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Poena Loveless
Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.14 23:28:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Poena Loveless on 14/12/2008 23:34:34 Falcon isn't overpowered. It dies just as much, if not more than any other force recon. Compared to other recons they actually have a huge disadvantage when they are the ones jumping into a camp/bubble so its all balanced. (edit: to clarify, all the other recons are made for 25-40km range so they are utilizing their greatest potential even if they don't like the situation, the falcon's range bonus is worthless when all your targets are 20-40km from you)
A major thing people forget to mention is that a falcon at < 100km is instapopped by 90% of the hacs on market and it takes time (if cloaked) and/or great risk (if uncloaked and mwd'ing) to get out to 200km in a fight that isnt a staged camp.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.14 23:34:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 14/12/2008 18:51:53 A properly fit Cerberus with 73 gravmetric sensor strength is kinda efficient as well.
If done right we are talking 10s flight time out to 200km.
High enough sensor strenght to require multiple jammers for any reasonable chance of success and afaik most falcons dont fit multiple gravmetric jammers these days :)
Really? I always do. Being able to jam another falcon is kinda handy y'know? -- 249km locking? |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.14 23:38:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Hyveres Edited by: Hyveres on 14/12/2008 18:51:53 A properly fit Cerberus with 73 gravmetric sensor strength is kinda efficient as well.
If done right we are talking 10s flight time out to 200km.
High enough sensor strenght to require multiple jammers for any reasonable chance of success and afaik most falcons dont fit multiple gravmetric jammers these days :)
How do you get your heavies to 20Km/s?
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Lea Re
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.12.15 00:38:00 -
[34]
cerb/apoc/rokh/covops/your own falcon,rook or scorp thats the solution for you
and yeah, you cant get heavies up to 20km/s =] its more like 11 which stil makes it a decent anti falcon platform, at least enough to scare it off with 2k volley
just please dont EVER ask for any other nerf cause I will personally steal nerfbat from CCP and use it for other purposes.
some1 said something really wise in this topic already: enemy gang sacrificed a ship to fit jamming role, you can do the same with ecm counter
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.15 01:24:00 -
[35]
ECM is the only hard CC in Eve - as such it's really annoying to people it's used on since it just totally shuts you down.
I think it's fine as it is, since ECM ships can't actually kill anything on their own (well, most of the time anyway).
If I was to tinker with it though, here's what I'd do:
1) Make all the ECM cycles stop immediately when the jamming ship cloaks, and 2) Change ECCM so it gives a flat ECM resistance (maybe 40% for T1 and 50% for T2, each jammer would have to roll against each ECCM on each cycle in addition to the sensor strength check in for it to successfully jam)
Alternately, you could just make damps not suck. Undoing the scripting nerf imposed on damps back with Trinity would make Gallente ECM ships worth using in their intended role again. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa!
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.12.15 04:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia i think the best solution would be to buff arties and give the tempest +200% sensor strength
just buff arties, it already has plenty of mids to eccm up. my dual eccmed apoc does well enough
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SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.15 05:13:00 -
[37]
No missiles, no jam...
I wonder if just banning Caldari would make the whiners stfu.
Probably not. |
Aleus Stygian
Failed Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.15 09:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Poena Loveless Falcon isn't overpowered. It dies just as much, if not more than any other force recon. Compared to other recons they actually have a huge disadvantage when they are the ones jumping into a camp/bubble so its all balanced. (edit: to clarify, all the other recons are made for 25-40km range so they are utilizing their greatest potential even if they don't like the situation, the falcon's range bonus is worthless when all your targets are 20-40km from you)
A major thing people forget to mention is that a falcon at < 100km is instapopped by 90% of the hacs on market and it takes time (if cloaked) and/or great risk (if uncloaked and mwd'ing) to get out to 200km in a fight that isnt a staged camp.
You know, nothing puts perspective on this like knowing what it is like to be mainly a Recon and sniper pilot in battles both with and against Falcons where the main bulk of the opposition is made up of battleships, and where they blob quite a lot. You should try it sometimes.
I don't know about you, but personally, I find it to be incredibly stupid taking a Force Recon into an engagement like that. Because don't fool yourself; you get primaried to Hell most all of the time. And this is especially pronounced in the case of Rapiers and Pilgrims nowadays, because of the types of EWAR they employ and because they make relatively frail targets. And it gets even worse when you have to play docking games, when you're seriously outnumbered and when the enemy is out to hurt you and not doing things for killmails...
The Falcon's huge range gives it a ridiculously great advantage in one manner, while its frailty and inflexibility in other departments really makes it useless for anything but being exploited for this advantage in the most focused and, as some would say, cowardly manner. It's a badly designed ship, with a badly designed function, whose issues are exacerbated and made so outstanding by inconsiderate design.
It's also quite ugly.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.15 10:50:00 -
[39]
Fix the Arazu (+10% level strength & falloff bonus), give stealth bombers a bit more CPU so they can use 2 missile rigs and a T2 BCU with T2 launchers: problem solved, tbh.
When a ship's countering ships are broken, more nerfs are not the answer. Fix broken ships to correct imbalances, don't break the working ones as well.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.12.15 11:01:00 -
[40]
Buff Arazu/Lachesis. I dont think our cruiser-sized gangs can take care of one slow, plated, sniping battleship to counter a falcon OR use a loleagle with loldamage at the falcons optimal range.
Sure, your typical bs blob can go with enough sniper BS and support!
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Billy Merc
Amarr Born-2-Kill Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 11:11:00 -
[41]
CCP really do need to address the ECM plague...its becomming a joke really.
But i think the solution lies not in nerfing ECM, as this is pretty much all falcons have got...they dont do no damage, have no drone bays...unlike the arazu, pilgrim, rapier u would be flat out killing yourself in a falcon let alone anything else.
I propose that ECM remains the way it is, and the ECCM gets the boost. If u are willing to sacrifice a mid slot...u deserve an element of immunity to ECM...what some dont realize now is...even if ure sensor strength is higher than the falcons jam strength (and its not hard...most larger ships have this right out the door with no eccm) you really have little chance of escapong a jam cycle...as they are so long...all a falcon needs is 2-3 cycles and most ships are dead.
ECCM NEEDS a boost bad, in its current form, u are still not immune...jam cycles are WAY to *****in long, ECCM needs to provide better protection than it does now + shorten successful jam cycles....i for one would even be happy if this new kind of eccm cost more cap / fitting req's on top of the addition sacrifice of a med slot.
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Botschafter Mollari
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2008.12.15 11:21:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Captator Edited by: Captator on 14/12/2008 16:55:54 [Apocalypse, antifalcon] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I True Sansha Adaptive Nano Plating Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Energy Locus Coordinator I Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
~700 dps at 50km, 1.7k alpha with 330 dps at 193km, 87k EHP in gang
Doesn't lose too much performance over a standard plated close range fleet BS, and can switch out quickly to force a falcon off.
edit: needs 3% grid implant to fit
signed
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2008.12.15 12:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Billy Merc CCP really do need to address the ECM plague...its becomming a joke really.
...even if ure sensor strength is higher than the falcons jam strength (and its not hard...most larger ships have this right out the door with no eccm) you really have little chance of escapong a jam cycle...as they are so long...all a falcon needs is 2-3 cycles and most ships are dead.
I wish my falcon killed ships after 2-3 jam cycles, oh the KMs I would be proud to boast...
Seriously, ECM can only be used in a balanced group - so in your balanced group fit counter measures (the easiest is to have a group flying all the same race).
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Gabriel Karade
Celtic Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.15 12:46:00 -
[44]
Well, you could always change ECM so that you don't loose your target locks, but can't activate any modules on the target, i.e. all your target locks go back to the 'acquiring' stage of the cycle (flashing brackets) while your jammed, but are restored as soon as the jam cycle fails.
Other than that, a range boost to remote ECCM would be nice; 21km is a bit low.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.15 13:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 15/12/2008 12:49:57
Well, you could always change ECM so that you don't loose your target locks, but can't activate any modules on the target, i.e. all your target locks go back to the 'acquiring' stage of the cycle (flashing brackets) while your jammed, but are restored as soon as the jam cycle fails.
Other than that, a range boost to remote ECCM would be nice; 24km is a bit low.
Well this is certainly true. At the very least, it should be affected by the EW range skills for optimal/falloff. Logistics ships should get range bonuses for projected ECCM as well IMO.
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Stefan F
Enrave Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.15 13:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Billy Merc CCP really do need to address the ECM plague...its becomming a joke really.
But i think the solution lies not in nerfing ECM, as this is pretty much all falcons have got...they dont do no damage, have no drone bays...unlike the arazu, pilgrim, rapier u would be flat out killing yourself in a falcon let alone anything else.
I propose that ECM remains the way it is, and the ECCM gets the boost. If u are willing to sacrifice a mid slot...u deserve an element of immunity to ECM...what some dont realize now is...even if ure sensor strength is higher than the falcons jam strength (and its not hard...most larger ships have this right out the door with no eccm) you really have little chance of escapong a jam cycle...as they are so long...all a falcon needs is 2-3 cycles and most ships are dead.
ECCM NEEDS a boost bad, in its current form, u are still not immune...jam cycles are WAY to *****in long, ECCM needs to provide better protection than it does now + shorten successful jam cycles....i for one would even be happy if this new kind of eccm cost more cap / fitting req's on top of the addition sacrifice of a med slot.
Can you please also boost my sensor booster so it makes me invulnerable for damping? Can you please also boost my tracking computer to make me invulnerable for tracking disruptors? Can you plese also boost my invul field so it really makes me invulnerable for incoming dps?
Already the ECCM mod is the most effective counter mod there is, and then you can still overload it!
Personally i fly a falcon sometimes but it isnt that great. If you face a decent opponent you have to warp out very often disabling you from the fight. If i know all my opponents would fit a single ECCM I'd leave it at home and jump into a BS that could both tank and put out DPS, two things the falcon can't.
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Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.15 13:56:00 -
[47]
Id just like to see the falcons' strength bonus toned down a bit, and the rook lose its range bonus, making the falcon the long range choice, and the rook the short range roaming choice.
if they then gave the rook a 50m^2 dronebay, id be loving it :) |
Seishi Maru
Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 14:56:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 15/12/2008 14:56:51
Originally by: Stefan F It's not the falcon that is the problem, it is your unwillingness to fit ECCM. Because you rather have a second sensorbooster instead. It is all about choices as it should be. Just learn to play the game instead of whining on the forums.
really so the speed Issue was also unwillingness of people to fly rapiers? The nos nerf was unwillingness of people to Fly AC ships with plates? The Dual MWD Raven issues as unwillingness of people to fly faster than torps could reach? The cyno activated DD was unwillingnes of predicting the future?
Shut up!
Unbalanced things MUST be nerfed, or counters MUst be added. that is fundamental to game BALANCE.
No ship, not a single sub capital ship is even remotely as powerful or game breaking as the falcon. Not even 20 km/s vagas were.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.15 15:21:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Seishi Maru Edited by: Seishi Maru on 15/12/2008 14:56:51
Originally by: Stefan F It's not the falcon that is the problem, it is your unwillingness to fit ECCM. Because you rather have a second sensorbooster instead. It is all about choices as it should be. Just learn to play the game instead of whining on the forums.
really so the speed Issue was also unwillingness of people to fly rapiers? The nos nerf was unwillingness of people to Fly AC ships with plates? The Dual MWD Raven issues as unwillingness of people to fly faster than torps could reach? The cyno activated DD was unwillingnes of predicting the future?
Shut up!
Unbalanced things MUST be nerfed, or counters MUst be added. that is fundamental to game BALANCE.
No ship, not a single sub capital ship is even remotely as powerful or game breaking as the falcon. Not even 20 km/s vagas were.
So suggest some god damb counters then. And no, a single midslot item that makes everything bad go away for ever is not a "counter". It's just a lazy way to pretend that the whole ECM class doesn't exist. No; just no. Every ship should be "overpowered" versus at least one class of ships. Every ship should be vulnerable to at least one other class. The main problem with the falcon seems to be the perception that it's countering ships need work. That's why I suggested that Stealthbombers and Gallante Recons - both of which are generally accepted as needing some love - be boosted. Both of these ships should be very deadly as anti-Falcon ships (particularly in tandmem), and with some minor tweaks, they would be. Then instead of 2 broken and one freshly nerfed (and we all know that when CCP nerf something, they nerf it to the point of uselessness for at least 18 months) ship types, we have 3 awesome shiptypes. Surely that's a better outcome? Doesn't that seem a better outcome to you?
tl;dr: Don't nerf Falcons: let Falcons be awesome.
But let Arazu/Lachesis/Stealthbombers be awesome too.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.15 15:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: tarin adur
Originally by: Malcanis Interceptors are not really suited for an antifalcon role. Speed is not now nor was it ever a particularly good counter.
The ship you are looking for is here.
Oh? Falcon's greatest strenght is range, and a ceptor has the means to close that distance quickly, far faster then a cov ops can i'd think.
Most ceptors can't fly faster than those cruise missiles to be honest.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.15 15:58:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Malcanis So suggest some god damb counters then. And no, a single midslot item that makes everything bad go away for ever is not a "counter". It's just a lazy way to pretend that the whole ECM class doesn't exist. No; just no. Every ship should be "overpowered" versus at least one class of ships. Every ship should be vulnerable to at least one other class. The main problem with the falcon seems to be the perception that it's countering ships need work. That's why I suggested that Stealthbombers and Gallante Recons - both of which are generally accepted as needing some love - be boosted. Both of these ships should be very deadly as anti-Falcon ships (particularly in tandmem), and with some minor tweaks, they would be. Then instead of 2 broken and one freshly nerfed (and we all know that when CCP nerf something, they nerf it to the point of uselessness for at least 18 months) ship types, we have 3 awesome shiptypes. Surely that's a better outcome? Doesn't that seem a better outcome to you?
tl;dr: Don't nerf Falcons: let Falcons be awesome.
But let Arazu/Lachesis/Stealthbombers be awesome too.
While I concur with most everything you say here, I am forced to wonder why people rally so hard against the idea of bringing anti-ecm ship. Everyone KNOWS there will be falcons in larger engagments. Everyone knows of at least ONE counter (another falcon). Yet, rarely do you see ECM cover on both sides of an engagement, and it's even LESS frequent that you see a dedicated anti-falcon ship on the field.
The Raven for example is inarguably incredibly well suited to drive falcons from the field. Even without BCS in an armor tanked ship you can deliver enough alpha to kill a non plated falcon in a handful of shots, and with a high native sensor strength the effectiveness of ECCM cannot be denied. The Rokh is another solid choice, with the same basic strengths as the raven though it achieves it's end through rapid ROF rather than high alpha strikes.
The problem isn't that counters don't exist, it seems that people are simply unwilling to use them. I can sympathize to an extent - taking a battleship and reducing it's tank or damage capabilities just to counter a single ship class can be bothersome, especially when you happen to be on an op where the opposition doesn't field the very thing you're trying to counter. But, given just how many falcons are on the field these days, to bring no counter of your own is just plain silly. Falcons aren't brutally effective just because they are inheritly powerful - it's largely because the players in the game allow them to be by routinely bringing nothing to counter them.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.12.15 16:34:00 -
[52]
I wouldn't call it a plague j/k
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FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2008.12.15 16:36:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
really so the speed Issue was also unwillingness of people to fly rapiers? The nos nerf was unwillingness of people to Fly AC ships with plates? The Dual MWD Raven issues as unwillingness of people to fly faster than torps could reach? The cyno activated DD was unwillingnes of predicting the future?
Shut up!
Yea fair analysis there. Completely see where your coming from, because fitting an incredibly low skilled midslot module is exactly the same as training for a minnie recon or autocannons.
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Absolom Hues
Gallente The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 17:13:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
While I concur with most everything you say here, I am forced to wonder why people rally so hard against the idea of bringing anti-ecm ship. Everyone KNOWS there will be falcons in larger engagments. Everyone knows of at least ONE counter (another falcon). Yet, rarely do you see ECM cover on both sides of an engagement, and it's even LESS frequent that you see a dedicated anti-falcon ship on the field.
The Raven for example is inarguably incredibly well suited to drive falcons from the field. Even without BCS in an armor tanked ship you can deliver enough alpha to kill a non plated falcon in a handful of shots, and with a high native sensor strength the effectiveness of ECCM cannot be denied. The Rokh is another solid choice, with the same basic strengths as the raven though it achieves it's end through rapid ROF rather than high alpha strikes.
The problem isn't that counters don't exist, it seems that people are simply unwilling to use them. I can sympathize to an extent - taking a battleship and reducing it's tank or damage capabilities just to counter a single ship class can be bothersome, especially when you happen to be on an op where the opposition doesn't field the very thing you're trying to counter. But, given just how many falcons are on the field these days, to bring no counter of your own is just plain silly. Falcons aren't brutally effective just because they are inheritly powerful - it's largely because the players in the game allow them to be by routinely bringing nothing to counter them.
I couldn't agree more! As a Gallente pilot, it became very tiresome to join a fleet of 6-10 pilots only to find that nobody else was flying an ecm ship. I never blamed the enemy for having them nor did I believe they were overpowered... we just weren't prepared. So I decided to skill Caldari and now often fly a Scorpion specifically fit for anti-falcon operations. I may not be the highest damage dealer now... but our fleet operations turn out much more favorably than before. ___
Doing what's right isn't always the easiest thing... it's just right.
[url=http://vva.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=44410] [img]http://vva.evekb.co.uk/sig.php/44410/simple/signatu |
Red zeon
Caldari Circle of Shadows Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.15 17:21:00 -
[55]
for the first, the range on the falcon is like whine that they can jam from 130km, then 150km, and then they started becoming 180km, and now 200km, tomorrow 230km? for the first, youd need commander jammers for the 200km range and range rigs and such, that would be more for 1jammer than the ship, so dont count that the jammer got commander ecm jammers fitted, why cant we agree on 150km since that sound good, most often when uive encountered falcons they have been 100km sinc the warp to 100, or even 150km in some cases.
enought offtopic from me, but i can honestly say that i have ransomed a falcon in my crow for 90mil (recieved the money) at a planet when i was solo roaming. but even tho ive switched solo roams to af post QR, i agree that ceptors
for example now crow got 12 grav strength, i agree it should be lifted to 16 and maybe give another frigate skill bonus, 5% boost to eccm modules (even if i recently trained for a falcon) ====== * Your signature file is too large. Please note: we allow signature files no larger than 400x120 pixels - Fallout |
Dimitryy
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Posted - 2008.12.15 17:44:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Malcanis Interceptors are not really suited for an antifalcon role. Speed is not now nor was it ever a particularly good counter.
The ship you are looking for is here.
lol i clicked and got a url fail. :)
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Ged Satti
Satti Research and Development Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.15 17:47:00 -
[57]
Ok, let's look at some numbers real quick. If you take what I would call an average falcon pilot with a max jam fit (Recon 4, Signal Dispersion 4, T2 ECMs (faction, not multispec), T1 rigs and 3 Dispersion Amp IIs) they'll have a jam strength of around 12.7. Against a BS, say a Raven with a sensor strength of 22, they have 12.7/22 = 57.7% chance to jam per ECM. Two ECMs on that one target give a 82% chance to jam (if my math is right), so they'll probably be jammed at that point.
Now take that same Raven pilot and throw on just the basic tech I non-named ECCM. Their sensor strength goes from 22 to 39.6, and the chance of jamming with one jammer goes from 57.7% to 37.1%. 2 take it up to 53%, and 3 take it to 75%.
For a good chance of jamming that Raven the pilot now has to have 3 Caldari jammers fit (not terribly likely, but possible) , and if they fail and the Raven has cruises fitted instead of torps they're pretty much a anti-falcon platform right there ready to go. All it cost the Raven was 1 mid slot and the DPS difference between cruise and torps to counter the horrible plague of Falcons. Yes, there's still a chance the Raven will be jammed, but for a low-moderate degradation of one ship in the squad you're in a much better position to completely counter a falcon.
I'm no PVP expert, this is just how it appears to me. If I missed something please let me know (and I'm sure you will )
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FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2008.12.15 18:03:00 -
[58]
Ged Satti, you deserve a cookie Why dont people believe in ECCM as an effective counter?
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Cristl
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Posted - 2008.12.15 18:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman Ged Satti, you deserve a cookie Why dont people believe in ECCM as an effective counter?
Well, an ECCM takes up a midslot, and has no other benefits to the ship besides reducing the effect of a module that *may* be used against it.
Imagine there was a midslot module that gave you increased immunity to enemy target painters or remote sensor dampeners (but with no native bonus like decrease sig or increased scan res) would many people fit it?
Midslots are at a premium; it's definitely hard to justify devoting one to a module whose sole purpose is to reduce (not even negate) the effect of one ewar module that may possibly be used against you.
I can fly falcons (currently with recon 5, ewar skills at 4) and they are are *too* focused on what they do. I can pretty much permajam 5 enemy HACs from about 220km away for example. That's too big an effect for a single ship tbh.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 18:20:00 -
[60]
Is this another "I can't adapt at the game so plz nerf / boost this"-thread?
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
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