Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 16:47:00 -
[1]
www.BIG-EVE.com/BMBE
The BMBE neeeds more ISK for loans. Currently demand is outstripping available funds. Issuing bonds is the fastest way of raising extra capital to service BMBE clients.
The auction is for 50B ISK Starting bid is 3%, buyout is 1% - increments are 0.25% (or should that be called decrements) Minimim bid block is 2B ISK, with increments of 1B ISK (ie. valid bid blocks are 2B ISK, 3B ISK, 4B ISK etc)
Auction ends at 2008-12-13 23:59 EVE time ISK has to be paid by 2008-12-14 23:59 EVE time Check back to see here if your bid has won.
Interest rate is 4th weekly (28 days) - and likewise paid 4th weekly (unless bought back earlier - see below) So a 3% bid will earn marginally more than 3% a month.
If two blocks are tied at the same interest, the larger block wins (5B@3% wins over 2B@3%), with the smaller one beeing granted any leftover (even if it goes below the 2B ISK block minimum) If two blocks are the same size and at the same interest, the earliest bid wins.
Buyback is special, and as such interest payment. (I'm not sure the term "bond" actually covers this offer correctly as there is no set length, but the term will be used for ease of reference.)
Bonds can be bought back in the middle of a "month" (28 day period), and bonds such bought back will only recieve interest for the part of the period they where issued.
The reason for this is that the bonds are tied directly to client loans, and as soon as a client makes a downpayment on a loan, the capital is no longer needed, and the bonds (equivalent to the amount of downpayment) will be bought back. As BMBE clients can make downpayments weekly (anytime in fact, but it's only reflected on their interest payments weekly), the need to buy back bonds can occur in the middle of a "month" (28 day period)
Buyback will be done in order of highest interest, smallest block (consider this when bidding) Example A: 5B@2% B: 2B@2% C: 5B@3% D: 2B@3%
Those blocks will be bought back in the order D,C,B,A Buybacks can split blocks. So if you have a 20B ISK block, 10B ISK might be bought back - Leaving you with a 10B ISK block.
A bond ledger will be maintained and investors will need to inform me of any transfers Note : I reserve the right to reject any bid at any time for whatever reason I see fit. I may or may not give a reason. The reason for the above is to try and curb anyone trying to mess up the action, and I may or may not wan't to waste time explaining why someone is a jackass. BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 16:48:00 -
[2]
reserved BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 16:49:00 -
[3]
reserved BIG Lottery |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 17:22:00 -
[4]
I personally want a bite of this cake
10B@3%
BIG Lottery |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 22:10:00 -
[5]
TS, it seems like you are doing a good job on turning round BMBE in terms of making loans. Congrats for that.
I have two questions regarding your bonds, as I know you are a stickler for doing WHATEVER it says in your offer document.
1. Even though you have a 'good rep', I can't think this can be considered as safe as EBank and they pay 1.5%. Also Ray's bonds pay 4.5%. Why should you get such a low rate?
2. In the offer (if I have interpreted correctly?) you decide when you want to buy back the bonds. This could leave the situation in which you choose to NOT buy back the bonds and keep using the capital as you see fit, in a similar way you won't make changes to anything the way BMBE is run (your choice). If I was to invest in a bond I would at least want a term limit, that I have the right to have the bond re-purchased at a set date (say 6 months) and for full value.
Remember you could always release new bonds. If you were not doing a good job, the risk would go up with the interest rate. This also helps to keep bond launchers on their toes.
|
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 22:15:00 -
[6]
I'm curious to know what your criteria are for issuing loans. Some of us might be better off making the loans directly to those concerned. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 22:41:00 -
[7]
Edited by: TornSoul on 07/12/2008 22:41:18
@cosmoray
1: Not sure why it's not on par with EBANK But if that's your opinion... And pays twice the interest...
Ray's at 4.5% is obviously a better deal. The reason for the (low) 3% is that I still want to make some ISK for the BMBE shareholders (diff between the 3% and what the BMBE loans cost)
If it's too low for you - So be it, not much I can do about that.
2: "This could leave the situation in which you choose to NOT buy back the bonds"
Uhm - I've actaully stated that: "as soon as a client makes a downpayment on a loan, the capital is no longer needed, and the bonds (equivalent to the amount of downpayment) will be bought back." So no, I will not not buy back bonds (gotta love double negatives) It's in BMBE's interest to buy back the bonds as soon as possible, as they are an expense. Reducing that expense, increases profit (dividend).
"I would at least want a term limit, that I have the right to have the bond re-purchased at a set date"
Which is why I'm not sure this can truly be called a bond (?) - as I can't give a time guarantee on a buy-back, as it's tied into client loans. If they don't pay back their loans, partially or full (at the time you want), there's no ISK available to buy back the bonds. If there where, there would be no need for the bonds in the first place...
@Kazuo Ishiguro Not quite sure what you are asking? Want to cut out BMBE from the process? I hope you can see why that would not be in BMBE's interest.
BIG Lottery |
Mjojjnir
Caldari Gods R Us
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 23:03:00 -
[8]
Do u have a set time for the when the amounts will be repaid by? For example you will get the bond value back in 12months, or is it just going to be completely decided by what is in the best interest of BMBE
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 23:13:00 -
[9]
Edited by: TornSoul on 07/12/2008 23:14:41
I would be very surprised if it would take 12 months.
Recall that these bonds are tied directly to BMBE loans.
And BMBE loans usually run for 2-6 months.
A very few for shorter, and a very few for longer.
A loan running for longer than 6 months, ends up getting quite expensive... so loantakers are actually adviced upon taking a loan to consider if they can pay back "in reasonable time".
So in short : I expect to _start_ buying back bonds in 1-3 months from now, and expect to buy back the _last_ bond in around 6 months. Ie. I expect to see some downpayment on capital starting around 1-3 months from now, and the loan paid of at around the 6 month mark.
But note that these are only expectations, based on previous experience with loantakers, they are not guarantees.
BIG Lottery |
Mjojjnir
Caldari Gods R Us
|
Posted - 2008.12.07 23:16:00 -
[10]
3bil for 3%
|
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:07:00 -
[11]
So this is pretty much the same as the current BMBE situation where investors have no say as to when they get their isk back?
Not quite sure I'm following you so let me give an example.
I buyout this entire offering for 50b @ 1%. You take that 50b and loan it out. You continue to loan it out and get it back and loan it out again for as long as you want to until you are satisfied and THEN you can repay the investors. But until you decide to pay it back the investors just keep getting that 1% or whatever it ends up being. Is that correct? Sort of a LONG term low interest investment pretty much like BMBE already is except these would be fixed rates?
Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 You take that 50b and loan it out. You continue to loan it out and get it back and loan it out again for as long as you want to
No.
As already explained 2-3 times above.
When a loan repayment is made, either partially or full, the bonds expires (are bought back)
At least read the posts...
BIG Lottery |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 You take that 50b and loan it out. You continue to loan it out and get it back and loan it out again for as long as you want to
No.
As already explained 2-3 times above.
When a loan repayment is made, either partially or full, the bonds expires (are bought back)
At least read the posts...
Indeed you did explain it already, but let me have a crack at it.
The Treelox Interpretation
Isk raised via bonds is tied to a specific loan, as principle of that loan is paid off so will the bond be. Bonds will be paid off in order, from highest cost to BMBE to lowest cost to BMBE. -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 You take that 50b and loan it out. You continue to loan it out and get it back and loan it out again for as long as you want to
No.
As already explained 2-3 times above.
When a loan repayment is made, either partially or full, the bonds expires (are bought back)
At least read the posts...
I guess I was confused because your offering explains it in 2 different ways. The first part says the bonds are tied to loans, but it doesn't say we will know when or how much of the loans are paid back so how would we know when we get our isk back. The second part explains bonds in general and says when you get your isk back is defined in the bond offering, but in your bond offering it isn't defined.
My point, if you loan out 50b and the people you loan it to decide to take a year to pay back the isk the bond holders have to wait a year for their isk. If they decide to wait for 3 years then bond holders have to wait 3 years for their isk.
Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
|
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 My point, if you loan out 50b and the people you loan it to decide to take a year to pay back the isk the bond holders have to wait a year for their isk. If they decide to wait for 3 years then bond holders have to wait 3 years for their isk.
/sigh..
AC you missed the fun question. What happens to a bond if the loan defaults, and collateral cant cover it in full? -- Chribba's LoveQuest 17:00hrs Dec. 20th (Prizes!!)
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:39:00 -
[16]
@Treelox
Thank you - hopefully that helps someone.
@Amarr Citizen 155
Once again : Read the damn posts.
I've already explained why that scenario is highly improbable.
And to top it of, I've even given my best estimate, based on previous experience, as what the expected run time of the bonds will be.
Now go troll somewhere else please...
BIG Lottery |
Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Industrial Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:39:00 -
[17]
2b @ 3% |
Hoshi
The Einherjar Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:41:00 -
[18]
3b at 3% ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: TornSoul @Treelox
Thank you - hopefully that helps someone.
@Amarr Citizen 155
Once again : Read the damn posts.
I've already explained why that scenario is highly improbable.
And to top it of, I've even given my best estimate, based on previous experience, as what the expected run time of the bonds will be.
Now go troll somewhere else please...
I guess I didn't like the "based on previous experience" answer as we've seen that with new players here and torn them apart for it. I've seen lots of people say something is highly improbable and then it happens. I don't think its trolling to ask that question again if I don't feel it was fully answered the first time. So again, if the 'highly unlikely" were to happen and someone had to take 12 months to pay off the loan, then the bond holder would get his isk back in 12 months... correct?
Trolling? Hardly.
Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Treelox What happens to a bond if the loan defaults, and collateral cant cover it in full?
Been waiting for that one
This doesn't impact the bond holders.
However in that case the BMBE takes takes a capital hit - and a business hit. As the missing ISK (to buy back bonds) thus will have to be taken from the capital beeing paid back on other loans - meaning less business can be made (new loans made)
Same as if any other loan would default, and the collateral turned out to not be sufficient.
Probability : Very close to a NaN error message
BIG Lottery |
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Tleilex Developments
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 00:53:00 -
[21]
And my apologies for asking my question in a strange way but treelox isn't on MSN to proof-read it.
Basically, my only concern was if you loan the isk out and the person you loan it to suffers some sort of in-game or out of game problem where they didn't default on you but need extended time to pay it back. Would the bond then have to wait for them to pay it back.
Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 01:04:00 -
[22]
As already explained... These bonds are an expense to the BMBE.
BMBE would like to _not_ have this expense, but is currently "forced" to endure it, in order to serve customers.
As such we want to pay back the bonds as fast as possible.
This however requires ISK, which BMBE does not have, hence the bond offering (is there some kind of circular logic here...)
Anyhow...
In the case you outline, two things could happen :
1: Yes bond holders would have to wait. 2: No bond holders would be paid with capital released from other loans, should they be available (and not needed for other loans) - As BMBE _does not_ want the expense from the bonds.
Cliff notes : BMBE want to get rid of (pay back) these bonds as fast as human possible.
BIG Lottery |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 02:10:00 -
[23]
Are the loans, collateral backed?
If the loans you are making are not backed with collateral thats a decent level of risk for a very low return. If backed with collateral much better.
The only problem I have with no term limits is that it can all become quite fuzzy. Its your interpretation on which of our bonds get applied to which loans.
Secnario 1.
I buy 5B at 2% in December and loan runs for 6 months Ac155 buys 5B at 3% in January and loan runs for 4 months.
Both loans finish at same time.
You make another loan for 5B, leaving 5B to pay back bondholders. You choose to buyout AC155 at 3% to lower your costs, and my 5B gets rolled on.
Again because of your offer document I don't get a say when I can cash the bond.
I absolutely don't like bonds which do not have term limits. Every other bond launcher in MD defined term limits, or has option roll overs. Even EBank plan on doing this.
I wouldn't want bond holders to end up arguing down the line with you over definitions of payouts, and 'because its says so in the offer'.
Unfortunately for yourself your past history has shown some attitude towards shareholders in that you will only do what it says in the offer document.
I think if you want all the bonds to be covered you should plug in some defined limits. Campaign For Real English if you like.
|
amarrcommander
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 03:07:00 -
[24]
Anyone that gives TS any isk that expects anything other than headaches is an absolute fool. Don't take my word for it, look at the happy share holders in the past 3 reports.
|
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 03:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: amarrcommander Anyone that gives TS any isk that expects anything other than headaches is an absolute fool. Don't take my word for it, look at the happy share holders in the past 3 reports.
Black Sun Empire |
Kwint Sommer
Caldari XERCORE
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 03:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: amarrcommander Anyone that gives TS any isk that expects anything other than headaches is an absolute fool. Don't take my word for it, look at the happy share holders in the past 3 reports.
If you're trying to scare investors off, there's no need to send folks so far away. Just refer them to the above, namely,
Originally by: TornSoul @Treelox
Thank you - hopefully that helps someone.
@Amarr Citizen 155
Once again : Read the damn posts.
I've already explained why that scenario is highly improbable.
And to top it of, I've even given my best estimate, based on previous experience, as what the expected run time of the bonds will be.
Now go troll somewhere else please...
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 08:45:00 -
[27]
@cosmoray
"Are the loans, collateral backed?" Yes - As is all BMBE loans. Why would this be any different all of a sudden...
"The only problem I have with no term limits is that it can all become quite fuzzy. Its your interpretation on which of our bonds get applied to which loans." Let me quote Treelox...
Originally by: Treelox
The Treelox Interpretation
Isk raised via bonds is tied to a specific loan, as principle of that loan is paid off so will the bond be. Bonds will be paid off in order, from highest cost to BMBE to lowest cost to BMBE.
And I've already at length explained a best estimate on run time.
BIG Lottery |
Rho'varo
Minmatar Diversified Operational Services
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 18:21:00 -
[28]
I'm not yet a BMBE investor, so although I've taken a look at recent BMBE threads, please forgive me if I've missed a clarification of this issue elsewhere.
With both bonds and shares outstanding, which would be paid out first in the event that the investments sour and the enterprise goes bankrupt? The bonds or the "guaranteed" value of the shares?
I understand that this sort of extreme calamity might be considered very unlikely, but I'm curious as to what policy BMBE would take on the issue.
Recall that in RL, a bond would typically be paid out before shares, since the shares represent the "residual value" of the enterprise (i.e., the value after all the other obligations are discharged).
|
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 18:46:00 -
[29]
Haven't thought about this before tbh - But bonds before shares, as you say it's typically done in RL, makes sense.
BIG Lottery |
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 21:58:00 -
[30]
50 Billion @ 3%.
Please don't outbid me with your 10B TS =(
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |