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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
254
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
never minned a day in my life other than that mission that made me mine once...
so i was looking at the hulk today and was wondering why there are so many high sec bear tears... when i noticed it had this awesome resist bonus profile but it cant fit a bloody LSE?!?!??!
either fix the damn ship ccp or add the 5th subsystem to TIII ships that are indy/minning based... shesh! |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
561
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Suicide gank of T3 miner? Yes, please. http://blog.beyondreality.se/Incursion-hose Remove all incursions from hisec |
Bane Necran
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah, Hulks are gankbait.
I find actually being at the keyboard improves your odds of survival, though. |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
136
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yeah, Hulk is a T2 BC sized ship with a sub-cruiser tank. Fricken pathetic and should be addressed.
I do not advocate making Exhumers with super-tanks but at least something respectable for their size, cost and tech level.
Nothing clever at this time. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
182
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pretty much that's all the Hulk needs in the way of buffing, is a bigger power grid to fit LSEs. UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
rigs...? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5986
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Zverofaust
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
73
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
I have recently taken up the olympic flame of ganking Hulks and I must say they are pretty ******* ridiculous. My t2 fit Catalyst rocking overheated neutron smoked a Hulk in a 0.8 system before CONCORD even showed up on grid. And I probably could've done it in a t1 fit. 5 minutes ratting in nullsec and I recovered the ISK and sec loss. I'm all for making Hulks gankable in highsec but I'd like to see doing it require something like a gang of what I was flying, or maybe a high-DPS cruiser (Thorax) or BC hull to do it. |
JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
This was ages ago, but still makes me laugh.
I think it was in 2006 if I remember correctly. My corp at the time was part of the ASCN and we had a mining op going on in null. HULKS were still pretty rare at that time (and a lot more expensive than now), and our CEO had just purchased one and swore up and down that they had a great tank.
He asked us to open fire on him to test it.
We deactivated our launchers after he started screaming on VENT for us to stop shooting him. We stopped shooting him but quite a few missiles were still in flight and heading his way.
BOOM.
He owned it for all of 15 minutes or so between purchase and it getting blown to shreds.
Afterwards, a Mercenary Coalition interceptor grabbed his pod in the same system at the gate and blew up his multi billion isk implant set.
And he forgot to update his clone before that. ;)
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Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
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baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zverofaust wrote:I have recently taken up the olympic flame of ganking Hulks and I must say they are pretty ******* ridiculous. My t2 fit Catalyst rocking overheated neutron smoked a Hulk in a 0.8 system before CONCORD even showed up on grid. And I probably could've done it in a t1 fit. 5 minutes ratting in nullsec and I recovered the ISK and sec loss. I'm all for making Hulks gankable in highsec but I'd like to see doing it require something like a gang of what I was flying, or maybe a high-DPS cruiser (Thorax) or BC hull to do it.
Hulks very rarely are tanked. You will know when you slam into a supertank hulk |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
748
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Hulk aligns more slowly than a plated Abaddon does. Considering its size and vulnerability, that feels very wrong. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
254
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with?
and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5986
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant.
The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such a pathetic tank. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. It has three highs and no hard points. Nobody is going to be using them for combat even if they get a tank buff. CCP is getting rid of drone minerals in order to buff null mining. If they want people to mine in null they need to give them a ship with a better tank to do it in. |
Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Suicide gank of T3 miner? Yes, please.
Poorly fitted T3 miner. *fixed*
Thread amuses me, you should see the **** people have to fit to just be able to tank 0.0 rats. On top of the ship price you need deadspace shield boosters and all kinds of ****.
Could be a 500m loss in 0.0 if ganked.
I'm sure they are all over battleclinic... CSM7 Skype Leak
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baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[
Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship. |
Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote: It has three highs and no hard points. Nobody is going to be using them for combat even if they get a tank buff. CCP is getting rid of drone minerals in order to buff null mining. If they want people to mine in null they need to give them a ship with a better tank to do it in.
Keep in mind, people have been mining in 0.0 for years without this. But it requires more to do it.
I don't mine in empire and haven't since i started playing.
However, I can understand with the new t3's and the ease at which destroyers can kill a hulk in empire, it requires some more thought.
CSM7 Skype Leak
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
579
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 01:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
All the industrail sector ships need an HP bump, and a big bump at that. If they have to cost more in minerals, so be it. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[ Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship. Supertankers would have a better tank if their job required them to be in an asteroid belt full of hostile battleships. |
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baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:All the industrail sector ships need an HP bump, and a big bump at that. If they have to cost more in minerals, so be it.
No, they simply require people to tank them. |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote: Supertankers would have a better tank if their job required them to be in an asteroid belt full of hostile battleships.
A job which a hulk can do without breaking a sweat. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
136
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think the hulk is actually a bit overpowered. It has too many low slots. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Why does everyone say its an industrial ship then forget Deep Space Transports can have over 75k ehp and still have a decent amount of cargo room. 75k ehp is more than a untanked cargo expanded orca |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
so this is mega hulk maxed skills with a tengu running links with heat on give you just over 100k ehp its stupid expensive to even think about it but i guess it can be done...
[Hulk, New Setup 1] Damage Control II True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Medium Shield Extender II
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. Would you consider the Bustard overpowered then? I believe it can fit an LSE while not being a combat ship but a tanky transport. It provides in my opinion a better comparison to the hulk than the iteron series as it is also a tech 2 version of a non-combat, dedicated purpose hull. |
Nura Taron
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Supertankers would have a better tank if their job required them to be in an asteroid belt full of hostile battleships.
A job which a hulk can do without breaking a sweat. Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank other ships of its size need. |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
580
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.
Just say you like paper thin tanks on hulks, don't hide it. :) |
Bane Necran
268
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all.
You wish.
The bigger the tank, the more expensive the ship they have to lose to gank you. It's not a big difference, but if you fit a half decent tank none of the poor people will try anything. |
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
414
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
if you think the hulk is bad, do try to tank a skiff. also, you can fit 3 T2 hards on the hulk. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Just say you like paper thin tanks on hulks, don't hide it. :)
Having lost a gang of six destroyers to a supertank hulk, I can only agree |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
255
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
Just say you like paper thin tanks on hulks, don't hide it. :)
Having lost a gang of six destroyers to a supertank hulk, I can only agree
yeah that 12 mill isk must have really burnt...
|
Keno Skir
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Gotta agree with most of the above. It's a mining ship not a battleship or even a cruiser. You might find trucks full of expensive equipment in a warzone, but that doesn't mean it can or should have the defences of a tank. The hulk is designed to extract ore quickly and absolutely nothing else. If it had an amazing tank it would be unrealistic IMHO. The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
baltec1
1070
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:yeah that 12 mill isk must have really burnt...
Not as badly as the two smartbombing domi that tried after us |
Oxylan
1 Caldaryjski Pluton Uderzeniowy
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so this is mega hulk maxed skills with a tengu running links with heat on give you just over 100k ehp its stupid expensive to even think about it but i guess it can be done...
[Hulk, New Setup 1] Damage Control II True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Medium Shield Extender II
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
One shot form energy neutralizer and your cap is down, no sense to use expensive invuls on hulk, hulk it self got big resist form bonus while using 3 invul even t2 you get all resit value at 80+% and faction stuf cant boost a lot this value because stack penalty... if you have bad day and bad luck you cant stand to 2-3 destroyers even you got super expensive items, next thing against expensive tank items and tank items on low slots like damage control, small plates hardener etc.
If you decide to use tank modules on low slots say cya for mining laser upgardes, and withaut two mining laser upg and t2 strip miner your hulk got horible mining efficienty. If it bleed we can kill it. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
439
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 02:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Hulk is needs to be renamed to the fluffy loving rabbit. I have more space likes than you.-á |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
377
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 03:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[ Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship.
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
Youre right. they should make it so you CANT AT ALL fit defensive stuff on that "NON COMBAT" ship
as it is after all non combat https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=255722#post255722
My stance on WiS |
Revolution Rising
Gentlemen of Better Ilk
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 03:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[ Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship. Supertankers would have a better tank if their job required them to be in an asteroid belt full of hostile battleships. Revolution Rising wrote:Keep in mind, people have been mining in 0.0 for years without this. But it requires more to do it.
As someone above me mentioned it requires a ridiculously expensive deadspace loot fit to do it. Forcing people to take out a second mortgage to afford enough PLEX to cover their losses is not an effective way to make mining the main source of high end minerals.
lol yeah that was me too. ;) Like I said can be up to a 500m loss of a single sub capital ship depending on fittings.
Probably less so in other parts of space, but certainly against sansha's the EM/TH part of the your fitting is gonna cost you because the rats do EM/TH and those are the worst resists. Likely end up with some faction in there somewhere and the rigs are taken up with it - so you cannot as someone above suggested fit PG rigs for LSE's ;)
You'll probably need a pithi/gisti B type shield booster also. edit: for typo. CSM7 Skype Leak
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JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
237
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 04:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. Would you consider the Bustard overpowered then? I believe it can fit an LSE while not being a combat ship but a tanky transport. It provides in my opinion a better comparison to the hulk than the iteron series as it is also a tech 2 version of a non-combat, dedicated purpose hull.
Yeah but the entire point of that transport ship is to transfer cargo through hostile space. Its built for purpose. |
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Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 04:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
Well I think hulks tanks are fine if properly fit. I can easily have a 20k unheated tank on my hulk plus I also keep security with the hulk too. I mine in 0.0 in alliance space and there is A LOT of tools at your disposal to stop people trying to pop your miners. Intel channels standing fleets and belt security. These measures alone will stop all but the large blobs (and at that point you just safe up since their usually spotted in intel) or the occasional logoffskie attempt. And like others have said the hulk is a industrial ship designed to mine ore not engage in combat. Even in real life militarys logistics and transport is closely guarded. Going out to mine alone (especially in empire) you're taking a risk and since RoE in empire are crap its a breeding ground for griefers. Properly fit your hulk don't just think about max yield. A damage control adds a lot of ehp. Being in a fleet to adds leadership bonuses and possible gang links. At the end of the day EVE Online was met to be a group activity not a solo effort. |
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian Pinked
61
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 04:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
I stopped mining in null due to not being able to tank any rats with my retreiver. Granted thats a Teir 2 Tech 1 barge, but I take it you need a drake or something to take the aggro from the rats so they can use their cloud of drones to gank the rats. Hulks should be able to tank fairly large ships, not being ganked by a destroyer, which is meant to do that to frigs.
My Merlin gets a better tank than a hulk.
EDIT: If the Hulk got 50-75 MW more PG and 50 TF more CPU it could tank pretty well. Maybe even some more slots but that is wishful thinking. Real Caldari Hull Tank (And Win doing so) Support the EVE Version of Source Recoder! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
583
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 04:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dyniss wrote: At the end of the day EVE Online was met to be a group activity not a solo effort.
Some of us simply do not enjoy hearding cats. Doesn't mean we don't like the other cats. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 04:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please!
okay
can you fit a 1600mm plate on a viator/occator |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 04:43:00 -
[45] - Quote
it's easy to get 30-40k ehp out of a hulk
you just have to realize that survivability comes at the expense of mining yield
that's something that most hisec miners can't wrap their heads around vOv |
Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:I stopped mining in null due to not being able to tank any rats with my retreiver. Granted thats a Teir 2 Tech 1 barge, but I take it you need a drake or something to take the aggro from the rats so they can use their cloud of drones to gank the rats. Hulks should be able to tank fairly large ships, not being ganked by a destroyer, which is meant to do that to frigs.
My Merlin gets a better tank than a hulk.
EDIT: If the Hulk got 50-75 MW more PG and 50 TF more CPU it could tank pretty well. Maybe even some more slots but that is wishful thinking. Belt security is all you need a single cruiser usually faction or hac will work fine. I personally use a Gila myself. It tanks very well plus you have plenty of room for logistic drones. I carry a flight of heavy T2 shield bots myself. |
Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
But then again I run dual accounts which IMHO is the most optimal way to play EVE. |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
118
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Suicide gank of T3 miner? Yes, please.
Embarassingly/funnily enough, I read this and said "harrrr" out loud. What the **** is happening =\ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3296
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:never minned a day in my life other than that mission that made me mine once...
so i was looking at the hulk today and was wondering why there are so many high sec bear tears... when i noticed it had this awesome resist bonus profile but it cant fit a bloody LSE?!?!??!
either fix the damn ship ccp or add the 5th subsystem to TIII ships that are indy/minning based... shesh!
How eerie. I was just yesterday thinking that the Hulk ought to be able to fit an LSE. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:Well I think hulks tanks are fine if properly fit. I can easily have a 20k unheated tank on my hulk plus I also keep security with the hulk too. I mine in 0.0 in alliance space and there is A LOT of tools at your disposal to stop people trying to pop your miners. Intel channels standing fleets and belt security. These measures alone will stop all but the large blobs (and at that point you just safe up since their usually spotted in intel) or the occasional logoffskie attempt. And like others have said the hulk is a industrial ship designed to mine ore not engage in combat. Even in real life militarys logistics and transport is closely guarded. Going out to mine alone (especially in empire) you're taking a risk and since RoE in empire are crap its a breeding ground for griefers. Properly fit your hulk don't just think about max yield. A damage control adds a lot of ehp. Being in a fleet to adds leadership bonuses and possible gang links. At the end of the day EVE Online was met to be a group activity not a solo effort.
A Whole 20K Gee wow. That's like, uber and stuff. With a tank like that I'm sure null bears will be flooding thier belts with 20K EHP Hulks now. They should pay you for that fit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
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Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Hulk....hmmm.....HEY OP your an IDIOT!
Have you taken the time to google the hulk tto fit against ganking? NO!
Thats what i thought. not going to give ya the answer going to mke you work but you can fit a hulk not all faction tank gear but able to have over 35k EHP with a nice shield resists but you would cry cause you could not fit the T2 strippers....still you cry when your hulk pops. |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:41:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ioci wrote:[quote=Dyniss]Well I think hulks tanks are fine if properly fit. I can easily have a 20k unheated tank on my hulk plus I also keep security with the hulk too. I mine in 0.0 in alliance space and there is A LOT of tools at your disposal to stop people trying to pop your miners. Intel channels standing fleets and belt security. These measures alone will stop all but the large blobs (and at that point you just safe up since their usually spotted in intel) or the occasional logoffskie attempt. And like others have said the hulk is a industrial ship designed to mine ore not engage in combat. Even in real life militarys logistics and transport is closely guarded. Going out to mine alone (especially in empire) you're taking a risk and since RoE in empire are crap its a breeding ground for griefers. Properly fit your hulk don't just think about max yield. A damage control adds a lot of ehp. Being in a fleet to adds leadership bonuses and possible gang links. At the end of the day EVE Online was met to be a group activity not a solo effort.
Pathetic. I did the same blue shield thing. watched a hult pilot tank against 10 man crew and could not pop him they had tyo call a curse in to kill him. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
452
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
Why do people still insist on mining in hisec?
High security space is an area meant for new players to learn the game, and for people to come together to trade. The idea is clear, once you get the hang of the game, you move out of the noobzone and start playing.
If you can fly a T2 fitted Hulk, you should leave the cradle and join or form a corporation. There are no suicide gankers outside hisec, you can mine your heart out in corp/alliance mining operations in environments that you and your friends can control. Now is the the perfect time to leave cesspool behind and get rich.
Free your mind and your Hulk fill follow! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
584
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 05:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Roime wrote: and join or form a corporation
Not everyone enjoys null sec politics and waiting around for others to get their **** together constantly. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
452
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
Null sec?
What about NPC null, lowsec and wormholes? I couldn't care less about null politics, and I very much prefer to live 100% from CONCORD, Empire faggotry and blobs. It's a huge world out there, and anybody can reap the riches it offers.
All you really need is a pair, doesn't even have to be big one, and little bit of common sense.
|
Shadowsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:All the industrail sector ships need an HP bump, and a big bump at that. If they have to cost more in minerals, so be it. No, they simply require people to tank them.
When they're tanked, can a single overheated tier3 BC still gank them in high-sec? If not, I don't see a problem with the way they are now. If yes, maybe a small increase of hitpoints makes sense, just enough that it require a pair of gankers. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1165
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:18:00 -
[57] - Quote
Take note CCP.
When even gankers, the most risk averse, pathetic lowlifes that infest this game, are calling for for more tank on Exhumers, you might want to realize that you may just actually have a problem here.
Lets kick it up a notch, CCP. You want that everyone starts mining in battleships again because they do a better job than the ships designed for it?
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
479
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
actually it is relevant because a hulk is a t2 ship with a smaller tank then a cruiser. it shouldn't have a BS tank, but it should be what enough for what is meant for, mining in dangerous space. LSE on a hulk would be respectable, or all t2 miners for that matter. there should be a larger jump from covetor to hulk. the PG to fit a LSE2 instead of small would be a good improvement |
Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:25:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ioci wrote:Dyniss wrote:Well I think hulks tanks are fine if properly fit. I can easily have a 20k unheated tank on my hulk plus I also keep security with the hulk too. I mine in 0.0 in alliance space and there is A LOT of tools at your disposal to stop people trying to pop your miners. Intel channels standing fleets and belt security. These measures alone will stop all but the large blobs (and at that point you just safe up since their usually spotted in intel) or the occasional logoffskie attempt. And like others have said the hulk is a industrial ship designed to mine ore not engage in combat. Even in real life militarys logistics and transport is closely guarded. Going out to mine alone (especially in empire) you're taking a risk and since RoE in empire are crap its a breeding ground for griefers. Properly fit your hulk don't just think about max yield. A damage control adds a lot of ehp. Being in a fleet to adds leadership bonuses and possible gang links. At the end of the day EVE Online was met to be a group activity not a solo effort. A Whole 20K Gee wow. That's like, uber and stuff. With a tank like that I'm sure null bears will be flooding thier belts with 20K EHP Hulks now. They should pay you for that fit. Nothing wrong with 20k ehp I was just using it as an example. Also I don't understand this null bear nonsense most miners in EVE are very much into pvp they just use mining to fund their pvp. I am sure you have some way to fund your gameplay style too |
Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. actually it is relevant because a hulk is a t2 ship with a smaller tank then a cruiser. it shouldn't have a BS tank, but it should be what enough for what is meant for, mining in dangerous space. LSE on a hulk would be respectable, or all t2 miners for that matter. there should be a larger jump from covetor to hulk. the PG to fit a LSE2 instead of small would be a good improvement I don't see any cruisers that can get 80+ to all resists with 2 modules neither. |
|
Dyniss
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
A hulk with a LSE would be a bit too much. A medium shield extender would be more balanced. You have to remember b Hulks can easily get over 80% to all resists. A LSE on a hulk would easily get it close to BS ehp. As it is now a properly fit hulk can get close to 40k ehp and that's pretty high |
Keno Skir
110
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Oh baltec, its also usually illegal for them (oil tankers) to mount weapons. Otherwise the pirates in Africa wouldnt be as nig an issue
Think you'll find you're incorrect, 30 seconds of google says they have lenty of guns onboard and sometimes even mounted weapons.
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Oh baltec, its also usually illegal for them to mount weapons. Otherwise the pirates in Africa wouldnt be as nig an issue
i c wat u did thar |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1207
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 06:58:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dyniss wrote:As it is now a properly fit hulk can get close to 40k ehp and that's pretty high
A hulk without three strip miners is not "properly fit". To fit an MSE on a hulk you need to use a MAPC, to fit a LSE requires removing strip miners.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
452
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 07:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
So you need to downgrade "guns" in order to fit a better tank?
Sounds just like every other ship.
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 07:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS.
But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig).
- bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks
And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space?
one word: STUPID! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 07:46:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS. But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig). - bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space? one word: STUPID!
The Orca isn't actually a capital. It's an Industrial Command Ship. The Rorqual is the Capital Industrial. |
Severian Carnifex
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 08:27:00 -
[68] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked.
^^ This!
Hulk is just pointless. 300mill ISK ship and pointless
And just dont get me started talking about the rest of the exumer line. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
526
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 08:48:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
It's relevant to the buck for worth you get. An itty does the 1 task for 700k (depends on type), an hulk does 1 task for a bit more.
The best possible iteron costs 2M to do the task as best as possible. The corresponding best mining ship costs 308M right now to do the same 1 task. It's a bit of a different cost vs task done. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mystrak
Severasse Mining Independent Stars Allied Forces
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 08:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS. But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig). - bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space? one word: STUPID! The Orca isn't actually a capital. It's an Industrial Command Ship. The Rorqual is the Capital Industrial.
No. The orca is under the capital ships section. I'm not Prencleeve Grothsmore. Are you? |
|
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mystrak wrote:No. The orca is under the capital ships section.
So, what?
Not all battleship sized modules can be fit on all frigs either. It takes role bonuses, like on stealth bombers or T3 battle-cruisers.
Some day a small capital ship may appear that will have role bonuses and be able to fit capital sized modules.
Orca is just not that ship.
Deal with it.
|
Hroya
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
And they name it 'Hulk'
Of course you can tank a Hulk to some extent, just like a hauler with plates. But doing that you also gimp pretty much the reason why it is in the game. That then would make other ships far more viable to perform that role.
A plated hauler will still be a hauler but with way less capacity for a slighty more chance of survival. But it would still be a hauler and marked prime for the suicide. Rack a BS with expanders in the lows and you have about the same cargohold as the gimped hauler but with no exposure what so ever to it's intention.
A barge/exhumer allways had to go for max yield fit to make the mining worthwhile with the mineral prices over the years due to bots and what not. Now that the bots might be flagged as priority to deal with the prices are going up. Now you could argue that fitting a tank, ergo gimping yield, would become more viable. But atm it would just ensure you get the same income from mining now as you had with the lower mineral prices yet with a slighty better surviveabillity. So mineral prices would need to go up even more to effectively provide a better income and make tanking a sound option. Yet then you face a huge rise in ship prices, esp the hulk wich allready is patheticly expensive for such a ship, and in turn suiciding such ships with some more investment in gankships would remain the same as now.
The ships have to be looked at to provide yield plus survivabillty at a decent level. It would still be doable to suicide those ships but would also ensure that investment in both procuurment ships aswell as suicide vessels wouldnt get to a point that it is way to rediculous to be in the game.
You go your corridor but. |
Oxylan
1 Caldaryjski Pluton Uderzeniowy
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
This whole kamikaze game mechanic force miners to have at last one alt in logistic or force mienrs to play in group, if you want solo mining is your chose... but dont be mad if you lose ship, btw hulks are to expensive.
CCP should decerace material needs for productions and reduce cost to 50-70mil max because they just mining barge, espetialy while two destroyers for 4mil isk can destroy ship worth 210mil in less than 6 second, this is wired. If it bleed we can kill it. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with?
Difference is that a Iteron is a tech1 ship that costs a few million to buy, The Hulk is a Tech2 specialised mining ship that costs 200million to buy.
So yes, we expect it to be a bit more durable. |
Sevena Black
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
Boosting HP has no effect on suicide ganking. You can gank ANYTHING.
The number of ships (ISK investment) required will increase. Thats about it.
The most effective method to prevent suicide ganking in H-sec is mining in a "quiet" system and watching directional. When 6 new guys jump in and your scanner shows they're catalysts etc, WARP
Ofcourse being aligned at 5 m/s helps
That being said, I've lost 3 hulks to gankers. So following my own advice was too complicated for me :)
|
Severian Carnifex
163
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:31:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sunviking wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? Difference is that a Iteron is a tech1 ship that costs a few million to buy, The Hulk is a Tech2 specialised mining ship that costs 200million to buy.So yes, we expect it to be a bit more durable.
I looked at the market few days ago and Hulk was around 300mill ISK |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:41:00 -
[77] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so this is mega hulk maxed skills with a tengu running links with heat on give you just over 100k ehp its stupid expensive to even think about it but i guess it can be done...
[Hulk, New Setup 1] Damage Control II True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field Medium Shield Extender II
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender II
Wow, a 3 Billion ISK hulk that can mine 2m ISK an hour. Seems worth it.
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:45:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:Hulk....hmmm.....HEY OP your an IDIOT!
Have you taken the time to google the hulk tto fit against ganking? NO!
Thats what i thought. not going to give ya the answer going to mke you work but you can fit a hulk not all faction tank gear but able to have over 35k EHP with a nice shield resists but you would cry cause you could not fit the T2 strippers....still you cry when your hulk pops.
Stopped reading at "your an IDIOT!"
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
294
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:47:00 -
[79] - Quote
Haha. Miners just never stop complaining and crying. They aren't even getting CCPwnd like Incursion runners and gankers - they just crying because they aren't getting the buffs they want.
Let me clue you in.
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
I don't think you can honestly say that Hulks are underutilized - its one of the most commonly flown ships in the game. It would be like CCP buffing the Drakes' resists because 'so many of them die'.
The problem isn't with the ship - its with the miners themselves. Like others said, it can fit 3x Strips and sport 33K EHP, and with Orca support almost 40K.
If you gave it another low slot - then watch as the vast majority of miners use it for Cargo-Expanders and make their ships even EASIER to kill. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1207
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
Roime wrote:So you need to downgrade "guns" in order to fit a better tank?
Sounds just like every other ship.
What other ship needs to lose weapons in order to be able to fill mids and lows with tank sufficient for its role? Even Caldari missile boats have sufficient CPU and PG to mount enough tank to do the job without sacrificing high slots.
As has been said in this thread already: a miner is actually better off flying a Covetor than a Hulk, because the Covetor can be flown with a maximum yield fitting, platinum insurance, and the inevitable loss will be more than compensated for by the difference in income between that Covetor and the max-tanked Hulk it replaced.
|
|
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
Correct.
Quote: I don't think you can honestly say that Hulks are underutilized - its one of the most commonly flown ships in the game.
As a matter of fact, when people start to fly only one ship and fit, which obsoletes all other ships and fits (cf. ECM nerf, nano nerf, NOS nerf, the second nano nerf, the second ECM nerf, supercap nerf), then CCP, well, you guessed it, nerfs it.
Hulk is up for a nerf, methinks.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:59:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sunviking wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? Difference is that a Iteron is a tech1 ship that costs a few million to buy, The Hulk is a Tech2 specialised mining ship that costs 200million to buy. So yes, we expect it to be a bit more durable. GǪand cost, as always, is not a balancing factor. Again: both are non-combat industrial ships. The hulk is a whole lot more durable than its cousins if you choose to actually tank it (but no-one does, because god forbid that you reduce your yield even a tiny bit to improve on your safety).
The Hulk can fulfil its role just fine while still maintaining a proper tank.
Mara Rinn wrote:What other ship needs to lose weapons in order to be able to fill mids and lows with tank sufficient for its role? Even Caldari missile boats have sufficient CPU and PG to mount enough tank to do the job without sacrificing high slots. All of them, pretty much. Notice his wording, and then take a look at things like target painters, tracking computers, tracking enhancers, weapon upgradesGǪ
If you want to max out the tank on any ship, your GÇ£gunGÇ¥ part will suffer for it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
ugh zug
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 09:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
to ccp. while you envision mining vessels to be like oil rigs, you don't take into consideration that oil rigs are not attacked by combat vessels or kamikazed by zeros inrl.
Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it.
it wont be enough to save you from a gank but it will make them work for it. Want me to shut up?-á Send me ISK and i'll stop giving suggestions to CCP that make sense. Remove content from my post, 15 bil Remove my content from a thread I have started 30bil. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
ugh zug wrote:Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it. Cost is not a balancing factor.
In what way is a non-combat ship meant for base industry use with 100k+ EHP balanced? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:11:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nick Bison wrote:Yeah, Hulk is a T2 BC sized ship with a sub-cruiser tank. Fricken pathetic and should be addressed.
I do not advocate making Exhumers with super-tanks but at least something respectable for their size, cost and tech level.
Everything is ballance,
Less Tank - More DPS More Speed - Less tank More mining yield - Less ????
So CCP went with Less tank.
You know, if you went with less yield... you could probably get more tank... at least enough to save you from a thrasher any how.
[Hulk, terrible fit to prove a point] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
|
Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
99
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tippia wrote:ugh zug wrote:Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it. Cost is not a balancing factor. In what way is a capital combat ship meant for base gank use with 100m+ EHP balanced?
I don't mind hulk having a weak tank but when you have to baby sit your alt in null not because of players but because of belt rats something is wrong.
|
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:23:00 -
[87] - Quote
Baneken wrote:Tippia wrote:ugh zug wrote:Bring the tankablity of exhumers up to 75-85% of most tech 2 Battle Cruiser hulls would still be very balanced for the cost of the ship hull and the time required to train for it. Cost is not a balancing factor. In what way is a capital combat ship meant for base gank use with 100m+ EHP balanced? I don't mind hulk having a weak tank but when you have to baby sit your alt in null not because of players but because of belt rats something is wrong.
I'd take that as "working as intended" tbh.
If you want to avoid baby sitting, buy some stupidly price x-type shield booster. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
Nice strawman. So you agree, then that the hulk is fine since you have to resort to fallacies like this to maintain something that might be mistaken for an argument. Goodie.
Oh, and people using the GÇ£safe against null ratsGÇ¥ fits in highsec, rather than a fit that would protect them against highsec dangers, is one of the primary reasons hulk ganking caught on, so not only can it be done GÇö it's the genesis. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kreeia Dgore
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 10:56:00 -
[89] - Quote
Agree with OP, hulk can be fitted for reasonable tank, but then it is useless for mining. It can mine well, but then it won't be able to tank a destroyer. Of course you may spend 700m on modules, but when you but so much money into the ship you generally get an extra edge to be used somewhere. The fitting above is a great example. Expensive and useless, since the mining yield sucks. It is a common misconception about miners, being a miner isn't about having a strip miner, it is all about modules and implants. You increase your yield = you loose your high, low, some med slots and rigs. With the rest, there is no reliable way to tank. I'm ok with that, as long as the ship has lower material costs. Also, i would like to see some boost to structural HP, which i consider a reasonabe way to express how sluggish the vessel but still it shows somehow. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:07:00 -
[90] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
Correct. WRONG
If the Abaddon would be bad you could still chose Geddon or Apoc. If all 3 would be bad you can switch to Minmatar, Caldari or Galente Battleships.
Now ... there is ONE high end mining ship. The Hulk. You can NOT simply switch to an other ship like combat pilots can.
If there is just ONE ... you use it even if it has real and hardcore problems as there are no alternatives.
It's like the VW Beatle after WW2 or Trabant from DDR. If there is no alternative people use it even if this cars have ******* bad breaks, ~34 PS only, no airbags, no radio or whatever. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
528
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Haha. Miners just never stop complaining and crying. They aren't even getting CCPwnd like Incursion runners and gankers - they just crying because they aren't getting the buffs they want.
Let me clue you in.
Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it.
Yeah when a PvP ship sucks people dump it and go for a similar worth and role another ship.
When a mining ship sucks people dump it and go for .... oh wait, that's it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
Someone said a Hulk is no good at PvP?
Oreally?
http://youtu.be/ndWUlntJ58U
You can PvP with ANYTHING in this game.........well, anything that can fit an offence.
Stop being so narrow minded....................
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:14:00 -
[93] - Quote
BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:Someone said a Hulk is no good at PvP? Oreally? BAD KEYLOGGER LINKYou can PvP with ANYTHING in this game.........well, anything that can fit an offence. Stop being so narrow minded.................... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
If you mean this video he is attacked by t1 friggats only PRE destroyer and PRE arti buff. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Prince Kobol
527
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:17:00 -
[94] - Quote
Personally I think this is a pointless discussion for the simple reason EVERY SHIP (yeah yeah a Titan can't be ganked.. funny) can be ganked and it has been covered god knows how many times.
Even IF CCP increased the base hulk EHP by a few k, that just translates into 1 more destroyer.
The best way to avoid getting ganked is to spend a couple of hours scouting the system and surrounding system where you want to mine, see who is flying about, talk to other miners.. (yes I know.. talking to other people in a MMO. I must be some crazy nut ) to find out if ganks happen, if they do how often and who are the main culprits.
Use the many on-line tools available to check to see how many kills there has been in the systems and who is doing the killing.
Once you find somewhere you are happy with and have laid the ground work for the intel you need, talk to other miners in local and look out for each other.
Also.. FIT SOME DAMN TANK.
Nothing worse then listening to people ***** and complain that they have been ganked and then you find out they had zero tank and were mining in a system that has a history of ganks.
I usually have 24K EHP before Orca boosts on all my hulks and that is with 3 Modulated Strips miners and a Mining Laser Upgrade II.
You know how many hulks I have lost to ganks.... ZERO |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
432
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
Some people here clearly never have mined and I cannot blame them. But if you had you'd know its so (fork in eye) boring even if you do it for like maintaining your own POS or getting minerals to build stuff, the last thing you want is compromise your yield or cycle for that tiny little bit of tank. Its feels like forced labour.
The Hulk was designed with the gameplay of 2006 in mind. We're 5+ years further now. The Hulk in these days needs a buff to be able, even tough oh so slightly, to cope (just a little bit), with the challenges of today. Who needs television when you have EVE? EVE drama, best drama. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:20:00 -
[96] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Yeah when a PvP ship sucks people dump it and go for a similar worth and role another ship.
When a mining ship sucks people dump it and go for .... oh wait, that's it.
[GǪ]
You can buy a fully insurable covetor, have somewhat less yield. Cost approximates zero, yield is o(Hulk), tank is o(Hulk), that is covetor WILL die but at zero cost. GǪso in other words, there is no real need to buff the Hulk since there is a viable alternative, and yet the Hulk is the ship everyone uses. In fact, it's one of the most used ships in the game, so it can't be nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Pak Narhoo wrote:The Hulk was designed with the gameplay of 2006 in mind. We're 5+ years further now. The Hulk in these days needs a buff to be able, even tough oh so slightly, to cope (just a little bit), with the challenges of today. What challenges are those and what buffs would that be? It rather sounds like people are stuck in the gameplay of 2006 and refuse to adapt it to the realities of 2012 (viz. by fitting a tank). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Prince Kobol
527
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Some people here clearly never have mined and I cannot blame them. But if you had you'd know its so (fork in eye) boring even if you do it for like maintaining your own POS or getting minerals to build stuff, the last thing you want is compromise your yield or cycle for that tiny little bit of tank. Its feels like forced labour.
The Hulk was designed with the gameplay of 2006 in mind. We're 5+ years further now. The Hulk in these days needs a buff to be able, even tough oh so slightly, to cope (just a little bit), with the challenges of today.
The problem is not with the ship but with mining as a whole.
Buffing the hulk to allow people to afk mine is not the solution. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Personally I think this is a pointless discussion for the simple reason EVERY SHIP an be ganked and it has been covered god knows how many times.
True ..
BUT PvP guys like to whine like sissys "risk v reward".
Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship ..
not enough risk for the reward!
It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners.
After CCP buffed the Destroyer, Projectil and Hybrid guns ... they destroyed any balance for Mining+Industrial ships.
Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships). Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
baltec1
1073
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:23:00 -
[99] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: What other ship needs to lose weapons in order to be able to fill mids and lows with tank sufficient for its role?
Just about every single cruiser.
Quote: As has been said in this thread already: a miner is actually better off flying a Covetor than a Hulk, because the Covetor can be flown with a maximum yield fitting, platinum insurance, and the inevitable loss will be more than compensated for by the difference in income between that Covetor and the max-tanked Hulk it replaced.
So fly the covetor then. I'll stick with a supertank hulk which does not need replacing whenever a destroyer turns up. |
BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:23:00 -
[100] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:Someone said a Hulk is no good at PvP? Oreally? BAD KEYLOGGER LINKYou can PvP with ANYTHING in this game.........well, anything that can fit an offence. Stop being so narrow minded.................... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58UIf you mean this video he is attacked by t1 friggats only PRE destroyer and PRE arti buff.
First off, "bad keylogger link" my ass. Sort your A/V and stop being a tard.
Second, sure, that was pre-alotofthings
Doesn't change a damned thing.
A Hulk, properly skilled with drone and tank skills is perfectly capable of doing low end PvP, just like in that video.
The only things that have changed are the exact fitouts.
Now, that being said, of course any asshat can manage to cobble together an alpha strike ship or team, but I hardly call that PvP.
No sport in it, mate.
Like shooting ducks with nuclear weapons.
Alas, "fair fights" and "1v1" have gone the way of the Albatross, it seems.
Killmail whores only think about the gank, not the actual fun from battle tactics.
What a miserable way to exist, IMHO.
|
|
baltec1
1073
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote: True ..
BUT PvP guys like to whine like sissys "risk v reward".
Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship ..
not enough risk for the reward!
It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners.
After CCP buffed the Destroyer, Projectil and Hybrid guns ... they destroyed any balance for Mining+Industrial ships.
Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships).
No. You must fit a tank to stop them. |
Prince Kobol
529
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:27:00 -
[102] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Personally I think this is a pointless discussion for the simple reason EVERY SHIP an be ganked and it has been covered god knows how many times.
True .. BUT PvP guys like to whine like sissys "risk v reward". Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship .. not enough risk for the reward! It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners. After CCP buffed the Destroyer, Projectil and Hybrid guns ... they destroyed any balance for Mining+Industrial ships. Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships).
There is no balance problem.
The problem is that people want to be able to mine afk and are too damn lazy to do any kind of intel and to work together. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5996
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:29:00 -
[103] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship ..
not enough risk for the reward! It's 100% risk and what is the reward?
Quote:It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners. Good job missing the point: the problem is that the miners refuse to accept the increased risk that comes with the increased reward GÇö want more yield (reward)? Then you get higher risk (less tank). Want more yield again (reward)? Then you get higher risk (more expensive ship).
Quote:Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships). What balance problem? Fitting a tank still makes you impervious to these ships, even after the buff. Yes, if there are a whole bunch of them you die, but guess what GÇö welcome to the numbers game where 1+n > 1 (for positive n). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Personally I think this is a pointless discussion for the simple reason EVERY SHIP an be ganked and it has been covered god knows how many times.
True .. BUT PvP guys like to whine like sissys "risk v reward". Using a T1 Destroyer which cost about 15m with guns and w-ups to eazy mode gank a 300m (WITHOUT mods) T2 ship .. not enough risk for the reward! It is YOU (wannabe PvPler) who over abuse this "risk v reward"! Not the miners. After CCP buffed the Destroyer, Projectil and Hybrid guns ... they destroyed any balance for Mining+Industrial ships. Now they MUST fix this balance problem again (nerf Destroyer+Hybrid+Projectil OR .. better for both sides buff mining+industrial ships). There is no balance problem. The problem is that people want to be able to mine afk and are too damn lazy to do any kind of intel and to work together.
This is why they should allow mining bots or make mining some kind of interesting\taxing tbh. Not even the miners want to mine when they mine. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:35:00 -
[105] - Quote
This Again...
Sigh
[Rapier, Shield Standard] (I AM A ******* DEDICATED COMBAT VESSEL) Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M Cynosural Field Generator I Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
26K EHP Before Links
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] (I AM TANKED PROPERLY) Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
32k EHP
Now you see, that seems awful unfair, nerf hulks IMO
|
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
The Hulk is a broken design anyway.
By CCP's own admission, T2 are meant to be more specialised. The Mackinaw and Skiff are brilliant examples of this by being better at specific types of mining (Ice and Mercoxit respectively), but the Hulk is just an all round better Covetor.
Arguably, the Covetor should be the best miner in terms of m3 pulled for normal rocks and the Hulk should do something different like either being a tanky mofo (really not a good idea as they need to pop), being specialised for Gas Havesting or something else that's unique to it (automatic ore compression maybe? Useful bonus but being popped with a full hold will hurt more).
Of course, doing this would also make mining a bit more lucrative as well, as the amount mined goes down a little. |
baltec1
1073
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:54:00 -
[107] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:
Arguably, the Covetor should be the best miner in terms of m3 pulled for normal rocks and the Hulk should do something different like either being a tanky mofo.
It is. The problem is people set it up for max mining then whine when their ship with no tanking mods at all gets torn apart by a destroyer. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
527
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:55:00 -
[108] - Quote
Oh, awesome how some chumps don't think the hulk needs a buff. With all kind of excuses, they will always be against it. Lets get CCP to bring down the Freighter and Jump Freighter to the same effective tank as the Hulk (JF gets 20K htpoints like the hlk, Freighter gets roughtly 9k like industrials). Align time stays the same. Bang, we got balance. Thats fair! Talking about 3-10 destroyers, valued up to 20m to destroy your 850m / 4 billion isk ship excluding cargo.
So, how would you feel that your investment of billions and many months of time spent training would get smoked again and again by a dude who trained a throw away character under a day? Sure you risked it and relized it was just as dumb to fly a hulk, but one would have to think that both sides should risk something of near equal value beyond 5m to score a 200m ship killmail since both of you pay the same monthly subscription
edit: and I am all for just removing asteroid belts, grav sites, reducing reprocessing yield, no SP reassignment for the miners and everything stays the same. Enjoy that version of EVE when hulks are totally useless, you got nothing to blow up, and you have difficulty replacing a ship since the supply will always be tiny. |
Prince Kobol
529
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 11:57:00 -
[109] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Oh, awesome how some chumps don't think the hulk needs a buff. With all kind of excuses, they will always be against it. Lets get CCP to bring down the Freighter and Jump Freighter to the same effective tank as the Hulk (JF gets 20K htpoints like the hlk, Freighter gets roughtly 9k like industrials). Align time stays the same. Bang, we got balance. Thats fair! Talking about 3-10 destroyers, valued up to 20m to destroy your 850m / 4 billion isk ship excluding cargo.
So, how would you feel that your investment of billions and many months of time spent training would get smoked again and again by a dude who trained a throw away character under a day? Sure you risked it and relized it was just as dumb to fly a hulk, but one would have to think that both sides should risk something of near equal value beyond 5m to score a 200m ship killmail since both of you pay the same monthly subscription
Oh dear god |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:00:00 -
[110] - Quote
Some T2 medium ship classes to compare: (base) ClassShield HPArmor HPHull HPCPUGrid Hulk15191013253130035 Covetor7811250187520035 --- Bustard351623913938250200 Crane175811961969285125 --- Basilisk210911251287510825 --- Nighthawk480533633844555710 Vulture4805336338445451275
Should a Hulk be able to fit this (about 35,024 EHP)?: [Hulk, Hulk] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
If so, then it needs +150 power grid and +100 CPU give or take.
Even a Crane can fit a LSE2 with no problem. This Crane works today (about 40,870 EHP): [Crane, EHP] Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Medium Shield Extender II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
So should a Hulk be able to do the same (about 46,990 EHP)? [Hulk, LSE2] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Medium Shield Extender II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
(LSE2 Hulk Yield is 1302/minute)
Yield of 1058/minute for [Covetor, Disposable Miner] Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor I
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier I
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Yield of 1234/minute for [Covetor, T2 Disposable Miner] Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor I
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
It almost does not make financial sense to ever use a Hulk if the choice is between 1436 (max hulk) and 1234 (max covetor) (202 m3/minute)
I think the hulk should have a decent survivability with full-miner mode on and a great surviviablility if you back it down a notch. For the investment, it should be awesome. As it is, it is an expensive covetor.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5998
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:00:00 -
[111] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Oh, awesome how some chumps don't think the hulk needs a buff. GǪlargely because no-one can come up with a useful argument why it needs one that can't be answered with Gǣfit a tankGǥ.
Quote:Lets get CCP to bring down the Freighter and Jump Freighter to the same effective tank as the Hulk (JF gets 20K htpoints like the hlk, Freighter gets roughtly 9k like industrials). Align time stays the same. Bang, we got balance. How is it balanced?
Quote:one would have to think that both sides should risk something of near equal value No. Balance doesn't work that way. Cost is not a balancing factor.
Droxlyn wrote:Should a Hulk be able to fit this (about 35,024 EHP)?: You can already get a Hulk to 35k EHP, and as has been pointed out numerous times by now, if the difference is really that small between the Covetor and the Hulk, and it makes such financial sense to use the Covetor instead, how come the Hulk is one of the most used ships in the game? The usage pattern does not support the supposition that it needs any kind of fix. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:02:00 -
[112] - Quote
Your hulk only has tech I guns on it though. Where as your rapier gets Tech I IGuns, a faction probe, a cyno generator and a cover ops cloak.
Danny John-Peter wrote:This Again...
Sigh
[Rapier, Shield Standard] (I AM A ******* DEDICATED COMBAT VESSEL) Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M Cynosural Field Generator I Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
26K EHP Before Links
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] (I AM TANKED PROPERLY) Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
32k EHP Before Links
(Also, if attacked, heat invuls for 36k EHP and even better resists)
Now you see, that seems awful unfair, nerf hulks IMO
|
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:07:00 -
[113] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Your hulk only has tech I guns on it though. Where as your rapier gets Tech I IGuns, a faction probe, a cyno generator and a cover ops cloak. Danny John-Peter wrote:This Again...
Sigh
[Rapier, Shield Standard] (I AM A ******* DEDICATED COMBAT VESSEL) Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M Cynosural Field Generator I Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
26K EHP Before Links
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] (I AM TANKED PROPERLY) Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
32k EHP Before Links
(Also, if attacked, heat invuls for 36k EHP and even better resists)
Now you see, that seems awful unfair, nerf hulks IMO
Yup, and to do that it sacrifices quite a fair bit of tank.
(Oh and put a T1 720mm if you want, it makes no difference, its not there to kill things)
Every hulk I have seen that gets ganked is not tanked, at all.
EDIT; Also, 29k EHP
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I |
baltec1
1073
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:07:00 -
[114] - Quote
A hulk will tank 33k which is in the same range as most t2 cruisers. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:08:00 -
[115] - Quote
Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.
|
Prince Kobol
529
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:11:00 -
[116] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:
Stuff about comparing ships
So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.
Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.
Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.
Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price. |
Raven Ether
Republic University Minmatar Republic
143
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:11:00 -
[117] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:never minned a day in my life other than that mission that made me mine once...
so i was looking at the hulk today and was wondering why there are so many high sec bear tears... when i noticed it had this awesome resist bonus profile but it cant fit a bloody LSE?!?!??!
either fix the damn ship ccp or add the 5th subsystem to TIII ships that are indy/minning based... shesh!
T3 Industrial, please.
plz plx pl0z pl0x plox plzzz plss pls please plea of help from the infinite heavens |
baltec1
1073
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:14:00 -
[118] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.
[Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank.
You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1207
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:17:00 -
[119] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.
Put the survey scanner on the Orca, which is bonuses for that hardware
Fit the hulk for maximum yield, keep your eye on local, spam D-scan. If you see incoming, dock the hulk in the Orca, swapping it for the Basilisk that was in the hangar. Now you can get your Orca out unless the bad guys are flying in a fleet of ships to gank the orca.
It would, of course, be wonderful if you could fit an MWD and three gang links to the Orca, but we can't have everything. So fit fed navy webs to the basilisks (you have two hulk/basilisk pilots, right?) and you should be able to get that Orca out too. Or skip the basilisks, use Daredevils or Ashimmus: ships that have bonuses to webifier strength.
Fitted for maximum yield, those two hulks are going to be requiring your attention to be on the computer anyway.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5998
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:18:00 -
[120] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner. 2+ù Invuln II, SSE II, DC II, PDU II, 2+ù CDFE GåÆ 27k.
GǪbut as mentioned, the scanner should be on the Orca anyway, which lets you squeeze another Invuln there and get up to 35k+. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:18:00 -
[121] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner. [Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank. You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.
And yet nobody is happy
|
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:19:00 -
[122] - Quote
Well i'll be damned lol It still has 8,000 cargo hold too.
baltec1 wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner. [Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank. You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.
|
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Well i'll be damned lol It still has 8,000 cargo hold too. baltec1 wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner. [Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank. You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.
So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
|
Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
232
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:25:00 -
[124] - Quote
Meh
Give all these ships x3 tank
Make concord take x3 longer to appear
Evolve play a bit ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:27:00 -
[125] - Quote
26,700 EHP Iteron Mark V with 15,500 m3 cargo hold lol.
Passive Regen: 114 Resists: 75.9, 77.2, 72.8, 77.4
[Iteron Mark V, Tank] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
|
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:28:00 -
[126] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Meh
Give all these ships x3 tank
Make concord take x3 longer to appear
Evolve play a bit
Yeah, Hulks with 100k EHP, great plan |
Prince Kobol
529
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:29:00 -
[127] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:
So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
Simply because people are to damn lazy and just want to fly to a random belt and mine afk.
So when they do and come back to a floating pod they come on the forums and scream that hulks should have the same tank as a Titan. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
294
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:31:00 -
[128] - Quote
Hulk is fine. Miners are the problem.
If the Hulk was 'bad' nobody would use it. They would fly Covetors instead. The Hulk is in the top five of 'most flown ships' - 3rd IIRC. The Covetor is WAY down the list.
Pretty obvious to me that what these carebears want - is massive EHP without having to dedicate low and rigs slots for the purpose. Essentially, 75-80K EHP on the standard '2x Cargo mod/MLU, 2x Cargo rig" fit.
Then, they will lobby for even more Concord buffs/ganking nerfs - rendering ganks nearly impossible. Sure, it will still be 'possible' - but if it requires the coordination of a large group and/or massive loss of ISK on each gank....it will be an exceedingly rare event.
Result: Carebear miner paradise, where Hulks can AFK/macro mine all day. Risk free. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
247
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:37:00 -
[129] - Quote
Roime wrote:Why do people still insist on mining in hisec?
They mine the low end which the nullbears aren't willing to mine becasue of ISK per hour. Any nullbear miner who mines anything else than ABC's is an idiot. If I only mine the ABC's and sell part of the zyd and mega in high sec I can purchase all the low ends I need, compress them and jump them into null. That saves a lot of time and makes my Isk per hour more attractive.
But Isk per hour is something only nullbears are allowed to pursuit. How dare high sec people try the same.
The whole bladibla about fitting an ueberawesome tank is a moot debate. I have seen more than once mining ops in null sec and they don't even fit such tanks, mainly due to the fact they have much more ease in avoiding hostiles. neuts and blue's are announced several systems away.
Try to do the same in hi sec.
Hulk tanks are fine when tanking rats, be it null sec rats or hi sec rats. But when it comes to gankers no tank will hold long enough if the ganker knows what he's doing. The nullbear just keeps an eye on the intel channel and goes to safety long before a hostile drops by. A lot of mining also happens in pocketsystems. Gates bubbled up like hell. So any hostiles have to burn through 30 or 40 bubbles before they can warp. Again enough time to safe up. Now show me the hi sec pocket system that has the ability to make people unable to warp to you for a huge range around the gate.
It's ridiculous that a Hulk requires to be a lot heavier tanked in high sec than null sec. |
Kreeia Dgore
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:39:00 -
[130] - Quote
How about CCP does their job and ban bots and changes mining to enforce being present at keyboard? It is needed, 26% people hate it, it is most hated game mechanics in the whole eve. Anyway, hulks need boost since gankers are boosted too. Bots don't care, real life players do. |
|
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
70
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:
So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.
Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.
Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.
Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.
The Hulk is the T2 version of the Covetor, so it would make sense to compare the two. I agree that the hulk is "better" than the covetor, but it doesn't go far enough to justify its 10x price.
It mines 15% more when each are maxed for mining.
Sitting in an empty covetor gives me 6005 EHP, sitting in an empty Hulk gets me 9217. There is more up-side when fitted.
The storage on a Hulk is nice, I like being able to hold two full cycles from my strip miners at once. I get twice the time between doing something with my harvest, whoop-de-do.
The CPU upgrade is what lets me get two Mining Laser Upgrade IIs on it.
It needs more powergrid, a lot more, and currently it gets no love here. CCP does dictate the price, in blueprint recipe costs, just not the final ISK cost on any given day.
My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts. |
baltec1
1073
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 12:59:00 -
[132] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:
My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.
If you tank it correctly then you will survive all but the most dedicated gankers. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:02:00 -
[133] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.
Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.
Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.
Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.
The Hulk is the T2 version of the Covetor, so it would make sense to compare the two. I agree that the hulk is "better" than the covetor, but it doesn't go far enough to justify its 10x price. It mines 15% more when each are maxed for mining. Sitting in an empty covetor gives me 6005 EHP, sitting in an empty Hulk gets me 9217. There is more up-side when fitted. The storage on a Hulk is nice, I like being able to hold two full cycles from my strip miners at once. I get twice the time between doing something with my harvest, whoop-de-do. The CPU upgrade is what lets me get two Mining Laser Upgrade IIs on it. It needs more powergrid, a lot more, and currently it gets no love here. CCP does dictate the price, in blueprint recipe costs, just not the final ISK cost on any given day. My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.
Unless the gankers bring some serious hardware, it will, put it this way, my Dual LSE version of my Rapier has lived through a lot, and it has 30K odd EHP.
|
Prince Kobol
529
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:03:00 -
[134] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.
Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.
Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.
Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.
The Hulk is the T2 version of the Covetor, so it would make sense to compare the two. I agree that the hulk is "better" than the covetor, but it doesn't go far enough to justify its 10x price. It mines 15% more when each are maxed for mining. Sitting in an empty covetor gives me 6005 EHP, sitting in an empty Hulk gets me 9217. There is more up-side when fitted. The storage on a Hulk is nice, I like being able to hold two full cycles from my strip miners at once. I get twice the time between doing something with my harvest, whoop-de-do. The CPU upgrade is what lets me get two Mining Laser Upgrade IIs on it. It needs more powergrid, a lot more, and currently it gets no love here. CCP does dictate the price, in blueprint recipe costs, just not the final ISK cost on any given day. My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.
You missed the bit about comparing price.
You can not compare ships by price simply because this is a player driven market and the price is set by the players.
Also the same could be said of many ships..
The Rifter is 450k, Wolf and Jag are about 30mil.
So does that mean the Wolf / Jag should be 60 times better then Rifter? |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:06:00 -
[135] - Quote
For the record, the whole, "Hulk is not X many times better than the Covetor" is called reduced returns, its why you could spend 3 Bil on a faction fitted Machariel and it will still die to three gank Geddons, or 1 Bil on a tengu, and it will die to a 100 Mil after fitting 1600 Plated cane. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5999
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:15:00 -
[136] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:For the record, the whole, "Hulk is not X many times better than the Covetor" is called reduced returns, its why you could spend 3 Bil on a faction fitted Machariel and it will still die to three gank Geddons, or 1 Bil on a tengu, and it will die to a 100 Mil after fitting 1600 Plated cane. ^^ This.
The entirety of EVE is built around diminishing returns for exponential costs. This is why price is not a balancing factor: because costing more tells us absolutely nothing about how much GÇ£betterGÇ£ something is, even when we do a straight apples-to-apples comparison with its less capable counterparts.
An Invuln II gives you a 30% resist bonus for, what? A couple of millions? A CN Invuln gives you a 37.5% resist bonus GÇö 25% more than the T2 version GÇö for several hundred millions. We're talking almost a factor of 100+ù the price for -+ better performance. So price as a measure of how much performance something GÇ£should haveGÇ¥ is right out the window, and it keeps going into the field, across the tracks, down the docks and half-way across the ocean if we want to do something as silly as comparing two completely different items (say, a T2 mining ship and a T1 combat ship). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
384
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:17:00 -
[137] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Hulk is fine. Miners (and their non-existent tanking knowledge) are the problem. Its funny, people try to teach them to tank, and post fits, they simply ignore the fit, and pretend it doesn't exist.
If the Hulk was 'bad' nobody would use it. They would fly Covetors instead. The Hulk is in the top five of 'most flown ships' - 3rd IIRC. The Covetor is WAY down the list.
Pretty obvious to me that what these carebears want - is massive EHP without having to dedicate low and rigs slots for the purpose. Essentially, 75-80K EHP on the standard '2x Cargo mod/MLU, 2x Cargo rig" fit.
Then, they will lobby for even more Concord buffs/ganking nerfs - rendering ganks nearly impossible. Sure, it will still be 'possible' - but if it requires the coordination of a large group and/or massive loss of ISK on each gank....it will be an exceedingly rare event.
Result: Carebear miner paradise, where Hulks can AFK/macro mine all day. Risk free.
I have an idea, make Hulks perminantly omnitanked. Make it so you can only add one low and three highs. That way EVERY Hulk is tanked and they got no qq https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
294
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:32:00 -
[138] - Quote
Of course, T2 gives you only marginally better performance for a price.
In combat ships and everything else. Carebears are the only ones who refuse to understand it, it seems. Even explaning it to them won't help.
Miners are just ignorant as a class, and when you suggest that THEY are the problem, they get all self-righteous.
CCP caters to them in the same way that teachers try to prevent other students from picking on the 'mentally handicapped'. Doesn't change the fact that they ARE mentally handicapped.
The Vagabond is 150M, while the Stabber is 3-4 M and insurable. Does the Vagabond give 40x better performance? The T2 Claw is a 15-20M, while a T1 Slasher is 50K. Is the Claw 40x better?
Insisting that the 220M T2 Hulk is somehow out of line with the 25M T1 Covetor - is nonsense.
EDIT: Hulk does not need a buff, but my point would be proven if CCP simply gave the Hulk an additional low slot. 95% of the miners out there would stuff another Cargo Expander in it, and cripple their EHP further - and then continue to cry when Destroyers blow them up. |
Prince Kobol
529
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:41:00 -
[139] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Miners are just ignorant as a class, and when you suggest that THEY are the problem, they get all self-righteous.
CCP caters to them in the same way that teachers try to prevent other students from picking on the 'mentally handicapped'. Doesn't change the fact that they ARE mentally handicapped.
]
By the same token we can say people who gank are people who have very small and offensive genitalia, are unable to fit into society due to their very poor social skills and horrendous body odour and are still living with their parents well into their 30's.
See, its easy to label an entire section of the gaming community because they are butt hurt that CCP declared their method (which wasn't theirs as it had been used for years, it was just people didn't shout about it on the forums and take the ****) of ganking as an exploit.
|
Ackemi
Phenome Tactical
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:48:00 -
[140] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:This Again...
Sigh
[Rapier, Shield Standard] (I AM A ******* DEDICATED COMBAT VESSEL) Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M Cynosural Field Generator I Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
26K EHP Before Links
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] (I AM TANKED PROPERLY) Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
32k EHP Before Links
(Also, if attacked, heat invuls for 36k EHP and even better resists)
Now you see, that seems awful unfair, nerf hulks IMO
Wow, talk about apples and oranges!
I will say that I'd take a hulk tank nerf if you give my hulk the agility and speed of a Rapier.
|
|
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
203
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:51:00 -
[141] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort.
That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them.
The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.
In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do. |
baltec1
1074
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:57:00 -
[142] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.
That was about belt rats. If you want a pvp tank go look at the one I posted. |
Arkon Olacar
Imperial Guardians The Aurora Shadow
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 13:59:00 -
[143] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do. Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers
I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
203
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:01:00 -
[144] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do. That was about belt rats. If you want a pvp tank go look at the one I posted.
If you're talking just belt rats in hi-sec then you don't need to tank a hulk, just let your combat drones get rid of them. But belt rats in hi-sec are not the real threat to a Hulk these days. |
baltec1
1074
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:05:00 -
[145] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:
If you're talking just belt rats in hi-sec then you don't need to tank a hulk, just let your combat drones get rid of them. But belt rats in hi-sec are not the real threat to a Hulk these days.
Hence my fit which can take an arty tornado and just keep on smiling. |
Alara IonStorm
1970
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:09:00 -
[146] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? Well no one asked for a 1600mm Plate, they asked for a Large Shield Extender. Iterons T1 so we will use the T2 Iteron's the Occator and Viator...
Hey you can fit both of them with a LSE. Oh and most of the lows are free Cargo Expanders even after a DCU.
Looks like CCP designed these ships right. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:13:00 -
[147] - Quote
[quote=Ackemi][quote=Danny John-Peter]This Again... Snip
Quote:Wow, talk about apples and oranges! I will say that I'd take a hulk tank nerf if you give my hulk the agility and speed of a Rapier.
Well, naturally its an extreme example, point being, the only reason hulks die, is because they are not fitted properly, 36K EHP is plenty enough to deter almost any gank, I mean Jesus, it would take 4 Nados to alpha the thing, thats definetaly not isk efficient. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
203
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:13:00 -
[148] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do. Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship.
And they need to be made so they can potentially survive a suicide attack more successfully as that is the threat to them. If you were in a war and the equipment you had was useless against a certain attack and you were losing many, you would either stop using them and replace them with something else or improve the existing equipment. I see no problem with upgrading them as that would be a natural course of their development. |
BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned Ace of Spades.
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:13:00 -
[149] - Quote
[Hulk] Reactor Control Unit II Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)
cargohold full in 6 cycles |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:17:00 -
[150] - Quote
Today, 150 TIMES cheaper ship can kill hulk! And, what when you completely tank your hulk and loose all its benefits? Then it will it will be "only " 50 TIMES price difference??? That Ain't Right |
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Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:17:00 -
[151] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote: Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers
I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship.
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Tippia wrote:Quite irrelevant.
The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
Youre right. they should make it so you CANT AT ALL fit defensive stuff on that "NON COMBAT" ship as it is after all non combat
wasnt meant as a tossaway troll, was being serious https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:18:00 -
[152] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote: The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do.
In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.
So you have to make a compromise between efficiency and survivability. How outrageous! It's almost like I had to fit plates, nano membranes and Damage control on my Abaddon instead of only heat sinks in pvp, making my ship less efficient for the job it's supposed to do GÇô killing GÇô only to stand a chance for survival... oh, wait.
Whatever. I never tried suicide-ganking before (killing miners only in wormholes), and have never been ganked, so I have a question: How can one thrasher gank a hulk in hisec? Even an unfitted hulk has 9.2k ehp. A t2-fitted max-dps thrasher should need nine salvos or about 20 seconds to do that much damage. Do you have 20 seconds in hisec before Concord kills you?
And a Tornado can do enough damage to kill unfitted Hulk with one salvo, but fit a single damage control to the hulk and it survives easily. To fire a second salvo, the tornado would have to wait about 17 seconds...
Am I right to assume that to kill a properly tanked hulk in hisec you'd need two Tornados or a greater number of destroyers? Winner of elections banned, runner-up demoted by rest of the body, the council controlled by the losers. CSM 7 is illegitimate, CCP should remember when dealing with them. Remember what players voted for. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:18:00 -
[153] - Quote
BrutalButFair wrote:[Hulk] Reactor Control Unit II Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)
cargohold full in 6 cycles
Obvious troll is obvious, also, alpha |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
530
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:25:00 -
[154] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Yeah when a PvP ship sucks people dump it and go for a similar worth and role another ship.
When a mining ship sucks people dump it and go for .... oh wait, that's it.
[GǪ]
You can buy a fully insurable covetor, have somewhat less yield. Cost approximates zero, yield is o(Hulk), tank is o(Hulk), that is covetor WILL die but at zero cost. GǪso in other words, there is no real need to buff the Hulk since there is a viable alternative, and yet the Hulk is the ship everyone uses. In fact, it's one of the most used ships in the game, so it can't be nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
In other words, when you have 1 choice for 1 task (even if required in great numbers) that's the choice you get.
Pak Narhoo wrote:The Hulk was designed with the gameplay of 2006 in mind. We're 5+ years further now. The Hulk in these days needs a buff to be able, even tough oh so slightly, to cope (just a little bit), with the challenges of today. What challenges are those and what buffs would that be? It rather sounds like people are stuck in the gameplay of 2006 and refuse to adapt it to the realities of 2012 (viz. by fitting a tank).[/quote]
Guess why they buffed destroyers? They brought them up to current specs (and did it wrong, because they keep re-buffing everything causing a stats inflation feedback). If "bringing up to 2012" is their politic, then all the ships should have a chance to be brought up to 2012 standards. You can't double some ships damage while leaving others as is.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
QU0RRA
Isomorphic Algorithms
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:26:00 -
[155] - Quote
This is going to shock some people, but as a 100% at the keyboard miner who uses 7 accounts (2 orcas and 5 hulks) I can absoutely state that the Hulk is perfect as is and DOES NOT need any buff.
I fit mine out for max yeild, but do so knowing that I could lose my ships if ganked, but I could lose ANY ship if the gankers really want to get me. I chose to do that knowing the risks because I mitigate this by first of all being at the feckin keyboard, keeping an eye on local, using the system scanner and being in a quiet minnie system since all the bozos use Caldari space like lemings. I can't be aligned due to using a static TANKED orca with bonuses (hence the other cargo orca).
Using these tactics I have NEVER been ganked since 2007. If I get ganked, so what, the gankers are just playing eve the way they want, just like I play the way I want. As an Industrialist (note not carebear, I bite back when provoked mofo ) I can replace any loss within 1 - 2 days. As I do so regularly with my FW loses.
BTW, cant wait for hulkageddon, might activaly participate this year as I detest bots and AFK'ers. The mining system is no excuse for AFK'ing. If bots are removed, drone poo is replaced by bounties and mineral prices go up then the current system of belt mining doesnt need to change FOR BELTS. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6000
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:32:00 -
[156] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Today, 150 TIMES cheaper ship can kill hulk! Yes? So? That's a good thing.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:In other words, when you have 1 choice for 1 task (even if required in great numbers) that's the choice you get. GǪwhich means the Hulk isn't a problem since you obviously have more than one choice. You and many others keep pointing this out in this very thread. You have demonstrated that there are other choices, which aren't being used because the Hulk provides enough benefit to be worth it. Consequently, there is absolutely no reason to buff it.
Quote:Guess why they buffed destroyers? Because they were woefully inadequate since inception compared to what you'd get out of frigates and cruisers. It also provided gankers with a much-needed buff to counteract the many security buffs highsec have received over the years. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
306
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:34:00 -
[157] - Quote
BrutalButFair wrote:[Hulk] Reactor Control Unit II Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)
cargohold full in 6 cycles
LOL You could buy several hulks just for the cost of the invuln field and shield booster. To the whiners :-áCCP Soundwave "Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally" CCP Recurve "However, Incursions are not the biggest ISK faucet, bounties are"
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BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned Ace of Spades.
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:38:00 -
[158] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:BrutalButFair wrote:[Hulk] Reactor Control Unit II Carpo Mining Laser Upgrade Republic Fleet Medium Shield Extender Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II,Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Works fine to me :) (20k ehp + 271dps repair)
cargohold full in 6 cycles Obvious troll is obvious, also, alpha
Why would you say troll? EFT begs to differ. Only prob is 17 mins of cap. But he, you don't need the booster all the time right :) natural shield repair already is 84 dps. That's more then sufficient in highsec. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:38:00 -
[159] - Quote
Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:Today, 150 TIMES cheaper ship can kill hulk! Yes? So? That's a good thing. .
Yea ships shouldnt be invulnerable to attack from smaller ones
BrutalButFair wrote:
Why would you say troll? EFT begs to differ. Only prob is 17 mins of cap. But he, you don't need the booster all the time right :) natural shield repair already is 84 dps. That's more then sufficient in highsec.
Probably cause if youre trying to argue you only have to deal with belt rats in High sec you ARE trolling.
or being obtuse https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3299
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:48:00 -
[160] - Quote
I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders.
I honestly don't care at all for the "but they're supposed to be non combat ships" arguments. Game balance is more important than fluff every time. Come to that, Amarr are supposed to be far more advanced than the other races, but CCP discarded the idea of making Amarr ships more powerful.
By far the greatest danager to Hulks comes from player ships, not rats. And the ability of player ships to attack Hulks has expanded far faster than the ability of Hulks to withstand them.
By all means jig the Hulk's fittings so that fitting a Meta 4 LSE means that you need a fitting mod and can't put in any MLUs - much like putting an MSE is now. But an LSE should indisputably be a viable module on a Hulk fit that's focused on tank.
It honestly won't make all that much difference: greedy idiots will still mine with 0 tank mods and 2x T2 cargo rigs. But the alert, capable player who wants to actually protect his ship should have a better option than a Frigate shield module. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
530
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:52:00 -
[161] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪwhich means the Hulk isn't a problem since you obviously have more than one choice. You and many others keep pointing this out in this very thread. You have demonstrated that there are other choices, which aren't being used because the Hulk provides enough benefit to be worth it. Consequently, there is absolutely no reason to buff it.
My choice has been to dump hulks and only speculate on minerals. Have fun making me rich. I am having extreme fun helping your stuff cost twice as much as in the past. I could buy 100 Hulks with the ISK your kin has lost to me in the last months.
The ONLY reasons why people kept mining for those years was:
- 1 Hulkageddon a year. - totally AFK, to the point of being bottable - very low risk in hi sec, it took 3-4 destroyers to kill an exhumer
Since the last few months:
- constant campaigns to boycott a region or whatever. As a consequence a lot of "protection" racket has born even when campaigns are over. Guys with 2 accounts demand payment or suicide gank all day long. - can't be afk any more, therefore the benefit that outweighted the low income has gone. Bots have being rightfully killed, but their absence stacks with the above to bring supply to half. - medium to high risk in hi sec, takes 1 destroyer to kill the average mack. It opened the doors to cheap suicide ganking to a legion of guys who could not afford 3-4 accounts like others could do in the past.
"Consequently" as you love to say, now you pay double.
Can't wait for drone regions nerf, I am going to make 3 digits billions on mining ships being sh!t.
Tippia wrote:Quote:Guess why they buffed destroyers? Because they were woefully inadequate since inception compared to what you'd get out of frigates and cruisers. It also provided gankers with a much-needed buff to counteract the many security buffs highsec have received over the years.
Got the buff? Cool now stop the 1000 threads about how evil is to have minerals cost twice as much.
It's good and healthy. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
216
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:54:00 -
[162] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
Yeah, but if you get your tank up that high, what it's supposed to be doing is the problem...your yield will be utter crap, kinda negating the point of the ship. It's meant for one thing and one thing only as you say, but if you FIT it for that one thing, you can't survive anything. |
Avila Cracko
307
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:57:00 -
[163] - Quote
Look at what CCP did last few years Boosted all gankers tools and gave them new ships too And what they did with mining tools??? Nothing
In the last 6 months CCP boosted all destroyers by 25%!! They boosted hybrids by lest say around 15% They introduced Tier 3 BCs that can kill few hulks before concord comes and its cheaper then tools gankers had before Everything on this field is against miners and for wuss "PVP-ers".
And now they are going to boost the rest of cheaper combat ships... truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
138
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:58:00 -
[164] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do.
I also hate how fitting tank makes my pvp ship do less dps and stuff. Buff megathron so I can skip armor plates and fit more gank.
...
seriously.... Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 14:58:00 -
[165] - Quote
yes, cause if theyre supposed to be non combat only ships you WOULDNT be able TO tank them https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:00:00 -
[166] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Look at what CCP did last few years Boosted all gankers tools and gave them new ships too And what they did with mining tools??? Nothing In the last 6 months CCP boosted all destroyers by 25%!! They boosted hybrids by lest say around 15% They introduced Tier 3 BCs that can kill few hulks before concord comes and its cheaper then tools gankers had before Everything on this field is against miners and for wuss "PVP-ers". And now they are going to boost the rest of cheaper combat ships...
CCP doesnt want you to mine get the message https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6000
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:03:00 -
[167] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders. The thing is, that cuts both ways: there's very little in the way of sensible arguments for enabling them to fit one either. Like you say, it won't make much difference. Yay, it now has 50k EHP instead of 35k, and will still die horribly to a proper gankGǪ
GǪand people still won't tank it and will still die to improper ganks. So why bother?
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am having extreme fun helping your stuff cost twice as much as in the past. I could buy 100 Hulks with the ISK your kin has lost to me in the last months. My stuff costs the same it has always done and GÇ¥my kinGÇ¥ hasn't lost you any ISK at all, so I have no idea what you're on about.
Quote:Got the buff? Cool now stop the 1000 threads about how evil is to have minerals cost twice as much. Same here: what on earth are you on about? Who are you talking to? If you're going to quote me, at least address me when doing so.
The point remains: the Hulk remains one of the most popular ships in the game in spite of there being a number of alternatives that could potentially even be better or more sensible, according to your reasoning. It's not underused, and it's not being used solely because it's there are no alternatives. So what grounds is there to buff it?
Ana Vyr wrote:Yeah, but if you get your tank up that high, what it's supposed to be doing is the problem...your yield will be utter crap, kinda negating the point of the ship. GǪjust like with every other ship in the game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:10:00 -
[168] - Quote
And I have to Sacrifice Invuls and Shield extenders on a Rapier Boohoo |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
530
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:13:00 -
[169] - Quote
Tippia wrote: If you're going to quote me, at least address me when doing so.
I quote you because you are the only one who can bump a thread forever. Just bait and you always fall and bring in some obtuse point of view you'll copy paste for 1000 pages. Can't be easier than that.
Tippia wrote: The point remains: the Hulk remains one of the most popular ships in the game in spite of there being a number of alternatives that could potentially even be better or more sensible, according to your reasoning. It's not underused, and it's not being used solely because it's there are no alternatives. So what grounds is there to buff it?
Because it's the smartest way to not make minerals go completely nuts after the recent and future game changes. More people will jump into mining seeing it finally potentially yields a decent income... The increased numbers would lower the mineral costs back to decent. But then they'll get kicked out with a slam in their teeth once they lost 2-3 ships to the first 2 weeks old guy in a destroyer.
The time-to-gank (from character creation to effective kill) has been hugely reduced, the cost-to-gank too (from BCs to destroyers). This created a self amplifying phenomenon that falls exactly during the lowest supply phase ever.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:14:00 -
[170] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Malcanis wrote:I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders. The thing is, that cuts both ways: there's very little in the way of sensible arguments for enabling them to fit one either. Like you say, it won't make much difference. Yay, it now has 50k EHP instead of 35k, and will still die horribly to a proper gankGǪ GǪand people still won't tank it and will still die to improper ganks. So why bother?
This argument works for any ship in the game, why ever boost anything then https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6000
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:18:00 -
[171] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I quote you because you are the only one who can bump a thread forever. So you admit that what you said was completely nonsensical and irrelevant and had nothing to do with what was being discussed.
Goodie. Yet another failure at explaining why the Hulk needs to be adjusted.
Quote:Because it's the smartest way to not make minerals go completely nuts after the recent and future game changes. The Hulk doesn't need to be adjusted in any way for that. Just let the market do what the market does, and it'll arrive where it should be. That is the smartest solution, because minerals going nuts for a while isn't really a problem. Adjusting something quite unrelated is a pretty stupid solution because you're not actually addressing any kind of problem by doing so.
Quote:But then they'll get kicked out with a slam in their teeth once they lost 2-3 ships to the first 2 weeks old guy in a destroyer. If they can't survive that single weak destroyer, then they should be kicked in the teeth for their abject failure to fit their ship properly. The Hulk can already survive that destroyer with ease, so what reason is there to buff it?
Kengutsi Akira wrote:This argument works for any ship in the game, why ever boost anything then No, it only works for ships where people can't produce any kind of reason why it needs to be buffed, and the reason they keep repeating simply comes down to them not wanting to use the pre-existing solutions to their perceived problemsGǪ like the Hulk. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:22:00 -
[172] - Quote
Zverofaust wrote:I have recently taken up the olympic flame of ganking Hulks and I must say they are pretty ******* ridiculous. My t2 fit Catalyst rocking overheated neutron smoked a Hulk in a 0.8 system before CONCORD even showed up on grid. And I probably could've done it in a t1 fit. 5 minutes ratting in nullsec and I recovered the ISK and sec loss. I'm all for making Hulks gankable in highsec but I'd like to see doing it require something like a gang of what I was flying, or maybe a high-DPS cruiser (Thorax) or BC hull to do it. reset test |
baltec1
1074
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:22:00 -
[173] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:
Yeah, but if you get your tank up that high, what it's supposed to be doing is the problem...your yield will be utter crap, kinda negating the point of the ship. It's meant for one thing and one thing only as you say, but if you FIT it for that one thing, you can't survive anything.
The ship gets a 7.5% bonus per level to resists. Even when fitted for max tank the hulk is a better miner than a covetor while being much harder to kill. This is the problem with you people, you simply cannot grasp that you have a choice of defence or better yield. The only reason destroyers can kill hulks is because people chose to have no tank at all. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:24:00 -
[174] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders.
I honestly don't care at all for the "but they're supposed to be non combat ships" arguments. Game balance is more important than fluff every time. Come to that, Amarr are supposed to be far more advanced than the other races, but CCP discarded the idea of making Amarr ships more powerful.
By far the greatest danager to Hulks comes from player ships, not rats. And the ability of player ships to attack Hulks has expanded far faster than the ability of Hulks to withstand them.
By all means jig the Hulk's fittings so that fitting a Meta 4 LSE means that you need a fitting mod and can't put in any MLUs - much like putting an MSE is now. But an LSE should indisputably be a viable module on a Hulk fit that's focused on tank.
It honestly won't make all that much difference: greedy idiots will still mine with 0 tank mods and 2x T2 cargo rigs. But the alert, capable player who wants to actually protect his ship should have a better option than a Frigate shield module.
I'm fine with Hulks getting buffed to fit LSEs.
Providing they lose the Exhumer 3% Mining Buff per level.
I don't see why the gap between them and Covetors should be widened any more considering Hulks are the only non specialised T2 industrial ship. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:31:00 -
[175] - Quote
I wonder whats better at minning roids... A tanked to hell hulk or maxed minnning apox with min tank... I qm qt work right now but willing to bet the qpoc will.have more ehp and.more efficiant plus cost less then 1/5 of the hulk... |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:32:00 -
[176] - Quote
To repeat my question, what does a professional ganker need to kill a hulk that a) has no tank b) has some tank (DC) c) has max tank (DC, Bulkheads, SEs) and how dependent is it of system security status?
I'm sure there is even a table with the math somewhere? Winner of elections banned, runner-up demoted by rest of the body, the council controlled by the losers. CSM 7 is illegitimate, CCP should remember when dealing with them. Remember what players voted for. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:37:00 -
[177] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:To repeat my question, what does a professional ganker need to kill a hulk that
I'm sure there is even a table with the math somewhere?
a) No tank
A Dessie
b) has some tank (DC)
Many dessies
c) has max tank (DC, Bulkheads, SEs)
Shitloads
Also, I officially give up on this argument, apparently the vast majority of miners are useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise what the rest of EVE worked out years ago; you have to sacrifice something. Weather its Tackle\DPS\ECCM\Utility so you dont die.
\rage |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:38:00 -
[178] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Malcanis wrote:I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders.
I honestly don't care at all for the "but they're supposed to be non combat ships" arguments. Game balance is more important than fluff every time. Come to that, Amarr are supposed to be far more advanced than the other races, but CCP discarded the idea of making Amarr ships more powerful.
By far the greatest danager to Hulks comes from player ships, not rats. And the ability of player ships to attack Hulks has expanded far faster than the ability of Hulks to withstand them.
By all means jig the Hulk's fittings so that fitting a Meta 4 LSE means that you need a fitting mod and can't put in any MLUs - much like putting an MSE is now. But an LSE should indisputably be a viable module on a Hulk fit that's focused on tank.
It honestly won't make all that much difference: greedy idiots will still mine with 0 tank mods and 2x T2 cargo rigs. But the alert, capable player who wants to actually protect his ship should have a better option than a Frigate shield module. I'm fine with Hulks getting buffed to fit LSEs. Providing they lose the Exhumer 3% Mining Buff per level. I don't see why the gap between them and Covetors should be widened any more considering Hulks are the only non specialised T2 industrial ship.
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.
That Ain't Right |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6000
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:41:00 -
[179] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:Yeah, but if you get your tank up that high, what it's supposed to be doing is the problem...your yield will be utter crap, kinda negating the point of the ship. It's meant for one thing and one thing only as you say, but if you FIT it for that one thing, you can't survive anything. The ship gets a 7.5% bonus per level to resists. Even when fitted for max tank the hulk is a better miner than a covetor while being much harder to kill. This is the problem with you people, you simply cannot grasp that you have a choice of defence or better yield. The only reason destroyers can kill hulks is because people chose to have no tank at all. GǪin fact, let's take a completely different expensive T2 ship and Gǣfit it for its one thingGǥ the way people tend to fit their Hulks and see what happens:
Damnation Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control II Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II 4+ù Command Processor I 6+ù Co-Processor II 2+ù Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
GǪoh dear. At just under 50k EHP, It can also be ganked by a small gang of destroyers. It's obvious that the Damnation needs to have its tanking abilities drastically buffed because it's such a weak ship.
Terrorfrodo wrote:To repeat my question, what does a professional ganker need to kill a hulk that a) has no tank b) has some tank (DC) c) has max tank (DC, Bulkheads, SEs) and how dependent is it of system security status?
I'm sure there is even a table with the math somewhere?
a) Single frigate or destroyer. b) Single tier-3 / battleship; multiple destroyers. c) Multiple tier-3s / battleships.
For higher-end highsec, shift up one GÇ£requirement levelGÇ¥ and/or just add more of the same ships for that level. When in doubt, throw 5+ù 10k-alpha ships on the bugger, and that will nuke just about any exhumer at any sec level. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Avila Cracko
307
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:43:00 -
[180] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Also, I officially give up on this argument, apparently the vast majority of miners are useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise what the rest of EVE worked out years ago; you have to sacrifice something. Weather its Tackle\DPS\ECCM\Utility so you dont die.
\rage
No, wast majority of wuss gankers that only have balls to PVP against defend-less target are "useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise" that they got in last 6 months many boosts (dessy boost, hybrid boost and tier 3 BC) and miners none and that they are now even bigger wussies then before. truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
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Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:48:00 -
[181] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:
Also, I officially give up on this argument, apparently the vast majority of miners are useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise what the rest of EVE worked out years ago; you have to sacrifice something. Weather its Tackle\DPS\ECCM\Utility so you dont die.
\rage
No, wast majority of wuss gankers that only have balls to PVP against defend-less target are "useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise" that they got in last 6 months many boosts (dessy boost, hybrid boost and tier 3 BC) and miners none and that they are now even bigger wussies then before. Balance was broken before too, but now we can't talk about balance at all.
The flip side of your argument is that its a bunch of pansy ass miners who are too damn lazy to tank their ships, do any intel and expect to be able to afk mine coming on the forums crying how its unfair.
|
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:49:00 -
[182] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Sasha Azala wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote: Using a tank that costs thousands of times more than the tank others ships of its size need.
In high sec, it needs no tank mods at all. In 0.0 it can tank the belts with a token effort. That's rubbish, if I had not fitted the Hulk to tank in hi-sec I would have lost both Hulks that were suicided, both survived but that was before there were any t3 BC. I doubt either would have survived if a t3 BC had attacked them. The Hulk is a crap vessel to tank as it is, only way to get a reasonable (pre t3 BCs) tank is to make it less efficient for the job it's supposed to do. In short they need looking at and make them at least stand more chance of survival whislt they're doing the job they're supposed to do. I also hate how fitting tank makes my pvp ship do less dps and stuff. Buff megathron so I can skip armor plates and fit more gank. ... seriously....
Hulk has a base of 8000EHP. Also if you'll read the OP isn't complaining about loosing mining yield to tank. He is complaining about the fittings of the hulk making it literally impossible to fit a descent buffer tank.
|
QU0RRA
Isomorphic Algorithms
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:50:00 -
[183] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Avila Cracko wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:
Also, I officially give up on this argument, apparently the vast majority of miners are useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise what the rest of EVE worked out years ago; you have to sacrifice something. Weather its Tackle\DPS\ECCM\Utility so you dont die.
\rage
No, wast majority of wuss gankers that only have balls to PVP against defend-less target are "useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise" that they got in last 6 months many boosts (dessy boost, hybrid boost and tier 3 BC) and miners none and that they are now even bigger wussies then before. Balance was broken before too, but now we can't talk about balance at all. The flip side of your argument is that its a bunch of pansy ass miners who are too damn lazy to tank their ships, do any intel and expect to be able to afk mine coming on the forums crying how its unfair.
This..... |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:50:00 -
[184] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Buzzmong wrote:Malcanis wrote:I've yet to see a sensible (ie: game balance-based) argument against enabling Hulks to fit Large Shield Extenders.
I honestly don't care at all for the "but they're supposed to be non combat ships" arguments. Game balance is more important than fluff every time. Come to that, Amarr are supposed to be far more advanced than the other races, but CCP discarded the idea of making Amarr ships more powerful.
By far the greatest danager to Hulks comes from player ships, not rats. And the ability of player ships to attack Hulks has expanded far faster than the ability of Hulks to withstand them.
By all means jig the Hulk's fittings so that fitting a Meta 4 LSE means that you need a fitting mod and can't put in any MLUs - much like putting an MSE is now. But an LSE should indisputably be a viable module on a Hulk fit that's focused on tank.
It honestly won't make all that much difference: greedy idiots will still mine with 0 tank mods and 2x T2 cargo rigs. But the alert, capable player who wants to actually protect his ship should have a better option than a Frigate shield module. I'm fine with Hulks getting buffed to fit LSEs. Providing they lose the Exhumer 3% Mining Buff per level. I don't see why the gap between them and Covetors should be widened any more considering Hulks are the only non specialised T2 industrial ship. Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.
Go compare Jita prices on a Prophecy and a Damnation, just sayin...
|
Severian Carnifex
164
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:51:00 -
[185] - Quote
Tippia wrote:DamnationArmored Warfare Link - Damage Control II Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II 4+ù Command Processor I 6+ù Co-Processor II 2+ù Medium Trimark Armor Pump I GǪoh dear. At just under 50k EHP, It can also be ganked by a small gang of destroyers. It's obvious that the Damnation needs to have its tanking abilities drastically buffed because it's such a weak ship.
You see, it is fitted to completely use its bonuses and completely is spelialized for its purpose and it have 50k EHP. Hulk is aluminium foil when its specialized in mining. And completely tanked it cant completely use his bonuses (it looses them) and have slightly above half of Damnations tank. Give Hulk that tank and we are happy...
And, - Damnation is 2/3 of Hulks price. - Damnation does not costs 10 times more then Prophecy, like Hulk is then Covetor, its 4 times. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
530
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:51:00 -
[186] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I quote you because you are the only one who can bump a thread forever. So you admit that what you said was completely nonsensical and irrelevant and had nothing to do with what was being discussed. Goodie. Yet another failure at explaining why the Hulk needs to be adjusted.
I admit I am using you to bump a thread where people can only see how it was good to buff the bejeezus of destroyers, implement T3 BCs, buff hybrids (all things needed or useful for PvP) while they can't see how the existing other ships get potently negatively affected.
Slowly, very slowly, the appropriate amount of social engineering plus the fact it's just true will make the exhumers reinforced up to standards. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:51:00 -
[187] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.
Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.
Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway. |
Kinroi Alari
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Ocularis Inferno
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:52:00 -
[188] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:26,700 EHP Iteron Mark V with 15,500 m3 cargo hold lol.
Passive Regen: 114 Resists: 75.9, 77.2, 72.8, 77.4
~grin~ I've done this.
|
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:55:00 -
[189] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:bornaa wrote:Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor. Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost. Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.
so... when did Hulk Cost 120mill (thats 4 times over the price of covetor (today))??? - it was when tritanium was one third of todays price. That Ain't Right |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:56:00 -
[190] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:[quote=Tippia]
And, - Damnation is 2/3 of Hulks price. - Damnation does not costs 10 times more then Prophecy, like Hulk is then Covetor, its 4 times.
Em, lol
Jita Prices
Lowest Damna - 299,999,999.95
Lowest Prophecy - 32,899,999.97
So not quite no, but pretty much
|
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bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 15:58:00 -
[191] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:[quote=Tippia]
And, - Damnation is 2/3 of Hulks price. - Damnation does not costs 10 times more then Prophecy, like Hulk is then Covetor, its 4 times. Em, lol Jita Prices Lowest Damna - 299,999,999.95 Lowest Prophecy - 32,899,999.97 So not quite no, but pretty much
I think that guy used my data.
I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both.
Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. That Ain't Right |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
120
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:02:00 -
[192] - Quote
You know what for the slow amongst the PvP community here are two Hulk fits showing exactly what the problem is:
Quote: [Hulk, Can't Tank] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Requires: 536 PG Has: 60.88 Needs and additional: 475.12 PG
Quote: [Hulk, Can't Tank] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Requires: 148.5 PG Has: 70.01PG Needs and additional: 78.49 PG
Oh and also
Quote:[Hulk, Can't Tank] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
Medium Shield Extender II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Requires: 59.25 PG Has: 43.75 PG Needs and additional:15.75 PG
This ship cannot even fit a MSE without TWO ACR's and an RCU!
Yeah this ships could use some more PG. |
Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:03:00 -
[193] - Quote
bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.
Since you asked, I will even do cruisers for you as well
Lets do amarr cruisers using current Jita Prices.. can't be bothered doing the other races
T1 - Arbitrator 5.8mil - T2 Pilgrim 145m/ T2 Curse 153m
T1 - Augoror 4.5m - T2 Guardian 141m
T1 - Maller 12.4m- T2 Sacrilege 172m / Devoter 220m
T1 - Omen 6.9m - T2 Zealot 149m
Battle Cruisers - All Races
Amarr T1 Prophecy 31m - T2 Absolution 204m / Damnation 299m
Caldari T1 Ferox 32m - T2 Nighthawk 254m / Vulture 217m
Gallente T1 Brutix 38m - T2 Astrarte 189m / Eos 195m
Minmatar T1 Cyclone 28m - Claymore T2 259m / Sleipnir 245m
If you are going to complain about the cost between T1 and T2 ships then you should really be complaining about frigs as their T2 counterparts can cost up to 20x more. |
Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:04:00 -
[194] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:You know what for the slow amongst the PvP community here are two Hulk fits showing exactly what the problem is: Quote: [Hulk, Can't Tank] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Requires: 536 PG Has: 60.88 Needs and additional: 475.12 PGQuote: [Hulk, Can't Tank] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Requires: 148.5 PG Has: 70.01PG Needs and additional: 78.49 PGOh and also Quote:[Hulk, Can't Tank] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
Medium Shield Extender II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Requires: 59.25 PG Has: 43.75 PG Needs and additional:15.75 PGThis ship cannot even fit a MSE without TWO ACR's and an RCU! Yeah this ships could use some more PG.
Please tell me you are trolling and are not serious.. please please please
|
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:05:00 -
[195] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:bornaa wrote:
Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor.
Since you asked, I will even do cruisers for you as well Lets do amarr cruisers using current Jita Prices.. can't be bothered doing the other races T1 - Arbitrator 5.8mil - T2 Pilgrim 145m/ T2 Curse 153m T1 - Augoror 4.5m - T2 Guardian 141m T1 - Maller 12.4m- T2 Sacrilege 172m / Devoter 220m T1 - Omen 6.9m - T2 Zealot 149m Battle Cruisers - All Races Amarr T1 Prophecy 31m - T2 Absolution 204m / Damnation 299m Caldari T1 Ferox 32m - T2 Nighthawk 254m / Vulture 217m Gallente T1 Brutix 38m - T2 Astrarte 189m / Eos 195m Minmatar T1 Cyclone 28m - Claymore T2 259m / Sleipnir 245m If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the material costs for T2 ships in most cases are approx 10 times greater then their T1 counterpart If you are going to complain about the cost between T1 and T2 ships then you should really be complaining about frigs as their T2 counterparts can cost up to 20x more.
Ill repeat myself
"I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both.
Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. "
That Ain't Right |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:05:00 -
[196] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:bornaa wrote:Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor. Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost. Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.
and hulkageddon
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:06:00 -
[197] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Buzzmong wrote:bornaa wrote:Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor. Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost. Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway. so... when did Hulk Cost 120mill (thats 4 times over the price of covetor (today))??? - it was when tritanium was one third of todays price.
Looking at the year long price changes in Verge Vendor (where this toon is), Covetors cost 18 mill 12 months ago, Hulks 185m.
Which is the same jump up for pretty much all the T1 -> T2 ships, such as Vexor->Ishtar, Proph->Damnation (or Asbo) etc, the Cov->Hulk has an easier time of it.
Thorax to Deimos has been a x20 jump at times.
Or shall we look at Omen to Zealot, which is around a x30 jump. What about frigates to AF's? Looking at x100 figures here.
Battleships? Apoc to Pally is also around a x10 jump.
The market figures are showing the jump from Cov to Hulk is on par with the rest of the game.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6004
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:07:00 -
[198] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:No, wast majority of wuss gankers that only have balls to PVP against defend-less target are "useless sycophantic half wits without the brains to realise" that they got in last 6 months many boosts (dessy boost, hybrid boost and tier 3 BC) and miners none and that they are now even bigger wussies then before.
Balance was broken before too, but now we can't talk about balance at all. Why is the balance now any worse than it was before? It used to be that years of security buffs made it silly safe in highsec; now the gankers have been given some tools to counter-balance those ridiculous safety levels. If anything, it is balanced now, when it was hilariously off-balance before.
bornaa wrote:Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor. Again: so what? Decreasing improvement for exponential cost. It's how all of EVE works. By the way, 10+ù more is a very very small markup in that segmentGǪ
-+ Bestower: 1GÇô2-+M GÇö Impel: 190-220M -+ Sigil: 1GÇô3M GÇö Prorator: 100M -+ Badger: 0.7M GÇö Crane: 100M -+ Badger II: 1.5M GÇö Bustard: 130M -+ Iteron: 0.8M GÇö Viator: 100M -+ Iteron III: 1M GÇö Occator: 135M -+ Mammoth: 2M GÇö Mastodon: 200M -+ Wreathe: 1M GÇö Prowler: 100M
GǪso that's maybe 100+ù on average.
-+ Prophecy: 32M GÇö Absolution: 210M / Damnation: 300M -+ Ferox: 35M GÇö Nighthawk: 250M / Vulture: 215M -+ Brutix: 40M GÇö Astarte: 190M / Eos: 200M -+ Cyclone: 29M GÇö Claymore: 280M / Sleipnir: 245M
GǪso quite close to that 10+ù markup. So even within your very limited selection, your argument doesn't particularly hold water (and if we look outside the BC-sized segment, we quickly notice how very small a 10+ù cost for a T2 upgrade is).
Severian Carnifex wrote:You see, it is fitted to completely use its bonuses and completely is spelialized for its purpose and it have 50k EHP. Hulk is aluminium foil when its specialized in mining. I suppose you missed the point that by the miners' logic, the Damnation needs to have its tanking buffed. The Damnation. If you cannot figure out why this is gut-bustingly laughably insane, you need to have a look at the ship in questionGǪ
Oh, and as mentioned above:
Damnation 300M vs. Prophecy 32M GÇö close enough to 10+ù to count. Hulk: 310M vs. Covetor 33M GÇö almost exactly the same multiplierGǪ and it's not 50% more than the Damnation / Prophecy either.
GǪbut of course, cost is not a balancing factor, so it wouldn't matter if you were actually even remotely close to being correct. These are the current Jita prices, by the way. You should probably use actual data if you're going to try that kind of argument (not that it really matters since it's an irrelevant argument anyway, what with cost not being a balancing factor and all thatGǪ). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:09:00 -
[199] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:bornaa wrote:Buzzmong wrote:bornaa wrote:Find me what other BC size ship T2 version costs that much over T1 version. You see, Hulk costs 10 times more then Covetor. Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost. Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway. so... when did Hulk Cost 120mill (thats 4 times over the price of covetor (today))??? - it was when tritanium was one third of todays price. Looking at the year long price changes in Verge Vendor (where this toon is), Covetors cost 18 mill 12 months ago, Hulks 185m. Which is the same jump up for pretty much all the T1 -> T2 ships, such as Vexor->Ishtar, Proph->Damnation (or Asbo) etc, the Cov->Hulk has an easier time of it. Thorax to Deimos has been a x20 jump at times. Or shall we look at Omen to Zealot, which is around a x30 jump. What about frigates to AF's? Looking at x100 figures here. Battleships? Apoc to Pally is also around a x10 jump. The market figures are showing the jump from Cov to Hulk is on par with the rest of the game.
Thats why i said "BC size".
And Ill repeat myself again:
"I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both.
Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. "
I used data from web market site that compare prices between all EVE markets. That Ain't Right |
baltec1
1075
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:12:00 -
[200] - Quote
Why are you lot comparing the hulk to t2 battlecruisers? The hulk is more of a cruiser sized ship... |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6005
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:15:00 -
[201] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. Jita is the pretty much the standard point of comparison since it's where the market moves the fastest towards the current equilibrium, and since it's objectively true for, and available to, everyone.
If you want to use some other non-standard data for comparison, provide sources and links. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:15:00 -
[202] - Quote
Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.
I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third. That Ain't Right |
Shadowsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:16:00 -
[203] - Quote
What is the max amount of DPS a ganker can do in 0.5 before concord show up? |
Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:19:00 -
[204] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.
I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third.
Where did you get offence of "combat ships have been boosted by a third" from?
Just making up random numbers again?
Sorry if you friend got ganked and decided he couldn't cut in Eve, but that is no reason to talk rubbish. |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:19:00 -
[205] - Quote
Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. Jita is the pretty much the standard point of comparison since it's where the market moves the fastest towards the current equilibrium, and since it's objectively true for, and available to, everyone. If you want to use some other non-standard data for comparison, provide sources and links.
http://eve-central.com
See damnation price in like Rens or Amarr - and you cant say they don't follow the trend. and all other prices are there. That Ain't Right |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:20:00 -
[206] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:bornaa wrote:Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.
I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third. Where did you get offence of "combat ships have been boosted by a third" from? Just making up random numbers again? Sorry if you friend got ganked and decided he couldn't cut in Eve, but that is no reason to talk rubbish.
No, i don't give random data. Dessys boosted by 25% and hybrids by like 15%. That Ain't Right |
Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:23:00 -
[207] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:bornaa wrote:Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.
I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third. Where did you get offence of "combat ships have been boosted by a third" from? Just making up random numbers again? Sorry if you friend got ganked and decided he couldn't cut in Eve, but that is no reason to talk rubbish. No, i don't give random data. Dessys boosted by 25% and hybrids by like 15%.
You said all "combat ships have been boosted by a third" not a class of ships and 1 weapon type were boosted.
Also "25%" and "like 15%" are not a third.
So yeah.. you do come up with random data |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:26:00 -
[208] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:bornaa wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:bornaa wrote:Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.
I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third. Where did you get offence of "combat ships have been boosted by a third" from? Just making up random numbers again? Sorry if you friend got ganked and decided he couldn't cut in Eve, but that is no reason to talk rubbish. No, i don't give random data. Dessys boosted by 25% and hybrids by like 15%. You said all "combat ships have been boosted by a third" not a class of ships and 1 weapon type were boosted. Also "25%" and "like 15%" are not a third. So yeah.. you do come up with random data
Yea, i am talking about relevant class of ships and weapon type on dessys that are most used. And if you look at changes it really is 25% and 15%. And sorry, its not 33,333% its even more, its 40%.
I am talking with real data in every post here and you can see that they are true and 3,4 of you are attacking me... That Ain't Right |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
190
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:27:00 -
[209] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Thats why i said "BC size". And Ill repeat myself again: "I used the cheapest prices in Hi-sec for both. Don't tell me that you are the one who is only buying from Jita even there half of things cost much more then its worth. " I used data from web market site that compare prices between all EVE markets.
And what we're saying is that irrespective of the moving prices and previous highs and lows, a x10 jump between T1 and T2 hull prices is on the low end for a large majority of the ships, it's sometimes much greater.
This means that the point you're claiming that the Cov->Hulk jump of x10 is too much compared to other ships is pretty much flat out wrong. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6005
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:27:00 -
[210] - Quote
bornaa wrote:http://eve-central.com Proxy error. So I'll go by the numbers that are easily available GÇö Jita, which is what all the numbers are trending towards anyway.
Quote:See damnation price in like Rens or Amarr - and you cant say they don't follow the trend. and all other prices are there. GǪand if you pick a specific spot, it's not a good idea to mix-and-match because then you're picking between places that are being affected by speculation and those that aren't. Going for GÇ£cheapest in highsecGÇ¥ is good if you're looking to find a deal GÇö it's not a good way of comparing things. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:30:00 -
[211] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote:What is the max amount of DPS a ganker can do in 0.5 before concord show up?
wonder what that number is
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:30:00 -
[212] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Haha. Miners just never stop complaining and crying. They aren't even getting CCPwnd like Incursion runners and gankers - they just crying because they aren't getting the buffs they want. Let me clue you in. Generally ships get buffs when they are underutilized. (well, except for Black Ops) If it was REALLY bad, nobody would fly it. I don't think you can honestly say that Hulks are underutilized - its one of the most commonly flown ships in the game. It would be like CCP buffing the Drakes' resists because 'so many of them die'. The problem isn't with the ship - its with the miners themselves. Like others said, it can fit 3x Strips and sport 33K EHP, and with Orca support almost 40K. If you gave it another low slot - then watch as the vast majority of miners use it for Cargo-Expanders and make their ships even EASIER to kill.
/thread
The high-sec mining world is full of stupid, miners that fit no tank and then cry when they're suicide ganked with a fully supported intended game mechanic, fit a tank, die less to catalysts
I also support the guy that said that high sec mining should only be for new players getting started, there are plenty of low sec station systems out there which are empty most of the time. |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:31:00 -
[213] - Quote
Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:http://eve-central.com Proxy error. So I'll go by the numbers that are easily available GÇö Jita, which is what all the numbers are trending towards anyway. Quote:See damnation price in like Rens or Amarr - and you cant say they don't follow the trend. and all other prices are there. GǪand if you pick a specific spot, it's not a good idea to mix-and-match because then you're picking between places that are being affected by speculation and those that aren't. Going for GÇ£cheapest in highsecGÇ¥ is good if you're looking to find a deal GÇö it's not a good way of comparing things.
Copy paste, don't click it.
And i am goint the way as I go when i buy things and everybody can do it. And i am picking the best spot for both things I compare so its good statistics data. That Ain't Right |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
660
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:31:00 -
[214] - Quote
My only problem with a Hulk...
If it is fit for a reasonable tank (solo mind you), it has less yield and less tank than a mining fit BS. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
587
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:39:00 -
[215] - Quote
When exploiters, gankbears and a number of assorted wankers keep arguing for stupid fits and unreasonable "precuations", in an effort to not change a class of ships, you know there is a balance issue. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:40:00 -
[216] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:My only problem with a Hulk...
If it is fit for a reasonable tank (solo mind you), it has less yield and less tank than a mining fit BS.
Can you post that fit? I cant seem to get a BS close to a hulk. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:44:00 -
[217] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:When exploiters, gankbears and a number of assorted wankers keep arguing for stupid fits and unreasonable "precuations", in an effort to not change a class of ships, you know there is a balance issue.
And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted? |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:47:00 -
[218] - Quote
I don't think the Hulk needs any kinda change to the ship other then a slight tweak to the CPU. I'm not sure if that is needed or to make the Mining Upgrade skill lower the CPU amount more then it does. This should shouldn't have to Fit Faction or Dead Space mods just to have a tank. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:48:00 -
[219] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Look people, I am not miner, I dont have not even one SP in industry, I am just saying what I think and I say it because my best RL friend who was miner quit EVE and i want to see him back.
I only want, if they boosted offence of combat ships by a third, boost defense on mining ships by third. you're an idiot shut up forever |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:48:00 -
[220] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: Please tell me you are trolling and are not serious.. please please please
So because you have no data to refute my argument you will resort to ridicule because it shows, in detail, an uncomfortable truth. This ship cannot tank. You can try to buff EHP with a resist tank but unless you throw absolutely everything into tank you cannot do a fit that can survive an attack by a single tornado in a 0.7 or lower system.
The idea that players (not bots) are going to self select to be victims by flying such a ship is absurd. If high sec mining is going to be the source for low end mins, Trit may well hit 20.
|
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:48:00 -
[221] - Quote
MIrple wrote:I don't think the Hulk needs any kinda change to the ship other then a slight tweak to the CPU. I'm not sure if that is needed or to make the Mining Upgrade skill lower the CPU amount more then it does. This should shouldn't have to Fit Faction or Dead Space mods just to have a tank. reset tnt |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
588
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:49:00 -
[222] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:49:00 -
[223] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Droxlyn wrote:
Stuff about comparing ships
So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor. Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor. Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor. Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.
Get ganked. Grab another Covetor out of the station. Back to grabbing ice for the POS/minerals for the industrial stuff. The "Moar tears! HTFU! Die Carebear! Elite PVP 14 year old" is happy. Minor inconvenience for me.
Why?
I can lose five fully equipped Covetors for the cost of a single, empty Hulk hull.
Face it. The Hulk is a silly purchase. The benefit/cost ratio is so far out of whack as to render it worthless. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:49:00 -
[224] - Quote
MIrple wrote:This should shouldn't have to Fit Faction or Dead Space mods just to have a tank.
They don't... |
dave3NG
mgfc
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:50:00 -
[225] - Quote
Just boost cargo capacity. Therefore it's a buff to sensible people who may fit less cargo expanders in exchange for defensive modules but still mean that most highsec miners who wont can be ganked just as easily.
|
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:50:00 -
[226] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship.
It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:53:00 -
[227] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. you get to pick increased yield or increased survivability not both |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:53:00 -
[228] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:
So because you have no data to refute my argument you will resort to ridicule because it shows, in detail, an uncomfortable truth. This ship cannot tank. You can try to buff EHP with a resist tank but unless you throw absolutely everything into tank you cannot do a fit that can survive an attack by a single tornado in a 0.7 or lower system.
The idea that players (not bots) are going to self select to be victims by flying such a ship is absurd. If high sec mining is going to be the source for low end mins, Trit may well hit 20.
Name a stationary T2 cruiser that can survive a 1400mm tornado without putting on a hefty tank. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:54:00 -
[229] - Quote
this thread reminds me why all miners must hang, getting out the gunrunner later and going to murder some miners |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
588
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:55:00 -
[230] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated.
And it cost how much? |
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:55:00 -
[231] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:And it cost how much? silence ignorant peasant |
Alara IonStorm
1970
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:57:00 -
[232] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship.
you get to pick increased yield or increased survivability not both All ships should be like the Hulk. I fit 425mm Guns / Gyro's / TE's, Large Shield Extenders / DCU II / Defense Rigs, Tackle / MWD / Neuts on my Hurricane.
CCP should take away 2 of those 3 Options so it to can be as balanced as the Hulk. Common folks, Shoot, Tank or EWAR to far. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:57:00 -
[233] - Quote
wah wah wah my ship that makes free isk requires me to think about how to avoid dying you scum make me ill
and ccp made it harder to pod you too ffffffff
oh well i've got an idea for how to do it |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
588
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:58:00 -
[234] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:And it cost how much? silence ignorant peasant
Fck off troll |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6006
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:58:00 -
[235] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Copy paste, don't click it. GǪand the site only gave me proxy errors.
Quote:And i am picking the best spot for both things I compare so its good statistics data. No, it's awful statistics data because you're picking and choosing between prices that are affected by different factors, and this makes them very bad for comparisons. If you want to compare prices, make sure all of them are subject to the same influences.
Quote:You cant compare things, of lets say ores in RL, from one market, one ore is mined 1km from that market and other 20.000km. GǪand that's exactly what you're doing if you're picking the lowest price GÇö you're not actually looking at what stuff is worth on a common market. Jita is that common market, because even if prices are inflated, they are universally inflated and that's what matters.
Anyway, the fact remains: the 10+ù markup for a T2 barge is actually quite low, even within the already very low markup BC-sized segment. Moreover, since cost isn't a balancing factor, it is also quite irrelevant.
Jas Dor wrote:So because you have no data to refute my argument you will resort to ridicule because it shows, in detail, an uncomfortable truth. This ship cannot tank. GǪexcept that the Hulk can tank just fine if you choose to do so. It can survive a single Tornado attack with ease. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:58:00 -
[236] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. you get to pick increased yield or increased survivability not both All ships should be like this. I fit 425mm Guns / Gyro's / TE's, Large Shield Extenders / DCU II / Defense Rigs, Tackle / MWD / Neuts on my Hurricane. CCP should take away 2 of those 3 Options so it to can be as balanced as the Hulk. Common folks, Shoot, Tank or EWAR to far. for armor tanking ships you must trade dps for tank
for shield tanking ships you trade other things for tank, in the hurricane example you've gimped your tank for mwd and tackle
soz you're wrong yet again wretched peasant scum |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:59:00 -
[237] - Quote
it is only appropriate you be flogged like the wretches you are as you scrabble in the dirt for pennies trying to avoid any sort of risk |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:02:00 -
[238] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated.
On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway.
On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come
insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing
for near of the above ship yield.
Anyone see something wrong? No, eh?
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:02:00 -
[239] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
And it cost how much?
+10 to 15 mil on top on the hulk. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:04:00 -
[240] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated. On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway. On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing for near of the above ship yield. Anyone see something wrong? No, eh? who would have thought the guy who can't do math and unironically believes in reading goat entrails sorry i mean technical analysis would come up with this sort of brilliant insight |
|
Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:04:00 -
[241] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated. On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway. On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing for near of the above ship yield. Anyone see something wrong? No, eh?
No as in over 2 years I have never lost a hulk to a gank |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:05:00 -
[242] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha you are a joke in literally every aspect of eve you should probably quit |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
588
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:05:00 -
[243] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
And it cost how much?
+10 to 15 mil on top on the hulk.
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all? |
Alara IonStorm
1970
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:05:00 -
[244] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote: for armor tanking ships you must trade dps for tank
for shield tanking ships you trade other things for tank, in the hurricane example you've gimped your tank for mwd and tackle
[Hurricane, Tank, Tackle, Top Guns, Damg Mods.] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Medium 'Gremlin' Power Core Disruptor I Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
I seem to be able to fit all the guns and 2 Gyro's. Show me your Hulk Fit that lets me fit a MLU II, DCU LL, 3 Strip Miner III's and a Medium Shield Extender LL while leaving the rigs free. I would prefer 2 MLU's like this Armor Cane but I will settle for one. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6007
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:06:00 -
[245] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway.
On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come [insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing] for near of the above ship yield.
Anyone see something wrong? No, eh? No. What's wrong with it. All I see is the very good design decision that a small inexpensive ship can kill a larger, more expensive one. This is as it should be.
By the way, has anyone mentioned that cost isn't a balancing factor? You seem to assume that it isGǪ
Alara IonStorm wrote:I seem to be able to fit all the guns and 2 Gyro's. In other words, you've sacrificed gank for tank. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
533
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:06:00 -
[246] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha you are a joke in literally every aspect of eve you should probably quit
I am using you idiots to make money. Keep sperging. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:08:00 -
[247] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway.
On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come
insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing
for near of the above ship yield.
Anyone see something wrong? No, eh?
You are stupid to try and mine in hulkageddon/BAT interdiction area?
The hardest mining ship in empire to gank is the veldought and even that docks up in hulkageddon. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:08:00 -
[248] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha you are a joke in literally every aspect of eve you should probably quit I am using you idiots to make money. Keep sperging.
we have been considering you as our designated auditor for some goonswarm ventures, you have the exact sort of ability to ferret out scams we like in our auditors when we are looking for pubbie investments |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:08:00 -
[249] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: And what is so unreasonable about the fit I posted?
Did it bring yeilds to near max yeild covetor levels? If so, then it is a silly fit for a specialized mining ship. It mines slightly better while being ungankable to all but the most dedicated. On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway. On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing for near of the above ship yield. Anyone see something wrong? No, eh?
Eventually, you come to a fork in the road where theory-craft goes one way and common sense goes another. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:09:00 -
[250] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: I seem to be able to fit all the guns and 2 Gyro's. Show me your Hulk Fit that lets me fit a MLU II, DCU LL, 3 Strip Miner III's and a Medium Shield Extender LL while leaving the rigs free. I would prefer 2 MLU's like this Armor Cane but I will settle for one.
so you post a ship with a gimped tank and are seemingly unaware you've done so
good work inspector you've done it again |
|
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:10:00 -
[251] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all?
Because it won't die? |
Barakach
R-ISK Shadow Operations.
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:10:00 -
[252] - Quote
Roime wrote:Why do people still insist on mining in hisec?
High security space is an area meant for new players to learn the game, and for people to come together to trade. The idea is clear, once you get the hang of the game, you move out of the noobzone and start playing.
If you can fly a T2 fitted Hulk, you should leave the cradle and join or form a corporation. There are no suicide gankers outside hisec, you can mine your heart out in corp/alliance mining operations in environments that you and your friends can control. Now is the the perfect time to leave cesspool behind and get rich.
Free your mind and your Hulk fill follow!
Their reason for staying in high sec is no better than your reason for them leaving it.
They do what they want, you do what you want.
The game mechanics should allow one to make an "ok" profit solo-mining in high sec and have a fighting change to get away from a mild gank.
Assuming the hulk has a little defense, it should not be profitable for a single person to warp in and kill them while in the higher end of high sec.
This is is suppose to be fun for many play styles. Not all play styles should huge money makers, but for some that's ok. |
Alara IonStorm
1970
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:11:00 -
[253] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote: I seem to be able to fit all the guns and 2 Gyro's. Show me your Hulk Fit that lets me fit a MLU II, DCU LL, 3 Strip Miner III's and a Medium Shield Extender II while leaving the rigs free. I would prefer 2 MLU's like this Armor Cane but I will settle for one.
so you post a ship with a gimped tank and are seemingly unaware you've done so good work inspector you've done it again Standard Armor Brawl Cane.
Still waiting on that fit. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
588
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:13:00 -
[254] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all?
Because it won't die?
LOL, sure it will, and with the more expensive tank, it is likely to drop more, that makes it worth sending in a couple of extra trashers. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:13:00 -
[255] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote: I seem to be able to fit all the guns and 2 Gyro's. Show me your Hulk Fit that lets me fit a MLU II, DCU LL, 3 Strip Miner III's and a Medium Shield Extender II while leaving the rigs free. I would prefer 2 MLU's like this Armor Cane but I will settle for one.
so you post a ship with a gimped tank and are seemingly unaware you've done so good work inspector you've done it again Standard Armor Brawl Cane. Still waiting on that fit. yes it would be the standard fit because the tradeoffs are correct, where you have tossed out tank in favor of dps in a highly attractive tradeoff
fitting mlu's is deciding to forgo tank because your wrenched peasant mind really needs that extra penny, so it is designed to prevent you from fitting the two best tank mods a hulk can have at once |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:13:00 -
[256] - Quote
i would be puzzled at how someone could be so dumb, but hey: miner |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:15:00 -
[257] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all?
Because it won't die? LOL, sure it will, and with the more expensive tank, it is likely to drop more, that makes it worth sending in a couple of extra trashers. this is why miners are so hilarious to kill
since you don't understand ship fitting you start fitting inapproporiate deadspace mods
during the first great hulk jihad it was hilarious how many pubbies we convinced to fit a-type shield reps to resist ganks |
Alara IonStorm
1970
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:16:00 -
[258] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote: yes it would be the standard fit because the tradeoffs are correct, where you have tossed out tank in favor of dps in a highly attractive tradeoff
fitting mlu's is deciding to forgo tank because your wrenched peasant mind really needs that extra penny, so it is designed to prevent you from fitting the two best tank mods a hulk can have at once
Bolded the right part.
It should be able to fit the equivalent of Mining Damage Mods and Tank without having to Rig and Power Grid Mod the Heck out of it. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:18:00 -
[259] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote: this is why miners are so hilarious to kill
since you don't understand ship fitting you start fitting inapproporiate deadspace mods
during the first great hulk jihad it was hilarious how many pubbies we convinced to fit a-type shield reps to resist ganks
Oh look, the dim wit troll can't help but make generalizations and use personal pronouns, assuming he knows everything about everyone.
Keep proving you're one of the sheep. That's a good boy. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:20:00 -
[260] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote: yes it would be the standard fit because the tradeoffs are correct, where you have tossed out tank in favor of dps in a highly attractive tradeoff
fitting mlu's is deciding to forgo tank because your wrenched peasant mind really needs that extra penny, so it is designed to prevent you from fitting the two best tank mods a hulk can have at once
Bolded the right part. It should be able to fit the equivalent of Mining Damage Mods and Tank without having to Rig and Power Grid Mod the Heck out of it. wrong, moron |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
533
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:21:00 -
[261] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha you are a joke in literally every aspect of eve you should probably quit I am using you idiots to make money. Keep sperging. we have been considering you as our designated auditor for some goonswarm ventures, you have the exact sort of ability to ferret out scams we like in our auditors when we are looking for pubbie investments
I am selective, I have loaned money and have done audits to GS people who deserve to. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:21:00 -
[262] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote: this is why miners are so hilarious to kill
since you don't understand ship fitting you start fitting inapproporiate deadspace mods
during the first great hulk jihad it was hilarious how many pubbies we convinced to fit a-type shield reps to resist ganks
Oh look, the dim wit troll can't help but make generalizations and use personal pronouns, assuming he knows everything about everyone. Keep proving you're one of the sheep. That's a good boy. its funny you call other people sheep while you're complaining your grazing is insufficently safe from predators
highsec miners are, without exception, dimwitted idiots who deserve the destruction meeted out to them |
Severian Carnifex
164
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:22:00 -
[263] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Yea, i am talking about relevant class of ships and weapon type on dessys that are most used. And if you look at changes it really is 25% and 15%. And sorry, its not 33,333% its even more, its 40%.
Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was before 6 months.
And gankers got tier3 BCs too (cheaper gankers BS). |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:22:00 -
[264] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
So just a bit under the cost of a covetor that can be nearly fully insured. I'll refer to V V's argument, why fly the hulk at all?
Because it won't die? LOL, sure it will, and with the more expensive tank, it is likely to drop more, that makes it worth sending in a couple of extra trashers.
You would need a least 20 of them, most likely more. There is a reason why my hulk is 3 years old. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:23:00 -
[265] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:bornaa wrote:Yea, i am talking about relevant class of ships and weapon type on dessys that are most used. And if you look at changes it really is 25% and 15%. And sorry, its not 33,333% its even more, its 40%. Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago.And gankers got tier3 BCs too (cheaper gankers BS). tornados cost more to use now than an artillery apoc did with insurance |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:24:00 -
[266] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:its funny you call other people sheep while you're complaining your grazing is insufficently safe from predators
highsec miners are, without exception, dimwitted idiots who deserve the destruction meeted out to them
I've mined twice in the past year, go assume someplace else, sheep. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:24:00 -
[267] - Quote
i am somewhat dissapointed the tornado is so common now because the highlight of ganking was always the miner with about ten logistics buddies and no tank, one second gloating about how he was immune to the goonies, the next second wondering where his ship went and what that apoc was doing |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:24:00 -
[268] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You would need a least 20 of them, most likely more. There is a reason why my hulk is 3 years old.
Mine is six, what's your point? |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:25:00 -
[269] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:its funny you call other people sheep while you're complaining your grazing is insufficently safe from predators
highsec miners are, without exception, dimwitted idiots who deserve the destruction meeted out to them I've mined twice in the past year, go assume someplace else, sheep. "i graze on delicious green grass only occasionally now that i realized the predators are out to get me, and instead spend my time hiding, this surely proves i am not callow prey who deserves to be slaughtered and devoured" |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:26:00 -
[270] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: You would need a least 20 of them, most likely more. There is a reason why my hulk is 3 years old.
Mine is six, what's your point?
Just punching holes in whatever argument you are trying here. Hulks tank fine its players that are the weak link here. |
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:27:00 -
[271] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Drew Solaert wrote:You can get 24k ehp out of it without gang boosts.
But you cut yield to the point you may as well be in an insured covetor instead, with zero tank, and a small loss if your ganked. If you use the lows for tank you get less yield as a mining BS. But it's well known, that CCP HATE miner+industrials (check my sig). - bad joke CPU + Grid - bad joke anti-gang. Anti passive targeter? Anti cargo scan? WHERE ARE THEY??? - bad joke slot layouts. Multi million ISK BC sice hull with less slots then a damn T1 frigat?? - agility and speed like rocks And all this for what? A tiny bit of more cargo space? one word: STUPID! The Orca isn't actually a capital. It's an Industrial Command Ship. The Rorqual is the Capital Industrial.
First it is listed as: ships -> CAPITAL ships -> CAPITAL industrial ship -> ore -> Orca So it IS a capital!
Second even if you see it just as a Battleship size (which it isn't as it would be listed as Battleships) .. Show me any other BS with 2-4-3 slot layout and just 430 CPU 960 PG.
For comperision: Rifter 3-3-4 = same number of slots Drake 525 CPU 850 PG = CAPITAL industrial has slightly better PG but worth CPU then a Battlecruiser
Dude, that's nothing but a big fat bad joke! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:27:00 -
[272] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:"i graze on delicious green grass only occasionally now that i realized the predators are out to get me, and instead spend my time hiding, this surely proves i am not callow prey who deserves to be slaughtered and devoured"
Aww how cute. Don't forget sheep boy, it is not only crickets making sound in feilds. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:28:00 -
[273] - Quote
look it thinks its people |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:30:00 -
[274] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Just punching holes in whatever argument you are trying here. Hulks tank fine its players that are the weak link here.
Oh it's the players that are at fault, that old canard just doesn't fly. Try it on a noobie who has never heard it before.
The picture may very well change after crimewatch 2 is implemented, we'll have to wait and see. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:30:00 -
[275] - Quote
i believe all miners should start fitting more expensive implants, so their podmails are even more hilarious |
Alyssa VonDeadAir
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:33:00 -
[276] - Quote
Wow, you mean I can't optimize my hulk to have full mining capability and an unbreakable tank? WTF CCP
Oh wait, if I drop down to t1 strip miners, fit shield resistance mods + shield booster in mid, use resistance rigs, and still keep MLU IIx2....I now have a decent tank and decent mining? And if I have two of these with shield logi drones, it takes even longer to kill?
My word, I'm confused now. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6007
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:38:00 -
[277] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago. That would make the buff pointless, so why on earth would they do something that stupid?
Adunh Slavy wrote:Oh it's the players that are at fault Since it's the player who chooses to make himself easier to kill, and then complain about how easy he is to kill, yes. It is 100% the idiot's fault.
Mystrak wrote:No. The orca is under the capital ships section. GǪand it requires no capital skills; no capital arrays; and CCP lists it in their ship charts as a GÇ£largeGÇ¥ ship, together with the battleships (and, incidentally, the freighters). So no, the Orca isn't really a capship GÇö the Rorqual is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:40:00 -
[278] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Mystrak wrote:No. The orca is under the capital ships section. So, what? Not all battleship sized modules can be fit on all frigs either. If a ship is listed under Battleship .. you expect to be able to fit Battleship size moduls, aren't you?
Hell, most of you fit 1600mm plates (BS SIZE) or Large Shield Extender (BS SIZE) or X-Large Booster (BS SIZE) on everything starting from Cruiser hulls.
From your argument NOTHING should be able to fit a 1600mm or Large Shield Extender EXCEPT Battleships.
By by HACs and Drakes with DOUBLE BS moduls!
But no, this would hurt your playstyle. But industrials/miners are third class players anyway right? So why should they get the same fitting rights as you get? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Severian Carnifex
164
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:42:00 -
[279] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago. That would make the buff pointless, so why on earth would they do something that stupid?
oh... so ganking is intended to be only viable gameplay for Destroyers in EVE??? Can DEV please confirm this please??? |
Alain Kinsella
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:43:00 -
[280] - Quote
OK, lets try a different tack - modifying mining ships in a subtle way.
-> Drop cargohold to 500 m3 (allow crystals and spare mods/drones) -> Add a (non-expandable) ore bay of decent size to each class, say 5K for barges and 10K for exhumers (maybe scale across the entire set) -> re-work strip miners slightly so they drop into the ore bay
-> (optional) give exhumers the sig radius and agility one class below the barges, to allow an I-Stab/Nano agility fit for Low and Null (more risk, more reward)
This would still allow you to fit for tank or yield, and afk is still possible to some extent. But gives more possibilities on both sides (including the chance for smarter targets maybe), all with a tweak that's not related to tanking.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:44:00 -
[281] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago. That would make the buff pointless, so why on earth would they do something that stupid? Adunh Slavy wrote:Oh it's the players that are at fault Since it's the player who chooses to make himself easier to kill, and then complain about how easy he is to kill, yes. It is 100% the idiot's fault. Wrong.
The buff happened to make this weapons and ships compareble to other COMBAT ships.
NOT to make your anti sozial ganker life easier!
CCP just ignored (as usual) the influence on Industrials and Miners (as CCP hate Indutrials and Miners, we all know it). Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Severian Carnifex
164
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:44:00 -
[282] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:bornaa wrote:Yea, i am talking about relevant class of ships and weapon type on dessys that are most used. And if you look at changes it really is 25% and 15%. And sorry, its not 33,333% its even more, its 40%. Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago.And gankers got tier3 BCs too (cheaper gankers BS). tornados cost more to use now than an artillery apoc did with insurance
And what would happen if you did not got tier3 BCs? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
308
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:46:00 -
[283] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago. That would make the buff pointless, so why on earth would they do something that stupid? Adunh Slavy wrote:Oh it's the players that are at fault Since it's the player who chooses to make himself easier to kill, and then complain about how easy he is to kill, yes. It is 100% the idiot's fault. Wrong. The buff happened to make this weapons and ships compareble to other COMBAT ships. NOT to make your anti sozial ganker life easier! CCP just ignored (as usual) the influence on Industrials and Miners (as CCP hate Indutrials and Miners, we all know it). Right, because CCP doesn't want money from Industrialists.
The real problem is that Industrialists don't want balance from CCP. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6008
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:46:00 -
[284] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:oh... so ganking is intended to be only viable gameplay for Destroyers in EVE??? Can DEV please confirm this please??? No, but why on earth would they implement a change that counteracts a buff they just made like that?
Put another way: why on earth should they buff the Hulk just because destroyers were buffed? If it's because destroyers are often used to kill hulks, then the logic you're implying applies: they buffed the destroyers so they can kill hulks more easily, so why should they undo that buff? If it's for some other reason, then the increased ability of destroyers is irrelevant, so why bring them up?
Jojo Jackson wrote:Wrong.
The buff happened to make this weapons and ships compareble to other COMBAT ships.
NOT to make your anti sozial ganker life easier! Actually, one inevitably generates the other. Regardless, if they buffed the destroyers to improve their combat ability, then there is no reason to buff the Hulk just because they buffed the destroyers, because they have nothing to do with each other.
You can't have it both ways, and no matter which way you choose, there is no reason to buff Hulks. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:47:00 -
[285] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Just punching holes in whatever argument you are trying here. Hulks tank fine its players that are the weak link here. Oh it's the players that are at fault, that old canard just doesn't fly. Try it on a noobie who has never heard it before. The picture may very well change after crimewatch 2 is implemented, we'll have to wait and see.
So its not the pilots fault for not tanking their ship? |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:47:00 -
[286] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote: And what would happen if you did not got tier3 BCs?
well then it would be even more of a nerf but i tend to make it rain brutixes and thoraxes and save the alphaing for when it's just going to be incredibly satisfying: and in that case i don't care about an extra 30m |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:48:00 -
[287] - Quote
the catalyst is good but I prefer the sure thing of a thorax rammed right up the orehole or a brutix rammed up two oreholes at once |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:49:00 -
[288] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Oh it's the players that are at fault Since it's the player who chooses to make himself easier to kill, and then complain about how easy he is to kill, yes. It is 100% the idiot's fault.
So why does the ganker get a security status penalty, he should be blameless, right? |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:49:00 -
[289] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:
CCP just ignored (as usual) the influence on Industrials and Miners (as CCP hate Indutrials and Miners, we all know it).
Because CCP never stopped insurance payouts for concorded ships... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
272
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:51:00 -
[290] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote: this is why miners are so hilarious to kill
since you don't understand ship fitting you start fitting inapproporiate deadspace mods
during the first great hulk jihad it was hilarious how many pubbies we convinced to fit a-type shield reps to resist ganks
Oh look, the dim wit troll can't help but make generalizations and use personal pronouns, assuming he knows everything about everyone. Keep proving you're one of the sheep. That's a good boy. its funny you call other people sheep while you're complaining your grazing is insufficently safe from predators highsec miners are, without exception, dimwitted idiots who deserve the destruction meeted out to them
personally if you are in a noob corp longer then 30 days you should be forced into a npc corp that can be war decced...
and if you want to kill a high sec minner you should war dec the person/corp and then kill him in a legit mannor...
or get enough ships together to effectivly bloop him... like 4 nadoes so the cost ratio is atleast half of a hulk...
kinda ironic thats its goons who complained to ccp about titans bloping thier maels/drakes when they are blobing hulks left right and center(using simular broken mechanics)...
I just think its hypocritical to complain about titans bloping drakes and then complain about people complaining about hulks being bloped... |
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:52:00 -
[291] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: So its not the pilots fault for not tanking their ship?
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning? |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:52:00 -
[292] - Quote
it's "blapped" not "bloped" or "blobed" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6008
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:52:00 -
[293] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:So why does the ganker get a security status penalty, he should be blameless, right? What on earth are you on about? Why should he be blameless?
He gets the sec status penalty because he chooses to.
The Hulk player is at fault for being easy to kill because he chooses to be easy to kill. What's confusing you about this very simple relationship?
Quote:Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning? How is it not the player's fault if he chooses not to tank his ship? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:52:00 -
[294] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not the pilots fault for not tanking their ship?
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning? nobody expects you to do much of anything with a line of reasoning besides stare blankly at it and wonder if you can eat it |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:55:00 -
[295] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning?
I expect you to use the grey matter. If you do not tank your ship and then get blown up by a destroyer it is entirely your fault. The ganker simply took advantage of your stupidity/greed. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:55:00 -
[296] - Quote
Mystrak wrote:No. The orca is under the capital ships section. GǪand it requires no capital skills; no capital arrays; and CCP lists it in their ship charts as a GÇ£largeGÇ¥ ship, together with the battleships (and, incidentally, the freighters). So no, the Orca isn't really a capship GÇö the Rorqual is.[/quote] If it would be listed as BS (which it isn't INGAME) .. WHY doesn't it has the same amount of slots, CPU, PG as any other BS size ship?
Min 6 high, as shield tanker min 7 mid, min 4 lows and anough CPU+PG to fit a common BS fit: (oh and base cap, shield, cap recharg, shield recharge on par with BS ... not just some gimped T1 frig stats!!!) - 2* LSE - 1*XL-Boost - 2*Hardener - MWD - Survey Scanner (as it has the bonus) - DC - 3*gank link - 3* tractor (as it has the bonus) - 3 lows for whatever people want using T2 moduls .. NOT super expensive officer/dead space stuff!
Mael = 5-6-8 my Orca = 4-7-6 still 2 less slots then a BS Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:56:00 -
[297] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:If it would be listed as BS (which it isn't INGAME) .. WHY doesn't it has the same amount of slots, CPU, PG as any other BS size ship? For the same reason the Hulk doesn't have the same amount of slots, CPU, PG as any other BC-sized ship.
I can't be bothered to scrub through 80 hours of fanfest video, but it's in one of the presentations about ship iterations GÇö they show the full chart for ORE and industrial ships (which they didn't include in the blog), and the Orca apparently doesn't qualify as capital, just like what the skill reqs and (lack of) usage limitations would suggest. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:58:00 -
[298] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:So why does the ganker get a security status penalty, he should be blameless, right? What on earth are you on about? Why should he be blameless?
You said it was the victims fault 100%? Is there some sliver above 100% that I am unaware of? Shall we check your math? 100% seems pretty absolute to me, how about you?
Tippia wrote:He gets the sec status penalty because he chooses to. The Hulk player is at fault for being easy to kill because he chooses to be easy to kill. What's confusing you about this very simple relationship? Quote:Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning? How is it not the player's fault if he chooses not to tank his ship?
And your equivocation and huburis is exposed. Thanks for playing. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:59:00 -
[299] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning?
I expect you to use the grey matter. If you do not tank your ship and then get blown up by a destroyer it is entirely your fault. The ganker simply took advantage of your stupidity/greed.
Which goes back to the point, why fly the hulk at all? Fly the covetor instead. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
127
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:59:00 -
[300] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:If it would be listed as BS (which it isn't INGAME) .. WHY doesn't it has the same amount of slots, CPU, PG as any other BS size ship? For the same reason the Hulk doesn't have the same amount of slots, CPU, PG as any other BC-sized ship. I can't be bothered to scrub through 80 hours of fanfest video, but it's in one of the presentations about ship iterations GÇö they show the full chart for ORE and industrial ships (which they didn't include in the blog), and the Orca apparently doesn't qualify as capital, just like what the skill reqs and (lack of) usage limitations would suggest. To make it eazy target for gankers? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:00:00 -
[301] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning?
I expect you to use the grey matter. If you do not tank your ship and then get blown up by a destroyer it is entirely your fault. The ganker simply took advantage of your stupidity/greed. Which goes back to the point, why fly the hulk at all? Fly the covetor instead. yet people fly the hulk in droves, indicating you are once again wrong |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:00:00 -
[302] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: So its not the pilots fault for not tanking their ship?
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning? nobody expects you to do much of anything with a line of reasoning besides stare blankly at it and wonder if you can eat it
Ah the block feature, how nice |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
309
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:00:00 -
[303] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:So why does the ganker get a security status penalty, he should be blameless, right? What on earth are you on about? Why should he be blameless? You said it was the victims fault 100%? Is there some sliver above 100% that I am unaware of? Shall we check your math? 100% seems pretty absolute to me, how about you? Tippia wrote:He gets the sec status penalty because he chooses to. The Hulk player is at fault for being easy to kill because he chooses to be easy to kill. What's confusing you about this very simple relationship? Quote:Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning? How is it not the player's fault if he chooses not to tank his ship? And your equivocation and huburis is exposed. Thanks for playing. That looks like vaginal irritation due to an excess of silicon dioxide granules to me, TBFH. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:01:00 -
[304] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:You said it was the victims fault 100% Learn to read. Yes, it's 100% the victim's fault if he chooses to make himself easy to kill. What's confusing you about this?
Why on earth would that suddenly make the attacker blameless for attacking and not earn him a sec penalty?
Quote:Which goes back to the point, why fly the hulk at all? Fly the covetor instead. GǪwhich goes back to the point: why does the Hulk need a buff, since it's obviously so much better than the Covetor that everyone is flying it, rather than what you claim to be an equally good ship?
Jojo Jackson wrote:To make it eazy target for gankers? No. To define its role. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Fractal Muse
Republic University Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:03:00 -
[305] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote: So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
Because High Sec miners tend to mine afk or doing something else at the same time.
Their ships are, for all intents and purposes, in a 0 risk situation -except- when Hulkageddon comes around. They are used to being, for intents and purposes, in a risk free position.
Typically suicide gankers do not target hulks because there is no real value to it.
Since Hulkageddon is, once again, around the corner miners are freaking out.
Instead of learning how to fit a bit of a tank onto their ship and paying attention while mining (keeping an eye on local, scanning, being aligned to a safe spot, you know all the stuff one usually learns quickly in 0.0 or low sec) many will complain about the ship. The ones who don't complain simply fit a tank, pay attention, and continue on. Others dock up and join the festivities. Some buy up hulks in advance and play the market. But there are always those who don't like having to adapt and learn something new so they head to the forums to complain and whine.
They want CCP to compensate for their lack of attention and knowledge for a player run event.
The hulk is a mining ship. It does what it does very well otherwise it wouldn't be used. The hulk isn't meant to be a tanking ship.
I wonder how the forums will react after destroy Jita day (I hope that one will become a regular event as well). Look for the incoming requests for freighter buffs and hauler 'fixes.'
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:05:00 -
[306] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Adunh Slavy]You said it was the victims fault 100% Learn to read. Yes, it's 100% the victim's fault if he chooses to make himself easy to kill. What's confusing you about this?
Learn not be so overly dramatic with your 100% absolutes. |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:06:00 -
[307] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
Are you really going to pretend it all comes down to one thing? Am I supposed to just fall for this line of reasoning?
I expect you to use the grey matter. If you do not tank your ship and then get blown up by a destroyer it is entirely your fault. The ganker simply took advantage of your stupidity/greed. Which goes back to the point, why fly the hulk at all? Fly the covetor instead.
Because Covetorgeddon doesn't have the same ring to it, I guess.
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:07:00 -
[308] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes, it's 100% the victim's fault if he chooses to make himself easy to kill. What's confusing you about this? Wrong.
CCP FORCES them to be a victim with gimped slot layouts and fitting stats!
In addition some "you mad bro" loser PvPer chose to pick eazy targets as he was to unskilled to survive real PvP. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:07:00 -
[309] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Learn not be so overly dramatic with your 100% absolutes. What's dramatic about it?
Is it, or is it not, the victim who has chosen to make his ship easy to kill? If it's not the victim, please explain how someone managed to change his fit into something he didn't want to use, and how that someone managed to force the victim to undock when he didn't want to.
Jojo Jackson wrote:Wrong.
CCP FORCES them to be a victim with cimped slot layouts and fitting stats GǪexcept that you can still choose to fit a tank or choose not to, and that decision is 100% yours. No-one else can make it for you. If you choose to not fit a tank, then it is 100% your fault for choosing to make your ship easy to kill.
In addition, you can choose to pick another ship. People choose not to, for some odd reasonGǪ but again, that choice is 100% up to you, and you cannot blame anyone else but yourself for your choice. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:08:00 -
[310] - Quote
Sycho Pathic wrote: Because Covetorgeddon doesn't have the same ring to it, I guess.
That I can buy |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
309
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:08:00 -
[311] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Yes, it's 100% the victim's fault if he chooses to make himself easy to kill. What's confusing you about this? Wrong. CCP FORCES them to be a victim with gimped slot layouts and fitting stats! In addition some "you mad bro" loser PvPer chose to pick eazy targets as he was to unskilled to survive real PvP. I like how you're claiming you're forced to be a loser by CCP, not by your choice of playstyle or your individual gameplay proficiency. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:09:00 -
[312] - Quote
meh stupid interwebs |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
433
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:09:00 -
[313] - Quote
Tippia wrote:DamnationArmored Warfare Link - Damage Control II Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II 4+ù Command Processor I 6+ù Co-Processor II 2+ù Medium Trimark Armor Pump I GǪoh dear. At just under 50k EHP, It can also be ganked by a small gang of destroyers. It's obvious that the Damnation needs to have its tanking abilities drastically buffed because it's such a weak ship.
Nice going comparing apples with tech moons.
Who needs television when you have EVE? EVE drama, best drama. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:12:00 -
[314] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Yes, it's 100% the victim's fault if he chooses to make himself easy to kill. What's confusing you about this? Wrong. CCP FORCES them to be a victim with gimped slot layouts and fitting stats! In addition some "you mad bro" loser PvPer chose to pick eazy targets as he was to unskilled to survive real PvP. I like how you're claiming you're forced to be a loser by CCP, not by your choice of playstyle or your individual gameplay proficiency. So much fail, unbeliveble and terrible troll attemp.
There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:12:00 -
[315] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Nice going comparing apples with tech moons. Good thing that I didn't then. I compared a GÇ£fit for its roleGÇ¥ fit with the kind of GÇ£fit for its roleGÇ¥ fit that people want to put on their Hulks, after which they complain that their Hulks need to be buffed because of how weak they become with that role-specific fit.
If you fit the Damnation for its role, it's a weak ship and obviously needs to have its tank buffedGǪ or maybe you could just fit a tank to it and see what happens, much like how you could approach fitting a hulk. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:14:00 -
[316] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Learn not be so overly dramatic with your 100% absolutes. What's dramatic about it? Is it, or is it not, the victim who has chosen to make his ship easy to kill? If it's not the victim, please explain how someone managed to change his fit into something he didn't want to use, and how that someone managed to force the victim to undock when he didn't want to.
There is no such thing as a gank proof ship. There is no point in putting on as much tank as the cost of an insured covetor. The hulk is redundant.
The drama is you running around calling people idiots and blaming them for 100% of things, much of which is beyond their control. Doing what you can to make it a black and white argument is beneath you. |
Avila Cracko
309
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:16:00 -
[317] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Tippia wrote:DamnationArmored Warfare Link - Damage Control II Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II 4+ù Command Processor I 6+ù Co-Processor II 2+ù Medium Trimark Armor Pump I GǪoh dear. At just under 50k EHP, It can also be ganked by a small gang of destroyers. It's obvious that the Damnation needs to have its tanking abilities drastically buffed because it's such a weak ship. Nice going comparing apples with tech moons.
Tippia wrote:Pak Narhoo wrote:Nice going comparing apples with tech moons. Good thing that I didn't then. I compared a Gǣfit for its roleGǥ fit with the kind of Gǣfit for its roleGǥ fit that people want to put on their Hulks, after which they complain that their Hulks need to be buffed because of how weak they become with that role-specific fit. If you fit the Damnation for its role, it's a weak ship and obviously needs to have its tank buffedGǪ or maybe you could just fit a tank to it and see what happens, much like how you could approach fitting a hulk.
You see... she just said that Hulk should have 50k EHP. Hulk is BC sized T2 ship, and fitted for its role should have "just under 50k EHP", just like Damnation.
Where to sign??? truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
309
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:17:00 -
[318] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Yes, it's 100% the victim's fault if he chooses to make himself easy to kill. What's confusing you about this? Wrong. CCP FORCES them to be a victim with gimped slot layouts and fitting stats! In addition some "you mad bro" loser PvPer chose to pick eazy targets as he was to unskilled to survive real PvP. I like how you're claiming you're forced to be a loser by CCP, not by your choice of playstyle or your individual gameplay proficiency. So much fail, unbeliveble and terrible troll attemp. There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP You forgot about:
Because idiot carebears livestream their mining ops so we can gank them and watch ourselves ganking them at the same time, for lulz.
That's really a pretty valid (and epic) reason TBFH.
[Edit: Sometimes there's even a webcam involved. Thoe are some special fruitcakes right there.] He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
433
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:19:00 -
[319] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote: So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
Instead of learning how to fit a bit of a tank onto their ship and paying attention while mining (keeping an eye on local, scanning, being aligned to a safe spot
Sigh, another one who never actually mined (yes you are smart for doing not so). You DO realize that at some point I lose contact with the stooped roid and sluggish as that brick in space is, if I'm not blind by pure boredom or just look the other way because i'm distracted having doing NOT A THING for ages I lose whatever is between the roid and my under tanked Hulk, while I try to make a turn to a second safespot?
Mining is one of the worst badly developed and implemented, even under developed things in EVE with CCP looking the other way for over 6 years.
Who needs television when you have EVE? EVE drama, best drama. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:21:00 -
[320] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:There is no such thing as a gank proof ship. There is no point in putting on as much tank as the cost of an insured covetor. The hulk is redundant. GǪexcept that numbers prove you wrong. The Hulk is far more popular than the Covetor because of the advantages it provides, and it is far from redundant. In fact, if anything, it's the Covetor that is redundant due to how poorly it performs for what it requires (which is why they're adjusting it to make it a bit more appealing in Inferno).
Its popularity also demonstrates that it's not really in any greater need of a buff GÇö if it were, it wouldn't be nearly as popular, especially if it's so close to a Covetor as you claim. But again, there's a reason they're adjusting the Covetor, not the Hulk, in the next expansionGǪ
Quote:The drama is you running around calling people idiots and blaming them for 100% of things It's not dramatic to say that your choice is your choice GÇö it's actually the most trivial of truisms. If you choose to make your ship easy to kill, then you choose make your ship easy to kill. The result is easy to see: the ship is now easy to kill; you chose this to happen; it is 100% your fault. This decision is entirely within your control. No matter how much you'd like to shift the blame elsewhere, no-one but you are responsible for the choices you make.
No-one is claiming that it can be made gank-proof. We're claiming that if you make it easier to gank than it needs to be, then that's entirely of your own choosing, and you bad decision is not an adequate reason to change the ship. It is and adequate reason for you to reconsider your decision and make a less bad one the next timeGǪ Your failure is not a game design problem.
Jojo Jackson wrote:There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP Have you thought about learning how to PvP? It's not all that hardGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:22:00 -
[321] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Fractal Muse wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote: So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
Instead of learning how to fit a bit of a tank onto their ship and paying attention while mining (keeping an eye on local, scanning, being aligned to a safe spot Sigh, another one who never actually mined (yes you are smart for doing not so). You DO realize that at some point I lose contact with the stooped roid and sluggish as that brick in space is, if I'm not blind by pure boredom or just look the other way because i'm distracted having doing NOT A THING for ages I lose whatever is between the roid and my under tanked Hulk, while I try to make a turn to a second safespot? Mining is one of the worst badly developed and implemented, even under developed things in EVE with CCP looking the other way for over 6 years.
see the part where I said "CCP doesnt want to to mine"
theyre "looking the other way" for a reason
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:23:00 -
[322] - Quote
Tippia wrote:DamnationArmored Warfare Link - Damage Control II Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair II Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II 4+ù Command Processor I 6+ù Co-Processor II 2+ù Medium Trimark Armor Pump I GǪoh dear. At just under 50k EHP, It can also be ganked by a small gang of destroyers. It's obvious that the Damnation needs to have its tanking abilities drastically buffed because it's such a weak ship. If you abuse a ship out of it's intened use ... YOU fail. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
309
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:23:00 -
[323] - Quote
No you see Tippia he was implying the only reason to pick hulks/industrials as targets is that we are bad at PVP.
I assure you - I am no such thing. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:25:00 -
[324] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:If you abuse a ship out of it's intened use ... YOU fail. Congratulations GÇö you just saw our entire point. Don't abuse a ship by focusing on just one aspect and neglecting the rest, and suddenly, it will perform much better than you thought it did in areas you didn't think of at firstGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:26:00 -
[325] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP Have you thought about learning how to PvP? It's not all that hardGǪ Why should I if I don't like it?
And who tells you I wouldn't know how to?
But I must be blind and stupid to not see the gimpnes of Mining and Industrial ships. Even my hamster might have enough brain to see it. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
310
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:28:00 -
[326] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP Have you thought about learning how to PvP? It's not all that hardGǪ Why should I if I don't like it? And who tells you I wouldn't know how to? But I must be blind and stupid to not see the gimpnes of Mining and Industrial ships. Even my hamster might have enough brain to see it. By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.
Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:28:00 -
[327] - Quote
maybe its they dont want you to mine but they have to allow it cause its a sandbox an all
Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP Have you thought about learning how to PvP? It's not all that hardGǪ Why should I if I don't like it? And who tells you I wouldn't know how to? But I must be blind and stupid to not see the gimpnes of Mining and Industrial ships. Even my hamster might have enough brain to see it.
But its a PVP sandbox...
(sarcasm) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:29:00 -
[328] - Quote
@ Tip The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves something as well. Of course this is easier to ignore right?
You can cease with the personl pronouns about how and what I fit, the hulk I do have is rather old, and until very recently wasn't worth undocking at all, and frankly still isn't.
And there are better ways to make a ship gank proof than fitting a tank, but I'll let you ponder that one, see if it'll drag you out of your black and white box of safe arguments. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
310
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:32:00 -
[329] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:@ Tip The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves something as well. Of course this is easier to ignore right?
You can cease with the personl pronouns about how and what I fit, the hulk I do have is rather old, and until very recently wasn't worth undocking at all, and frankly still isn't.
And there are better ways to make a ship gank proof than fitting a tank, but I'll let you ponder that one, see if it'll drag you out of your black and white box of safe arguments. ZOMFGCLOAKYNULLIFIEDDOUBLEINSURANCEPAYOUTCONCORPROOFPREGANKANTIGANKDOREBOATS?
Sperg on. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
387
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:35:00 -
[330] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:There is just one reason you pick Hulks+Industrials : YOU are to bad for real PvP Have you thought about learning how to PvP? It's not all that hardGǪ Why should I if I don't like it? And who tells you I wouldn't know how to? But I must be blind and stupid to not see the gimpnes of Mining and Industrial ships. Even my hamster might have enough brain to see it. By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities. Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it.
I think theres more a hamster like intelligence to try an say you shouldnt HAVE to PVP in THIS game -.-
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:36:00 -
[331] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:@ Tip The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves something as well. Of course this is easier to ignore right? that miners are scum and deserve to be slaughtered |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:38:00 -
[332] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:If you abuse a ship out of it's intened use ... YOU fail. Congratulations GÇö you just saw our entire point. Don't abuse a ship by focusing on just one aspect and neglecting the rest, and suddenly, it will perform much better than you thought it did in areas you didn't think of at firstGǪ That's not your point.
Your point: Don't buff our prefared eazy mode targets as we would lose more money while we do our anti sozial ganking.
No?
Then enlight us with a true argument why BC size ships don't have the same starting values (slots, cpu, pg, other stats). Mining Barks lose weapon slots for mining equip ... no problem. It is allready a bad trade as normal BC hulls have 7-8 high slots where they use 6-7 for weapons against 3 highs for 3 Stripe Miners. But why do they lose another 4 slots (mid+low)? And why do they lose massive amounts of CPU and PG? And why do they lose massive amounts of base defense? Hulk 7.374 base EHp v Claymore 20.657 base EHP .. BOTH ARE TECH 2 BC hulls and (should) be at the same price tack!
I don't even start with base speed, base agility, base sensor strength, base cap recharge, bas cap and all the other stuff.
Only advantage is a much bigger cargo hold. But it isn't big enough to justify all the other PRE GIMP STATS!
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:39:00 -
[333] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: ZOMFGCLOAKYNULLIFIEDDOUBLEINSURANCEPAYOUTCONCORPROOFPREGANKANTIGANKEDOREBOATS?
Feel free to be intelligible. :)
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:42:00 -
[334] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Why should I if I don't like it? Because then you will no longer have to pick those hulks and industrials.
Quote:And who tells you I wouldn't know how to? Fair enough. It just comes as a conclusion from you apparently wanting to pick hulks and industrials, and your claim that you pick those because you're GÇ£too bad for real PvPGÇ¥.
Adunh Slavy wrote:@ Tip The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves something as well. Yes: that people don't know how to tank their ships, because once you start asking them about what's behind the complaints, that's always what comes out in the end. They want their ships to be more sturdy because they refuse to make them more sturdy themselves. They refuse to accept responsibility for their own decisions.
I don't see why their lack of intelligence, character, and forethought should in any way be rewarded. They can learn by their mistakes like everyone else, and if they don't, it's only right that they suffer the consequences of their poor decisions.
Quote:And there are better ways to make a ship gank proof than fitting a tank, but I'll let you ponder that one, see if it'll drag you out of your black and white box of safe arguments. So you're back to that straw man, eh? You're the one banging on about being GÇ£gank proofGÇ¥, not me. I know how to make my hulk gank proof, and it has nothing to do with how I fit it. However, just like with the suggestion to actually fit a tank, people refuse to adopt those kinds of strategies as well becauseGǪ wellGǪ just because, usually. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:46:00 -
[335] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.
Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it. Then tell me why [Rokh, New Setup 2] 4*Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor II
8*Miner II
3*Large Cargohold Optimization I
Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
is such a great mining ship. (1371 yield/min without gank bonis and implants)
[Hulk, New Setup 2] 2*Mining Laser Upgrade II
3*Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Mining Drone II x5
= 1749 yield/min without bonis and implants
Rohk = 38371 EHP without any modul Hulk = 9217 EHP without any modul ~400 yield/min for ~29k EHP? bad trade! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:47:00 -
[336] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.
Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it. Then tell me why [Rokh, New Setup 2] 4*Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor II 8*Miner II 3*Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 is such a great mining ship. (1371 yield/min without gank bonis and implants) joho jackson i wish to inform you that all of your opinions on fitting ships can easily be ignored considering your sig complains you cannot put capital reps on a ship that structure tanks |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
143
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:48:00 -
[337] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.
Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it. Then tell me why [Rokh, New Setup 2] 4*Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor II 8*Miner II 3*Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 is such a great mining ship. (1371 yield/min without gank bonis and implants)
I approve this message. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:49:00 -
[338] - Quote
Miners After Hulkagedon
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
310
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:49:00 -
[339] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.
Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it. Then tell me why [Rokh, New Setup 2] 4*Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor II 8*Miner II 3*Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 is such a great mining ship. (1371 yield/min without gank bonis and implants) I used to get 799/min or some **** out of my Vexor, so what?
It's not "good" by Hulk pilots' standards and it can't mine ice. So what? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:49:00 -
[340] - Quote
All this is moot. After this summers war expansion. they said they will be looking specifically at the Harvesting mechanics of the game as they have concentrated on destruction for a long time. Then after Harvesting, the Crafting/industrial side. It was the circle of life in the EVE keynote. |
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:51:00 -
[341] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.
Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it. Then tell me why [Rokh, New Setup 2] 4*Mining Laser Upgrade II Co-Processor II 8*Miner II 3*Large Cargohold Optimization I Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 is such a great mining ship. (1371 yield/min without gank bonis and implants) joho jackson i wish to inform you that all of your opinions on fitting ships can easily be ignored considering your sig complains you cannot put capital reps on a ship that structure tanks You might be not vet enough to know that BS-mining was the high end pre-Hulk ;). And even after Hulks it was fairly common to see such mining BS in belts. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
589
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:51:00 -
[342] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Yes: that people don't know how to tank their ships, because once you start asking them about what's behind the complaints, that's always what comes out in the end. They want their ships to be more sturdy because they refuse to make them more sturdy themselves. They refuse to accept responsibility for their own decisions.
I don't see why their lack of intelligence, character, and forethought should in any way be rewarded. They can learn by their mistakes like everyone else, and if they don't, it's only right that they suffer the consequences of their poor decisions.
That must be a very comfortable little box. Maybe open the top and look outside from time to time.
Tippia wrote: So you're back to that straw man, eh? You're the one banging on about being Gǣgank proofGǥ, not me. I know how to make my hulk gank proof, and it has nothing to do with how I fit it. However, just like with the suggestion to actually fit a tank, people refuse to adopt those kinds of strategies as well becauseGǪ wellGǪ just because, usually.
LOL, the straw is yours and it looks just like you. I have not be "banging on" as you claim about 'gank proof' in your narrow little definition of fitting a tank. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:53:00 -
[343] - Quote
I would ignore Tippa, he is one of those people who does not understand that "my opinion" is not the same as "the only opinion" or "the truth" . It is in fact just another random person's opinion.
For more random opinions, see Tippa's rants linked in his/her signature.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:57:00 -
[344] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:That's not your point.
Your point: Don't buff our prefared eazy mode targets as we would lose more money while we do our anti sozial ganking.
No? No. My point is: there is no reason to buff the Hulk just because people make bad decisions in how they choose to fit them. The solution to that GÇ£problemGÇ¥ is for people to stop making those bad decisions.
Quote:Then enlight us with a true argument why BC size ships don't have the same starting values (slots, cpu, pg, other stats). Most of them do, you know, so why would I argue against facts? You're also over-interpreting the meaning of slots and the meaning of size. Sure, a battlecruiser may have 7-8 highs for 6-7 weaponsGǪ because it needs 6-7 weapons to get its full gank on. A Hulk only needs 3 highs to get its full yield. If it's the number of slots that's bothering you then sure, double the number of highs on all barges and exhumers and cut the yield and fitting reqs of all strip miners in half. Problem solved.
Why don't all BC size ships have the same starting values? Because they are completely different ships.
Quote:But why do they lose another 4 slots (mid+low)? And why do they lose massive amounts of CPU and PG? And why do they lose massive amounts of base defense? Hulk 7.374 base EHp v Claymore 20.657 base EHP .. BOTH ARE TECH 2 BC hulls and (should) be at the same price tack! Because they don't need any more to fulfil their role. Same goes for the base hitpoints. A Hulk doesn't have the stats of a T2 battlecruiser because a Hulk isn't a T2 battlecruiser GÇö it's a T2 mining barge. It's a completely different class of ship. They have nothing to do with each other. Nothing that applies to one is of any relevance to the other. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:57:00 -
[345] - Quote
I REALY want to make my Hulk tanky ... it's just not posible :(
TECH II BATTLE CRUISER HULL
[Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Mining Drone II x5
MISSING ~280 PG and ~35 CPU
And don't try to troll me this fit is fail as it's the most compareble to any PvP fitting for standart Tech 2 BC hulls EXCEPT 4 MISSING SLOTS!
PS: now only ~150 yield/min as the Rohk and still not the same EHP as a Rohk WITHOUT defens mods Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Selinate
852
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:59:00 -
[346] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:I would ignore Tippa, he is one of those people who does not understand that "my opinion" is not the same as "the only opinion" or "the truth" . It is in fact just another random person's opinion. For more random opinions, see Tippa's rants
Still butthurt over the forum beating you got from Tippia, I see.
Go back to your corner. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:59:00 -
[347] - Quote
holy lawl that's a horrid fitting |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:59:00 -
[348] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:That must be a very comfortable little box. Maybe open the top and look outside from time to time. I accept your surrender.
Quote:LOL, the straw is yours and it looks just like you. I have not be "banging on" as you claim about 'gank proof' in your narrow little definition of fitting a tank. GǪexcept that I never made any claim about how gtanks would make you gank proof GÇö that's something you've dreamed up because you ran out of arguments and needed to invent something I never said so you could attack it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:59:00 -
[349] - Quote
what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
129
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:00:00 -
[350] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:holy lawl that's a horrid fitting clearly a Troll
EvilweaselFinance wrote:what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk
Dude read the text: "closest to common PvP ship fitting for standart tech 2 BC".
Do you ever saw a not-fail fit for Claymore, Sleibnir, Nighthawk WITHOUT MWD ????????????? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
311
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:01:00 -
[351] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk It's just random modules and his claims of really trying hard, obviously? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:01:00 -
[352] - Quote
but seriously what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:01:00 -
[353] - Quote
i should not be suprised considering you've never figured out an orca structure tanked but god almighty man |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
590
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:04:00 -
[354] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:That must be a very comfortable little box. Maybe open the top and look outside from time to time. I accept your surrender.
I'm sure your ego will find whatever justification it needs.
Quote:LOL, the straw is yours and it looks just like you. I have not be "banging on" as you claim about 'gank proof' in your narrow little definition of fitting a tank. GǪexcept that I never made any claim about how gtanks would make you gank proof GÇö that's something you've dreamed up because you ran out of arguments and needed to invent something I never said so you could attack it. [/quote]
Nor did I, keep screaming at that mirror, maybe one day you will convert even your self. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6009
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:04:00 -
[355] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:but seriously what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk GǪit would solve their complaints about align time, if nothing else. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
130
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:05:00 -
[356] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk It's just random modules and his claims of really trying hard, obviously? CFC forum troll 1
EvilweaselFinance wrote:but seriously what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk CFC forum troll 2
Your posts in here are : we want Hulkgeddon
I don't expect any real discussions with you 2. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
143
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:06:00 -
[357] - Quote
Tippia wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:but seriously what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk GǪit would solve their complaints about align time, if nothing else.
Very nice. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:06:00 -
[358] - Quote
i would be happy to discuss with you what the **** you are doing putting a mwd on a hulk please give me some insight here |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
590
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:07:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote: I don't expect any real discussions with you 2.
Just block him, "hide posts", he's useless. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
311
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:07:00 -
[360] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk It's just random modules and his claims of really trying hard, obviously? CFC forum troll 1 EvilweaselFinance wrote:but seriously what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk CFC forum troll 2 Your posts in here are : we want Hulkgeddon I don't expect any real discussions with you 2. By this logic you are hi-sec alt #5014 and your argument is pretty much "I want a pegacorn!"
That about covers it, right? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:07:00 -
[361] - Quote
BETTER GET THAT MWD SO WE CAN GET OUT OF BUBBLES WHILE MINING IN HIGHSEC |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:08:00 -
[362] - Quote
ALIGN TO PLANET 4, VELDSPAR IS PRIMARY, WHERE ARE MY DICTORS PEOPLE |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
130
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:11:00 -
[363] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:i would be happy to discuss with you what the **** you are doing putting a mwd on a hulk please give me some insight here
Jojo Jackson wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk Dude read the text: "closest to common PvP ship fitting for standart tech 2 BC". Do you ever saw a not-fail fit for Claymore, Sleibnir, Nighthawk WITHOUT MWD ?????????????
If you are unable to scroll up and find the reason.
But for god will remove the MWD and use a LSB [Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Mining Drone II x5
still the same damn CPU+PG+CAP+CAP RECHARGE problems.
TECH II BATTLECRUISER compared to command ships !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
590
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:12:00 -
[364] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No ego needed GÇö just noticing that you didn't provide any kind of counter-argument, just like with your new post. So surrender still accepted.
LOL, just because you ignore the arguments you do not like, doesn't mean they cease to exist. Put your head back in the sand.
Quote:You were the one who brought it up for the sole purpose of taking it down. It's a classic straw man fallacy. Sorry, there's no two ways about it. vOv.
I didn't create the thread, neither did you. Reality sucks, doesn't it. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
311
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:15:00 -
[365] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:i would be happy to discuss with you what the **** you are doing putting a mwd on a hulk please give me some insight here Jojo Jackson wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:what the **** are you doing putting a mwd on a hulk Dude read the text: "closest to common PvP ship fitting for standart tech 2 BC". Do you ever saw a not-fail fit for Claymore, Sleibnir, Nighthawk WITHOUT MWD ????????????? If you are unable to scroll up and find the reason. But for god will remove the MWD and use a LSB [Hulk, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Purger I Mining Drone II x5 still the same damn CPU+PG+CAP+CAP RECHARGE problems. TECH II BATTLECRUISER compared to command ships !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ate my text batman.
Anyway you don't active tank and passive tank at the same time.
Ditch the large booster, before you look like a...
...too late!!! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Prince Kobol
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:15:00 -
[366] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:@ Tip The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves something as well. Of course this is easier to ignore right?
You can cease with the personl pronouns about how and what I fit, the hulk I do have is rather old, and until very recently wasn't worth undocking at all, and frankly still isn't.
And there are better ways to make a ship gank proof than fitting a tank, but I'll let you ponder that one, see if it'll drag you out of your black and white box of safe arguments.
The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves how many lazy ass miners there are who expect their hulk to survive whilst they are afk.
You keep saying that a hulk is not worth the isk and that they are easy to gank, then why have I not lost 1 hulk, over 4 accounts in over 2 years of playing Eve and I'm as high sec carebear as one can get.
Jesus for the last 3 weeks I have been grinding mining missions ffs.
I keep saying it over and over again, if you fit your hulk with a nice balance between yield and tank, don't go afk, do your intel, talk to your fellow miners in the same system and look out for each other, the chances of you getting gank are very slim.
If you decided to fit a **** poor tank, do intel on the system you are mining in, ignore everybody in local and go afk then your chances of losing your ships is greatly increased and rightly so. |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:15:00 -
[367] - Quote
A lot of good points here for why the Hulk should get improved. I, too, can fly one but I never bothered with buying just a single one when I can fly a much cheaper Covetor with a tank just as useless, but nearly the same mining yield as a Hulk. Everything about the Hulk speaks against the rule that says only to fly a ship one can afford to lose. These ORE ships were designed without ganking and Hulkageddon in mind. Ganking of Hulks is merely the proof of the imbalance, just like masses of Falcons were proof of it and the masses of Drakes are, too. The Hulk is currently not a ship worth 300m ISKs.
For comparison, a Noctis which is not a warship either and gets to see less pirates than a mining ship and has got a power grid of 250 PG and can fit an LSE next to a 10MN MWD. The Hulk has got 35 PG... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:18:00 -
[368] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:LOL, just because you ignore the arguments you do not like, doesn't mean they cease to exist. What arguments? Let's seeGǪ
I wrote: GÇ£Yes: that people don't know how to tank their ships, because once you start asking them about what's behind the complaints, that's always what comes out in the end. They want their ships to be more sturdy because they refuse to make them more sturdy themselves. They refuse to accept responsibility for their own decisions.
I don't see why their lack of intelligence, character, and forethought should in any way be rewarded. They can learn by their mistakes like everyone else, and if they don't, it's only right that they suffer the consequences of their poor decisions.GÇ¥
GǪto which you answered: GǣThat must be a very comfortable little box. Maybe open the top and look outside from time to time.Gǥ
Nope. No argument. Just some desperate chest-beating and what was probably intended as an ad hominem fallacy.
Quote:I didn't create the thread, neither did you. Reality sucks, doesn't it. Yet another straw man. I didn't say you did; I said you brought up the idea of GÇ£gank proofGÇ¥ fits GÇö not me GÇö and you did it solely to point out that they didn't exist, implying that I should stop suggesting them (which I never didGǪ). So your fallacy count is rapidly increasing here.
Whitehound wrote:A lot of good points here for why the Hulk should get improved. I, too, can fly one but I never bothered with buying just a single one when I can fly a much cheaper Covetor with a tank just as useless, but nearly the same mining yield as a Hulk. GǪexcept that numbers shows this not to be true, since the Covetor is a deeply unpopular ship (so unpopular, in fact, that they're going to adjust it to improve its standing) whereas the Hulk is one of the most popular ships in the game.
Quote:These ORE ships were designed without ganking and Hulkageddon in mind. True. They were designed for far more adverse conditions, and then people cripple them with their bad decisions so they can't even survive very safe environments. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:21:00 -
[369] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Nobody fits a booster and an extender.
HAHAHAHA
To obviously trolling Get brain to get the sense behind this fit.
LSE => from 1994 to 5439 shild == anti sozials like you need more then just a 15m T2 fit Trasher to gank (FU YOU) LSB => normal NPC tanking
And I would fit even more EHP into the MISSING 4 slots just to make YOU use more expensive ships!
PS: [Claymore, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
Large Shield Booster II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
8*[empty high slot]
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hulk = 20k EHP, Claymore = 120k EHP ... WTF FAIL BALANCE !!!!!!!!! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
590
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:22:00 -
[370] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote: The amount of complaints about its lack of survivability proves how many lazy ass miners there are who expect their hulk to survive whilst they are afk.
IMO that's more a problem with mining. If it were not so boring, there'd be a lot less AFK.
Prince Kobol wrote: You keep saying that a hulk is not worth the isk and that they are easy to gank, then why have I not lost 1 hulk, over 4 accounts in over 2 years of playing Eve and I'm as high sec carebear as one can get.
I still have the first hulk I bought six years ago, it has been in high sec, low sec and worm holes.
Prince Kobol wrote: I keep saying it over and over again, if you fit your hulk with a nice balance between yield and tank, don't go afk, do your intel, talk to your fellow miners in the same system and look out for each other, the chances of you getting gank are very slim.
And that is more important than this mindless tank/gank conversation that narrow minded people like to focus upon. |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
311
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:23:00 -
[371] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Nobody fits a booster and an extender.
HAHAHAHA To obviously trolling Get brain to get the sense behind this fit. LSE => from 1994 to 5439 shild == anti sozials like you need more then just a 15m T2 fit Trasher to gank (FU YOU) LSB => normal NPC tanking And I would fit even more EHP into the MISSING 4 slots just to make YOU use more expensive ships! Try an invul instead of the booster for NPC tanking.
You can buffer tank the NPC rats anywhere in high-sec and it ******* compliments your shield extender.
Oh look a ******* ton of grid just opened up! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
388
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:24:00 -
[372] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: On the left, fully insurable, zero cost disposable ship. Won't even care to tank it, it's free and disposable anyway.
On the right, more training intensive, 10x times more expensive ship, tanked enough to withstand the average ganker. It'll still die, expecially come
insert here any of Hulkageddon, ice interdiction, Bat Country, racketing
for near of the above ship yield.
Anyone see something wrong? No, eh?
You are stupid to try and mine in hulkageddon/BAT interdiction area? The hardest mining ship in empire to gank is the veldought and even that docks up in hulkageddon.
Most ppl I know dont and dont get ganked lol https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:25:00 -
[373] - Quote
you do not get the point ... or you just want to troll ... or you do not get the point and becouse of this you troll
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:28:00 -
[374] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Fractal Muse wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote: So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
Instead of learning how to fit a bit of a tank onto their ship and paying attention while mining (keeping an eye on local, scanning, being aligned to a safe spot Sigh, another one who never actually mined (yes you are smart for doing not so). You DO realize that at some point I lose contact with the stooped roid and sluggish as that brick in space is, if I'm not blind by pure boredom or just look the other way because i'm distracted having doing NOT A THING for ages I lose whatever is between the roid and my under tanked Hulk, while I try to make a turn to a second safespot? Mining is one of the worst badly developed and implemented, even under developed things in EVE with CCP looking the other way for over 6 years.
Did you ever notice that the better mining equipment has better range?
Do you realize that the reason for this is more than simply making it easier to stay in a group to make your haulers life easier?
Pick two celestials roughly opposite each other, then at 3/4 speed approach first one to the limits of your equipments range, then reverse course and head for the other.
Have your Orca tractor the cans in (it too has excellent range for a reason, or have your haulers jump directly to you for can pick up.
If you simply can't stay focused on what you are doing, take turns with other people in your group to keep an eye on local and D scan.
Seriously, do you think your average gate camp is easier to stay focused on when things are slow? Keeping yourself safe is as easy or as hard as you wish to make it. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:29:00 -
[375] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Nope. No argument. Just some desperate chest-beating and what was probably intended as an ad hominem fallacy.
ROFL, says the Eve forums drama queen. Why not go generalize and call some more people idiots. Oh no, then your hypocritical BS might be exposed for what it is. can't have that.
Quote:Yet another straw man. I didn't say you did; I said you brought up the idea of GÇ£gank proofGÇ¥ fits GÇö not me GÇö and you did it solely to point out that they didn't exist, implying that I should stop suggesting them (which I never didGǪ). So your fallacy count is rapidly increasing here.
Haha. Everyone that reads your posts know how easily and conveniently you shift between literal meanings and the spirit of a conversation to suit you. You keep up with your playground rules, and I'll keep winding you up like a cheap watch. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:31:00 -
[376] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:you do not get the point ... or you just want to troll ... or you do not get the point and becouse of this you trol You're right, clearly you should build up a huge buffer and then slap a mod on there that doesn't conform to the doctrine
I mean everybody who's anybody does that
Why would you ignore such good advice as this? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
539
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:32:00 -
[377] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:I would ignore Tippa, he is one of those people who does not understand that "my opinion" is not the same as "the only opinion" or "the truth" . It is in fact just another random person's opinion. For more random opinions, see Tippa's rants
No you don't ingnore Tippia. She's so incredibly predictable and totally blindfolded in her opinions you can bait her to post whatever and bump threads forever. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:36:00 -
[378] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:you do not get the point ... or you just want to troll ... or you do not get the point and becouse of this you trol You're right, clearly you should build up a huge buffer and then slap a mod on there that doesn't conform to the doctrine I mean everybody who's anybody does that Why would you ignore such good advice as this? Dude, it doesn't matter if I passive+active tank it.
Facts: Hulk == Tech II Battlecruiser hull like Command Ships Hulk is unable to even fit nearly the same defense a Command Ship can fit
Missing slot Missing CPU Missing PG Missing ALL
It's ******* equal if I fit 4 LSE or 4 LSB or whatever ... there is NO WAY to fit any compareble module as YOU would fit in a Command Ship!
Hulk rule is to miner .. that's why it has no weapon high slots but mining high slots.
And now ... tell me why there are all the other pre gimp stats! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
389
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:38:00 -
[379] - Quote
an you can AFK mission why is it such a horrifying EVE sin that you can AFK mine? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:38:00 -
[380] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:ROFL, says the Eve forums drama queen. Nope. Says your argument-less little quip, as quoted.
Quote:Why not go generalize and call some more people idiots. Why would I do that? I just call people idiots when they complain that their own decision to weaken their ship weakened their ships. It's not really a generalisation GÇö it's an inference made from the fact that they're complaining about their own decisions and wishing others to GÇ£fixGÇ£ those errors.
Quote:Haha. Everyone that reads your posts know how easily and conveniently you shift between literal meanings and the spirit of a conversation to suit you. You keep up with your playground rules, and I'll keep winding you up like a cheap watch. GǪand yet, you were the one who created the GÇ£gank-proofGÇ¥ straw man when GÇö presumably GÇö you couldn't come up with any reasonable answer to why tanking your ship would help.
So, let's just get to the point that you don't want to get to: why on earth should Hulks be buffed?
Jojo Jackson wrote:Facts:
Hulk == Tech II Battlecruiser hull like Command Ships Hulk is unable to even fit nearly the same defense a Command Ship can fit Yes? So? Why should the Hulk be able to do that, when it's not a T2 BC? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:40:00 -
[381] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:A lot of good points here for why the Hulk should get improved. I, too, can fly one but I never bothered with buying just a single one when I can fly a much cheaper Covetor with a tank just as useless, but nearly the same mining yield as a Hulk. Everything about the Hulk speaks against the rule that says only to fly a ship one can afford to lose. These ORE ships were designed without ganking and Hulkageddon in mind. Ganking of Hulks is merely the proof of the imbalance, just like masses of Falcons were proof of it and the masses of Drakes are, too. The Hulk is currently not a ship worth 300m ISKs.
For comparison, a Noctis which is not a warship either and gets to see less pirates than a mining ship and has got a power grid of 250 PG and can fit an LSE next to a 10MN MWD. The Hulk has got 35 PG...
Yep. The advantages a Hulk has over a Covetor or too minor to be justified by the 500% premium. Total wastes of ISK until they give it a little something extra to justify the expense. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:43:00 -
[382] - Quote
Sycho Pathic wrote:Yep. The advantages a Hulk has over a Covetor or too minor to be justified by the 500% premium. Total wastes of ISK until they give it a little something extra to justify the expense. Assuming for a second that you're not just trollingGǪ
GǪit would be a lot easier to buy into that reasoning if it weren't for the fact that the Hulk is so immensely more popular than the Covetor, and that the numbers do not support the claim that the advantage the former has is very minor. If the advantage really was that small, wouldn't the Covetor be the far more popular of the two, and wouldn't it be the Hulk that got a much-needed usability boost in Inferno rather than the other way around? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:46:00 -
[383] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that numbers shows this not to be true, since the Covetor is a deeply unpopular ship (so unpopular, in fact, that they're going to adjust it to improve its standing) whereas the Hulk is one of the most popular ships in the game. ... True. They were designed for far more adverse conditions, and then people cripple them with their bad decisions so they can't even survive very safe environments. I think people are simply smarter than this. They do not care if their Hulk gets ganked or if CCP gives them a better tank. I, and this is just me and not everyone, do not have fun with buying a Hulk. I then post here and voice my opinion. Most players do not do this either. Does this make us automatically wrong? No.
I do not understand your second point. Ganking does not make an environment safe or very safe. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:47:00 -
[384] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:I would ignore Tippa, he is one of those people who does not understand that "my opinion" is not the same as "the only opinion" or "the truth" . It is in fact just another random person's opinion. For more random opinions, see Tippa's rants No you don't ingnore Tippia. She's so incredibly predictable and totally blindfolded in her opinions you can bait her to post whatever and bump threads forever.
And he does not take losing an argument very well, as I can attest
|
J Kunjeh
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:48:00 -
[385] - Quote
This might have already been said, but I thought I'd leave this here (sorry, haven't caught up on the last 8 pages):
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/fit-of-week-bait-hulk.html "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:49:00 -
[386] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that numbers shows this not to be true, since the Covetor is a deeply unpopular ship (so unpopular, in fact, that they're going to adjust it to improve its standing) whereas the Hulk is one of the most popular ships in the game. ... True. They were designed for far more adverse conditions, and then people cripple them with their bad decisions so they can't even survive very safe environments. I think people are simply smarter than this. They do not care if their Hulk gets ganked or if CCP gives them a better tank. I, and this is just me and not everyone, do not have fun with buying a Hulk. I then post here and voice my opinion. Must players do not do this either. Does this make us automatically wrong? No. I do not understand your second point. Ganking does not make an environment safe or very safe. High-sec is the safest space in Eve, though. That ganks occur there is irrelevant. Many more ships die to random PVP elsewhere than in high-sec. A properly fitted and flown Hulk should be able to survive most, if not all, gank attempts in high-sec.
Yet due to bellyaching high-sec gets seemingly safer every "expansion". He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:55:00 -
[387] - Quote
Sounds cool but isn't.
This blog is about "special operation bait hulk". As the two CFC trolls before told me "noone would ever fly this fit except for lulz".
The flamed me for LSE+LSB ... I'll now do the same "WTF who fits Cap Booster and Bulkheads on a Hulk?".
If you expect every miner to fly this fit, you fail. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:56:00 -
[388] - Quote
I would imagine that a raw EHP build will surpass any attempt to active tank in a gank situation.
|
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:56:00 -
[389] - Quote
I finally figured it out:
100k EHP Mining Hulk
[Abaddon, Hulk] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Survey Scanner II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II Miner II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump II Large Trimark Armor Pump II Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Warrior II x5 Mining Drone II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5
Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[390] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I think people are simply smarter than this. They do not care if their Hulk gets ganked or if CCP gives them a better tank. I, and this is just me and not everyone, do not have fun with buying a Hulk. I then post here and voice my opinion. Must players do not do this either. Does this make us automatically wrong? No. Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. The Hulk has pretty consistently been in the top spots for most used ships in the game. The Covetor is commonly one of the least used ships. If there was no reason to pick the Hulk, that relationship would be reversed.
Instead, they're now going to adjust the Covetor for pretty much the exact reason some people say they should adjust the Hulk: because it's not a useful choice. The Covetor's relative uselessness shows up pretty clearly in the numbers, and as a result, they're trying to reduce the investment required to get that lower level of effectiveness.
If it is indeed true that the difference between the Covetor and the Hulk is that small, then no, people are not smarter than this GÇö they are in fact very very dumb, as shown by the immense popularity of the Hulk. Alternatively, people are indeed smart, in which case the difference between the Covetor and the Hulk are more than sufficient to generate this vast chasm in popularity between the two (again: to the point where CCP is going to adjust the Covetor so it becomes more worth-while).
Quote:I do not understand your second point. Ganking does not make an environment safe or very safe. My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[391] - Quote
Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius.
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[392] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: High-sec is the safest space in Eve
No. Totaly wrong.
00 is much MUCH safer as soon as you check local + intel channels. With NBSI it's close to imposible to die if you don't want to die.
In high sec it doesn't matter where you are as some random neutral 14 day alt in his trasher can be your posible death as there is no way to control it. Only way to avoid it would be to never undock.
Does CCP realy expect player to pay 18 bugs/month for not undocking?
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[393] - Quote
A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks
Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win
A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.
|
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:01:00 -
[394] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Yet due to bellyaching high-sec gets seemingly safer every "expansion". Does it? The Tornado and the Boomrang manoeuvre were certainly proof of the opposite and it forced CCP to do something or to give up high-sec. Even with the recent safety change is the Tornado the new number one gank ship. |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:02:00 -
[395] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: A properly fitted and flown Hulk should be able to survive most, if not all, gank attempts in high-sec.
And for the cost of that one properly fitted Hulk, you can go through 6+ Covetors that are next to worthless to a hi-sec ganker, salvage-wise.
Less reward for their risk, as it were :)
I've only lost two. Both times involved restrooms. I'm a lot like Vincent Vega from Pulp Fiction in that respect. The replacement costs on those ships was far less than the initial purchase of that single Hulk.
|
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:02:00 -
[396] - Quote
Fish Hunter wrote:A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks
Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win
A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.
Then maybe he should have marked them as red, bookmarked them and payed attention when they entered system. Yea?
|
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:06:00 -
[397] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V.
I'll let this one go because seem new to EVE
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:07:00 -
[398] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
Do you realize that the reason for this is more than simply making it easier to stay in a group to make your haulers life easier?
not really on point but why do Marauders have +tractor range? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:08:00 -
[399] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V. So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second?
An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk.
I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Prince Kobol
533
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:08:00 -
[400] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE
Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships? |
|
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:10:00 -
[401] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ... Try not to look at the numbers then. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:11:00 -
[402] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ... Try not to look at the numbers then. /thread TBFH. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:11:00 -
[403] - Quote
it seems to me, all the comparisons are a little skewed.
nay sayers say Tank the hulk. it's the only way. Combat ships lose DPS if they tank their ship. You talk as if the hulk should be in a fleet.The thing you seem to forget. In a fleet. You fit your role. IE DPS. EWAR. War links bla bla bla. In a fleet by that comparison the hulk should be able to fit it's role. By the same comparison, you dont see 1 destroyer going into a fleet of combat ships, and Picking off a cruiser. (Hi sec)
It is imbalanced. Even if you are in a fleet with 1 million combat ships protecting you. You cannot do anything before the ganker attacks. So even Fleeted the Hulk must gimp its use to survive.
Solo Hulks like all things, should find a happy medium between tank and usefulness. But again. There is not really a happy medium for the hulk.
For those that say TANK TANK TANK. You are not getting the whole picture. I have stated where there is imbalance. And it is using your own arguements in using fleets. If a hulk is fleeted it should be able to fit for its role. Would you take a logi into an Incursion if it maxed out its tank? at the expense of its role? would you?
I'll leave you to figure it out. It has a fleet role and no matter how you paint it. It cannot perform that roll to maximum performance if it needs to lose performance.
o7 |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:11:00 -
[404] - Quote
Quote:So, let's just get to the point that you don't want to get to: why on earth should Hulks be buffed?
More of your drama queen horse ****. This was the topic from the start Captain Obvious.
The investment in SP and materials for a hulk is considerable compared to its T1 variant. It's capabilities do not reflect that investment as much as other classes of ships that have T1 and T2 variants. It falls short.
Increasing yields to make up for this short fall, in an environment of over supply, till the 24th anyway as far as we know, isn't a good idea. Nor increasing its hold, time and transportation can't be too easy. This leaves survivability.
Divisions of labor and specialization should be encouraged in Eve, not discouraged by and overcome by a few 3 day old biomass giggle gankbears in cheap destroyers. Increasing survivability and having the ship cost more in terms of materials would further the development and value of specialization.
As pointed out earlier, crimewatch 2 may very well change this entire dynamic anyway and this whole conversation could become far less relevant. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:12:00 -
[405] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships? I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls.
Role mining = no weapon high but mining high
Why the other gimps? Any real reason except "we want eazy targets"? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:12:00 -
[406] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ... Try not to look at the numbers then. Yes. Let's make changes to the game based on complete fabrications rather than the facts.
Also, wohaGǪ did a whole bunch of posts just get nuked? People's quotes are all over the place and the posts they quote no longer exist.
Jojo Jackson wrote:Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. GǪexcept that the Exhumers are not T2 BCs, so you can stop with that nonsense comparison.
They can already fit a proper tank. People just choose not to, and then complain that their untanked ships are weak.
Quote:I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls. No. You're comparing T2 BC hulls with T2 mining barge hulls. Mining barges Gëá BCs. Exhumers Gëá command ships. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Prince Kobol
534
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:15:00 -
[407] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships? I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls. Role mining = no weapon high but mining high Why the other gimps? Any real reason except "we want eazy targets"?
Yet a Hulk is not a Battle Cruiser, its a exhumer or did I miss something |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
576
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:16:00 -
[408] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V. So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second? An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk. I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship.
I'll field this one anyway to prevent others from accidentally believing in your stupidity. I once tried to do the same thing in a Ferox (which did better then a retriever in terms of ore) and then a Rohk. For starters, do to how broken mining is all by itself, you might as well get out and try to make isk by using a shovel instead. It is not going to be worth the time. You then add to that hauling the ore and travel time, and so it gets even worse if you're on your own. Which you will be because mining ops want ore ships.
After the fact, people eventually figure out that your "that guy" who always uses jetcans. You will warp away to your Iteron only to find out that, when you get back, the other guy has move all of the ore you just mined into their can (but they named it yours). So you can no longer get to the ore, and so then you need to get back to more mining. End result, it does not work in reality. Reality. That is an important thing for some of you to consider, because things don't always turn out the way your little brains imagine it to.
Reality.
|
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:17:00 -
[409] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. Let's make changes to the game based on complete fabrications rather than the facts. Also, wohaGǪ did a whole bunch of posts just get nuked? People's quotes are all over the place and the posts they quote no longer exist. Jojo Jackson wrote:Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. GǪexcept that the Exhumers are not T2 BCs, so you can stop with that nonsense comparison. They can already fit a proper tank. People just choose not to, and then complain that their untanked ships are weak. Quote:I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls. No. You're comparing T2 BC hulls with T2 mining barge hulls. Mining barges Gëá BCs. Exhumers Gëá command ships. Looks like you lost one or two. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:18:00 -
[410] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The investment in SP and materials for a hulk is considerable compared to its T1 variant. It's capabilities do not reflect that investment as much as other classes of ships that have T1 and T2 variants. It falls short. GǪexcept that the numbers show that the exhumers are not out of line with what other T2 upgrades provide; that the popularity of the ships show that the capabilities are more than enough for the T2 variant to completely overshadow the T1 version; and that the SP investment to get to exhumers is quite small compared to other hull types.
In other words: what shortfall? Almost everything offered so far shows the exact opposite: that the Hulk is an unusually good upgrade over the Covetor.
Quote:Divisions of labor and specialization should be encouraged in Eve, not discouraged by and overcome by a few 3 day old biomass giggle gankbears in cheap destroyers. Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:18:00 -
[411] - Quote
Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:Copy paste, don't click it. GǪand the site only gave me proxy errors. Quote:And i am picking the best spot for both things I compare so its good statistics data. No, it's awful statistics data because you're picking and choosing between prices that are affected by different factors, and this makes them very bad for comparisons. If you want to compare prices, make sure all of them are subject to the same influences. Quote:You cant compare things, of lets say ores in RL, from one market, one ore is mined 1km from that market and other 20.000km. GǪand that's exactly what you're doing if you're picking the lowest price GÇö you're not actually looking at what stuff is worth on a common market. Jita is that common market, because even if prices are inflated, they are universally inflated and that's what matters.
So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. That Ain't Right |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:19:00 -
[412] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Fish Hunter wrote:A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks
Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win
A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.
Then maybe he should have marked them as red, bookmarked them and payed attention when they entered system. Yea?
... but thats obviously a failing of the ship, not the player making unwise choices or failing to use the proper tools (such as his brain). When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:20:00 -
[413] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Aranakas wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V. So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second? An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk. I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship. I'll field this one anyway to prevent others from accidentally believing in your stupidity. I once tried to do the same thing in a Ferox (which did better then a retriever in terms of ore) and then a Rohk. For starters, do to how broken mining is all by itself, you might as well get out and try to make isk by using a shovel instead. It is not going to be worth the time. You then add to that hauling the ore and travel time, and so it gets even worse if you're on your own. Which you will be because mining ops want ore ships. After the fact, people eventually figure out that your "that guy" who always uses jetcans. You will warp away to your Iteron only to find out that, when you get back, the other guy has move all of the ore you just mined into their can (but they named it yours). So you can no longer get to the ore, and so then you need to get back to more mining. End result, it does not work in reality. Reality. That is an important thing for some of you to consider, because things don't always turn out the way your little brains imagine it to. Reality.
Fit your Iteron V like this lol
[Iteron Mark V, Battle Iteron V] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Small Armor Repairer II Small Armor Repairer II
Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200 Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:22:00 -
[414] - Quote
bornaa wrote:[So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. No. Common market for me is the most commonly used point of comparison, since it's one of the driving forces of the economy overall, where trading itself GÇö not proximity GÇö determines where prices are going (and where prices in the rest of the universe will go).
Jita is a place where you can find anything and everything under one roof; where everything is subject to the same influence; and where the volume is large enough to make sure trends quickly propagate through all kinds of goods. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:22:00 -
[415] - Quote
Can we get this thread moved to Ships & Modules, please?
It's interfering with our General Discussion. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:23:00 -
[416] - Quote
Forgot to mention: Crimewatch in the expansion will fix can-flipping. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
576
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:25:00 -
[417] - Quote
The Actual Problem
...seems to be two fold.
1, miners do not understand the principle of "tank" because mining is a profession that does not connect to PVP skill in any way shape or form. Alternatively, someone should have figured out how to tank the hulks by now, and it should be common knowledge. People figured out optimal incursion fits fast enough now didn't they?
2. mining in general pays at such a **** poor rate, that miners see a fit without mining enhancers in their lows to be a waste of time. Truth is, mining is a waste of time and not maximizing ore yield per hour is an even bigger waste of time. So in order to curb the broken mining mechanic, they end up flying expensive and tankless paper bags.
The Real Solution
Is that a tanked Hulk should be able to make a reasonable profit comparable to other professions in the same sec status of space. But in order to do that, bots would have to be addressed. It is not about Hulks, or gankers... it's actually about the damn bots killing mining and the economy.
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:25:00 -
[418] - Quote
Tippia wrote: except that the numbers show that the exhumers are not out of line with what other T2 upgrades provide; that the popularity of the ships show that the capabilities are more than enough for the T2 variant to completely overshadow the T1 version; and that the SP investment to get to exhumers is quite small compared to other hull types.
Go get your numbers and post them with satisfactory detail and all your confirmable references.
Tippia wrote:Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Your opinion does not make it good design. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:26:00 -
[419] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Gotta agree with T
But you should be required to keep those biomassed gank alts for a set time imo. Yeah its a exploit to biomass them but the ccp ppl are forever saying they dont have the ppl to watch every biomass so theres a big loophole https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:26:00 -
[420] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Ill just say XD and that you dont know what open market is. Good for you. Doesn't change the fact that you're using incomparable points of comparison if you just pick the lowest price, and that Jita is the point of comparison for goods in EVE.
Quote:Go get your numbers and post them with satisfactory detail and all your confirmable references. Did that already. Also, go read any of the ship popularity lists in the old QENs, in Diagoras' tweets, in the Economy presentations, and/or in the economy snapshots.
Quote:Your opinion does not make it good design. Agreed. The fundamental design principle of EVE GÇö that bigger isn't better and that marginal improvement comes at exponential cost GÇö is what makes it good design. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
315
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:27:00 -
[421] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Tippia wrote: Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Gotta agree with T But you should be required to keep those biomassed gank alts for a set time imo. Yeah its a exploit to biomass them but the ccp ppl are forever saying they dont have the ppl to watch every biomass so theres a big loophole
I think they do this now. It's 10 hours, right?
I'm not saying there's no room for change, just confirming that the mechanic is currently in-place if they ever did.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:30:00 -
[422] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:it seems to me, all the comparisons are a little skewed.
nay sayers say Tank the hulk. it's the only way. Combat ships lose DPS if they tank their ship. You talk as if the hulk should be in a fleet.The thing you seem to forget. In a fleet. You fit your role. IE DPS. EWAR. War links bla bla bla. In a fleet by that comparison the hulk should be able to fit it's role. By the same comparison, you dont see 1 destroyer going into a fleet of combat ships, and Picking off a cruiser. (Hi sec)
It is imbalanced. Even if you are in a fleet with 1 million combat ships protecting you. You cannot do anything before the ganker attacks. So even Fleeted the Hulk must gimp its use to survive.
Solo Hulks like all things, should find a happy medium between tank and usefulness. But again. There is not really a happy medium for the hulk.
For those that say TANK TANK TANK. You are not getting the whole picture. I have stated where there is imbalance. And it is using your own arguements in using fleets. If a hulk is fleeted it should be able to fit for its role. Would you take a logi into an Incursion if it maxed out its tank? at the expense of its role? would you?
I'll leave you to figure it out. It has a fleet role and no matter how you paint it. It cannot perform that roll to maximum performance if it needs to lose performance.
o7
Not everyone in the thread is screaming Tank! Tank!. Some of us view the Hulks role as being alert enough to simply avoid the gank, with a decent tank to offer a chance of survival if you screw up and get caught.
All fittings are a trade off, no matter what ship you are talking about. If you fit solely to fulfill a specific role with no thought to anything else you will be extremely vulnerable to anything outside of that role.
Now you "CAN" do this if you are situationally alert enough to get your ship out of harms way before something it is not set up to handle occurs, but that requires a modicum of skill.
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Digital Messiah
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
161
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:30:00 -
[423] - Quote
You guys are totally right, Why should the best and only top of the line mining ship for minerals be super tanky?
Lets review a few points. 1. It costs upwards of 200 million isk. 2. People have chosen to exploit its inability to tank a gank from an over heated frigate class ship. 3. The cost to tank ratio makes it not even worth fitting to survive a gank from a cruiser / battle cruiser sized ship. 4. You are more likely to lose it during hulkageddon than to ever pay it off. 5. I'm running out of reasons to even consider flying it...
Which is probably why afk bots are the only things sane enough to do it in mass all the time. lulz
On a more serious note, you don't train to fly a faction battleship, command ship, or say a titan. Only to have everyone tell you it shouldn't be able to fill its own role and survive a gank from a frigate sized vessel... I don't know the last time i heard someone tell me about how they lost their Carrier or battleship because an overheated destroyer ganked them before concord could come. Admit it, you guys like to exploit its weaknesses and do so only for the sheer joy of griefing another player. Which I'm not going to say is wrong or bad. Hell I have done my fair share of trolling. But would it be so bad as to provide it with some buff?
A few suggested buffs. 1. A fourth non-hardpoint high slot. Cloaky hulks?! Oh my! 2. Increase in powergrid. You might actually have to try, and that is only if that hulk pilot chooses to be tank fit. 3. give it a higher armor and shield base value. Even it they buffed it up to 5000 of each, it would be a major improvement.
For those crying that this would make it to difficult to gank. Consider why you became a pirate. Did you do it because it was easy? Or did you do it because it provided a challenge with the rewards of making people upset. Also why should there be no risk versus reward for the ganker? Losing sec status isn't a risk, it is a constant. Anyone with half a brain can overheat a brutix and blaster down a hulk before concord shows.
But this is my rant. I'm certain I will get flamed for having an opinion on the subject. I don't really care, most the views of gankers is biased. Not to mention CCP would rather keep hulks gankable rather than fix mining. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:30:00 -
[424] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Gotta agree with T
But you should be required to keep those biomassed gank alts for a set time imo. Yeah its a exploit to biomass them but the ccp ppl are forever saying they dont have the ppl to watch every biomass so theres a big loophole More to the point, there is pretty much no reason to recycle a gank alt GÇö it already has the skill and the sec status isn't much of a hindrance (once again due to people choosing it not to be). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:33:00 -
[425] - Quote
Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:Ill just say XD and that you dont know what open market is. Good for you. Doesn't change the fact that you're using incomparable points of comparison if you just pick the lowest price, and that Jita is the point of comparison for goods in EVE.
When I compare prices, I compare prices from manufacturer or importer for both products so that I dont have a problem with not knowing how much middlemans were there and how big their margin were. And you like to use price for one thing form one quy that bought that thing from manufacturer and second from 10th middleman. Good for you. I see now how you allways "win" a debate.
Over and out. That Ain't Right |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:33:00 -
[426] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote: On a more serious note, you don't train to fly a faction battleship, command ship, or say a titan. Only to have everyone tell you it shouldn't be able to fill its own role and survive a gank from a frigate sized vessel... I don't know the last time i heard someone tell me about how they lost their Carrier or battleship because an overheated destroyer ganked them before concord could come. Admit it, you guys like to exploit its weaknesses and do so only for the sheer joy of griefing another player. Which I'm not going to say is wrong or bad. Hell I have done my fair share of trolling. But would it be so bad as to provide it with some buff? .
T3, deadspace-fit PVE strategic cruisers costing 1-2 billion isk can be ganked by 1-2 hurricanes costing 10% as much.
Over-all, it's suicide ganking as a whole that's too powerful, since there's essentially zero risk of a pre-emptive strike against the offenders. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
316
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:36:00 -
[427] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Digital Messiah wrote: On a more serious note, you don't train to fly a faction battleship, command ship, or say a titan. Only to have everyone tell you it shouldn't be able to fill its own role and survive a gank from a frigate sized vessel... I don't know the last time i heard someone tell me about how they lost their Carrier or battleship because an overheated destroyer ganked them before concord could come. Admit it, you guys like to exploit its weaknesses and do so only for the sheer joy of griefing another player. Which I'm not going to say is wrong or bad. Hell I have done my fair share of trolling. But would it be so bad as to provide it with some buff? .
T3, deadspace-fit PVE strategic cruisers costing 1-2 billion isk can be ganked by 1-2 hurricanes costing 10% as much. Over-all, it's suicide ganking as a whole that's too powerful, since there's essentially zero risk of a pre-emptive strike against the offenders. Where should said risk come from?
Answer that question correctly and you win Eve.
Answer it wrong and you forever label yourself a victim. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:37:00 -
[428] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Where should said risk come from?
Answer that question correctly and you win Eve.
Answer it wrong and you forever label yourself a victim.
Considering that it's supposedly PVP, the risk to suiciders should come from other players, not a 20 second CONCORD timer.
Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
316
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:38:00 -
[429] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Where should said risk come from?
Answer that question correctly and you win Eve.
Answer it wrong and you forever label yourself a victim.
Considering that it's supposedly PVP, the risk to suiciders should come from other players, not a 20 second CONCORD timer.
Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6011
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:40:00 -
[430] - Quote
bornaa wrote:When I compare prices, I compare prices from manufacturer or importer for both products so that I dont have a problem with not knowing how much middlemans were there and how big their margin were. You mean those things that will affect all things equally in a large-volume hub such as Jita?
The problem is that your GÇ£lowest priceGÇ¥ points of comparison do not let you filter out the factors you just mentioned GÇö they just pick where people are being the most na+»ve about how much they ask for their goods without any kind of knowledge of why they're asking for those prices. You are comparing disparate points with unknown, unknowable, and most likely vastly different market forces are creating that low price. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:42:00 -
[431] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Did that already. Also, go read any of the ship popularity lists in the old QENs, in Diagoras' tweets, in the Economy presentations, and/or in the economy snapshots.
Oh, you're going to equivocate with "popularity", got it.
Tippia wrote: Agreed. The fundamental design principle of EVE GÇö that bigger isn't better and that marginal improvement comes at exponential cost GÇö is what makes it good design.
Ignoring arguments you don't like by trying to recast them into another black and white paradigm. Your game is old, learn some new tricks.
|
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:42:00 -
[432] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules.
There's no telling who's a suicide ganker and who their target is. All you see is a Tornado sitting outside a station. If you were to dock and get a Tornado and blow them up, they'd just get a new Tornado. If you keep doing that, you're just going to drive yourself into negative sec status and you'd have caused no more damage to him than you did to yourself.
On the other hand, burning a tornado to kill a t3 is very profitable, so there will always be someone doing it. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:43:00 -
[433] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules.
Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:48:00 -
[434] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
Not everyone in the thread is screaming Tank! Tank!. Some of us view the Hulks role as being alert enough to simply avoid the gank, with a decent tank to offer a chance of survival if you screw up and get caught.
All fittings are a trade off, no matter what ship you are talking about. If you fit solely to fulfill a specific role with no thought to anything else you will be extremely vulnerable to anything outside of that role.
Now you "CAN" do this if you are situationally alert enough to get your ship out of harms way before something it is not set up to handle occurs, but that requires a modicum of skill.
I understand what you are saying. A little common sense, and a little grey matter will allow you to avoid some ganks. Not all but some.
If you got to warp out everytime a ratting ship enters your belt. It becomes a little tiresome. Added to the fact, that those ships will do that continiously, just to annoy you.
Yes I mine. No, I dont care how weak or strong the hulk is. I play my game my way, with the tools I am given. If I am ganked, I know I have 1 month to get my revenge.It still remains, in a fleet, the Hulk cannot not Fit for its role, if it needs to trank itself.
o7 |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:49:00 -
[435] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote: Did that already. Also, go read any of the ship popularity lists in the old QENs, in Diagoras' tweets, in the Economy presentations, and/or in the economy snapshots.
Oh, you're going to equivocate with "popularity", got it. Tippia wrote: Agreed. The fundamental design principle of EVE GÇö that bigger isn't better and that marginal improvement comes at exponential cost GÇö is what makes it good design.
Ignoring arguments you don't like by trying to recast them into another black and white paradigm. Your game is old, learn some new tricks.
My friend, you are starting to lose your credibility.
The numbers of Hulk flown vs other ships is easily verifiable at the sources listed. The game design principles that CCP sticks with are the same as they have always been.
Respectfully, it's time to step back.
When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:49:00 -
[436] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules.
Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0.
I'm kind of hoping the "Shoot someone and you're fair game" mechanic happens. Having an honest-to-God cluster**** of violence and mayhem break out over a simple can flip would be quite fun. Yes, it would be abused mightily by the gankers but it would be fun none-the-less until the nerfs hit.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6011
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:50:00 -
[437] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules. Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0. Incorrect. Gankers are not as protected as the miners are, since the act of ganking means that CONCORD will bow out should you choose to seek revenge. As DG points out, the problem is mentality not rules GÇö people choose to let the gankers be protected, when they could equally choose not to.
In fact, if the (unconfirmed) rumours that Crimewatch 2.0 will remove kill rights are true, they will actually be more protected after the patch than before.
If that doesn't happen, then CW2.0 will have no effect at all.
Sycho Pathic wrote:I'm kind of hoping the "Shoot someone and you're fair game" mechanic happens. That mechanic already exists. It's called GCC. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:50:00 -
[438] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: So mining drops your security status by the mineral intake or what?
Get bad standings with the veldspar faction, probably. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:52:00 -
[439] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: My friend, you are starting to lose your credibility.
The numbers of Hulk flown vs other ships is easily verifiable at the sources listed. The game design principles that CCP sticks with are the same as they have always been.
Respectfully, it's time to step back.
My argument wasn't about the popularity of the ship. Tip attempting to recast the argument. Sorry. I'm not going to debate Y when my point is X. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:53:00 -
[440] - Quote
Sycho Pathic wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules.
Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0. I'm kind of hoping the "Shoot someone and you're fair game" mechanic happens. Having an honest-to-God cluster**** of violence and mayhem break out over a simple can flip would be quite fun. Yes, it would be abused mightily by the gankers but it would be fun none-the-less until the nerfs hit.
Be careful what you wish for. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6011
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:55:00 -
[441] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:My argument wasn't about the popularity of the ship. Tip attempting to recast the argument. Sorry. I'm not going to debate Y when my point is X. Your argument is that the T2 upgrade to barges isn't worth the effort; my argument is that the numbers don't support this claim GÇö if it were true, exhumers should be far less popular than they are, and the price for the upgrade shouldn't be anywhere as beneficial as it is.
I'm not trying to recast the argument GÇö I'm countering your assertion with data. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:02:00 -
[442] - Quote
Tippia wrote: What's equivocal about CCP's numbers on which ships are used the most (among them the Hulk) and which are used the least (among them the Covetor, to the point where they're adjusting its price/performance ratio)?
There are additional factors to that, such as the hulk having skill requirements that made the covetor passed over in short order.
Besides, popularity was never the point. You choose to wander off to make an argument about popularity and ignore what you do not want to address.
Quote:What argument was being ignored? The fact is that bigger-isn't-better and marginal-improvement-for-huge-cost are fundamental design principles of EVE, and that a ship that adheres to these principles is thus well designed. It's not my opinion GÇö it's how they've chosen to approach balance.
That does not always lead to "good design". You choose to ignore the basic economic arguments for a ship balancing debate. Congrats on once again proving you ignore what you do not wish to address.
|
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:03:00 -
[443] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:My argument wasn't about the popularity of the ship. Tip attempting to recast the argument. Sorry. I'm not going to debate Y when my point is X. Your argument is that the T2 upgrade to barges isn't worth the effort; my argument is that the numbers don't support this claim GÇö if it were true, exhumers should be far less popular than they are, and the price for the upgrade shouldn't be anywhere as beneficial as it is.
The answer to why that is, Greed. pure and simple. It's why Miners do not tank Hulks. Fitted for it's role the Hulk outperforms the Covetor by over 25%. It is not because the Hulk is in a good position. It's because it generates more Iskies.
o7 |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:07:00 -
[444] - Quote
Tippia wrote:1. Cost isn't a balancing factor. 2. No. People have chosen not to make use of its ability to tank, allowing it to be ganked from an overheated frigate. If people chose to actually make use of that ability, the frigate would no longer stand a chance. 3. The cost to tank ratio is anGǪ oddGǪ measure since, again, cost is not a balancing factor. Fitting a tank pretty much ensures that it will survive a cruiser/BC ship trying to gank it, and that makes the benefit pretty much infinite. 4. GǪso don't fly it during hulkageddon? 5. Interesting. A large number of people disagree with you, what with it being one of the most popular ships in the game. Be fair. ISK prices are a balancing factor. CCP has made changes to the balance by adjusting the bill of materials as well as to the source of materials a few times. They cannot adjust the price itself. How could they?
People then fly the Hulk often because they can skill for it after the Covetor for only a little bit of extra time and because Hulkageddon does not catch all Hulks. If gankers were putting more effort into it then how do you think would this affect the numbers?
|
VagabondAlt
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:09:00 -
[445] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Tippia wrote: Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Gotta agree with T But you should be required to keep those biomassed gank alts for a set time imo. Yeah its a exploit to biomass them but the ccp ppl are forever saying they dont have the ppl to watch every biomass so theres a big loophole Nobody biomasses ganking alts because they work just fine at -10. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
318
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:09:00 -
[446] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:1. Cost isn't a balancing factor. 2. No. People have chosen not to make use of its ability to tank, allowing it to be ganked from an overheated frigate. If people chose to actually make use of that ability, the frigate would no longer stand a chance. 3. The cost to tank ratio is anGǪ oddGǪ measure since, again, cost is not a balancing factor. Fitting a tank pretty much ensures that it will survive a cruiser/BC ship trying to gank it, and that makes the benefit pretty much infinite. 4. GǪso don't fly it during hulkageddon? 5. Interesting. A large number of people disagree with you, what with it being one of the most popular ships in the game. Be fair. ISK prices are a balancing factor. CCP has made changes to the balance by adjusting the bill of materials as well as to the source of materials a few times. They cannot adjust the price itself. How could they? People then fly the Hulk often because they can skill for it after the Covetor for only a little bit of extra time and because Hulkageddon does not catch all Hulks. If gankers were putting more effort into it then how do you think would this affect the numbers? We'll find out in 17 days won't we? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:13:00 -
[447] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:We'll find out in 17 days won't we? I will try to sit in a cloaked ship and stream it over Justin TV if I find the time. I do not want to miss it for anything. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
540
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:15:00 -
[448] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: The numbers of Hulk flown vs other ships is easily verifiable at the sources listed. The game design principles that CCP sticks with are the same as they have always been.
Respectfully, it's time to step back.
The published numbers were from the time when botters had complete free reign. Nor the published numbers say why people go for those ships.
A botter thinks in a macro view:
1) Squeeze out the maximum minerals per day, with their immense volume the cost of a T2 mining ship tends to zero.
2) Everything is disposable and will be caught one day, including banned pilots and tied ships. Keep efficiency high till it lasts.
They will go for hulks / macks because if they lose 1-2-3 of them they have 4 spares at the station already. Making some tens of billions in botted mineral has its perks and money is one of them.
At the same time, losing 1-2-3 of those is still rare enough expecially when you have others guarding and perma-repping (go to see any "modern" bot operation and you'll see how they adapted).
The average real miner will have 1-3 ships, a botter will have 8-10, guess which best efficiency ships will be over-popular?
Also - and I don't know how the Bright Minds in this thread missed it - players in all the MMOs tend to want to get to "end game", and T2 mining ships are the end game and the trophy to proudly show off. Right today there was a guy in local announcing how he couldn't wait the 1h 24m till he "dinged" ice mining V.
That freshness, those feelings for something new and rewarding are something that has long abandoned the forum berserkers in here. They won't be able to understand.
That guy tomorrow will buy a mack like it's his "supercar". That's what drives players to leave the retriever / covetor more than some dry, stupid numbers.
Only later, he'll learn that he could have stuck with his old Honda.
Over time, the general populace will decide how to solve the "Hulk is crap" dilemma and the development I have seen, greatly amuses me, because it does NOT go with the poopy advices going on this forum.
Guess what, they don't retardedly go for over 90000 EHP gimpy waste of ships but they bring in mercs and friends and me. Feel free to browse some random ice systems KBs close to Jita to see how catalyst heroes have been podded enough to leave in the last 2-3 weeks
Come the next aggression mechanics change, it'll get incredibly fun, my BPOs are already crunching wartoys. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6011
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:19:00 -
[449] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:There are additional factors to that, such as the hulk having skill requirements that made the covetor passed over in short order. GǪwhich kind of contradicts that the difference is so small as to make the Hulk not worth-while as an upgrade.
Quote:Besides, popularity was never the point. You choose to wander off to make an argument about popularity and ignore what you do not want to address. No, the argument was about relative effectiveness, and your claim that the Hulk wasn't really worth it is being contradicted by the numbers. The numbers themselves are not in question (although you tried to do that too) GÇö they are a counter-argument to your claim.
Quote:That does not always lead to "good design". You choose to ignore the basic economic arguments for a ship balancing debate. You mean cost GÇö that thing that isn't a factor in balance?
Whitehound wrote:Be fair. ISK prices are a balancing factor. CCP has made changes to the balance by adjusting the bill of materials as well as to the source of materials a few times. They cannot adjust the price itself. How could they? No. Cost is not a balancing factor as was shown very early in the thread. Cost is a result of supply and demand; it does not dictate performance GÇö if anything, it's the other way around because of how much in demand a high-performing ship is. However, due to that design principle of marginal improvement at ever increasing costs, the value you get for a higher price is somewhere between nil and completely unpredictable.
Put another way: just because a Hulk costs a lot doesn't mean it has to be made to perform better GÇö instead, the reason it costs a lot is because it already does perform better. If you don't think it's worth the cost, don't use it, and soon the price will match what you think its performance is. Problem solved. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:27:00 -
[450] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. Cost is not a balancing factor as was shown very early in the thread. Cost is a result of supply and demand; it does not dictate performance GÇö if anything, it's the other way around because of how much in demand a high-performing ship is. However, due to that design principle of marginal improvement at ever increasing costs, the value you get for a higher price is somewhere between nil and completely unpredictable.
Put another way: just because a Hulk costs a lot doesn't mean it has to be made to perform better GÇö instead, the reason it costs a lot is because it already does perform better. If you don't think it's worth the cost, don't use it, and soon the price will match what you think its performance is. Problem solved. Yes, cost is a balancing factor. CCP did change the bill of materials in the past and did change production processes as well as the sources. They cannot balance the price because of the free market. CCP knows this just like you do. |
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Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:28:00 -
[451] - Quote
EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Thus the "endgame" you describe does not exist, Vaerah. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:34:00 -
[452] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: Yes, cost is a balancing factor. CCP did change the bill of materials in the past and did change production processes as well as the sources. They cannot balance the price because of the free market. CCP knows this just like you do.
I'm sorry, but I must tell you that you don't understand the motives behind changes in the BOM, nor the essential meaning of the phrase "ship balance".
No change to BOM made one ship preferable to another. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
540
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:36:00 -
[453] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Thus the "endgame" you describe does not exist, Vaerah.
I know, but the new players don't.
Also, what you say it's not entirely true. After I made my carrier, I am slowly training my supercarrier stuff because I want one to go d!ck around. I feel a drive to progression which maybe is not exactly "WoW" but it's still a quest for progression.
Likewise I have industry characters, I'll train them to be able to fly a Rorqual, because that's the "end game" for them. It's not like I can train the other industry skills to VI or VII anyway. (Yes my industry characters already can fly L4 and have combat skills for PvP). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
290
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:39:00 -
[454] - Quote
"EVE isn't about skillpoints" "EVE isn't about isk" "EVE isn't about the economy" "EVE isn't about gear" "EVE isn't about killmails" "EVE isn't about x" "EVE isn't about y"
I've followed all the advice given to me on this forum. That's why I have 0 skill points, 0 isk and fly nothing but rookie ships. Thanks EVE community! Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1208
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:40:00 -
[455] - Quote
Ackemi wrote:I will say that I'd take a hulk tank nerf if you give my hulk the agility and speed of a Rapier.
But then you'd have a chance of getting away, and the gankers wouldn't have free kills |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:46:00 -
[456] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: Yes, cost is a balancing factor. CCP did change the bill of materials in the past and did change production processes as well as the sources. They cannot balance the price because of the free market. CCP knows this just like you do.
Unfortunately, you are incorrect. Cost is a factor in the reason for ganking being popular. It has no bearing on balance.
IE. If the Hulk cost less than the Destroyer. The gank would less likely happen. Even though stats on both ship remained the same.
Karim alRashid wrote:EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Thus the "endgame" you describe does not exist, Vaerah.
Another incorrect post. A sandbox has no "End game", but acquiring "gear" is an important part of the game. Your Ship and its fitting needs to be at the top of its game to perform to the maximum. The better the ship, the better the potential in increased performance.
Take the griffin, and compare it to the Falcon. Both have the same roles. do you stop at the griffin for your ewar game?
o7 |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:47:00 -
[457] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Ackemi wrote:I will say that I'd take a hulk tank nerf if you give my hulk the agility and speed of a Rapier. But then you'd have a chance of getting away, and the gankers wouldn't have free kills
On a related note, Rapiers get caught and blasted out of space all the time.
What gives a successful Rapeir pilot the edge he needs to not be one of those piles a scrap?
1: A survivable fit that still allows him to perform his role. *Note: This does not mean fit to maximize his webbing ability to the exclusion of all else.
2: Being an alert and situationally aware pilot that knows when to get the hell out.
These same factors apply to any ship in the game, including Hulks. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
churrros
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:52:00 -
[458] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Oh baltec, its also usually illegal for them (oil tankers) to mount weapons. Otherwise the pirates in Africa wouldnt be as nig an issue Think you'll find you're incorrect, 30 seconds of google says they have plenty of guns onboard and sometimes even small jury rigged mounted weapons. The pirates of which you speak also usually turn up in a 30ft inflatable or wooden dingy armed with RPG's. This kind of explains why theres not much point in major armaments. The RPG's are a deterrant, and so are the guns on the ship, nobody wants to shoot cus they're all sitting on a massive floating dirty bomb. Sorry bit off topic for a sec there. Anyway, you can slap metal plates on a truck and make it an "armored" truck, but if you want a tank dont armor a truck and complain it dont work like a tank...
Actually, according to the international maritime laws, commercial ships cannot have lethal weapons aboard. No guns.
Thats why some people tried to develop sonic based weapons that were supposed to deter pirates from boarding.
I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, I used to work for a shipping company.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:52:00 -
[459] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Whitehound wrote: Yes, cost is a balancing factor. CCP did change the bill of materials in the past and did change production processes as well as the sources. They cannot balance the price because of the free market. CCP knows this just like you do.
Unfortunately, you are incorrect. Cost is a factor in the reason for ganking being popular. It has no bearing on balance. IE. If the Hulk cost less than the Destroyer. The gank would less likely happen. Even though stats on both ship remained the same. Karim alRashid wrote:EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Thus the "endgame" you describe does not exist, Vaerah. Another incorrect post. A sandbox has no "End game", but acquiring "gear" is an important part of the game. Your Ship and its fitting needs to be at the top of its game to perform to the maximum. The better the ship, the better the potential in increased performance. Take the griffin, and compare it to the Falcon. Both have the same roles. do you stop at the griffin for your ewar game? o7
Indeed.
Although I have one point to make about the Griffin vs Falcon observation.
Skill wise yes, you likely wish to progress to the point where you can fly the Falcon.
This does not necessarily mean that you would always fly it instead of the Griffin, say in the case of joining a frigate roam (where a Falcon would only serve to slow down the group as a whole).
Options are good, they allow you to choose the right tool for the job.
In the context of this discussion, it allows you the choice of knowing when its okay to fly your Hulk vs. when the wiser course of action would be to fly a Coveter instead. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:54:00 -
[460] - Quote
churrros wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Oh baltec, its also usually illegal for them (oil tankers) to mount weapons. Otherwise the pirates in Africa wouldnt be as nig an issue Think you'll find you're incorrect, 30 seconds of google says they have plenty of guns onboard and sometimes even small jury rigged mounted weapons. The pirates of which you speak also usually turn up in a 30ft inflatable or wooden dingy armed with RPG's. This kind of explains why theres not much point in major armaments. The RPG's are a deterrant, and so are the guns on the ship, nobody wants to shoot cus they're all sitting on a massive floating dirty bomb. Sorry bit off topic for a sec there. Anyway, you can slap metal plates on a truck and make it an "armored" truck, but if you want a tank dont armor a truck and complain it dont work like a tank... Actually, according to the international maritime laws, commercial ships cannot have lethal weapons aboard. No guns. Thats why some people tried to develop sonic based weapons that were supposed to deter pirates from boarding. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, I used to work for a shipping company.
True, but there is often a big difference between "what is legal" and "what is actually done"... especially when your ass is on the line. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
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Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:55:00 -
[461] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ok, you're not reading what I'm writing. I do read what you write. It seems to me that you are trying to avoid my point, but why? Unless you want to tell me will I however not care why you do this. In the end is it irrelevant to the people who say that a ship of 300m ISKs is too expensive. It is an opinion one needs to respect. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:56:00 -
[462] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Tippia wrote: Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Gotta agree with T But you should be required to keep those biomassed gank alts for a set time imo. Yeah its a exploit to biomass them but the ccp ppl are forever saying they dont have the ppl to watch every biomass so theres a big loophole I think they do this now. It's 10 hours, right? I'm not saying there's no room for change, just confirming that the mechanic is currently in-place if they ever did.
kinda figuring past the ten hour thing... if youre gonna gank with cheap week old created alts you should be stuck with them for a while (read month or two) instead of being able to exploit your way out of it (given that CCP has stated this is a bannable exploit).
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Whitehound
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:57:00 -
[463] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Unfortunately, you are incorrect. Read the devblogs. CCP has stated a few times that changes were made to address the prices of items. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:59:00 -
[464] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:In the end is it irrelevant to the people who say that a ship of 300m ISKs is too expensive. It is an opinion one needs to respect. Then they can choose not to buy that ship and get something that fits their price/performance requirements betterGǪ which will eventually make that ship price come down to where they start to afford it again.
Alternatively, they'll notice that jumping ships will not let them earn as much as the new baseline for the economy, and realise that those 300M is actually not expensive any more compared to what you earn when flying it.
Either way, the price is not an argument for buffing or nerfing a ship, especially not when the price is subject to player control to such a large extent.
Quote:Read the devblogs. CCP has stated a few times that changes were made to address the prices of items. GǪbut, again, not to affect their balance, since cost is not a factor for balance. What they've done in all those cases is the exact opposite. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:59:00 -
[465] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.
Really? How many strip miners can you fit on your Iteron? ..and how long do you have to park it the belt to do it's job? There are better and more tank beefy alternatives to the iteron - not so with the hulk. Clearly it's tank is not respectable enough as it appears nothing but gank bait with no teeth for most non miners with a grudge - and iterons, though gankable, are still hit far less.
Better insurance options for the hulk would be welcome but not necessary, a small boost to survival would be nice; why not improve it some? This is after all "the best mining vessel in the game". [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:01:00 -
[466] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:Ill just say XD and that you dont know what open market is. Good for you. Doesn't change the fact that you're using incomparable points of comparison if you just pick the lowest price, and that Jita is the point of comparison for goods in EVE. When I compare prices, I compare prices from manufacturer or importer for both products so that I dont have a problem with not knowing how much middlemans were there and how big their margin were. And you like to use price for one thing form one quy that bought that thing from manufacturer and second from 10th middleman. Good for you. I see now how you allways "win" a debate. Over and out.
like'd the leaving not the argument https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:01:00 -
[467] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Karim alRashid wrote:EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Thus the "endgame" you describe does not exist, Vaerah. Another incorrect post. A sandbox has no "End game", but acquiring "gear" is an important part of the game. Your Ship and its fitting needs to be at the top of its game to perform to the maximum. The better the ship, the better the potential in increased performance.
Sorry, the post is entirely correct. Acquiring gear is not a goal, but means.
Quote: Take the griffin, and compare it to the Falcon. Both have the same roles. do you stop at the griffin for your ewar game?
No, of course, but not because I want to own a Falcon, but because Falcon is a better tool fo achieving my goals.
|
Tarn Kugisa
Space Mongolian Pinked
61
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:04:00 -
[468] - Quote
Dyniss wrote: Belt security is all you need a single cruiser usually faction or hac will work fine. I personally use a Gila myself. It tanks very well plus you have plenty of room for logistic drones. I carry a flight of heavy T2 shield bots myself.
Or you could use a Carrier. Either way, the Mining Barges would be better if they could tank better than rat frigs (Speaking out of my ass again) Real Caldari Hull Tank (And Win doing so) Support the EVE Version of Source Recoder! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:05:00 -
[469] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Really? How many strip miners can you fit on your Iteron? The amount of strip miners you can fit to it does not change the fact that we're talking about industry ships and that the cost is quite irrelevant as far as determining what you can and cannot fit onto that ship.
Quote:Better insurance options for the hulk would be welcome but not necessary, a small boost to survival would be nice; why not improve it some? Because there's no real reason to do so. Any boost in survivability it might need could be achieved by people starting to tank their ships instead of eroding away all their hitpoints with various mods that weaken the ship.
Karim alRashid wrote:Sorry, the post is entirely correct. Acquiring gear is not a goal, but means. GǪunless you're a collector, in which case fits and performance become completely secondary-átertiary -GêP:ary. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:05:00 -
[470] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Then they can choose not to buy that ship and get something that fits their price/performance requirements betterGǪ which will eventually make that ship price come down to where they start to afford it again.
Alternatively, they'll notice that jumping ships will not let them earn as much as the new baseline for the economy, and realise that those 300M is actually not expensive any more compared to what you earn when flying it.
Either way, the price is not an argument for buffing or nerfing a ship, especially not when the price is subject to player control to such a large extent. This reads to me like you want to tell the players to go play some other game, because this is your game. I am sorry, but if you cannot respect players reasoning for why they make their decisions then you are pretty much out of the discussion.
Quote:GǪbut, again, not to affect their balance, since cost is not a factor for balance. What they've done in all those cases is the exact opposite. Yes, to change the cost of items. And no it is exactly what they have done. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:11:00 -
[471] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:This reads to me like you want to tell the players to go play some other game, because this is your game. I am sorry, but if you cannot respect players reasoning for why they make their decisions then you are pretty much out of the discussion. They can make any decision they like, but they should accept that it is their decision and stop complaining about the game because just they don't like the decisions they made.
And anyway, the point remains the same: just because they dislike the price point on a specific item doesn't mean that item needs to be buffed, nerfed, or otherwise balanced. It means they should stop buying the item in question until it comes down in price to where they think it's worth it.
Quote:Yes, to change the cost of items. And no it is exactly what they have done. No. They changed the price to match the performance; they didn't change the performance to match the price or to balance the ship, because price is not a factor in determining performance and dictating balance.
You keep confusing cause and effect, factor and result.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:14:00 -
[472] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. They changed the price to match the performance; they didn't change the performance to match the price or to balance the ship, because price is not a factor in determining performance and dictating balance.
You keep confusing cause and effect, factor and result. I am only repeating what CCP said. You need to talk to them when you think their reasoning was wrong. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:14:00 -
[473] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Gotta agree with most of the above. It's a mining ship not a battleship or even a cruiser. You might find trucks full of expensive equipment in a warzone, but that doesn't mean it can or should have the defences of a tank. The hulk is designed to extract ore quickly and absolutely nothing else. If it had an amazing tank it would be unrealistic IMHO.
Then why is it's ore extraction less than twice that of a mining Abaddon with very high EHP?
Or mining Rokh. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:19:00 -
[474] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I am only repeating what CCP said. You need to talk to them when you think their reasoning was wrong. Ok, you need to provide an actual example and reference now.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:22:00 -
[475] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:In the end is it irrelevant to the people who say that a ship of 300m ISKs is too expensive. It is an opinion one needs to respect. Then they can choose not to buy that ship and get something that fits their price/performance requirements betterGǪ which will eventually make that ship price come down to where they start to afford it again. Alternatively, they'll notice that jumping ships will not let them earn as much as the new baseline for the economy, and realise that those 300M is actually not expensive any more compared to what you earn when flying it. Either way, the price is not an argument for buffing or nerfing a ship, especially not when the price is subject to player control to such a large extent. Quote:Read the devblogs. CCP has stated a few times that changes were made to address the prices of items. GǪbut, again, not to affect their balance, since cost is not a factor for balance. What they've done in all those cases is the exact opposite.
Hee hee.
Or they should get a fully insured Covetor using the Lete Damage Control II and Reinforced Bulkhead II for 11,586 hitpoints EHP and something like 10% less mining rate.
You are joking, right? |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:24:00 -
[476] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:[quote=malcovas Henderson] Quote: Take the griffin, and compare it to the Falcon. Both have the same roles. do you stop at the griffin for your ewar game?
No, of course, but not because I want to own a Falcon, but because Falcon is a better tool fo achieving my goals.
Exactly. Thats why people buy the hulk. It offers the best potential for their goals. It's their "top of the range". It's their final goal. Why would miners stop at the Precuror? |
Whitehound
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:30:00 -
[477] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:I am only repeating what CCP said. You need to talk to them when you think their reasoning was wrong. Ok, you need to provide an actual example and reference now. No, if you do not read the devblogs on a regular basis then it is your loss and not mine. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:30:00 -
[478] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Gotta agree with most of the above. It's a mining ship not a battleship or even a cruiser. You might find trucks full of expensive equipment in a warzone, but that doesn't mean it can or should have the defences of a tank. The hulk is designed to extract ore quickly and absolutely nothing else. If it had an amazing tank it would be unrealistic IMHO. Then why is it's ore extraction less than twice that of a mining Abaddon with very high EHP? Or mining Rokh.
You mean almost twice as much ?
|
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:32:00 -
[479] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:I am only repeating what CCP said. You need to talk to them when you think their reasoning was wrong. Ok, you need to provide an actual example and reference now. No, if you do not read the devblogs on a regular basis then it is your loss and not mine.
OK, they have never said that.
Prove me wrong. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:34:00 -
[480] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No, if you do not read the devblogs on a regular basis then it is your loss and not mine. No, it's your loss because it means you cannot support your claims, and we can summarily dismiss them as nonsense.
So no, cost is not a factor in balance.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:36:00 -
[481] - Quote
lol lvl 2 mission artifact recovery, I warp in and start killing miners "ah so this is what its like" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:38:00 -
[482] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Why doesn't anybody do anything about it then?
The problem is mentality, not rules.
Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0.
moreso cause if you shoot them first YOU die
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:38:00 -
[483] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Karim alRashid wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
Take the griffin, and compare it to the Falcon. Both have the same roles. do you stop at the griffin for your ewar game?
No, of course, but not because I want to own a Falcon, but because Falcon is a better tool fo achieving my goals. Exactly. Thats why people buy the hulk. It offers the best potential for their goals. It's their "top of the range". It's their final goal. Why would miners stop at the Precuror?
I'm not sure what point are you trying to make.
I said acquiring gear is not a goal and you said it's important part of the game, to which I agree, but it still does not contradict the statement that acquiring gear is not a goal by itself.
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
83
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:40:00 -
[484] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:No, if you do not read the devblogs on a regular basis then it is your loss and not mine. No, it's your loss because it means you cannot support your claims, and we can summarily dismiss them as nonsense. So no, cost is not a factor in balance.
Who are you speaking on behalf of, or is it all about you ? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 22:44:00 -
[485] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Who are you speaking on behalf of, or is it all about you ? Everyone. Onus probandi is nasty that wayGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:02:00 -
[486] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:She or he is in disbelieve over almost everything. I will certainly not dig through tons of devblogs, patch notes and other stuff just to make them believe.
Tip's only goal is to have easily blown up tear factories. There's nothing more to it than that. Any argument that does not fit into the old rusty "eve is hard" mold is ignored. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6012
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:02:00 -
[487] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:She or he is in disbelieve over almost everything. I will certainly not dig through tons of devblogs, patch notes and other stuff just to make them believe. Then you shouldn't make grandiose claims about what CCP has said.
Quote:I wonder why people suddenly fail to remember the changes to the moon mats for example. Because those changes had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with market efficiency GÇö specifically to remove unwanted bottlenecks in the entire T2 production line, which were then, inevitably, replaced by new bottlenecks.
So no, cost is not a factor in balance.
Quote:And now Tippia pretends to have forgotten about it. No, I remember it just fine. So fine, in fact, that unlike you, I remember that it had nothing to do with balancing ships or items. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:03:00 -
[488] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:
Sorry, the post is entirely correct. Acquiring gear is not a goal, but means.
This is purely your opinion.
Getting a shiny ship for me may be a means but also a goal. I will never go PvP in a State Raven but you can stay sure I'd get one if I wanted.
I bought a mack just because I liked the color and the animation and the blue of the laser.
I bought a Maelstrom because I think it's cool with 3D glasses. Even now that I can fly a Vargur I still keep the Maelstrom because I like it. My personal aestethic goal was acquired.
I go around with an overkill T2 ship most of the time even if I don't need it, because I feel good.
I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:07:00 -
[489] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Because those changes had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with market efficiency GÇö specifically to remove unwanted bottlenecks in the entire T2 production line, which were then, inevitably, replaced by new bottlenecks.
So no, cost is not a factor in balance. Yes, those changes were made to reduce the costs of T2 ships. There was no other need to remove the bottleneck. Like you say, it is all only a matter of demand and offer. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:10:00 -
[490] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote: High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .
which is funny cause 99% of the time you say that you get trolled/flamed to death FOR saying it
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6013
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:13:00 -
[491] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:This is purely your opinion.
Getting a shiny ship for me may be a means but also a goal. I will never go PvP in a State Raven but you can stay sure I'd get one if I wanted. Sure, but at that point, things like performance, usefulness, and balance become rather trivial matters, do they not? You're after the item itself, not its use. If you're in that mode, then price/performance ratios become rather irrelevant and the price, alone, becomes the thing that has to be GÇ£conqueredGÇ¥, so a high price GÇö no matter how awful a thing you get for it GÇö is the draw.
Quote:I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal. The distinction that he's trying to make, I believe, is this: is the Hulk the goal, or is it the top-of-the-line mining the Hulk enables? Granted, the player might not consciously make the distinction, but isn't it more likely that it's actually the latter that is the goal, and the Hulk is just a means toward that goal?
Whitehound wrote:Yes, those changes were made to reduce the costs of T2 ships. GǪwhich means it had nothing to do with balance, since the ships themselves did not change in any way. So still no, cost is not a factor in balance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:14:00 -
[492] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lady Spank wrote: High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .
which is funny cause 99% of the time you say that you get trolled/flamed to death FOR saying it That is because a forum is a dangerous place to post the truth. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:15:00 -
[493] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Tip's only goal is to have easily blown up tear factories. Incorrect, of course, but keep piling up those fallacies GÇö they will really help your (complete lack of) argument.
If the argument isn't one you like, you ignore it anyway. This has been pointed out by a number of people over the past. I'm sure you'll ignore that too. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:15:00 -
[494] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote: The original statement stated, EvE is not a game of acquiring gear. Which is incorrect.
So you claim the opposite, that EvE is a game of acquiring gear, that the ultimate goal of EvE is to posses some piece of equipment?
This is certainly not my goal and have never heard CCP promoting and advertising the game that way. Quite the opposite, the game is promoted as a game where what you DO matters, not a game where what you OWN matters.
Quote: To achieve advancement,you need better quality ships. You cannot run lvl 4 missions in a T1 frigate.
False. I need better quality ship in order to tackle more difficult tasks, not in order to achieve some abstract "advancement".
Quote: If you choose to fly a rifter throughout your EvE career. that would be your preogarative. It will mean you negate a huge part of the game.
Yes, but this in no way supports the argument that the goal of EvE is to acquire gear.
Quote: A Hulk is the pinnacle ship of Mining. So a Miners ultimate ship to fly "goal", is a Hulk. Which validates Vaerah V's arguement.
It may be their intermediate goal, but certainly not their "endgame".
|
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:15:00 -
[495] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪwhich means it had nothing to do with balance, since the ships themselves did not change in any way. So still no, cost is not a factor in balance. It was one of many changes CCP did to address price balances. It was one of the greater ones I can remember. It is enough to proof that the price of an item is subject to game changes. QED. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6013
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:21:00 -
[496] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:If the argument isn't one you like, you ignore it anyway. This has been pointed out by a number of people over the past. I'm sure you'll ignore that too. You mean like how you ignored my question about what argument you were referring to?
Whitehound wrote:It was one of many changes CCP did to address price balances. Two different things. They just adjusted the resource requirements, not the balance.
Quote:It is enough to proof that the price of an item is subject to game changes. QED. No, not QED, because that wasn't what was in question. What was in question was whether cost was a factor in balance. Hint: it isn't. They didn't adjust the moon goo to change the ship balance GÇö they adjusted it to remove bottlenecks and make the market more efficient. The ship balance remained exactly the same as before because the ships themselves were left untouched. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:26:00 -
[497] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Sure, but at that point, things like performance, usefulness, and balance become rather trivial matters, do they not? You're after the item itself, not its use. If you're in that mode, then price/performance ratios become rather irrelevant and the price, alone, becomes the thing that has to be GÇ£conqueredGÇ¥, so a high price GÇö no matter how awful a thing you get for it GÇö is the draw.
The other guy and expecially you, are pretending to legislate how everybody else should play. Like broken records. I have news for you: nobody cares.
I make or buy what I make or buy because I like to. The price tag is no issue since something has not to be expensive to be coveted. If I want to make money to afford it I have just to play the market or something financially profitable.
Some of the financially profitable things could be a ship, and a ship that does good at its role. It's a plus. For many, the top ship for what they like IS their goal, because this is the spaceships game. Yes, even a stupid mining ship can be the goal, because not everybody are out to kill each other. I know enough hard core miners who go in ecstasy talking about having bought the mining COSMOS implant or having put some stupidly expensive mod on their Hulk.
It's their game, it's their end game, it's their goal and nobody has the right to disrespect them. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:27:00 -
[498] - Quote
Tippia wrote: You mean like how you ignored my question about what argument you were referring to?
You mean the question about why I think your arguments have the depth of a dry dinner plate? |
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:27:00 -
[499] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, not QED, because that wasn't what was in question. What was in question was whether cost was a factor in balance. Hint: it isn't. They didn't adjust the moon goo to change the ship balance GÇö they adjusted it to remove bottlenecks and make the market more efficient. Yes, you did question it. Actually you denied it, but this is not the point. CCP did respond to the players' demand to do something about the prices and they changed it. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:29:00 -
[500] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal.
I can't. Unless they are really dumb or listen to wrong people on forums.
When I was 6 months old I wanted to be able to fly a T2 fit sniper battleship. Not because I liked the ship model or texture. Not because I wanted to poses it (to "poses" some record in some database, heh). Not because I would obtain some sense of "achievement" (what achievement, you just have to wait it out).
But because back then it was the proper tool for achieving my then current goal of participating in big fleet battles.
This is the line of thinking I'd like to suggest to new and old players alike, if they want to have fun in this particular game.
|
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:32:00 -
[501] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lady Spank wrote: High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .
which is funny cause 99% of the time you say that you get trolled/flamed to death FOR saying it Normaly I don't agree with Lady Spank but this time he is right :(
Even in -1.0 systems you can fit a tank on your Hulk which is good enough to tank the belt rats. As you KNOW "neutral = bad" you will never stay in a belt with anythink but blue in local. This isn't posible in high as you couldn't mine at all with all the neutrals there. And most times you have a 5+++ system warning time via intels.
With all the safty of local+intel you can fit realy expensive stuff (pith A-type small booster + hardener) with very low risk to ever lose it. In high sec it will just make you an even brighter target.
In addition you can mine high end ore which improves your ISK/h imens.
You have just one risk: how to haul the ore to Jita which is no problem with jump frighter. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:33:00 -
[502] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Gotta agree with most of the above. It's a mining ship not a battleship or even a cruiser. You might find trucks full of expensive equipment in a warzone, but that doesn't mean it can or should have the defences of a tank. The hulk is designed to extract ore quickly and absolutely nothing else. If it had an amazing tank it would be unrealistic IMHO. Then why is it's ore extraction less than twice that of a mining Abaddon with very high EHP? Or mining Rokh. You mean almost twice as much ?
not even close...
~1300 m3 per minute in a rokh and ~1700 m3 per minute in a hulk......not even close to 2x as much |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6016
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:41:00 -
[503] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:The other guy and expecially you, are pretending to legislate how everybody else should play. I'm not dictating anything GÇö I'm asking you a couple of questions.
If gear is really the goal, then doesn't performance and balance and all that stuff take a back seat? If gear is really the goal, doesn't price become a challenge, rather than something that needs to be justified? If gear is really the goal, doesn't the activity that may or may not accompany it become more of an after-thought?
Quote:I make or buy what I make or buy because I like to. The price tag is no issue since something has not to be expensive to be coveted. If I want to make money to afford it I have just to play the market or something financially profitable. This seems to answer the second question with a GÇ£yesGÇ¥.
Quote:Some of the financially profitable things could be a ship, and a ship that does good at its role. It's a plus. For many, the top ship for what they like IS their goal, because this is the spaceships game. Yes, even a stupid mining ship can be the goal, because not everybody are out to kill each other. I know enough hard core miners who go in ecstasy talking about having bought the mining COSMOS implant or having put some stupidly expensive mod on their Hulk. And this is where that distinction matters: what you're talking about here is gear as means to an end, not an end in and of itself. The miner wants to be the top miner, so he needs the top ship/top implant/top droneGǪ not because it's the top ship [etc], but because it lets him be the top miner GÇö it a means towards that end. it may be a purely academic distinction, but it sits right at the hart of the matter of what the actual goal is: the gear or the activity.
Adunh Slavy wrote:You mean the question about why I think your arguments have the depth of a dry dinner plate? So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
Whitehound wrote:Yes, you did question it. Actually you denied it, but this is not the point. CCP did respond to the players demand to do something about the prices and they did. No, I never questioned it. I questioned your assertion that CCP said that price was a balancing factor GÇö an assertion you have not been able to back up. This is something vastly different from prices being subject to game changes, which was never in question until you brought it up as GÇ£proofGÇ¥ for them affecting balance (never mind that you didn't in any way link those changes to any actual balance changes). You're begging the question. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:43:00 -
[504] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I can clearly understand why someone who is 6 months in the game would see an Hulk as his goal.
I can't. Unless they are really dumb or listen to wrong people on forums. When I was 6 months old I wanted to be able to fly a T2 fit sniper battleship. Not because I liked the ship model or texture. Not because I wanted to poses it (to "poses" some record in some database, heh). Not because I would obtain some sense of "achievement" (what achievement, you just have to wait it out). But because back then it was the proper tool for achieving my then current goal of participating in big fleet battles. This is the line of thinking I'd like to suggest to new and old players alike, if they want to have fun in this particular game.
There is this incredible thing called personal taste.
And education too, as they will never call you dumb just because your own preferences don't match with their perceived must do or must be. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:46:00 -
[505] - Quote
Maybe it's time for a dedicated endgame highsec mining ship.
Orca without tractor and gank link bonus but 8 standart T2 miners which get 200% range bonus?
- Hybrid weapons changed - Projektil weapons changed - some combat ships changed - new combat ships where introduced - now it's time to tune Mining+Industrial ships to the combat changes Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:48:00 -
[506] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
ROFL - you have more than proven you are not worth wasting time upon. When you decide to debate honestly, I'll do something other than poke you with this pointed stick. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
294
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:49:00 -
[507] - Quote
End-game null-sec mining ship:
-COVOPS Miner, so you can steal ore right from under the nullbears' noses and transport it to high-sec. Hey, null is supposed to be full of competition right? Maybe this way this statement will have a grain of truth to it.
-High-Sec Miner: 100k EHP, more cargo hold (so you don't have to jetcan), less yield. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:50:00 -
[508] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Imagine this, maybe their ultimate goal is to participate in big mining fleets like yours was to join big fleet battles.
Imagine this, it is what I was suggesting all along. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:50:00 -
[509] - Quote
At the end of the day this thread comes down to this:
Some of the spineless twits want to grow their wallets AFK in a totally risk-free environment in a ship that's basically impervious to attack.
The Hulk is not the ship for them. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:50:00 -
[510] - Quote
Oh and just as a side note.
Mineral price is allready and new skys. With Hulkgeddon it will reach new dimansions. Be prepared to pay 100m for a Drake or Hurrican and 400m for your favorit battleship ;). Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
132
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:51:00 -
[511] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:At the end of the day this thread comes down to this:
Some of the spineless twits want to grow their wallets AFK in a totally risk-free environment in a ship that's basically impervious to attack.
The Hulk is not the ship for them. No, at the end of the day it comes down to:
"don't buff my eazy kills" Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:53:00 -
[512] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:At the end of the day this thread comes down to this:
Some of the spineless twits want to grow their wallets AFK in a totally risk-free environment in a ship that's basically impervious to attack.
The Hulk is not the ship for them. No, at the end of the day it comes down to: "don't buff my eazy kills" You tell me just how muh buff you want there.
I'm listeing. Bawl away. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:55:00 -
[513] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, I never questioned it. I questioned your assertion that CCP said that price was a balancing factor GÇö an assertion you have not been able to back up. This is something vastly different from prices being subject to game changes, which was never in question until you brought it up as GÇ£proofGÇ¥ for them affecting balance (never mind that you didn't in any way link those changes to any actual balance changes). You're begging the question. I did not need to back it up since you do remember it. And yes you denied someone else here in the thread to use the price of a ship as an argument for a change, but this is exactly what lead CCP to make the change. Like I said, CCP cannot change the price for an item directly. We all know it. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
134
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 23:59:00 -
[514] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:At the end of the day this thread comes down to this:
Some of the spineless twits want to grow their wallets AFK in a totally risk-free environment in a ship that's basically impervious to attack.
The Hulk is not the ship for them. No, at the end of the day it comes down to: "don't buff my eazy kills" You tell me just how much buff you want there. I'm listeing. Bawl away. You want to gank a 400m hull? Spent 400m just for hulls ... then we can talk!
ONLY IN HIGHSEC! low+toilet sec is somethink total differnt! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:00:00 -
[515] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote: So you claim the opposite, that EvE is a game of acquiring gear, that the ultimate goal of EvE is to posses some piece of equipment?
This is certainly not my goal and have never heard CCP promoting and advertising the game that way. Quite the opposite, the game is promoted as a game where what you DO matters, not a game where what you OWN matters.
Everyone playing a game has goals. In EvE to attain those goals you have to acquire gear. (maybe with the exception of market players]
Karim alRashid wrote:False. I need better quality ship in order to tackle more difficult tasks, not in order to achieve some abstract "advancement".
Is not tackling more difficult tasks, advancement?
Karim alRashid wrote:Yes, but this in no way supports the argument that the goal of EvE is to acquire gear.
To fly the rifter, you have to acquire the rifter
Karim alRashid wrote:It may be their intermediate goal, but certainly not their "endgame".
I have already stated that EvE has no end game. V.V. stated that a factor to the Hulk, being a popular ship, is that Miners consider the Hulk to ultimate ship for their proffession
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:00:00 -
[516] - Quote
I'm still waiting to see how ridiculously OP you people think the Hulk should be.
I want numbers. Everything else is bleating. Tell me what babies you are if you want the Hulk to be buffed.
Show me how much EHP it should have, how much PG/Cargohold.
Go on. Prove you're not all just big crybabies and give me the numbers. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
134
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:01:00 -
[517] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I'm still waiting to see how ridiculously OP you people think the Hulk should be.
I want numbers. Everything else is bleating. Tell me what babies you are if you want the Hulk to be buffed.
Show me how much EHP it should have, how much PG/Cargohold.
Go on. Prove you're not all just big crybabies and give me the numbers. Numbers?
Take slot numbers from Command ship, remove weapons, add mining laser. EHP, defens, aligne time stay the same. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:04:00 -
[518] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I'm still waiting to see how ridiculously OP you people think the Hulk should be.
I want numbers. Everything else is bleating. Tell me what babies you are if you want the Hulk to be buffed.
Show me how much EHP it should have, how much PG/Cargohold.
Go on. Prove you're not all just big crybabies and give me the numbers. Numbers? Take slot numbers from Command ship, remove weapons, add mining laser. EHP, defens, aligne time stay the same.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Command ships can still be blapped by a small fleet of destroyers.
Which isn't what you said you wanted, at all. Give me numbers describing what you want 400m in hulls would be about 200 destroyers, right? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
296
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:05:00 -
[519] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I'm still waiting to see how ridiculously OP you people think the Hulk should be.
I want numbers. Everything else is bleating. Tell me what babies you are if you want the Hulk to be buffed.
Show me how much EHP it should have, how much PG/Cargohold.
Go on. Prove you're not all just big crybabies and give me the numbers. Numbers? Take slot numbers from Command ship, remove weapons, add mining laser. EHP, defens, aligne time stay the same.
This seems fair. No reason for a miner's bread and butter to not have the same defenses as a missioner's bread and butter, considering they (the miners) earn the same amount or less for a larger investment. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:06:00 -
[520] - Quote
That will not tank 400M in hulls in any way, shape, or form. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
296
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:06:00 -
[521] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Command ships can still be blapped by a small fleet of destroyers.
Which isn't what you said you wanted, at all. Give me numbers describing what you want. 400m in hulls would be about 200 destroyers, right?
Idiocy much?
At least then the gankers would have to be organized. As it is, it takes just a lone ganker, which needs to change. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:09:00 -
[522] - Quote
The problem is with bleaters like this for every inch they get they WAIL louder for the mile that they actually want.
He wants to mine AFK risk-free.
Not even single-player games let you do that do they? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6018
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:11:00 -
[523] - Quote
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:Find me a ship, of any type, that costs 200/300mil, that's fitted for max yield at it's role (if it's combat, it's a basic glass cannon), fitted with as much tank as it can after max yield.
Now name me a single one that can be killed by 2 destroyers that cost less than 10mil with fittings in under 10 seconds! :) For starters, that premise disqualifies the Hulk, since it cannot be killed by those two destroyers.
The Impel (with the prices I last saw in Jita at least) very nearly qualifies, with about the same margin as the Hulk. The Mastodon gets away with it because, being a shield tanker, it can fit both tank and primary purpose at once. The other DSCs don't qualify because they're too cheap. You can make a few T3 ships to fulfil those requirements as well, and the silly Damnation posted earlier almost qualifies too (a similarly silly Eos comes even closer, and you can't even properly max out a Claymore).
Adunh Slavy wrote:ROFL - you have more than proven you are not worth wasting time upon. When you decide to debate honestly, I'll do something other than poke you with this pointed stick. So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
Whitehound wrote:I did not need to back it up since you do remember it. Yes you do, because your claim remains unsupported: that CCP said price was a factor in balance and that they've used pricing modifications to adjust balance.
Quote:And yes you denied someone else here in the thread to use the price of a ship as an argument for a change, but this is exactly what lead CCP to make the change. GǪwhich once more isn't what you were claiming. You should really read what you've written and try to stick to one line.
No, I did not deny that they have adjusted prices. I've simply said that you cannot support your claim that they've used price as a factor in their balancing efforts. All you've offered is an example of them indirectly adjusting prices GÇö not that they've tried to adjust ship balancing in any way by doing so. And no, what lead CCP to make the change had nothing to do with balance and everything to do with market inefficiencies GÇö more specifically bottlenecks in the T2 manufacturing process.
So no, price is not a factor in balance.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ibn Taymiyyah
Treasures Collectors Northern Associates.
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:11:00 -
[524] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Command ships can still be blapped by a small fleet of destroyers.
Don't really care for the outcome of this discussion, but I'd like the see that small fleet of destroyers take down a command ship before concord arrives, as this is the point someone is making. 2/3 Destroyers taking down a 300mil ship in less time than concord needs to arrive.
I agree with BCs, whatever tier, ganking. There's "some" investment there. But destroyers? That's peanuts.
And please don't tell me that a "small" fleet is 12 dessies
On the other side, no one is making anyone fly a hulk. You know it's expensive, some of you actually know it sucks as it doesn't deliver even a near advantage to the cost scalling.... so, fly a covetor! :| If I was mining in highsec, I'd fly a covetor! When I was in wspace, I flew covetors and it worked great! :)
The whole discussion is rather pointless as I doubt CCP will buff the hulk. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:15:00 -
[525] - Quote
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Command ships can still be blapped by a small fleet of destroyers. Don't really care for the outcome of this discussion, but I'd like the see that small fleet of destroyers take down a command ship before concord arrives, as this is the point someone is making. 2/3 Destroyers taking down a 300mil ship in less time than concord needs to arrive. I agree with BCs, whatever tier, ganking. There's "some" investment there. But destroyers? That's peanuts. And please don't tell me that a "small" fleet is 12 dessies On the other side, no one is making anyone fly a hulk. You know it's expensive, some of you actually know it sucks as it doesn't deliver even a near advantage to the cost scalling.... so, fly a covetor! :| If I was mining in highsec, I'd fly a covetor! When I was in wspace, I flew covetors and it worked great! :) The whole discussion is rather pointless as I doubt CCP will buff the hulk. Of course you don't like where this conversation is going. 200 Destroyers is a lot of ******* destroyers. It terrifies you that your Hulk should have to withstand that according to peanutbrain logic. Which is fine, it should.
Let's say you're right, let's say it takes 12 guys. 12 x 2 is only 24M in hulls. That's small potatoes next to what he says he wants.
400M in hulls for 400M in hull.
I bet we could bring down a command ship (after a proper CONCORD pull for bonus time) in a 0.6 system with 8 Destroyers though. Just guesstimating the math, of course. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
580
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:16:00 -
[526] - Quote
They will not buff the hulk, but they are trying to better mining and they are changing the way aggression works everywhere. Who knows how these things combined will effect the game in the long term.
|
Mister Sparkles
Sparkly Rectums Chained Reactions
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:16:00 -
[527] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Yeah, Hulks are gankbait.
I find actually being at the keyboard improves your odds of survival, though.
are you my long lost brother? |
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:17:00 -
[528] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, I did not deny that they have adjusted prices. Thank you. |
Digital Messiah
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
164
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:20:00 -
[529] - Quote
So you are saying it is fair because a miner who doesn't have combat skills gets kill rights? I'm sure they are going to warp right to their hanger, grab their pvp ship that can not only find said pilot after a few gate jumps. And of course proceed to chase them into their possible null sec home or 1v1 with their superior combat skills?
No one is going to sit around to "possibly" get ganked by the person they just ganked. And further more, even if they did... They most likely have better skills and a ship to fight them. Not to mention could just as easily play station games until the other player gets bored, dies, or their right to kill them ends.
The current system is flawed. So I guess CCP needs to either pod gankers with concord. Or try to keep hulk ganking from being an eve online past time. The fact that it is a seasonal practice alone makes you realize how borked it is.
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6018
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:21:00 -
[530] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:You want to gank a 400m hull? Spent 400m just for hulls ... then we can talk! Eh, no. Balance doesn't really work that way. Balance is when you can't just buy your way to safety by spending more money on the hull GÇö balance is when, no matter how much you spend, you run the risk of being killed by even something quite small. In fact, the bigger you are GÇö and the more expensive your hull GÇö the more vulnerable you should be to those smaller ships.
Paper-scissors-rock. You picked the expensive rock, so he goes for the cheap paper.
Quote:Take slot numbers from Command ship, remove weapons, add mining laser. EHP, defens, aligne time stay the same. You still think that barges are battlecruisers, don't you?
Aranakas wrote:At least then the gankers would have to be organized. As it is, it takes just a lone ganker, which needs to change. This is already the case if youGǪ you knowGǪ tank your Hulk.
By the way, just as that Hulk is creeping up towards 300M, those GÇ£cheapGÇ¥ destroyers used to kill it start to creep up to 2M a pop, just for the hull, as opposed to the 7-800 they used to cost. So don't for a second think that the loss ratios have changed just because the Hulk is a bit more expensive than before.
Whitehound wrote:Thank you. So you agree, then, that price is not a factor in balance. Good. You're quite weird for tanking me for saying you were as wrong as you have always been. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:22:00 -
[531] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:So you are saying it is fair because a miner who doesn't have combat skills gets kill rights? I'm sure they are going to warp right to their hanger, grab their pvp ship that can not only find said pilot after a few gate jumps. And of course proceed to chase them into their possible null sec home or 1v1 with their superior combat skills?
No one is going to sit around to "possibly" get ganked by the person they just ganked. And further more, even if they did... They most likely have better skills and a ship to fight them. Not to mention could just as easily play station games until the other player gets bored, dies, or their right to kill them ends.
The current system is flawed. So I guess CCP needs to either pod gankers with concord. Or try to keep hulk ganking from being an eve online past time. The fact that it is a seasonal practice alone makes you realize how borked it is.
Actually what I expect them to do is fit tanks and use their scanners.
Barring that, mine aligned and change targets on the fly. Warp the moment they have visual on potential hostiles.
But what THEY expect to do is sit AFK and fatten their filthy wallets while rules lawyers bawl it up to CCP to protect the poor innocent tykes from the big bad wolf. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:22:00 -
[532] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:The problem is with bleaters like this for every inch they get they WAIL louder for the mile that they actually want.
He wants to mine AFK risk-free.
Not even single-player games let you do that do they? Dude, I can't mine at all (except Arbitrator with T1 mining drones). With none of my chars.
I'm just not such an ******* to not see the fail in balance and I don't try to defend this fail like you.
Do I want to PvP? Sure, I do it every day! Do I need such an eazy target for my e-peen? No! Does it mean I just star "fair fights"? For sure not *g*. Enter the space of my ally and you are dead. Doesn't matter if you fly a shuttle or multi billion mothership.
BUT as I like EVE I know this game can just survive when all professions are balanced. Not just the one I prefare. Without miners (and highsec miners too) I can't buy ships or equip as I have sero interest in mining+production.
With the lose of drone regions I allready know the price will rise like crazy. If Hulkgeddon starts and the ore from all this highsec miners is missing too I allready know T1 stuff will become crazy expensive.
And don't let's forget: 90% of all AFK highsec miners are ALTS FROM 00/low guys!! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
595
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:24:00 -
[533] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
Too damn funny, just keep repeating the same thing over and over. Doing exactly what many point out. Thanks for the evidence. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:24:00 -
[534] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:The problem is with bleaters like this for every inch they get they WAIL louder for the mile that they actually want.
He wants to mine AFK risk-free.
Not even single-player games let you do that do they? Dude, I can't mine at all (except Arbitrator with T1 mining drones). With none of my chars. I'm just not such an ******* to not see the fail in balance and I don't try to defend this fail like you. Do I want to PvP? Sure, I do it every day! Do I need such an eazy target for my e-peen? No! Does it mean I just star "fair fights"? For sure not *g*. Enter the space of my ally and you are dead. Doesn't matter if you fly a shuttle or multi billion mothership. BUT as I like EVE I know this game can just survive when all professions are balanced. Not just the one I prefare. Without miners (and highsec miners too) I can't buy ships or equip as I have sero interest in mining+production. With the lose of drone regions I allready know the price will rise like crazy. If Hulkgeddon starts and the ore from all this highsec miners is missing too I allready know T1 stuff will become crazy expensive. And don't let's forget: 90% of all AFK highsec miners are ALTS FROM 00/low guys!! What you are actually on-record as saying is that 400M in hulls should be required for 400M in hull.
That's 200 fitted destroyers, if not more.
Do you stand by your statement or retract it?
I am still waiting. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:25:00 -
[535] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Actually what I expect them to do is fit tanks and use their scanners.
We allready prove decent buffer tank fit is imposible.
And it is allready mentioned, that scanner is useless in high as you can't allways jump out as soon as some neutral enter the system.
And we allready prove, that a decent gank can kill ANY Hulk equal of fitting in less then 10 seconds (Hulk alligne time 17.4 seconds!!!!!!!).
So who do you try to impress with your lies? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
296
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:27:00 -
[536] - Quote
Wow. This thread is a monument to miner idiocy.
Props to Tippia - the master of making them look stupid and they don't even realize it.
The nerfs for gankers have been coming thick and fast, CCP patching away more and more of the sandbox.
But it STILL isn't enough for the crybears.
Miners mad because gankers used to get insurance (like everyone else). CCP caves, Insurance goes away - but only for gankers. Miners celebrate - until they discover they are still getting killed. Gankers compensate by attacking in dessies - even while GCC'd. -Nerfed within weeks. Gankers compensate by chain killing in Tornados. -Nerfed. Unload your mods into an Orca? -Nerfed.
And now we get a threadnaught demanding buffs for Hulks, even though they can already:
Tank over 31K EHP - (40K with fleet boosts), and still fit 3x T2 strip miners - which saves you from any solo gank, and most small group ganks.
Then I read their ideas for 'improving' the Hulk.
Just wow. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6018
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:28:00 -
[537] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Too damn funny, just keep repeating the same thing over and over. Doing exactly what many point out. Thanks for the evidence. So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
You have continually failed to produce anything even remotely resembling any kind of argument. I'll keep asking you to do so until you do or until you admit that you don't have one. Your choice. So far, we can safely conclude that you have nothing. You are just trying to stall to cover this embarrassing fact.
No, it's not funny that you fail to such a degree. I'm trying to help you here, but you refuse to take it. What a shame. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ibn Taymiyyah
Treasures Collectors Northern Associates.
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:28:00 -
[538] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Of course you don't like where this conversation is going. 200 Destroyers is a lot of ******* destroyers. It terrifies you that your Hulk should have to withstand that according to peanutbrain logic. Which is fine, it should.
Let's say you're right, let's say it takes 12 guys. 12 x 2 is only 24M in hulls. That's small potatoes next to what he says he wants.
400M in hulls for 400M in hull.
I bet we could bring down a command ship (after a proper CONCORD pull for bonus time) in a 0.6 system with 8 Destroyers though. Just guesstimating the math, of course.
Sorry mate, you must have misread what I wrote. I really don't care where this is going. If you're firing on my hulk, I'm already dead, no matter what ship you're bringing
And yeah, needing "equal valued" ships to kill your ship is bullshit. Never argued with you on that and never will. But I do believe that suiciding a 200mil ship should have more of a price tag than 10mil isk, that's all. It's so damn easy and profitable (if you choose your targets) that even I have considered going to highsec to kill some "bots"
Tippia wrote:For starters, that premise disqualifies the Hulk, since it cannot be killed by those two destroyers.
The Impel (with the prices I last saw in Jita at least) very nearly qualifies, with about the same margin as the Hulk. The Mastodon gets away with it because, being a shield tanker, it can fit both tank and primary purpose at once. The other DSCs don't qualify because they're too cheap. You can make a few T3 ships to fulfil those requirements as well, and the silly Damnation posted earlier almost qualifies too (a similarly silly Eos comes even closer, and you can't even properly max out a Claymore).
Mate, the hulk is going for 300mil. both the impel and the mastodon are 100mil cheaper. Anyway, a hulk does not die to 2 dessies when maxed out for something that's not tank? Even I have lost a hulk that way when I was a noob, unless you're going with faction/deadspace fittings.
But try the other challenge. Find a same priced hull that without fittings dies faster than a hulk. I haven't really looked at real numbers, but from the top of my head I can only find some that may come close to the raw survivability of the hulk.
And now that I've made whatever point I was trying to make, I'm off to bed! Later o/ |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
321
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:29:00 -
[539] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Actually what I expect them to do is fit tanks and use their scanners.
We allready prove decent buffer tank fit is imposible. And it is allready mentioned, that scanner is useless in high as you can't allways jump out as soon as some neutral enter the system. And we allready prove, that a decent gank can kill ANY Hulk equal of fitting in less then 10 seconds (Hulk alligne time 17.4 seconds!!!!!!!). So who do you try to impress with your lies? Your proof was pretty epic ****, too. A booster and an extender? A MWD on the Hulk?
Scanner is not useless. Period.
If you mine pre-aligned (LIKE I SAID) then your align time is zero, right? Then exactly what excuse besides "AFK" do you have if you just do it right? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6018
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:31:00 -
[540] - Quote
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:Mate, the hulk is going for 300mil. both the impel and the mastodon are 100mil cheaper. Anyway, a hulk does not die to 2 dessies when maxed out for something not tank? When maxed out for yield and then tanked, it will have just over 15k EHP. Those two dessies will have a hard time chewing through that in 10s. The rule of the game was a ship in the 200/300M region, which the Impel and Mastodon fit into. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:33:00 -
[541] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you agree, then, that price is not a factor in balance. Good. You're quite weird for tanking me for saying you were as wrong as you have always been. When CCP changed the prices for T2 ships did this certainly have an effect on the balance, because the prices for the T1 ships were not changed nor did none of the ships' abilities change. It just was not a question. |
Ibn Taymiyyah
Treasures Collectors Northern Associates.
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:34:00 -
[542] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:Mate, the hulk is going for 300mil. both the impel and the mastodon are 100mil cheaper. Anyway, a hulk does not die to 2 dessies when maxed out for something not tank? When maxed out for yield and then tanked, it will have just over 15k EHP. Those two dessies will have a hard time chewing through that in 10s. The rule of the game was a ship in the 200/300M region, which the Impel and Mastodon fit into.
True. But I think you get my point, which is moot either way, but couldn't resist in putting it out ;)
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:41:00 -
[543] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
LOL Tippia, the thread is here, Go find it if you are so concerned. It's simpler for your ego to just deny it instead of go find it. You've ignored it before, you're ignoring it now, you will ignore it again.
As I said, you're ego will find whatever justification it needs. You choose to prove the point for me, deal with it. And you're not trying to help anyone but your self, you only wish to speak.
Keep up with your refrain about how I won't provide you with the argument you ignored. Please continue to allow me to advertise the fact that you ignore arguments that you don't like.
See ya soon, fish on a hook. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
297
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:42:00 -
[544] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Actually what I expect them to do is fit tanks and use their scanners.
We allready prove decent buffer tank fit is imposible. And it is allready mentioned, that scanner is useless in high as you can't allways jump out as soon as some neutral enter the system. And we allready prove, that a decent gank can kill ANY Hulk equal of fitting in less then 10 seconds (Hulk alligne time 17.4 seconds!!!!!!!). So who do you try to impress with your lies?
Dumbass.
A decent buffer tank is impossible - if you have the brainpower of a tuna fish.
Surviving a gank is a numbers game. Buff your stats and you are vulnerable only to determined, coordinated gank squads. (not as many out there as you think). Be an idiot and fail to tank, and you are killed by randoms in a single Catalyst.
Based on your poor grammar and weak reasoning skills, my guess is that you fall into the latter category. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6019
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:45:00 -
[545] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:LOL Tippia, the thread is here GǪand yet you find it completely impossible to link, copy-paste, refer to, or otherwise provide any specific argument. Why is that?
It should be soooooo easy for you, since, obviously, you know where it is and since it's apparently readily available to us all. And yet you can't. Very strange. It's almost as if it's actually really, really difficult and as if it doesn't actually exist after allGǪ hmmm.
Quote:Keep up with your refrain about how I won't provide you with the argument you ignored. Since you keep being unable to provide it, in spite of how ridiculously simple it should be to do so, I think I will.
So you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:51:00 -
[546] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:The problem is with bleaters like this for every inch they get they WAIL louder for the mile that they actually want.
He wants to mine AFK risk-free.
Not even single-player games let you do that do they? Dude, I can't mine at all (except Arbitrator with T1 mining drones). With none of my chars. I'm just not such an ******* to not see the fail in balance and I don't try to defend this fail like you. Do I want to PvP? Sure, I do it every day! Do I need such an eazy target for my e-peen? No! Does it mean I just star "fair fights"? For sure not *g*. Enter the space of my ally and you are dead. Doesn't matter if you fly a shuttle or multi billion mothership. BUT as I like EVE I know this game can just survive when all professions are balanced. Not just the one I prefare. Without miners (and highsec miners too) I can't buy ships or equip as I have sero interest in mining+production. With the lose of drone regions I allready know the price will rise like crazy. If Hulkgeddon starts and the ore from all this highsec miners is missing too I allready know T1 stuff will become crazy expensive. And don't let's forget: 90% of all AFK highsec miners are ALTS FROM 00/low guys!! What you are actually on-record as saying is that 400M in hulls should be required for 400M in hull. That's 200 fitted destroyers, if not more. Do you stand by your statement or retract it? I am still waiting.
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:51:00 -
[547] - Quote
Tippia wrote:and yet you find it completely impossible to link, copy-paste, refer to, or otherwise provide any specific argument. Why is that?
It should be soooooo easy for you, since, obviously, you know where it is and since it's apparently readily available to us all. And yet you can't. Very strange.
Nope, I can find it quite easily. See, the difference, my ego is not invested in the debate, yours is. So I will keep poking you and letting you come back for more. And each time I will point out you ignore arguments you do not like.
Want some salt on that worm lil fish?
|
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:54:00 -
[548] - Quote
Tippia wrote:If the T2 ships' abilities did not change, nor did the T1 ships' abilities change then guess what GÇö the balance didn't change. The balance did certainly change. People wanted T2 ships to be cheaper so they can fly them more often. It shifted the balance towards T2 ships and away from T1 ships. |
Grumpymunky
Super Monkey Tribe of Danger
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:55:00 -
[549] - Quote
You don't even need a super tank. Fit a 15-20k ehp hulk and mine beside the guy that fits his hulk with a civilian shield booster. Once he gets ganked, it's time to move. Post with your monkey. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6019
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:55:00 -
[550] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Nope, I can find it quite easily. Unlikely, since you are so utterly unable to refer to it. SooooGǪ
GǪyou can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it? Every time I repeat it, it becomes more and more obvious that you have nothing, until you do what I want and provide it. Or until you do what I want and admit that you're just making it up. Either way, you're doing what I want. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 00:57:00 -
[551] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:If the T2 ships' abilities did not change, nor did the T1 ships' abilities change then guess what GÇö the balance didn't change. The balance did certainly change. People wanted T2 ships to be cheaper so they can fly them more often. It shifted the balance towards T2 ships and away from T1 ships. Balance is not just about the attributes of the ships within a ship class, but it is about all ships. Destroyer changed Tier 3 BC intrudocued weapon systems buffed
Tech 2 mining ships stay the same since they are introduced. Balance not changed? You are blind Tippia Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
597
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:02:00 -
[552] - Quote
Tippia wrote: you can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
ROFL, too late to try and turn any tables fish. Your tendency to ignore arguments has not been noticed by me alone. Sorry, you have a reputation. Up till now I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but not today.
Keep on squirming to save your ego. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:02:00 -
[553] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: If you mine pre-aligned (LIKE I SAID) then your align time is zero, right? Then exactly what excuse besides "AFK" do you have if you just do it right?
ROFL, so stupid.
Do you expect miners to be allways at 75% speed? cool story bro, then you are out of range before the stripe cycle ends.
Just stupid.
NO! Alligne time is not sero, not even with your false math. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Dilaro thagriin
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
35
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:03:00 -
[554] - Quote
Roime wrote: There are no suicide gankers outside hisec
well.. DUH!!!
that's kind of the point of low / null ... right? no suicide ganking... it's only SUICIDE if CONCORD will show up. should you need it spelled out better, they don't show up outside of highsec. so the hulks get popped just as often, if not more often, and those doing the popping don't even lose their destroyers.
seems to me that the hulk is not balanced against it's cost... that said, most t2 ships aren't... especially compared to some of their faction counterparts. |
Whitehound
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:06:00 -
[555] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that, since nothing changed about the ships, the balance didn't change. Just because ships are used more or less from one moment to the next doesn't mean the balance is different GÇö it just means people are flying different ships. Preferences changed, that is all.
The fallacy you're committing here is GÇ£affirming the consequentGÇ¥ GÇö look it up.
So no, price is still not a factor in balance. How many players fly a certain ship or a ship class is important for the balance.
Why are we even discussing this? This should be basic stuff for you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6020
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:09:00 -
[556] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Destroyer changed Tier 3 BC intrudocued weapon systems buffed
Tech 2 mining ships stay the same since they are introduced. Balance not changed? You are blind Tippia We're talking about Dominion, when moon goo requirements changed GÇö affecting the prices of T2 ships and modules GÇö but where no changes were made to any T1 or T2 ships (okGǪ the cap/supercap revamp went though, but that's slightly beyond the scope of the ships we're disussing).
Whitehound is asserting that, by changing those T2 prices, CCP wanted to GÇö and indeed did GÇö adjust the balance between ships and modules, even though nothing about those ships and modules was modified and even though they were balanced against each other in exactly the same way as before Dominion.
So none of the changes you mentioned apply to the patch we're discussing.
Whitehound wrote:How many players fly a certain ship or a ship class is important for the balance. Again, cause Gëá effect. No, the number of players that fly a certain ship or class does not determine the balance between those ships and classes. It's the other way around: the balance affects how many fly the ships.
Price is a different factor that affects how many fly the ships. Price is independent from balance GÇö just because both affect the same dependent variable doesn't mean they depend on each other.
So no, price is not a factor in balance.
Adunh Slavy wrote:[complete lack of argument] So you still can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:12:00 -
[557] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. You heard it here for folks.
COST IS IRRELEVANT TO SHIP EFFECTIVENESS
Do you ever think, or does your **** posting diarrhea work automatically? |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
135
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:16:00 -
[558] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, the number of players that fly a certain ship or class does not determine the balance between those ships and classes. Tengu -> other T3. Drake -> other BC. True for PvE and PvP.
Numbers prove balance.
Hulk is an exception as (allready mentioned) there is just ONE high end mining ship. Not 4 (T3) or 12 (BS) different.
So as dedicated miner ... you don't have the luxury of chosing what you fly. You MUST fly the Hulk. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
119
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:18:00 -
[559] - Quote
I haven't had a chance to test it but the only thing I can come up with for a Hulk is ECM drones. If it works, I'd like to see CCP double the drone bay of the Barge lines so they can run Medium ECM drones and still have bay for 5 small combat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
599
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:18:00 -
[560] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:How many players fly a certain ship or a ship class is important for the balance.
Why are we even discussing this? This should be basic stuff for you.
Tippia can't admit this basic idea that ship cost in materials and SP is a form of balance, because that would throw his/her/its entire argument off kilter. It will simply ignore and equivocate its way out of having to adress this.
Of course it will also cite that hulks are popular ships, ignoring the long standing SP ease of going from a covetor to a hulk, while at the same time turning around and saying player preference, (determined by cost, ability and SP) isn't a factor. |
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
599
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:19:00 -
[561] - Quote
Tippia wrote: So you still can't actually refer to any specific argument, I take it?
Back for more, worm breath? Why don't you ignore some more arguments as you are so well known for doing. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
541
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:20:00 -
[562] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: If you mine pre-aligned (LIKE I SAID) then your align time is zero, right? Then exactly what excuse besides "AFK" do you have if you just do it right?
ROFL, so stupid. Do you expect miners to be allways at 75% speed? cool story bro, then you are out of range before the stripe cycle ends. Just stupid. NO! Alligne time is not sero, not even with your false math.
Plus there's not one suicide ganker who does not have scram. Warp to cloak "reference" ship, warp scramble and then you can have all the aligment you want that if you were not looking in those 3 seconds before you get locked, you are melted. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:28:00 -
[563] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Again, cause Gëá effect. No, the number of players that fly a certain ship or class does not determine the balance between those ships and classes. It's the other way around: the balance affects how many fly the ships.
Price is a different factor that affects how many fly the ships. Price is independent from balance GÇö just because both affect the same dependent variable doesn't mean they depend on each other.
So no, price is not a factor in balance. Yes, the numbers of players flying a ship or a ship class is very important for determining the balance. Ships do get changed when they are flown too often. CCP does not change a ship only because a few attributes do not work out. It has not stopped players from flying these ships either. Only when too many players choose one ship or a ship class over another do you have an imbalance.
PS: I am going to bed now. May someone else teach Tippia the world. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:36:00 -
[564] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Do you expect miners to be allways at 75% speed? cool story bro, then you are out of range before the stripe cycle ends. No, you won't be.
You'll be moving at 65m/s. You keep your lasers on target over a ~30km trajectory (a bit less, unless we're talking about a very small asteroid or a very magical Hulk). At that speed, you can stay on target for ~450 seconds GÇö 7-+ minutes. That's enough for 2-+ cycles, or about 11k m-¦ worth of ore. With command support, you get even more out of those 30km, and you might even get more than 30km to get more out ofGǪ that's a lot of GÇ£more.GÇ¥
Quote:Numbers prove balance. Actually, most would argue that numbers prove imbalance. But that's besides the point: numbers do not determine balance GÇö they are not a factor in how two ships are balanced against each other. Instead, it's the opposite: the balance between two ships will influence which of the two you'll see in larger numbers.
Same goes for price: price is not a factor in determining how two ships are balanced against each other. Instead, it's the opposite: the balance between two ships will influence what the ships' respective prices will be. You cannot adjust the balance of a ship by adjusting its price, because people will happily pay that price to get the advantage (or, conversely, they will ignore a lousy ship no matter how cheap).
Quote:Hulk is an exception as (allready mentioned) there is just ONE high end mining ship. Not 4 (T3) or 12 (BS) different. Funnily enough, this thread, and many of the threads it has spawned, contains claims to the opposite: that there are actually two high-end mining ships and that the Hulk isn't really the more worth-while of the twoGǪ
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia can't admit this basic idea that ship cost in materials and SP is a form of balance Congratulations on missing the point completely. You are wrong, as always. The argument is that you cannot balance a ship with price because it doesn't actually stop anyone from getting the ship GÇö see above. Price is not a factor in balance because it doesn't actually balance out anything. No matter how high you price something to GÇ£balanceGÇ¥ its superior stats, people will obtain the resources required and start using it, and now you have something that is inherently unbalanced wreaking havoc in the game.
By the way, you still haven't been able to provide any specific argument that I have ignored. It's safe to say, at this point, that this is because you have none. Case closed.
Whitehound wrote:Yes, the numbers of players flying a ship or a ship class is very important for determining the balance. Ships do get changed when they are flown too often. GǪand it's still not the numbers that determine the balance. The numbers are an effect of the balance, and CCP (or more commonly the players) look at those numbers to infer that something is or isn't balanced about the ships. The imbalance is with the ships themselves. No matter how the numbers look, the balance is determined by the ships and their stats. No matter how the numbers change, unless the stats change, the balance isn't altered. Likewise, price does not determine balance GÇö if anything, balance determines price. High price is then also an effect of balance, not the other way around: balance is a factor in price; price is not a factor in balance. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
599
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:42:00 -
[565] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Congratulations on missing the point completely. You are wrong, as always. The argument is that you cannot balance a ship with price because it doesn't actually stop anyone from getting the ship GÇö see above. Price is not a factor in balance because it doesn't actually balance out anything. No matter how high you price something to GÇ£balanceGÇ¥ its superior stats, people will obtain the resources required and start using it, and now you have something that is inherently unbalanced wreaking havoc in the game.
You're the one missing the point because it is convenient for you to miss the point (read ignore) and blame others for your bull headedness.
Nothing new here, same old tactics. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:45:00 -
[566] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:You're the one missing the point because it is convenient for you to miss the point (read ignore) and blame others for your bull headedness. GǪand you're still unable to point out what's being missed.
You have been asked to prove your nonsense. You have been unable to do so. So proof or shush, puppet. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:46:00 -
[567] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:You're the one missing the point because it is convenient for you to miss the point (read ignore) and blame others for your bull headedness. GǪand you're still unable to point out what's being missed. You have been asked to prove your nonsense. You have been unable to do so. So proof or shush, puppet.
ROFL - you are so blind. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:47:00 -
[568] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:ROFL - you are so blind. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:50:00 -
[569] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:ROFL - you are so blind. Prove it.
That the argument came around again and you slobered all over it with your standard refrains proves it, little fish. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
417
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:50:00 -
[570] - Quote
Yo guys keep arguing, and I'll just keep mining in my tanked hulk while you guys lose yours to a thrasher. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6021
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:53:00 -
[571] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:That the argument came around again and you slobered all over it with your standard refrains proves it, little fish. Prove it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:54:00 -
[572] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:That the argument came around again and you slobered all over it with your standard refrains proves it, little fish. Prove it.
You are now a tool, congrats on such a fine accomplishment. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6022
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:55:00 -
[573] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote: You are now a tool, congrats on such a fine accomplishment. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:58:00 -
[574] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: You are now a tool, congrats on such a fine accomplishment. Prove it.
No thanks, you just did it for me. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:58:00 -
[575] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:
But what THEY expect to do is sit AFK and fatten their filthy wallets while rules lawyers bawl it up to CCP to protect the poor innocent tykes from the big bad wolf.
again, you can safely mission afk, whys it such a HUGE EVE sin to mine AFK? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Paragon Renegade
Wyvern Operations
335
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 01:59:00 -
[576] - Quote
Titans cost 60 billion ISK
Titans proceed to ruin "endgame" nullsec regardless because people obtain the advantage at any cost The pie is a tautology |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6022
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:00:00 -
[577] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:[still can't provide any argument] SoGǪ that argument you should be able to refer to, where is it? Why can't you actually provide it and prove something for a change?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:04:00 -
[578] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:[still can't provide any argument] SoGǪ that argument you should be able to refer to, where is it? Why can't you actually provide it and prove something for a change?
Go look around page 17-19 if you're so invested. It's your ego at stake, not mine. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:06:00 -
[579] - Quote
Grumpymunky wrote:You don't even need a super tank. Fit a 15-20k ehp hulk and mine beside the guy that fits his hulk with a civilian shield booster. Once he gets ganked, it's time to move.
ya you dont have to be the fastest
Just faster than the guy you trip
Wonder how much longer till ibtl since this thread's gone from the topic to individual fighting between the ppl IN the thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6024
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:18:00 -
[580] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Go look around page 17-19 That wasn't so hard, now was it?
Ok, let's seeGǪ
Page 17: I live in a box; you don't acknowledge bringing up the GÇ£gank proofGÇ¥ straw man GÇö no actual argument. Page 18: nothing. Page 19: capabilities do not reflect costs and survivability only make up for the shortfall (responded to GÇö numbers don't support the notion of a shortfall); weakness to new players devalues ship (responded to GÇö intentional design decision); crimewatch 2.0 might change things (responded to GÇö nah).
So what argument am I ignoring? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:24:00 -
[581] - Quote
Tippia wrote: So what argument am I ignoring?
If it was a dog, it would have sniffed you. Blind as stated. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:30:00 -
[582] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:If it was a dog, it would have sniffed you. Blind as stated. Prove it. What argument was I ignoring?
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote: So what argument am I ignoring?
If it was a dog, it would have sniffed you. Blind as stated.
see.... you guys really arent arguing over the topic anymore, just sniping back an forth
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:30:00 -
[583] - Quote
Ibn Taymiyyah wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Command ships can still be blapped by a small fleet of destroyers. Don't really care for the outcome of this discussion, but I'd like the see that small fleet of destroyers take down a command ship before concord arrives, as this is the point someone is making. 2/3 Destroyers taking down a 300mil ship in less time than concord needs to arrive.
I'd like to see a command ship mine 2500 m3/minute |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:31:00 -
[584] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:If it was a dog, it would have sniffed you. Blind as stated. Prove it. What argument was I ignoring? Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote: So what argument am I ignoring?
If it was a dog, it would have sniffed you. Blind as stated. see.... you guys really arent arguing over the topic anymore, just sniping back an forth
It's entertaining truthfully, wonder if they can turn this into a threadnaught by their views alone. -á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6025
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:36:00 -
[585] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:see.... you guys really arent arguing over the topic anymore, just sniping back an forth I'm trying to, but he can't provide the on-topic argument he supposedly made, which makes it very hard to respond to itGǪ vOv
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:36:00 -
[586] - Quote
Nylith Empyreal wrote:
It's entertaining truthfully, wonder if they can turn this into a threadnaught by their views alone.
No... 20 pages isnt a threadnaught
hell "what is the avatar above me thinking" is 80 something... WiS is 214... Hell the Mittani one was even longer
Tippia wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:see.... you guys really arent arguing over the topic anymore, just sniping back an forth I'm trying to, but he can't provide the on-topic argument he supposedly made, which makes it very hard to respond to itGǪ vOv
so if he wont do anything but drag it off topic, why encourage it. This thread has run its course and needs to go really.
I put in a ticket to CCP but Im just High sec dweller # 294478347846 so I dont expect to be listened to really lol https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
600
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:43:00 -
[587] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I'm trying to, but he can't provide the on-topic argument he supposedly made, which makes it very hard to respond to itGǪ vOv
I did, you missed it, Someone else did as well, you ignored it again. Get over it. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:44:00 -
[588] - Quote
looks like the thread restarted here:
go here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:45:00 -
[589] - Quote
wow look at this, a 42k ehp hulk
http://i.imgur.com/2kY32.jpg |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
277
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:46:00 -
[590] - Quote
huh 400 000 million isk to get 40 k ehp which can be ganked by 4 tornadoes which cost half the price of the hulk... cool beans man... |
|
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:49:00 -
[591] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:huh 400 000 million isk to get 40 k ehp which can be ganked by 4 tornadoes which cost half the price of the hulk... cool beans man...
okay
would the gankers go after your 40k ehp hulk or the paper tanked hulk with a civilian shield booster next to you? obviously the latter
would they even USE four tornadoes on you? nope |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:50:00 -
[592] - Quote
also I have a solution for evading artillery ganks
orbit a can |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:50:00 -
[593] - Quote
doesnt anything under 50k still die to a dessie? Cause I saw something earlier Tippia put up about a 50k something else earlier and said it could still die to them https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:51:00 -
[594] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:doesnt anything under 50k still die to a dessie? Cause I saw something earlier Tippia put up about a 50k something else earlier and said it could still die to them
pack ECM drones |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:02:00 -
[595] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:doesnt anything under 50k still die to a dessie? Cause I saw something earlier Tippia put up about a 50k something else earlier and said it could still die to them pack ECM drones
ecm on a hulk?
you dont wanna mine anymore huh lol
Or is this devolving to the screw what the ship is made for lets just survive stage? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:04:00 -
[596] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Or is this devolving to the screw what the ship is made for lets just survive stage?
Yes, it's called "adapting." |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6025
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:04:00 -
[597] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:I did, you missed it Prove it.
Kengutsi Akira wrote:doesnt anything under 50k still die to a dessie? Cause I saw something earlier Tippia put up about a 50k something else earlier and said it could still die to them No, that was the silly-CS, which would die to a bunch of dessies. My general rule of thumb is 700 DPS from a gank dessie; so you need about 7k EHP for every 10s of CONCORD not being there (20k+ or so in 0.5). Tier-3 BCs and BSes will most likely use alpha, making sec level less of a factor GÇö 30k EHP or so should make you fairly safe from a single ship.
Yes. Why not? That should let you survive maybe one more destroyer on average than you otherwise would. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:07:00 -
[598] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Or is this devolving to the screw what the ship is made for lets just survive stage? Yes, it's called "adapting."
k, adapt to "maximum mining AND survival"
come up with that you win lol
Yes. Why not? That should let you survive maybe one more destroyer on average than you otherwise would.[/quote]
I think this is where we deadlock on the same argument thats come up for the last 28 pages. You tank it and you get the yield of a Covetor or thats what everyone says. IVE never lost a Hulk and DONT tank it cause I PERSONALLY dont mine where there are people. OR when hulkageddon is on. So I havent ever had an issue. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:08:00 -
[599] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Or is this devolving to the screw what the ship is made for lets just survive stage? Yes, it's called "adapting." k, adapt to "maximum mining AND survival"
EVE is about making choices. You can't have it both ways - fit to survive, or fit for maximum yield. Not both. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:11:00 -
[600] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Or is this devolving to the screw what the ship is made for lets just survive stage? Yes, it's called "adapting." k, adapt to "maximum mining AND survival" EVE is about making choices. You can't have it both ways - fit to survive, or fit for maximum yield. Not both.
again... or dont mine where there are people AND fit for maximum yield.
(yeah I dont mine on the gyu I use on forums so locators dont help with that track record lol)
I actually DONT think the Hulk needs a buff. Ive used it for the better part of two years, untanked, maximum yield. DONT sit AFK BE ALIGNED DONT BE STUPID
and you dont lose them is what Ive learned from my time in EVE lol https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
|
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:12:00 -
[601] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lanasak wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:Or is this devolving to the screw what the ship is made for lets just survive stage? Yes, it's called "adapting." k, adapt to "maximum mining AND survival" EVE is about making choices. You can't have it both ways - fit to survive, or fit for maximum yield. Not both. again... or dont mine where there are people.
If you choose to mine somewhere out of the way with a max-yield fit Hulk, at the expense of having to fly a longer route to get your ore/minerals to market, that's another valid choice. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:14:00 -
[602] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:
If you choose to mine somewhere out of the way with a max-yield fit Hulk, at the expense of having to fly a longer route to get your ore/minerals to market, that's another valid choice.
I dont have that issue either
where ARE you mining O.o https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:16:00 -
[603] - Quote
I don't mine, and if I did, I wouldn't mine in highsec like pond scum |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
521
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:17:00 -
[604] - Quote
I go back and forth about mining barges. They can't fit a tank worth a damn without decimating their productivity in an already economically disadvantaged profession.
It really comes down to if the hulk is made tougher, the baddies will just bring more to kill it just as quick as before. Maybe barges don't need tanks, but rather need to be more mobile to accomplish what it is they're built to do.
But, whatever, if you're getting ganked in null, maybe you should look at local every once in a while? I mean, really, there is absolutely no reason that you should be getting ganked with such a perfect intel tool. It ain't like w-space where someone probed out your grav sites 2 days ago and warped cloaked to you without ever being seen on dscan. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:18:00 -
[605] - Quote
if somebody probed out your grav sites two days ago they wouldn't be there today |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:19:00 -
[606] - Quote
Hum fully bonused Orca and fully bonused Tengu to pull that off. Once CCP gets rid of off grid boosting that will probably protect the Hulk, most gankers are much more likely to go for the Tengu first for the tears and SP loss. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:19:00 -
[607] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:I They can't fit a tank worth a damn without decimating their productivity
it's almost as if you have to make choices!
please make the game easier for my simple mind, CCP |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:20:00 -
[608] - Quote
look around first, not just plopping youself into the first belt you come across dont be stupid about it
Doing your homework, scout the system, use the resources you have available... dotlan for one. See how many people are in the system regularly before you even GO to the system.
OR Talking to friends/corp and getting a freighter/Orca in system. WE usually get freighters in system and run them weekly/monthly to a hub. OR I use my hauler alt to bring the ore to a hub WHILE Im mining in my untanked max yield Hulk lol That way youre in a deserted system AND have access to a hub
Ive never even HAD a gank attempt on me (knock on wood)
Funnily, my friend, the day he got his hulk, undocked it and someone tried and failed to gank his untanked Hulk right at the station
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:20:00 -
[609] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Hum fully bonused Orca and fully bonused Tengu to pull that off. Once CCP gets rid of off grid boosting that will probably protect the Hulk, most gankers are much more likely to go for the Tengu first for the tears and SP loss.
nobody suicide ganks a Tengu unless it has worthwhile fittings fyi
and if that becomes an issue they'd just boost on grid with brick-tanked Vultures |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:20:00 -
[610] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:I don't mine, and if I did, I wouldn't mine in highsec like pond scum
Many players feel the same way you do. This is why low end mineral prices are increasing. |
|
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:22:00 -
[611] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Hum fully bonused Orca and fully bonused Tengu to pull that off. Once CCP gets rid of off grid boosting that will probably protect the Hulk, most gankers are much more likely to go for the Tengu first for the tears and SP loss. nobody suicide ganks a Tengu unless it has worthwhile fittings fyi and if that becomes an issue they'd just boost on grid with brick-tanked Vultures
So to get all this to work you need at least three accounts to run one hulk? Somehow I do not think the bulk of the 20-40 billion units of trit that are sold in Jita every day is going to come from such a process. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:22:00 -
[612] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Lanasak wrote:I don't mine, and if I did, I wouldn't mine in highsec like pond scum Many players feel the same way you do. This is why low end mineral prices are increasing. no, minerals are going up across the board because of traders speculating on the imminent rogue drone nerf |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:23:00 -
[613] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Lanasak wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Hum fully bonused Orca and fully bonused Tengu to pull that off. Once CCP gets rid of off grid boosting that will probably protect the Hulk, most gankers are much more likely to go for the Tengu first for the tears and SP loss. nobody suicide ganks a Tengu unless it has worthwhile fittings fyi and if that becomes an issue they'd just boost on grid with brick-tanked Vultures So to get all this to work you need at least three accounts to run one hulk? Somehow I do not think the bulk of the 20-40 billion units of trit that are sold in Jita every day is going to come from such a process.
If only EVE was a multiplayer game |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:24:00 -
[614] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Lanasak wrote:I don't mine, and if I did, I wouldn't mine in highsec like pond scum Many players feel the same way you do. This is why low end mineral prices are increasing. no, minerals are going up across the board because of traders speculating on the imminent rogue drone nerf
and the banning of bots lol https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
391
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:31:00 -
[615] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:
If only EVE was a multiplayer game
funny thing about that is thats HOW we mine in untanked Hulks and dont get killed lol multiplayer. People to haul for us, multiple hulks and multiple people.
lol youd think youd be agreeing with us for actually playing it LIKE a multiplayer game rather than trolling and calling us names https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:36:00 -
[616] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Lanasak wrote:
If only EVE was a multiplayer game
funny thing about that is thats HOW we mine in untanked Hulks and dont get killed lol multiplayer. People to haul for us, multiple hulks and multiple people. lol youd think youd be agreeing with us for actually playing it LIKE a multiplayer game rather than trolling and calling us names
look at you missing the point |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
278
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:51:00 -
[617] - Quote
i remember back in 06 before drone regions were opened up....
back then i was in GW in a corp living it up ratting and all that stuff... if you wanted a ship made like a domi or something you had to get together with your mining buddies so that they could get enough mins together to eventually make you the bs...
that being said mining ops were usually me ratting in my brutix and from time to time my friend in the hulk would sound off in corp chat yo i am being attacked help in p1-b7 then i would warp to the belt and kill the impending rats...
more then often the guy would choose an easy spawn to tank so he could rat in peace...
this was just after the great hp boost which at the time pretty much killed alpha arty boats and all minnie were good for was nano/autos aka nano phoon and the nefarious nano vagabond (this was before tier two bc's)
but with the subsequent boosts to alpha and such this mitigated the hp boost and made it mute...
even before bots were so prevalent... peeps would semi aft mining... most watching movies and what not... mining is not fun and if you think its fun there is something mentally wrong with you!
the game has changed and having an lse on a hulk is desperately needed especially since there is going to be the drone poo nerf...
you will now have to mine to get mins...
the hulk needs a pg boost so it can fit only one LSE
and there needs to be the 5th subsystems (indy/mining based) added to tech III ships...
make one that allows gas/ice/strip miners and give them a bonus make one that has similar bonus to an orca for links make one that increases cargo bay like an industrial not sure about the propulsion one...
what this will allow you to do is mix and match different subsections to make pretty nice minning ships...
i think the proteus would be king but hey gallente should be king of minning eh?
think about it people you will now have to mine to get mins... plain and simple and remember CCP made drone regions combat mining in the fist place cuss regular mining in mind dull **** boring... there is a reason bots were invented in the first place....
all i am saying is that in the new reality of eve where you have to mine dont you want a. a 350 million isk ship to have a decent tank if its design is meant to be used semi afk
and b. a kick ass tech III subsection that will at the very least give you the same protection that you receive from doing missions in a pve ship...
i think tippa has it wrong there are pve ships in eve and pvp ships in eve it just so happens that half the pve ships in eve are also pvp ships... this should not mean that the other half of pve ships should be totally vulnerable or if are tanked loose out on the bonuses they have and should have for being the most expensive mining ship in game...
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
392
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:55:00 -
[618] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:
even before bots were so prevalent... peeps would semi aft mining... most watching movies and what not... mining is not fun and if you think its fun there is something mentally wrong with you!
lol so the anti buff ppl are saying we should have to be mentally disturbed to mine cause otherwise we should die (unless you heed the suggestions I gave)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
278
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 03:56:00 -
[619] - Quote
did you play the game before drone regions were introduced? |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
392
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 04:00:00 -
[620] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:did you play the game before drone regions were introduced?
an my bad didnt know you were ONLY talking about back then and your statements were irrelevant to the game as it is today. kk
and btw train sense of humor to 5 it helps in discerning a joke when you see it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
278
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 04:07:00 -
[621] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:MeBiatch wrote:did you play the game before drone regions were introduced? an my bad didnt know you were ONLY talking about back then and your statements were irrelevant to the game as it is today. kk and btw train sense of humor to 5 it helps in discerning a joke when you see it.
indeed i read that over and it was funny... but alas there is no font on the Internets for humor so sometimes complex ideas such as sarcasm can be taken as a serious statement... my apologies...
but its more in reference to a different eve that sans combat mining will return in an interesting way... most people don't really get what removing combat mining means to eve... which makes my comment rather relevant if you think about it...
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
392
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 04:09:00 -
[622] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:MeBiatch wrote:did you play the game before drone regions were introduced? an my bad didnt know you were ONLY talking about back then and your statements were irrelevant to the game as it is today. kk and btw train sense of humor to 5 it helps in discerning a joke when you see it. indeed i read that over and it was funny... but alas there is no font on the Internets for humor so sometimes complex ideas such as sarcasm can be taken as a serious statement... my apologies... but its more in reference to a different eve that sans combat mining will return in an interesting way... most people don't really get what removing combat mining means to eve... which makes my comment rather relevant if you think about it...
I was trying for a "o gods theyre trying to drive us insane!!!!oneone!!" type joke lol
Im too tired to be rational. In fact Im going to bed lol https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 04:34:00 -
[623] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Lanasak wrote:I don't mine, and if I did, I wouldn't mine in highsec like pond scum Many players feel the same way you do. This is why low end mineral prices are increasing. no, minerals are going up across the board because of traders speculating on the imminent rogue drone nerf
Um no. Yeah on Zydrine or Nocx they are. On any given day Jita runs through between 20 and 40 BILLION units of trit. There are some bit wallets out there but trit is almost the definition of a spammed commodity. There is just to much of it being traded for traders to make a dent in the market.
Sorry to say it, but that mineral is going up because of a legitimate shortage, not speculation.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
543
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 07:03:00 -
[624] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:
If you choose to mine somewhere out of the way with a max-yield fit Hulk, at the expense of having to fly a longer route to get your ore/minerals to market, that's another valid choice.
The 30 jumps I self haul 1 freigther worth of minerals are FREE!
Oh wait, that's what noobs say when they consider their time free. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
543
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 07:15:00 -
[625] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Lanasak wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Hum fully bonused Orca and fully bonused Tengu to pull that off. Once CCP gets rid of off grid boosting that will probably protect the Hulk, most gankers are much more likely to go for the Tengu first for the tears and SP loss. nobody suicide ganks a Tengu unless it has worthwhile fittings fyi and if that becomes an issue they'd just boost on grid with brick-tanked Vultures So to get all this to work you need at least three accounts to run one hulk? Somehow I do not think the bulk of the 20-40 billion units of trit that are sold in Jita every day is going to come from such a process.
It's the poopy thread. Maybe if he thought that a yield of say 15M per hour has to be divided by the number of accounts used... But no.
Jas Dor wrote: Sorry to say it, but that mineral is going up because of a legitimate shortage, not speculation.
Trit is being speculated too, but speculations only amplify an underlying shortage. They don't last weeks when they are just artifiically created, expecially in large markets like Trit. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 07:43:00 -
[626] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand it's still not the numbers that determine the balance. The numbers are an effect of the balance, and CCP (or more commonly the players) look at those numbers to infer that something is or isn't balanced about the ships. The imbalance is with the ships themselves. No matter how the numbers look, the balance is determined by the ships and their stats. No matter how the numbers change, unless the stats change, the balance isn't altered. Likewise, price does not determine balance GÇö if anything, balance determines price. High price is then also an effect of balance, not the other way around: balance is a factor in price; price is not a factor in balance. For you it is not about the numbers of players. It is not only obvious from what you write but also how you write. You have no love for the people on this forum and so you have no choice but to deny it. For CCP, who are the ones doing the changes, is EVE Online only a game and Internet space ships are just Internet space ships to them. The players mean the world to CCP and it will always be important to them what the players think of their game. To them do the numbers of players matter. |
Ender Karazaki
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 07:45:00 -
[627] - Quote
Mining has problems on every level of this game. The ships are weak, slow, vulnerable and are targets for gankers. Mineral prices are errattic and to top it of, it's dull as dishwater. It's bereft of any real gameplay or any redeaming features. Even in a fleet with friends it gets boring, especially when we run out of dead baby jokes. To be frank, if CCP decided to get rid of mining altoghether I wouldn't be sorry to see it go. The fact that the only thing that makes mining bearable for most folk is that it can be done AFK says it all
I am however more more interested in the ring mining that CCP has proposed (making mining a group activity) and would like to see something like that expanded into belt mining. They probably won't, it seems CCP has seemingly given up on mining by stating things like "mining is what it is". But IMO with the right gameplay mechanics and features, mining can be made fun, profitable and more of a challenge. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 08:31:00 -
[628] - Quote
Hulks can get 22k ehp
that's enough to deter most solo gankers....no ship should be immune to multiple gankers
|
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
202
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 08:56:00 -
[629] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Hulks can get 22k ehp
that's enough to deter most solo gankers....no ship should be immune to multiple gankers
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all? UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
baltec1
1076
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 09:09:00 -
[630] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient. |
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Whitehound
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 09:48:00 -
[631] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient. You almost make it sound fun. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
543
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 10:11:00 -
[632] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient.
You still risk losing the Hulk while it's permanently gimped.
You still get an insurance zero cost on losing the covetor while it's maxed.
Result: always zero cost for covetor, still risk to get the hulk dead to somebody more motivated to pop it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 10:31:00 -
[633] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You still risk losing the Hulk while it's permanently gimped.
You still get an insurance zero cost on losing the covetor while it's maxed.
Result: always zero cost for covetor, still risk to get the hulk dead to somebody more motivated to pop it.
Losing a t2 fitted covetor is never free.
In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. That only happens in hulkageddon or in an ice interdiction. So while destroyers pop your covetors for profit I will be in a hulk safe from all but the most extream ganks making more money than you. |
Shadowsword
The Scope Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 10:51:00 -
[634] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes.
Shouldn't the gankers have time for at least two arty salvoes before concord show up in a 0.5 or 0.6? |
baltec1
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 11:06:00 -
[635] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote:baltec1 wrote:In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. Shouldn't the gankers have time for at least two arty salvoes before concord show up in a 0.5 or 0.6?
The joys of 0.7 space. |
Whitehound
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 11:08:00 -
[636] - Quote
Shadowsword wrote:baltec1 wrote:In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. Shouldn't the gankers have time for at least two arty salvoes before concord show up in a 0.5 or 0.6? Not only that, but you would use EMP L to pop his Hulk. Baltec1 will fit his Hulk with 3 Inv. Fields II and an SSE II. He will go mining like this for a few days until he realizes how boring mining is. So he will drop an Inv. Field and put a survey scanner back into his Hulk so that he can at least see which asteroids to pick. He then will continue mining for another few days until he gets sick of constantly docking up and because his cargohold just does not do it. He then puts cargo expanders into his low-slots so that he can stay in the belt a little longer.
Can one blame him for doing it? No. But one can slap him every single time he tries to get a bit more fun out of his mining ship.
I can laugh about it, but I cannot call it fair. |
baltec1
1079
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 11:14:00 -
[637] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Shadowsword wrote:baltec1 wrote:In order to kill a hulk like how I would fit them would require 4 t2 arty Tornadoes. Shouldn't the gankers have time for at least two arty salvoes before concord show up in a 0.5 or 0.6? Not only that, but you would use EMP L to pop his Hulk. Baltec1 will fit his Hulk with 3 Inv. Fields II and an SSE II. He will go mining like this for a few days until he realizes how boring mining is. So he will drop an Inv. Field and put a survey scanner back into his Hulk so that he can at least see which asteroids to pick. He then will continue mining for another few days until he gets sick of constantly docking up and because his cargohold just does not do it. He then puts cargo expanders into his low-slots so that he can stay in the belt a little longer. Can one blame him for doing it? No. But one can slap him every single time he tries to get a bit more fun out of his mining ship. I can laugh about it, but I cannot call it fair.
Silly nonsence. I mine while I mine in minecraft so I don't get bored
Also I go for 1 MSE, 2x invuln, an EM resist amp, DCU II, sheild expander rigs and implants. |
Severian Carnifex
167
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 11:29:00 -
[638] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Ildryn wrote:Hulks can get 22k ehp
that's enough to deter most solo gankers....no ship should be immune to multiple gankers
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
You know that that is one Tornado with 2 shots. And they can do it almost everywhere in Hi-sec. So you are killed by one ship and you ****** your mining yield - nice one. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
138
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 12:49:00 -
[639] - Quote
At the end the Hulk is made for 00 or lowsec with intel and a local as pre warning.
What is needed is a high end highsec mining ship which can handle the today playstlye of suizid ganking which was no topic when the Hulk was released! Sure, it did happened back in 200x. But it wasn't that common as it is today.
The Hulk is outdated. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6033
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 12:55:00 -
[640] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:For you it is not about the numbers of players. It is not only obvious from what you write but also how you write. You have no love for the people on this forum and so you have no choice but to deny it. For CCP, who are the ones doing the changes, is EVE Online only a game and Internet space ships are just Internet space ships to them. The players mean the world to CCP and it will always be important to them what the players think of their game. To them do the numbers of players matter. Very passionate. Also ridiculously off-topic and very wrong in pretty much every way imaginable.
It still doesn't make numbers a factor in balance. You don't set the stats on a ship based on how many will be used in an engagement because you cannot know or control that GÇö it's infinitely variable, and the usage number is determined by the balance, so you'd enter an uncontrollable feedback loop. It's very simple GÇö see if you can follow:
If numbers were a factor in balance, the reasoning would go like this:
GÇ£We know that only one ship of this type will be used for every 100 players in a fleet. We will therefore make it very powerful so that it balances out that small number. Commonness 1/n GåÆ power factor n.GÇ¥
Obviously, this is a completely backwards way of balancing ships, and no-one in their right mind does that for the simple reason that it doesn't work: what will happen is that, instead of 1/100 players using that 100:1 power ratio ship, all one hundred players will use it because the GÇ£numbers balanceGÇ¥ has decided that it needs to be overpowered to counterbalance its low usage. Congratulations GÇö instant imbalanced ships in instantly imbalanced numbers.
Same goes for cost. If cost was a factor in balance, the reasoning would be:
GÇ£We have set the price for +£berRokh to 50bn ISK. This means we have to make it very powerful to balance out that high cost, so let's set the power factor to 9001GÇ¥GǪ and we all know where that reasoning leads and the balancing headache it causes (simply because you can't use cost to counterbalance power that way GÇö it just doesn't work).
Instead, you do the opposite: GÇ£HmmGǪ the +£berRokh isn't being used even though we think it's totally sweet. Maybe if we adjust the price, people will think it's a bit more worth-while. Oh wow! Look, it worked, yay!GÇ¥
Jojo Jackson wrote:At the end the Hulk is made for 00 or lowsec with intel and a local as pre warning.
What is needed is a high end highsec mining ship which can handle the today playstlye of suizid ganking which was no topic when the Hulk was released! Sure, it did happened back in 200x. But it wasn't that common as it is today.
The Hulk is outdated. GǪor maybe it's just being misused. It's not so much outdated as just horribly mistreated (e.g. it's commonly not fitted with a proper tank). It's like people going from HACs to HICs for their L4s because GÇ£hey, it's a T2 cruiser that tanks even more, so it should be even betterGÇ¥ GÇö never mind that its purpose is something drastically different for a completely different and for a different region of space entirely.
In factGǪ I'll see if I can find that old F&I post where this was discussedGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 13:14:00 -
[641] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:[quote=baltec1]
When one needs to pimp a Hulk to the point where it costs like 500m ISKs only to have 28k eHP then you have not made an argument for the Hulk or against the Covetor. You have made it an argument to gank more Hulks.
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hey look, 28k EHP, T2 Strips and a Survey Scanner, also
[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
32+k EHP, yeah, clearly both ships are extremely pimped with there T2/Meta lvl Fittings |
Whitehound
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 13:16:00 -
[642] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:For you it is not about the numbers of players. It is not only obvious from what you write but also how you write. You have no love for the people on this forum and so you have no choice but to deny it. For CCP, who are the ones doing the changes, is EVE Online only a game and Internet space ships are just Internet space ships to them. The players mean the world to CCP and it will always be important to them what the players think of their game. To them do the numbers of players matter. Very passionate. Also ridiculously off-topic and very wrong in pretty much every way imaginable. It is how CCP are. They will not care about what you think is good for their game's balance. You can argue about it or deny it as long as you want. It is not going to change them. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6033
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 13:25:00 -
[643] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:It is how CCP are. No. It may have been how they were back when they invented Titans, but they have since learned that numbers (and cost) isn't a factor in balance for the reasons I described.
Would you like to actually address the point or just invent more nonsense claims about CCP?
Quote:It is not going to change them. So that's why they have never used this flawed reasoning ever since? Wait, that doesn't make sense GÇö that would mean they have changed, after all, so that would make you wrong. Imagine that.
Anyway, found it:
-+ Massively nerf the Hulk's tank, to the point where highsec rats actually become dangerous. -+ Introduce a fourth-tier barge and exhumer (requiring skill level V, now that the Covetor will only require IV) that is restricted to null/low-sec. -+ Give the new barge and exhumer a whopping big tank to suit their harsh environment. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 13:29:00 -
[644] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:... Hey look, 28k EHP, T2 Strips and a Survey Scanner, also ... 32+k EHP, yeah, clearly both ships are extremely pimped with there T2/Meta lvl Fittings The cynicism is nice, but it does not quite work when these ships still cost you 400m ISKs. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
217
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:03:00 -
[645] - Quote
I fit my usual Hulk for yield and cargo space with a roid scanner.
I've never once been ganked, because I mine at the keyboard and watch local and even use the d-scanner to keep an eye on things around me. I'll take that risk because tanking a Hulk at the expense of efficiency when you are doing something that disgustingly boring is a waste of time to me.
If I get ganked, that's my fault, and I accept that. |
Whitehound
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:08:00 -
[646] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. It may have been how they were back when they invented Titans, but they have since learned that numbers (and cost) isn't a factor in balance for the reasons I described.
Would you like to actually address the point or just invent more nonsense claims about CCP? ... I see you having hopes and opinions and that you are now turning ugly towards CCP, yet I still do not see you having a point.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6036
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:14:00 -
[647] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I see you having hopes and opinions and that you are now turning ugly towards CCP No, I have high opinions of their balancing effort because I know they don't foolishly believe that numbers or cost are factors in balance.
Quote:yet I still do not see you having a point. Try reading. Argue the points made there, which explain why cost and numbers are not factors in balance. Any attempt avoidance on your part will mean that you cannot because you know full well that I'm right and you're just trolling.
The facts remains: no, cost is not a factor in balance; no, numbers is not a factor in balance; no, CCP are not using either in their balancing effort; and no, you cannot provide any proof that they do.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Oxylan
1 Caldaryjski Pluton Uderzeniowy
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:23:00 -
[648] - Quote
Guys belive me or not but curple months ago i use badger mk2 as bait vs kamikaze on gates, i use invuls + em resist in low slots dcu + some PDS, my bait badger mk2 was abble to survive atack form 2x armagedon + sentry drones, and this ship cost me max 7-8mil isk for t2 modules and t1 rigs, i cant understand why ship worth actualy 330mil cant stand to curple t1 fited derstroyers or even cant survive one tornado, crazy... If it bleed we can kill it. |
Whitehound
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:24:00 -
[649] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:I see you having hopes and opinions and that you are now turning ugly towards CCP No, I have high opinions of their balancing effort because I know they don't foolishly believe that numbers or cost are factors in balance. I'm turning ugly towards you because you keep on lying and making a fool of yourself with your endless stream of unproven claims, nonsensical statements, idiocy and fallacies. Quote:yet I still do not see you having a point. Try reading. Argue the points made there, which explain why cost and numbers are not factors in balance. Any attempt avoidance on your part will mean that you cannot because you know full well that I'm right and you're just trolling. The facts remains: no, cost is not a factor in balance; no, numbers is not a factor in balance; no, CCP are not using either in their balancing effort; and no, you cannot provide any proof that they do. I do not need to read what you write, Tippia. I do know you have your opinions. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
181
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:28:00 -
[650] - Quote
Whitehound,
Stop embarrassing yourself.
|
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6037
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:33:00 -
[651] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I do not need to read what you write Thank you. That means you agree with what I said and you're just trolling. That's all we needed to know.
So yes, as Whitehound have just confirmed: cost and numbers are indeed not factors in balance for the reasons I previously explained, and CCP are intelligent enough to know this.
Thank you for your support, even if it was hard to squeeze out of you. I know you hate to agree with me, but I also know that you have to, because, after all, even you can't argue against hard facts.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
392
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:34:00 -
[652] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient.
yes but you can replace said covetor in no time so it doesnt matter....
just playing devil's advocate, I never tank my hulk and have never been killed OR attempted a gank on. Then again I mine where there arent ever people and when ppl show up, I move on to a system where there arent people lol
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Whitehound
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:50:00 -
[653] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:I do not need to read what you write Thank you. That means you agree with what I said and you're just trolling. That's all we needed to know. So yes, as Whitehound have just confirmed: cost and numbers are indeed not factors in balance for the reasons I previously explained, and CCP are intelligent enough to know this. Thank you for your support, even if it was hard to squeeze out of you. I know you hate to agree with me, but I also know that you have to, because, after all, even you can't argue against hard facts. No, it does not mean that I agree with you. It means that I will not read any more of your ugly comments. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1506
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 14:50:00 -
[654] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:I do not need to read what you write Thank you. That means you agree with what I said and you're just trolling. That's all we needed to know. So yes, as Whitehound have just confirmed: cost and numbers are indeed not factors in balance for the reasons I previously explained, and CCP are intelligent enough to know this. Thank you for your support, even if it was hard to squeeze out of you. I know you hate to agree with me, but I also know that you have to, because, after all, even you can't argue against hard facts.
Yeah, I missed the last few pages of this particular debate.
When Caps and then Super Caps were introduced CCP learned, and publicly announced, that they err'ed in their belief that cost would make an effiective balancing point.
This is why those ships, super caps in particular, have been scaled back in capability repeatedly since that point. CCP believed that their high cost would ensure that they never became numerous in game, that cost would balance their extreme effectiveness.
Now we have thousands of super caps in game, and they are a serious issue that is still being sorted out.
People proved that you cannot balance a ship via it's cost, as if it's effective at what it does people WILL come up with the ISK regardless of how rediculous the price is... and you will end up with tons of "unbalanced" ships in the game.
CCP pointed this out pretty clearly, and has reinterated the point several times since then. I'm really not sure why this debate is still going on. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6038
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:02:00 -
[655] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I agree with you. We know. You said so very clearly, and I thank you for your support.
Well, still assuming, of course, that you're not just trolling.
But as Ranger 1 shows in his brief historical overview, CCP has long since learned that numbers and cost are not balancing factors GÇö quite the opposite: they're things that are affected by the balance. You cannot change the cause by fiddling with the consequence, so they haven't tried doing that for years. Instead, they simply adjust the balance, and then see how this changes the numbers and costs. It may occasionally turn out that the numbers and costs are being limited (eg. the moon goo bottlenecks) or moving in undesirable directions (eg. the unpopularity of the Covetor), so they adjust those to let the numbers and costs better reach their GÇ£trueGÇ¥ values. Those changes don't affect the balance, though.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
393
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:04:00 -
[656] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:I do not need to read what you write Thank you. That means you agree with what I said and you're just trolling. That's all we needed to know. So yes, as Whitehound have just confirmed: cost and numbers are indeed not factors in balance for the reasons I previously explained, and CCP are intelligent enough to know this. Thank you for your support, even if it was hard to squeeze out of you. I know you hate to agree with me, but I also know that you have to, because, after all, even you can't argue against hard facts. Yeah, I missed the last few pages of this particular debate. When Caps and then Super Caps were introduced CCP learned, and publicly announced, that they err'ed in their belief that cost would make an effiective balancing point. This is why those ships, super caps in particular, have been scaled back in capability repeatedly since that point. CCP believed that their high cost would ensure that they never became numerous in game, that cost would balance their extreme effectiveness. Now we have thousands of super caps in game, and they are a serious issue that is still being sorted out. People proved that you cannot balance a ship via it's cost, as if it's effective at what it does people WILL come up with the ISK regardless of how rediculous the price is... and you will end up with tons of "unbalanced" ships in the game. CCP pointed this out pretty clearly, and has reinterated the point several times since then. I'm really not sure why this debate is still going on.
well yeah... you have a game with essentially unlimited resources at your hands, all you have to worry about is time to make it (and in 0.0 tech moon terms just unlimited funds) cost as a balancing factor becomes moot
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:16:00 -
[657] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No, it does not mean that I agree with you. It means that I will not read any more of your ugly comments.
Hide posts, problem solved |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
521
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:20:00 -
[658] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:if somebody probed out your grav sites two days ago they wouldn't be there today
You obviously haven't been in w-space much, have you? We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1508
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:31:00 -
[659] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:. However, since in this case Tip is merely relaying inconvenient facts (from your point of view), that would be more a case of sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "La la la la la".
Since Tippia is well known for ignoring any argument that it doesn't like, turn around is fair play. *shrugs*
Offering direct refutation and logical arguments is not "ignoring the argument".
Tippia and I often do not see eye to eye, however arguing a well considered point of view in detail is not trolling, it's called discussion. Even when we dissagree I listen to Tippia's point of view because he/she often has strong reasons to believe that way... even if I don't always agree with those reasons. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
543
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:33:00 -
[660] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:I fit my usual Hulk for yield and cargo space with a roid scanner.
I've never once been ganked, because I mine at the keyboard and watch local and even use the d-scanner to keep an eye on things around me. I'll take that risk because tanking a Hulk at the expense of efficiency when you are doing something that disgustingly boring is a waste of time to me.
If I get ganked, that's my fault, and I accept that.
Real miner spotted. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Testerxnot Sheepherder
DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew
47
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:33:00 -
[661] - Quote
Tippia should just gtfo of this thread and go back to ganking defenseless hulks ingame. |
Whitehound
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:35:00 -
[662] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:well yeah... you have a game with essentially unlimited resources at your hands, all you have to worry about is time to make it (and in 0.0 tech moon terms just unlimited funds) cost as a balancing factor becomes moot Every single factor can become moot when you give it enough time. It is because time itself is a part of the balance and when you allow time to grow limitless then it will unbalance any other factor.
Cost remains a factor in balance. If it was not then we could change all bills of materials into 1 Tritanium. This is not going to work. To believe cost alone can solve any issues was the mistake. CCP keeps working on caps and not because they did not set the prices high enough, but because many of factors still need to be balanced. You would not want CCP to fix a balance issue by removing 99% of a ship's hull or by adding 10 times more DPS either. The risk for a change to throw the balance off the other end is too high. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:43:00 -
[663] - Quote
Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote:Tippia should just gtfo of this thread and go back to ganking defenseless hulks ingame. GǪand you should learn what GÇ£go back toGÇ¥ means. You can't go back to doing something you've never done GÇö the word you're looking for is GÇ£startGÇ¥. Also, I see no reason why I should start ganking Hulks GÇö I don't have any of the BPOs to make it really profitable.
Whitehound wrote:Cost remains a factor in balance. GǪexcept that it's not used to balance ships, because it cannot be used that way for the reasons explained (the reasons you agree with and cannot argue). That's why CCP aren't using cost that way (which is why you haven't been able to show them doing it).
You're confusing balance and numbers. Cost is a factor in the latter, not the former. Balance is also a factor in the latter, both directly and indirectly through the mechanic of cost. Either way, the effect goes one way (even though it splits up), and not the other, so cost does not factor into the balance of the ship. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1509
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:46:00 -
[664] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Kengutsi Akira wrote:well yeah... you have a game with essentially unlimited resources at your hands, all you have to worry about is time to make it (and in 0.0 tech moon terms just unlimited funds) cost as a balancing factor becomes moot Every single factor can become moot when you give it enough time. It is because time itself is a part of the balance and when you allow time to grow limitless then it will unbalance any other factor. Cost remains a factor in balance. If it was not then we could change all bills of materials into 1 Tritanium. This is not going to work. To believe cost alone can solve any issues was the mistake. CCP keeps working on caps and not because they did not set the prices high enough, but because many of factors still need to be balanced. You would not want CCP to fix a balance issue by removing 99% of a ship's hull or by adding 10 times more DPS either. The risk for a change to throw the balance off the other end is too high.
Since ISK in game is virtually limitless for many, yes, I'd prefer they "balance" an unbalanced ship by fixing what is out of whack. Of course this verges into discussions of asymetrical balance which is far beyond the level of this thread currently.
EVE has proven time and again that people will pay exhorbitant fee's for even a slight advantage over their competition. Indeed the popularity of the Hulk despite its relatively minor performance advantages over other alternatives is a shining case of this. Look at any high priced Pirate faction or Navy issue ship, with advantages often as slim as 5% over competetive vessels, for further confirmation.
You will have a case for needing to buff the Hulk when sales drop off sharply in favor of cheaper alternatives, not before. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
985
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:53:00 -
[665] - Quote
Mining is already looking to be a lot more profitable now more than ever, stop begging for a buff and learn how to tank your ships. |
Testerxnot Sheepherder
DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew
47
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:53:00 -
[666] - Quote
Tippia wrote: You're confusing balance and numbers. Cost is a factor in the latter, not the former. Balance is also a factor in the latter, both directly and indirectly through the mechanic of cost. Either way, the effect goes one way (even though it splits up), and not the other, so cost does not factor into the balance of the ship.
Just gonna quote and leave this here, as proof to Tippias' superiority over all miners 'n' carebears. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 15:54:00 -
[667] - Quote
Ignoring points and equivocating is not logical argumentation. As for trolling, I don't think it is a troll nor have I made that claim. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:03:00 -
[668] - Quote
Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote:Just gonna quote and leave this here, as proof to Tippias' superiority over all miners 'n' carebears. That's some nice over-reaching you're doing there, but thank you for the flattery.
Unlike you, however, I don't believe that all miners and carebears are all that deluded about what affects balance and what does not. Some might be, and some of those have probably understood why it's not by now, courtesy of the discussion and Ranger 1's examples.
You've never been able to prove that I have ignored any arguments or equivocated over anything, you knowGǪ Maybe it's about time you do so or stop lying to everyone GÇö it's not a very nice thing to do, you know.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:06:00 -
[669] - Quote
Tippia wrote:You've never been able to prove that I have ignored any arguments or equivocated over anything, you knowGǪ Maybe it's about time you do so or stop lying to everyone GÇö it's not a very nice thing to do, you know.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:08:00 -
[670] - Quote
Like I said. Lots of posts, zero proof of anything except your complete lack of proof. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:10:00 -
[671] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Like I said. Lots of posts, zero proof of anything except your complete lack of proof.
ROFL |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:13:00 -
[672] - Quote
Proving me more and more right, and yourself more and more wrong, every time you post. One would think you'd be a bit disturbed by this development.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
323
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:14:00 -
[673] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote:Like I said. Lots of posts, zero proof of anything except your complete lack of proof. ROFL Ah yes, the old ROFL evidenciary presentation.
Big on content, that. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:16:00 -
[674] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Proving me more and more right, and yourself more and more wrong, every time you post. One would think you'd be a bit disturbed by this development.
I'm enjoying abusing your need to get the last word in. So keep at it. |
Nydia Carver
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:16:00 -
[675] - Quote
Exhumers should be redesigned, more slots, power grid same line with tier 3 battleships. They should be able to fit 100 000 EHP tank. |
Plyn
Random Jedi Industries KRYSIS.
50
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:17:00 -
[676] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? and when was the last time you spent over 200 mill on an iteron? i mean can you buy them from then please! Quite irrelevant. The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing. "They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space."
That says defense equipped in expectation of combat to me. Come2Nullsec |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:18:00 -
[677] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Ah yes, the old ROFL evidenciary presentation.
Big on content, that.
Not intended to be evidence. Enjoy. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
324
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:24:00 -
[678] - Quote
Nydia Carver wrote:Exhumers should be redesigned, more slots, power grid same line with tier 3 battleships. They should be able to fit 100 000 EHP tank. No they shouldn't. But for a second let's say they should.
How many destroyers could gank it with 100k EHP? Answer: About nine or ten. Let's call it 12 just for *****.
So twelve destroyers at a cost of 2M each FITTED (24M ISK total) still gank your Hulk. You, being ever so resourceful and butthurt that 24M just destroyed your 300M ISK hulk, then come back here and claim it should have, what? A million EHP?
This is ridiculous. The whole argument is a joke. You don't even give a justification, you just make a bunch of vomitous claims and an expectation that's based on unreasonable premises...
Do you want to mine AFK? Risk-free? Hmmm?
No. Just no. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:25:00 -
[679] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Not intended to be evidence. Enjoy. Of course not, largely because you have no evidence as you have long since proven.
Plyn wrote:"They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space."
That says defense equipped in expectation of combat to me. It says GÇ£better prepared to withstand attacksGÇ¥ to me, which is what it isGǪ if you turn that preparedness into readiness by equipping a tank. It doesn't really say that it's a combat vessel, just that it's a hardened ship. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
613
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:27:00 -
[680] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Not intended to be evidence. Enjoy. Of course not, largely because you have no evidence as you have long since proven.
Claims do not make facts. try again fish |
|
Whitehound
37
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:27:00 -
[681] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:You will have a case for needing to buff the Hulk when sales drop off sharply in favor of cheaper alternatives, not before. I think this is where you are wrong. I am not saying that it needs a buff (or that it does not). All I ever said was that if it needs a change then it would need a better tank for all mining ships. The high cost of a Hulk do I see as the reason for the ganks. Players will gank a Freki when they see one for the same reason. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:31:00 -
[682] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Claims do not make facts. GǪand the fact is that in spite of repeated requests, you have remain unable to provide any proof that I have ignored arguments. You keep making the claim, but you can't turn it into fact by providing even the slightest shred of evidence. One would think that you would have jumped at the opportunity to prove me wrong by now, but for some reason, you just can't.
So yes, you've once again proven me right and yourself wrong. Once again, this is quite contrary to what one might expect. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
326
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:32:00 -
[683] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Not intended to be evidence. Enjoy. Of course not, largely because you have no evidence as you have long since proven. Claims do not make facts. try again fish Empty statements are devoid of facts. Yep. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
326
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:32:00 -
[684] - Quote
I want to get in the last word now. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
326
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:32:00 -
[685] - Quote
Do you really think the Hulk needs a buff? Based on what? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
326
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:33:00 -
[686] - Quote
I bet you have lots of constructive things to say. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
326
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:33:00 -
[687] - Quote
Any time now. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
614
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:47:00 -
[688] - Quote
The only person who cares is you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6042
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:50:00 -
[689] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The only person who cares is you. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:51:00 -
[690] - Quote
Oxylan wrote:i cant understand why ship worth actualy 330mil cant stand to curple t1 fited derstroyers or even cant survive one tornado, crazy...
The same way it's not a combat ship, and the same way no other ship can mine anywhere near the amount of ore that it is capable of. |
|
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:52:00 -
[691] - Quote
Nydia Carver wrote:Exhumers should be redesigned, more slots, power grid same line with tier 3 battleships. They should be able to fit 100 000 EHP tank.
While being adjusted to mine just like a tier 3 battleship (i.e. very poorly?)
Otherwise, no. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
618
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:55:00 -
[692] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:The only person who cares is you. Prove it.
You just did, thanks for playing |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:56:00 -
[693] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:The only person who cares is you. Prove it. You just did, thanks for playing
look at you, such a tryhard |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
618
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 16:57:00 -
[694] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:look at you, such a tryhard
Post with your main |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6046
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:00:00 -
[695] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:You just did, thanks for playing Nope. You still have to prove that no-one else in this thread (or indeed the forums (or indeed the world)) doesn't care. Get cracking GÇö that's a whole lot of signatures to collect.
As always, of course, you will not be able to provide any proof, but that's ok, I'll waitGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1512
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:00:00 -
[696] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:You will have a case for needing to buff the Hulk when sales drop off sharply in favor of cheaper alternatives, not before. I think this is where you are wrong. I am not saying that it needs a buff (or that it does not). All I ever said was that if it needs a change then it would need a better tank for all mining ships. The high cost of a Hulk do I see as the reason for the ganks. Players will gank a Freki when they see one for the same reason.
I can agree with "IF it needs a change, it would need a better tank", that's fair enough. Just saying that there isn't much evidence to support the premise that it needs a change to begin with.
While the high cost of a Hulk is some incentive to gank it to pad killboards, I think we both know that this is not the main reason for the large number of players doing it. Most are doing it because, if properly done, the value of the module drops make it profitable... not the value of the ship hull that got destroyed.
Well, that and the fact that open season on Hulks makes higher profits for those that sell Hulks or the minerals that those Hulks usually mine.
High value ganks = occasional incentive. Profit = long term incentive. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:00:00 -
[697] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lanasak wrote:look at you, such a tryhard Post with your main
I'm training skills on this character fwiw |
Whitehound
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:03:00 -
[698] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:The same way it's not a combat ship, and the same way no other ship can mine anywhere near the amount of ore that it is capable of. In EVE is every ship exposed to combat if you want to or not. To have ships that are particularly weak at it is what makes this a joke. |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:03:00 -
[699] - Quote
This thread needs love. Here have my likes and my emoticon hearts. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 -á |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:08:00 -
[700] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:The same way it's not a combat ship, and the same way no other ship can mine anywhere near the amount of ore that it is capable of. In EVE is every ship exposed to combat if you want to or not. To have ships that are particularly weak at it is what makes this a joke.
No, it does not - you are supposed to avoid combat with such ships at all costs. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6046
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:08:00 -
[701] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:In EVE is every ship exposed to combat if you want to or not. To have ships that are particularly weak at it is what makes this a joke. GǪand as it happens, the Hulk is surprisingly strong at it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Khadann
First Legion La Division Bleue
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:11:00 -
[702] - Quote
Has his topic been brought to the CSM already? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
189
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:11:00 -
[703] - Quote
even if they buff the hulk's tank none of you will be happy until it tanks like a vulture, maneuvers like a dramiel and mines twice as much as it does now Don't mind me, I'm just adding content to threads that otherwise have none. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
618
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:12:00 -
[704] - Quote
Tippia wrote: As always, of course, you will not be able to provide any proof, but that's ok, I'll waitGǪ
Poor little drama queen. Someone refuses to play her dumb games and she gets all bent. Boo hoo. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1512
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:12:00 -
[705] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:The same way it's not a combat ship, and the same way no other ship can mine anywhere near the amount of ore that it is capable of. In EVE is every ship exposed to combat if you want to or not. To have ships that are particularly weak at it is what makes this a joke.
I can't really agree with that.
Industrial or freight vessels historically are less able to deal with hostilities than combat oriented vessels, primarily due to being purpose built to excel at whatever industrial task they were designed for.
Just as battleships in game are at best only poor/average miners, because they were not specifically built to excel at this task.
Examples of this are everywhere, from present day Oil Tankers/pleasure boats/etc. victimized by Somali pirates, to the cargo vessels that were preyed upon so heavily by Uboats during WWII, to supply lines/caravans interdicted by the Visigoths during the fall of the Roman Empire.
I don't see anything wrong with industrial vessels being vulnerable to combat vessels. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6046
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:15:00 -
[706] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Boo hoo. Cry as much as you like, the facts remain the same: you have no proof.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:19:00 -
[707] - Quote
No hope. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6047
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:20:00 -
[708] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:I have this entire thread as proof. GǪand yet you can't provide it. Strange, thatGǪ again, you'd think that someone who's so keen on proving me wrong would jump on the opportunity to really hammer the point home and just shower me with links and citations to show my numerous mistakes.
And yet you can't. It's ok, don't cry. We understand that you have to keep the dream alive, even if it never becomes reality.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:22:00 -
[709] - Quote
No dream. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:22:00 -
[710] - Quote
No clue. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:22:00 -
[711] - Quote
No idea. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:22:00 -
[712] - Quote
No spine. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:23:00 -
[713] - Quote
And no recourse. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:23:00 -
[714] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:No, it does not - you are supposed to avoid combat with such ships at all costs. Then which attribute of the mining ships supports your claim? Is it their tank, is it their speed, their manoeuvrability or their ability to dock at a station?
You're claiming that the Hulk needs to be a combat-capable ship simply because of its cost, or because it is "exposed" to an environment where combat can happen at any time. I'm saying that this is blatantly false. |
Whitehound
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:26:00 -
[715] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:You're claiming that the Hulk needs to be a combat-capable ship simply because of its cost, or because it is "exposed" to an environment where combat can happen at any time. I'm saying that this is blatantly false. Why? |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
618
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:26:00 -
[716] - Quote
Tippia wrote: More ego puffing
Keep talking fish |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:28:00 -
[717] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:You're claiming that the Hulk needs to be a combat-capable ship simply because of its cost, or because it is "exposed" to an environment where combat can happen at any time. I'm saying that this is blatantly false. Why? How about a better question.
What would you, miner, actually be satisfied with?
Tell me and the Eve Community exactly what you want, with as much specificity as possible.
Be advised, however, that we will judge you by your covetous desires.
You are likely to be found wanting.
Go ahead. Let it all out. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:28:00 -
[718] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote: More ego puffing Keep talking fish Snail. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Marl Xun
Xun Armaments Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:28:00 -
[719] - Quote
Revolution Rising wrote: Keep in mind, people have been mining in 0.0 for years without this. But it requires more to do it.
And in that time we've seen:
Tech 3 battlecruisers T3 battlecruisers Destroyer buff Blaster/railgun buff
So when do Hulks get some love to counter this? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:29:00 -
[720] - Quote
Larva. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:29:00 -
[721] - Quote
Slug. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:29:00 -
[722] - Quote
Goat. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:29:00 -
[723] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:You're claiming that the Hulk needs to be a combat-capable ship simply because of its cost, or because it is "exposed" to an environment where combat can happen at any time. I'm saying that this is blatantly false. Why?
Because it's a ship that can mine 3000 m3 of ore per minute. It's ridiculously powerful for mining - that power comes at the expense of any real combat capability. |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:30:00 -
[724] - Quote
Marl Xun wrote:Revolution Rising wrote: Keep in mind, people have been mining in 0.0 for years without this. But it requires more to do it.
And in that time we've seen: Tech 3 battlecruisers T3 battlecruisers Destroyer buff Blaster/railgun buff So when do Hulks get some love to counter this?
Show me these mythical tech 3 battlecruisers |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:30:00 -
[725] - Quote
Marl Xun wrote:Revolution Rising wrote: Keep in mind, people have been mining in 0.0 for years without this. But it requires more to do it.
And in that time we've seen: Tech 3 battlecruisers T3 battlecruisers Destroyer buff Blaster/railgun buff So when do Hulks get some love to counter this? Strange how Hulks seem to do very well at their intended role.
Deep space mining.
In nullsec.
Where it is actually used - correctly!
So odd that flying a boat properly virtually ensures its continued existence.
And without a buff! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6047
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:35:00 -
[726] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Keep talking I have to start before I can GÇ£keepGÇ£ doing it. So far, it has all been in writing. You still have no proof, apparently. That makes it, what, four different things you cannot prove so far?
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:No, it does not - you are supposed to avoid combat with such ships at all costs. Then which attribute of the mining ships supports your claim? Is it their tank, is it their speed, their manoeuvrability or their ability to dock at a station? The fact that it's not a combat ship, but a mining vessel GÇö a ship intended to suck ore from rocks, not shoot other ships. It's an oil rig, not a war ship. It has been given stats to improve its ability to withstand combat, should it come that far, but it is not meant to be in combat.
Marl Xun wrote:So when do Hulks get some love to counter this? As soon as it needs one, i.e. not in a while. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
618
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:37:00 -
[727] - Quote
Say something fish? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:38:00 -
[728] - Quote
Cheese. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lanasak
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
55
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:38:00 -
[729] - Quote
https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras/status/179947277178241025
When Hulks are the most popular shiptype in the game, I see little need for a buff. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:38:00 -
[730] - Quote
Paramoecium. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Whitehound
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:40:00 -
[731] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:Because it's a ship that can mine 3000 m3 of ore per minute. It's ridiculously powerful for mining - that power comes at the expense of any real combat capability. Not all mining ships can mine 3000m3/min. Only two can where one of them costs 300m ISKs. It is not ridiculously powerful for mining. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:42:00 -
[732] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:Because it's a ship that can mine 3000 m3 of ore per minute. It's ridiculously powerful for mining - that power comes at the expense of any real combat capability. Not all mining ships can mine 3000m3/min. Only two can where one of them costs 300m ISKs. It is not ridiculously powerful for mining. WORKING AS INTENDED.
SEE ALSO: MOST POPULAR SHIP IN EVE. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1514
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:45:00 -
[733] - Quote
I wouldn't worry about him too much Darth, Tippia rather enjoys stringing along the trolls who think they are getting Tip worked up because he keeps responding.
Tippia will outlast them, much to their disgust, and in the meantime letting their post history show without a doubt that they are nothing more than a troll. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6048
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 17:47:00 -
[734] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:I have no proof Well, then you should probably get cracking on finding some.
Whitehound wrote:Not all mining ships can mine 3000m3/min. Only two can where one of them costs 300m ISKs. It is not ridiculously powerful for mining. It's powerful enough to warrant the price tag, apparently. Performance dictates price, remember, not the other way around.
As for being ridiculously powerful GÇö it's the most powerful miner in the game. Making it more powerful than that would indeed be ridiculous.
edit: Ranger 1 GÇö shh! Don't expose my secrets like that! GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
544
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:00:00 -
[735] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: While the high cost of a Hulk is some incentive to gank it to pad killboards, I think we both know that this is not the main reason for the large number of players doing it. Most are doing it because, if properly done, the value of the module drops make it profitable... not the value of the ship hull that got destroyed.
And that's why many sh!t fit their exhumers. More yield (fitting harvesting upgrades is easier with rest T1) and way way less profitable for the gankers.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Whitehound
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:01:00 -
[736] - Quote
Lanasak wrote:https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras/status/179947277178241025
When Hulks are the most popular shiptype in the game, I see little need for a buff. And it is followed closely by the pod.
But seriously, we are not talking about buffs here. We are talking about the reasons for why it needs ships to be as weak as they are while EVE is a PvP game. Who likes to flying a mining ship? I know I do not. You can talk about how the game needs to be, but one needs to be fair and talk about it. No one cares for people who just say that it has to be like this without having a good reason for it. For example, rookies should start in weak ships, because they need to learn a lot about EVE and its players, its organizations and how to fit in. You cannot give them a strong ship at start or else you have them rampaging all over the place. So if you can then give reasons why miners need to be the designated victims in EVE.
I think we have many victims every day for plenty of reasons and I see no demand to create a ship class only to have some more. I see the weak tanks of the mining ships as a design flaw in the concept of EVE as being a PvP game. It does not ships for victims. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
544
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:04:00 -
[737] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I wouldn't worry about him too much Darth, Tippia rather enjoys stringing along the trolls who think they are getting Tip worked up because he keeps responding.
Tippia will outlast them, much to their disgust, and in the meantime letting their post history show without a doubt that they are nothing more than a troll.
It's more like a sword and board tank in a medievall MMO. They stand there silly and unmovable, the others look at them, ignore them and move on. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:06:00 -
[738] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lanasak wrote:https://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Diagoras/status/179947277178241025
When Hulks are the most popular shiptype in the game, I see little need for a buff. And it is followed closely by the pod. But seriously, we are not talking about buffs here. We are talking about the reasons for why it needs ships to be as weak as they are while EVE is a PvP game. Who likes to flying a mining ship? I know I do not. You can talk about how the game needs to be, but one needs to be fair and talk about it. No one cares for people who just say that it has to be like this without having a good reason for it. For example, rookies should start in weak ships, because they need to learn a lot about EVE and its players, its organizations and how to fit in. You cannot give them a strong ship at start or else you have them rampaging all over the place. So if you can then give reasons why miners need to be the designated victims in EVE. I think we have many victims every day for plenty of reasons and I see no demand to create a ship class only to have some more. I see the weak tanks of the mining ships as a design flaw in the concept of EVE as being a PvP game. It does not need ships for victims. Tell me how strong they should be then.
You keep ducking the issue, there.
The truth is you will always be a victim if you refuse to think of yourself in any other role.
No amount of buff can save you from that. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
618
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:08:00 -
[739] - Quote
Tippia wrote: I can ignore anything I don't like, and if you prove it, I will still ignore it and then ask for proof.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6051
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:10:00 -
[740] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:But seriously, we are not talking about buffs here. We are talking about the reasons for why it needs ships to be as weak as they are while EVE is a PvP game. Because that weakness (which isn't nearly as huge as some want to claim GÇö the thing can outtank a fair number of actual combat ships) is what you'd expect from a resource extraction vehicle, or indeed any kind of vehicle that's not in a combat role. You'll see the same design in any number of games, where you have to put up a good combat patrol with actual combat ships to protect that vulnerable resource extraction expedition.
The kind of PvP it engages in is not one of blasting away hitpoints from the other guy GÇö it's about getting ze stuff before he does, and the Hulk excels at it. It doesn't need to be any stronger to do so. Leaving it physically weak also means that it is susceptible to being beaten by other forms of competition: if you can't out-mine the other guy, blow him up! (and conversely, if you can't out-shoot him, out-build him!) If the Hulk was strong in both areas, this dynamic would be weakened.
Adunh Slavy wrote:I ignore anything I don't like We know. Can you provide any kind of proof that I ignored your arguments? Now would be a good time to do soGǪ
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:It's more like a sword and board tank in a medievall MMO. They stand there silly and unmovable, the others look at them, ignore them and move on. Meh, at least I'm still discussing the topic of the thread, where he seems to be entirely consumed by covering up his lack of arguments at this point. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
baltec1
1083
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:12:00 -
[741] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And that's why many sh!t fit their exhumers. More yield (fitting harvesting upgrades is easier with rest T1) and way way less profitable for the gankers.
Its the **** fit exhumers that provide the best profits for a ganker. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:45:00 -
[742] - Quote
It still remains a fact. In a fleet the Hulk cannot fullfil it's intended use, as it is required to tank for survivabilty.
Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty. The fact that the ganker has first dibs on engagement, already puts the hulk at a disadvatage.
And please. Do not use the "Combat" arguement. All ships are in a combat zone. The tank on all ships should reflect this. As standard. Also you can argue All combat ships have a minimum of 2 defensive mechanisms some 3. The hulk, has the lowest of these mechanisms.
Now I am not saying the Hulk needs a buff. But it is not in a good place. It is only popular because there is not a choice of top end mining ships. Most miners fly a Hulk. How does it compare with all 4 T3 BC's or standard BC's added together. Also Mining probably has the largest amount of people doing it, for iskie making.
The cost of the Hulk does affect the ganking amount. there is no denying that. But it should not ever reflect it's performance. The value of a product is what people are prepared to pay for it. nothing more.
As in all cases solo play should require you to find a happy medium, between role and survivabilty. The Hulk does this exceptionally well. I cannot argue with that. Unfortunately buffing the Hulk for fleet play, will give solo play a buff it does not need. Added to this. Most miners will use any buff to tank, to increase yield.
All in all it is the mentality of most miners that need to change. Play as the situation dictates.
o7 |
Whitehound
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:47:00 -
[743] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Tell me how strong they should be then. I am not going to tell you anything other than you being on my ignore list for spamming this thread. Next time when you know how to behave might I care more about what you have to say.
Tippia wrote:Because that weakness (which isn't nearly as huge as some want to claim GÇö the thing can outtank a fair number of actual combat ships) is what you'd expect from a resource extraction vehicle ... No, I do not expect it. You do and you probably only do it, because this is how you know EVE. I am then not looking for some narcissist to explain to me how EVE is. I want a discussion where people can talk openly about their views on PvP, the ships and so on without having to bow to another forum member out of a false understanding of respect. I am adult.
I thought I should let you two know. I do keep checking on some of your comments once in a while to see if you are really interested in a discussion or if you only want to "own" a thread. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
333
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:54:00 -
[744] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:It still remains a fact. In a fleet the Hulk cannot fullfil it's intended use, as it is required to tank for survivabilty.
Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty. The fact that the ganker has first dibs on engagement, already puts the hulk at a disadvatage.
And please. Do not use the "Combat" arguement. All ships are in a combat zone. The tank on all ships should reflect this. As standard. Also you can argue All combat ships have a minimum of 2 defensive mechanisms some 3. The hulk, has the lowest of these mechanisms.
Now I am not saying the Hulk needs a buff. But it is not in a good place. It is only popular because there is not a choice of top end mining ships. Most miners fly a Hulk. How does it compare with all 4 T3 BC's or standard BC's added together. Also Mining probably has the largest amount of people doing it, for iskie making.
The cost of the Hulk does affect the ganking amount. there is no denying that. But it should not ever reflect it's performance. The value of a product is what people are prepared to pay for it. nothing more.
As in all cases solo play should require you to find a happy medium, between role and survivabilty. The Hulk does this exceptionally well. I cannot argue with that. Unfortunately buffing the Hulk for fleet play, will give solo play a buff it does not need. Added to this. Most miners will use any buff to tank, to increase yield.
All in all it is the mentality of most miners that need to change. Play as the situation dictates.
o7 OK I'll name one. The Megathron. Totally gimped for its main role (DPS) if properly tanked for survivability.
Welcome to ******* equality. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Prince Kobol
534
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 18:58:00 -
[745] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:It still remains a fact. In a fleet the Hulk cannot fullfil it's intended use, as it is required to tank for survivabilty.
Its intended use is to mine which it does better then any other ship.
malcovas Henderson wrote:Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty. The fact that the ganker has first dibs on engagement, already puts the hulk at a disadvatage.
You do not need to tank your hulk for max survivabilty, its called balance. Also you can use the same argument for many other types of industrial ships.
malcovas Henderson wrote:And please. Do not use the "Combat" arguement. All ships are in a combat zone. The tank on all ships should reflect this. As standard. Also you can argue All combat ships have a minimum of 2 defensive mechanisms some 3. The hulk, has the lowest of these mechanisms.
In which case I want my noob ship to have more tank, same with my shuttles
malcovas Henderson wrote:Now I am not saying the Hulk needs a buff. But it is not in a good place. It is only popular because there is not a choice of top end mining ships. Most miners fly a Hulk. How does it compare with all 4 T3 BC's or standard BC's added together. Also Mining probably has the largest amount of people doing it, for iskie making.
A hulk is not a combat ship so do not compare it with other combat ships.
malcovas Henderson wrote:The cost of the Hulk does affect the ganking amount. there is no denying that. But it should not ever reflect it's performance. The value of a product is what people are prepared to pay for it. nothing more.
I have seen many Tengu's ganked by ships worth less then a 10th of its price, does this mean that tengu's need to be buffed? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
334
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:00:00 -
[746] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:stuff OK I'll name one. The Megathron. Totally gimped for its main role (DPS) if properly tanked for survivability. Welcome to ******* equality. So you fly a gimped megathron in a fleet? You asked for examples of ships which, if fitted for a tank, are gimped in their role.
I provided ******* tons of them you twit.
No, I don't fly a gimped megathron in a fleet.
I fit it the way it's supposed to be fitted - for its role.
Sometimes, that means I die. That is not indicative of the Megathron being broken.
It indicates instead that I sustained more damage than my EHP plus remote reps could sustain.
This is an utterly infantile argument. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:04:00 -
[747] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:stuff OK I'll name one. The Megathron. Totally gimped for its main role (DPS) if properly tanked for survivability. Welcome to ******* equality. So you fly a gimped megathron in a fleet? You asked for examples of ships which, if fitted for a tank, are gimped in their role. I provided ******* tons of them you twit. No, I don't fly a gimped megathron in a fleet. I fit it the way it's supposed to be fitted - for its role. Sometimes, that means I die. That is not indicative of the Megathron being broken. It indicates instead that I sustained more damage than my EHP plus remote reps could sustain. This is an utterly infantile argument.
Please read the post again
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
334
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:09:00 -
[748] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:stuff OK I'll name one. The Megathron. Totally gimped for its main role (DPS) if properly tanked for survivability. Welcome to ******* equality. So you fly a gimped megathron in a fleet? You asked for examples of ships which, if fitted for a tank, are gimped in their role. I provided ******* tons of them you twit. No, I don't fly a gimped megathron in a fleet. I fit it the way it's supposed to be fitted - for its role. Sometimes, that means I die. That is not indicative of the Megathron being broken. It indicates instead that I sustained more damage than my EHP plus remote reps could sustain. This is an utterly infantile argument. Please read the post again Meaningful content still missing from post. Question: Still being begged. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6051
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:16:00 -
[749] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:It still remains a fact. In a fleet the Hulk cannot fullfil it's intended use, as it is required to tank for survivabilty. In a fleet, the Hulk can fulfil its intended use even better than it can on its own and while maintaining a better tank than when flying solo. The fleet means it doesn't need to fit anything other than tank and mining equipment, and both can be supplemented by fleet bonuses. In this context, its tank should be approaching 40k EHP and its yield should be far above what it can otherwise reach.
In other words, your fact is a complete fabrication.
Quote:Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty. All of them. Any ship that tanks for max suvivability gimps its primary role, regardless of whether it's in a fleet or not.
Quote:The cost of the Hulk does affect the ganking amount. How does it do that?
Whitehound wrote:No, I do not expect it. You do not expect a resource-harvesting, non-combat ship to be weaker than the combat ships? Really? You need to adjust your expectations because they are not realistic. They contradict pretty much every game on the market. Hell, in many games, resource harvesters aren't even engaged in combat GÇö they are just outright destroyed or conquered without a fight.
Moreover, that is the reason why the Hulk is weaker than combat ships, and that is what you were asking about: because its weakness (which, again, isn't actually all that severe) is part of defining its role. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:18:00 -
[750] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:It still remains a fact. In a fleet the Hulk cannot fullfil it's intended use, as it is required to tank for survivabilty.
Its intended use is to mine which it does better then any other ship. Do you gimp your DPS while in a fleet?
Prince Kobol wrote:Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty. The fact that the ganker has first dibs on engagement, already puts the hulk at a disadvatage.
You do not need to tank your hulk for max survivabilty, its called balance. Also you can use the same argument for many other types of industrial ships. Happy mediums do not happen in fleets
Prince Kobol wrote:And please. Do not use the "Combat" arguement. All ships are in a combat zone. The tank on all ships should reflect this. As standard. Also you can argue All combat ships have a minimum of 2 defensive mechanisms some 3. The hulk, has the lowest of these mechanisms.
In which case I want my noob ship to have more tank, same with my shuttles For their size the probably got ample tank
Prince Kobol wrote:Now I am not saying the Hulk needs a buff. But it is not in a good place. It is only popular because there is not a choice of top end mining ships. Most miners fly a Hulk. How does it compare with all 4 T3 BC's or standard BC's added together. Also Mining probably has the largest amount of people doing it, for iskie making.
A hulk is not a combat ship so do not compare it with other combat ships. This is about popularity of ships and possible reasons for that
Prince Kobol wrote:The cost of the Hulk does affect the ganking amount. there is no denying that. But it should not ever reflect it's performance. The value of a product is what people are prepared to pay for it. nothing more.
I have seen many Tengu's ganked by ships worth less then a 10th of its price, does this mean that tengu's need to be buffed? This is agreeing with Tippia and yourself so why argue against it?
o7 |
|
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
447
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:19:00 -
[751] - Quote
t3 mining ship with subsystems pls. I have more space likes than you.-á |
baltec1
1084
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:19:00 -
[752] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty.
Absolution, Aeon, Anathema, Apocalypse, Arazu, Arbitrator, Archon, Ares, Armageddon, Astarte, Atron, Augoror, Avatar, Badger, Badger Mark II, Bantam, Basilisk, Bellicose, Bestower, Blackbird, Breacher, Brutix, Burst, Bustard, Buzzard, Caracal, Catalyst, Celestis, Cerberus, Cheetah, Claw, Claymore, Coercer, Condor, Cormorant, Crane, Crow, Crucifier, Crusader, Curse, Cyclone, Damnation, Deimos, Dominix, Drake, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Erebus, Eris, Executioner, Exequror, Falcon, Ferox, Flycatcher, Griffin, Guardian, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Hawk, Hel, Helios, Heretic, Heron, Hoarder, Hound, Huginn, Hyperion, Imicus, Impel, Incursus, Inquisitor, Ishkur, Ishtar, Iteron, Iteron Mark II, Iteron Mark III, Iteron Mark IV, Iteron Mark V, Jaguar, Kestrel, Lachesis, Leviathan, Malediction, Maller, Mammoth, Manticore, Mastodon, Maulus, Megathron, Merlin, Moa, Moros, Muninn, Naglfar, Navitas, Nemesis, Nidhoggur, Nighthawk, Nyx, Occator, Omen, Oneiros, Osprey, Phoenix, Pilgrim, Probe, Prophecy, Prorator, Prowler, Punisher, Purifier, Ragnarok, Rapier, Raptor, Raven, Retribution, Revelation, Rifter, Rook, Rokh, Rupture, Sabre, Sacrilege, Scimitar, Scorpion, Scythe, Sigil, Slasher, Sleipnir, Stabber, Stiletto, Taranis, Tempest, Thanatos, Thorax, Thrasher, Tormentor, Tristan, Typhoon, Vagabond, Vengeance, Vexor, Viator, Vigil, Vulture, Wolf, Wreathe, Wyvern and the Zealot. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
282
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:23:00 -
[753] - Quote
^ pretty sure you missed a few... |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:27:00 -
[754] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote: Name any other ship that gimps it's role withing a fleet, by tanking to the max for survivabilty. The fact that the ganker has first dibs on engagement, already puts the hulk at a disadvatage.
It appears I am not clear as to my intent with this. for that i apologize.
Name any other ship thats gimped deliberately while fleeted, to gain maximum survivabilty. To perform it's role
o7 |
baltec1
1085
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:27:00 -
[755] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:^ pretty sure you missed a few...
Most likely. |
baltec1
1085
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:28:00 -
[756] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
It appears I am not clear as to my intent with this. for that i apologize.
Name any other ship thats gimped deliberately while fleeted, to gain maximum survivabilty.
o7
I give you the same answer. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6051
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:30:00 -
[757] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Name any other ship thats gimped deliberately while fleeted, to gain maximum survivabilty. To perform it's role None of them, including the Hulk. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Avila Cracko
311
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:51:00 -
[758] - Quote
some people just dont have life and just troll here all day long that Hulk is fine Hulk have tank just under the tank of empty beer can.
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
283
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:53:00 -
[759] - Quote
Dbars Grinding wrote:t3 mining ship with subsystems pls.
yes please... i would actually take up minning if i could do it in my proteus... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:59:00 -
[760] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:some people just dont have life and just troll here all day long that Hulk is fine Hulk have tank just under the tank of empty beer can.
Tanks better than many t2 cruisers out there. |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:02:00 -
[761] - Quote
^ which ones? hacs have better tanks... hics have better tanks... even a recon has a better tank...
i still think hulks should get a pg boost for a LSE...
but i am more pushing for a tech III subsystems for minning... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Alara IonStorm
1975
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:06:00 -
[762] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:^ which ones? hacs have better tanks... hics have better tanks... even a recon has a better tank...
i still think hulks should get a pg boost for a LSE...
I don't think they need an LSE.
I would be happy if they had fitting for just this.
[Hulk, Without Fitting Mods] Damage Control II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Hobgoblin II x5
Without needing to spam fitting mods to get an MSE and Mining Dmg Mod to fit on the same hull with T2 Mining Lasers. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:08:00 -
[763] - Quote
^ ok so a slight pg boost so it can fit a tank mse/minning setup and not have to completley sacrifice minning efficacy? PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
663
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:09:00 -
[764] - Quote
why should I care about the 'balancing problems' from people who prefer to leave their midslots empty rather then fit tanking mods to their shield ship?
If you feel that you need 2 cargohold optimizers + 2 MLUs just to be competitive in highsec mining and can't bother with a tank, that means flying a hulk in high is too safe, not too dangerous |
Alara IonStorm
1975
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:14:00 -
[765] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:why should I care about the 'balancing problems' from people who prefer to leave their midslots empty rather then fit tanking mods to their shield ship?
If you feel that you need 2 cargohold optimizers + 2 MLUs just to be competitive in highsec mining and can't bother with a tank, that means flying a hulk in high is too safe, not too dangerous You shouldn't care about them because they won't fit tanks anyway and will die. You can then feel free to laugh at them.
Care about the people who would. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
448
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:16:00 -
[766] - Quote
t3 subsystem idea 1. makes the ship unscannable with D scan. people actually have to go to the belt and look for it.
I have more space likes than you.-á |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:18:00 -
[767] - Quote
^ yes... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:18:00 -
[768] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:^ which ones? hacs have better tanks... hics have better tanks... even a recon has a better tank...
i still think hulks should get a pg boost for a LSE...
but i am more pushing for a tech III subsystems for minning...
Stick a MWD and point into the mids of any sheild tanker and you impact its tank, any tracking and damage mods into the lows hits the tank of armour ships then puttin on the guns. Then there are the webs, target painters ect ect. It all can build up so you can easily sacrifice a lot of tank for what you need to do.
Even the insta cane only gets around 27k EHP buffer. The tank on a hulk is good. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:22:00 -
[769] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: You shouldn't care about them because they won't fit tanks anyway and will die. You can then feel free to laugh at them.
Care about the people who would.
You can already tank them well and like anything its a choice of survivability or utility. |
Zaitoun Somalian
The Craniac The Aurora Shadow
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:23:00 -
[770] - Quote
Dbars Grinding wrote:t3 subsystem idea 1. makes the ship unscannable with D scan. people actually have to go to the belt and look for it.
I don't see why there needs to be any changes to the hulk in terms of survivability. There are some well tanked hulks out there as far as high sec is concerned. We run pretty good security for our corp in high sec with our miners (we get can flippers all the time lately). And I've run into some null sec corps on roams that also do a pretty damn good job as well. Just last week, I cruised Red Alliance territory and we found some folks who had been mining. They were mining in a pocket system with 30+ bubbles on the gate. They had a tower in there and as soon as we hit the system they went right into the pos.
We spent maybe 10 minutes running around and left. No kills. Leave the hulk the way it is and just mine smarter.
Zait |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6051
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:24:00 -
[771] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Stick a MWD and point into the mids of any sheild tanker and you impact its tank, any tracking and damage mods into the lows hits the tank of armour ships then puttin on the guns. Then there are the webs, target painters ect ect. It all can build up so you can easily sacrifice a lot of tank for what you need to do.
Even the insta cane only gets around 27k EHP buffer. The tank on a hulk is good. GǪe.g. the GǣVamosGǥ fit Deimos: 20k EHP without suitcase; 28k with it, and with a honking big EM hole to exploit.
Ok, so it's the Diemost GÇö the ultimate cheap shot in not being able to tank GÇö but stillGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Avila Cracko
312
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:28:00 -
[772] - Quote
And still CCP is going to BOOST frigs and CRUISERS after they boosted destroyers. truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Alara IonStorm
1975
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:28:00 -
[773] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You can already tank them well and like anything its a choice of survivability or utility.
You are really going to go with that right after you said this.
baltec1 wrote: Even the insta cane only gets around 27k EHP buffer. The tank on a hulk is good.
How much utility did you throw on this fit, 6-7 Slots worth plus the grid to fit a good tank if so required.
I want 2 utility slots and a Destroyer sized Extender. Ships make sacrifices all the time but between the 2 lows and 4 mids this ship doesn't have a lot to sacrifice.
Do you think it needs more slots for more sacrifice options? Because 2 Utility Mods and a 4 slot tank where the biggest module is destroyer grade is not a lot to ask for from the best Mining Ship in the game. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:33:00 -
[774] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: How much utility did you throw on this fit, 6-7 Slots worth plus the grid to fit a good tank if so required.
I want 2 utility slots and a Destroyer sized Extender. Ships make sacrifices all the time but between the 2 lows and 4 mids this ship doesn't have a lot to sacrifice.
Do you think it needs more slots for more sacrifice options? Because 2 Utility Mods and a 4 slot tank where the biggest module is destroyer grade is not a lot to ask for from the best Mining Ship in the game.
Its worked perfectly fine for 6 or 7 years. |
Alara IonStorm
1975
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:36:00 -
[775] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Its worked perfectly fine for 6 or 7 years.
Same can be said about all the lower tier ships they are buffing in Inferno.
Biggest boost they are giving them all is fitting... so they don't need to make so many sacrifices.
|
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:37:00 -
[776] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:baltec1 wrote: Its worked perfectly fine for 6 or 7 years.
Same can be said about all the lower tier ships they are buffing in Inferno. Biggest boost they are giving them all is fitting... so they don't need to make so many sacrifices.
Many t1 cruisers are not working fine in combat and never have. The hulk has always done its job well and continues to do well. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
397
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:39:00 -
[777] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:And still CCP is going to BOOST frigs and CRUISERS after they boosted destroyers.
CCP doesnt want you mining... when are you gonna get the clue https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Alara IonStorm
1975
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:41:00 -
[778] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Many t1 cruisers are not working fine in combat and never have. The hulk has always done its job well and continues to do well.
Not true, it can not tank Single Ganks unless it sacrifices all MLU.
It has worked because most people fly paper to get good yield as you have so eagerly stated.
Cruisers right now have ether insufficient damage or tank do to poor fitting which as you said isn't working fine.
They both could use this buff. I don't want to see Exhumers better, just more utility options. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:46:00 -
[779] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: Not true, it can not tank Single Ganks unless it sacrifices all MLU.
It has worked because most people fly paper to get good yield as you have so eagerly stated.
Cruisers right now have ether insufficient damage or tank do to poor fitting which as you said isn't working fine.
They both could use this buff. I don't want to see Exhumers better, just more utility options.
The hulk is much like the diemost. Max damage and little tank or max tank and reduced firepower. If a maxtank hulk was dragging in very little ore then you might have a point. But it mines slightly better than most t2 fitted covetors while having a much larger buffer and a larger cargo hold to boot. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
191
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:47:00 -
[780] - Quote
A fully tank fit Hulk (MAPC II, DC II, meta 4 LSE, two T2 invulns, best-named active EM hardener, 2x CDFE I) gets 32k EHP with all tanking skills to V. With T2 strip miners, mindlinked Orca bonuses and a 5% mining yield hardwiring, it mines 2636 m3/minute on an ALV character. This is more than any yield-fit mining barge/exhumer can pull.
You're whining about giving up 400 m3/minute (15% of the yield of a full-yield fit) for nearly three times the EHP you would have in a yield fit. Don't mind me, I'm just adding content to threads that otherwise have none. |
|
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:49:00 -
[781] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Even the insta cane only gets around 27k EHP buffer. The tank on a hulk is good. Those 25k-32k figures for a Hulk that people have mentioned can only be had at all level 5 and by using every available slot including rigs for its tank. It is about as dull as the one mid-slot of a Covetor, which can only be used for a scanner. At least a Hurricane can be fitted in many different ways for what it is designed to do. The Hulk fits presented here are only a necessity. With the Hulk being the most popular ship, which is a questionable position for any ship in terms of game diversity, could easily get buffed to 50k eHP and it would not change a thing about its role. You are not going to see any alliances suddenly fighting in fleets of Hulks or fielding Hulks in the tournaments any time soon. Nor are you going to change the Hulks popularity by reducing its tank to 10k eHP. The Hulk's tank is not good, its price is not good and its popularity is not good. The Mackinaw is just as bad and the T1 mining ships are not helping either. So what if the Hulk had 50k eHP? Would it be too scary when some Hulk pilots now get all brave, fit warp core stabs and dare mining in low-sec? |
Avila Cracko
312
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:49:00 -
[782] - Quote
so... a little Cruisers have good stats and dont need buff (when you are comparing its tank with hulk that hulk dont need more HP) and now when they are getting buff now they are bad (because that would mean that hulk needs buff too)
LOL... that are our EVE politicians truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
191
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:51:00 -
[783] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:so... a little Cruisers have good stats and dont need buff (when you are comparing its tank with hulk that hulk dont need more HP) and now when they are getting buff now they are bad (because that would mean that hulk needs buff too) LOL... that are our EVE politicians
sense, your post makes none Don't mind me, I'm just adding content to threads that otherwise have none. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:54:00 -
[784] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:so... a little Cruisers have good stats and dont need buff (when you are comparing its tank with hulk that hulk dont need more HP) and now when they are getting buff now they are bad (because that would mean that hulk needs buff too) LOL... that are our EVE politicians
When was the last time you saw a Celestis or Augoror in pvp? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6051
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:54:00 -
[785] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Those 25k-32k figures for a Hulk that people have mentioned can only be had at all level 5 and by using every available slot inclduing rigs for its tank. No, you can get to them with much less, and the GÇ£all VGÇ¥ skills needed are all very basic and easy to get GÇö by the time you have a Hulk, you should have them trained anyway.
Quote:With the Hulk being the most popular ship, which is a questionable position for any ship in terms of game diversity, could easily get buffed to 50k eHP and it would not change a thing about its role. GǪso it doesn't serve any real purpose to do so.
Quote:The Hulk's tank is not good, its price is not good and its popularity is not good. It's tank is respectable GÇö better than some combat ships even GÇö and what could be expected from a harvesting ship. Its price reflects its popularity and its effectiveness, and is currenly being subjected to upward pressure from speculation. Its popularity is through the roof GÇö it's beyond good. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Alara IonStorm
1975
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 20:55:00 -
[786] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The hulk is much like the diemost. Max damage and little tank or max tank and reduced firepower. If a maxtank hulk was dragging in very little ore then you might have a point. But it mines slightly better than most t2 fitted covetors while having a much larger buffer and a larger cargo hold to boot.
Yes but it comes down to sacrifice in the Deimos case. You don't need fitting mods to make good HAC Fits they all get Dmg Mods, Tank and Utility.
A destroyer sized extender, Invulns, Survey Scanner, MLU and T2 Mining Laser is not unlike the Ion II, 800mm Plate 2 EANM, MWD /Scram / Web, 2 Magstab Deimos you can already fit.
You can still sacrifice the Scanner for more tank or the DCU for a second MLU. Just gives the ship a bit more utility.
Whether the game would be better with it is opinion and mine says it will.
|
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:00:00 -
[787] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:[quote=baltec1] Those 25k-32k figures for a Hulk that people have mentioned can only be had at all level 5 and by using every available slot including rigs for its tank. It is about as dull as the one mid-slot of a Covetor, which can only be used for a scanner. At least a Hurricane can be fitted in many different ways for what it is designed to do. The Hulk fits presented here are only a necessity. With the Hulk being the most popular ship, which is a questionable position for any ship in terms of game diversity, could easily get buffed to 50k eHP and it would not change a thing about its role. You are not going to see any alliances suddenly fighting in fleets of Hulks or fielding Hulks in the tournaments any time soon. Nor are you going to change the Hulks popularity by reducing its tank to 10k eHP. The Hulk's tank is not good, its price is not good and its popularity is not good. The Mackinaw is just as bad and the T1 mining ships are not helping either. So what if the Hulk had 50k eHP? Would it be too scary when some Hulk pilots now get all brave, fit warp core stabs and dare mining in low-sec?
There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:27:00 -
[788] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.
It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship. |
Shukuzen Kiraa
47-Ronin Outer Ring Excavations Syndicate
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:30:00 -
[789] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.
It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship.
industrial ships are not ship to ship combat ships but I can tank the hell out of a transport ship, but noooo a ship that mines in hostile space environments does not qualify for a ship with a need to defend itself lol.
edit: I said ship far to many times in that sentence lol :D |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:30:00 -
[790] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.
It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship.
And near god like beings with billions in the bank would not create enough market demand for some designer to profit from that demand?
The real world anaolgies fail.
|
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6051
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:32:00 -
[791] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. GǪif there was a need for them. The fact that people don't even tank their ships and instead go full tilt on the yield and cargo capacity shows that the demand isn't really there.
Sure, we're somewhat restricted to what ships CCP gives us, but we're quite free in how we choose to adapt them to the environment. So far, that adaptation has gone away from the heavy tanks. Once we move through that player-made GÇ£adaptation bufferGÇ¥ back towards tanks, and when it starts to strain what we can do with those ships (to the point where people begin to abandon them in favour of tankier ships), then maybe it would be time to have a look at the Hulk. We're pretty much as far away from that point as possible right now though. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:34:00 -
[792] - Quote
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.
It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship. industrial ships are not ship to ship combat ships but I can tank the hell out of a transport ship, but noooo a ship that mines in hostile space environments does not qualify for a ship with a need to defend itself lol. edit: I said ship far to many times in that sentence lol :D
A transport ship is designed for deep space convoy missions where you need a hefty tank. Back in the Days when you had to transport goods via gates and had no jump frieghters or carriers. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:37:00 -
[793] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
And near god like beings with billions in the bank would not create enough market demand for some designer to profit from that demand?
The real world anaolgies fail.
Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:48:00 -
[794] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them.
So you have a different context for "civilian industrial ship"? |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:50:00 -
[795] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them.
So you have a different context for "civilian industrial ship"?
If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard... |
Ai Shun
635
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:52:00 -
[796] - Quote
Any of the Caldari corporations, including my own, would be happy to sell you a basic hull platform in a size ranging from Frigate to Battleship that is capable of mining and can survive most hostile encounters. If necessary, we can arrange for a fitting tutorial to ensure you know how to fit the hull properly for defence.
This is certainly an improvement over the capabilities of the ORE platform which is built purely for mining and needs a designated escort or a compromise in terms of mining efficiency over durability.
Reasonable offers can be made to any of the Caldari State corporations; although I would recommend Lai Dai as they have a more focussed mining platform and they specialise in high quality products. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:52:00 -
[797] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships. Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec.
Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff.
Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:52:00 -
[798] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zverofaust wrote:I have recently taken up the olympic flame of ganking Hulks and I must say they are pretty ******* ridiculous. My t2 fit Catalyst rocking overheated neutron smoked a Hulk in a 0.8 system before CONCORD even showed up on grid. And I probably could've done it in a t1 fit. 5 minutes ratting in nullsec and I recovered the ISK and sec loss. I'm all for making Hulks gankable in highsec but I'd like to see doing it require something like a gang of what I was flying, or maybe a high-DPS cruiser (Thorax) or BC hull to do it. Hulks very rarely are tanked. You will know when you slam into a supertank hulk
This, good luck killing a tankhulk in a dessie. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:55:00 -
[799] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard...
Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:55:00 -
[800] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships. Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec. Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff. Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this?
I remember when the default mining ship was the dual rep 10 drone domi, that was proper mining.
|
|
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:58:00 -
[801] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships. Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec. Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff. Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this?
The problem with your argument is that they CAN get a hefty tank on them and they have been in low sec and 0.0 for years. |
Ai Shun
635
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 21:59:00 -
[802] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold?
Why then don't we already have a ship that is godlike in combat, can mine, run exploration sites, open jump bridges, run links, etc.?
Because we work off what the hulls can provide. Same as all the other corporations.
The Mining barges are optimised for mining. Similar to having a supply vehicle in the real world. Yes, you can probably armour and arm a supply vehicle until it equates to a tank but you have no real cargo space then, do you? So what is the answer? An escort. Or, you use a medium armour vehicle with lower cargo capacity and accept the trade-off.
As I said earlier, many Caldari State corporations would happily sell you a hull capable of surviving and mining. But they will not be as focussed as an ORE mining barge. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:00:00 -
[803] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard...
Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold?
Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:00:00 -
[804] - Quote
ok so this thread went from 38 pages down to 33 so we know ccp is reading/removing troll posts... it will be interesting what the resutls of this debate will yeild in the eyes of ccp... or better yet...
getting ccp yitersomething or other to comment would be awesome... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:03:00 -
[805] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The problem with your argument is that they CAN get a hefty tank on them and they have been in low sec and 0.0 for years. They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:05:00 -
[806] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man.
Then we must have a lot of drowning men. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:07:00 -
[807] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship.
So blame the victim entirely, right? |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:10:00 -
[808] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship.
So blame the victim entirely, right?
Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer? |
Ai Shun
636
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:11:00 -
[809] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Because it all comes back to "balance", doesn't it? So where's the balance point? Threads like these show there is some difference of oppinion. Gankbears blame the victim, many others blame game mechanics or the ship it self.
It does. And that is why your argument of having a mining capable barge that can be tanked like a combat vessel while retaining the same mining yield is flawed. It would be unbalanced.
So you choose - you compromise mining in favour of tank, switch to a more combat capable hull,get a buddy to fly escort for you or die in a fire because you are trying to mine in a purposefully built mining vessel without defences in low-sec.
|
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:16:00 -
[810] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Whitehound wrote: They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man.
Then we must have a lot of drowning men. This we do. |
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:17:00 -
[811] - Quote
The Hulk is the largest craft in the second generation of mining vessels created by the ORE Syndicate. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining modules. They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available.
highlighted the important part....
for the ship now to be resilient it has to give up being the "the most efficient mining vessel available."
by the way ccp designed the ship its supposed to have a balanced tank and mining yield but clearly to be efficient at either one it has to give up on the other...
and dont compare it to a combat vessel because its not so saying a deimos has to give up tank to fit gank is mute because a deimos is not a mining ship. PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:17:00 -
[812] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?
We can blame the civilian ship building industry. You do recall where you said "It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship"
So why does a civilian industrial ship. as you claim it is, not built for combat, have any ability to tank at all? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6052
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:19:00 -
[813] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. GǪexcept that it tanks just as well as many combat ships and even some T2 cruisers.
Quote:And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec. GǪwhich still isn't true, even if you keep repeating it.
Quote:Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You mean ships like the Hulk? People use it to mine in lowsec and even nullsec with some frequency.
Adunh Slavy wrote:So blame the victim entirely, right? The people who choose to fit their ships improperly are entirely at fault for fitting their ships improperly, yes.
Quote:We can blame the civilian ship building industry. No we can't, because they have no say in the victim's decision to fit his ship improperly. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:21:00 -
[814] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:So you choose - you compromise mining in favour of tank, switch to a more combat capable hull,get a buddy to fly escort for you or die in a fire because you are trying to mine in a purposefully built mining vessel without defences in low-sec.
Low sec? For the most part this conversation is about high sec. Low sec is likely safer if you find a backwater system with very light traffic. |
baltec1
1086
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:22:00 -
[815] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer?
We can blame the civilian ship building industry. You do recall where you said "It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship" So why does a civilian industrial ship. as you claim it is, not built for combat, have any ability to tank at all?
Just because its not a combat vessel doesn't mean they come with no amour plating or the ability to add to its defences. Its not the ships fault a pilot choses not to tank it. It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:24:00 -
[816] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Who else is to blaim for their ship not being able to tank a destroyer? Let us not talk about blame. It is CCP's job to look after the balance.
Do you believe it is right when a ship, which costs more than 300m ISKs and is in such a need to have become the most popular ship, should only allow for two options, either to tank or to get ganked?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6052
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:33:00 -
[817] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Well, isn't it what also constantly happen when women get violated IRL? It's not like mindsets change so much. Did you just compare **** to a game, you twisted little ****?!
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:34:00 -
[818] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it. Well, isn't it what also constantly happen when women get violated IRL? It's not like mindsets change so much. lol is fitting a tank on a hulk really this hard for you 'people'? |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:34:00 -
[819] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Well, isn't it what also constantly happen when women get violated IRL? It's not like mindsets change so much.
Yes. But I think we should avoid side tracking this thread into that realm out of good taste, if nothing else. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:35:00 -
[820] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it. There is nobody else to blame.
Except the fact that it is an industrial civilian ship, as you pointed out. |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:37:00 -
[821] - Quote
hulk buff advocates are literally the stupidest people in eve |
baltec1
1087
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:37:00 -
[822] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it. There is nobody else to blame. Except the fact that it is an industrial civilian ship, as you pointed out.
and this stops you from tanking it how? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6052
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:37:00 -
[823] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Except the fact that it is an industrial civilian ship, as you pointed out. GǪthat the victim picked and fitted poorly. At every step of the way, it was the victim's choice.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:39:00 -
[824] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: and this stops you from tanking it how?
Oh is there a point to putting on a two papers thin tank on a civilian industrial ship in what amounts to a near constant combat zone? |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
95
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:42:00 -
[825] - Quote
I've been masochistically reading this entire shitpost, thought I'd add a bit to it.
I've been working my way towards a Pilgrim for a time and I thought I'd compare the Hulk's base tank (apparently worth 300m ISK) vs. the Pilgrim's base tank (roughly 190m ISK IIRC). I mention cost because some people think it matters.
Hulk base (pyfa, All V) - 9145 EHP Pilgrim base (pyfa, All V) - 6926 EHP
One would expect the Pilgrim, a combat ship, to be able to handle a destroyer gank better than the Hulk, but apparently not. I can only conclude that the Hulk does, in fact, have a decent tank. Adding a briefcase should be second nature. "Fun fact: carebears are not necessary for the game to function." --áTippia |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6052
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:43:00 -
[826] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Oh is there a point to putting on a two papers thin tank on a civilian industrial ship in what amounts to a near constant combat zone? It protects you against the thing people are complaining about, so yes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:44:00 -
[827] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Considering it only has one job I would say yes. Then you did not consider all options, which is what happens when you try to discuss a topic with several people at once while trying to hold off arguments.
I say Good Night, because it is time for me to go to bed. o7 |
baltec1
1087
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:44:00 -
[828] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: and this stops you from tanking it how?
Oh is there a point to putting on a two papers thin tank on a civilian industrial ship in what amounts to a near constant combat zone?
so a destroyer now has the firepower of 4 to 5 arty tornadoes? Are you really this stupid? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
547
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:46:00 -
[829] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Well, isn't it what also constantly happen when women get violated IRL? It's not like mindsets change so much. Did you just compare **** to a game, you twisted little ****?!
Since days your post indeed blame a category of players of whatever and in every way.
I have this fresh news for you: new players are told by ISDs (not by orcs) to start with mining. It's also a profession widely chosen by non spaceships PvP addicts.
Your continuous flaming of people with a different mentality than your 2 braincells can conceive, is more twisted than any comparison I can make.
Start blaming yourself for your continuous and worthless bandwidth usage, you make a 3 pages thread become a 30 pages thread just by you harpying on somebody else.
It's fun to see you waste hours a day on a sci fi forum but that's where the utility of your posts ends.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
619
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:46:00 -
[830] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: so a destroyer now has the firepower of 4 to 5 arty tornadoes? Are you really this stupid?
So you want to insult and avoid the question. Got it. |
|
baltec1
1088
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:49:00 -
[831] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote: so a destroyer now has the firepower of 4 to 5 arty tornadoes? Are you really this stupid?
So you want to insult and avoid the question. Got it.
I have answered your question 3 times now on this page. It is only right that I call you out on being stupid for saying stupid things. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6052
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:50:00 -
[832] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Since days your post indeed blame a category of players of whatever and in every way. Yes: the category of players who fit their ship poorly and then complain about the game design when their decision not to fit a tank means their ships are weak.
Quote:I have this fresh news for you: new players are told by ISDs (not by orcs) to start with mining. It's also a profession widely chosen by non spaceships PvP addicts. So? Are they being told that it's the game's fault that they choose not to fit a tank? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
596
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:52:00 -
[833] - Quote
Though I'd like to see Hulks getting buffed with more HP (and be able to use 5 heavy drones or sentries), I'd like to point out a common oversight:
Covetor * Mining Barge Skill Bonus: 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level.
Hulk * Mining Barge Skill Bonus: 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level, 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances per level * Exhumers Skill Bonus: 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level, 3% reduction in Ice Harvester duration per level * Prerequisite: Exhumers 3
With Exhumers 5 that's a built-in 15% MLU or IHU. No slot, CPU, or grid required.
So a MSE Hulk fit yields the same or better than a 1x MLU II (+9% yield) or 1x IHU II (-9% duration) Covetor, but with a lot more EHP, which is in-line with the Hulk's intended role: "They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space."
[Hulk, EHP] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Damage Control II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Vespa EC-600 x5 |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:52:00 -
[834] - Quote
"guys i keep flying my hulk into rancer and it keeps dying, ccp make exhumers have a rancer-specific bonus to ehp"
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Belshazzar Babylon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:59:00 -
[835] - Quote
How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. I see folks saying that 25-30k EHP is even more than some combat ships. Those ships can speed tank though, something that Hulks fat ass can't do. |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:02:00 -
[836] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:baltec1 wrote:It is entirely down to the pilot if their hulk dies to a destroyer gank. So again, blame the victim. No other possible cause or solutions, got it. There is nobody else to blame. Except the fact that it is an industrial civilian ship, as you pointed out.
You are starting to remind me of that old piece of software that came with the original release SoundBlasters. Around the time when the Gravis Ultrasound was considered "cool".
"Tank it, escort it, fly a different hull and accept the lower mining yield or die when under heavy attack"
To which I expect a response like "Under heavy attack where?" or "Under heavy attack why?"
Like turning the last part of any post into a question, picking at the edge cases and completely ignoring the fundamentals of any of the logic that has been presented to you. Even to the point of taking the concept of an overpowered ship and saying it would be unbalanced but turning around and saying that should be the case for a mining barge.
Are you here to have a sensible discussion? |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:02:00 -
[837] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. I see folks saying that 25-30k EHP is even more than some combat ships. Those ships can speed tank though, something that Hulks fat ass can't do.
shush dont be logical its upsets tippa and baltec... they dont like it at all... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6053
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:04:00 -
[838] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. GǪand the question being asked in return is: so what if it can be ganked by a couple of destroyers? What's the problem? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:07:00 -
[839] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. I see folks saying that 25-30k EHP is even more than some combat ships. Those ships can speed tank though, something that Hulks fat ass can't do.
Hulks dont need to speed tank. The window for killing them lasts only a few seconds meaning the gankers need to alpha it or kill it in only a handfull of shots. You can already tank a hulk to the point where people need to bring a lot of firepower to do this which puts a supertank hulk well out of the range of destoryers who do it for profit which eliminates just about all of the gankers. The ones who will bring a gang of tornadoes only do so in big events where its worth doing it.
Very rarely will people gank a supertank hulk just for the hell of it because it is very expensive to do so. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
548
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:11:00 -
[840] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Since days your post indeed blame a category of players of whatever and in every way. Yes: the category of players who fit their ship poorly and then complain about the game design when their decision not to fit a tank means their ships are weak. When I had low SP I fitted my 'cane very poorly yet it could tank level 4 missions easy mode. There's still posts of mine of that time on the eve-survival website to verify that. I even went to 0.0 on the same ship and guess what, I tanked 0.0 stuff with meta zero tank just fine. I could still get well more than a hi sec 400M Hulk investment could ever hope to achieve, in a ship I paid 25M for. So, why I am allowed to slack and be puny SP for a 'cane and get same or more income but I am meant to have 1-2 years of training for all those full tank skills + T2 mods skills before hitting the first roid? Finally, for years and years, there was an unwritten contract: CCP gives you the sh!ttiest profession, so bad that basic bots do it AS good as players and in exchange that crappy profession is AFK. All the threads you will see from now on, is because the "contract" has been broken. Now it's full of gankers everywhere, the average of the ice systems I know went to about 2-3 ships popped a day to 18-24. I am neutral in this because I sell macks, hulks, catalysts, tornadoes, hurricanes, tempests but I also heavily swing trade on minerals so I cannot lose EVER. But I have to get it out of my skin, you present a black and white scenario that luckily CCP does not share, else this game would be as bland as a Flash F2P game. Quote:I have this fresh news for you: new players are told by ISDs (not by orcs) to start with mining. It's also a profession widely chosen by non spaceships PvP addicts. So? Are they being told that it's the game's fault that they choose not to fit a tank?
Fitting a tank is a waste. I said it in the other thread and I'll say in this one.
Nobody who (hi sec and low sec) mines for REAL puts more than rat-survival worthy tank, the cheapest the better. Those who mine for REAL don't even do those stupid things like pretending to stay aligned and so on. Any ganker knows to scram and to bump any way.
Those who mine for REAL have their organization working for with and for them and only major events like Hulkageddon can make them dock. The average ganker gets intercepted and podded before he does so much.
Those who can't afford this, should stick to a zero tank, max yield insured covetor. Or factor in the hulk / mack loss as cost of the profession.
Leave the 32K EHP fits for those who whiteknight on the forums, and whose hulks is 3 years old because it never left an hangar. My industry alts Hulks have more than 3 years and so my macks fleet and they have meta 2 tanks and they are out every time mining becomes worthwhile.
If they pop? No problem, it's factored in. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6053
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:21:00 -
[841] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:So, why I am allowed to slack and be puny SP for a 'cane and get same or more income but I am meant to have 1-2 years of training for all those full tank skills + T2 mods skills before hitting the first roid? Because the drone regions ruined mining.
Quote:But I have to get it out of my skin, you present a black and white scenario that luckily CCP does not share, else this game would be as bland as a Flash F2P game. GǪand what scenario is that?
Quote:Fitting a tank is a waste. I said it in the other thread and I'll say in this one. So not losing your ship to even the most lame gank attempt is a waste? Requiring the gankers to mount a proper attack (which is just too much work, so they won't do it and find an easier target) is a waste? Fitting a tank saves the ship in the scenarios being complained about here. That's pretty much all there is to it.
The entire line of complaint comes from people choosing to make their ships weak, when they could equally choose not to, and they want to blame the game; the gankers; the world; anyone for the choice they made themselves.
Quote:Those who mine for REAL don't even do those stupid things like pretending to stay aligned and so on. Any ganker knows to scram and to bump any way. GǪexcept, of course, that staying aligned means neither of those two will work GÇö you can't bump or scram a ship that isn't there.
Quote:If they pop? No problem, it's factored in. So there's no real reason to buff the Hulk then, as expected. It also means that the GÇ£contractGÇ¥ you imagined is irrelevant GÇö even if it existed, it never mattered. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:22:00 -
[842] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When I had low SP I fitted my 'cane very poorly yet it could tank level 4 missions easy mode. There's still posts of mine of that time on the eve-survival website to verify that. I even went to 0.0 on the same ship and guess what, I tanked 0.0 stuff with meta zero tank just fine.
I could still get well more than a hi sec 400M Hulk investment could ever hope to achieve, in a ship I paid 25M for.
So, why I am allowed to slack and be puny SP for a 'cane and get same or more income but I am meant to have 1-2 years of training for all those full tank skills + T2 mods skills before hitting the first roid?
Same reason why a 4 billion isk jump freighter cant do what your cane does. The hulk isnt a combat ship, that not its job. |
Belshazzar Babylon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:29:00 -
[843] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Belshazzar Babylon wrote:How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. GǪand the question being asked in return is: so what if it can be ganked by a couple of destroyers? What's the problem?
Well the destroyers recently got a pretty decent buff. What would it hurt to update a hulk? |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:31:00 -
[844] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:
Well the destroyers recently got a pretty decent buff. What would it hurt to update a hulk?
The destroyers needed a buff to make them effective in combat. The hulk works perfectly fine. Thats the difference. |
Belshazzar Babylon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:35:00 -
[845] - Quote
What would it hurt to update a hulk? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6053
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:44:00 -
[846] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:Well the destroyers recently got a pretty decent buff. What would it hurt to update a hulk? There's no particular reason to update it. Updating it for no reason just gives rise to power creep.
So the question remains: so what if it can be ganked by a couple of destroyers? What's the problem?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
549
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:46:00 -
[847] - Quote
Tippia wrote:]Because the drone regions ruined mining.
No, give a couple of months, enough people will have flocked to mining to make it crap again. It's the nature of the economy. By that time I'll be well out of it along with those who knew when to enter early in the competition and reap the benefits.
Tippia wrote:GǪand what scenario is that?
Your opinions you are copy pasting since tens of pages. Just because you spam it more, does not force anyone to agree with them.
Tippia wrote:Quote:Fitting a tank is a waste. I said it in the other thread and I'll say in this one. So not losing your ship to even the most lame gank attempt is a waste? Requiring the gankers to mount a proper attack (which is just too much work, so they won't do it and find an easier target) is a waste? Fitting a tank saves the ship in the scenarios being complained about here. That's pretty much all there is to it.
You evidently never had to deal with a competing corp or with appropriate gankers. You are not going to save ships meant to not be saved, period. What works is to quickly work to the roots and eradicate that corp or perma-pod the gankers. It's done, it's fun, there are specialized mercs for that.
Tippia wrote: The entire line of complaint comes from people choosing to make their ships weak, when they could equally choose not to, and they want to blame the game; the gankers; the world; anyone for the choice they made themselves.
No, they complain because they either want an AFK profession or a lucrative one. Since the last patches it's not AFK any more, while the income has increased by 20-30% not by 300%. The more tank requests are a consequence of the loss of AFK-ability (for some) or the consequence of the loss of AFK-ability vs not correspondingly risen income.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
549
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:46:00 -
[848] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept, of course, that staying aligned means neither of those two will work GÇö you can't bump or scram a ship that isn't there.
You will NEVER achieve 100% attention for 8-12 hours. Your chances to be there and fully attentive to the right game client out of 4-8 for the about 2-3 seconds needed to have you scrammed are minimal. Your chances against a trailing disco warp in are left for you to guess. Right today I was playing training target (!) with a merc corp studying how to kill the latter kind of attack, they had to study for 2 hours to find a somewhat functioning counter.
Tippia wrote:Quote:If they pop? No problem, it's factored in. So there's no real reason to buff the Hulk then, as expected. It also means that the GÇ£contractGÇ¥ you imagined is irrelevant GÇö even if it existed, it never mattered.
I don't care that much, but there's no real reason not to give it 1 shield extender. It's a civilian ship but there's no civilian space in EvE. You always undock in a situation of war.
Also, sure, the contract is irrelevant for you, the endless threads that you will see in the next months will show you that it was relevant for many others.
Anyway good night, 2am here. I know you'll begin your batch "counter reply forever" because your insecurity issues force you to get the last word but I don't care. The other readers can make their free idea with or without boring quoting ping pongs. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
620
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:46:00 -
[849] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: I have answered your question 3 times now on this page. It is only right that I call you out on being stupid for saying stupid things.
I exposed your contradiction and you have to resort to whining, too bad. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
620
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:49:00 -
[850] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote: Are you here to have a sensible discussion?
If flying a civilian ship into a combat zone is sensible as well, then yes. What are you here to do, ensure the sheep stay tied to the stake so the dogs have an easier time? |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
549
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:51:00 -
[851] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Same reason why a 4 billion isk jump freighter cant do what your cane does. The hulk isnt a combat ship, that not its job.
Nobody pretends an hulk to be a 'cane.
But there's the "is this ship crap or not" skin feeling and I can safely say that a 'cane or drake are VERY good investments, those ships ROCK (and when I played them, they were just 25M), they handle nicely, they tank nicely, they just look "correct" and up to the task, everywhere from hi sec to 0.0 to WH.
Now, I don't even want to think about how "up to the task" would be to have a mackinaw mining in 0.0. once a battleship spawn targets it. Yes it mines. That's it.
The rest is completely crap, the ship does not feel "right", in the same way of flying an Amarr frigate without laser bonus just does not feel right even if they are overpowered when you fit turrets.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Avila Cracko
312
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:51:00 -
[852] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Belshazzar Babylon wrote:How would buffing the Hulk to allow it to fit a LSE, or giving more PG make it OP? Are people suddenly going to start taking them into fleet fights? They would still be gankable, just not by a couple of destroyers. I see folks saying that 25-30k EHP is even more than some combat ships. Those ships can speed tank though, something that Hulks fat ass can't do. shush dont be logical its upsets tippa and baltec... they dont like it at all...
Don't hold your breath. You see that here are only few people that are so passionate about "OP Hulk" It would kill their "Titan in the pants" Many people wrote valid arguments but its not ok for them. And yea... i saw i this thread that... i think Tippia said that we all must buy stuff only in Jita because thats only valid market in EVE. (you know, thats only place in EVE where hw found that some ships are more expensive so thats only proof and **** the rest of EVE, CCP can just shut it down)
Logic here wont pass. Who write more posts, and dont have life so can post all day long, he will win. truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
582
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 23:53:00 -
[853] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So the question remains: so what if it can be ganked by a couple of destroyers? What's the problem?
The answer to your question is... drum role... do enough people care enough about it to create a big enough of a stink, to make CCP care about it? If the answer is yes then it becomes a problem. If not, then there is no problem. Reason being? CCP is a reactive real life corporation and does not give a damn about people's arm-chair-forum-warrior game balancing. They care about profits and a happy, sedentary (and let's not forget cowed) player base. That goes for miners, PVP'ers and "spy masters" alike. Anyone willing to happily hand over their credit card information. It does not matter what their personal reasons for doing so are, so long as they do it.
Reality of EVE in a nutshell.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:04:00 -
[854] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:No, give a couple of months, enough people will have flocked to mining to make it crap again. It's the nature of the economy. By that time I'll be well out of it along with those who knew when to enter early in the competition and reap the benefits. And yet, miners being the sole source of minerals will unquestionably let miners earn more money.
Quote:Your opinions you are copy pasting since tens of pages. Just because you spam it more, does not force anyone to agree with them. GǪwhich doesn't answer the question: what scenario are you talking about?
Quote:You evidently never had to deal with a competing corp or with appropriate gankers. You are not going to save ships meant to not be saved, period. What works is to quickly work to the roots and eradicate that corp or perma-pod the gankers. It's done, it's fun, there are specialized mercs for that. So, again, ganking isn't really a problem, and buffing the Hulk is quite unnecessary.
As for the AFK:abilityGǪ one really has to question at this point whether or not it has actually changed in any way. Are more people really being ganked now? Is being AFK really any more risky? Does that tank really not work while you're AFK? Is a bigger tank really needed, especially considering that the one the Hulk can already mount also already stops the gank ships everyone seems to be complaining about?
Quote:I don't care that much, but there's no real reason not to give it 1 shield extender. It's a civilian ship but there's no civilian space in EvE. You always undock in a situation of war. The reason not to give it a shield extender is that very little in the way of a reasonable argument has been presented why it needs it. It can already tank any kind of casual gank. Your stance is that tanking it doesn't make much sense anyway. So why does it need that extender? What problem does it solve?
Quote:Also, sure, the contract is irrelevant for you, the endless threads that you will see in the next months will show you that it was relevant for many others. It's not irrelevant to me GÇö it doesn't exist to me, so it can't be irrelevant. What I'm saying is that, going by what you just said, it's completely irrelevant to you since you're a proper industrialist and have included all the cost of doing business in your business plan. At that point the imagined GÇ£low income vs. AFKabilityGÇ¥ contract no longer applies GÇö you're treating the matter completely differently, and are dealing with losses as normal write-offs. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:09:00 -
[855] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:[I exposed your contradiction and you have to resort to whining, too bad. Where was his contradiction?
Avila Cracko wrote:Many people wrote valid arguments but its not ok for them. Valid arguments are perfectly ok GÇö it's when people can't stand that you argue against those argument that it's no longer ok. When they get all frumpy because you ask them to back their claims and provide some actual arguments, it gets downright silly.
Quote:i think Tippia said that we all must buy stuff only in Jita because thats only valid market in EVE. Nope. I said that if you want to make a comparison, you need to ensure that the points you compare are actually comparable GÇö Jita offers a spot where such points are available.
Eternum Praetorian wrote:The answer to your question is... drum [roll]... do enough people care enough about it to create a big enough of a stink, to make CCP care about it? If the answer is yes then it becomes a problem. If not, then there is no problem. Reason being? CCP is a reactive real life corporation and does not give a damn about people's arm-chair-forum-warrior game balancing. They care about profits and a happy, sedentary (and let's not forget cowed) player base. That goes for miners, PVP'ers, forum warriors and "spy masters" alike. Anyone willing to happily hand over their credit card information. It does not matter what their personal reasons for doing so are, so long as they do it.
Reality of EVE in a nutshell. Fair enough. To that I'll answer with the imagined CSM/CCP exchange posted earlier: as long as the Hulk is the (or among the) most popular ship in the game, it will be quite tricky to convince CCP that it needs any kind of buff. Ships that end up in that spot rather tend to be slated for nerfsGǪ vOv GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
549
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:32:00 -
[856] - Quote
Tippia wrote:And yet, miners being the sole source of minerals will unquestionably let miners earn more money.
Collectively yes but it's just natural that when everybody jump on a bandwagon, the bandwagon heavily tanks. If you lived more in game and less on the forums you'd see people SPAMMING WTB miner account like I have never seen, even on chats that have nothing to do with mining (today even on SCC Lounge). Time 2-3-4 months and (as due by natural economy laws) the overabundance of miners will drive *their net income* down (notice: not necessarily mineral prices).
Tippia wrote:GǪwhich doesn't answer the question: what scenario are you talking about?
I hope you are joking. No probably you don't. I am not as kind as Adun, I'll let you figure out by yourself.
Tippia wrote: So, again, ganking isn't really a problem, and buffing the Hulk is quite unnecessary.
Nothing is necessary, many things are done even if not necessary. MMOs are partly player pressure driven, if enough people will demand it, it'll probably happen. It'd make sense, because as former FW player I well know how BAD yet expensive were destroyers and they needed a buff. This caused collateral consequences and CCP as usual lets stuff go on for some months before adjusting it. If enough people will get killed and enough threads will be made, CCP will buff hulks. Hey, they let balance abominations like Tengus exist, they won't suddenly kill the game by adding some buffer on an hulk.
I am actually more interested about Macks though. Those are a sad joke, Hulks in comparisons are stalwart hauberks.
Tippia wrote: As for the AFK:abilityGǪ one really has to question at this point whether or not it has actually changed in any way. Are more people really being ganked now?
Log in, press F10, check ice systems. I am sure you know all including how many kills were done till Dec 2011 and then in 2012. In case you don't, the average of the systems I know best, went up from about 2-4 pops a day to 14-24 before my friends.... ehm... fixed them. Of course the latter has a cost that only serious mining operations can afford.
Tippia wrote:So why does it need that extender? What problem does it solve?
Destroyers needed a buff for PvP. Now, I don't know how many more people use destroyers for PvP vs before but what I am sure is that the emergent EvE players quickly found out a "leak": the PvP buff also made them hugely better at suicide ganking mining ships. An extender would plug that leak. Now here comes what I nor you can prove: that is you will believe the leak is intended while I think it's just CCP who as usual did half of their stuff and forgot the rest.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
552
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:33:00 -
[857] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Also, sure, the contract is irrelevant for you, the endless threads that you will see in the next months will show you that it was relevant for many others. It's not irrelevant to me GÇö it doesn't exist to me, so it can't be irrelevant. What I'm saying is that, going by what you just said, it's completely irrelevant to you since you're a proper industrialist and have included all the cost of doing business in your business plan. At that point the imagined GÇ£low income vs. AFKabilityGÇ¥ contract no longer applies GÇö you're treating the matter completely differently, and are dealing with losses as normal write-offs.[/quote]
I happily admit my opinions are just that and don't present them as the Bible laws carved in stone. Therefore while I don't need buffs for Hulks (I'd like Macks were less pathetic though), others seems to. The majority usually wins. If you'll see 100 threads like this in the next months (just let enough people jump into mining and get their slap) it's quite possible a buff will happen.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:34:00 -
[858] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:If flying a civilian ship into a combat zone is sensible as well, then yes. What are you here to do, ensure the sheep stay tied to the stake so the dogs have an easier time?
It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
263
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:37:00 -
[859] - Quote
I wrote an article several months ago discussing hulk fittings and the like:
Here it is: https://griefer-geddon.eve-industrialist.com/FightingHulkageddonv3.htm
The fits I suggested for the hulk have already been posted in this forum.
However, there is an important dichotomy between Mining and Shooting in this game. Mining is very laid back, where you don't need to be vigilant. The shooting side of this game is much more dynamic, where playing involves a constant watch on whats happening so they can respond approrpiately. Frankly, these two play styles don't mix well. As the person who's not vigilant will die horribly to those that are. I honestly think that small changes to the system are in order.
Here are some important points: 1.) A Mackinaw CANNOT be tanked enough to survive a suicide Tornado attack.... Concord response times, in 0.7 sec and lower, are greater than 15s( at least, last time I checked in January). Any Arty Tornado deals 12k per shot, and a fully tanked Makinaw has less than 24k EHP. Granted, with skilled fleet boosters.... it MIGHT survive that second shot, but its not a given!!!!
2.) The Hulk can be fit with a good tank. It can hit 30k EHP, and fleet + Heat can put it into the mid 30's... but this is not a significant amount of EHP in todays suicide gank world, as a Talos can often dish out that much damage before CC arrives.
Given the increase in dessie dps, and the awesome gank of tier 3 BC's, I think a review of the exhumer class ships is very much appropriate.... The fact that you cannot tank a Mack to survive highsec ganks speaks volumes IMO. I think a well tanked Exhumer with all rigs/mids/lows dedicated to fitting tank, it should be able to withstand ONE suicide BC ship.
With about 30% more CPU, the mack could fit a 30k EHP tank...... (perhaps 1-5 pg more to smooth its fitting ) With about 5% more CPU, about 5 PG, and increase the shield resist bonus from 7.5 to 10% per level. The hulk would sport about a 40k EHP tank before gang boosts....
These would not be "CCP SAVE ME" changes... as fitting even 1 Laser upgrde would significantly compromise the tank by 10k+ EHP. Essentially, there needs to be a balance between tank and yield, where tanked fits can actually stand a reasonable chance of survival.
Truth be told, most miners I know will still NOT bother to tank their fits.... and that is the CHOICE the make... I just think the choice needs to be a real choice... especially in the case of Mackinaws... Also, groups of attackers can take out exhumers just fine, as it should be.... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
552
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:41:00 -
[860] - Quote
I took the liberty to make your post visible. Thanks again for the most pathetic forums EVER created in the whole universe.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:I wrote an article several months ago discussing hulk fittings and the like: Here it is: Fighting HulkageddonThe fits I suggested for the hulk have already been posted in this forum. However, there is an important dichotomy between Mining and Shooting in this game. Mining is very laid back, where you don't need to be vigilant. The shooting side of this game is much more dynamic, where playing involves a constant watch on whats happening so they can respond approrpiately. Frankly, these two play styles don't mix well. As the person who's not vigilant will die horribly to those that are. I honestly think that small changes to the system are in order. Here are some important points: 1.) A Mackinaw CANNOT be tanked enough to survive a suicide Tornado attack.... Concord response times, in 0.7 sec and lower, are greater than 15s( at least, last time I checked in January). Any Arty Tornado deals 12k per shot, and a fully tanked Makinaw has less than 24k EHP. Granted, with skilled fleet boosters.... it MIGHT survive that second shot, but its not a given!!!! 2.) The Hulk can be fit with a good tank. It can hit 30k EHP, and fleet + Heat can put it into the mid 30's... but this is not a significant amount of EHP in todays suicide gank world, as a Talos can often dish out that much damage before CC arrives. Given the increase in dessie dps, and the awesome gank of tier 3 BC's, I think a review of the exhumer class ships is very much appropriate.... The fact that you cannot tank a Mack to survive highsec ganks speaks volumes IMO. I think a well tanked Exhumer with all rigs/mids/lows dedicated to fitting tank, it should be able to withstand ONE suicide BC ship. With about 30 percent more CPU, the mack could fit a 30k EHP tank...... (perhaps 1-5 pg more to smooth its fitting ) With about 5 percent more CPU, about 5 PG, and increase the shield resist bonus from 7.5 to 10 percent per level. The hulk would sport about a 40k EHP tank before gang boosts.... These would not be "CCP SAVE ME" changes... as fitting even 1 Laser upgrde would significantly compromise the tank by 10k+ EHP. Essentially, there needs to be a balance between tank and yield, where tanked fits can actually stand a reasonable chance of survival. Truth be told, most miners I know will still NOT bother to tank their fits.... and that is the CHOICE the make... I just think the choice needs to be a real choice... especially in the case of Mackinaws... Also, groups of attackers can take out exhumers just fine, as it should be....
Also, beware. You will be called hi sec bear for saying this, even with your corp tag Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
620
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:42:00 -
[861] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote: It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.
Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better.
|
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:51:00 -
[862] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:I really good post...
good read sir PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:54:00 -
[863] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Collectively yes but it's just natural that when everybody jump on a bandwagon, the bandwagon heavily tanks. If you lived more in game and less on the forums you'd see people SPAMMING WTB miner account like I have never seen, even on chats that have nothing to do with mining (today even on SCC Lounge). Time 2-3-4 months and (as due by natural economy laws) the overabundance of miners will drive *their net income* down (notice: not necessarily mineral prices). GǪand in spite of having been in the game for most of the evening, I haven't seen it. Of course, maybe that has more to do with me not using any of the in-game chat channels, because I have no need for them. So you can pipe down with that attitude, ok?
Anyway, the entire point here was that your claim was silly to begin with: the training times you mentioned were not true and the reasons miners earn less is because they have been receiving undue competition from other sources.
Quote:I hope you are joking. No, I'm asking you: what scenario is that? If you're going to take the Adunh route, I will treat you the same as Adhun and keep repeating the question, either until you answer it or until it becomes abundantly clear that you were just trolling and failed to score a cheap point. As always, I hope it'll be the first one.
Quote:Nothing is necessary, many things are done even if not necessary. MMOs are partly player pressure driven, if enough people will demand it, it'll probably happen. The thing is, though, that past experiences tell a rather different story. Even if many people demand something, they need to provide a reason for it, and GÇ£just becauseGÇ¥ don't seem to cut it, so far. In this case, in particular, that usage number will be a honking great roadblock to proving that anything needs to be done. You're quite right GÇö if enough get killed, then maybe they will start thinking about it, but so far, nothing seems to suggest that anything of the sort is happening.
Quote:Log in, press F10, check ice systems. I am sure you know all including how many kills were done till Dec 2011 and then in 2012. In case you don't, the average of the systems I know best, went up from about 2-4 pops a day to 14-24 before my friends.... ehm... fixed them. Of course the latter has a cost that only serious mining operations can afford. Fair enough. I have no idea what systems have ica (and I can't be arsed to look it up) because I don't mine it and I don't gank. Either way, what you say just tells me that nothing really needs to be fixed GÇö we already have the solution in our hands and it may even be improved upon in Inferno.
Quote:I happily admit my opinions are just that and don't present them as the Bible laws carved in stone. Therefore while I don't need buffs for Hulks (I'd like Macks were less pathetic though), others seems to. The majority usually wins. If you'll see 100 threads like this in the next months (just let enough people jump into mining and get their slap) it's quite possible a buff will happen. GǪalternatively GÇö and far better for everyone GÇö they jump in, get slapped, and jump out, leaving you with a bigger piece of the pie.
Anyway, this is essentially the same as the point made above about player pressure: so far, pressure without any reasoning behind it doesn't seem to have yielded much of a result, and pressure contrary to fact has yielded even less. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 00:57:00 -
[864] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better. No, Baltec is more likely to make the same claim he has made throughout the thread: that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
398
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:08:00 -
[865] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tippia wrote:Also, sure, the contract is irrelevant for you, the endless threads that you will see in the next months will show you that it was relevant for many others. It's not irrelevant to me GÇö it doesn't exist to me, so it can't be irrelevant. What I'm saying is that, going by what you just said, it's completely irrelevant to you since you're a proper industrialist and have included all the cost of doing business in your business plan. At that point the imagined GÇ£low income vs. AFKabilityGÇ¥ contract no longer applies GÇö you're treating the matter completely differently, and are dealing with losses as normal write-offs.
I happily admit my opinions are just that and don't present them as the Bible laws carved in stone. Therefore while I don't need buffs for Hulks (I'd like Macks were less pathetic though), others seems to. The majority usually wins. If you'll see 100 threads like this in the next months (just let enough people jump into mining and get their slap) it's quite possible a buff will happen. [/quote]
Ya me neither cause I dont tank the hulk anyways but then Ive never lost one either
Ai Shun wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:If flying a civilian ship into a combat zone is sensible as well, then yes. What are you here to do, ensure the sheep stay tied to the stake so the dogs have an easier time? It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.
gotta add stupidly dont check out the system ahead of time with the resources ptovided so youre mining somwhere thare are for some reason other ppl. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:08:00 -
[866] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, Baltec is more likely to make the same claim he has made throughout the thread: that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy.
and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then? PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:12:00 -
[867] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then? Then the miner is out one Hulk and the attacker is out one Talos. So what? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:15:00 -
[868] - Quote
your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."
your argument is fit either for tank or for income... but even if you fit for tank you will still die... so what exactly is your point?
you own a 1400 II bpo and nuetron blaster cannon II bpo or something? PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
398
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:16:00 -
[869] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Tippia wrote:No, Baltec is more likely to make the same claim he has made throughout the thread: that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy.
and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then?
get a new one with the profits made on your missioning char, go to a system where there are no ppl, mine.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:17:00 -
[870] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Ai Shun wrote: It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.
Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better.
We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:
(a) Tank the ship at the expense of mining yield (b) Have a friend or alt fly escort for you (c) Fly a different hull that is safer, but yields less
It is not a stupid ship, unless you personally choose to ignore all the options and continuously beat your head against the wall. I can't help you with that. You need to make the choice to step away from that wall. |
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Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
398
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:18:00 -
[871] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."
your argument is fit either for tank or for income... but even if you fit for tank you will still die... so what exactly is your point?
you own a 1400 II bpo and nuetron blaster cannon II bpo or something?
or a covetor BPO
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
398
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:20:00 -
[872] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Ai Shun wrote: It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.
Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better. We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose: (a) Tank the ship at the expense of mining yield (b) Have a friend or alt fly escort for you (c) Fly a different hull that is safer, but yields less It is not a stupid ship, unless you personally choose to ignore all the options and continuously beat your head against the wall. I can't help you with that. You need to make the choice to step away from that wall.
d.) dont tank it and mine in systems where there are NO PEOPLE
why do ppl ignore that?
My main's been mining since the age of T20 minus skill time to get into a hulk and I tink the only ship ive ever lost was a noctis running missions when there was a war
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:24:00 -
[873] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."
your argument is fit either for tank or for income... GǪno, my argument is that complaining that it can't tank if you fit no tank is stupid and it's not something that requires a change to the game to fix. In fact, changing the game doesn't fix it at all, so that's the wrong way to go regardless. As it happens, you can fit for both tank and income GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
620
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:36:00 -
[874] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote: We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:
The circles are the result of the narrow focus of the debate, a narrow focus the gankbear community wishes to maintain.
a) And get almost the same yeild as C for less cost and Risk. b) Consume somone else's time and share profits, which will profit below A or C. c) Profit, because the hulk is a stupid ship in the current environment.
D) Other options where the circles end. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
287
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:37:00 -
[875] - Quote
Tippia wrote:no, my argument is that complaining that it can't tank if you fit no tank is stupid and it's not something that requires a change to the game to fix. In fact, changing the game doesn't fix it at all, so that's the wrong way to go regardless. As it happens, you can fit for both tank and income.
dont see how best tank you can get is 40k in a 0.8 system you are looking at 14 second response time from concord...
gank talos with heat on does 6507 alpha ever 4.1 seconds... so lets say you have two talos thats 1314 alpha every 4.1 seconds that means 14/4.1= 3 - 4 shots before cc arrives... 1314*3= 3942 or 40k damage... so even in the best case you will die to just two of these...
[Talos, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor I Stasis Webifier I Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Warrior II x5
in today's game you can not effectively tank a hulk against gank...
i mean 3 of these things can kill an orca before cc arrives in a 0.6 system!
your response with be so what more dead ships means more isk for me...
well just admit that if they boost the hulk and its friends hp then you wont make as much isk... its ok to be selfish but just admit that is your point you dont want to loose out on isk... which imo is rather hypocritical if you ask me...
PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:42:00 -
[876] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:gank talos with heat on does 6507 alpha ever 4.1 seconds... so lets say you have two talos thats 1314 alpha every 4.1 seconds that means 14/4.1= 3 - 4 shots before cc arrives... 1314*3= 3942 or 40k damage... so even in the best case you will die to just two of these... Yes? So?
Quote:in today's game you can not effectively tank a hulk against gank... Sure you can, as long as the gank isn't well-organised, in which case the question becomes: no, why should you be able to?
Quote:i mean 3 of these things can kill an orca before cc arrives in a 0.6 system! Funny that. My Orca has ~300k EHP, so that would require them to put out about 3000 DPS. I feel strangely safe from three of them for some reasonGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
400
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:45:00 -
[877] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Ai Shun wrote: We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:
The circles are the result of the narrow focus of the debate, a narrow focus the gankbear community wishes to maintain. a) And get almost the same yeild as C for less cost and Risk. b) Consume somone else's time and share profits, which will profit below A or C. c) Profit, because the hulk is a stupid ship in the current environment. D) Other options where the circles end.
E) see my last post -.- https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Patrick Estemaire
EVE University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 01:56:00 -
[878] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
d.) dont tank it and mine in systems where there are NO PEOPLE
why do ppl ignore that?
My main's been mining since the age of T20 minus skill time to get into a hulk and I tink the only ship ive ever lost was a noctis running missions when there was a war
oh wauit no, got killed by arcturus deathbane and thesleeper before ther ewere warnings about what happens when you go into .4 an below
or if there were warnings I was new and stupid vOv
This. While a noob might mine right in busy systems, to make it easier on a ganker to find them, the wisdom comes quick enough to mine out in the middle of nowhere. I'd certainly think that someone who's flown a mining cruiser, then a Retty, would have figured that lesson out by the time they are buying a Hulk.
I'd love to see a dedicated mining barge above the hulk, but I don't think more tank is needed just better sense. Hey, the pirates gotta eat to... |
Jorma Amatin
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:25:00 -
[879] - Quote
Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.
By the way the hulk's tank is compromised because the hardware is dedicated for the strip miners and ore processing. If you want a damn tank then go fit mining laser IIs on a Rokh and use that instead. |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:33:00 -
[880] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The circles are the result of the narrow focus of the debate, a narrow focus the gankbear community wishes to maintain.
a) And get almost the same yeild as C for less cost and Risk. b) Consume somone else's time and share profits, which will profit below A or C. c) Profit, because the hulk is a stupid ship in the current environment.
D) Other options where the circles end.
For one, I am not a ganker. You are welcome to look for any killmails related to me. (This is my main character) Hint - you won't find any. I am primarily an Industrialist, operating around low sec areas with a love of hauling cargo (Crane based), the odd mining trip and the odd bit of exploration for fun and seeing the universe. So, no, not a part of the gankbear community.
However, I can see that you are looking for a ship that can fill all roles or will be overpowered for what it is doing. You're essentially saying "I want full safety from gankers without having to sacrifice mining yield".
And that is just not going to happen. It is against every single principle of trading strengths for weaknesses in EVE Online. I was hoping to illustrate that for you with the overpowered ship discussion we had earlier (that you agreed with me on) but I'm guessing it's not sinking in yet.
Ah well, I tried. Good luck! |
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Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:33:00 -
[881] - Quote
Jorma Amatin wrote:Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.
By the way the hulk's tank is compromised because the hardware is dedicated for the strip miners and ore processing. If you want a damn tank then go fit mining laser IIs on a Rokh and use that instead.
Have your second like. |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:33:00 -
[882] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:I think the hulk is actually a bit overpowered. It has too many low slots.
So it should have 1 low slot? Why? |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
269
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:35:00 -
[883] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with?
Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them.
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
620
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:41:00 -
[884] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote: For one, I am not a ganker. You are welcome to look for any killmails related to me. (This is my main character) Hint - you won't find any. I am primarily an Industrialist, operating around low sec areas with a love of hauling cargo (Crane based), the odd mining trip and the odd bit of exploration for fun and seeing the universe. So, no, not a part of the gankbear community.
However, I can see that you are looking for a ship that can fill all roles or will be overpowered for what it is doing. You're essentially saying "I want full safety from gankers without having to sacrifice mining yield".
You imply I make assumptions about you, then turn around and do the same in addition to making assumptions about my motives. Good luck with it. |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:45:00 -
[885] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Ai Shun wrote: For one, I am not a ganker. You are welcome to look for any killmails related to me. (This is my main character) Hint - you won't find any. I am primarily an Industrialist, operating around low sec areas with a love of hauling cargo (Crane based), the odd mining trip and the odd bit of exploration for fun and seeing the universe. So, no, not a part of the gankbear community.
However, I can see that you are looking for a ship that can fill all roles or will be overpowered for what it is doing. You're essentially saying "I want full safety from gankers without having to sacrifice mining yield".
You imply I make assumptions about you, then turn around and do the same in addition to making assumptions about my motives. Good luck with it.
Incorrect, unfortunately. I corrected your assumption. You are welcome to correct my assumption by static clearly what you want; because from reading your posts there is one message coming across. If that message is not correct, clarify.
Or you can keep on deflecting and jumping around the fringes. |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
269
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 02:57:00 -
[886] - Quote
Roime wrote:Why do people still insist on mining in hisec?
High security space is an area meant for new players to learn the game, and for people to come together to trade. The idea is clear, once you get the hang of the game, you move out of the noobzone and start playing.
If you can fly a T2 fitted Hulk, you should leave the cradle and join or form a corporation. There are no suicide gankers outside hisec, you can mine your heart out in corp/alliance mining operations in environments that you and your friends can control. Now is the the perfect time to leave cesspool behind and get rich.
Free your mind and your Hulk fill follow!
This would be true if EVE was linear. EVE is not, thus your statement makes no sense. SANDBOX!
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
620
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:20:00 -
[887] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:However, I can see that you are looking for a ship that can fill all roles or will be overpowered for what it is doing. You're essentially saying "I want full safety from gankers without having to sacrifice mining yield".
Or you can keep on deflecting and jumping around the fringes.
Never once made that request, Sorry. Please continue to make your assumptions. As for my motives, you'll excuse me if I don't illuminate them for you. If you have a problem with that, get over it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6054
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:26:00 -
[888] - Quote
Montevius Williams wrote:Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them. Yes you can. Both are non-combat ships for the industrial sector. What the flavour text says isn't particularly important (it says the Ferox is a very scary killing machine). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
287
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:32:00 -
[889] - Quote
In a few months the ferox will be... Replace range with rof a nd adf a low and mid slot... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
269
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:34:00 -
[890] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:Yea, by that amount (40%) increase tank of mining ships and we are happy. We are back on what was 6 months ago. That would make the buff pointless, so why on earth would they do something that stupid? Adunh Slavy wrote:Oh it's the players that are at fault Since it's the player who chooses to make himself easier to kill, and then complain about how easy he is to kill, yes. It is 100% the idiot's fault. Mystrak wrote:No. The orca is under the capital ships section. GǪand it requires no capital skills; no capital arrays; and CCP lists it in their ship charts as a GÇ£largeGÇ¥ ship, together with the battleships (and, incidentally, the freighters). So no, the Orca isn't really a capship GÇö the Rorqual is.
To a pilot, the Orca is a non cap ship
To a manufactuer, it is a cap ship |
|
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc Order of the Void
270
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:36:00 -
[891] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Montevius Williams wrote:Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them. Yes you can. Both are non-combat ships for the industrial sector. What the flavour text says isn't particularly important (it says the Ferox is a very scary killing machine).
Flavor text? lol
CCP needs to change the desciption. Its misleading. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:49:00 -
[892] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:
(a) Tank the ship at the expense of mining yield (b) Have a friend or alt fly escort for you (c) Fly a different hull that is safer, but yields less
(d) Fit for maximum yield, watch local, watch D-scan: remove your Hulk from space when suspicious looking people appear in local
I mined like this for one night. It was fun, and I was blissfully unaware that in the system one or two jumps away from me, about 100 Hulks died that day. I now have traversal bookmarks set up, so my Orca can move over the asteroid belt at 75% of maximum speed (1600mm armour plate is good for something after all) while the hulks vacuum up the rocks. This only works for max yield setups though, otherwise the rocks go out of range before I can suck them dry.
Of course, if CCP does something stupid to make mining "more interesting" my yield will go down and I'll probably start losing ships to gankers. Currently my attention is required, since the hulks can't hold two cycles worth of ore and complete a cycle in 2 minutes. Move ore, check targets, reactivate lasers on new rocks, check D-scan, repeat. Move ore, chuckle at a post on Twitter, swap back to realise there's a hurricane in my belt shooting the rats GǪ wow, thank goodness that wasn't a ganker.
Of course, if I wasn't concerned about ISK/hr I could have an extra character sitting in a tengu with siege links and siege warfare mind link, and another character in a loki with skirmish links/mindlink, and another in a Legion with armour links/mindlink, ensuring that my little fleet was a little more durable.
Individuals suffering under the misapprehension that mining is boring probably have trouble comprehending sentences constructed of more than twelve syllables.
|
Alara IonStorm
1976
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 03:58:00 -
[893] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Montevius Williams wrote:Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them. Yes you can. Both are non-combat ships for the industrial sector. What the flavour text says isn't particularly important (it says the Ferox is a very scary killing machine). The T1 Iteron is like the T1 Covetor in that they are both Paper.
The also T2 Viator and Occator who's "flavor text" and defense bonuses match the Hulks style.
The difference is that Transport Ships Slot Layout / Bonuses give them the Defense so promised.
|
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 04:03:00 -
[894] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Montevius Williams wrote:Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them. Yes you can. Both are non-combat ships for the industrial sector. What the flavour text says isn't particularly important (it says the Ferox is a very scary killing machine).
Are you actually comparing an Iteron to a Hulk?
The Iteron has the mass of a Cruiser, while a Hulk has four times the size.
Are you saying size doesn't matter?
That it only matters how the ship is used?
While I would put one above the other, I think completely ignoring size is a mistake. |
Yukikio
Zeon Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 04:26:00 -
[895] - Quote
Signed/
Time to move on with the times, having more ehp should be more awarding for the gankers anyway. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 05:38:00 -
[896] - Quote
People who say "just warp away when you see destroyer" don't even know how slow mining barges and exhumers are.
Let's do some comparing shall we?
Hulk has a align time of 16,68 seconds while sporting 20+k EHP. Triple plated Abaddon has align time of 14,60 seconds while sporting 200+k EHP.
So, could any of you EFT warriors give tank fit for Hulk with align time of less than 14,60 seconds. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:00:00 -
[897] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Both are non-combat ships for the industrial sector. What the flavour text says isn't particularly important (it says the Ferox is a very scary killing machine).
The Ferox is scary. If you see someone flying it, you know they're insane. That's scary.
Just based on size, position in the hierarchy, T2 vs T1 status, etc, the Hulk should have some extra PG. It has 3 more mid slots than a Covetor, but no extra PG. What goes in mid slots? Medium power requirement items: shield extenders, after burners, shield boosters, that kind of thing. It doesn't need much more: you can do amazing things just by sticking an MAPC II in one of the lows. So even 12 extra PG would be wonderful GÇö you'll still come up against the CPU limit if you fit T1 strip miners, 2 MLUs and a few shield mods GÇö but not overpowered. The pilot can then choose to implant a 5% CPU implant in order to squeeze more out of the ship, while a reactor control could lead to a hulk that can have nontrivial yield and nontrivial tank, just like a combat ship can choose to fit an extra DPS mod in the lows while sacrificing one slot of tank. If a Hulk tries that, you run up against the CPU limit immediately due to the CPU penalty on MLUs.
Note that PG implants or rigs are useless on a Hulk since you're starting with such a low number in the first place. 5% of 35MW is a whopping huge 1.75MW. Enough to fit a DC!
The way the Hulk and the Orca are right now, the pilot is relatively safe if they keep an eye on local. Of course they need to develop strategies to remain safe, and those strategies can not involve stations or gates (since those are two places where a hulk or orca is just a wallowing whale waiting for a whomping).
In short: an industrial pilot in hisec has to behave exactly as if they were in low sec, with the disadvantage of not being allowed to shoot first.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:15:00 -
[898] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:So, could any of you EFT warriors give tank fit for Hulk with align time of less than 14,60 seconds.
I can get a non-boosting Orca off grid in just over 10 seconds GÇö fit a MWD.
The trick is to switch the hulk into the Orca's SMB, stay on grid in your max-tank Basilisks with the salvager fitted so you can laugh at the guys who tried to smart bomb your mining fleet.
If you're trying to mine during Hulkageddon, you'll want to go to extremes: take the booster(s) off-grid, leave the on-grid orca as a mobile jet can and SMB only. Make sure you get off-grid, safe and cloaked before the wannabe-gankers land on grid and can finally get out of warp.
As for all this whining about hulk not having enough tank, or not being agile enough, or simply not being survivable enough for the play style that has grown around it, tough *******. The messaging from CCP Soundwave is that CCP don't give a damn about people who enjoy mining as a form of relaxation. If you enjoy mining as a relaxing thing to do in EVE Online, cancel your subscriptions and let CCP know why. As the Summer of Rage/Incarna Riots showed, CCP will not listen to your complaints (what you say), but they will listen to enough of you unsubscribing (what you do).
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
554
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:30:00 -
[899] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Anyway, the entire point here was that your claim was silly to begin with: the training times you mentioned were not true and the reasons miners earn less is because they have been receiving undue competition from other sources.
1) The various fittings presented mostly come with the default "all skill to V", tell me how quick they come, eh? Not saying there don't exist less demanding fittings but hey, I am not the one EFTing my way out on the forums.
2) I talk apples (how miners will compete in the future), you about oranges (past (bots) and almost gone (drone regions) mineral faucets). I don't care about the past. You say costs don't matter in balance, you also know that past balance does not matter, the game is meant to be always in the best dynamic balance possible.
Tippia wrote:No, I'm asking you: what scenario is that? If you're going to take the Adunh route, I will treat you the same as Adhun and keep repeating the question, either until you answer it or until it becomes abundantly clear that you were just trolling and failed to score a cheap point. As always, I hope it'll be the first one.
Don't compare me to you. I don't post to score "points". I don't care if you think I troll. Keep repeating and quoting, you just keep bumping a thread that you could have let die after 5 pages, achieving the effect of making the "buff hulk" actually an hot topic. As I said before, I am actually making you reply so you bump, because I can.
Tippia wrote: if enough get killed, then maybe they will start thinking about it, but so far, nothing seems to suggest that anything of the sort is happening.
You don't see reasons because you don't want to see them. While I certainly sleep quite well at the night with the tank I got, I brought a simple example of Buff destroyers for PvP => collateral effect vs other ships that were finely balanced against the destroyers former damage. Your choice to see it as "nothing seems to suggest". It's your opinion. Eventually your opinion will prevail or not, in both case I don't care.
Quote:I happily admit my opinions are just that and don't present them as the Bible laws carved in stone. Therefore while I don't need buffs for Hulks (I'd like Macks were less pathetic though), others seems to. The majority usually wins. If you'll see 100 threads like this in the next months (just let enough people jump into mining and get their slap) it's quite possible a buff will happen. GǪalternatively GÇö and far better for everyone GÇö they jump in, get slapped, and jump out, leaving you with a bigger piece of the pie.
Anyway, this is essentially the same as the point made above about player pressure: so far, pressure without any reasoning behind it doesn't seem to have yielded much of a result, and pressure contrary to fact has yielded even less. [/quote]
When a certain equity / commodity makes to the news, it's because so much was going on that it became prominent and then people will read about it on the newspaper and talk about it at the bar. When a certain even happens in game that affects enough people to create some threads, it's because something is brewing up. Whether it's something little (it is for now) or is something big (we'll see in few months) will be left to the future to decide, not to me or you. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
554
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:34:00 -
[900] - Quote
Tippia wrote: As for the BPOs, no. I'm thinking about getting a Thrasher BPO, if people are actually as bad at fitting their exhumers as this thread (and others) suggests, but I don't think it'll be ready in time. All my research slots are taken for more interesting things.
Everybody talking about catalysts and hybrids buff and you go buy a thrasher I am almost tempted to sell you my thrasher BPO, but then I'd feel like a cheater. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:39:00 -
[901] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:The trick is to switch the hulk into the Orca's SMB, stay on grid in your max-tank Basilisks with the salvager fitted so you can laugh at the guys who tried to smart bomb your mining fleet.
And then get popped by Tornado.
Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
554
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:40:00 -
[902] - Quote
Patrick Estemaire wrote:
This. While a noob might mine right in busy systems, to make it easier on a ganker to find them, the wisdom comes quick enough to mine out in the middle of nowhere. I'd certainly think that someone who's flown a mining cruiser, then a Retty, would have figured that lesson out by the time they are buying a Hulk.
Jorma Amatin wrote:Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.
I am curious about your stance on Mackinaws. They make Hulk sound sturdy yet they HAVE to sit in overcrowded, easy to find belts.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
554
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 06:52:00 -
[903] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:[quote=Jorma Morkkis] The trick is to switch the hulk into the Orca's SMB, stay on grid in your max-tank Basilisks with the salvager fitted so you can laugh at the guys who tried to smart bomb your mining fleet.
An appropriate gank squad goes for the Orca kill, the mining ships around are "AoE bonus damage". Don't ever be overconfident about it. You can indeed bring in logistics, and I daily see multiple RR + repair bots being used. But that affects the ISK per account in a big way.
I.e. if you have the basic 4 Hulks + Orca + 2 RR battleships / logistics you are looking at 4 Hulk income / 6 or / 7. With 2 RR BS you are basically getting as low efficiency as somebody using a tard 32k EHP setup, they also halve their yield but at least don't have to pay for 2-3 additional accounts. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 07:46:00 -
[904] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD.
I regularly use a 100MN MWD to get my Orca from Dodixie to Jita/Amarr faster.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 07:49:00 -
[905] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:An appropriate gank squad goes for the Orca kill
There are surprisingly few gankers who bother to survey the ship before ganking it. Of course, none of them post their NPC loss mails.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 07:52:00 -
[906] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD. I regularly use a 100MN MWD to get my Orca from Dodixie to Jita/Amarr faster.
Again, not enough powergrid.
2x T2 links 1x T2 tractor beam 1x T2 100mn MWD 2x T2 PDS 3x T1 ACR
Powergrid: 1802,00/1760,91 |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 07:56:00 -
[907] - Quote
I would like to point out also.
Comparing industrials to real life industrials, as an arguement with in the game. In real life, the criminal if caught pays a price too.
The problem is. Ganking industrials is on the increase. This is because it's been made to easy to do.
Remove the "must lose ship" from concord mechcanic. Add a bounty on the ganker for each gank. Every time the ganker enters hi sec, he becomes a target for everyone. if caught he loses his account, for a period of time for each gank. When the time expires. He gets his sec status set bk to 5.
Give Ganking a real deterrant.
Im just comparing real life as an arguement within a game
o7
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
266
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 08:18:00 -
[908] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I took the liberty to make your post visible. Thanks again for the most pathetic forums EVER created in the whole universe. Gizznitt Malikite wrote:I wrote an article several months ago discussing hulk fittings and the like: Here it is: Fighting HulkageddonThe fits I suggested for the hulk have already been posted in this forum. However, there is an important dichotomy between Mining and Shooting in this game. Mining is very laid back, where you don't need to be vigilant. The shooting side of this game is much more dynamic, where playing involves a constant watch on whats happening so they can respond approrpiately. Frankly, these two play styles don't mix well. As the person who's not vigilant will die horribly to those that are. I honestly think that small changes to the system are in order. Here are some important points: 1.) A Mackinaw CANNOT be tanked enough to survive a suicide Tornado attack.... Concord response times, in 0.7 sec and lower, are greater than 15s( at least, last time I checked in January). Any Arty Tornado deals 12k per shot, and a fully tanked Makinaw has less than 24k EHP. Granted, with skilled fleet boosters.... it MIGHT survive that second shot, but its not a given!!!! 2.) The Hulk can be fit with a good tank. It can hit 30k EHP, and fleet + Heat can put it into the mid 30's... but this is not a significant amount of EHP in todays suicide gank world, as a Talos can often dish out that much damage before CC arrives. Given the increase in dessie dps, and the awesome gank of tier 3 BC's, I think a review of the exhumer class ships is very much appropriate.... The fact that you cannot tank a Mack to survive highsec ganks speaks volumes IMO. I think a well tanked Exhumer with all rigs/mids/lows dedicated to fitting tank, it should be able to withstand ONE suicide BC ship. With about 30 percent more CPU, the mack could fit a 30k EHP tank...... (perhaps 1-5 pg more to smooth its fitting ) With about 5 percent more CPU, about 5 PG, and increase the shield resist bonus from 7.5 to 10 percent per level. The hulk would sport about a 40k EHP tank before gang boosts.... These would not be "CCP SAVE ME" changes... as fitting even 1 Laser upgrde would significantly compromise the tank by 10k+ EHP. Essentially, there needs to be a balance between tank and yield, where tanked fits can actually stand a reasonable chance of survival. Truth be told, most miners I know will still NOT bother to tank their fits.... and that is the CHOICE the make... I just think the choice needs to be a real choice... especially in the case of Mackinaws... Also, groups of attackers can take out exhumers just fine, as it should be.... Also, beware. You will be called hi sec bear for saying this, even with your corp tag
Lol... Everyone in eve is a carebear to some extent... Hell, I've found most of nullsec to be overpopulated with carebears so afraid of their own shadow they can't cope with a single afk cloaker in system, but that's a discussion for another time!!!! I'll let my combat record speak for my PvP prowess...
Tippia wrote:... lots of complaints about people wanting CCP to make hulks tanky AND yieldy...
Last year, about this time, the Brutix was a status-quo ship for highsec ganking.... With the 16-22 second concord response times, it could output roughly 20k damage. At that time, a tank-fit hulk could easily with stand the assault, and even a fully tanked mackinaw had a marginal chance of survival. Since then, they have buffed blasters and introduced very ganky BC's. All together, these changes very much altered the balance between mining vessels and ganking vessels. Essentially, it is no longer possible to tank a Mackinaw enough to survive a full gank brutix, let alone a tier 3 BC. Even a fully tanked hulk needs heat, squad boosts, and/or implants to marginally survive against these ships. Essentially, the changes have taken away the ability to adequately tank exhumers. You may feel that an exhumer shouldn't be able to tank a tier 3 BC, perhaps because of the insurance nerf.... but I personally disagree. I think a marginal boost to the defense capabilities of these ships to give them a fitting option to tank a single BC is very much in line with this game. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 08:26:00 -
[909] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:At the end the Hulk is made for 00 or lowsec with intel and a local as pre warning.
What is needed is a high end highsec mining ship which can handle the today playstlye of suizid ganking which was no topic when the Hulk was released! Sure, it did happened back in 200x. But it wasn't that common as it is today.
The Hulk is outdated.
Hulk is 0.0/low sec
Use a osprey or a rokh or similiar.
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baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 08:39:00 -
[910] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote: Same reason why a 4 billion isk jump freighter cant do what your cane does. The hulk isnt a combat ship, that not its job.
Nobody pretends an hulk to be a 'cane. But there's the "is this ship crap or not" skin feeling and I can safely say that a 'cane or drake are VERY good investments, those ships ROCK (and when I played them, they were just 25M), they handle nicely, they tank nicely, they just look "correct" and up to the task, everywhere from hi sec to 0.0 to WH. Now, I don't even want to think about how "up to the task" would be to have a mackinaw mining in 0.0. once a battleship spawn targets it. Yes it mines. That's it. The rest is completely crap, the ship does not feel "right", in the same way of flying an Amarr frigate without laser bonus just does not feel right even if they are overpowered when you fit turrets.
The Mackinaw getting a bit more CPU can be justified but the hulk does not need a buff as it can do its job fine right now. |
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baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 08:41:00 -
[911] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Last year, about this time, the Brutix was a status-quo ship for highsec ganking.... With the 16-22 second concord response times, it could output roughly 20k damage. At that time, a tank-fit hulk could easily with stand the assault, and even a fully tanked mackinaw had a marginal chance of survival. Since then, they have buffed blasters and introduced very ganky BC's. All together, these changes very much altered the balance between mining vessels and ganking vessels. Essentially, it is no longer possible to tank a Mackinaw enough to survive a full gank brutix, let alone a tier 3 BC. Even a fully tanked hulk needs heat, squad boosts, and/or implants to marginally survive against these ships. Essentially, the changes have taken away the ability to adequately tank exhumers. You may feel that an exhumer shouldn't be able to tank a tier 3 BC, perhaps because of the insurance nerf.... but I personally disagree. I think a marginal boost to the defense capabilities of these ships to give them a fitting option to tank a single BC is very much in line with this game.
The hulk can do just fine solo vs a brutix or T3. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 08:47:00 -
[912] - Quote
To say the mining ships need an escort to survive is not a good argument. Any ship that is badly out of balance will need a fleet to fix it. The question is if we want to have more or less ships depending on the presence of a fleet as well as how strong the dependence needs to be. For example, a command ship still functions as a battleship without a fleet. A logistics ship is of little use without a fleet, but it still has got its survivability. I do not know where super-caps currently stand, but I think they, too, do not necessarily need a fleet to survive.
The mining yield of a mining ship is no direct threat to any combat ship. The ore still needs to be moved around and processed before it turns into a new ship, which means that it is still exposed to combat long after the mining ship has done its job. The ore will also not posses the properties of the mining ships but it requires skill, time and all other game mechanics until it becomes a new ship and can be flown into combat. One could increase the mining yield of all mining ships by a factor of 10 and its effect on combat will still be little. It just does not change anything about the balance of the combat ships. Of course some would make more ISKs after such a change, but only until the markets compensate for it and the prices fall. Anyone would be free to make ISKs in that time through market speculations and as a secondary effect could the popularity of the Hulk drop, which is not a bad thing. However, to argue the mining yield of the mining ships does somehow balance their tank is simply not true. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
557
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:09:00 -
[913] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:To say the mining ships need an escort to survive is not a good argument.
Here's what I love about EvE. I sell mining ships, gank ships yet if the mining ships will need a fleet to protect them, my minerals speculation will bring me billions. Win win win
But yes, it'd be fun to see statistics about how many more mining ships get popped per day compared to pre-destroyers buff + T3 BCs introduction. I guess there are some, else I would not be always empty of 'nados BPCs to sell. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:16:00 -
[914] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:To say the mining ships need an escort to survive is not a good argument. Any ship that is badly out of balance will need a fleet to fix it. The question is if we want to have more or less ships depending on the presence of a fleet as well as how strong the dependence needs to be. For example, a command ship still functions as a battleship without a fleet. A logistics ship is of little use without a fleet, but it still has got its survivability. I do not know where super-caps currently stand, but I think they, too, do not necessarily need a fleet to survive.
It does not "need" an escort. But an escort is a way to see a lightly tanked, industrial ship survive. All the other ships you mentioned are purpose built for use in a combat theater. A mining ship is not.
Whitehound wrote:However, to argue the mining yield of the mining ships does somehow balance their tank is simply not true.
Then why can't you fit Stripminers to a Rohk and mine as effectively with that? |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:24:00 -
[915] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Then why can't you fit Stripminers to a Rohk and mine as effectively with that? Do not ask me, ask CCP. I can only guess why. If you could fit 8 strip miners onto a Rohk then it would be the "shot to the head" for all mining ships. You would then only need to carry their corpses out. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:31:00 -
[916] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
But yes, it'd be fun to see statistics about how many more mining ships get popped per day compared to pre-destroyers buff + T3 BCs introduction. I guess there are some, else I would not be always empty of 'nados BPCs to sell.
I'd say around the same when you take population growth into account. Tornadoes fill the roll of tempests and cost more given that you no longer get insurance. Destroyers now fill the roll the brutix used to fill because gankers have figured out that if you dont tank ships they can be killed for a profit by a destroyer.
Of course, on the 28th this will likely go up and spawn endless Ganking is too easy threads. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:33:00 -
[917] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Btw, Orca doesn't have enough grid for 100mn MWD. I regularly use a 100MN MWD to get my Orca from Dodixie to Jita/Amarr faster. Again, not enough powergrid. 2x T2 links 1x T2 tractor beam 1x T2 100mn MWD 2x T2 PDS 3x T1 ACR Powergrid: 1802,00/1760,91
No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:36:00 -
[918] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG.
You talked about boosting Orca earlier then you switched to travel fit Orca. You do realize that those are two different things? |
Ai Shun
637
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:44:00 -
[919] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG. You talked about boosting Orca earlier then you switched to travel fit Orca. You do realize that those are two different things?
Read the post on the previous page again.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 09:58:00 -
[920] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Read the post on the previous page again.
Why would anyone have non-tanked travel fit Orca on grid when mining? T3 with mining links off-grid? Lol. That has to be worst use for Blingu. |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 10:33:00 -
[921] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:No links, just MWD, Reactor Control and moderate shield tank. There's enough PG. You talked about boosting Orca earlier then you switched to travel fit Orca. You do realize that those are two different things?
Yes, two different things. If you have an off-grid T3 boosting your mining fleet, the Orca is only needed for its hauling capacity and SMB. When you see baddies on D-scan, get the hulks and Orca out of the belt. Yes, we're looking at reducing the meagre income of mining even further, but that's life when you're at the bottom of the food chain. Lots of attention, lots of paranoia, lots of compromise in ship fittings to keep your phenomenal investment in production capital relatively safe, and a bunch of ADHD 13yo PvPers complaining that mining is too boring and needs to be "fixed".
CCP could double the tank on the Hulk. That would just mean that the gankers bring twice as many ships. The major issue with the Hulk is simply that it is prey that must go to watering holes (asteroid belts). The hunters who want to catch the prey know this, and they know that a Hulk in a belt mining ore is going to be terribly limited in its options of fittings, motion, and ability to escape.
Mining could be easily adjusted to not require the prey to be at clearly marked watering holes with signs posted saying, "PLEASE SHOOT ME" but so far CCP has not expressed any interest in doing this (apart from one dev comment some years ago about moving all mining to grav sites). Of course, when it comes to predator-prey relationships, all that will happen is that the gankers simply add exploration alts to their fleets (i.e.: the guy flying the orca full of catalysts and blasters).
Could the Hulk benefit from adjusted fittings such as a slightly more PG? Sure! Will that somehow make you immune to ganking? No. All that such adjustments will achieve is to raise the stakes a little.
Miners just have to remember that they are prey, the herbivores of the EVE Online eco system. Like gazelle in the savanna, miners must remain eternally vigilant and paranoid.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1210
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 10:34:00 -
[922] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Read the post on the previous page again. Why would anyone have non-tanked travel fit Orca on grid when mining? T3 with mining links off-grid? Lol. That has to be worst use for Blingu.
Because you want to get the Orca off the grid when you see gankers on D-scan, and an Orca with an MWD can't fit gang links?
I thought it was pretty obvious, personally.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 10:39:00 -
[923] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Because you want to get the Orca off the grid when you see gankers on D-scan, and an Orca with an MWD can't fit gang links?
I thought it was pretty obvious, personally.
Does Blingu give bigger mining bonuses compared to T2 linked Orca? That ship would be better for running level 4s at the same time. Higher isk/hr. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
558
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 10:40:00 -
[924] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
But yes, it'd be fun to see statistics about how many more mining ships get popped per day compared to pre-destroyers buff + T3 BCs introduction. I guess there are some, else I would not be always empty of 'nados BPCs to sell.
I'd say around the same when you take population growth into account. Tornadoes fill the roll of tempests and cost more given that you no longer get insurance.
Well I don't see such a big population increase to justify the rise of BPC requests. Yes I also have Tempest BPO, it was not so hot. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 10:50:00 -
[925] - Quote
When I read the first page of this thread I was like: " yeah, the Hulk could use some extra PG and CPU to get to 50k ehp." But after reading more, I realized that some miners really don't get it.
Use a Orca boosted BS or a tanked Hulk, if you are lazy. Fly a max Yield Hulk,if you know what you're doing. A T2 fit, with one single Shield link gives you 40k ehp
My former Mission-Tengu could have been be alpha killed by a Tornado, but wasn't...
Permaband: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q
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Tobiaz
Spacerats
165
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 12:34:00 -
[926] - Quote
Perhaps with the Tiercide CCP will also look at the mining ships? http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Alara IonStorm
1979
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 12:35:00 -
[927] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Perhaps with the Tiercide CCP will also look at the mining ships? That is what I am hoping for TBH.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
995
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 12:48:00 -
[928] - Quote
July Oumis wrote:When I read the first page of this thread I was like: " yeah, the Hulk could use some extra PG and CPU to get to 50k ehp." But after reading more, I realized that some miners really don't get it. Use a Orca boosted BS or a tanked Hulk, if you are lazy. Fly a max Yield Hulk,if you know what you're doing. A T2 fit, with one single Shield link gives you 40k ehp My former Mission-Tengu could have been be alpha killed by a Tornado, but wasn't... Permaband: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q
A simple T2 fit it's at worst 2 cycles for a gank 720 T2 hotwizer Hurricane. 1 Volley for a simple Tornado. 2 Volley for a single T1 fitted Neutron Talos.
If you wanted to demonstrate there are lazy unskilled gankers, you just won.
If you wanted somehow to show Mining barges are ok, you just failed.
And yes Hulk should be able to fit at least 80k EHP without pimp or sacrifice cargo/mining upgrades, align faster than a shield Brutix but it doesn't. I just had a few lols this week watching a ex ganker (lol irl I assure you) trying to warp out of the belt when I just got there with my completely unfitted Ferox, well had a cargo scanner for lols and make that one wet his pants. Before he was able to warp out in his ubber tanked Hulk, I could have killed him at least 10 or 15 times if no concord. (or a single one with a T1 neutrons Talos)
It's funny how people that never mine or haven't mined for ages bring lol Hulk fits when they don't have a clue about it and only show how bad they are at ganking.
Mining barges need a serious EHP buff, if you want to gank those for profit then you must choose your target wisely, if you want to gank those for lols then you should use more isk in set ups than the hulk price, not the stupid bad design that is right now. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6056
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:00:00 -
[929] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:And yes Hulk should be able to fit at least 80k EHP without pimp or sacrifice cargo/mining upgrades, align faster than a shield Brutix but it doesn't. No, it really shouldn't. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:02:00 -
[930] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:And yes Hulk should be able to fit at least 80k EHP without pimp or sacrifice cargo/mining upgrades, align faster than a shield Brutix but it doesn't. No, it really shouldn't. Yes, it should. It does not change much, but only stops a few gankers. |
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Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:07:00 -
[931] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
As for all this whining about hulk not having enough tank, or not being agile enough, or simply not being survivable enough for the play style that has grown around it, tough *******. The messaging from CCP Soundwave is that CCP don't give a damn about people who enjoy mining as a form of relaxation. If you enjoy mining as a relaxing thing to do in EVE Online, cancel your subscriptions and let CCP know why. As the Summer of Rage/Incarna Riots showed, CCP will not listen to your complaints (what you say), but they will listen to enough of you unsubscribing (what you do).
Word.
And if anything, Low-sec has it worse than High Sec. They live in the shadow of Null Sec. And anything that could be given to them is instead handed to Null-Sec/Wormhole Space instead.
They have all the disadvantages(except not being smashed by Titans for LOLs) and no advantages.
Cause giving them anything would stack all the benefits to Null Sec a little less high. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6056
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:14:00 -
[932] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:1) The various fittings presented mostly come with the default "all skill to V", tell me how quick they come, eh? As mentioned, the required tanking skills to get those EHP amount to less than 10 ranks. That's a matter of a couple of weeks to max out.
Quote:2) I talk apples (how miners will compete in the future), you about oranges (past (bots) and almost gone (drone regions) mineral faucets). I don't care about the past. GǪand I'm answering your question, which is about the past.
Quote:Don't compare me to you. Look, it's very simple: don't drag out your fucktarded straw man fallacies or I will call you on them and prove to the world that you are a ******** like I just have. If you're going to assign any kind of statement or world view to me, be prepared to back it up or shut the fuck up. You assigned an random, completely nondescript, pulled-from-your-ass GÇ£scenarioGÇ¥ to me, and unless you demonstrate that it has anything to do with me and what I've written, it is actually not my scenario GÇö it's yours, and if you think it's a stupid scenario, then maybe you should try to squeeze a few more brain cells in there and stop coming up with such stupid scenarios, ok? I don't compare you to me, because I don't want to insult myself by donning the cloak of abject retardation.
So: what scenario are you talking about? Can you answer this very very very simple question? Or would you rather admit that you just made it up to score a cheap troll point? Those are your only two options.
Quote:You don't see reasons because you don't want to see them. While I certainly sleep quite well at the night with the tank I got, I brought a simple example of Buff destroyers for PvP => collateral effect vs other ships that were finely balanced against the destroyers former damage. GǪand the thing is that I don't buy it as collateral damage GÇö I see it as intentional damage, and that the balance hasn't really shifted all that much. You couldn't kill a properly tanked Hulk without a group of destroyers before the change; you can't kill a properly tanked Hulk without a group of destroyers after the change.
Quote:When a certain even happens in game that affects enough people to create some threads, it's because something is brewing up. Then we can conclude that nothing is GÇ£brewing upGÇ¥ because these threads have existed for all eternity, and the changes haven't actually changed anything on that front.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6056
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:18:00 -
[933] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Yes, it should. No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size, even the ships that are specialised in outflying and outtanking other ships in combat, and it can do this without any kind of sacrifice.
Anyone who makes that kind of boneheaded demand has exactly zero concept of balance. Try getting one before making foolish demands because if you don't, then you only ever manage to prove that your complaint is ridiculous and nothing will happen. So no, it should be able to do exactly none of what was listed, and that's before we even go into the fact that there is exactly zero reason why it should.
Quote:It does not change much, but only stops a few gankers. It already can. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
401
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:22:00 -
[934] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Jorma Amatin wrote:Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.
By the way the hulk's tank is compromised because the hardware is dedicated for the strip miners and ore processing. If you want a damn tank then go fit mining laser IIs on a Rokh and use that instead. Have your second like.
wth I said that like 4 times now lol
Montevius Williams wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with? Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them.
that contrasts directly with what tippia and other have said that its NOT meant to be flown in combat areas but Id have to log in to look https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:26:00 -
[935] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ... Wrong. A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6057
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:31:00 -
[936] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ... Wrong. Maybe you should read the quote that started it all before you knee-jerk-post your answer.
You just said that Tanya didn't write what Tanya wrote, because that's exactly what such a ship would do GÇö in fact, that's exactly what (s)he asked for: GÇ£Hulk should be able to fit at least 80k EHP without pimp or sacrifice cargo/mining upgrades, align faster than a shield BrutixGÇ¥. No, it is not GÇ£wrongGÇ¥ that a ship that, with 80k EHP and faster align than a shield Brutix will outtank and outfly pretty much anything else of a similar size. Try again. Try reading this time. Also, try thinking before you post.
Quote:A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat. Straw man. That was never the issue. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
401
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:31:00 -
[937] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
In short: an industrial pilot in hisec has to behave exactly as if they were in low sec, with the disadvantage of not being allowed to shoot first.
how much dps that Hulk gonna do?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:34:00 -
[938] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Maybe you should ... No. I just put you back on ignore for another day. I will not take advise from you after you posted another false assumption of what should and should not be. I am not going to tell you either what you should or should not do. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:37:00 -
[939] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ... Wrong. A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat. Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
401
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:37:00 -
[940] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Patrick Estemaire wrote:
This. While a noob might mine right in busy systems, to make it easier on a ganker to find them, the wisdom comes quick enough to mine out in the middle of nowhere. I'd certainly think that someone who's flown a mining cruiser, then a Retty, would have figured that lesson out by the time they are buying a Hulk.
Jorma Amatin wrote:Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.
I am curious about your stance on Mackinaws. They make Hulk sound sturdy yet they HAVE to sit in overcrowded, easy to find belts.
dont mine ice
hey thats a hard one https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6057
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:42:00 -
[941] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I will not take advise from you You should. It would improve your thinking massively.
Quote:I will not take advise from you after you posted another false assumption of what should and should not be. SoGǪ does that mean you're not taking advice from yourself either, since you did exactly the same thing? I think we've found the source of your cognitive issues. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
401
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:49:00 -
[942] - Quote
wth is tieracide and where can I read what CCP is saying about it? I tried Gioogling it but all Im coming up with are posts on EVE-O https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
136
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:52:00 -
[943] - Quote
I think the hulk needs boosting a bit, but also, that mining actually needs a new sort of ship for miners, given that what happens every year, you'd think ORE would have figured out a new ship for miners by now right. Caldari focused fleet PvP
Join us for 100% Caldari fleets in Faction Warfare and small fleet PvP
www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/recruitment |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
995
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:56:00 -
[944] - Quote
@Tipia
And how bad for the game is that a ship that can't dps anything else than a shuttle with it's drones gets a decent tank other than make you need more ships to kill it and by so, destroying more ships is good for the game. It will only make me pick wisely my targets or go kill defenceless mining barges in low null sec where I could do this without Concord ganking me.
Bot argument is dead, CCP is taking care of it and for what we can see is doing rather good.
Gank argument is pointless, you don't gank an Orca with a single Battleship in high sec, why should you be able to gank an hulk with a regular fit with a single Brutix or even a single Tornado? -what argument can be valid enough to make it proportional.
-By the way, why the hell pvp is that easy and no risk in high sec? -How good it is for the game, for low sec and null sec development, that high sec is that easy for pvp and avoid the real pvp aspect of the game that is low sec, null sec? -How good is for mining and industry in general that mining barges and exhumers are that awful ships to fly for such tedious activity badly designed on top.
I don't see any good reason to keep this, or think for whatever reason it's good for the game because it isn't at the end.
It's just pick the "pvp" argument turn it "we free high sec from bots" when it's clearly not the case, it's pure grieffing because high sec rules are so badly designed I can turn them on my favor whenever I want and be right such as you can turn them in whatever sense you want and be right, so at the end we're doing an exercise of writing -witch you obviously win hehe-
I'm not tounting your intelligence by any means nor trying to make you agree with me in all terms, but you have to agree at some point that all those high sec arguments are fake invalid when it comes to pvp because high sec is the best place/way to avoid it. The easy gank target that are mining barges just feed this argument of high sec being far too safe for pvp without real drawback that should be proportional risk vs reward.
Once again it's only my opinion. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:00:00 -
[945] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending. And neither against it.
What is it you are defending by the way? To whom or what are mining ships a threat? |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
995
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:12:00 -
[946] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ... Wrong. A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat. Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending.
Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter.
Thing is that whatever EHP you give it it's always far too easy to gank an hulk because I only risk a 80M (1 argument valid or not it is one) Tornado that has as much ehp (another argument valid or not) as the hulk full fit but the Tornado is full gank mods.
Thing is at the end, that what this brings up is not really the EHP or price or align argument the real problem because those are the same mining barges used in null sec. The real problem is how easy is to avoid pvp or consequences and how biased risk/vs reward pvp is in high sec.
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Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:23:00 -
[947] - Quote
Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine. In high sec use a covetor or a rokh. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6063
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:23:00 -
[948] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter. GǪand as always, the question is: why?
Quote:The real problem is how easy is to avoid pvp or consequences and how biased risk/vs reward pvp is in high sec. Inferno is coming. It should make highsec a bit more dangerous. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:25:00 -
[949] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, It is a number as good as any. The decision on what to change exactly, if it needs a change, falls to CCP. |
Whitehound
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:31:00 -
[950] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine. In high sec use a covetor or a rokh. It is not a good argument. The Hulk pilot will want to get to the POS with or without his Hulk and to switch into a combat ship.
Why should a Hulk then not be able to tank enough until someone comes to the belt for support?
Would a stronger tank on mining ships lead to bigger fleet fights in 0.0 when one had to bring more DPS to kill them? |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 14:59:00 -
[951] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:No, because then you have an industrial resource ship that outtanks and outflies pretty much everything else of a similar size ... Wrong. A tank alone does not decide over victory or defeat. Then there's zero argument for giving a hulk 80k ehp like you're defending. Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter. Few if any hulk gank victims bother fitting a tank instead of maximum cargo + yield. If they're easy to kill, it's because the victim fit them that way, not because of any flaw in the balance of the ship.
And clearly despite all the complaints, the Hulk is fine according to players' tastes seeing as it's the most popular PvE ship in the game. Despite not even fitting tanking modules or rigs. So no fix is needed. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:01:00 -
[952] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine. In high sec use a covetor or a rokh. It is not a good argument. The Hulk pilot will want to get to the POS with or without his Hulk and to switch into a combat ship. Why should a Hulk then not be able to tank enough until someone comes to the belt for support? Would a stronger tank on mining ships lead to bigger fleet fights in 0.0 when one had to bring more DPS to kill them?
Fleet fights are pretty big in 0.0.....
|
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
996
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:03:00 -
[953] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Hulks are made for 0.0. If the player is paying attention and gets to a pos when a neutral enters local then he will be fine. In high sec use a covetor or a rokh.
You are only proving that high sec pvp is far too easy and without real negative consequence.
And using a Retriever or Covetor just makes it even more laughable since you don't need any more a Brutix for the job but a single neutrons catalyst or arty thasher, hell a pair of arty rifters can do it
What is good for the game is that more ships die trying or die doing it because you can't do it with a single one, rather than more players leaving mining to bots and those using them. I hope Sreggs will really put a marker on those and related accounts so I/you can have some laughs ^^ and then see who will ask for more ehp on hulks or say that hulks are far too easily ganked, this day I will probably get -10 with all my accounts faster than I can spell it knowing who's asking my 48 on it's ass. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
996
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:12:00 -
[954] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Hey guys stop that 80K ehp argument, I've just thrown a number like that so that would mark something to you guys understand that an Exhumer shouldn't be that easy to kill and need some more effort like you need to gank an orca or a freighter. GǪand as always, the question is: why?
Exactly, I could have said 40K EHP without sacrifice cargo or mining mods. My bad
Quote:The real problem is how easy is to avoid pvp or consequences and how biased risk/vs reward pvp is in high sec. Inferno is coming. It should make highsec a bit more dangerous.[/quote]
Well, if Concord is not a joke any more (I don't believe a word on this), if pvp has real consequences in high sec (I don't believe it neither) and if SS farming becomes actually really tedious leading to more low/null sec pvp (now this one I really don't believe CCP will ever do it), then inferno will probably surprise me a little bit more than hybrids (unfinished) rebalance.
|
Whitehound
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:20:00 -
[955] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Fleet fights are pretty big in 0.0..... That is what I am thinking, too.
If one had to bring actually some DPS to bother a mining fleet then it could lead to pretty nasty fights and more than just POS bashing.
By the way, a Hulk should not be able to tank more than a T2 transporter or it becomes a competitor to their role. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:23:00 -
[956] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Well I don't see such a big population increase to justify the rise of BPC requests. Yes I also have Tempest BPO, it was not so hot.
Nados get used for way more than ganking |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:26:00 -
[957] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:By the way, a Hulk should not be able to tank more than a T2 transporter or it becomes a competitor to their role.
That's not going to happen.
- Hulk has worse align time than triple plated Abaddon - No covert ops cloak |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:30:00 -
[958] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
That's not going to happen.
- Hulk has worse align time than triple plated Abaddon - No covert ops cloak
Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:31:00 -
[959] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:
A simple T2 fit it's at worst 2 cycles for a gank 720 T2 hotwizer Hurricane. 1 Volley for a simple Tornado. 2 Volley for a single T1 fitted Neutron Talos.
Can I see this tornado fit that can alpha a 33k tank with 80% resists? |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:32:00 -
[960] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:Fleet fights are pretty big in 0.0..... That is what I am thinking, too. If one had to bring actually some DPS to bother a mining fleet then it could lead to pretty nasty fights and more than just POS bashing. By the way, a Hulk should not be able to tank more than a T2 transporter or it becomes a competitor to their role.
^^ Baltec People are saying that a tornado gets two shots in high sec. thats two alphas.....heh
The ehp on a hulk is fine. Small ships should be able to take it out in gangs. Providing it is properly fit....with tank. Hulks are not worth what they are being sold for....they are just sold that high because people can get away with it. I used a 14million isk frig to take out a 100million isk t2 fit raven before.....does that mean that the raven needs a buff? No it means people need to play smarter and tank their **** or use something that does tank. It really is simple as that. |
|
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:38:00 -
[961] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:
^^ Baltec People are saying that a tornado gets two shots in high sec. thats two alphas.....heh
Not that guy
In any event arty nado can only do two vollies in 0.5 and 0.6 and even that isnt enough to kill a supertank hulk |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:42:00 -
[962] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport.
As far as I know DSTs have faster align time than triple plated Abaddon. I also know that it is possible to have quite tough tank on those things too. Way over 20k what a typical tanked Hulk has.
- Abaddon: over 14 seconds - Hulk: over 16 seconds - Abaddon has 200k+ EHP - Hulk has only 20k+ EHP |
Mark Androcius
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:44:00 -
[963] - Quote
Maybe i'm ********, but you could just align your ship to station, then ctrl-space and when the baddy comes, almost instant warp. Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Myz Toyou
Bite Me inc Exhale.
49
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:45:00 -
[964] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ildryn wrote:
^^ Baltec People are saying that a tornado gets two shots in high sec. thats two alphas.....heh
Not that guy In any event arty nado can only do two vollies in 0.5 and 0.6 and even that isnt enough to kill a supertank hulk
but...but...but my Hulk should be immune to all hostilities
|
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
996
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:47:00 -
[965] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:
A simple T2 fit it's at worst 2 cycles for a gank 720 T2 hotwizer Hurricane. 1 Volley for a simple Tornado. 2 Volley for a single T1 fitted Neutron Talos.
Can I see this tornado fit that can alpha a 33k tank with 80% resists?
Of course not a 33K EHP dummy, you need 2 volley witch is so difficult to do in high sec right?
Now tell us how much mining you do with your 33K EHP Hulk every day in High sec?
Then please look around in this very same forum, wait you posted in already, you know the guy in high sec ganking HULKS WITH A NEUTRON CATALYST SOLO ?
@ monkey above : I almost don't mine anymore because makes a lot of time I've understood that buying pax stuff, buying meta 0->4 and reprocess with my perfect skills or buying shuttles/some ships gives me a higher yeld than you'll ever get from your Hulk.
Nice try, come back latter, k? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:49:00 -
[966] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Maybe i'm ********, but you could just align your ship to station, then ctrl-space and when the baddy comes, almost instant warp.
You do realize that your ship has to reach 75% of its max speed before it can enter warp? For mining barges, exhumers, Orcas and freighters that will take a lot of time. |
Mark Androcius
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:50:00 -
[967] - Quote
It saves a lot of time though Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:51:00 -
[968] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Thats a blocade runner not a deep space transport. As far as I know DSTs have faster align time than triple plated Abaddon. I also know that it is possible to have quite tough tank on those things too. Way over 20k what a typical tanked Hulk has. - Abaddon: over 14 seconds - Hulk: over 16 seconds - Abaddon has 200k+ EHP - Hulk has only 20k+ EHP
So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship?
Incidently, the 800mm plated impel has a 20.4 second align time and thats a ship that is ment to be flying around hostile gates. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:51:00 -
[969] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Then please look around in this very same forum, wait you posted in already, you know the guy in high sec ganking HULKS WITH A NEUTRON CATALYST SOLO ?
Not a single one one of the catalyst's victims bothered fitting a full tank. Pilot ineptitude does not infer game imbalance. Or it is not ineptitude and instead a calculated risk/reward decision on yield against chance of being suicide ganked, in which case the current level of suicide ganking is not a problem |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:53:00 -
[970] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Then please look around in this very same forum, wait you posted in already, you know the guy in high sec ganking HULKS WITH A NEUTRON CATALYST SOLO ? @ monkey above : I almost don't mine anymore because makes a lot of time I've understood that buying pax stuff, buying meta 0->4 and reprocess with my perfect skills or buying shuttles/some ships gives me a higher yeld than you'll ever get from your Hulk. Nice try, come back latter, k?
Show me a neutron catalist that can kill a 29k buffer hulk |
|
Jorma Amatin
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:56:00 -
[971] - Quote
Everyone has the option to make their hulk more or less gankable: the issue is how willing they are to compromise their mining yield and income. However we should expect tornados to be fotm for Hulkageddon this May, because even though catalysts can be used, orcas are also on the table. |
Prince Kobol
539
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:57:00 -
[972] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:
A simple T2 fit it's at worst 2 cycles for a gank 720 T2 hotwizer Hurricane. 1 Volley for a simple Tornado. 2 Volley for a single T1 fitted Neutron Talos.
Can I see this tornado fit that can alpha a 33k tank with 80% resists?
Was thinking the same thing, I tested my hulk fit on SISI against with another character who has over 14m SP in gunnery with a variety of ships and it survived 3 volleys from a Nando with 1400mm arties sitting stationary at perfect range.
Before somebody say it, yes, I did test my fit on SISI because I'm not a lazy ass miner who expects to be able to sit afk with zero tank mining |
Whitehound
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:57:00 -
[973] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Maybe i'm ********, but you could just align your ship to station, then ctrl-space and when the baddy comes, almost instant warp. The problem is that it is not always going to help, nor is it a good argument to suggest to run away. You only need to take a destroyer and fly innocently around between the asteriods. Some miners not only dock, but they leave the system. The "fun balance" is far too much on the side of the gankers. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
996
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:57:00 -
[974] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Then please look around in this very same forum, wait you posted in already, you know the guy in high sec ganking HULKS WITH A NEUTRON CATALYST SOLO ? @ monkey above : I almost don't mine anymore because makes a lot of time I've understood that buying pax stuff, buying meta 0->4 and reprocess with my perfect skills or buying shuttles/some ships gives me a higher yeld than you'll ever get from your Hulk. Nice try, come back latter, k? Show me a neutron catalist that can kill a 29k buffer hulk
Search by yourself the post (last week) of a crying ganker having a huge number or mining barges/exumers killed with a single Catalyst, was pretty funny. You posted in, you should remember the congrats you give right?
bah, your 33K ehp story's geting old, go back to vfk probe those neutrals instead of writing silly stuff (tount heh)
|
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 15:59:00 -
[975] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪso how many 1600mm plates do you usually fit your Iterons with?
Whats an Iteron cost exactly again? I seem to have forgotten.. TIIP: The Incredible Invisible Poster |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:00:00 -
[976] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship?
Someone just thought it would "replace T2 transport ships". I just wanted to show that with current stats it's not going to happen.
Front line warship? Only place I can see Abaddons is Amarr main station undock. No-one is stupid enough to use armor ships in combat. It's only Drakes, Tengus, Hurricanes and weird shield tanked Gallente ships. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:03:00 -
[977] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Search by yourself the post (last week) of a crying ganker having a huge number or mining barges/exumers killed with a single Catalyst, was pretty funny. You posted in, you should remember the congrats you give right? bah, your 33K ehp story's geting old, go back to vfk probe those neutrals instead of writing silly stuff (tount heh)
The guy wiped out hulks that had no tank. Most of the kills were macks which also had either no tank or a very poor active tank. A 29k buffer hulk is immune to a destroyer. |
Mark Androcius
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:03:00 -
[978] - Quote
Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds. Yes i am dutch, no i don't do drugs. |
Jorma Amatin
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:04:00 -
[979] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship? Someone just thought it would "replace T2 transport ships". I just wanted to show that with current stats it's not going to happen. Front line warship? Only place I can see Abaddons is Amarr main station undock. No-one is stupid enough to use armor ships in combat. It's only Drakes, Tengus, Hurricanes and weird shield tanked Gallente ships.
Maybe you don't know about Thundercat fleets, RnK fleets with archon triage suppot, or any armor-bonused WH systems... But apparently you don't know much. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:04:00 -
[980] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship? Someone just thought it would "replace T2 transport ships". I just wanted to show that with current stats it's not going to happen. Front line warship? Only place I can see Abaddons is Amarr main station undock. No-one is stupid enough to use armor ships in combat. It's only Drakes, Tengus, Hurricanes and weird shield tanked Gallente ships.
Clearly you have not been to 0.0 for some time. |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:05:00 -
[981] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds. So in other words having tank is insanely important. |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:06:00 -
[982] - Quote
Mark Androcius wrote:Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds.
Concord will drop in at 10 seconds in 0.7 space and around 20 seconds in 0.6-0.5. That gives an arty nado only two vollies to kill its target. |
Whitehound
46
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:07:00 -
[983] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:The ehp on a hulk is fine. Small ships should be able to take it out in gangs. Providing it is properly fit....with tank. Hulks are not worth what they are being sold for....they are just sold that high because people can get away with it. I used a 14million isk frig to take out a 100million isk t2 fit raven before.....does that mean that the raven needs a buff? No it means people need to play smarter and tank their **** or use something that does tank. It really is simple as that. No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. And the eHP fits given here are only useful against a particular gank, but in general is the tank just weak.
One can take out a cap with a frigate, if you let it. It is not a smart argument. Maybe when you want people to be smarter, then start with yourself. |
Testerxnot Sheepherder
DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew
49
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:09:00 -
[984] - Quote
SO THE VELATOR WTF CPP?! |
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:10:00 -
[985] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. And the eHP fits given here are only useful against a particular gank, but in general is the tank just weak.
One can take out a cap with a frigate, if you let it. It is not a smart argument. Maybe when you want people to be smarter, then start with yourself.
You need at least 4 nados to kill a supertank hulk in 0.7 space. How exactly is this not enough ehp? |
Whitehound
47
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:23:00 -
[986] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You need at least 4 nados to kill a supertank hulk in 0.7 space. How exactly is this not enough ehp? As I said before is the fit bad. Since when do we need more than the mid- or the low-slots to tank a ship?
You are holding on to the supertank Hulk like a drowning man holds on to a straw. Does this not make you nervous? |
Avila Cracko
317
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:29:00 -
[987] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds. Concord will drop in at 10 seconds in 0.7 space and around 20 seconds in 0.6-0.5. That gives an arty nado only two vollies to kill its target.
You forgot to add 6,7 seconds when Concord is appeared before in this same solar system (baited to the other belt). and cca 2,3 more that concord BS need to target you and kill when its already came to belt. And add few more seconds per any other attacker if there is more then one until that one is targeted and killed. truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
998
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:32:00 -
[988] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds. Concord will drop in at 10 seconds in 0.7 space and around 20 seconds in 0.6-0.5. That gives an arty nado only two vollies to kill its target.
How much you get from your Nado with your skills: (osef perfect ones) with a GANK fit and T2 1400's+short range ammo? (volley)
0.5 last time I've checked concord spawn was about 16sec and about 9sec rof with 1400's with my pesky skills witch makes me put 3 volley on that hulk that would need about 60k EHP to survive my single tornado in a 0.5 system
But of course all this is purely theoretical, right? -and of course I have no idea what I'm talking about, right?
Cheese everywhere
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:47:00 -
[989] - Quote
Jorma Amatin wrote:Maybe you don't know about Thundercat fleets
Those Tengu fleets I was refering... |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:48:00 -
[990] - Quote
Mining subsystem is fail
Mining T3 ship would be win
Oh, what is this? Somebody did one back during ccp's design contest with subsystems planned, balanced and not OP?
Wait... that was me
http://vapor65.deviantart.com/art/Prospect-T3-ver-2-190233061 |
|
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
160
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:54:00 -
[991] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mark Androcius wrote:Another thing, if a hulk is warp scrambled, it doesn't matter how much tank it has, unless it has more then enough to last 30 seconds. So in other words having tank is insanely important.
LOL
30 seconds is a very, very, long time. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1144
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:56:00 -
[992] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
baltec1
1089
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:57:00 -
[993] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:9sec rof with 1400's
yea, thats not possible, not by a long shot. |
Whitehound
48
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 16:59:00 -
[994] - Quote
Another number example, this time with the two shield-tanking T2 transporters Mastodon and Bustard:
Both transporters have more low- (5) than mid-slots (3), yet, when you fit them only for shield tanking and with 2x LSE II and 1x AIF II do both get 50k eHP. Their signatures are however larger - 200 and 215 - whereas the Hulk's signature is only 150. Scaling down the eHP proportionally to the signatures should a Hulk still have 35k-40k eHP and only by using its mid-slots. However, it is currently only half as much. Mainly because of the huge difference in PG (Hulk: 35 PG, T2 Transporter: 245-268 PG).
The ships have similar align times (16.7 vs 17.4). This does not account for the different prices / bills of materials of these ships or their different speeds or roles. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 17:01:00 -
[995] - Quote
battlehulk incoming! |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 17:07:00 -
[996] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:battlehulk incoming!
Hulk killing Tornados. That would be fun thing to see. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6064
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 17:13:00 -
[997] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:This does not account for the different prices / bills of materials of these ships or their different speeds or roles. GǪand that is your problem right there. You're comparing the Hulk to a ship class whose entire purpose is to take one hell of a beating. It's really surprising that they can tank a bit thenGǪ
Quote:No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. Good news: you don't have to either. So that's that GÇ£problemGÇ¥ solved, then. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
52
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 17:52:00 -
[998] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:This does not account for the different prices / bills of materials of these ships or their different speeds or roles. GǪand that is your problem right there. You're comparing the Hulk to a ship class whose entire purpose is to take one hell of a beating. It's really surprising that they can tank a bit thenGǪ You might as well compare the Hulk to a carrier at that point. Quote:No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. Good news: you don't have to either. So that's that GǣproblemGǥ solved, then. The Hulk is a transport ship just like the T2 transporters. PvP takes place everywhere and cannot be restricted to a certain area. The T2 transporters' designation is supported by more than just a tank and a cargo bay. They get active tanking bonuses as well as +2 warp scramble strength. The Hulk can fit strip miners and gets bonuses to mining yield for its role.
It is simply a lack of PG on the side of the mining ships. Newer industrials like the Noctis (250PG) or the Primea (175PG) do come with a proper amount now. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6064
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 18:07:00 -
[999] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:The Hulk is a transport ship just like the T2 transporters. No. It's an exhumer GÇö a T2 mining barge. It's role is to suck up rocks, not to transport stuff straight through camps by sheer force of its tank.
Quote:The T2 transporters' designation is supported by more than just a tank and a cargo bay. They get active tanking bonuses as well as +2 warp scramble strength.
The Hulk can fit strip miners and gets bonuses to mining yield for its role. GǪso you can't really compare the two because they are nothing alike. One is purposefully designed to take one hell of a beating; the other isn't. So yes, you illustrate quite nicely why your comparison doesn't work. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
289
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 18:10:00 -
[1000] - Quote
so tippia if you just said you cant compare the two why did you compare the two in your initial statement? oxymoronic much!?!? PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
|
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 18:17:00 -
[1001] - Quote
Confirming the growth of the thread is accelerated when you feed the trolls. It would appear as the troll is fed a post the thread gains yet another post from the troll itself, the trolls post however goads other trolls to retort and throw out their own post that in turns goads the initial troll, gaining more and more trolls as the size of the thread peaks the interest of onlookers to join, so you can say. So the laws of trolling are; For every reply to the initial post of a troll, there is a response in reaction to said replies from the troll itself, Trolls attract trolls, ????, What's this thread about again? -á |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 18:30:00 -
[1002] - Quote
Nylith Empyreal wrote:Confirming the growth of the thread is accelerated when you feed the trolls. It would appear as the troll is fed a post the thread gains yet another post from the troll itself, the trolls post however goads other trolls to retort and throw out their own post that in turns goads the initial troll, gaining more and more trolls as the size of the thread peaks the interest of onlookers to join, so you can say. So the laws of trolling are; For every reply to the initial post of a troll, there is a response in reaction to said replies from the troll itself, Trolls attract trolls, ????, What's this thread about again? See the page number.
42
\o/ |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 18:34:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Nylith Empyreal wrote:Confirming the growth of the thread is accelerated when you feed the trolls. It would appear as the troll is fed a post the thread gains yet another post from the troll itself, the trolls post however goads other trolls to retort and throw out their own post that in turns goads the initial troll, gaining more and more trolls as the size of the thread peaks the interest of onlookers to join, so you can say. So the laws of trolling are; For every reply to the initial post of a troll, there is a response in reaction to said replies from the troll itself, Trolls attract trolls, ????, What's this thread about again? See the page number. 42 \o/
That's brilliant.
???? has been changed to '42' aka the page point of no return and the answer to everything. -á |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 19:25:00 -
[1004] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:So why would a ship that spends its time sitting in a belt suckling on rocks that don't move require a faster align time than a front line warship? Someone just thought it would "replace T2 transport ships". I just wanted to show that with current stats it's not going to happen. Front line warship? Only place I can see Abaddons is Amarr main station undock. No-one is stupid enough to use armor ships in combat. It's only Drakes, Tengus, Hurricanes and weird shield tanked Gallente ships.
Jorma Morkkis
CURRENT CORPORATION State War Academy [SWA] from 2012.03.07 16:57 to this day
Listen to this guy....he won eve after a month.
They are called Hellcats you stupid ******.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12373116
|
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 19:40:00 -
[1005] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:The ehp on a hulk is fine. Small ships should be able to take it out in gangs. Providing it is properly fit....with tank. Hulks are not worth what they are being sold for....they are just sold that high because people can get away with it. I used a 14million isk frig to take out a 100million isk t2 fit raven before.....does that mean that the raven needs a buff? No it means people need to play smarter and tank their **** or use something that does tank. It really is simple as that. No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. And the eHP fits given here are only useful against a particular gank, but in general is the tank just weak. One can take out a cap with a frigate, if you let it. It is not a smart argument. Maybe when you want people to be smarter, then start with yourself.
I know my killboard isnt pretty....
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Whitehound#losses But Whitehound....damn
Kills Losses 1 Lifetime 9 0.14 bill ISK 0.68 bill 6.96 Points 55.52 3,788.00 Damage 201,325.00
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6065
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 19:50:00 -
[1006] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:so tippia if you just said you cant compare the two why did you compare the two in your initial statement? oxymoronic much!?!? GǪyou mean aside from the fact that I didn't?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:04:00 -
[1007] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:I know my killboard isn't pretty.... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Whitehound#lossesBut Whitehound....damn Kills Losses 1 Lifetime 9 0.14 bill ISK 0.68 bill 6.96 Points 55.52 3,788.00 Damage 201,325.00 You lost a freighter to a lone Vagabond....do you want freighter ehp buffed too? Or your fail fit thorax? Should it have more ehp so you can continue with the fail? You have a very short history of fail....do you really think that any advice you can provide is worth anyone's time? You mad? The fail fit Thorax killed the Vaga. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
564
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:05:00 -
[1008] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
dont mine ice
hey thats a hard one
Yes why I didn't think about that. It's not like a couple of things in game depend on it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
bornaa
GRiD.
208
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:06:00 -
[1009] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:The ehp on a hulk is fine. Small ships should be able to take it out in gangs. Providing it is properly fit....with tank. Hulks are not worth what they are being sold for....they are just sold that high because people can get away with it. I used a 14million isk frig to take out a 100million isk t2 fit raven before.....does that mean that the raven needs a buff? No it means people need to play smarter and tank their **** or use something that does tank. It really is simple as that. No, the eHP is not fine. One should only need to use the mid-slots and not every available option to get a decent tank out of it. And the eHP fits given here are only useful against a particular gank, but in general is the tank just weak. One can take out a cap with a frigate, if you let it. It is not a smart argument. Maybe when you want people to be smarter, then start with yourself. I know my killboard isn't pretty.... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Whitehound#lossesBut Whitehound....damn Kills Losses 1 Lifetime 9 0.14 bill ISK 0.68 bill 6.96 Points 55.52 3,788.00 Damage 201,325.00 You lost a freighter to a lone Vagabond....do you want freighter ehp buffed too? Or your fail fit thorax? Should it have more ehp so you can continue with the fail? You have a very short history of fail....do you really think that any advice you can provide is worth anyone's time?
I dont see connection between hulks ****** tank and that guys hill board. Hulk have ****** tank and noones KB will change that. Hulk need boost and i think it will get one.
But, why CCP throw this thread from GD when this is the thread with actual subject and discussion and there are many ****** threads left? That Ain't Right |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:08:00 -
[1010] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:I know my killboard isn't pretty.... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Whitehound#lossesBut Whitehound....damn Kills Losses 1 Lifetime 9 0.14 bill ISK 0.68 bill 6.96 Points 55.52 3,788.00 Damage 201,325.00 You lost a freighter to a lone Vagabond....do you want freighter ehp buffed too? Or your fail fit thorax? Should it have more ehp so you can continue with the fail? You have a very short history of fail....do you really think that any advice you can provide is worth anyone's time? You mad? The fail fit Thorax killed the Vaga.
Lol how could i be mad you had 3 others helping you.... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=11770966 And you can't really say you killed it.....you did nearly the lowest damage....you mad?
|
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:10:00 -
[1011] - Quote
Well, that only proves that everything can be destroyed just by adding more attackers.
We already have seen 30 man fleets ganking miners. What next? 60 man fleets? 100? 200? |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:10:00 -
[1012] - Quote
This is how EVE is. Some tackle, others bait, someone else brings the DPS. And, no, I am not mad. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:18:00 -
[1013] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Well, that only proves that everything can be destroyed just by adding more attackers. We already have seen 30 man fleets ganking miners. What next? 60 man fleets? 100? 200?
Why are you worried about 60 man fleets? At a month old you should be worried about core skills.
|
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:22:00 -
[1014] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Why are you worried about 60 man fleets? At a month old you should be worried about core skills. You should be worried about finding the topic of this thread. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
564
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:26:00 -
[1015] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Well I don't see such a big population increase to justify the rise of BPC requests. Yes I also have Tempest BPO, it was not so hot.
Nados get used for way more than ganking
Tempests too Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:27:00 -
[1016] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:Why are you worried about 60 man fleets? At a month old you should be worried about core skills. You should be worried about finding the topic of this thread.
Was replying to someone who quoted me. And as i have stated several times and other intelligent members of EVE. Hulks are fine. It's the pilots who decide Yield > Tank.
|
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:31:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:I know my killboard isn't pretty.... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Whitehound#lossesBut Whitehound....damn Kills Losses 1 Lifetime 9 0.14 bill ISK 0.68 bill 6.96 Points 55.52 3,788.00 Damage 201,325.00 You lost a freighter to a lone Vagabond....do you want freighter ehp buffed too? Or your fail fit thorax? Should it have more ehp so you can continue with the fail? You have a very short history of fail....do you really think that any advice you can provide is worth anyone's time?
Oh look killboard police. Unfortunately you are in the wrong topic for KB's
You muppet. |
Viira Khali'un
3-Prong Operational Resources The Fendahlian Collective
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:42:00 -
[1018] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:This was ages ago, but still makes me laugh.
I think it was in 2006 if I remember correctly. My corp at the time was part of the ASCN and we had a mining op going on in null. HULKS were still pretty rare at that time (and a lot more expensive than now), and our CEO had just purchased one and swore up and down that they had a great tank.
He asked us to open fire on him to test it.
We deactivated our launchers after he started screaming on VENT for us to stop shooting him. We stopped shooting him but quite a few missiles were still in flight and heading his way.
BOOM.
He owned it for all of 15 minutes or so between purchase and it getting blown to shreds.
Afterwards, a Mercenary Coalition interceptor grabbed his pod in the same system at the gate and blew up his multi billion isk implant set.
And he forgot to update his clone before that. ;)
Ow....just....ow.....talk about having a bad day >_<
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:42:00 -
[1019] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Because empire space is simply swarming with 30 man gank squads looking to blow up ships for no profit.
That's why they do it for fun. |
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:42:00 -
[1020] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
And as I have stated several times and other intelligent memebers of EVE. Hulk are bad.
In what way? |
|
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:43:00 -
[1021] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Ildryn wrote:
Was replying to someone who quoted me. And as i have stated several times and other intelligent members of EVE. Hulks are fine. It's the pilots who decide Yield > Tank.
And as I have stated several times and other intelligent memebers of EVE. Hulk are bad.
Meh...then go for yield. Good luck in the belts.
|
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:43:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
That's why they do it for fun.
So where are they? |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:43:00 -
[1023] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There is nothing extream about fitting a T2 tank. Fit your T2s the way you like. If this is how you fit them then I know a desperate man. |
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:46:00 -
[1024] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:There is nothing extream about fitting a T2 tank. Fit your T2s the way you like. If this is how you fit them then I know a desperate man.
No, its called being smart. Desperate is crying to CCP to change a perfectly fine ship because you want the tank without making any sacrifices to your isk flow. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:49:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:A lot of shield/armor tanks on combat ships utilize both mids and lows. Armor tank with cap booster. Shield tank with shield power relays. So why should a hulk be any different for tank? Firstly, because the Hulk does not have a decent tank and secondly do you fit webs and scrams and damage mods on combat ships. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:51:00 -
[1026] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No, its called being smart. Desperate is crying to CCP to change a perfectly fine ship because you want the tank without making any sacrifices to your isk flow. No, desperate is when you do not know what the other one is saying and your brain runs off into dreamland where all people cry and do not talk. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:53:00 -
[1027] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
And as I have stated several times and other intelligent memebers of EVE. Hulk are bad.
In what way?
As I have already stated. And with legitimate arguements. My opinion will remain that hulk's are in a bad place. You disagree, thats your perogative.
All you come up with is tank tank tank. What you are totally forgetting is a combat ship, can also attack attack attack when ganked. This is also a form of defence. Combat ships have Tank and guns to protect themselves. That puts the Hulk in a pretty damned disadvantage i would say.
o7
|
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:54:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, desperate is when you do not know what the other one is saying and your brain runs off into dreamland where all people cry and do not talk.
So wake up and stop crying about the hulk not having a tank when it clearly does. |
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:56:00 -
[1029] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
As I have already stated. And with legitimate arguements. My opinion will remain that hulk's are in a bad place. You disagree, thats your perogative.
All you come up with is tank tank tank. What you are totally forgetting is a combat ship, can also attack attack attack when ganked. This is also a form of defence. Combat ships have Tank and guns to protect themselves. That puts the Hulk in a pretty damned disadvantage i would say.
The hulk has the best guns of all. Concord. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:58:00 -
[1030] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So wake up and stop crying about the hulk not having a tank when it clearly does. Again, you are just desperate. No one said the mining ships have no tank. Your head is still far away in dreamland ... maybe you should take a break from posting. |
|
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:00:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:A lot of shield/armor tanks on combat ships utilize both mids and lows. Armor tank with cap booster. Shield tank with shield power relays. So why should a hulk be any different for tank? Firstly, because the Hulk does not have a decent tank and secondly do you fit webs and scrams and damage mods on combat ships.
Depends on the ship. My carrier is armor tanked with cap mods for tank in the mids..low/mid slot tank. Ishtar for running level 4 missions semi/afk has a shield tank with shield power relays in it.
Not all combat ships fit your perfect scenario of tank only low or mid slots.
|
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:01:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wake up and stop crying about the hulk not having a tank when it clearly does. Again, you are just desperate. No one said the mining ships have no tank. Your head is still far away in dreamland ... maybe you should take a break from posting.
No matter how many times you say something vague about being desperate, the fact still is the hulk does just fine. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:03:00 -
[1033] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No matter how many times you say something vague about being desperate, the fact still is the hulk does just fine. No, and you have been given many arguments. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
12
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:04:00 -
[1034] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
As I have already stated. And with legitimate arguements. My opinion will remain that hulk's are in a bad place. You disagree, thats your perogative.
All you come up with is tank tank tank. What you are totally forgetting is a combat ship, can also attack attack attack when ganked. This is also a form of defence. Combat ships have Tank and guns to protect themselves. That puts the Hulk in a pretty damned disadvantage i would say.
The hulk has the best guns of all. Concord.
OFC they do, and so does every other ship in Hi sec. Should you reduce the tank of all ships, for this reason? |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:08:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Why would you reduce the ehp of all ships? We are talking about exhumers here. Ships known to favor mining yield over tank in lore and common sense, Get on topic muppet. Lead the way, troll. |
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:09:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, and you have been given many arguments.
All of which have been proven to be wrong. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:10:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:So wake up and stop crying about the hulk not having a tank when it clearly does. Can you give a fit for Hulk that can tank 1500 dps therm/kin?
Now you are reaching....
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:11:00 -
[1038] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Now you are reaching....
Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:12:00 -
[1039] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:No, and we shouldn't increase the tank of ships that don't need it. They should not give forum access to people who cannot argue and yet they do. Truth is, you cannot argue and you do not like it. Come back when you have a point. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:13:00 -
[1040] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:All of which have been proven to be wrong. In your dreamland, I am sure. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6069
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:14:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No one said the mining ships have no tank. No-one except you, on multiple occasionsGǪ
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps. Not really, no.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:15:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
As I have already stated. And with legitimate arguements. My opinion will remain that hulk's are in a bad place. You disagree, thats your perogative.
All you come up with is tank tank tank. What you are totally forgetting is a combat ship, can also attack attack attack when ganked. This is also a form of defence. Combat ships have Tank and guns to protect themselves. That puts the Hulk in a pretty damned disadvantage i would say.
The hulk has the best guns of all. Concord. OFC they do, and so does every other ship in Hi sec. Should you reduce the tank of all ships, for this reason? Why would you reduce the ehp of all ships? We are talking about exhumers here. Ships known to favor mining yield over tank in lore and common sense, Get on topic muppet.
way to miss the point.
and btw imitation is a form of flattery |
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:16:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ildryn wrote:Now you are reaching.... Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps.
Thats the kind of firepower a vindicator gets... |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:17:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps. Not really, no.
Yes, it can.
Cormack's magstabs, rof and small hybrid dmg implants. Of course you have to be in Wolf-Rayet C6. |
baltec1
1090
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:22:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps. Not really, no. Yes, it can. Cormack's magstabs, rof and small hybrid dmg implants. Of course you have to be in Wolf-Rayet C6.
Officer magstabs... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6069
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:23:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Yes, it can.
Cormack's magstabs, rof and small hybrid dmg implants. Of course you have to be in Wolf-Rayet C6. So no, since we're talking about ganks here.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:25:00 -
[1047] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
way to miss the point.
and btw imitation is a form of flattery
Mockery is a form of ridicule/contempt. Way to miss my intended meaning.
|
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:28:00 -
[1048] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Mockery is a form of ridicule/contempt. Way to miss my intended meaning. So I guess it is good that you are explaining it to us then, right? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:30:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So no, since we're talking about ganks here.
Too expensive? Well, still over 1000 dps with cheap T2 magstabs.
I thought gankers like to take risks... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:30:00 -
[1050] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ildryn wrote:Now you are reaching.... Solo Catalyst can put out 1500+ dps. Thats the kind of firepower a vindicator gets...
Or phoon or domi or talos or naga... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
|
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
42
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:31:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Ildryn wrote:Mockery is a form of ridicule/contempt. Way to miss my intended meaning. So I guess it is good that you are explaining it to us then, right?
Before i got into this friendly debate i should have remembered that hulks are fine and they wont be changed anytime soon. And just continue ganking them.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6070
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:33:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Too expensive? Well, still over 1000 dps with cheap T2 magstabs. No, not that either, and no, it's not just a matter of expense, but of location. The conditions required don't exist in the context being discussed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
lanyaie
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:33:00 -
[1053] - Quote
While we're at it we should give the falcon a dps boost and the badger a bonus to missile damage per skill level oh and lets give jumpfreighters half the tank of a super because they cost about half as much (i know they dont really but you get the point)
You're probably saying thats bs because those ships have intended roles, well guess what? The HULK is not intended to just mine without risk have a uber tank etc. If you want to make sure you dont get ganked, Get an orca with mining. Bonuses and shield transporters?fit a ******* TANK get a offgrid tengu booster and start mining. Oh and btw since you probably are too stupid to know fit a tank on your offgrid booster also.
I dont post often, but when I do i'm probably trolling you |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:34:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Before i got into this friendly debate i should have remembered that hulks are fine and they wont be changed anytime soon. And just continue ganking them. And I will continue loving you. |
Whitehound
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:36:00 -
[1055] - Quote
lanyaie wrote:You're probably saying thats bs ... 0/10
Your comment is lacking the balls to be BS. You are only off topic. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:38:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Too expensive? Well, still over 1000 dps with cheap T2 magstabs. No, not that either, and no, it's not just a matter of expense, but of location. The conditions required don't exist in the context being discussed.
Just go through wormhole. It's not that difficult. Surviving there isn't a problem if you know how to use probes and d-scan, because there is no local and intel channels. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:43:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:Before i got into this friendly debate i should have remembered that hulks are fine and they wont be changed anytime soon. And just continue ganking them.
I dont care if its changed or not. I have already stated that. I'll play my game with the tools given to me. I have also stated the hulk for solo play is exceptionally balanced. My concern is for fleets. where it falls short.
It is your game to play as you choose. Go ahead and gank the greedy ones. more roids for me.
|
Ildryn
The Inf1dels GIANTSBANE.
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:43:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Too expensive? Well, still over 1000 dps with cheap T2 magstabs. No, not that either, and no, it's not just a matter of expense, but of location. The conditions required don't exist in the context being discussed. Just go through wormhole. It's not that difficult. Surviving there isn't a problem if you know how to use probes and d-scan, because there is no local and intel channels.
And he would know with his month old character.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6070
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:47:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Just go through wormhole. GǪwhere there is no CONCORD, making it a not-suicide gank, meaning the DPS becomes quite irrelevant since you don't have a very short window in which to kill the guy before you auto-explode.
So no. Try about 700 for the context being discussed here, with a Hulk can tank quite nicely for the time required to survive. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:53:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So no. Try about 700 for the context being discussed here, with a Hulk can tank quite nicely for the time required to survive.
True, if it's only one Cat. But that's not always the case. Usually they run in small groups (2-4 Cats/Trashers) and sometimes in 30 man Catalyst fleets. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6071
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 21:58:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:True, if it's only one Cat. But that's not always the case. Usually they run in small groups (2-4 Cats/Trashers) and sometimes in 30 man Catalyst fleets. GǪat which point we have a situation where several ships beats one ship, which seems wonderfully suitable.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 22:03:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪat which point we have a situation where several ships beats one ship, which seems wonderfully suitable.
Easy mode... |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 22:42:00 -
[1063] - Quote
So as a highsec carebear I demand to buff the 17 k ehp of a Tengu, or the 48 k ehp of a Machariel, when fitted for max damage. A Tengu can be soloed by one Tornado and costs between 650 and 2000 mil. I don't see the missionrunners whining, because they know they sacrifice security over efficiency.
Some Miners actually don't get it. |
Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 22:58:00 -
[1064] - Quote
July Oumis wrote:So as a highsec carebear I demand to buff the 17 k ehp of a Tengu, or the 48 k ehp of a Machariel, when fitted for max damage. A Tengu can be soloed by one Tornado and costs between 650 and 2000 mil. I don't see the missionrunners whining, because they know they sacrifice security over efficiency.
Some Miners actually don't get it. No, you do not get it. Mission runners do not whine, because they use the offence as their defence. Mining ships are ships designed to be victims and this is what we do not need in EVE. Everyone can and shall become a victim and it does not need 300m ISK coffins to artificially shift the balance onto the miners. Players have been ganking mining ships for years, mostly for fun, but they also do it because the game designers created this "profession of being a victim". CCP is slowly letting go off it as you can see with ships like the Noctis and the Primea. Even the Primea (the little PI ship) features 175 PG. |
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 23:06:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No, you do not get it. Mission runners do not whine, because they use the offence as their defence.
Defense against what? Mission runners almost never avoid ganks by killing potential gankers.
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Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 23:20:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Plus 1 wrote:Defense against what? Mission runners almost never avoid ganks by killing potential gankers. I meant for mission runners doing what they are doing. My statement is also true for most combat ships and I am not talking about ganking in general, because my understanding is that every ship can get ganked.
The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state. What people do with the extra power grid is their business.
Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6075
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 23:26:00 -
[1067] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No, you do not get it. Mission runners do not whine, because they use the offence as their defence. No, they don't, because that offence has no chance of making any difference. In fact, using that offence is a very bad idea, since it invalidates the opportunity of revenge you'd get.
Quote:CCP is slowly letting go off it as you can see with ships like the Noctis and the Primea. Oh, you mean those ships that are even easier to kill than the Hulk? No, they don't particularly signify any kind of change in how they design industrial ships.
Quote:The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state That can already be done by fitting them with a tank. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 23:29:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Plus 1 wrote:Defense against what? Mission runners almost never avoid ganks by killing potential gankers. I meant for mission runners doing what they are doing. My statement is also true for most combat ships and I am not talking about ganking in general, because my understanding is that every ship can get ganked. The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state. What people do with the extra power grid is their business. Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims? If "designed to be victims" means they should continue being non-combat ships, then yeah, they could stay that way.
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Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:01:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Plus 1 wrote:If "designed to be victims" means they should continue being non-combat ships, then yeah, they could stay that way. Thank you. I would not dream of giving them gunnery bonuses. The mining ships should only have the ability to reach eHP values close to those of the T1 and T2 industrial ships without exceeding them or copying any of their bonuses like cloaks or warp scramble strength or just their active tanking bonuses. The Hulk already comes with a bonus to passive tanking, but can at best only reach half the eHP of a much cheaper T2 transporter fitted with a primitive shield tank (i.e. 2x LSE II, 1x AIF II gives about 50k eHP on a Mastodon). A supertanked T2 transporter can easily reach 80k eHP and more. The game designers' argument was that T2 transporters shall operate in harsh environments, but we all know that this can only mean in all of EVE. Nor does there a save zone exist where mining ships can operate in for the same reason. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1213
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:05:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims?
Look, the reason people are concerned about losing their Hulks is not because Hulks are easy to kill, it's because people want to kill Hulks. Why do people want to kill Hulks? Because when they do, they are rewarded with tears, and mega-rage-threads like this one.
If people complained this much about being ranked with an Iteron full of 5B ISK worth of blueprints, more gankers would be hunting down those Iterons. The catch is there aren't that many people flying 5B ISK Iterons around, but there are plenty of foolish pilots flying Hulks with three Cargohold Optimization rigs and two Expanded Cargobay IIs in the lowslots.
Here's the first step to tanking your Hulk: DO NOT FIT FOR CARGO. A naked Hulk has about 8000m3 cargo capacity. You really don't need more than that.
Here's the second step to tanking your Hulk: DO IT IN A FLEET. Just about every ship with improved resistances as part of the bonuses is considered a fleet ship. Why is that? The resistances make them easier to repair. So you combine your innate resistances, the fleet bonuses and a few resistance modules to get really good resistances. The bonuses for the Hulk are to shields, so you'd fly in a fleet with a Tengu booster (not a Vulture, with it's ****-weak 3% per level) carrying the shield harmonisation link.
Here's the third step to tanking your Hulk: fit for yield. If you fit for yield, you will be finishing up sites faster, which means you're hanging around in space for less time, and you have to pay attention to the screen. Thus you will be seeing people entering local, you will be monitoring D-scan. This is the mining equivalent of "gank tanking".
Of course, I'd love it if I could fit a 30k EHP buffer while simultaneously being able to fit two MLUs. I'd love it if I could use saved fittings to adjust my Hulk's fitting from the Orca fitting service. I'd love it if the Orca could be fitted with an MWD and three gang links at the same time.
In the meantime, I have to play with the cards I'm dealt.
|
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Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:09:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Look, ...
Rant ...
In the meantime, I have to play with the cards I'm dealt. No, you look. When you quote a question then this is a card you got dealt. Answer it and do not rant about. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6075
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:14:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No, you look. When you quote a question then this is a card you got dealt. Answer it and do not rant about. He did answer it: the design is not where the victimisation happens. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:17:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Tippia wrote:He did answer it: the design is not where the victimisation happens. If you think it did then why can you not shut up? When I think I was not given a proper response do I keep posting, too. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1213
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:21:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state. What people do with the extra power grid is their business.
Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims?
No I do not agree with you that not increasing the PG of a Hulk means that it is a ship designed for victims.
Victim mentality is designed for victims. Victim mentality is that state in which you only perceive the weaknesses of your state, have no intention of addressing those weaknesses, and expect everyone else to take pity on you to fix your situation.
The current design of a Hulk allows you to produce much higher yields than any other mining ship. The expense of the hull makes it a popular target for killboard stuffers. As a Hulk pilot, you cannot afford to be complacent. Stop looking at the problem as "CCP needs to fix this" and look at it from the point of view of "what can I do to fix this?"
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Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:30:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Fail to disagree ... More rant ... The current design of a Hulk allows you to produce much higher yields than any other mining ship. The expense of the hull makes it a popular target for killboard stuffers. As a Hulk pilot, you cannot afford to be complacent. Stop looking at the problem as "CCP needs to fix this" and look at it from the point of view of "what can I do to fix this?" The reason for why the Hulk can produce much higher yields than any other mining ship is simple. It is the top of its class. However, any pilot should be able to be complacent or else the pilot is a victim. Not being complacent and not being able to be complacent is a definition of a victim. The moment you put yourself into a mining ship do you victimise yourself. It is the reason for most players to avoid mining like hell. But I do have very little hope that this is something you will be able to understand. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6075
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:39:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:If you think it did then why can you not shut up? Because you obviously misread his post and need to be pointed in the right direction.
Quote:However, any pilot should be able to be complacent or else the pilot is a victim. Why should pilots be able to be complacent without it making them victims? After all, that's how self-created victimsGǪ wellGǪ create themselves.
Oh, and he didn't GÇ£fail to disagreeGÇ¥ with you. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1213
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:41:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:GǪ any pilot should be able to be complacent or else the pilot is a victim.
There is no facepalm great enough to express the culture of failure embodied within that statement.
No matter what ship you fly, the moment you start becoming complacent you may as well stick a huge "please shoot me" sign on your ship. Even leaving your empty hauler idle off a gate because you didn't set the autopilot to the station is being complacent. Eventually someone is going to get bored and gank you just because it's been too long since the last explosion.
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Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:49:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Because you obviously misread his post and need to be pointed in the right direction. No, because you cannot ever shut up and I have to put you on ignore again.
Quote:Why should pilots be able to be complacent without it making them victims? After all, that's how self-created victimsGǪ wellGǪ create themselves. Do not flatter yourself. You are only dumb but not a victim. |
Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:51:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:There is no facepalm great enough to express the culture of failure embodied within that statement.
No matter what ship you fly, the moment you start becoming complacent you may as well stick a huge "please shoot me" sign on your ship. Even leaving your empty hauler idle off a gate because you didn't set the autopilot to the station is being complacent. Eventually someone is going to get bored and gank you just because it's been too long since the last explosion. This is what you tell yourself to keep motivated. The moment you do do you become complacent. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6075
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:56:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No, because you cannot ever shut up and I have to put you on ignore again. Why would I shut up when there's still so much that needs to be explained to you?
Quote:Do not flatter yourself. You are only dumb but not a victim. Why can't you answer the question? Why shouldn't complacency create victims?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
|
Whitehound
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 00:59:00 -
[1081] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:No, because you cannot ever shut up and I have to put you on ignore again. Why would I shut up when there's still so much that needs to be explained to you? Quote:Do not flatter yourself. You are only dumb but not a victim. Why can't you answer the question? Why shouldn't complacency create victims? You want an explanation from me? You shall have one!
No one said that you shall not become a victim. The point was that if you cannot become complacent then you already are a victim.
Going to bed, talk to you tomorrow, Tippitappi. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6075
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 01:03:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:No one said that you shall not become a victim. The point was that if you cannot become complacent then you already are a victim. Good thing that you can always become complacent, then. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
EVE Stig
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 01:48:00 -
[1083] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Ildryn wrote:
Was replying to someone who quoted me. And as i have stated several times and other intelligent members of EVE. Hulks are fine. It's the pilots who decide Yield > Tank.
And as I have stated several times and other intelligent memebers of EVE. Hulk are bad. Meh...then go for yield. Good luck in the belts.
I have friends that do this. And you do it where there arent people. Dont need luck
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:No one said that you shall not become a victim. The point was that if you cannot become complacent then you already are a victim. Good thing that you can always become complacent, then.
Once you have to change what you do you become a victim. "Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him." "Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"! |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1218
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 06:12:00 -
[1084] - Quote
EVE Stig wrote:Once you have to change what you do you become a victim.
WTF?
ITT: people who do not understand what "complacency" means, and confuse "adapting to a changing environment" with "victim mentality".
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 06:13:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, they don't, because that offence has no chance of making any difference. In fact, using that offence is a very bad idea, since it invalidates the opportunity of revenge you'd get.
And again you talk about easy mode pvp.
Mara Rinn wrote:The current design of a Hulk allows you to produce much higher yields than any other mining ship.
Nope.
Max yield Cov > max tank Hulk Non-mining ships also get quite close.
And when easy mode pvp'ed losing a Cov isn't a big deal. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 08:19:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Plus 1 wrote:Defense against what? Mission runners almost never avoid ganks by killing potential gankers. I meant for mission runners doing what they are doing. My statement is also true for most combat ships and I am not talking about ganking in general, because my understanding is that every ship can get ganked. The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state. What people do with the extra power grid is their business. Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims?
This pathetic state being able to feild a tank able to fend off 3 1400mm tornados easily and also having the option of being the best miner money can buy. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 08:47:00 -
[1087] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Whitehound wrote:Plus 1 wrote:Defense against what? Mission runners almost never avoid ganks by killing potential gankers. I meant for mission runners doing what they are doing. My statement is also true for most combat ships and I am not talking about ganking in general, because my understanding is that every ship can get ganked. The only need for a change I see currently is the one regarding the power grid and to get mining ships out of their pathetic state. What people do with the extra power grid is their business. Do you agree with me or do you say we need ships designed for victims? This pathetic state being able to feild a tank able to fend off 3 1400mm tornados easily and also having the option of being the best miner money can buy.
Here is a question.
How would giving a Hulk extra HP, change the game for the worse?
All I see, is Gankers having to be a little bit more organized. Which is a good thing yes?. it's an MMO afterall . Fleet play and all that.
Please tell me the down sides of this.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:02:00 -
[1088] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This pathetic state being able to feild a tank able to fend off 3 1400mm tornados easily and also having the option of being the best miner money can buy.
How do you get 50k EHP without spending billions on officer mods? |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:07:00 -
[1089] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Here is a question.
How would giving a Hulk extra HP, change the game for the worse?
All I see, is Gankers having to be a little bit more organized. Which is a good thing yes?. it's an MMO afterall . Fleet play and all that.
Please tell me the down sides of this.
Aside from being utterly unnessary and a waste of dev time needed on ships which are broken it would mean hulks could become all but untouchable in high sec. They would also stop being a ship of choice. Right now you can have a great tank or go for great yeild with drawbacks to both options. Buff the hulk and it becomes great at everything. Theres is also no point at all in fixing something that is not broken because you inevatably break it. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:09:00 -
[1090] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:This pathetic state being able to feild a tank able to fend off 3 1400mm tornados easily and also having the option of being the best miner money can buy. How do you get 50k EHP without spending billions on officer mods? Edit: That's of course if they only get one volley/Tornado. If they're lucky, double that. 33k is enough |
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:11:00 -
[1091] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:33k is enough
Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage.
17000 x 3 = 51000
If they get two volleys:
51000 x 2 = 102000 |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:18:00 -
[1092] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
Here is a question.
How would giving a Hulk extra HP, change the game for the worse?
All I see, is Gankers having to be a little bit more organized. Which is a good thing yes?. it's an MMO afterall . Fleet play and all that.
Please tell me the down sides of this.
Aside from being utterly unnessary and a waste of dev time needed on ships which are broken it would mean hulks could become all but untouchable in high sec. They would also stop being a ship of choice. Right now you can have a great tank or go for great yeild with drawbacks to both options. Buff the hulk and it becomes great at everything. Theres is also no point at all in fixing something that is not broken because you inevatably break it.
How would it make the hulk untouchable. Many times it's been said, Several ships killing 1 ship is acceptable. Dev time? All it needs is extra PG. Rig size says the Hulk is a cruiser sized class. yet it has the PG of a frigate. You can still make a choice to tank or yield. The Hulk is the best mining ship out there. It should be the best at everything for mining,
It not broken is your opinion. This does not make you correct or incorrect.
o7
|
Kreeia Dgore
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:19:00 -
[1093] - Quote
Why the hell should we fit hulks to max tank? If we do that, the yield will be lollish. The hulk isn't a ship meant to be tank-fitted. It has no reliable resist bonuses, lousy ammount of shields/armor/structure hp and even too few slots to apply a decent tank AND be able to do what the ship was designed for. We CAN do a turtle hulkie, but then, why the hell, the ship is supposed to mine? If it doesn't mine well, which turtle hulkie simply doesn't, it is as good as useless. This whole problem rose from ccp buffing destroyers, adding superganking BCs and ignoring affect it has on miners. Bots dont care, living players, which will be the most crucial part in mineral business after inferno, are seriously downgraded by that. => Not a matter of players not fitting well, it is a matter of devs neglecting something. And like that it should be wiewed and handled. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:21:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:33k is enough Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage. 17000 x 3 = 51000 If they get two volleys: 51000 x 2 = 102000
They dont hit for 17000 |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:24:00 -
[1095] - Quote
Kreeia Dgore wrote:Why the hell should we fit hulks to max tank? If we do that, the yield will be lollish. The hulk isn't a ship meant to be tank-fitted. It has no reliable resist bonuses, lousy ammount of shields/armor/structure hp and even too few slots to apply a decent tank AND be able to do what the ship was designed for. We CAN do a turtle hulkie, but then, why the hell, the ship is supposed to mine? If it doesn't mine well, which turtle hulkie simply doesn't, it is as good as useless. This whole problem rose from ccp buffing destroyers, adding superganking BCs and ignoring affect it has on miners. Bots dont care, living players, which will be the most crucial part in mineral business after inferno, are seriously downgraded by that. => Not a matter of players not fitting well, it is a matter of devs neglecting something. And like that it should be wiewed and handled.
It will mine just as much as a t2 covetor with a t2 mining upgrade and get a bigger cargo hold and a much much better buffer. Of course, you dont have to go max tank and simply go half half. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:28:00 -
[1096] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:They dont hit for 17000
Yes, they do.
baltec1 wrote:It will mine just as much as a t2 covetor with a t2 mining upgrade and get a bigger cargo hold and a much much better buffer.
Covetor with one MLU pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk. Hell, even Rokh pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:31:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:They dont hit for 17000 Yes, they do.
Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:35:00 -
[1098] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants.
In highsec.
T2 guns, 5% dmg implant, and yes, perfect gunnery skills. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:39:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. In highsec.
Show the fit. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:41:00 -
[1100] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:It will mine just as much as a t2 covetor with a t2 mining upgrade and get a bigger cargo hold and a much much better buffer. Covetor with one MLU pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk. Hell, even Rokh pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk.
SupertankHulk gets a built in MLU II and 3 t2 modulated strip miners. |
|
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:44:00 -
[1101] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. In highsec. T2 guns, 5% dmg implant, and yes, perfect gunnery skills.
Still not close with a +6 implant. |
Wuxi Wuxilla
Wuxi Corporation
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:47:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Quote: Covetor with one MLU pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk. Hell, even Rokh pulls in more ore than tank fit Hulk.
Show me that Rokh fit then, because my EFT clearly tells me something quite different.
Even with absolutely no tank (which puts a Rokh at barely more tank than a fully tanked Hulk) I still only get 1059 yield per minute A 35k EHP Hulk (with EHP/PG Implants) is at 1302 yield per minute. Even with t1 strips a Hulk would always outmine a Rokh.
A dual Mining Laser Upgrade Covetor pulls in 1345 yield per minute (and is way above its CPU capacities) |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:48:00 -
[1103] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Let me guess, in a WH, with officer fittings and +6 implants. In highsec. T2 guns, 5% dmg implant, and yes, perfect gunnery skills. Still not close with a +6 implant.
This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.
But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:49:00 -
[1104] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Still not close with a +6 implant.
So artillery doesn't have highest volley damage? Strange... |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:52:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:Show me that Rokh fit then, because my EFT clearly tells me something quite different.
Use T2 mining crystals. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 09:59:00 -
[1106] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.
But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?
A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:02:00 -
[1107] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:Show me that Rokh fit then, because my EFT clearly tells me something quite different. Use T2 mining crystals.
It can't. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
204
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:03:00 -
[1108] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient.
You'll still get blown up though, and it will cost you a HELL OF A LOT MORE than a Covetor, oh and you'll get your money back for the lost ship. Also Covetors aren't as big a target. In simple terms, Covetors are a LOT more cost effective in the scenario you have given. Hulks will die anyway and will leave a large gaping hole in your wallet.
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:04:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:baltec1 wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:
You CAN do this, but then your mining yield is reduces to near that of a Covetor, so why would you use a hulk at all?
To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient. You'll still get blown up though, and it will cost you a HELL OF A LOT MORE than a Covetor, oh and you'll get your money back for the lost ship. Also Covetors aren't as big a target. In simple terms, Covetors are a LOT more cost effective in the scenario you have given. Hulks will die anyway and will leave a large gaping hole in your wallet.
Name a destroyer than can burn through 33k of 80% resist buffer before concord shows up. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:05:00 -
[1110] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up.
Pal can do ~15k volleys (perfect hit) with T2 Tachs and Gleam. You say Arty can't do higher volleys. |
|
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:07:00 -
[1111] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.
But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?
A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up.
Thankyou.
o7 |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:07:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up. Pal can do ~15k volleys (perfect hit) with T2 Tachs and Gleam. You say Arty can't do higher volleys.
I say your pal is either a capital pilot or a lier. |
Wuxi Wuxilla
Wuxi Corporation
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:07:00 -
[1113] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.
But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?
A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up.
This.
Also, I used tII mining crystals (obviously). Not on the Rokh though (obviously)
For 48 pages you've been spewing the same bullshit, talking about inflated numbers on everything but your precious hulks. This is not a combat ship. It does not need utility, it was not made for flying around solo. That's like complaining that Logistics get blown up when flown solo into combat. You either realize that or you will lose it. Again and again and again and nobody can help you because the only one at fault is you. (And how bloody hard can it be to stay aligned - yes, you can actually switch the celestial you're aligned to once you drift to far away from the asteroids - and watch local/d-scan?) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:11:00 -
[1114] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I say your pal is either a capital pilot or a lier.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eve+online+paladin |
Wuxi Wuxilla
Wuxi Corporation
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:15:00 -
[1115] - Quote
A Paladin with 7 Heat Sinks II, TachII with Gleam, a tII Collision Accelerator Rig and 5% Dmg Implants gets 7266 volleys with Gleam. Even the biggest wrecking shots your confused brain seems to imagine don't make that 15k. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:16:00 -
[1116] - Quote
Paladin, gets just over 7k alpha with officer heatsinks in all of the lows and a t2 damage rig. Lieing to someone who has flown a nightmare for years in not the best of ideas. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:20:00 -
[1117] - Quote
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:baltec1 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just me being curious, because I genuinely don't know.
But what about with max fleet boosts, does that become close?
A maelstrom with nothing but gyros, a t2 damage rig, full rack of T2 1400s, quake, and 4 guad IIs only manages just less than 12500. Thats the best I can get in subcap artillery. Add in implants ect and you still dont get 17000. These numbers are made up. This. Also, I used tII mining crystals (obviously). Not on the Rokh though (obviously) For 48 pages you've been spewing the same bullshit, talking about inflated numbers on everything but your precious hulks. This is not a combat ship. It does not need utility, it was not made for flying around solo. That's like complaining that Logistics get blown up when flown solo into combat. You either realize that or you will lose it. Again and again and again and nobody can help you because the only one at fault is you. (And how bloody hard can it be to stay aligned - yes, you can actually switch the celestial you're aligned to once you drift to far away from the asteroids - and watch local/d-scan?)
I dont know who you are directing this to, but I am quoted here as well.
Not once have I given numbers. Not once have I said the counter arguement is wrong. Not once have I disrespected those that have given a valid counter aguement.
Infact if you had read all 48 pages, I somewhat agree with them. I dont care if it's buffed or not. I just believe the hulk is not in a good place for fleet roles.
So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:21:00 -
[1118] - Quote
And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.
It has enough CPU to use better lasers. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:21:00 -
[1119] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
I dont know who you are directing this to, but I am quoted here as well.
Not once have I given numbers. Not once have I said the counter arguement is wrong. Not once have I disrespected those that have given a valid counter aguement.
Infact if you had read all 48 pages, I somewhat agree with them. I dont care if it's buffed or not. I just believe the hulk is not in a good place for fleet roles.
So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.
I wasnt |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:24:00 -
[1120] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.
It has enough CPU to use better lasers.
You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it. |
|
Wuxi Wuxilla
Wuxi Corporation
13
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:30:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Quote:So if that is directed at me then please troll harder.
It wasn't. I just can't be bothered to quote every single instance of bullshit in this thread.
Quote: And no-one is stupid enough to use 8x Miner II in Rokh, if you're going to mine with it.
It has enough CPU to use better lasers.
Show me those magical miners you'd put on a rokh. I'm very interested in them.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:31:00 -
[1122] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it.
I want to see your officer Tornado alpha'ing Rokh with 72k EHP. And that's therm hole by the way.
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:Show me those magical miners you'd put on a rokh. I'm very interested in them.
Could you people start using your own brains...?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=evelopedia+modulated+deep+core+miner+II |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:35:00 -
[1123] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You end up with a paperthin Rokh that can mine 1446 ore but has a massive EM hole. A tornado could probably alpha it. I want to see your officer Tornado alpha'ing Rokh with 72k EHP. And that's therm hole by the way.
41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive. The hulk would tank more. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:40:00 -
[1124] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive.
And I thought I had crap shield skills...
3x LSE II 1x AIF II 1x EM Ward II 3x CDFE I
72k against therm. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
567
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:41:00 -
[1125] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:33k is enough Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage. 17000 x 3 = 51000 If they get two volleys: 51000 x 2 = 102000 They dont hit for 17000, not even a maelstrom can get close to that.
If anyone wanted numbers, I have tried with my Mael, with RF EMP it gets to a max of 11600 damage a volley. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:45:00 -
[1126] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:41k EHP in EFT and a huge 25% EM resistance hole. The ship wont tank 41k when an EMP gank nado punches through that hole, it will be lucky to survive. And I thought I had crap shield skills... 3x LSE II 1x AIF II 1x EM Ward II 3x CDFE I 71k against therm.
And it now mines less than a tanked hulk and has a laughable cargo hold.. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:47:00 -
[1127] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:And it now mines less than a tanked hulk.
More than tank fit Hulk. Ever heard of Mining Laser Upgrades?
Are you sure you have trained your support skills? You should have enough CPU for 8x MDCM, tank and 3x MLU2. |
Avila Cracko
324
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:50:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Still the same three guys are afraid of OP paper thin hulk??? And writing the same old lies and only their "facts" are true?
Hulk is ****, everything was boosted over the years and only industry equipment is same old ****. truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:55:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:And it now mines less than a tanked hulk. More than tank fit Hulk. Ever heard of Mining Laser Upgrades?
Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 10:57:00 -
[1130] - Quote
Avila Cracko wrote:Still the same three guys are afraid of the current hulk??? And writing the same old lies and only their "facts" are true? Hulk is good, everything was boosted over the years and industry equipment is still perfectly fine
Fixed. |
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 11:00:00 -
[1131] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo.
Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game. |
baltec1
1091
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 11:02:00 -
[1132] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo. Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game.
The vast bulk of miners however do mine alone. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 11:24:00 -
[1133] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Fiddled with your fit and got a 116k EHP rokh that mines 60 more than a supertank hulk with a cargo hold that can store one run. So a solo hulk is still better than this thing solo. Orca... Also the fact that this isn't a singleplayer game. The vast bulk of miners however do mine alone.
Which supports my belief. The hulk is in a bad place within a fleet.
o7 |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 11:26:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Obviously this thread was getting too much attention in GD...
The industrial and industrial-related ships in EVE have always been "weak" of course, The Wreath for example barely has more HP than a rookie ship (99 Shield HP? The Ibis gets about 150 ). Part of this is that the industrial ships IIRC bypassed at least one of the HP buffs which were designed to prolong combat.
None of this, nor the changed 'landscape' in which the ships have to operate from the destroyer un-nerf or the introduction of the Tier 3 BCs can really be classed as a balance reason for a buff, but they could be classed as contributory factors...
Not just the environment has changed of course. MLUs saw an impressive increase in CPU draw with (deliberately I assume) no commensurate increase in Barge (no exhumers at the time) CPU... I remember scrounging around for a Photonic Co-Processor to try and get one on my Covetor. But the Exhumers made MLUs as ubiquitous as Mag Stabs on a Megathron or BCUs on a Raven. It makes sense to have choices of all upgrade, all tank or something in between reasonably viable - but at the moment the diiference between all upgrade and single upgrade with tank is too small IMHO leading to my CPU increase thoughts below.
For the Hulk specifically: The Hulk has more slots than the Covetor, it has to fit the same modules but lacks PG to do so (every shield mod needs PG after all.) It does get plenty of CPU of course, sufficient for a shield mod in each extra slot but no PG. I know that ships are balanced based on 'All Skills @ [5]' but, in general, there is a certain amount of flexibility to allow for slightly lower skills and downgraded meta modules. The MSE Hulk lacks that, because, sub T2, there is no difference in PG need between meta levels on shield mods (particularly the extender which is the largest single draw). I'd like to see the Hulk's PG boosted, it would make sense to increase it by 3MW, 1MW for each additional mid over the Covetor, but I'd be happy with 1.5MW, and just 1 MW would remove the need for fitting implants for a tank akin to baltec's.
For other Mining Barges/Exhumers: As anyone who's attempted to fit a Mackinaw knows, many of the ORE ships seem to run on 286s. The Mackinaw could, with the addition of 50TF of CPU, fit a pretty reasonable 17k EHP tank while still retaining a single harvester upgrade. with only 40TF it could run a DCII tank for about 22k EHP. The Covetor needs less to get a hulk style tank (and in doing so could encourage the tanking of Hulks) although obviously less hard. 25TF would be about ideal. The Retriever is in at least as bad a way needing a T2 co-processor just to fit a DC and EM ward amp + rig tank... not enough to stand up to Empire 'rats alone and only offering 7k EHP. The change of the Covetor to Mining Barge [4] in Tiericide perhaps mitigates this but it's currently going to be weeks before a miner can move to a more survivable ship. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
292
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 13:15:00 -
[1135] - Quote
good read there jacob... plus one from me... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 14:32:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:33k is enough Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage. 17000 x 3 = 51000 If they get two volleys: 51000 x 2 = 102000 I didn't know it was possible to fit a Hulk with 0% resist across the board.
|
Alara IonStorm
1985
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 14:41:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Plus 1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:33k is enough Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage. 17000 x 3 = 51000 If they get two volleys: 51000 x 2 = 102000 I didn't know it was possible to fit a Hulk with 0% resist across the board. Sometimes I think these are people who have the opposite hoping that if they post enough blatantly wrong information as cannon fodder the discussion will get drowned out.
Like the 10 guys who started separate GD threads on the issue calling for ridiculously unreasonable buffs.
If he can come up with a 17k Volley Maelstrom using reasonable hardware I take it all back and he revolutionized Alpha Fleets.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6090
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 14:44:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Sometimes I think these are people who have the opposite opinion hoping that if they post enough blatantly wrong information as cannon fodder the discussion will get drowned out with insults.
Like the 10 guys who started separate GD threads on the issue calling for ridiculously unreasonable buffs.
If he can come up with a 17k Volley Maelstrom using reasonable hardware I take it all back and he revolutionized Alpha Fleets. By the sound of it, it seems like he's making the assumption that he has a 100% chance of getting that 1% wrecking-blow 3+ù damage multiplierGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 14:46:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:If he can come up with a 17k Volley Maelstrom using reasonable hardware I take it all back and he revolutionized Alpha Fleets.
It doesn't have damage bonus. Use ship with damage bonus and overheat your guns. |
Alara IonStorm
1985
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 14:53:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:If he can come up with a 17k Volley Maelstrom using reasonable hardware I take it all back and he revolutionized Alpha Fleets. It doesn't have damage bonus. Use ship with damage bonus and overheat your guns. There are no 8 Gun Arty Ships with a Dmg Bonus and Overheating doesn't increase Dmg but Rof. |
|
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
31
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 15:00:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Overheating changes the damage multiplier? I thought it just changed the ROF?
Now, with the Orca unfitting trick brought to my awareness by the Boomerang instruction thread (and which hasn't yet been declared an exploit to my knowledge) allowing the use of high value modules in a suicide gank I can get about 12.5k volley out of a 'nado with Quake and a full rack of RF Gyros - and while three of those would take out baltec's fit the requirement for the Orca inside fitting range of all three makes it more than a little awkward to achieve (though, granted, not impossible). |
Alara IonStorm
1985
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 15:10:00 -
[1142] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:(and which hasn't yet been declared an exploit to my knowledge) http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/02/eve-online-fixes-boomerang-exploit/ |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 17:48:00 -
[1143] - Quote
[Hulk, totally reasonable] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I
Medium Cargohold Optimization II Medium Cargohold Optimization II Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Heavy Mining Drone II Warrior II
... I guess that will satisfy every one
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6092
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 18:22:00 -
[1144] - Quote
July Oumis wrote:... I guess that will satisfy every one No sentries? Weaksauce. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Whitehound
65
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 18:40:00 -
[1145] - Quote
July Oumis wrote:[Hulk, totally reasonable] ... ... I guess that will satisfy every one I would buy one. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 20:54:00 -
[1146] - Quote
That's boomerang itself, not the unfitting high value mods trick. |
Alara IonStorm
1986
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 21:10:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote: That's boomerang itself, not the unfitting high value mods trick.
What is this boomerang thing all about. I heard it exist but I never got the details on it. I don't gank or fly gank worthy targets so I never really paid attention. I just had heard they fixed it or whatever. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
147
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 22:14:00 -
[1148] - Quote
Plus 1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:[quote=baltec1]33k is enough[/quote
Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage
17000 x 3 = 5100
If they get two volleys
51000 x 2 = 102000 I didn't know it was possible to fit a Hulk with 0% resist across the board. While the numbers for those guns are WAY off, I would like to point something out (and people ALWAYS seem to do this when talking about tank vs dps of a ship
When someone mentions the EHP of a ship, they aren't talking about raw hit points. Resists are already factored in. So when someone says 'I do X dps' or 'I do x volley damage' you don't factor resists in after that, they're already factored into the ehp/tank stats on a ship.
If you have a 500 DPS tank on a ship with a 25% resist bonus, you still get your tank broken by 600 DPS. Same way that in that example with the poorly thought out volley damage numbers, you have a scenario where 2 ships with 1400s would instapop a hulk. Resists dont come into play here, they were already factored into the EHP, I promise you the hulk doesnt get 33k raw shields. |
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 22:35:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Plus 1 wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:[quote=baltec1]33k is enough[/quote
Full rack of 1400mms hit for 17k volley damage
17000 x 3 = 5100
If they get two volleys
51000 x 2 = 102000 I didn't know it was possible to fit a Hulk with 0% resist across the board. While the numbers for those guns are WAY off, I would like to point something out (and people ALWAYS seem to do this when talking about tank vs dps of a ship When someone mentions the EHP of a ship, they aren't talking about raw hit points. Resists are already factored in. So when someone says 'I do X dps' or 'I do x volley damage' you don't factor resists in after that, they're already factored into the ehp/tank stats on a ship. If you have a 500 DPS tank on a ship with a 25% resist bonus, you still get your tank broken by 600 DPS. Same way that in that example with the poorly thought out volley damage numbers, you have a scenario where 2 ships with 1400s would instapop a hulk. Resists dont come into play here, they were already factored into the EHP, I promise you the hulk doesnt get 33k raw shields. Yes, I know. I just want to watch someone who thinks a Nado does 17k alpha calculate how much that would be with a given resist.
Thanks for ruining it! |
Kreeia Dgore
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.15 04:58:00 -
[1150] - Quote
July Oumis wrote:[Hulk, totally reasonable] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Medium Cargohold Optimization II Medium Cargohold Optimization II Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Heavy Mining Drone II x 5 Warrior II x 5 ... I guess that will satisfy every one You guess right. That is, of course, if they add those 5 extra slots and a serious ammount of PG to the hull. I would love it though, this would pretty much solve all issues here. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1536
|
Posted - 2012.04.15 06:52:00 -
[1151] - Quote
Kreeia Dgore wrote:July Oumis wrote:[Hulk, totally reasonable] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal I Medium Cargohold Optimization II Medium Cargohold Optimization II Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Heavy Mining Drone II x 5 Warrior II x 5 ... I guess that will satisfy every one You guess right. That is, of course, if they add those 5 extra slots and a serious ammount of PG to the hull. I would love it though, this would pretty much solve all issues here.
I don't see why you aren't asking for 4 Expanded Cargoholds in the lows and another 5 Mod Strip Miner IIs.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.15 07:14:00 -
[1152] - Quote
I don't understand. There are plenty of fits that work for tanking (while mining and killing them) null sec rats.
When it comes to getting ganked in high sec i agree. But no excuses for null sec. An increase in PG would do it. Maybe an extra slot or two.
If CCP is going to put a stress on mining (which they are), make it easier/more efficient |
July Oumis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 09:22:00 -
[1153] - Quote
I'd say 215 PG and 435 CPU would be fine. One more medslot could not hurt, too. Everything else is way too powerful. My "ironically taken serious fit" above is way to OP.
[Hulk, maybe ] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Experimental 10MN Afterburner Survey Scanner II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Mining Drone II x5 Warrior II x5
This fit would get 24k ehp, which is fine.
|
Whitehound
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 10:19:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Azemar wrote:I don't understand. There are plenty of fits that work for tanking (while mining and killing them) null sec rats.
When it comes to getting ganked in high sec i agree. But no excuses for null sec. An increase in PG would do it. Maybe an extra slot or two.
If CCP is going to put a stress on mining (which they are), make it easier/more efficient One squad of miners can easily mine down several belts. I think it is efficient or else we would need more asteroids. I have not seen anyone complaining yet that one has to mine an entire week to get the materials needed for a battleship in. So if no one is complaining then there is no need to do anything about it. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1114
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 14:21:00 -
[1155] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:9sec rof with 1400's
yea, thats not possible, not by a long shot.
Ho yes it is but I'll not tell you or you know what -I must agree on the fact that it's not exactly 9sec but at this point and with concord exploit like make it bounce belts or planets with an alt, even with 12sec (my worst rof with arty) I still can (under certain circumstances) put 3 holes on your 33k or whatever hulk that will not survive anyway.
You guys can keep coming with whatever argument you want, who ever here already lost and gank hulks knows this ship is unworthy and the best result of a very bad mining design activity and ships for. An industry that doesn't need at any point mining barges or mining skills is another "fail" from my point of view that doesn't brings any simplicity but rather another "different" way of doing "things".
Fact is that small point plus small point and like it or not all details have a huge impact on many eve players and the game economy, now please care to explain me how good was for the game mining with guns (rogue drones) how good is for the game mining barges align/warp slower than an orca full cargo/rigs expanders and having a total ehp of a badly fitted T1 cruiser.
Care to explain how good this is for low sec and null sec when all the belts in null/low are empty of mining ships or just a noob that is about to go like pouf because he needs to learn the lesson "the hard way".
Whatever mining barges EHP they have and lol fittings we can discuss fact is that mining carier is badly designed from the bottom to the top and that survivability argument is just another symptom of it. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1114
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 14:37:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:Overheating changes the damage multiplier? I thought it just changed the ROF? Now, with the Orca unfitting trick brought to my awareness by the Boomerang instruction thread (and which hasn't yet been declared an exploit to my knowledge) allowing the use of high value modules in a suicide gank I can get about 12.5k volley out of a 'nado with Quake and a full rack of RF Gyros - and while three of those would take out baltec's fit the requirement for the Orca inside fitting range of all three makes it more than a little awkward to achieve (though, granted, not impossible).
Arty/Rails/Beams (tachs can't say I don't use those and not in game to check) is ROF
Short range GUNS get +15% dmg
Missiles get launchers ROF
Quite simple, if you gank in 0.5 you have about 16/18 sec delay before concord target/jam/scram you, this is not enough to put 2 holes unless you make concord bounce with an alt, at this point you won your second shot even with 12sec rof.
Now hopefully for everyone in the game not every miner fits hulks like baltec, because high sec miners just don't shoot a pair of belt rats at 1M plus bounty leaving loot behind because isk/h is better in null... Blahblahblah isk/h with Baltec mining barge you loose all will of living if you ever want to mine 10m3 of rocks.
By the way minerals at this point shouldn't even be available in null/low since nobody mines those. So where come from all those trillions minerals in the market? -cheatengine? |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
809
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:32:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Is this the like and get likes thread? |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
297
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:54:00 -
[1158] - Quote
is now... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
TECH iii MINNING SHIPS! |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
810
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 17:18:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Fair enough. D like my likes now please. |
Whitehound
161
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 19:08:00 -
[1160] - Quote
I'd rather have hates than likes. Likes are gay. No more crappy expansions! - Raise A Little Hell |
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Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 19:26:00 -
[1161] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[ Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship.
Thou irl you dont have somali pirates crashing into those with small gunboats just for the lolz .... irl they would either die or get killed soon after by the "authorities". In eve the police sinks your ship but doesent give a **** that your just going to hop into another one and continue. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Squirrel Horde Habitat Against Humanity
81
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:32:00 -
[1162] - Quote
It has a tank bonus, indicating it was meant to tank something.
Dude on the first page made a point about fitting 1600s on an iteron...which is of course daft. But, spending less money than the hulk still gets you the occator, which can still fit a better shield tank than the hulk. (point of fact, it has two mid slots) |
FT Diomedes
Factio Paucorum
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:13:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:It has a tank bonus, indicating it was meant to tank something.
Yes, it was meant to tank 0.0 rats. Which it can do just fine.
What do you want it to be able to tank?
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Jeicam Mmis
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:45:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Nick Bison wrote:Yeah, Hulk is a T2 BC sized ship with a sub-cruiser tank. Fricken pathetic and should be addressed.
I do not advocate making Exhumers with super-tanks but at least something respectable for their size, cost and tech level.
orca boosted rokh \0/ |
Balori Sarn
Corp40562
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 12:03:00 -
[1165] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote: this is why miners are so hilarious to kill
since you don't understand ship fitting you start fitting inapproporiate deadspace mods
during the first great hulk jihad it was hilarious how many pubbies we convinced to fit a-type shield reps to resist ganks
Oh look, the dim wit troll can't help but make generalizations and use personal pronouns, assuming he knows everything about everyone. Keep proving you're one of the sheep. That's a good boy. its funny you call other people sheep while you're complaining your grazing is insufficently safe from predators highsec miners are, without exception, dimwitted idiots who deserve the destruction meeted out to them
there's other reasons too why ppl mine in hi-sec u kno
personally i know numerous players that left nullsec because they were just fed up with all the (annoying) politics involved there. They just get along their business in hi-sec and wormholes now. BTW drop the attitude and insults your puberty is showing |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
95
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 20:55:00 -
[1166] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:never minned a day in my life other than that mission that made me mine once...
so i was looking at the hulk today and was wondering why there are so many high sec bear tears... when i noticed it had this awesome resist bonus profile but it cant fit a bloody LSE?!?!??!
either fix the damn ship ccp or add the 5th subsystem to TIII ships that are indy/minning based... shesh!
Now you know why it was choosen for Hulkageddon, if yer lookin for easy kills that can be racked up in a contest there is no easier kill than a hulk miner.
I'm an American, English is my second language... |
Naradius
Chaos Calling
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 23:35:00 -
[1167] - Quote
Nura Taron wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nura Taron wrote:I'm not a miner, but it always confused me that a t2 ship of that size has such pathetic tanks. All the tank fits I've seen for them have small shield boosters. Hulk are definitely not frigates CCP. I think they should get more tank and keep in mind I'm a lot more likely to be killing a hulk than driving one.
[ Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship. Supertankers would have a better tank if their job required them to be in an asteroid belt full of hostile battleships.
Errmmm, you mean, like the better tank they fit going through The Strait of Hormuz, or Gulf of Aden, to defend themselves from those evil pirates and Iranians...oh please, you just made the biggest mistake in EVE and compared it to IRL!! LOL
If you want to compare to RL, then whenever you mine take a military escort with you to beat back those hostile battleships...you noob! "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 08:18:00 -
[1168] - Quote
talking about IRL in an internet spaceships game. seriously?
also: I love miner tears threads. +1 for 51 pages full of QQ |
destiny2
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 11:23:00 -
[1169] - Quote
problem with highsec miners is they dont fit a tank and then they get ship scanned and die. because they didnt fit a tank.
and then complain about it because it was their fault they didnt have a tank
if you fly a retreiver might as well just use a battleship to mine in. as they mine as fast as a retreiver does. only difference being is low cargo space solution ? alt in a hauler or GSC all over the place :) |
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