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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
baltec1
1070
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Posted - 2012.04.11 01:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Zverofaust wrote:I have recently taken up the olympic flame of ganking Hulks and I must say they are pretty ******* ridiculous. My t2 fit Catalyst rocking overheated neutron smoked a Hulk in a 0.8 system before CONCORD even showed up on grid. And I probably could've done it in a t1 fit. 5 minutes ratting in nullsec and I recovered the ISK and sec loss. I'm all for making Hulks gankable in highsec but I'd like to see doing it require something like a gang of what I was flying, or maybe a high-DPS cruiser (Thorax) or BC hull to do it.
Hulks very rarely are tanked. You will know when you slam into a supertank hulk |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[
Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship. |
baltec1
1070
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Posted - 2012.04.11 02:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:All the industrail sector ships need an HP bump, and a big bump at that. If they have to cost more in minerals, so be it.
No, they simply require people to tank them. |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote: Supertankers would have a better tank if their job required them to be in an asteroid belt full of hostile battleships.
A job which a hulk can do without breaking a sweat. |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Just say you like paper thin tanks on hulks, don't hide it. :)
Having lost a gang of six destroyers to a supertank hulk, I can only agree |
baltec1
1070
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Posted - 2012.04.11 02:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:yeah that 12 mill isk must have really burnt...
Not as badly as the two smartbombing domi that tried after us |
baltec1
1073
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Posted - 2012.04.11 11:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: What other ship needs to lose weapons in order to be able to fill mids and lows with tank sufficient for its role?
Just about every single cruiser.
Quote: As has been said in this thread already: a miner is actually better off flying a Covetor than a Hulk, because the Covetor can be flown with a maximum yield fitting, platinum insurance, and the inevitable loss will be more than compensated for by the difference in income between that Covetor and the max-tanked Hulk it replaced.
So fly the covetor then. I'll stick with a supertank hulk which does not need replacing whenever a destroyer turns up. |
baltec1
1073
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Posted - 2012.04.11 11:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote: True ..
BUT PvP guys like to whine like sissys "risk v reward".
Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship ..
not enough risk for the reward!
It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners.
After CCP buffed the Destroyer, Projectil and Hybrid guns ... they destroyed any balance for Mining+Industrial ships.
Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships).
No. You must fit a tank to stop them. |
baltec1
1073
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Posted - 2012.04.11 11:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:
Arguably, the Covetor should be the best miner in terms of m3 pulled for normal rocks and the Hulk should do something different like either being a tanky mofo.
It is. The problem is people set it up for max mining then whine when their ship with no tanking mods at all gets torn apart by a destroyer. |
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baltec1
1073
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Posted - 2012.04.11 12:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
A hulk will tank 33k which is in the same range as most t2 cruisers. |
baltec1
1073
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Posted - 2012.04.11 12:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.
[Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank.
You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger. |
baltec1
1073
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Posted - 2012.04.11 12:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:
My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.
If you tank it correctly then you will survive all but the most dedicated gankers. |
baltec1
1074
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Posted - 2012.04.11 13:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.
That was about belt rats. If you want a pvp tank go look at the one I posted. |
baltec1
1074
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Posted - 2012.04.11 14:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:
If you're talking just belt rats in hi-sec then you don't need to tank a hulk, just let your combat drones get rid of them. But belt rats in hi-sec are not the real threat to a Hulk these days.
Hence my fit which can take an arty tornado and just keep on smiling. |
baltec1
1074
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:
Yeah, but if you get your tank up that high, what it's supposed to be doing is the problem...your yield will be utter crap, kinda negating the point of the ship. It's meant for one thing and one thing only as you say, but if you FIT it for that one thing, you can't survive anything.
The ship gets a 7.5% bonus per level to resists. Even when fitted for max tank the hulk is a better miner than a covetor while being much harder to kill. This is the problem with you people, you simply cannot grasp that you have a choice of defence or better yield. The only reason destroyers can kill hulks is because people chose to have no tank at all. |
baltec1
1075
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Posted - 2012.04.11 16:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why are you lot comparing the hulk to t2 battlecruisers? The hulk is more of a cruiser sized ship... |
baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.11 16:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:My only problem with a Hulk...
If it is fit for a reasonable tank (solo mind you), it has less yield and less tank than a mining fit BS.
Can you post that fit? I cant seem to get a BS close to a hulk. |
baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.11 16:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:When exploiters, gankbears and a number of assorted wankers keep arguing for stupid fits and unreasonable "precuations", in an effort to not change a class of ships, you know there is a balance issue.
And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted? |
baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.11 16:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
MIrple wrote:This should shouldn't have to Fit Faction or Dead Space mods just to have a tank.
They don't... |
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baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.11 16:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship.
It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated. |
baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.11 16:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:
So because you have no data to refute my argument you will resort to ridicule because it shows, in detail, an uncomfortable truth. This ship cannot tank. You can try to buff EHP with a resist tank but unless you throw absolutely everything into tank you cannot do a fit that can survive an attack by a single tornado in a 0.7 or lower system.
The idea that players (not bots) are going to self select to be victims by flying such a ship is absurd. If high sec mining is going to be the source for low end mins, Trit may well hit 20.
Name a stationary T2 cruiser that can survive a 1400mm tornado without putting on a hefty tank. |
baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.11 17:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
And it cost how much?
+10 to 15 mil on top on the hulk. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway.
On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come
insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing
for near of the above ship yield.
Anyone see something wrong? No, eh?
You are stupid to try and mine in hulkageddon/BAT interdiction area?
The hardest mining ship in empire to gank is the veldought and even that docks up in hulkageddon. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all?
Because it won't die? |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all?
Because it won't die? LOL, sure it will, and with the more expensive tank, it is likely to drop more, that makes it worth sending in a couple of extra trashers.
You would need a least 20 of them, most likely more. There is a reason why my hulk is 3 years old. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: You would need a least 20 of them, most likely more. There is a reason why my hulk is 3 years old.
Mine is six, what's your point?
Just punching holes in whatever argument you are trying here. Hulks tank fine its players that are the weak link here. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Just punching holes in whatever argument you are trying here. Hulks tank fine its players that are the weak link here. Oh it's the players that are at fault, that old canard just doesn't fly. Try it on a noobie who has never heard it before. The picture may very well change after crimewatch 2 is implemented, we'll have to wait and see.
So its not the pilots fault for not tanking their ship? |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:
CCP just ignored (as usual) the influence on Industrials and Miners (as CCP hate Indutrials and Miners, we all know it).
Because CCP never stopped insurance payouts for concorded ships... |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning?
I expect you to use the grey matter. If you do not tank your ship and then get blown up by a destroyer it is entirely your fault. The ganker simply took advantage of your stupidity/greed. |
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baltec1
1076
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Posted - 2012.04.12 09:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient. |
baltec1
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 10:31:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You still risk losing the Hulk while it's permanently gimped.
You still get an insurance zero cost on losing the covetor while it's maxed.
Result: always zero cost for covetor, still risk to get the hulk dead to somebody more motivated to pop it.
Losing a t2 fitted covetor is never free.
In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. That only happens in hulkageddon or in an ice interdiction. So while destroyers pop your covetors for profit I will be in a hulk safe from all but the most extream ganks making more money than you. |
baltec1
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 11:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote:baltec1 wrote:In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. Shouldn't the gankers have time for at least two arty salvoes before concord show up in a 0.5 or 0.6?
The joys of 0.7 space. |
baltec1
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 11:14:00 -
[34] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Shadowsword wrote:baltec1 wrote:In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. Shouldn't the gankers have time for at least two arty salvoes before concord show up in a 0.5 or 0.6? Not only that, but you would use EMP L to pop his Hulk. Baltec1 will fit his Hulk with 3 Inv. Fields II and an SSE II. He will go mining like this for a few days until he realizes how boring mining is. So he will drop an Inv. Field and put a survey scanner back into his Hulk so that he can at least see which asteroids to pick. He then will continue mining for another few days until he gets sick of constantly docking up and because his cargohold just does not do it. He then puts cargo expanders into his low-slots so that he can stay in the belt a little longer. Can one blame him for doing it? No. But one can slap him every single time he tries to get a bit more fun out of his mining ship. I can laugh about it, but I cannot call it fair.
Silly nonsence. I mine while I mine in minecraft so I don't get bored
Also I go for 1 MSE, 2x invuln, an EM resist amp, DCU II, sheild expander rigs and implants. |
baltec1
1083
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And that's why many sh!t fit their exhumers. More yield (fitting harvesting upgrades is easier with rest T1) and way way less profitable for the gankers.
Its the **** fit exhumers that provide the best profits for a ganker. |
baltec1
1084
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty.
Absolution, Aeon, Anathema, Apocalypse, Arazu, Arbitrator, Archon, Ares, Armageddon, Astarte, Atron, Augoror, Avatar, Badger, Badger Mark II, Bantam, Basilisk, Bellicose, Bestower, Blackbird, Breacher, Brutix, Burst, Bustard, Buzzard, Caracal, Catalyst, Celestis, Cerberus, Cheetah, Claw, Claymore, Coercer, Condor, Cormorant, Crane, Crow, Crucifier, Crusader, Curse, Cyclone, Damnation, Deimos, Dominix, Drake, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Erebus, Eris, Executioner, Exequror, Falcon, Ferox, Flycatcher, Griffin, Guardian, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Hawk, Hel, Helios, Heretic, Heron, Hoarder, Hound, Huginn, Hyperion, Imicus, Impel, Incursus, Inquisitor, Ishkur, Ishtar, Iteron, Iteron Mark II, Iteron Mark III, Iteron Mark IV, Iteron Mark V, Jaguar, Kestrel, Lachesis, Leviathan, Malediction, Maller, Mammoth, Manticore, Mastodon, Maulus, Megathron, Merlin, Moa, Moros, Muninn, Naglfar, Navitas, Nemesis, Nidhoggur, Nighthawk, Nyx, Occator, Omen, Oneiros, Osprey, Phoenix, Pilgrim, Probe, Prophecy, Prorator, Prowler, Punisher, Purifier, Ragnarok, Rapier, Raptor, Raven, Retribution, Revelation, Rifter, Rook, Rokh, Rupture, Sabre, Sacrilege, Scimitar, Scorpion, Scythe, Sigil, Slasher, Sleipnir, Stabber, Stiletto, Taranis, Tempest, Thanatos, Thorax, Thrasher, Tormentor, Tristan, Typhoon, Vagabond, Vengeance, Vexor, Viator, Vigil, Vulture, Wolf, Wreathe, Wyvern and the Zealot. |
baltec1
1085
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:^ pretty sure you missed a few...
Most likely. |
baltec1
1085
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
It appears I am not clear as to my intent with this. for that i apologize.
Name any other ship thats gimped deliberately while fleeted, to gain maximum survivabilty.
o7
I give you the same answer. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:some people just dont have life and just troll here all day long that Hulk is fine Hulk have tank just under the tank of empty beer can.
Tanks better than many t2 cruisers out there. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:^ which ones? hacs have better tanks... hics have better tanks... even a recon has a better tank...
i still think hulks should get a pg boost for a LSE...
but i am more pushing for a tech III subsystems for minning...
Stick a MWD and point into the mids of any sheild tanker and you impact its tank, any tracking and damage mods into the lows hits the tank of armour ships then puttin on the guns. Then there are the webs, target painters ect ect. It all can build up so you can easily sacrifice a lot of tank for what you need to do.
Even the insta cane only gets around 27k EHP buffer. The tank on a hulk is good. |
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baltec1
1086
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Posted - 2012.04.12 20:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: You shouldn't care about them because they won't fit tanks anyway and will die. You can then feel free to laugh at them.
Care about the people who would.
You can already tank them well and like anything its a choice of survivability or utility. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: How much utility did you throw on this fit, 6-7 Slots worth plus the grid to fit a good tank if so required.
I want 2 utility slots and a Destroyer sized Extender. Ships make sacrifices all the time but between the 2 lows and 4 mids this ship doesn't have a lot to sacrifice.
Do you think it needs more slots for more sacrifice options? Because 2 Utility Mods and a 4 slot tank where the biggest module is destroyer grade is not a lot to ask for from the best Mining Ship in the game.
Its worked perfectly fine for 6 or 7 years. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its worked perfectly fine for 6 or 7 years.
Same can be said about all the lower tier ships they are buffing in Inferno. Biggest boost they are giving them all is fitting... so they don't need to make so many sacrifices.
Many t1 cruisers are not working fine in combat and never have. The hulk has always done its job well and continues to do well. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: Not true, it can not tank Single Ganks unless it sacrifices all MLU.
It has worked because most people fly paper to get good yield as you have so eagerly stated.
Cruisers right now have ether insufficient damage or tank do to poor fitting which as you said isn't working fine.
They both could use this buff. I don't want to see Exhumers better, just more utility options.
The hulk is much like the diemost. Max damage and little tank or max tank and reduced firepower. If a maxtank hulk was dragging in very little ore then you might have a point. But it mines slightly better than most t2 fitted covetors while having a much larger buffer and a larger cargo hold to boot. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:54:00 -
[45] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:so... a little Cruisers have good stats and dont need buff (when you are comparing its tank with hulk that hulk dont need more HP) and now when they are getting buff now they are bad (because that would mean that hulk needs buff too) LOL... that are our EVE politicians
When was the last time you saw a Celestis or Augoror in pvp? |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:[quote=baltec1] Those 25k-32k figures for a Hulk that people have mentioned can only be had at all level 5 and by using every available slot including rigs for its tank. It is about as dull as the one mid-slot of a Covetor, which can only be used for a scanner. At least a Hurricane can be fitted in many different ways for what it is designed to do. The Hulk fits presented here are only a necessity. With the Hulk being the most popular ship, which is a questionable position for any ship in terms of game diversity, could easily get buffed to 50k eHP and it would not change a thing about its role. You are not going to see any alliances suddenly fighting in fleets of Hulks or fielding Hulks in the tournaments any time soon. Nor are you going to change the Hulks popularity by reducing its tank to 10k eHP. The Hulk's tank is not good, its price is not good and its popularity is not good. The Mackinaw is just as bad and the T1 mining ships are not helping either. So what if the Hulk had 50k eHP? Would it be too scary when some Hulk pilots now get all brave, fit warp core stabs and dare mining in low-sec?
There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.
It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.
It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship. industrial ships are not ship to ship combat ships but I can tank the hell out of a transport ship, but noooo a ship that mines in hostile space environments does not qualify for a ship with a need to defend itself lol. edit: I said ship far to many times in that sentence lol :D
A transport ship is designed for deep space convoy missions where you need a hefty tank. Back in the Days when you had to transport goods via gates and had no jump frieghters or carriers. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
And near god like beings with billions in the bank would not create enough market demand for some designer to profit from that demand?
The real world anaolgies fail.
Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them.
So you have a different context for "civilian industrial ship"?
If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard... |
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baltec1
1086
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Posted - 2012.04.12 21:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships. Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec. Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff. Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this?
The problem with your argument is that they CAN get a hefty tank on them and they have been in low sec and 0.0 for years. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard...
Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold?
Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 22:05:00 -
[53] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man.
Then we must have a lot of drowning men. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 22:10:00 -
[54] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship.
So blame the victim entirely, right?
Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 22:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?
We can blame the civilian ship building industry. You do recall where you said "It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship" So why does a civilian industrial ship. as you claim it is, not built for combat, have any ability to tank at all?
Just because its not a combat vessel doesn't mean they come with no amour plating or the ability to add to its defences. Its not the ships fault a pilot choses not to tank it. It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 22:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it. There is nobody else to blame. Except the fact that it is an industrial civilian ship, as you pointed out.
and this stops you from tanking it how? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 22:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: and this stops you from tanking it how?
Oh is there a point to putting on a two papers thin tank on a civilian industrial ship in what amounts to a near constant combat zone?
so a destroyer now has the firepower of 4 to 5 arty tornadoes? Are you really this stupid? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 22:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: so a destroyer now has the firepower of 4 to 5 arty tornadoes? Are you really this stupid?
So you want to insult and avoid the question. Got it.
I have answered your question 3 times now on this page. It is only right that I call you out on being stupid for saying stupid things. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 23:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. I see folks saying that 25-30k EHP is even more than some combat ships. Those ships can speed tank though, something that Hulks fat ass can't do.
Hulks dont need to speed tank. The window for killing them lasts only a few seconds meaning the gankers need to alpha it or kill it in only a handfull of shots. You can already tank a hulk to the point where people need to bring a lot of firepower to do this which puts a supertank hulk well out of the range of destoryers who do it for profit which eliminates just about all of the gankers. The ones who will bring a gang of tornadoes only do so in big events where its worth doing it.
Very rarely will people gank a supertank hulk just for the hell of it because it is very expensive to do so. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 23:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When I had low SP I fitted my 'cane very poorly yet it could tank level 4 missions easy mode. There's still posts of mine of that time on the eve-survival website to verify that. I even went to 0.0 on the same ship and guess what, I tanked 0.0 stuff with meta zero tank just fine.
I could still get well more than a hi sec 400M Hulk investment could ever hope to achieve, in a ship I paid 25M for.
So, why I am allowed to slack and be puny SP for a 'cane and get same or more income but I am meant to have 1-2 years of training for all those full tank skills + T2 mods skills before hitting the first roid?
Same reason why a 4 billion isk jump freighter cant do what your cane does. The hulk isnt a combat ship, that not its job. |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 23:31:00 -
[61] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
Well the destroyers recently got a pretty decent buff. What would it hurt to update a hulk?
The destroyers needed a buff to make them effective in combat. The hulk works perfectly fine. Thats the difference. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 08:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote: Same reason why a 4 billion isk jump freighter cant do what your cane does. The hulk isnt a combat ship, that not its job.
Nobody pretends an hulk to be a 'cane. But there's the "is this ship crap or not" skin feeling and I can safely say that a 'cane or drake are VERY good investments, those ships ROCK (and when I played them, they were just 25M), they handle nicely, they tank nicely, they just look "correct" and up to the task, everywhere from hi sec to 0.0 to WH. Now, I don't even want to think about how "up to the task" would be to have a mackinaw mining in 0.0. once a battleship spawn targets it. Yes it mines. That's it. The rest is completely crap, the ship does not feel "right", in the same way of flying an Amarr frigate without laser bonus just does not feel right even if they are overpowered when you fit turrets.
The Mackinaw getting a bit more CPU can be justified but the hulk does not need a buff as it can do its job fine right now. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 08:41:00 -
[63] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Last year, about this time, the Brutix was a status-quo ship for highsec ganking.... With the 16-22 second concord response times, it could output roughly 20k damage. At that time, a tank-fit hulk could easily with stand the assault, and even a fully tanked mackinaw had a marginal chance of survival. Since then, they have buffed blasters and introduced very ganky BC's. All together, these changes very much altered the balance between mining vessels and ganking vessels. Essentially, it is no longer possible to tank a Mackinaw enough to survive a full gank brutix, let alone a tier 3 BC. Even a fully tanked hulk needs heat, squad boosts, and/or implants to marginally survive against these ships. Essentially, the changes have taken away the ability to adequately tank exhumers. You may feel that an exhumer shouldn't be able to tank a tier 3 BC, perhaps because of the insurance nerf.... but I personally disagree. I think a marginal boost to the defense capabilities of these ships to give them a fitting option to tank a single BC is very much in line with this game.
The hulk can do just fine solo vs a brutix or T3. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 09:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
But yes, it'd be fun to see statistics about how many more mining ships get popped per day compared to pre-destroyers buff + T3 BCs introduction. I guess there are some, else I would not be always empty of 'nados BPCs to sell.
I'd say around the same when you take population growth into account. Tornadoes fill the roll of tempests and cost more given that you no longer get insurance. Destroyers now fill the roll the brutix used to fill because gankers have figured out that if you dont tank ships they can be killed for a profit by a destroyer.
Of course, on the 28th this will likely go up and spawn endless Ganking is too easy threads. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 15:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Well I don't see such a big population increase to justify the rise of BPC requests. Yes I also have Tempest BPO, it was not so hot.
Nados get used for way more than ganking |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 15:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
That's not going to happen.
- Hulk has worse align time than triple plated Abaddon - No covert ops cloak
Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport. |
baltec1
1089
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Posted - 2012.04.13 15:31:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:
A simple T2 fit it's at worst 2 cycles for a gank 720 T2 hotwizer Hurricane. 1 Volley for a simple Tornado. 2 Volley for a single T1 fitted Neutron Talos.
Can I see this tornado fit that can alpha a 33k tank with 80% resists? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 15:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:
^^ Baltec People are saying that a tornado gets two shots in high sec. thats two alphas.....heh
Not that guy
In any event arty nado can only do two vollies in 0.5 and 0.6 and even that isnt enough to kill a supertank hulk |
baltec1
1089
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Posted - 2012.04.13 15:51:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport. As far as I know DSTs have faster align time than triple plated Abaddon. I also know that it is possible to have quite tough tank on those things too. Way over 20k what a typical tanked Hulk has. - Abaddon: over 14 seconds - Hulk: over 16 seconds - Abaddon has 200k+ EHP - Hulk has only 20k+ EHP
So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship?
Incidently, the 800mm plated impel has a 20.4 second align time and thats a ship that is ment to be flying around hostile gates. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 15:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Then please look around in this very same forum, wait you posted in already, you know the guy in high sec ganking HULKS WITH A NEUTRON CATALYST SOLO ? @ monkey above : I almost don't mine anymore because makes a lot of time I've understood that buying pax stuff, buying meta 0->4 and reprocess with my perfect skills or buying shuttles/some ships gives me a higher yeld than you'll ever get from your Hulk. Nice try, come back latter, k?
Show me a neutron catalist that can kill a 29k buffer hulk |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 16:03:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Search by yourself the post (last week) of a crying ganker having a huge number or mining barges/exumers killed with a single Catalyst, was pretty funny. You posted in, you should remember the congrats you give right? bah, your 33K ehp story's geting old, go back to vfk probe those neutrals instead of writing silly stuff (tount heh)
The guy wiped out hulks that had no tank. Most of the kills were macks which also had either no tank or a very poor active tank. A 29k buffer hulk is immune to a destroyer. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 16:04:00 -
[72] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship? Someone just thought it would "replace T2 transport ships". I just wanted to show that with current stats it's not going to happen. Front line warship? Only place I can see Abaddons is Amarr main station undock. No-one is stupid enough to use armor ships in combat. It's only Drakes, Tengus, Hurricanes and weird shield tanked Gallente ships.
Clearly you have not been to 0.0 for some time. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 16:06:00 -
[73] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds.
Concord will drop in at 10 seconds in 0.7 space and around 20 seconds in 0.6-0.5. That gives an arty nado only two vollies to kill its target. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 16:10:00 -
[74] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. And the eHP fits given here are only useful against a particular gank, but in general is the tank just weak.
One can take out a cap with a frigate, if you let it. It is not a smart argument. Maybe when you want people to be smarter, then start with yourself.
You need at least 4 nados to kill a supertank hulk in 0.7 space. How exactly is this not enough ehp? |
baltec1
1089
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Posted - 2012.04.13 16:57:00 -
[75] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:9sec rof with 1400's
yea, thats not possible, not by a long shot. |
baltec1
1090
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:42:00 -
[76] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
And as I have stated several times and other intelligent memebers of EVE. Hulk are bad.
In what way? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:43:00 -
[77] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
That's why they do it for fun.
So where are they? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:46:00 -
[78] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is nothing extream about fitting a T2 tank. Fit your T2s the way you like. If this is how you fit them then I know a desperate man.
No, its called being smart. Desperate is crying to CCP to change a perfectly fine ship because you want the tank without making any sacrifices to your isk flow. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:54:00 -
[79] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, desperate is when you do not know what the other one is saying and your brain runs off into dreamland where all people cry and do not talk.
So wake up and stop crying about the hulk not having a tank when it clearly does. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
As I have already stated. And with legitimate arguements. My opinion will remain that hulk's are in a bad place. You disagree, thats your perogative.
All you come up with is tank tank tank. What you are totally forgetting is a combat ship, can also attack attack attack when ganked. This is also a form of defence. Combat ships have Tank and guns to protect themselves. That puts the Hulk in a pretty damned disadvantage i would say.
The hulk has the best guns of all. Concord. |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 21:01:00 -
[81] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wake up and stop crying about the hulk not having a tank when it clearly does. Again, you are just desperate. No one said the mining ships have no tank. Your head is still far away in dreamland ... maybe you should take a break from posting.
No matter how many times you say something vague about being desperate, the fact still is the hulk does just fine. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 21:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, and you have been given many arguments.
All of which have been proven to be wrong. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 21:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ildryn wrote:Now you are reaching.... Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps.
Thats the kind of firepower a vindicator gets... |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.13 21:22:00 -
[84] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps. Not really, no. Yes, it can. Cormack's magstabs, rof and small hybrid dmg implants. Of course you have to be in Wolf-Rayet C6.
Officer magstabs... |
baltec1
1091
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Posted - 2012.04.14 08:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Plus 1 wrote:Defense against what? Mission runners almost never avoid ganks by killing potential gankers. I meant for mission runners doing what they are doing. My statement is also true for most combat ships and I am not talking about ganking in general, because my understanding is that every ship can get ganked. The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state. What people do with the extra power grid is their business. Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims?
This pathetic state being able to feild a tank able to fend off 3 1400mm tornados easily and also having the option of being the best miner money can buy. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:07:00 -
[86] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Here is a question.
How would giving a Hulk extra HP, change the game for the worse?
All I see, is Gankers having to be a little bit more organized. Which is a good thing yes?. it's an MMO afterall . Fleet play and all that.
Please tell me the down sides of this.
Aside from being utterly unnessary and a waste of dev time needed on ships which are broken it would mean hulks could become all but untouchable in high sec. They would also stop being a ship of choice. Right now you can have a great tank or go for great yeild with drawbacks to both options. Buff the hulk and it becomes great at everything. Theres is also no point at all in fixing something that is not broken because you inevatably break it. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:09:00 -
[87] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:This pathetic state being able to feild a tank able to fend off 3 1400mm tornados easily and also having the option of being the best miner money can buy. How do you get 50k EHP without spending billions on officer mods? Edit: That's of course if they only get one volley/Tornado. If they're lucky, double that. 33k is enough |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:21:00 -
[88] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:33k is enough Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage. 17000 x 3 = 51000 If they get two volleys: 51000 x 2 = 102000
They dont hit for 17000 |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
Kreeia Dgore wrote:Why the hell should we fit hulks to max tank? If we do that, the yield will be lollish. The hulk isn't a ship meant to be tank-fitted. It has no reliable resist bonuses, lousy ammount of shields/armor/structure hp and even too few slots to apply a decent tank AND be able to do what the ship was designed for. We CAN do a turtle hulkie, but then, why the hell, the ship is supposed to mine? If it doesn't mine well, which turtle hulkie simply doesn't, it is as good as useless. This whole problem rose from ccp buffing destroyers, adding superganking BCs and ignoring affect it has on miners. Bots dont care, living players, which will be the most crucial part in mineral business after inferno, are seriously downgraded by that. => Not a matter of players not fitting well, it is a matter of devs neglecting something. And like that it should be wiewed and handled.
It will mine just as much as a t2 covetor with a t2 mining upgrade and get a bigger cargo hold and a much much better buffer. Of course, you dont have to go max tank and simply go half half. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:They dont hit for 17000 Yes, they do.
Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:39:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. In highsec.
Show the fit. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:41:00 -
[92] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:It will mine just as much as a t2 covetor with a t2 mining upgrade and get a bigger cargo hold and a much much better buffer. Covetor with one MLU pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk. Hell, even Rokh pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk.
SupertankHulk gets a built in MLU II and 3 t2 modulated strip miners. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:44:00 -
[93] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. In highsec. T2 guns, 5% dmg implant, and yes, perfect gunnery skills.
Still not close with a +6 implant. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 09:59:00 -
[94] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.
But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?
A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up. |
baltec1
1091
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:Show me that Rokh fit then, because my EFT clearly tells me something quite different. Use T2 mining crystals.
It can't. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:04:00 -
[96] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient. You'll still get blown up though, and it will cost you a HELL OF A LOT MORE than a Covetor, oh and you'll get your money back for the lost ship. Also Covetors aren't as big a target. In simple terms, Covetors are a LOT more cost effective in the scenario you have given. Hulks will die anyway and will leave a large gaping hole in your wallet.
Name a destroyer than can burn through 33k of 80% resist buffer before concord shows up. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:07:00 -
[97] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up. Pal can do ~15k volleys (perfect hit) with T2 Tachs and Gleam. You say Arty can't do higher volleys.
I say your pal is either a capital pilot or a lier. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:16:00 -
[98] - Quote
Paladin, gets just over 7k alpha with officer heatsinks in all of the lows and a t2 damage rig. Lieing to someone who has flown a nightmare for years in not the best of ideas. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:21:00 -
[99] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
I dont know who you are directing this to, but I am quoted here as well.
Not once have I given numbers. Not once have I said the counter arguement is wrong. Not once have I disrespected those that have given a valid counter aguement.
Infact if you had read all 48 pages, I somewhat agree with them. I dont care if it's buffed or not. I just believe the hulk is not in a good place for fleet roles.
So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.
I wasnt |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:24:00 -
[100] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.
It has enough CPU to use better lasers.
You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it. |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:35:00 -
[101] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it. I want to see your officer Tornado alpha'ing Rokh with 72k EHP. And that's therm hole by the way.
41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive. The hulk would tank more. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:45:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive. And I thought I had crap shield skills... 3x LSE II 1x AIF II 1x EM Ward II 3x CDFE I 71k against therm.
And it now mines less than a tanked hulk and has a laughable cargo hold.. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:55:00 -
[103] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:And it now mines less than a tanked hulk. More than tank fit Hulk. Ever heard of Mining Laser Upgrades?
Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 10:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Still the same three guys are afraid of the current hulk??? And writing the same old lies and only their "facts" are true? Hulk is good, everything was boosted over the years and industry equipment is still perfectly fine
Fixed. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2012.04.14 11:02:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo. Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game.
The vast bulk of miners however do mine alone. |
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