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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:34:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Tarminic
I don't think you have a factual basis for your assumption that CCP is being dishonest when it comes to this issue. You're obviously assuming that CCP isn't telling the truth without any basis other than assumptions you've made about their corporate culture.
What facts exactly would change your opinion? Are you capable of trusting anyone other than yourself staring directly at CCP's market/bug/petition logs?
For 100% trust, nope mate. Only my own eyes can give me 100% trust. I may choose to say something is probably true, and stop thinking about it. But for complete trust, I need to see myself.
So all in all, no facts they present to me will make me trust CCP completely, but I might get to a point where I think probability of them telling the truth is high enough for me to stop worrying about it. I am far from that point atm, as you might be able to tell :)
PS. Employees aren't necessarily Devs. Take a look at the list and titles yourself. It has about 80 people listed (GM's excluded).
Again, I see that you care, but WHY DO YOU CARE?
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elric gallach
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:37:00 -
[92]
Diagoras confirmed the exploit as being possible (code wise) from at least February 2007, however they are still investigating further to see exactly when it became possible.
Issler pointed out that this was a strange bug to have been introduced this recently since there werenĘt any changes with POS reactions since the time span noted in the answers to the previous questions.
Diagoras explained that February 2007 was the earliest date they had that they are able to check the code for the exploit that hadnĘt been changed in a way that would affect this, part of the investigation will be to confirm how long it has been possible to use this exploit.
So it is possible that it was 2004
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KAELA MENSHA
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:40:00 -
[93]
4. How much contraband resources were produced through this exploit, and how big a share of the overall production is this?
EyjoG stated that the exact numbers werenĘt known currently, but will be part of the entire investigation. Diagoras provided the rough estimates: Roughly 35% of the Ferrogel market. He noted that that is a very rough and an early figure that needs further analysis.
EyjoG split this into two parts: The impact on the economy is significant; overall they are expecting this generated a few trillion isk. As a comparison, the daily trade on average in EVE through the market for all items is 3 trillion isk.
So itĘs significant, but not catastrophic.
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Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:40:00 -
[94]
Nice preliminary report, it'll be interesting to see what further information / updates will follow. Also: pity to see this thread derailing with similar amounts of torches, pitchforks and knuckledragging as the first one. Oh well, such is Eve.
Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
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Innocent II
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:42:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Sebea
Originally by: Innocent II
The isk goes from one person to another. Guilty or innocent, kill them both. This is not like laws where you check if he is guilty or not, this is like the doctor curing a sickness, he cuts it out of a body with a knife.
Yes, and that bs you sold, yea, it was paid for with isk gained from this exploit, so your gone too i guess ...IDIOT
Here, I give you 40b isk. There you go. Nothing wrong with that isk right? CCP can see the big things and know who is getting the isk.
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elric gallach
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:44:00 -
[96]
EyjoG split this into two parts: The impact on the economy is significant; overall they are expecting this generated a few trillion isk. As a comparison, the daily trade on average in EVE through the market for all items is 3 trillion isk.
So itĘs significant, but not catastrophic.
Issler asked if these expectations are assuming that the dates currently thought to be the first major use of the exploit? EyjoG answered yes.
But there not sure of the dates (just a guess really)
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:44:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Innocent II You mistake me. I do not want justice, I want punishment. I do not want proofs, I want bodies. We can get reports and stuff later. It will take a year to fix, and as that year is passed the damage grows. CCP knows enough now for some things they have not done. The isk goes from one person to another. Guilty or innocent, kill them both. This is not like laws where you check if he is guilty or not, this is like the doctor curing a sickness, he cuts it out of a body with a knife.
I want punishment too, but based of reasonable evidence of wrong doing. How far are you willing to go with you vengeance? The exploiters themselves, yes, they should be punished, and no doubt they will. Those benefiting directly and knowingly, yes, they should be punished as well, because even though they didn't exploit themselves, they had a choice. Those benefiting directly but unknowingly, yes, they should be punished as well, but to a far lesser degree, because they could and probably should have known, but were too trusting. Those who unknowingly and indirectly benefited are not to be punished however, because they had no way of knowing that they were benefiting from an exploit and had no choice. There is a limit to how far justice can reasonably apply vengeance. I draw the line at choice. Those who had the choice, either to participate, or to investigate suspicious behaviour should be punished. Those who didn't shouldn't. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:46:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Innocent II
Originally by: Sebea
Originally by: Innocent II
The isk goes from one person to another. Guilty or innocent, kill them both. This is not like laws where you check if he is guilty or not, this is like the doctor curing a sickness, he cuts it out of a body with a knife.
Yes, and that bs you sold, yea, it was paid for with isk gained from this exploit, so your gone too i guess ...IDIOT
Here, I give you 40b isk. There you go. Nothing wrong with that isk right? CCP can see the big things and know who is getting the isk.
This is an absurd argument - it's not like this exploit created PURE isk which was then distributed by cackling overlords. It created a T2 component which - according to the CSM Meeting Minutes - was used mostly in-house to produce T2 modules and ships. So you're going to ban everyone that ever purchased a T2 module or ship from that guy? Ban anyone who ever used or benefited from ill-gotten corporate funds? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Baske
Space-Bar
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:53:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Sebea
Again, I see that you care, but WHY DO YOU CARE?
Irrelevant question, ignored.
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:54:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 15/12/2008 23:55:20
Originally by: elric gallach EyjoG split this into two parts: The impact on the economy is significant; overall they are expecting this generated a few trillion isk. As a comparison, the daily trade on average in EVE through the market for all items is 3 trillion isk.
So itĘs significant, but not catastrophic.
Issler asked if these expectations are assuming that the dates currently thought to be the first major use of the exploit? EyjoG answered yes.
But there not sure of the dates (just a guess really)
It just doesn't add up. At one point its 35% of all ferrogel production. At another point its a few trillion. I don't think 35% of all ferrogel production over a period of several months (at least) is just a few trillion. The impact is substantial, and we can only hope the EVE economy is efficient enough to pick up the direct short-fall. It might well be.
The impact to the trust in a fair market (or a fair game, seeing as how central the market is to EVE) however I would regard as rather catastrophic. As an indication, ask yourself the following question: where did all the Isk go? 35% of all ferrogel production didn't just stay in a wallet somewhere. It was used to finance other things. What will now happen to those investments? Will these be taken out of the economy as well? Is the EVE economy efficient enough to handle that as well? What about if that Isk was used to turn it into RL money? Can this then be termed as fraudulent behaviour?
Still a lot of questions to be answered, still a lot of digging to be done. This is a good start, but we're not there yet. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:54:00 -
[101]
I never heard about this until the news broke. I manufacture a lot; I've used a large amount of ferrogel, and I have no idea how much of it was produced illegitimately, if any. Are there seriously people who think someone in my situation should be punished? --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:57:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 15/12/2008 23:56:46
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro I never heard about this until the news broke. I manufacture a lot; I've used a large amount of ferrogel, and I have no idea how much of it was produced illegitimately, if any. Are there seriously people who think someone in my situation should be punished?
No, if there is no way you could have reasonably known that it was illegitimately produced, then you should not be punished. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:57:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Sebea
Again, I see that you care, but WHY DO YOU CARE?
Irrelevant question, ignored.
How in the hell is it irrelevant?
Your demanding all these answers, well, a fair question in return is why do you care?
Or don't you have an answer to that?
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Astro Glyde
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Posted - 2008.12.15 23:57:00 -
[104]
One question that I haven't seen raised or addressed here;
Of the 70+ accounts that were banned, how much material was seized by virtue of the bans or other 'clean up' efforts? In terms of ISK or materials (ships, minerals, etc.)?
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elric gallach
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:00:00 -
[105]
Q When did it start
A WE dont know
Q How much impact will this have on the game
A Were not sure (we dont know when it started).
Q Who was involved.
A Not sure (were still trying to find out when it started)
Q What do you know ?
A The codes a bl**dy mess, nobody can make heads or tails out of it, oh gawd wheres the coffee
This thread was getting to serious needed humour
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Zelios Tallen
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:03:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Sebea
Originally by: Baske
Originally by: Sebea
Again, I see that you care, but WHY DO YOU CARE?
Irrelevant question, ignored.
How in the hell is it irrelevant?
Your demanding all these answers, well, a fair question in return is why do you care?
Or don't you have an answer to that?
Because they cheat, is it not sufficient ?
Do you really enjoy to play a game where cheaters can act freely ?
The question is simple, those who were directly involved or those who were aware of the origin of the ISKs they get should be found. It's hard to do, but it is a matter of trust. And trust is necessary that's all...
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Callib Gor'Karrithe
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:04:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Callib Gor''Karrithe on 16/12/2008 00:04:47 So the main consensus from CCP at every one of these points is essentially, "We can't be bothered to introduce any sort of version control system to our production process."
As illustrated here:
Quote: Vuk noted that every big patch changes a lot of unrelated things, so the bug could have been introduced at any time.
And to CCP: Don't come up with some half-assed excuse for this. Coming from another developer, there is quite simply no excuse. This isn't a case of "oops, I slipped." This is just flat-out stupid. IF you guys actually aren't using a version control system, then it's a miracle you haven't completely pooched your environment yet. That being said, it's pretty damn obvious you can not only point out exactly when this change took place, but who the exact dev was who committed the change. Either that, or CCP is the true example of the "Wild, Wild West" of programming.
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Antar Neem
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:05:00 -
[108]
What is the first lesson a noob learns: "Trust no one"
Seems the community has learned that lessons well. Anything less than complete and verifiable disclosure is inadequate.
Virtual characters have no "Right to privacy".
If they do, Sponge Bob has grounds for many lawsuits.
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Evelgrivion
Athanasius Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:14:00 -
[109]
Ever heard of the saying "Throwing the baby out with the bath water"?
CCP is trying to get to the bottom of things, and is even going so far as to say the results of what they have figured out so far, with millions of log entries to sort through yet because of the backup mediums.
It's a good thing CCP doesn't listen to some people. If it were up to them, we'd already be back to Exodus day 1.
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Innocent II
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:15:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane I want punishment too, but based of reasonable evidence of wrong doing. How far are you willing to go with you vengeance? The exploiters themselves, yes, they should be punished, and no doubt they will. Those benefiting directly and knowingly, yes, they should be punished as well, because even though they didn't exploit themselves, they had a choice. Those benefiting directly but unknowingly, yes, they should be punished as well, but to a far lesser degree, because they could and probably should have known, but were too trusting. Those who unknowingly and indirectly benefited are not to be punished however, because they had no way of knowing that they were benefiting from an exploit and had no choice. There is a limit to how far justice can reasonably apply vengeance. I draw the line at choice. Those who had the choice, either to participate, or to investigate suspicious behaviour should be punished. Those who didn't shouldn't.
You say you want to be fair. The exploiters friends might be innocent and were given this isk or got it some way. What about the people they kill with their isk that they use to buy Titans and MS and T2 BPO. A titan can kill 100 BS in one bullet. What about MS hot drop of you. If there is a mistake, it is better to happen to these people than alliances and corps that were never touching this. A long time of thinking about this is unfair to all the others in EvE. CCP must be fast, this is not a thing fixed by time.
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Demeterus
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:22:00 -
[111]
It is quite comforting to know, tbh, that CCP will ignore most of the poasters in these threads about this issue, simply because these poasters have little incling as to what they are demanding.
1) They have no idea about the amount of data we're talking about here. We're talking more data than the tax returns of midsized countries here.
2) They have no idea about the nature of datamining - and how damned uncertain it is without 20/20 hindsight and an exact search criterion - an exact search criterion which will in fact exclude many, many, MANY, of those who may have directly benefited from this exploit. This is why governments all over the world - including the US one with it's Echelon - are piling up vast quantities of data that need to be examined manually.
I mean, how do you account for a cheater that instead of selling illegal ferrogel for cash in Jita decided to sell it to an unsuspecting mate for 10k for 100.000 units and a Pith B-Type Shield boost amplifier? To the system it looks like 'OMG this guy dumped the price of ferrogel! It does not see the exchange of the module, because that is going through another system.
3) They have no idea of the social ramifications of a game like eve where the data does not follow a fixed, straight algorithmic line through the system, but where the data is instead fuzzy, illogical, contradictory, or just plain incomprehensible.
Again, I'm glad CCP won't listen to the poasters demanding blood and a complete census of every byte in the Eve databases. If they did, you can bet that three months down the road, when Jita becomes a slideshow with 10 people in local, you'd hear the same people screaming blue murder about why CCP had diverted all the 300 developers to manually go through every single record dating back to 2001 when they should have fixed lag. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs? |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:23:00 -
[112]
I'm encouraged by the CSM being involved in the communication process - this looks a good step forward. CCP seem to be doing as much as they can to manage this particular crisis (they'll be another crisis next year, there always is).
Ultimately what it all boils down to is that other players, when presented with an opportunity chose to cheat and there's not a great deal you can do about human nature, but still better players (the CSM) questioned the system itself, held it accountable and CCP responded - and that's a leap forward in EVE's evolution.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Atlas Oracle
Minmatar Colossus Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:31:00 -
[113]
so basically, nothing
pure fail
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Cardinal Harvest
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:38:00 -
[114]
This is sad. The thing u are covering exploiter tracks is pathetic. I hope u will end up ur money hunger soon.
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Cierejai
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:39:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Ghoest Why dont they make a public announcment as to which corps had their POS removed? That is not at adds with the policy.
It actually is, read the first couple of posts again.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:44:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Sebea Edited by: Sebea on 15/12/2008 23:33:03
Originally by: Ephemeron If somebody impregnated your teenage daughter, wouldn't you want to know who the father is?
WOW, thats totally off topic and has....stunner coming....absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS GAME, OR THIS EXPLOIT.
failure
Edit: you know, i was going to leave it at that, but it takes a special kind of ****** to make that stretch and find some connection between your bastard grandchild and video game cheating
It has absolutely everything to do with the game. The "daughter" is the economy, players are the fathers of economy. Now some unknown comes in and puts something in the economy, something that isn't supposed to be there, something that has wide spread and far reaching consequences for your daughters "economy" future, as well as your own, since you are in it together. Somebody f@#$s with you and your economy.
People got every right to be mad and demand answer.
You, Sebea, are one of the very few who "don't get it" and you act like a spoiled child. Just be quiet, or at least present your arguments in decent manner.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:50:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Ephemeron If somebody impregnated your teenage daughter, wouldn't you want to know who the father is?
Good lord, are you serious or just deranged? How can a game exploit and what you mentioned even be on the same page? You need to quit gaming, sell your computer and get a life, this instant. Seriously.
Some guys/girls just take games far too seriously. It's a game, sure someone cheated, and they got what they deserved. Who the f*** cares about the rest?
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Saladin
Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:52:00 -
[118]
Does CCP not have mirrors or backups of all the expansions/patches? Could they not load the first expansion that introduced POS's on Multiplicity (or another test server) and see if the exploit is reproducible there?
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:52:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Sebea on 16/12/2008 00:52:23
Originally by: Ephemeron must be trolling
I was gonna respond, but Ancy got to it first
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:52:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Ephemeron You, Sebea, are one of the very few who "don't get it" and you act like a spoiled child. Just be quiet, or at least present your arguments in decent manner.
Then please, enlighten us, as to what it is we "don't get".
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
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