Falcon or BB can permajam 5 people? And you can't kill them, because guess what, you're jammed? It seems the only way to combat ECM is with more ECM, because it truly is the largest factor in a fight, not speed, not DPS, not playing skill, not skillpoints. ECM. And I'm very very tired of it.
Bring your own falcon. Problem solved. Period.
What do you think we are doing? People like us that adapt simply get a falcon alt and problem is solved. It's just that we might not agree on that being the best solution. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 17:44:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 05/12/2008 12:48:08
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
And your post does? Ask any skilled pvper, they know falcons are OP in low sec small gang/solo warfare. And no, emo all you like. CCP isn't going to nerf a race/ship they've boosted few months ago. It is also nothing new that amarr dominate MID range. You like mid range? Wth didn't you train amarr? They will however adjust other ships to the new QR speeds. Wich means at some point falcons operation range will be looked at. At that point all the noobs will cry because they can't use their falcons in easy mode anymore.
Your logic is fail too , if you say amarr dominate mid range and it is fine . Than a caldari ship like a falcon should dominate long range , and no need for any nerf in its operation range as that would make it good in mid range which is for amarr and therefore it is eighter an amarr ship or not good in mid range. So following this caldari rail ships needs a boost to dominate long range, able to shot at long range and doing lol dmg is not dominating.
So pls come to caldari railboat boost topic and give us a thumbs up , thx Lyria.
Ps.: i forgot to put out that you should come to boost blaster ships topics aswell ,as those ships dont dominate close range atm.
Caldari DO dominate extreme long ranges in every ship class. Does amarr EW DOMINATE mid range? No, neither should falcon totally dominate at extreme ranges. You got rook and scorp for that. Falcon does not need the same range. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.05 17:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
No, neither should falcon totally dominate at extreme ranges. You got rook and scorp for that. Falcon does not need the same range.
So you think the ECM ships you can tank best need range and the one that you can tank least needs reducing in range?....
Please keep posting you making me chuckle lots.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.05 18:28:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/12/2008 18:28:19
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
No, neither should falcon totally dominate at extreme ranges. You got rook and scorp for that. Falcon does not need the same range.
So you think the ECM ships you can tank best need range and the one that you can tank least needs reducing in range?....
Please keep posting you making me chuckle lots.
No, you're making totally dumb conclusions. What I said is that at mid range amarr ew does not dominate at mid range like the falcon dominates with its ew at long ranges. How is this hard to understand? This is after all your logic. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Neverending Story |
Vaurion Infara
Gallente Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2008.12.05 22:52:00 -
[40]
I'm not calling for an end to ECM, it's definitely a vital part of the game. I just wish it was set up differently. The purely chance based mechanics and uneven stacking amongst the races need to go, however. The Falcon is a ECM ship, great. It excels at its job. Wonderful. But it still shouldn't be able to neutralize 3-5 opponents every time. I think the main problem I have with it is the effect it has on PVP mechanics. If ECM isn't the biggest contributor to stalemates and local spew, I don't know what is. =) Yes, this is a personal problem, and if I was that hellbent on never being ECM'ed again, I'd fit an ECCM on my af. My point is that ECM is far more rampant then it should be, and something should be done to remedy that. Draw all the comparisons to the nano nerf you want, but that needed to happen too. But at least with nanos you could fight them with drones or maneuvering. When you can't lock something, you can't fight.
Southside OMS yo'. |
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.05 23:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vaurion Infara I'm not calling for an end to ECM, it's definitely a vital part of the game. I just wish it was set up differently. The purely chance based mechanics and uneven stacking amongst the races need to go, however. The Falcon is a ECM ship, great. It excels at its job. Wonderful. But it still shouldn't be able to neutralize 3-5 opponents every time. I think the main problem I have with it is the effect it has on PVP mechanics. If ECM isn't the biggest contributor to stalemates and local spew, I don't know what is. =) Yes, this is a personal problem, and if I was that hellbent on never being ECM'ed again, I'd fit an ECCM on my af. My point is that ECM is far more rampant then it should be, and something should be done to remedy that. Draw all the comparisons to the nano nerf you want, but that needed to happen too. But at least with nanos you could fight them with drones or maneuvering. When you can't lock something, you can't fight.
and? what do you want to ECM to do? shoot flowers and **** rainbows?
or should we go back to the days of when you need a full rack of medslots in a BB to jam a single battleship?
ECM is a force multiplier. you can't deal with it, then you're doing something wrong*.
* = usually not bringing your own ECM or some sort of anti-support. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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