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Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:36:00 -
[481] - Quote
lol lvl 2 mission artifact recovery, I warp in and start killing miners "ah so this is what its like" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:38:00 -
[482] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules.
Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0.
moreso cause if you shoot them first YOU die
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.04.11 22:38:00 -
[483] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Karim alRashid wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
Take the griffin, and compare it to the Falcon. Both have the same roles. do you stop at the griffin for your ewar game?
No, of course, but not because I want to own a Falcon, but because Falcon is a better tool fo achieving my goals. Exactly. Thats why people buy the hulk. It offers the best potential for their goals. It's their "top of the range". It's their final goal. Why would miners stop at the Precuror?
I'm not sure what point are you trying to make.
I said acquiring gear is not a goal and you said it's important part of the game, to which I agree, but it still does not contradict the statement that acquiring gear is not a goal by itself.
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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
83
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Posted - 2012.04.11 22:40:00 -
[484] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:No, if you do not read the devblogs on a regular basis then it is your loss and not mine. No, it's your loss because it means you cannot support your claims, and we can summarily dismiss them as nonsense. So no, cost is not a factor in balance.
Who are you speaking on behalf of, or is it all about you ? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:44:00 -
[485] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Who are you speaking on behalf of, or is it all about you ? Everyone. Onus probandi is nasty that wayGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:02:00 -
[486] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:She or he is in disbelieve over almost everything. I will certainly not dig through tons of devblogs, patch notes and other stuff just to make them believe.
Tip's only goal is to have easily blown up tear factories. There's nothing more to it than that. Any argument that does not fit into the old rusty "eve is hard" mold is ignored. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:02:00 -
[487] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:She or he is in disbelieve over almost everything. I will certainly not dig through tons of devblogs, patch notes and other stuff just to make them believe. Then you shouldn't make grandiose claims about what CCP has said.
Quote:I wonder why people suddenly fail to remember the changes to the moon mats for example. Because those changes had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with market efficiency GÇö specifically to remove unwanted bottlenecks in the entire T2 production line, which were then, inevitably, replaced by new bottlenecks.
So no, cost is not a factor in balance.
Quote:And now Tippia pretends to have forgotten about it. No, I remember it just fine. So fine, in fact, that unlike you, I remember that it had nothing to do with balancing ships or items. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:03:00 -
[488] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:
Sorry, the post is entirely correct. Acquiring gear is not a goal, but means.
This is purely your opinion.
Getting a shiny ship for me may be a means but also a goal. I will never go PvP in a State Raven but you can stay sure I'd get one if I wanted.
I bought a mack just because I liked the color and the animation and the blue of the laser.
I bought a Maelstrom because I think it's cool with 3D glasses. Even now that I can fly a Vargur I still keep the Maelstrom because I like it. My personal aestethic goal was acquired.
I go around with an overkill T2 ship most of the time even if I don't need it, because I feel good.
I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:07:00 -
[489] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Because those changes had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with market efficiency GÇö specifically to remove unwanted bottlenecks in the entire T2 production line, which were then, inevitably, replaced by new bottlenecks.
So no, cost is not a factor in balance. Yes, those changes were made to reduce the costs of T2 ships. There was no other need to remove the bottleneck. Like you say, it is all only a matter of demand and offer. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:10:00 -
[490] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote: High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .
which is funny cause 99% of the time you say that you get trolled/flamed to death FOR saying it
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6013
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:13:00 -
[491] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:This is purely your opinion.
Getting a shiny ship for me may be a means but also a goal. I will never go PvP in a State Raven but you can stay sure I'd get one if I wanted. Sure, but at that point, things like performance, usefulness, and balance become rather trivial matters, do they not? You're after the item itself, not its use. If you're in that mode, then price/performance ratios become rather irrelevant and the price, alone, becomes the thing that has to be GÇ£conqueredGÇ¥, so a high price GÇö no matter how awful a thing you get for it GÇö is the draw.
Quote:I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal. The distinction that he's trying to make, I believe, is this: is the Hulk the goal, or is it the top-of-the-line mining the Hulk enables? Granted, the player might not consciously make the distinction, but isn't it more likely that it's actually the latter that is the goal, and the Hulk is just a means toward that goal?
Whitehound wrote:Yes, those changes were made to reduce the costs of T2 ships. GǪwhich means it had nothing to do with balance, since the ships themselves did not change in any way. So still no, cost is not a factor in balance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:14:00 -
[492] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lady Spank wrote: High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .
which is funny cause 99% of the time you say that you get trolled/flamed to death FOR saying it That is because a forum is a dangerous place to post the truth. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:15:00 -
[493] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Tip's only goal is to have easily blown up tear factories. Incorrect, of course, but keep piling up those fallacies GÇö they will really help your (complete lack of) argument.
If the argument isn't one you like, you ignore it anyway. This has been pointed out by a number of people over the past. I'm sure you'll ignore that too. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:15:00 -
[494] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote: The original statement stated, EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Which is incorrect.
So you claim the opposite, that EvE is a game of acquiring gear, that the ultimate goal of EvE is to posses some piece of equipment?
This is certainly not my goal and have never heard CCP promoting and advertising the game that way. Quite the opposite, the game is promoted as a game where what you DO matters, not a game where what you OWN matters.
Quote: To achieve advancement,you need better quality ships. You cannot run lvl 4 missions in a T1 frigate.
False. I need better quality ship in order to tackle more difficult tasks, not in order to achieve some abstract "advancement".
Quote: If you choose to fly a rifter throughout your EvE career. that would be your preogarative. It will mean you negate a huge part of the game.
Yes, but this in no way supports the argument that the goal of EvE is to acquire gear.
Quote: A Hulk is the pinnacle ship of Mining. So a Miners ultimate ship to fly "goal", is a Hulk. Which validates Vaerah V's arguement.
It may be their intermediate goal, but certainly not their "endgame".
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Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:15:00 -
[495] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪwhich means it had nothing to do with balance, since the ships themselves did not change in any way. So still no, cost is not a factor in balance. It was one of many changes CCP did to address price balances. It was one of the greater ones I can remember. It is enough to proof that the price of an item is subject to game changes. QED. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6013
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:21:00 -
[496] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:If the argument isn't one you like, you ignore it anyway. This has been pointed out by a number of people over the past. I'm sure you'll ignore that too. You mean like how you ignored my question about what argument you were referring to?
Whitehound wrote:It was one of many changes CCP did to address price balances. Two different things. They just adjusted the resource requirements, not the balance.
Quote:It is enough to proof that the price of an item is subject to game changes. QED. No, not QED, because that wasn't what was in question. What was in question was whether cost was a factor in balance. Hint: it isn't. They didn't adjust the moon goo to change the ship balance GÇö they adjusted it to remove bottlenecks and make the market more efficient. The ship balance remained exactly the same as before because the ships themselves were left untouched. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:26:00 -
[497] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Sure, but at that point, things like performance, usefulness, and balance become rather trivial matters, do they not? You're after the item itself, not its use. If you're in that mode, then price/performance ratios become rather irrelevant and the price, alone, becomes the thing that has to be GÇ£conqueredGÇ¥, so a high price GÇö no matter how awful a thing you get for it GÇö is the draw.
The other guy and expecially you, are pretending to legislate how everybody else should play. Like broken records. I have news for you: nobody cares.
I make or buy what I make or buy because I like to. The price tag is no issue since something has not to be expensive to be coveted. If I want to make money to afford it I have just to play the market or something financially profitable.
Some of the financially profitable things could be a ship, and a ship that does good at its role. It's a plus. For many, the top ship for what they like IS their goal, because this is the spaceships game. Yes, even a stupid mining ship can be the goal, because not everybody are out to kill each other. I know enough hard core miners who go in ecstasy talking about having bought the mining COSMOS implant or having put some stupidly expensive mod on their Hulk.
It's their game, it's their end game, it's their goal and nobody has the right to disrespect them. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:27:00 -
[498] - Quote
Tippia wrote: You mean like how you ignored my question about what argument you were referring to?
You mean the question about why I think your arguments have the depth of a dry dinner plate? |
Whitehound
29
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:27:00 -
[499] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, not QED, because that wasn't what was in question. What was in question was whether cost was a factor in balance. Hint: it isn't. They didn't adjust the moon goo to change the ship balance GÇö they adjusted it to remove bottlenecks and make the market more efficient. Yes, you did question it. Actually you denied it, but this is not the point. CCP did respond to the players' demand to do something about the prices and they changed it. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:29:00 -
[500] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal.
I can't. Unless they are really dumb or listen to wrong people on forums.
When I was 6 months old I wanted to be able to fly a T2 fit sniper battleship. Not because I liked the ship model or texture. Not because I wanted to poses it (to "poses" some record in some database, heh). Not because I would obtain some sense of "achievement" (what achievement, you just have to wait it out).
But because back then it was the proper tool for achieving my then current goal of participating in big fleet battles.
This is the line of thinking I'd like to suggest to new and old players alike, if they want to have fun in this particular game.
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Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:32:00 -
[501] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lady Spank wrote: High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .
which is funny cause 99% of the time you say that you get trolled/flamed to death FOR saying it Normaly I don't agree with Lady Spank but this time he is right :(
Even in -1.0 systems you can fit a tank on your Hulk which is good enough to tank the belt rats. As you KNOW "neutral = bad" you will never stay in a belt with anythink but blue in local. This isn't posible in high as you couldn't mine at all with all the neutrals there. And most times you have a 5+++ system warning time via intels.
With all the safty of local+intel you can fit realy expensive stuff (pith A-type small booster + hardener) with very low risk to ever lose it. In high sec it will just make you an even brighter target.
In addition you can mine high end ore which improves your ISK/h imens.
You have just one risk: how to haul the ore to Jita which is no problem with jump frighter. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:33:00 -
[502] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Gotta agree with most of the above. It's a mining ship not a battleship or even a cruiser. You might find trucks full of expensive equipment in a warzone, but that doesn't mean it can or should have the defences of a tank. The hulk is designed to extract ore quickly and absolutely nothing else. If it had an amazing tank it would be unrealistic IMHO. Then why is it's ore extraction less than twice that of a mining Abaddon with very high EHP? Or mining Rokh. You mean almost twice as much ?
not even close...
~1300 m3 per minute in a rokh and ~1700 m3 per minute in a hulk......not even close to 2x as much |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6016
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:41:00 -
[503] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The other guy and expecially you, are pretending to legislate how everybody else should play. I'm not dictating anything GÇö I'm asking you a couple of questions.
If gear is really the goal, then doesn't performance and balance and all that stuff take a back seat? If gear is really the goal, doesn't price become a challenge, rather than something that needs to be justified? If gear is really the goal, doesn't the activity that may or may not accompany it become more of an after-thought?
Quote:I make or buy what I make or buy because I like to. The price tag is no issue since something has not to be expensive to be coveted. If I want to make money to afford it I have just to play the market or something financially profitable. This seems to answer the second question with a GÇ£yesGÇ¥.
Quote:Some of the financially profitable things could be a ship, and a ship that does good at its role. It's a plus. For many, the top ship for what they like IS their goal, because this is the spaceships game. Yes, even a stupid mining ship can be the goal, because not everybody are out to kill each other. I know enough hard core miners who go in ecstasy talking about having bought the mining COSMOS implant or having put some stupidly expensive mod on their Hulk. And this is where that distinction matters: what you're talking about here is gear as means to an end, not an end in and of itself. The miner wants to be the top miner, so he needs the top ship/top implant/top droneGǪ not because it's the top ship [etc], but because it lets him be the top miner GÇö it a means towards that end. it may be a purely academic distinction, but it sits right at the hart of the matter of what the actual goal is: the gear or the activity.
Adunh Slavy wrote:You mean the question about why I think your arguments have the depth of a dry dinner plate? So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
Whitehound wrote:Yes, you did question it. Actually you denied it, but this is not the point. CCP did respond to the players demand to do something about the prices and they did. No, I never questioned it. I questioned your assertion that CCP said that price was a balancing factor GÇö an assertion you have not been able to back up. This is something vastly different from prices being subject to game changes, which was never in question until you brought it up as GÇ£proofGÇ¥ for them affecting balance (never mind that you didn't in any way link those changes to any actual balance changes). You're begging the question. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:43:00 -
[504] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal.
I can't. Unless they are really dumb or listen to wrong people on forums. When I was 6 months old I wanted to be able to fly a T2 fit sniper battleship. Not because I liked the ship model or texture. Not because I wanted to poses it (to "poses" some record in some database, heh). Not because I would obtain some sense of "achievement" (what achievement, you just have to wait it out). But because back then it was the proper tool for achieving my then current goal of participating in big fleet battles. This is the line of thinking I'd like to suggest to new and old players alike, if they want to have fun in this particular game.
There is this incredible thing called personal taste.
And education too, as they will never call you dumb just because your own preferences don't match with their perceived must do or must be. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:46:00 -
[505] - Quote
Maybe it's time for a dedicated endgame highsec mining ship.
Orca without tractor and gank link bonus but 8 standart T2 miners which get 200% range bonus?
- Hybrid weapons changed - Projektil weapons changed - some combat ships changed - new combat ships where introduced - now it's time to tune Mining+Industrial ships to the combat changes Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:48:00 -
[506] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
ROFL - you have more than proven you are not worth wasting time upon. When you decide to debate honestly, I'll do something other than poke you with this pointed stick. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
294
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:49:00 -
[507] - Quote
End-game null-sec mining ship:
-COVOPS Miner, so you can steal ore right from under the nullbears' noses and transport it to high-sec. Hey, null is supposed to be full of competition right? Maybe this way this statement will have a grain of truth to it.
-High-Sec Miner: 100k EHP, more cargo hold (so you don't have to jetcan), less yield. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:50:00 -
[508] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Imagine this, maybe their ultimate goal is to participate in big mining fleets like yours was to join big fleet battles.
Imagine this, it is what I was suggesting all along. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:50:00 -
[509] - Quote
At the end of the day this thread comes down to this:
Some of the spineless twits want to grow their wallets AFK in a totally risk-free environment in a ship that's basically impervious to attack.
The Hulk is not the ship for them. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
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Posted - 2012.04.11 23:50:00 -
[510] - Quote
Oh and just as a side note.
Mineral price is allready and new skys. With Hulkgeddon it will reach new dimansions. Be prepared to pay 100m for a Drake or Hurrican and 400m for your favorit battleship ;). Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
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